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Malto
04-14-2017, 18:29
Under what circumstances is it OK to camping DIRECTLY on the trail, not right next to it but on it. This is a general trail etiquette question not specific to the AT.

egilbe
04-14-2017, 18:40
Emergencies?

illabelle
04-14-2017, 18:47
Emergencies?

Emergency seems like the only reasonable answer, but...
An emergency for some people might be "it got dark" or "I'm too tired to take another step."
And even though it was an "emergency" to them, I bet they'd get heavily criticized.

Sarcasm the elf
04-14-2017, 18:50
Under what circumstances is it OK to camping DIRECTLY on the trail, not right next to it but on it. This is a general trail etiquette question not specific to the AT.

I feel like this question has a back story to it. Do tell! :D

Personally I've only done it once, it was at night in bad weather and felt like the wisest of the available options and safer than continuing on.

salsi
04-14-2017, 19:00
I Think it would really depend on each individual situation where the need may arise.

rafe
04-14-2017, 19:13
Just my two cents. If it's past sunset and a low-traffic situation, not much harm done. I've done it once or twice.

Malto
04-14-2017, 19:16
I feel like this question has a back story to it. Do tell! :D

Personally I've only done it once, it was at night in bad weather and felt like the wisest of the available options and safer than continuing on.

I posted this because of a discussion on a PCT facebook page, not so much the actual post below but of some of the comments. I have camped directly on the trail before but under very specific conditions. In general I thought it was pretty clear trail etiquette but I am really wondering if it is as clear as I thought it was hence the question.

39044

rafe
04-14-2017, 19:19
One ought not make a habit of it, probably...:cool:

Wyoming
04-14-2017, 19:27
Well the emergency thing makes sense but perhaps it is more related to absolutely having to stop and there being no other possible place to do it but the trail.

I have camped literally 2 ft from the AT 2 times. Both times in severe weather conditions when I was really cold and wet and started to shiver and at that point I treat it like an emergency and just set the tent up, strip down and get in dry stuff and in the sleeping bag. But no one other than the guy I was hiking with one of those times even knew I did it and he did the same thing about 30 yards from me. On the PCT there are lots of tent spots which are just feet from the trail.

On the AZT I slept in the trail one time also. I was running out a big water haul and since my last possible water hole was dry I knew I was going to run out the next day. So I walked deep into the night until I was really tired and just set the tent up where the trail crested a climb and then headed down. But I was up before light and moving. That day was a tough one as I ran out of water a couple of hours before I made the next water source and was suffering bad leg cramps due to dehydration.

Anish has stated that she sometimes just goes to sleep right on the trail or next to it when she can go no further. I have also walked around tents set up right on the AT several times.

Dogwood
04-14-2017, 19:38
Little used trails or during off seasons or in emergencies. Even then as Rafe said it shouldn't be made a habit. From the sound of it she should have better planned her day. Southern Cali PCT is ripe with places to erect a 1p MSR Hubba. She/he made it worse because this hiker slept in expecting others to hike around her during prime high peak PCT usage in SoCal and looks to be located in a narrow single track rocky sloped thread area.

JPritch
04-14-2017, 20:06
How about hanging your bear bag directly over the empty tent pad next to yours? Yeah, not cool.

1azarus
04-14-2017, 20:32
i've heard the trail described as a wildlife highway at night, animals liking the easy walking as much as humans do... i don't know how true that is but it has always discouraged me from hanging my hammock across the trail, even when stopping well after dark with an early start planned!!! so, hammock parallel to and right next to the trail, without a tarp -- done that a handful of times, leaving plenty of passing room. across the trail? never...

Sarcasm the elf
04-14-2017, 20:41
How about hanging your bear bag directly over the empty tent pad next to yours? Yeah, not cool.

That can be considered acceptable, provided that a bear trap is also set underneath the food. :rolleyes:

Tipi Walter
04-14-2017, 20:55
It all depends on the trail. Some trails see no traffic and especially trails that haven't been maintained in the last 10+ years. I camped right on the Basin Lead trail a couple months ago so I'd be close to Basin Gap and a quick morning shove off for Warrior's Passage trail.

But it's a rule for me to avoid trail camping, mainly because I value my tent and don't want humans tripping over it and breaking the poles at night. Often times the terrain is so bad that the trail is the only open, level spot for miles---but you have to suck it up and move on until you find a spot off the trail. Simple trail manners and good discipline.

In an emergency of course all bets are off---camp wherever you want. (Like during the Blizzard of '93).

Miner
04-14-2017, 21:03
Short of an major emergency, never? Running out of daylight doesn't count as you can always keep hiking in the dark until something decent comes up. Didn't bring a flashlight/headlamp like a few on this forum advocate? A lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on mine.

As others noted above, animals like using trails at night since its easier to use then pushing through the brush. Amazing how they sound almost human in that regard. I've seen and heard Elk, deer, and bears along the trail at night, just to mention some of the larger ones.

As someone who likes to get on the trail early in the morning, one of my most annoying moments I had hiking the PCT was coming across 2 tarptents set up on the trail when it was cut into the mountainside. There was no easy way around them. Their excuse was there was no level place to camp. Well, 15 minutes past them, I found a site. So I have little tolerance for this. I'm more tolerant if they are just camped next to the trail since I can get by them without issue.

rafe
04-14-2017, 21:27
Even with a headlamp, sometimes it's just not safe or smart to keep walking. A small tent on the trail ought not constitute an emergency for any other hiker that happens to come by. If it did that'd be pretty rude.

You say "15 minutes later, I found a site" -- but the hikers in question most likely didn't know. I can think of several instances where I ran out of steam or out of daylight without reaching the shelter or campsite I was aiming for. Only to discover, the next morning, that it was a quarter mile from where I'd made camp.

It's not something I'd encourage. But it's not the end of the world either. Pull off the trail if at all possible.

Tipi Walter
04-14-2017, 21:28
Yes, camping on the trail is bad form. Once was backpacking down the Slickrock Creek trail near Lower Falls and some retardants set up their big tarp camps directly on the trail overlooking the falls. Prime real estate of course but only for idiots. I had to dip and weave and squat for a duck walk and do a belly crawl to get under all their guylines. Didn't say anything cuz they were clueless and possibly suffering from tarp-induced retardation and moral deficiency disease---MDD.

Lone Wolf
04-14-2017, 21:31
i've done it quite a bit.

rickb
04-14-2017, 21:38
i've done it quite a bit.

By Lakes of the Clouds hut?

Tipi Walter
04-14-2017, 21:39
Even with a headlamp, sometimes it's just not safe or smart to keep walking. A small tent on the trail ought not constitute an emergency for any other hiker that happens to come by. If it did that'd be pretty rude.

You say "15 minutes later, I found a site" -- but the hikers in question most likely didn't know. I can think of several instances where I ran out of steam or out of daylight without reaching the shelter or campsite I was aiming for. Only to discover, the next morning, that it was a quarter mile from where I'd made camp.

It's not something I'd encourage. But it's not the end of the world either. Pull off the trail if at all possible.

A tent on a trail is not an emergency for another hiker until they trip over you and snap a couple poles. THEN it becomes an emergency.

And there's a backpacking rule I have found to be true more times than not---Do not stop at the first campsite you find---go ahead a couple hundred feet and you'll probably find something much better. I learned this the hard way by setting up camps at so-so spots and in the morning shoving off and finding much better camps just a little bit further on.

If someone does set up on a trail, they should not be surprised to have their guylines or tents disfigured by stumbling bipeds at 3am.

rocketsocks
04-14-2017, 21:39
I don't believe I've ever parked in the middle of the road, why would I.

Kaptainkriz
04-14-2017, 21:41
Like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63boA2czpaU

i've heard the trail described as a wildlife highway at night, animals liking the easy walking as much as humans do... i don't know how true that is but it has always discouraged me from hanging my hammock across the trail, even when stopping well after dark with an early start planned!!! so, hammock parallel to and right next to the trail, without a tarp -- done that a handful of times, leaving plenty of passing room. across the trail? never...

Sarcasm the elf
04-14-2017, 21:41
Even with a headlamp, sometimes it's just not safe or smart to keep walking. A small tent on the trail ought not constitute an emergency for any other hiker that happens to come by. If it did that'd be pretty rude.

