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johnny quest
01-26-2006, 16:50
ok, i really dont want any speeches on "just leave them alone and they will leave you alone". what i really want is some input on the extractor, that yellow hypodermic on steroids that is supposed to be da shizzle for snake bite, bee stings and such. anybody ever use one?

Footslogger
01-26-2006, 16:57
I was still working in EMS when they hit the scene. The concept had merit but the biggest problem I remember was that in order to be effective you have to apply the extractor really soon after the victim is invenomated. Otherwise all you're gonna do is give yourself a big hicky. You'd probably be better off in the long term by applying a restrictive tourniquet and getting the victim to a health care facility as soon as possible.

'Slogger

johnny quest
01-26-2006, 17:02
yeah, i think the tourniquet has gotten a bad name....
properly applied it works. but i always felt the extractor was more of a all alone, no help in sight kind of thing. maybe that is what attracted me to it.

The Cheat
01-26-2006, 17:08
search on "extractor" to read a few older threads on this.

saimyoji
01-26-2006, 17:51
NEVER USE A TORNIQUETTE IF YOU ARE NOT BLEEDING TO DEATH!!!

You will cause more damage to the limb than the venom will before you can get to the hospital. If you were bitten by the type of snake that kills before you can get medical attention, a torniquette won't save you. Anyway, those snakes don't live along the trail.

Copperheads and rattlers are the only venomous snakes you'll encounter, neither is so venomous that you can't get medical attention in a timely manner.

Footslogger
01-26-2006, 18:12
[quote=saimyoji]NEVER USE A TORNIQUETTE IF YOU ARE NOT BLEEDING TO DEATH!!!
========================================
Pretty strong language. Not consistent with what I was taught and what I understand the current thinking to be in terms of venemous snakes. We're talking about a restrictive band and not the type of tourniquet used to totally stop blood flow from a severed artery.

Guess I never should have used the word tourniquet in my earlier post.

'Slogger

Heater
01-26-2006, 18:14
NEVER USE A TORNIQUETTE IF YOU ARE NOT BLEEDING TO DEATH!!!

You will cause more damage to the limb than the venom will before you can get to the hospital. If you were bitten by the type of snake that kills before you can get medical attention, a torniquette won't save you. Anyway, those snakes don't live along the trail.

Copperheads and rattlers are the only venomous snakes you'll encounter, neither is so venomous that you can't get medical attention in a timely manner.

Do you have some sources for tis info? Please post them if you do.

BW2006
01-26-2006, 18:31
Are there any people that actually get bit while thru hiking the AT?

Footslogger
01-26-2006, 18:49
Are there any people that actually get bit while thru hiking the AT?
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I've never seen a report that lists victims of snake bites on the AT but the opportunity is sure there, especially in PA. For the most part you'd really have to provoke a snake to actually get bitten though because the majority of them are laying out in the open and can be avoided.

'Slogger

saimyoji
01-26-2006, 19:11
[quote=saimyoji]NEVER USE A TORNIQUETTE IF YOU ARE NOT BLEEDING TO DEATH!!!
========================================
Pretty strong language. Not consistent with what I was taught and what I understand the current thinking to be in terms of venemous snakes. We're talking about a restrictive band and not the type of tourniquet used to totally stop blood flow from a severed artery.

Guess I never should have used the word tourniquet in my earlier post.

'Slogger
Gotcha. I agree, applying pressure just above (towards the heart) the bite (restrictive band, tight gauze bandage, etc.) is SOP for cytotoxic venomous snake bites. When you wrote torniquette I imagined complete stoppage of blood flow...not a good idea, read below.


Many neurotoxic venomous snakes will kill you without immediate medical attention regardless of what you do, as they affect the heart and diaphragm contractions.

Here's a link, I know, you have to trust the gov...

