government shutdown impact

[bfox]

This is NOT intended to be a political post. But there is news that Trump is going to be asking congress (and not Mexico) for the initial funding to build his wall. There is also talk that this funding issue might force a gubmint shutdown on April 28th.

Can anyone tell me how the government shutdown of 2013 affected access to GSMNP? I recall rafters trying to launch on the grand canyon on the day of the shutdown being denied access. However, those that launched prior to the shutdown were able to continue the 28 day trip even though it overlapped with the shutdown period. I imagine it would be similar for thru hikers entering GMSNP... if you can get in before the 28th then there wouldnt be a problem, but any date afterward, and there might be rangers blocking entrance.

Hopefully, this doesnt happen and wont be a concern. My start date is going to be sometime in April and I have some wiggle room on the exact date. What day would you want to start at Springer to make sure you are in GSMNP before April 28th?

[Sarcasm the elf]

Here is a link to the lengthy discussion that was held during the 2013 shutdown.

If I recall, national parks were closed and the closure was enforced. Those found already in the parks were generally escorted out without penalty, but that's not a guarantee. Other federal lands such as national forests and wilderness areas were officially closed, but still accessable. I hiked Springer to Hogpen Gap during the 2013 shutdown and the only effect it had was that the bathrooms at one of the tourist stops (Woody Gap?) were closed.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/98667-What-happen-if-National-Parks-close

[bfox]

Here is a link to the lengthy discussion that was held during the 2013 shutdown.

If I recall, national parks were closed and the closure was enforced. Those found already in the parks were generally escorted out without penalty, but that's not a guarantee. Other federal lands such as national forests and wilderness areas were officially closed, but still accessable. I hiked Springer to Hogpen Gap during the 2013 shutdown and the only effect it had was that the bathrooms at one of the tourist stops (Woody Gap?) were closed.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/98667-What-happen-if-National-Parks-close

Thanks for the link!

[Alligator]

It's a theoretical possibility but we are not going to sit and get into how possible. I'm moving this to Straight Forward. Stick to the logistical issues asked and assume the question is simply if there was a government shutdown on 4/28. Additional political comments will removed from the thread.

[MuddyWaters]

Leave by about april 10 would be my suggestion. Gives a couple days cushion for problems or slow start. Avg takes 16 days, and need to resupply at fontana.

[billreillyjr]

I was on the c&o canal during a government shutdown and they disabled the water pumps

[Engine]

April 28th should find us really close to SNP, which would really stink to have to skip, but I think it's far too early to worry yet. If you leave Springer between the 8th and the 10th, you should be fine.

[pilgrimskywheel]

I left Maine in 2013 (after doing sections missed in 12) and hitched to Front Royal with every intention of Hiking SOBO through Shenandoah. (I aquablazed NOBO that spring) I just happened to hit the gas station right before the northern park gate and happened to see the news on the front page of the local paper. It included the park closing. HUGE BUMMER DUDE! I kept on down to the GSMNP, waited at Standing Bear for the Gov. to reopen - we were blessed with amazing weather for October, and when the Gov. opened back up the Smokies were EMPTY! I had the place pretty much all to myself! It was awesome - and a little weird too.

Word to the wise: If the Gov. shuts down again, wait at a National Park boundary for it to open again. Then run!

[johnnybgood]

A gov't shutdown won't affect the thru-hiker already inside the parks boundary with a permit . I don't recall anyone being escorted from SNP during the 2013 shutdown.

I'm guessing park rangers would hand out permits till the day of the impending gov't closure and would inform hikers of their responsibility in case they needed emergency services.

[4eyedbuzzard]

IIRC, those NPS Rangers who are sworn Federal Law Enforcement Officers (most Rangers aren't) along with Park Police (and virtually all Federal Law Enforcement) are "essential personnel" and will be on duty even if there is a shutdown. Rule of thumb, if they have a badge and gun, or their job is required to maintain public safety or prevent damage to equipment/facilities (think air traffic controllers, boiler operators, etc) they will be at work (without getting their next paychecks). Interpretive Rangers, guides, campground staff, etc., (all non-essential personnel) would be furloughed. Typically, after the shutdown ends, Congress passes a bill paying everybody, whether they were furloughed or not, for their lost pay.