You say "15 minutes later, I found a site" -- but the hikers in question most likely didn't know. I can think of several instances where I ran out of steam or out of daylight without reaching the shelter or campsite I was aiming for. Only to discover, the next morning, that it was a quarter mile from where I'd made camp.

It's not something I'd encourage. But it's not the end of the world either. Pull off the trail if at all possible.

Agreed. Camping on trail shouldn't be seen as an acceptable practice in normal circumstancesp, but aside from being rude doesn't cause any actual damage or problems, it's likely the best "bad option" when things go wrong.

Beyond that, any time a hiker gets hurt, disoriented, or "lost," setting up on trail and staying put until morning is the safest and most prudent decision. No need for hikers to be a hero and push on if doing could make the situation worse.

Sarcasm the elf
04-14-2017, 21:43
I don't believe I've ever parked in the middle of the road, why would I.

I don't believe I've ever seen a hiker go down the trail at 35mph either.

Well, except Malto, but that's not the point. :cool:

1azarus
04-14-2017, 21:46
A tent on a trail is not an emergency for another hiker until they trip over you and snap a couple poles. THEN it becomes an emergency.

And there's a backpacking rule I have found to be true more times than not---Do not stop at the first campsite you find---go ahead a couple hundred feet and you'll probably find something much better. I learned this the hard way by setting up camps at so-so spots and in the morning shoving off and finding much better camps just a little bit further on.

If someone does set up on a trail, they should not be surprised to have their guylines or tents disfigured by stumbling bipeds at 3am.

...and after you've gone "just a little bit further on" you need to be willing, at least on occasion, to turn around to camp in that pretty good place you just passed!!! ...a couple of nights ago I came to a pretty stream just before what my map showed as a little lake, which I had planned to camp at. I was tempted to camp at the stream, but convinced myself to walk "a bit farther..." after a couple of hundred feet, with no lake in sight, I want back to my stream site. Next morning I found that lake -- surrounded by brambles and bypassed by the trail leaving quite a bit of margin to protect its shoreline.

Tipi Walter
04-14-2017, 21:46
I don't believe I've ever parked in the middle of the road, why would I.

Exactly.


Like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63boA2czpaU

It's amazing how many coyote prints I see in the snow all around my tent and along the trail by my tent during winter trips in the snow. These guys investigate everything. One time I was camping on top of Flats Mt and during the night a black bear came by and took a nice healthy dump right next to my tent while I was sleeping.

Lone Wolf
04-14-2017, 21:47
By Lakes of the Clouds hut?

that was about 10 feet off the trail

Tipi Walter
04-14-2017, 21:53
Another consideration is illegal bicyclists using the trail as their personal downhill racetrack. What if you're camping on the trail and wake up past sunrise with a bicyclist coming downhill at 30mph and not stopping? Point is, camping on the trail makes you more vulnerable.

Greenlight
04-14-2017, 21:54
The Knobstone Trail in southern Indiana is a 60 miler where a lot of the "illegal" established camps are right on the trail. It is still considered bad form to put up tents, start a fire and such. But if I was hiking thru I'd take in stride.


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imscotty
04-14-2017, 22:28
On the PCT? I don't understand it. The camping opportunities are plentiful. It is easy enough to find a spot adjacent to the trail if you want to be found.

I'll cowboy camp next to the trail on a nice night when it is clear. I don't want to infringe on other people's experience so I tend to do this after sunset and get up at the crack of dawn. If I am setting up my hammock I try to get far enough off trail to be out of sight.

fiddlehead
04-15-2017, 00:07
Definition of stealth camping: "one tent stake on the trail"

39049

I've done it directly on trail in the Wind River Range in March.
Hadn't seen another hiker for a few days and it was a nice spot with little to no snow. (It was also dark and I was up at dawn and gone)

rocketsocks
04-15-2017, 01:23
I don't sleep where I poop :D

Hikingjim
04-15-2017, 08:11
Not ideal, but when I've passed people camping on the trail it doesn't really bother me much. As long as they're not leaving a trace and they just got stuck there

In addition to bears, a lot of trails up here are moose highways. Even if it was allowed, I wouldn't be doing it

Bronk
04-15-2017, 11:11
I see few situations where it would be necessary to set up a tent on the footpath itself...most times it would be easy to set up a tent at least 5 or 10 feet away...though sometimes if the trail is on the side of a steep hill that may be your only option. Of course this would likely block the footpath. I've set up my tent right next to the trail a number of times, but never actually on the footpath.

Tipi Walter
04-15-2017, 11:36
I don't sleep where I poop :D

Exactly. If horseback riders allow their horses to poop directly on the trail, why shouldn't backpackers also poop directly on the trail and leave the mess for the horsemen???????

Spirit Walker
04-15-2017, 11:41
The fact that most trails are wildlife highways, especially out west, would keep me from setting up on the trail unless it was a real emergency. Getting run over by a deer, elk, moose or bear is not fun.

BrianLe
04-15-2017, 12:29
As Tipi Walter said... depends very much which trail, plus when and where on it.
Of course do this only in real need, but recognize that the volume of foot traffic on the AT isn't normal for trails in general.

The situation one might do this is when, for example it's raining or snowing hard, brush everywhere and/or sloping ground (typically both). Darkness falling fast. And you're not hiking on a summer weekend close to a popular trailhead (do factor in local hunting seasons too). So throw down right on the trail, but then set an alarm on your phone to wake up before it's light out and get your tent packed up and your butt on the trail by very early daylight.

Malto
04-15-2017, 12:34
I have setup directly on the trail (or where the trail may have been) several times but I also believe it very bad trail etiquette unless there is a dire emergency. I have done it on these situations:

1) It is well after dark.
2) I plan to leave before daylight.
3) It is in a remote area or time of year unlikely to get night runners or hikers.
4) There is a special circumstance.

What were those circumstances.
1) It was the only snow free patch for miles. I did this twice.
2) I got separated from the hiker that I was hiking with and had no clue if he was ahead or behind. I purposely setup up feet from the trail or in one case on the trail to keep him from hiking by me in the event he was behind and pushed into the night.

Couple other factors. No shelter was set up in any of these cases and there nobody for miles given the conditions on the trail at the time. In fact nobody ever saw me on the trail those nights.

So now that a full confession has been made here's my concern. I believe there is a whole group of hikers that don't know any better and would set up on trail because they can. I have seen it on multiple trails primarily because I start early and end late. In the case that I posted above, clearly she was in no hurry to clear the trail in the morning, it was getting hot when she started packing up. I believe this is one of many hiker 101 subjects that many take for granted but may not be commonly known. Burying food, proper disposal of poo etc.

I am thinking about hiking a long trail this year to raise awareness for basic hiking etiquette. Maybe a gofundme page since this would be an awareness hike.

RangerZ
04-15-2017, 13:25
Exactly. If horseback riders allow their horses to poop directly on the trail, why shouldn't backpackers also poop directly on the trail and leave the mess for the horsemen???????

I don't poop where I sleep but I have pre dug holes against middle of the night needs.

I have wondered on shared use trails why dog owners have to clean up but not horse owners.

Dogwood
04-15-2017, 13:58
The fact that most trails are wildlife highways, especially out west, would keep me from setting up on the trail unless it was a real emergency. Getting run over by a deer, elk, moose or bear is not fun.

On the PCT in SoCal rattlesnakes, mountain lions, fox, skunks, lizards, and coyotes use the trail to travel at night. Remember, the PCT is a multi use trail that experiences the occasional equestrian. Sectioning and thru-equestrians usually start their day very early particularly in SoCal.

On the PCT in SoCal which is where this picture was taken there are plenty of places to sleep OFF the trail particularly if you don't need a larger footprint like when setting up a tent. This hiker looks like they could have cowboy camped. They aren't using a cover over their Hubba. Weather was cooperating. There shouldn't have been a concern for high insect pressure. This is a case that sounds like the "bad situation" developed as result of BAD personal planning and ignorance resulting in some imposition. NO, you don't get to hike into the night deciding to camp in the middle of the trail on a rocky sloped single track section because your knees magically instantaneously felt sore. BS. This is similar to the hike a thon fast and light ULers/SULers(I'm one) and FKTers that impose themselves on others arriving at lean-to's or multiple site CS's with others already counting sheep in the after 10 p.m. and early a.m. hrs making a racket, shining lights, cooking, chatting it up, knocking on Tipi's Hilleberg looking for avocados, etc. Camp away from and respect others if you're hiking mega hrs throughout the night or doing a hike a thon.