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/995_snakes.html

http://www.fotosaves.com.ar/FotosReptiles/FotosReptiles.html

"WHAT TO DO IN CASE OF A SNAKE BYTE
- Wash the wound but DO NOT MAKE A TORNIQUETTE. Do not cut off the circulation to the arm or leg where the bite has occured. If a torniquette is made the posion will concentrate and may seriously affect the arm or leg. Do not make cuts nor suck on the wound. Clean it and get to the nearest medical center. The patient should avoid excercise and should drink some water. Above all he must keep calm.
The only possible treatment is the application of the proper antivenom, specific to the species of snake that caused the bite. For cases when the exact species is not know there are bivalent and polivalent antivenoms that work for the more abundant species of the area.
If possible remember the markings on the back of the snake. Take one minute to make a drawing of it. Does it have a narrow neck? Does it have a rattle on the tail? If it has coloured rings carefully note down the colour secuence - this separates false corals from the true coral. If the snake is dead bring it with you but take extreme precautions as contact with the fangs remains highly dangerous.
Time is important. Do not delay. Find out which is the nearest hospital and if it has a stock of antivenom, which should not be outdated. Applying antivenom is a delicate medical procedure due to possible side effects so should be done in the Intesive Care unit by a toxicologist doctor. Advise the hospital of your impending arrival, and for the toxicologist to be called at once.
Remember that some grass snakes may also bite, but this does not mean they are venemous. However, some of them are mildly venomous, so do not underestimate the situation, especially in the case of small children. Also a snake bite can cause Tetanus, so always get to a hospital.
- In the city of Buenos Aires the specialized center for snake bite treatment is the Hospital Francisco J. Muñiz.
Address: Uspallata 2272 - Enter the hospital and go straight to the Emergency ward ("Guardia"). Announce what has happened so that you get immediate attention. They will surely direct you to Ward 9 (Sala 9), SECOND FLOOR (up only ONE flight of steps). This ward tends to cases of Travel Medicine, Tropical Deseases and Regional illnesses (Medicina del Viajero, Medicina Tropical y Enfermedades Regionales). Phones: 4304-2180, 4304-3380 &4305-3161 Extension (Interno) 231 (Sala 9). The single most important recommendation issued by this hospital is: DO NOT MAKE TORNIQUETTES.
(The better known Instituto Malbrán receives specimens for identification but does not tend to pacients!)"

As far as what snake species are found along the AT...

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.1043265/k.8270/Rattlesnakes.htm

Click around to find the other species of snakes found on the AT.

I'm no expert, just have lots of experience with these things.

max patch
01-26-2006, 20:27
ok, i really dont want any speeches on "just leave them alone and they will leave you alone". what i really want is some input on the extractor, that yellow hypodermic on steroids that is supposed to be da shizzle for snake bite, bee stings and such. anybody ever use one?

I carried one, figured it might help and certainly wouldn't hurt. Its probably a waste of money and weight...but...if you should happen to get bit in the middle of nowhere I bet you'll be glad you had it.

I did use it when I got stung by a bee. It pulled a big drop of something out of my arm.

Never seen anyone else carry one.

johnny quest
01-27-2006, 09:05
i had a friend here...a doctor, tell me that if you had access to a car and could get to a hospital within the hour it made no sense to mess with the wound. being able to identify the snake was paramount. but he said if he was hiking and a half day from a hospital (timewise) AND especially if the snake had not been identified that it wouldnt hurt to be able to suck some of the poison out. he asked me if it would be very handy. i said yes. he said that was the big thing.

icemanat95
01-27-2006, 09:50
My hiking buddy and I blundered into 4 rattlesnakes at the same time along a rocky ledge about 30 minutes north of the Peter's Mountain Shelter. Pretty scary stuff. We were just hiking along minding our own business, when all of a sudden that buzzing rattle broke out. three snakes were sunning themselves along a rocky shelf about 4 feet high and only three or four feet away from the trailbed. We were probably not too far out of striking range of the three snakes on the shelf (if we were outside of striking range at all). The fourth snake was a big one sunning itself across the trail at the very end of the ledge area. We worked our way slowly and carefully down the slope a bit (being wary of other hidden snakes) and made our way around the snakes. We waited for a while because the shelter had been full and we expected more hikers to come along shortly, but after 15 or twenty minutes with no sign of other hikers, we moved along and figured that they would find the snakes for themselves.

Almost stepped on a Copperhead in Virginia as well. It defies the laws of physics how a 180 pound man carrying a 40 pound pack, in the process of stepping down, could spot the snake and reverse direction after his weight had already been commited to forward motion. I should have stomped right down on that snake and it should have reared up and bitten me, but it didn't happen that way.

Back on topic....a Sawyer Extractor probably wouldn't do much good against a snakebite. Those fangs are pretty long and they shove that venow down in deep. The restrictor band won't have any effect on that and the extractor probably cannot be gotten to fast enough to suck the poison out before it gets swept downstream in the blood.