[johnnybgood]

IIRC 4 eyed Buzzard Game Wardens were patrolling the AT and other access points at the park then . The State bluebloods were there to invoke public safety, prevent damage , poachers from pillaging , etc.

[pilgrimskywheel]

A gov't shutdown won't affect the thru-hiker already inside the parks boundary with a permit . I don't recall anyone being escorted from SNP during the 2013 shutdown.

I'm guessing park rangers would hand out permits till the day of the impending gov't closure and would inform hikers of their responsibility in case they needed emergency services.

Pretty sure they swept folks out in 2103. Easy to do. (I arrived immediately following the shutdown, and was present at GSMNP when it opened.) I'd like to know what you are basing this info on please, as I intend to be in the vicinity. Are you just "recalling" what you guess to be true, or do you know this to be true and how?

Full disclosure: I had played with the notion of "stealthing thru" Shenny when I got there and was dissuaded by the gate guards. Local PD, and Rangers who refused to quit their posts. Turns out tickets of a discretionary fine of up to $3000 can still be issued when the Gov. is open, or shut.

[johnnybgood]

Pretty sure they swept folks out in 2103. Easy to do. (I arrived immediately following the shutdown, and was present at GSMNP when it opened.) I'd like to know what you are basing this info on please, as I intend to be in the vicinity. Are you just "recalling" what you guess to be true, or do you know this to be true and how?

Full disclosure: I had played with the notion of "stealthing thru" Shenny when I got there and was dissuaded by the gate guards. Local PD, and Rangers who refused to quit their posts. Turns out tickets of a discretionary fine of up to $3000 can still be issued when the Gov. is open, or shut.

Regarding the opening statement, I was going on information from a SNP Ranger whom I personally know. ~ Now the rest is speculative ."Guessing" implies just that .

[MuddyWaters]

The corridor owned and managed by nps, and the national parks, were closed officially.

[Alligator]

Just a reminder this is Straight Forward and the thread is about GSMNP specifically. Some material regarding SNP has been left because it has the same federal land designation--National Park.

[rafe]

I was on the c&o canal during a government shutdown and they disabled the water pumps

The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles

[colorado_rob]

Pretty sure they swept folks out in 2103. Easy to do. (I arrived immediately following the shutdown, and was present at GSMNP when it opened.) I'd like to know what you are basing this info on please, as I intend to be in the vicinity. Are you just "recalling" what you guess to be true, or do you know this to be true and how?

Full disclosure: I had played with the notion of "stealthing thru" Shenny when I got there and was dissuaded by the gate guards. Local PD, and Rangers who refused to quit their posts. Turns out tickets of a discretionary fine of up to $3000 can still be issued when the Gov. is open, or shut.No, actually they didn't "sweep" us out of SNP during the 2013 shutdown. I was there, about 2/3rds of the way through going NOBO when it "shut down". In fact, the two rangers I talked to told me to hike on, the AT does NOT close during such shutdowns. Perhaps other rangers had different ideas, and no idea what would happen in GSMNP, but I was instructed to not worry about it in SNP in 2013 and just hike. I was made aware (of course) that the waysides would be closed and to make sure I had plenty of food, but of course this just applies to SNP. Sure wish GSMNP had waysides....

[billreillyjr]

It was not vandals in this case,it was the government

[The Solemates]

Other national parks were indeed shut down. We had to divert our Grand Canyon trip to havasu. They were arresting people at the gate trying to illegally enter.

[rafe]

It was not vandals in this case,it was the government

LOL, you didn't get the ref. Never mind.

[4eyedbuzzard]

^^^ like ^^^

[Furlough]

Don't wear sandals try to avoid the scandals
Don't wanna be a bum you better chew gum


The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles

[johnnybgood]

Grabbing the proverbial wheel to keep this discussion from veering off course...

[Grampie]

I am involved in being a caretaker at the cabin at Upper Goose Pond. The cabin is owned by the National Park Service. during the last government shut down the cabin was forced to close even though it is run and staffed by all volunteers. The government was able to do this by pulling the liability insurance that covers the volunteers.

[Furlough]

I am involved in being a caretaker at the cabin at Upper Goose Pond. The cabin is owned by the National Park Service. during the last government shut down the cabin was forced to close even though it is run and staffed by all volunteers. The government was able to do this by pulling the liability insurance that covers the volunteers.