Wyoming, no way would I camp directly within or partially on the AZT and CT tread or any trail that is multi use. MBers ride throughout the night on multi use trails.

TU Malto for, after all the complaining, your solutions.

Bronk
04-15-2017, 14:35
I don't poop where I sleep but I have pre dug holes against middle of the night needs.

I have wondered on shared use trails why dog owners have to clean up but not horse owners.

Bingo. One reason I hate trails that allow horses. No effort to clean up after them is ever made and they think nothing of leaving a five pound load of crap in the middle of the trail.

Greenlight
04-15-2017, 15:31
I don't sleep where I poop :D

[emoji13]


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Dogwood
04-15-2017, 16:33
Dog owners definitely don't always clean up after their dogs. Equestrians by far are more conscientious and responsible for their own and their animal's behavior than dog owners are about their and their dog's behavior. Rarely have I seen a dog owner bag, carry out, and then discard their dog's pooh in a garbage can after an overnight backpacking trip. In remote trail settings it's non existent to witness this dog owner behavior. I don't carry my dog's pooh out either but I take my dog(s) off trail away from water sources occasionally on a leash to do their biz. Sometimes they go;sometimes they do not...which is more that I need to be vigilantly responsible for while backpacking or hiking. I've only twice seen equestrians bag their horse's manure and carry it out which is saying something considering the size a horse normally defecates daily. Equestrians are far more conscientious of their animals consequences to water sources than dog owners. By far equestrian laws are adhered to more by equestrians than dog laws, such as leash laws, adhered to by dog owners.

Have seen a few equestrians with shovels or rakes removing horse or stock manure off the trail or away from campsite areas. Overall, this is a rarity.

Cat, dog, and human feces are smellier than horse manure. Fresh horse and stock urine pooled in the center of the trail in hot weather is not something I wish to smell or encounter. In cold weather skidding upon frozen yellowish puddles of stock urine ice is of little anticipated fun.

Dog and human feces, being that these species are carnivores and omnivores, are more likely to spread disease than horses which are herbivores. For example, dog and human feces are more likely to spread bacteria like E.coli and parasites to humans. Horse manure typically contains grass, hay, and grains. I don't like stepping in horse manure as much as anyone else but I'd rather step in grass, hay, and grain feces resembling clumps of wet grass if given the choice than smelly cat, dog, or human feces containing decomposing animal proteins and whatever else was consumed by these animals.

Bearleg
04-15-2017, 20:01
It's not ok to camp on the trail if it leads to the privy


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Tipi Walter
04-15-2017, 20:43
Bingo. One reason I hate trails that allow horses. No effort to clean up after them is ever made and they think nothing of leaving a five pound load of crap in the middle of the trail.

The biggest reason I hate horses on hiking trails is because the damage these 1,000 lb beasts with their steel hooves do to the treadway. This applies to the Southeast.

They step off narrow trails and create big divots thereby collapsing parts of the outer edge of the trail.

They churn up creek crossings into mud pits and turn muddy trails into quagmires almost impossible for a foot traveler to hike through. If you don't believe me go to the Mt Rogers backcountry and study horse damage in the Lewis Fork and Little Wilson Creek wilderness areas.

Plus, horses have not been indigenous to the North American continent for the last 10,000 years. Take note wildlife experts and invasive species experts.

Patriot76
04-15-2017, 21:24
Camping on the trail is an old emergency signal much like flashing lights with the hood up for a vehicle. I am from the old school of the early 70's backpacking, hunting, fishing, and a combination of the three. The only reason I would camp on the trail is if I can no longer help myself and need help. In this case I would try to stay awake and enjoy the shelter. If I found a camp on the trail I would stop to see if they are okay, or need help. This is a great way to educate the novice without causing conflict.

As far as dung in the wilderness, it is natural. I do not expect anyone to pack it out, it is a fertilizer. Removing it from the trail or within eyesight is a common courtesy. By the way, Native Americans counted on dung for their fires for cooking.

Elaikases
04-15-2017, 23:23
The Knobstone Trail in southern Indiana is a 60 miler where a lot of the "illegal" established camps are right on the trail. It is still considered bad form to put up tents, start a fire and such. But if I was hiking thru I'd take in stride.


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I noticed that about the approach trail to Springer Mountain as well.

Pony
04-16-2017, 04:18
I don't see a problem with it for the most part. I've done it several times. On July 4 2010 I camped right on top of the NY/NJ state line. Woke up at 5 and nobody noticed or cared. Honestly it's probably better than creating a spot that's not already trampled by people.

George
04-16-2017, 08:06
I am with LW on this one - I have done it many times, granted I am mostly far off season

glassman
04-16-2017, 08:18
Under what circumstances is it OK to camping DIRECTLY on the trail, not right next to it but on it. This is a general trail etiquette question not specific to the AT.
So the one time I came close to camping "on trail" was an attempt at a night hike that was a failure. We camped within 100 ft of trail.No I am not proud of this, but....... at the time it seemed what was best. The way I was ok with this decision was that we were super low impact camping.
When we left in am we made sure to LNT

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Elaikases
04-16-2017, 08:54
I posted this because of a discussion on a PCT facebook page, not so much the actual post below but of some of the comments. I have camped directly on the trail before but under very specific conditions. In general I thought it was pretty clear trail etiquette but I am really wondering if it is as clear as I thought it was hence the question.

39044

It is as clear as you thought. Some people.

Elaikases
04-16-2017, 09:02
That is, during times people are using a trail, you don't camp on it unless it is an emergency. There are AT campgrounds within 50' or less of the trail in Georgia. There are campgrounds in the "no camping" approach trail zone that are within 10' of the trail.

But, some people are just proud of whatever they do (like the one in the facebook post). So it doesn't matter to them.

Tipi Walter
04-16-2017, 10:11
Time to kill before my next trip so I might as well post some Almost-On-Trail Campsites I've used---

39053
This is right on the AT near Brown Fork Gap. Near the Brown Fork shelter but mercifully far away from the chortling idiots.

39054
This is also on the AT and south of Fontana near Walker Gap. Right on the trail but far enough from the Cable Gap shelter to avoid the howling monkey humans.

39055
This is in Peels Gap near Tate Gap on the BMT---right on the BMT.

39056
This is also on the BMT (thankfully few to none trail shelters on this trail) and right on the trail in Cold Spring Gap.

39057
This is a camp right on the Grassy Branch trail in the Citico wilderness.

39058
This is on the South Fork Citico trail.

39059
Finally, this is actually right in the middle of the trail---Basin Lead trail near Bald River wilderness in TN.

rocketsocks
04-16-2017, 10:18
Time to kill before my next trip so I might as well post some Almost-On-Trail Campsites I've used---

39053
This is right on the AT near Brown Fork Gap. Near the Brown Fork shelter but mercifully far away from the chortling idiots.

39054
This is also on the AT and south of Fontana near Walker Gap. Right on the trail but far enough from the Cable Gap shelter to avoid the howling monkey humans.

39055
This is in Peels Gap near Tate Gap on the BMT---right on the BMT.

39056
This is also on the BMT (thankfully few to none trail shelters on this trail) and right on the trail in Cold Spring Gap.

39057
This is a camp right on the Grassy Branch trail in the Citico wilderness.

39058
This is on the South Fork Citico trail.

39059
Finally, this is actually right in the middle of the trail---Basin Lead trail near Bald River wilderness in TN.All exceptable camp sites to me, though 5 and 7 need a little tidying-up :D
Not that I'm "a place for everything and everything in it's place" guy

rafe
04-16-2017, 10:37
Spelling Abuse Notification: exceptable is not acceptable.

Bronk
04-16-2017, 11:15
The biggest reason I hate horses on hiking trails is because the damage these 1,000 lb beasts with their steel hooves do to the treadway. I've been on trails where the trail looks like a ditch that is 1 to 2 feet deep because horses have damaged the treadway and it when it rains water flows and washes it out further.

rafe
04-16-2017, 11:54
One of my two transgressions...