For beestings and spider bites, it might be a different matter.

Lugnut
01-27-2006, 14:21
I carry one. Never heard of anyone having to use one but I figure since it weighs nothing and just might work I'll keep it handy.

Jack Tarlin
01-27-2006, 16:13
BW:

I know of at least three folks who've been bitten by poisonous snakes on the AT. One involved a copperhead, two were rattlers. (The rattler bites were at the Mohican Center in New Jersey and in Connecticut; the Mohican incident did not involve a thru-hiker).

At least one of these bites allegedly came about when the victim had been
handling/harassing the snake, which happens more often than you think.

Appreciate them from a safe distance, and refrain from picking them up!

All this being said, your chances of getting bitten by a poisonous snake on the A.T. are minute. There is a far greater chance of your getting bitten or injured by your family dog.

johnny quest
01-27-2006, 17:27
thanks to every one weighing in on this thread. but can i please reiterate that im not asking:
1. is it smart to handle snakes. (i know it isnt...outside of certain religious rites)
2. what my chances are of being snakebit on the a.t. (trust me...if there is a snake on the a.t. who isnt already booked...i will have a run in with him. its my fate)
3. if tourniquets are in or out this season (i like a nice spring green one with matching handbag)

my question is about the extractor and its usefullness. i would love to hear from those that have actually used it. should this be in gear reviews?

saimyoji
01-27-2006, 18:47
http://www.trailspace.com/forums/backcountry/topics/27272.html

johnny quest
01-27-2006, 19:03
thanks saimyoji. on that thread i found this:
http://www.nols.edu/wmi/curriculum_updates/archive/041105_sawyer.shtml

but my question to them eggheads is this:"evacuating the patient by carrying, walking only if it's necessary." whos going to carry my hairy ass????

hikerjohnd
01-27-2006, 19:22
thanks to every one weighing in on this thread. but can i please reiterate that im not asking:
1. is it smart to handle snakes. (i know it isnt...outside of certain religious rites)
2. what my chances are of being snakebit on the a.t. (trust me...if there is a snake on the a.t. who isnt already booked...i will have a run in with him. its my fate)
3. if tourniquets are in or out this season (i like a nice spring green one with matching handbag)

my question is about the extractor and its usefullness. i would love to hear from those that have actually used it. should this be in gear reviews?

I bought one a few years ago, never had the chance to use it. I had the opportunity to hike with a doctor who really got a gooood laugh at the product. Assuming you had the extractor in your hand at the time of the strike, and assuming you were able to apply it within 3 seconds of the strike, the volume of poisons that could be extracted would be negligible at best. Leave the sucking of poisons to the heroes in the movies - but it's your money - HYOH!

Footslogger
01-27-2006, 19:29
[quote=hikerjohnd]I Assuming you had the extractor in your hand at the time of the strike, and assuming you were able to apply it within 3 seconds of the strike, the volume of poisons that could be extracted would be negligible at best.
=======================================
That's the point I was trying to make in my earlier post.

'Slogger

johnny quest
01-30-2006, 13:41
this has been an interesting thread for me. thanks for all that responded. it makes me want to start a new one. i think i will.

stupe
01-30-2006, 19:42
I Dogpiled "sawyer extractor reviews" and got this link, among others. It paints a pretty dismal picture for the gadget.
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/reviews/detail/122
Out of four reviews, only one was positive. The others said it helped with insect bites. The positive one sounded a little hokey to me. The reviewer claimed that he had used the device on a friend on two occasions, and the friend made full recovery both times. Sounds like an unlucky friend. And the reviewers nickname was "timberrattlesnake89", which gave me a feeling he was selling snake oil, I don't know why.

Jack Tarlin
01-30-2006, 20:16
I agree with Stupe on this one. I've heard and reead similar things, i.e. when used properly, it may help with insect bites and stings, but with snakes, instead of fussing around with gadgets, your best bet is probably to get to expert medical attention as quickly as possible.

Mouse
01-30-2006, 21:50
I get the impression from outside reading that doctors are not exactly agreed on what the best first aid for a snake bite is, hence the contradictory official statements quoted. I do gather that there seems a growing trend towards recommending skipping band and extraction etc. and just getting to medical treatment where antivenom may be administered but it does not seem unanimous.