Same in SNP for PATC volunteer trail maintainers. Kinda of a double hit for me. I am a Federal Employee, was furloughed and would have loved to head up to SNP to do a combined roving patrol for both trail maintenance and backpacking during this time.
Also, proud to be part of the perceived bloated bureaucracy. If MW thinks/advocates that, then just the opposite is most likely true. :banana :)
Furlough

[Uncle Joe]

The park service isn't always impacted by shutdowns. Previous administrations didn't necessarily include them and even let states keep them open and be reimbursed later. It's political whether we like it or not. It's up to the Executive Branch. Republicans (love 'em, hate 'em...up to you) have been critical of closing parks so maybe that bodes well should it actually happen.

[scudder]

If the government shutdown happens at the end of this week, how will it impact AT hikers? Looking for your stories/memories from 2013. Please keep your politics out of this thread if you don't mind.

[Sarcasm the elf]

This should bring you to the all encompassing discussion of the 2013 shutdown.
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/98667-What-happen-if-National-Parks-close

My buddy and I hiked from the Approach trail to Hogpen gap during the 2013 shutdown. The only conspicuous difference was that the bathrooms were locked and had shutdown notices. From everything I heard only the National Parks and federally managed buildings/amenities were closed to access, they appeared to be allowing access to national forest land as well as all state and local land

[colorado_rob]

Zero impact on me even though I was in the middle of SNP when the shutdown took effect. The ranger told me to "hike on" and that the shutdown does NOT affect the Appalachian trail, but he of course advised me that the waysides were all closed. I reported on this back then and all H-E-double-hockey-sticks broke loose on this forum, folks telling me I was a liar or a law-breaker, but I laughed.

All this being said, I would think this could have an actual effect on GSMNP, given how regulated that park is. SNP seems more laid back to me.

Just my experiences, no politics.

I do, however, have to relay a story: I finished my hike just a couple days after the shutdown, at Front Royal. I saw on the news my first night off trail that a bunch of World War II veterans had "crashed" the "closed" WWII memorial in the middle of Washington DC. These 90-something heros basically tore down the "closed" tape on this little outdoor park area, which just happens to be administered by the NPS. There are no facilities there, it's just a bunch of cool outdoor exhibits and memorials. Not sure why the NPS felt a need to tape it off, but oh well. In any case, these veterans ignored the tape and had their little celebration as they apparently did there every so often. Of course, they were not hassled by cops or anyone else, in fact, they were lauded, as they should have been, by the press.

Anyway, back to me.... I was flying home from Dulles the next day, sitting in the airport waiting a few hours for my flight and suddenly I heard this huge ruckus, applauding, cheering, etc. I went over to investigate, and voila, there they were, the same bunch of 90-something veterans walking down this gauntlet of airport employees, all cheering them on. I teared up! Fantastic.

[TNhiker]

I would think this could have an actual effect on GSMNP, given how regulated that park is.



yup..............it did the last time....

[Zea]

In 2013 in NH along the AT the only difference I noticed was locked bathrooms and free parking

[Uncle Joe]

It's doubtful this administration would shutdown the park service. More likely they would remain open under the scenario of the 95-96 shutdown where states could opt to pay for them and be reimbursed when services resumed.

[Alligator]

It's doubtful this administration would shutdown the park service. More likely they would remain open under the scenario of the 95-96 shutdown where states could opt to pay for them and be reimbursed when services resumed.This happened in 2013, see this page https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/114th-congress/senate-report/124/1
. One of the park units listed in the background section was GSMNP. I did not post this to discuss the appropriateness of the linked act, but simply for the facts mentioned. I do not recall the effect the states' donations had on access to GSMNP. State money would have been put forth later in the shutdown.

[Alligator]

Threads merged. Discussion is limited to previous shutdown impacts on the Appalachian Trail, specifically access issues.

[Uncle Joe]

This happened in 2013, see this page https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/114th-congress/senate-report/124/1
. One of the park units listed in the background section was GSMNP. I did not post this to discuss the appropriateness of the linked act, but simply for the facts mentioned. I do not recall the effect the states' donations had on access to GSMNP. State money would have been put forth later in the shutdown.