Months later at a campsite in the Hundred Mile Wilderness, I met the hiker who had passed me on the trail that night.

http://terrapinphoto.com/whiteblaze/roan.jpg

rocketsocks
04-16-2017, 12:18
Spelling Abuse Notification: exceptable is not acceptable.thank yew :)

English Stu
04-16-2017, 14:46
In the 100 mile wilderness I was in a small clearing and was tented say 5metre on one side of the trail and a buddy was a similar distance away on the other side. In the night there was a commotion which we took to be a Moose charging through. I had similar experience it the UK with loose horse galloping through a campsite. Certainly the wildlife use of the trail needs thinking about.

scope
04-16-2017, 16:14
I don't sleep where I poop :D

I'll never look at what I thought was bear scat the same way. [emoji37]


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rocketsocks
04-16-2017, 20:02
I'll never look at what I thought was bear scat the same way. [emoji37]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkyou won't mistake mine for bear scar, I don't eat blueberries and I rarely eat hikers.

egilbe
04-16-2017, 20:05
In the HMW, camped 20 ft off the trail along Rainbow Stream. Thruhikers walking by never noticed us sitting there cooking supper until we spoke. Either they were very focused or we are very stealthy.

cliffordbarnabus
04-16-2017, 22:24
down when dark. you're set.

up and at 'em when still darkish. you're set.

just be set.

Feral Bill
04-17-2017, 00:04
Long ago I camped directly on the trail in the Whites, above treeline in winter. We pitched two tents end to end and cooked in between. Not my proudest moment, but no harm done.

Bansko
04-17-2017, 09:06
Just a comment on those trails shared with horses. I lived at the base of the Wind River Mountains in Wyoming for well over a decade and did a lot of hiking and backpacking there. The main trails were used by people on horseback before backpacking became a "thing", so I fully understand why I am sharing the trail with horses. It doesn't bother me.

There are many trails in in Winds, many of them not marked or mapped, that are not passable by horses, not because horses aren't permitted, but because they physically can't make it. It was easy to get away from livestock if you wanted to.

Tipi Walter
04-17-2017, 10:08
Just a comment on those trails shared with horses. I lived at the base of the Wind River Mountains in Wyoming for well over a decade and did a lot of hiking and backpacking there. The main trails were used by people on horseback before backpacking became a "thing", so I fully understand why I am sharing the trail with horses. It doesn't bother me.

There are many trails in in Winds, many of them not marked or mapped, that are not passable by horses, not because horses aren't permitted, but because they physically can't make it. It was easy to get away from livestock if you wanted to.

Come to the Southeast mountains of TN, VA and NC and see the damage they do.

Bansko
04-17-2017, 10:22
Come to the Southeast mountains of TN, VA and NC and see the damage they do.

I don't doubt you, and while I have developed a certain contempt for "saddle potatoes", I also realize that they aren't going to go away, at least in the west.

Colter
04-17-2017, 10:26
As a rule of thumb I think camping on a trail is selfish. I can only think of one time I've camped right on the trail, that was out West on a steep hillside where I was confident someone wouldn't be coming along before I left.

Beyond the rudeness factor, trails would often be poor place to be camped if it rains, and human trails really do become wildlife trails at night.

Tipi Walter
04-17-2017, 10:28
I don't doubt you, and while I have developed a certain contempt for "saddle potatoes", I also realize that they aren't going to go away, at least in the west.

Wait? I've been using the term "saddle potatoes" in my trail journals for the last 5 or 6 years and it's funny to see someone else using the term for horsemen. (I call trail bicyclists "pedal potatoes"):)

colorado_rob
04-17-2017, 10:44
As a rule of thumb I think camping on a trail is selfish. I can only think of one time I've camped right on the trail, that was out West on a steep hillside where I was confident someone wouldn't be coming along before I left.

Beyond the rudeness factor, trails would often be poor place to be camped if it rains, and human trails really do become wildlife trails at night. Agree on the wildlife thing, but with due respect, what is actually "selfish" about camping right on the trail if it involves extenuating circumstances? What is ACTUALLY the inconvenience for hikers coming up to a tent on the trail? They have to make two steps to the side of the tent, hardly breaking their stride, and all of this in the unlikely event anyone actually comes along.

I do agree it *seems* rude and selfish, but really, it has no actual effect on hikers who happen upon this circumstance. Just my opinion.

For the record, in 45 years of backpacking, I have never had to do this, but on the AT, it did occur to me a couple times and almost did.

Colter
04-17-2017, 11:30
Agree on the wildlife thing, but with due respect, what is actually "selfish" about camping right on the trail if it involves extenuating circumstances? What is ACTUALLY the inconvenience for hikers coming up to a tent on the trail? They have to make two steps to the side of the tent, hardly breaking their stride, and all of this in the unlikely event anyone actually comes along.

I do agree it *seems* rude and selfish, but really, it has no actual effect on hikers who happen upon this circumstance. Just my opinion.

For the record, in 45 years of backpacking, I have never had to do this, but on the AT, it did occur to me a couple times and almost did.

With equal respect I did say "as a rule of thumb" not "even in extenuating circumstances."

Setting up a shelter on the trail does block the trail and annoy many people, so I think it does have an actual effect. Setting up on the trail makes one hiker's hike a little easier, and any following hiker's hike a little harder. That fits my definition of selfish.

rocketsocks
04-17-2017, 11:34
Wait? I've been using the term "saddle potatoes" in my trail journals for the last 5 or 6 years and it's funny to see someone else using the term for horsemen. (I call trail bicyclists "pedal potatoes"):)...and one who sits home and angrily posts could be construed to be a "potato chip" :D

Tipi Walter
04-17-2017, 11:44
...and one who sits home and angrily posts could be construed to be a "potato chip" :D

By far my most angry rants come from my trail journals on long backpacking trips. i.e. Backpacking Potato? Or Tent Potato?

rocketsocks
04-17-2017, 12:19
By far my most angry rants come from my trail journals on long backpacking trips. i.e. Backpacking Potato? Or Tent Potato?Nope, I was referring to me...a little self deprecation for the soul, your trail rants should have an ISBN # affiliated with em :D

RangerZ
04-17-2017, 12:30
Long ago I camped directly on the trail in the Whites, above treeline in winter. We pitched two tents end to end and cooked in between. Not my proudest moment, but no harm done.

While on the Laurel Highlands Trail at, if I remember correctly, the RT 56 shelter area I couldn't find the tent area. So I found a nice flat clear spot off the trail within the area. Found out pretty soon that it was the beginning of the trail to the tenting area. Not too much traffic so I stayed. ⛺️

colorado_rob
04-17-2017, 13:11
With equal respect I did say "as a rule of thumb" not "even in extenuating circumstances."

Setting up a shelter on the trail does block the trail and annoy many people, so I think it does have an actual effect. Setting up on the trail makes one hiker's hike a little easier, and any following hiker's hike a little harder. That fits my definition of selfish.Yet you've done it? I guess we've all been selfish now and then though, who hasn't? My point is that setting up a tent in the middle of the trail does not, in fact, make the hiker's hike any harder really, come on, a couple little steps off to the side, and it's not about making the hiker that sets up his/her tent on the trail any easier, it's about he/she is out of other options. For sure though, it certainly would annoy most hikers to come along and see a tent right in the middle. I have come across this precisely once (and on the AT, of course), and I was just a bit annoyed, despite the fact that in a perfect world, I should not be.

Another Kevin
04-17-2017, 13:22
I don't sleep where I poop :D

Confession: I have pooped right in my campsite. Which was a spot WELL off trail - like half a mile from the nearest trail and well back from water, and I'd already packed up. Since it wasn't any too likely that anyone else would be sleeping there before Mother Nature had dealt with the consequences, and I wasn't coming back, I wound up digging my hole right where my tent had been.

scope
04-17-2017, 13:25
...alrightythen.

Another great reason to hang instead of sleeping on the trail on the ground.

Dogwood
04-17-2017, 13:55
In the HMW, camped 20 ft off the trail along Rainbow Stream. Thruhikers walking by never noticed us sitting there cooking supper until we spoke. Either they were very focused or we are very stealthy.

They were likely so self absorbed in the typical thru-hiker mentality of having to be somewhere else than where they were that they ignored letting you know they noticed you. Gott go go go gotta be somewhere else.

Colter
04-17-2017, 14:12
Yet you've done it? ...

Yup. Because there were extenuating circumstances and I was confident no one else would come along, and no one did.

Actually, I think our opinions are pretty similar on the topic.

evyck da fleet
04-17-2017, 15:01
I backtracked .2 miles from Kent and camped on a side trail instead of night hiking. A few hours later I heard what sounded like four wheelers miles away. The thought of getting run over by a drunk having no fun in the woods was enough to make sure I won't do that again. Unless it's an emergency where I can't self rescue and I don't want people walking by the tent ten feet off the trail.

peakbagger
04-17-2017, 15:05
Confession: I have pooped right in my campsite. Which was a spot WELL off trail - like half a mile from the nearest trail and well back from water, and I'd already packed up. Since it wasn't any too likely that anyone else would be sleeping there before Mother Nature had dealt with the consequences, and I wasn't coming back, I wound up digging my hole right where my tent had been.

This method has reportedly been used by trail crews sick of breaking up bootleg sites and having folks reopen them again. I don't think its official policy;)

Tipi Walter
04-17-2017, 16:04
This method has reportedly been used by trail crews sick of breaking up bootleg sites and having folks reopen them again. I don't think its official policy;)

I've never heard of "bootleg sites" but then I never camp where forest honchos have a policy of Camp Only Here. All the hundreds of miles of trails I backpack have no such policy---I camp whenever and wherever I like. Sadly, more and more areas are getting policed by the nanny state telling us where we must camp. It's lunacy. Hopefully I'll be long dead before the Cherokee and Nantahala and Jefferson and Chattahoochee national forests become regulated in such a way.

Another Kevin
04-17-2017, 18:07
This method has reportedly been used by trail crews sick of breaking up bootleg sites and having folks reopen them again. I don't think its official policy;)

The first thing I try is to post NO CAMPING and NO FIRES disks and brushing in the site. But yes, I've been tempted to make the site unpleasant in other ways.


I've never heard of "bootleg sites" but then I never camp where forest honchos have a policy of Camp Only Here. All the hundreds of miles of trails I backpack have no such policy---I camp whenever and wherever I like. Sadly, more and more areas are getting policed by the nanny state telling us where we must camp. It's lunacy. Hopefully I'll be long dead before the Cherokee and Nantahala and Jefferson and Chattahoochee national forests become regulated in such a way.

For what it's worth, the site in question was in New York's Slide Mountain Wilderness. The only restrictions there on where you may camp are the sensible ones of "either at a designated site, or else more than 150 feet from a trail or water source, more than a quarter mile from a road, and below 3500 feet." The 150-foot restrictions are in place to keep the wildlife relatively unmolested. The critters use human trails, a lot, and of course water sources draw them. The 3500 feet are where the ecosystem gets pretty fragile and it might take years for a campsite to heal. (In fact, it's allowed to camp up there in winter, because you aren't going to hurt the snow any.)

The site was a tiny clearing in a grove of hemlocks, just big enough to pitch a TarpTent Notch. In short, I wasn't going to be back, and it was highly unlikely anyone else would, either. No compunctions whatever about using the site as a toilet, there was no better place to do it than right where I was standing.

As far as camping on a trail goes, I've never done it knowingly. I'd do it if I really, really wanted to be found. (As in, wanted to be found badly enough to pay the likely $300 fine for camping there.)

Dogwood
04-17-2017, 18:32
Sleeping in the trail when the tread is in an area on a rocky narrow gritty(slippery?) slope(as can be the case on the PCT in SoCal, as is depicted), on switchbacks, on a narrow ridge, with brush(cacti, cholla, Joshua Trees, poodle bush, briars, etc) hemming it in, during PCT hiker bubbles with some in SoCal starting their hiking day pre 7 a.m., as is the case depicted, is not cool. Erecting a tent even it being a 1 p design and then sleeping in expecting others to get by you increases the uncool-ness of it all. Excusing this behavior saying no other options exist is a cop out. It isn't a matter of simply walking around. And, even if it was can't that lead to trail erosion as it seems it can in the picture? LOOK at the pic! Doesn't the PCT tread in SoCal already suffer from illegal use trails and illegal ATV/4WD tracks and meandering multiple routes?

Aren't some of the reasons why CS's are located some feet off the main tread are to cooperate with others to allow everyone to experience their hikes without having to walk around sleeping people, experience campers(and to give campers some privacy?), or the impact that can occur to the tread/adjacent tread area. Where did this camper go to the bathroom in the middle of the night? Seems if they could find a place to do that then a place to also camp OFF the trail was an option. What if they were hiking with a dog? What if an equestrian came along? What if another PCTer came along hiking at night as some PCTers do in SoCal, as this person did, and came across this person camping directly within the narrow tread? What if, as said, a coyote or rattlesnake or mountain lion or black bear was using the trail just ahead of another night hiker and came across this person blocking the tread? Could there be issues with everyone in one bottlenecked place during the night meeting up in close proximity?

This situation sounds more like a THRU/LD hiker with a typical gotta go go go thru-hiker mentality hiking into the night pushing themselves hard not aware of where they were on a map who, for their own convenience and out of ignorance, camped within the tread. Could this patterned behavior be further observed in sleeping in at this specific place on a slope during high PCT usage within the bubble? Who the heck sets up a tent in a narrow tread sloped area in the middle of the trail like this to sleep? Maybe, someone who sought to get in a couple more miles...and then felt spent? :-? Certainly would be the first time this had happened.

Similar to this type of behavior is having someone camping and sleeping in the N. Kaibab Tunnel in GC NP because they felt tired or achy or didn't want to get wet or didn't have a CS reservation or failed to appropriately organize their hike(like rim to river back to a rim in day folks) assuming the rest of the world would accommodate their situation. Yet, the NPS has to repeatedly tell people NOT to camp in the tunnel. Can't have stock and others go by someone sleeping inside the tunnel.

What if every LD hiker with an ache or pain started camping directly in the tread? C'mon. Can't find a better option?

rocketsocks
04-17-2017, 18:51
Confession: I have pooped right in my campsite. Which was a spot WELL off trail - like half a mile from the nearest trail and well back from water, and I'd already packed up. Since it wasn't any too likely that anyone else would be sleeping there before Mother Nature had dealt with the consequences, and I wasn't coming back, I wound up digging my hole right where my tent had been.confession: one of my free standing tents has a half moon zipper in the floor for cooking...and, where by I Monty-Pythoned my legs through, hiked up the tent to my waist, and by the cover of darkness visited my neighbor (buddy of mine) and let's just say I left him a present on his door step...then I Benny Hill'd it outta there.

Zea
04-17-2017, 19:07
Got hit with a horrible sinus infection and fever my 1st night of a 3 day hike in the Whites a couple years ago. I was heading south over Franconia Ridge toward Liberty Springs campsite on a 13 mile day with my fiance, my condition and her being new to hiking made it a much longer day than expected. By the time we cleared the ridge it had been pitch black out for over an hour. Those who've hiked up there can understand how hard it is to find space for a tent even below treeline. Kept hopping off the trail randomly to try to find anything, but it was pitch-black and the ground was spongy from rain the night before. Finally ended up just parking on some rocks about a mile from the campsite and leaning on my pack to crash for the night mid-trail. At that point even if we found a spot I was so drained I couldn't even fathom trying to get the tent up, pads inflated, hang a bear bag etc... and the fiance was new to it all so wouldn't be able to help much.

She ended up being too sketched out to just sleep on the trail, and after 20 minutes of kinda-almost-napping I figured with the little rest I might be able to slog my way to the campground. Ended up getting there after the longest mile of my life and luckily the caretaker let us crash in the overflow spot. All the platforms were taken and I would've had to try to squeeze a non-freestanding tent onto a platform next to people who were trying to sleep, which I really didn't have the energy for.

Basically I can understand if someone does camp on the trail if they have a valid reason to do it. I wasn't in what I would call an "emergency" situation, but I have never felt so completely done in my life. I was dizzy and my head was throbbing from the sinus issues, light-headed and sweaty from the fever and was aching all over. It was risky of me to keep going, my focus was gone and it was dark which was an awful combo. Going out into pitch-black woods while completely dazed and exhausted trying to find a spot is also not the wisest.

rafe
04-17-2017, 19:31
Let's just say, if it were me, camped on the trail, and another hiker came by, I'd anticipate a rude remark or two, and it would (probably) be deserved. I wouldn't do in daylight unless it were a true emergency. I wouldn't do it on a well-traveled stretch of trail except after dark or if I'd not seen another hiker for a good long time. I wouldn't do it if camping off the trail was an option.

We were NOBO and I didn't feel like staying at Chestnut Knob shelter. Stone shelters creep me out. There was some daylight left so we pushed on. I was pretty sure we'd find a place to camp in the woods, down the mountain. We walked and walked, daylight began to fade. We found a spot, off the trail, that seemed OK. But as we set up we were startled by yelling, in a not-friendly voice, from a house that we could see through the woods. We hadn't even noticed the house before that. It way too close for comfort. We hastily relocated our tents to the trail proper. We figured we were safer on the trail than on someone's private land.

illabelle
04-17-2017, 19:45
Got hit with a horrible sinus infection and fever my 1st night of a 3 day hike in the Whites a couple years ago. I was heading south over Franconia Ridge toward Liberty Springs campsite on a 13 mile day with my fiance, my condition and her being new to hiking made it a much longer day than expected. By the time we cleared the ridge it had been pitch black out for over an hour. Those who've hiked up there can understand how hard it is to find space for a tent even below treeline. Kept hopping off the trail randomly to try to find anything, but it was pitch-black and the ground was spongy from rain the night before. Finally ended up just parking on some rocks about a mile from the campsite and leaning on my pack to crash for the night mid-trail. At that point even if we found a spot I was so drained I couldn't even fathom trying to get the tent up, pads inflated, hang a bear bag etc... and the fiance was new to it all so wouldn't be able to help much.

She ended up being too sketched out to just sleep on the trail, and after 20 minutes of kinda-almost-napping I figured with the little rest I might be able to slog my way to the campground. Ended up getting there after the longest mile of my life and luckily the caretaker let us crash in the overflow spot. All the platforms were taken and I would've had to try to squeeze a non-freestanding tent onto a platform next to people who were trying to sleep, which I really didn't have the energy for.

Basically I can understand if someone does camp on the trail if they have a valid reason to do it. I wasn't in what I would call an "emergency" situation, but I have never felt so completely done in my life. I was dizzy and my head was throbbing from the sinus issues, light-headed and sweaty from the fever and was aching all over. It was risky of me to keep going, my focus was gone and it was dark which was an awful combo. Going out into pitch-black woods while completely dazed and exhausted trying to find a spot is also not the wisest.

Perhaps we should amend "in an emergency" to "not becoming an emergency." By wisely using the trail to camp/rest, you avoided injury. Those mountains truly are rough, and certainly dangerous for wandering around in the dark when ill and exhausted.

rocketsocks
04-17-2017, 20:27
Last time I slept ROT a couple came by a shot me a nasty look, I gave it my very best "I've been lost on for days" and could you please help me find the trail. The do you have any water was the cherry on top and sent them both running the way they came...my bad.

colorado_rob
04-17-2017, 23:36
Actually, I think our opinions are pretty similar on the topic. Yep, in fact, seemingly nearly everyone is pretty similar on this one, though with different spins/twists. Kind of a bad thing to do, rude, etc, but if you gotta do it, you gotta do it, just do it when no hikers will likely pass by (over, through, ....). Not sure where all the "potato" comments fit in, but "camp potato" springs to mind....

Dogwood
04-18-2017, 00:27
Perhaps we should amend "in an emergency" to "not becoming an emergency." By wisely using the trail to camp/rest, you avoided injury. Those mountains truly are rough, and certainly dangerous for wandering around in the dark when ill and exhausted.

There we go. Don't let YOUR HIKE YOUR LIFE become an emergency when in your power to do so. It seemed this hiker had not been kidnapped and forced to do what he/she did. This hiker had the power to CHOOSE how late into the night and how far he/she hiked and how far he/she pushed their physical limits. HYOH, although typically referred to justify one's hike, has another aspect to it. It's called being personally accountable for your hike.

Bansko
04-18-2017, 11:43
I suppose I should admit to my camping on the trail incident. I don't approve of it and look down upon it, but I did it. I was night hiking somewhere in VA, intending to go all night, but rain hit and I just wanted to hunker down. After several miles of scanning left and right with my headlamp and finding nothing suitable I pitched my tent right beside the trail. While it allowed plenty of room for others to pass, I was still mortified that someone would come across my transgression.

I told myself I would wake up before dawn and pack up, but I was awakened by a couple of passing hikers at around 7:00 AM making a well-deserved comment about my tent being being in a spot where it shouldn't have been. I feigned sleep and after they passed I quickly packed up before anyone else came by.

Berserker
04-18-2017, 12:30
From an etiquette stand point it's kinda a no no, but I would think the the LNT teetotalers would be all over this...maybe a new trend of camping right on the trail will start :eek:

colorado_rob
04-18-2017, 12:53
From an etiquette stand point it's kinda a no no, but I would think the the LNT teetotalers would be all over this...maybe a new trend of camping right on the trail will start :eek: LNT = "leave no trace", I haven't heard of "BNT" = "Be no trace", meaning as long as you're not "leaving" anything, what would be the rub? (<- all said tongue in cheek)

Dogwood
04-18-2017, 12:53
I've never heard of "bootleg sites" but then I never camp where forest honchos have a policy of Camp Only Here. All the hundreds of miles of trails I backpack have no such policy---I camp whenever and wherever I like. Sadly, more and more areas are getting policed by the nanny state telling us where we must camp. It's lunacy. Hopefully I'll be long dead before the Cherokee and Nantahala and Jefferson and Chattahoochee national forests become regulated in such a way.

Thank goodness there are regs concerning where one can camp. Think about it TW. Do you want water sources compromised, fragile ecological/historical/cultural sites damaged/destroyed, campfire and debris remains, problems among resource users,...? Do you think without such regs and enforcement campers/hikers/trail users are always going to know and do the right thing? Heck, even with knowing regs people in their selfishness and ignorance still can have the attitude I'll do as I damn well please. Why is it that you never have issue with regs and nanny state gov't that support your own aims, like barring equestrians or bicyclists from YOUR trails? Where's the "WE" in your equation?

BrianLe
04-18-2017, 12:56
Seems to me that part of the discomfort of talking about this in a wide-open forum is that people read comments and evaluate them based on their own experience base. If your personal experience at backpacking is limited to mostly hiking not too-o far from trailheads, and/or on popular trails at fairly popular times --- I can understand the response of "it's never ever acceptable to camp directly on the trail, period, end of story". Certainly on any trail, anywhere, it is indeed something that should be very rare, definitely not any sort of normal practice (!). But do some long distance hiking on lesser known and loved (and not so well marked or maintained) trails and you might see the point of view that says that this stuff is somewhat context sensitive. If you've been hiking for days without seeing another human being and you go through an extensive area where there's just no flattish ground that doesn't have thick brush growing on it, I think that anyone might see the logic of setting up camp on the trail surface just before dark and packing the tent back up just as it's light out enough to see.

I suppose this is another of those topics that's difficult, and perhaps just too difficult to share ideas about without ending up with unhappy feelings. Also at work here perhaps is how we tend to give rules of thumb about various things when teaching beginning backpacking classes. In such a class there's a tendency to simplify, to boil down things to simple rules of thumb, that are in fact more nuanced for a more experienced hiker. But we want to err on the side of beginners not doing bad LNT stuff, not getting into emergency situations, etc, so we give simple rules of thumb --- and often those rules then stick in people's minds, what they hear in classes seeming to be as if writ on stone tablets by the hand of an all-knowing deity.
I certainly would not want, in a class for backpacking beginners, to say something like "you only very rarely and only under very limited conditions want to camp directly on the trail" ! Maybe I should be wiser and just think of "the internet" as a class for beginning backpackers ... :-)

Dogwood
04-18-2017, 13:00
I backtracked .2 miles from Kent and camped on a side trail instead of night hiking...

Some gung ho hikers would see this as a horror backtracking to camp off trail outside of the tread...I'm being facetious but that's the attitude of some gung ho hikers. I'll keep hiking until I'm spent with no idea of where or how I might sleep. Ohh by the way my knees hurt which makes it OK to sleep directly on trail.

full conditions
04-18-2017, 13:55
On my southbound thru I had to do a long hitch down to Concord,NH and back to Gorham all in a day. I got back on the trail around midnight with the hope of making it to the Rattle River shelter - well, once my flashlight started to wane I just decided that, what the heck, it was a warm, cloudless night so I just laid down in the trail and went to sleep - got up at first light the next morning and just started walking (naturally, I was less than a couple hundred yards from the shelter - which was just as well as the occupants most likely would not have appreciated a midnight arrival). It was a great night's sleep.

Lnj
04-18-2017, 20:13
Some of the official campsites on the Approach trail are not more than 20 feet from the trail. My husband and I hung out hammock about 10 feet off the trail just south of Springer on the approach. Not "on" the trail or across the trail but just off to the side of it in a bed of boulders. We weren't in anyone's way and left no trace. Never occurred to me that this could be a no-no. We were in sight of the Black Gap shelter, but a good distance away from it. Don't think anyone passed by us the next morning, but if they did, they were either quiet or we were sleeping too well to hear them.

Tipi Walter
04-18-2017, 20:34
Thank goodness there are regs concerning where one can camp. Think about it TW. Do you want water sources compromised, fragile ecological/historical/cultural sites damaged/destroyed, campfire and debris remains, problems among resource users,...? Do you think without such regs and enforcement campers/hikers/trail users are always going to know and do the right thing? Heck, even with knowing regs people in their selfishness and ignorance still can have the attitude I'll do as I damn well please. Why is it that you never have issue with regs and nanny state gov't that support your own aims, like barring equestrians or bicyclists from YOUR trails? Where's the "WE" in your equation?

Mt Rogers backcountry has no such regulations. Nor does the biggest wilderness in the East---Cohutta/Big Frog. Or Pisgah NF in the Wildson Creek area (Harper Creek, Lost Cove Creek etc). And after hundreds (thousands) of trips to these areas and others in the last 40 years I HAVE NOT found them to be compromised in any way.

Water sources contaminated by hikers? No, think again. In fact, in my neck of the woods the worst water contamination occurred when the forest service allowed the Cherohala Skyway to be dynamited and bulldozed in thereby polluting McNabb Creek with iron pyrite acid pollution.
39077
Danger. Contaminated Water. Do Not Use. Did hikers do this? Nope.

But what HAS happened is thru free trade with Japan the woolly adelgid made its way to the Southeast forests and decimated the hemlock trees. And overhead jet traffic has severely polluted the air space over these areas with noise pollution. And let's not forget the horror of national forest logging whereby bulldozers come in and completely ruin a mountain for the next 500 years with road scars.

39078
Did hikers do this? Nope, it's your forest service in action.

39079
Wonderful logging and road bulldozing next to the BMT in Sandy Gap. Hiker caused? Nope.

Miner
04-18-2017, 20:48
Agree on the wildlife thing, but with due respect, what is actually "selfish" about camping right on the trail if it involves extenuating circumstances? What is ACTUALLY the inconvenience for hikers coming up to a tent on the trail? They have to make two steps to the side of the tent, hardly breaking their stride, and all of this in the unlikely event anyone actually comes along.

I do agree it *seems* rude and selfish, but really, it has no actual effect on hikers who happen upon this circumstance. Just my opinion.

For the record, in 45 years of backpacking, I have never had to do this, but on the AT, it did occur to me a couple times and almost did.

So having to step aside a few feet, putting me on a very steep slope, sliding down farther then I wanted to and scratching my leg up, possibly risking even greater injury in hindsight as I could have slide pretty far down, is having no actual affect on hikers!? Hence my comment back on page 1. And that was with me on the trail at dawn. I often get up at first light and get on the trail even earlier. If people get up while its still dark to pack up so I never see them, then I obviously won't even know enough to complain. But I will no longer attempt to pass by quietly if I come across a tent blocking me.

Tipi Walter
04-18-2017, 20:57
So having to step aside a few feet, putting me on a very steep slope, sliding down farther then I wanted to and scratching my leg up, possibly risking even greater injury in hindsight as I could have slide pretty far down, is having no actual affect on hikers!? Hence my comment back on page 1. And that was with me on the trail at dawn. I often get up at first light and get on the trail even earlier. If people get up while its still dark to pack up so I never see them, then I obviously won't even know enough to complain. But I will no longer attempt to pass by quietly if I come across a tent blocking me.

I agree, it's a rude and selfish act---to park my butt down right in the middle of the trail. Am I so dang lazy that I can't find a decent place to camp? And who wants to sleep in a tent directly on a trail as chattering monkey-like hikers pass me by guffawing at high volume and even worse, stopping to say hello?

rocketsocks
04-18-2017, 21:06
What's worse than tenting right on trail?

hammock across trail

egilbe
04-18-2017, 21:34
What's worse than tenting right on trail?

hammock across trail

Falling off a cliff in the middle of the night. Duh!

CalebJ
04-19-2017, 09:47
As a general rule it seems like a terrible idea to me, but I'll admit to having done it. On the BMT on a weeknight after not seeing anyone for several days, I came to a flat spot in the trail with a decent view and just decided to call it a day. Dropped my bivy sack right where I stood, ate a bit to eat, and passed out until the sun came up. Packed up and stepped off again without seeing or hearing anybody (as I recall it was at least another day before I ran across anybody).

gwschenk
04-19-2017, 10:01
I camp whenever and wherever I like.

I certainly hope not. And I'm sure you carefully pick your camps to minimize damage to the site. Not everyone does, hence the regulations.

Berserker
04-19-2017, 12:11
LNT = "leave no trace", I haven't heard of "BNT" = "Be no trace", meaning as long as you're not "leaving" anything, what would be the rub? (<- all said tongue in cheek)
Hey, you've captured a great concept here. Your simple acronym encompasses so many aspects of things that come up on WB such as trail etiquette, shelter etiquette, what to do with TP, etc. So instead of these long arse threads on all this how about everyone just BNT...that would resolve everything :D

rocketsocks
04-19-2017, 12:39
LNT = "leave no trace", I haven't heard of "BNT" = "Be no trace", meaning as long as you're not "leaving" anything, what would be the rub? (<- all said tongue in cheek)


Hey, you've captured a great concept here. Your simple acronym encompasses so many aspects of things that come up on WB such as trail etiquette, shelter etiquette, what to do with TP, etc. So instead of these long arse threads on all this how about everyone just BNT...that would resolve everything :D

Breaking news, this just in.

Finally the "Unified Hiker Theroy" has been cracked...the god particle if you will shall ever be ka-nown as
B=N/t or "BNT"

AllDownhillFromHere
04-19-2017, 14:27
I've never heard of "bootleg sites" but then I never camp where forest honchos have a policy of Camp Only Here. All the hundreds of miles of trails I backpack have no such policy---I camp whenever and wherever I like. Sadly, more and more areas are getting policed by the nanny state telling us where we must camp. It's lunacy. Hopefully I'll be long dead before the Cherokee and Nantahala and Jefferson and Chattahoochee national forests become regulated in such a way.

emphases mine

Ironic(?) since you're the one complaining about hammock guys hanging wherever they want, other people leaving crap all over the place, and how they then use HYOH as an excuse.


For the record, I have camped DIRECTLY on the trail once, just north of N.Conway, NH right after the highway overpass. One of the least appealing places to camp, ever, but it was near midnight.

Tipi Walter
04-19-2017, 16:34
emphases mine

Ironic(?) since you're the one complaining about hammock guys hanging wherever they want, other people leaving crap all over the place, and how they then use HYOH as an excuse.



Nothing wrong with pointing out Heavy Trace Leavers but you left out the biggest component of my quote---I never suggested we set up a regulated system to police these individuals or close the forest off to where they can camp.

I'm still all for unregulated backpacking w/o designated sites, overnight fees, reservations or tent cops---so come out one and all on foot---even the pigs---BUT when you break the rules which are interpreted by my personal opinion of what the rules are TO ME---Then you could/may get humiliated, reviewed, fotoged and mocked---by me. My opinion only. Feel free to have your own. Complaining is vastly different than setting up regs with fines and tent police wanting to see your papers.

And for those who do leave crap-garbage all over the place, they SHOULD be humiliated. Unless it's your personal opinion that such trash is good for the outdoors?

colorado_rob
04-19-2017, 16:50
So having to step aside a few feet, putting me on a very steep slope, sliding down farther then I wanted to and scratching my leg up, possibly risking even greater injury in hindsight as I could have slide pretty far down, is having no actual affect on hikers!? Hence my comment back on page 1. And that was with me on the trail at dawn. I often get up at first light and get on the trail even earlier. If people get up while its still dark to pack up so I never see them, then I obviously won't even know enough to complain. But I will no longer attempt to pass by quietly if I come across a tent blocking me. Sounds contrived and very unusual circumstances, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your very specific case tent-dodging put you at some increased sort of risk. I must say that if dodging a tent every 10 years on the trail puts anyone in a dangerous situation, I suggest they take up some other past time, or at least never hike the AT in New Hampshire or southern Maine! Yikes.

By the way, I hiked the entire AT, many times at night, never saw one tent pitched on/across the trail. Thanks goodness given the clutz that I am!

Rude, seems like we all agree. But "selfish"????

I cringe when I see that word used so freely in this and other WB posts. WHAT about long distance hiking for 99% of us is not selfish? What are we contributing to either our fellow man or society or our families or whomever when we long distance hike? Sorry folks, we are all pretty much selfish. Not a bad thing, "selfishness" is an inborn trait to most living things.

Tipi Walter
04-19-2017, 17:16
Sounds contrived and very unusual circumstances, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your very specific case tent-dodging put you at some increased sort of risk. I must say that if dodging a tent every 10 years on the trail puts anyone in a dangerous situation, I suggest they take up some other past time, or at least never hike the AT in New Hampshire or southern Maine! Yikes.

By the way, I hiked the entire AT, many times at night, never saw one tent pitched on/across the trail. Thanks goodness given the clutz that I am!

Rude, seems like we all agree. But "selfish"????

I cringe when I see that word used so freely in this and other WB posts. WHAT about long distance hiking for 99% of us is not selfish? What are we contributing to either our fellow man or society or our families or whomever when we long distance hike? Sorry folks, we are all pretty much selfish. Not a bad thing, "selfishness" is an inborn trait to most living things.

I agree seeing a shelter right on the trail is a rarity, as you say maybe I've seen it once every 10 years.

As far as "selfish" vs "entitled"---both are the same I guess. Pure selfishness would make for a genghis khan-type backpacker---steal everyone's food, crap right on the ground, lie about all trail accomplishments, steal boots or gear whenever you need them. Run amuck. Become a movable drama planet which everyone else must orbit.

Thankfully most hikers can keep a lid on their selfishness---humping a 50 lb pack up mountains all day tends to be extremely self-centering but at least we're not selfish AND lazy.

KDogg
04-19-2017, 21:57
I saw several tents right on the trail just above Damascus the morning of trail days. They weren't letting anybody camp prior to the official dates. Guess folks didn't plan well or maybe they didn't want to stay in the shelter just before (It was a bit crowded).

Dogwood
04-19-2017, 22:15
Amazed at how some people categorize hiking personalities and LD hikes. Since when can't a hiker(LD or otherwise) and hike be categorized as coming from a place of benevolence, consideration of more than oneself, generosity, kindness, politeness, and peace to all?

If you wish to opine on how you walk fine but don't apply your reality to all.

Bansko
04-20-2017, 08:42
What's worse than tenting right on trail?

hammock across trail

I came upon a hammock across the trail last year in the 100 mile wilderness. The trail ran by a lake and a hammock was directly across the trail. It was mid-afternoon and a young woman was sort of napping, but awake enough to tell me where she thought the trail was, pointing up a hill. The trail was poorly marked, so I took her advice. A few minutes later, I backtracked (no trail) and realized that her hammock was directly across the trail. I didn't say anything to her, as it wasn't intentional.

I was more likely to come across people intentionally taking breaks directly on the trail, and expecting me to skirt around them.

daddytwosticks
04-20-2017, 09:02
I came upon a hammock across the trail last year in the 100 mile wilderness. The trail ran by a lake and a hammock was directly across the trail. It was mid-afternoon and a young woman was sort of napping, but awake enough to tell me where she thought the trail was, pointing up a hill. The trail was poorly marked, so I took her advice. A few minutes later, I backtracked (no trail) and realized that her hammock was directly across the trail. I didn't say anything to her, as it wasn't intentional.

I was more likely to come across people intentionally taking breaks directly on the trail, and expecting me to skirt around them.

Same here. Had a group just standing/sitting in the middle of the trail. They didn't budge an inch when they saw me. Actually had to sayou "excuse me", "pardon me" as I stepped around and between them. Felt like stabbing a few with my trekking poles

dmax
04-20-2017, 12:31
I wonder how many shelters are set up right on the trail. When I first started reading this thread the old apple orchard shelter popped in my head. Then I got to wondering how many times the trail was rerouted because the shelter was right on the trail...

My son was around 12 years old when we got separated at night. We lost contact when he dropped his 2-way radio off of a rock outcropping. With some smart thinking he didn't climb down to try and retrieve it. He pictured himself getting hurt or knock unconscious. .. I found him 3 hours later with his tent pitched right in the middle of the trail. That was smart thinking and something we had never discussed.

Two years ago my wife and I had to pitch right off the trail. I could reach out my door and touch the trail. Out my wife's side of the tent was a big drop off. She'll tell you how far it went down, cause she went down it about 2:00am. She was not a happy camper after that.....
Neither one of us care if anybody thinks it was right or not to camp there. Emergencies are different in everyone's state of mind at the time. And if anyone had hiked by, which didn't happen, would have got our opinion from our state of mind......

Malto
04-20-2017, 12:35
I wonder how many shelters are set up right on the trail. When I first started reading this thread the old apple orchard shelter popped in my head. Then I got to wondering how many times the trail was rerouted because the shelter was right on the trail...

My son was around 12 years old when we got separated at night. We lost contact when he dropped his 2-way radio off of a rock outcropping. With some smart thinking he didn't climb down to try and retrieve it. He pictured himself getting hurt or knock unconscious. .. I found him 3 hours later with his tent pitched right in the middle of the trail. That was smart thinking and something we had never discussed.

Two years ago my wife and I had to pitch right off the trail. I could reach out my door and touch the trail. Out my wife's side of the tent was a big drop off. She'll tell you how far it went down, cause she went down it about 2:00am. She was not a happy camper after that.....
Neither one of us care if anybody thinks it was right or not to camp there. Emergencies are different in everyone's state of mind at the time. And if anyone had hiked by, which didn't happen, would have got our opinion from our state of mind......

That was a very smart move by your son.

rocketsocks
04-20-2017, 13:25
I wonder how many shelters are set up right on the trail. When I first started reading this thread the old apple orchard shelter popped in my head. Then I got to wondering how many times the trail was rerouted because the shelter was right on the trail...

My son was around 12 years old when we got separated at night. We lost contact when he dropped his 2-way radio off of a rock outcropping. With some smart thinking he didn't climb down to try and retrieve it. He pictured himself getting hurt or knock unconscious. .. I found him 3 hours later with his tent pitched right in the middle of the trail. That was smart thinking and something we had never discussed.

Two years ago my wife and I had to pitch right off the trail. I could reach out my door and touch the trail. Out my wife's side of the tent was a big drop off. She'll tell you how far it went down, cause she went down it about 2:00am. She was not a happy camper after that.....
Neither one of us care if anybody thinks it was right or not to camp there. Emergencies are different in everyone's state of mind at the time. And if anyone had hiked by, which didn't happen, would have got our opinion from our state of mind......


That was a very smart move by your son.I agree, and the correct situation for pitching right-on-trail.

rocketsocks
04-20-2017, 13:37
If you wish to opine on how you walk fine but don't apply your reality to all.Now I mean this in the very nicest possible way.
Wow, coming from you that's rich.:D

Bronk
04-20-2017, 15:01
Nothing wrong with pointing out Heavy Trace Leavers but you left out the biggest component of my quote---I never suggested we set up a regulated system to police these individuals or close the forest off to where they can camp.

I'm still all for unregulated backpacking w/o designated sites, overnight fees, reservations or tent cops---so come out one and all on foot---even the pigs---BUT when you break the rules which are interpreted by my personal opinion of what the rules are TO ME---Then you could/may get humiliated, reviewed, fotoged and mocked---by me. My opinion only. Feel free to have your own. Complaining is vastly different than setting up regs with fines and tent police wanting to see your papers.

And for those who do leave crap-garbage all over the place, they SHOULD be humiliated. Unless it's your personal opinion that such trash is good for the outdoors?Yes...too many people automatically make the leap from a perceived problem to setting up rules and regulations, often when there is not clear agreement (1) that there is a problem (2) what the problem is, and (3) what should be done about it.

RockDoc
04-20-2017, 15:23
I've done it rarely when there were no other options. Just get up early and get going so that you're not in the way.