I'm aware that it happened in 2013. There was much criticism at that time because the precedent from the previous shutdown was to allow parks to stay open and give states the opportunity to fund them on a temporary basis. Many in 2013 believed the parks were impacted to force public outcry and limit the duration of the shutdown by political pressure. Ultimately, it's up to the Executive to close the park service or leave it open. Hence my earlier comment that I would imagine given the current state of the Executive and Congress that the 95-96 would likely be held and impact would likely be limited. We can hope.

[BobTheBuilder]

I had a section planned in 2013 that included SNP. There was a lot of conflicting information available, even here, but the majority of reports indicated that the entrances to the park were manned and hikers were being turned away. Some reported that you could stealth your way in, but that seemed iffy. I cancelled that trip, just because I didn't want to get caught up in that mess, so it had a very real impact on my plans. I made the trip the next spring, no problems then.

[rocketsocks]

How will they keep people out of the national parks...build a wall? or just some additional border patrols?

[Alligator]

I understand what you said now Uncle Joe. They were "open" with no non-essential federal services and the states could pick up the tab but individuals could enter the area in the previous shutdown. Closed to entry (with no non-essential federal services) in the last one unless the state's picked up the tab. Closed and open to me are opposites-binary states. There's a third state of being really-call it winter maybe.

Is it closed? No, it's closed closed.

Or is the town park open? Yeah it's open until I try to go take a dump and the restroom is locked. Then it's closed. And it is winter...

Let's steer away though from the pros and cons of the state of openness under past, present, or future shutdowns as that would get political.

[LittleRock]

I was out hiking the AT during the 2013 shutdown. I started at Standing Bear and went north, avoiding the Smokies. Other hikers were telling me that you could hike through the Smokies, as long as you didn't need to park a car there or use any of the campgrounds. The park service has neither the manpower nor the will to chase down every hiker who walks into the park. Honestly, I kind of wished I'd hiked the Smokies - it would have been a rare opportunity to hike that section in peak season without all the crowds.

[Tennessee Viking]

This is NOT intended to be a political post. But there is news that Trump is going to be asking congress (and not Mexico) for the initial funding to build his wall. There is also talk that this funding issue might force a gubmint shutdown on April 28th.

Can anyone tell me how the government shutdown of 2013 affected access to GSMNP? I recall rafters trying to launch on the grand canyon on the day of the shutdown being denied access. However, those that launched prior to the shutdown were able to continue the 28 day trip even though it overlapped with the shutdown period. I imagine it would be similar for thru hikers entering GMSNP... if you can get in before the 28th then there wouldnt be a problem, but any date afterward, and there might be rangers blocking entrance.

Hopefully, this doesnt happen and wont be a concern. My start date is going to be sometime in April and I have some wiggle room on the exact date. What day would you want to start at Springer to make sure you are in GSMNP before April 28th?
I was at Fontana on vacation during the last shutdown. All trails were closed including the AT. Hikers had to shuttle from Standing Bear/I40 to Fontana Village. Only car travel along US 441 was permitted. No entry signs and barriers were setup at the major trailheads.
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/1381524_10151972731386449_1021552509_n.jpg?oh=f300 05deffb3336d991b056246e66ea3&oe=59898D62

I remember a couple stories of hikers entering the park but were quickly caught and ticketed by the Park's skeleton crew.

[illabelle]

I was at Fontana on vacation during the last shutdown. All trails were closed including the AT. Hikers had to shuttle from Standing Bear/I40 to Fontana Village. Only car travel along US 441 was permitted. No entry signs and barriers were setup at the major trailheads.
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/1381524_10151972731386449_1021552509_n.jpg?oh=f300 05deffb3336d991b056246e66ea3&oe=59898D62

I remember a couple stories of hikers entering the park but were quickly caught and ticketed by the Park's skeleton crew.

Gotta wonder, if you called the number on that sign during the shutdown, would the phone make a sound if there was no one there to hear it ring?

[TNhiker]

Gotta wonder, if you called the number on that sign during the shutdown, would the phone make a sound if there was no one there to hear it ring?



i think thats the park's dispatch number.........

[illabelle]

i think thats the park's dispatch number.........

It is. Just saying that if non-essential employees are sent home, it wouldn't make much sense to call a number that rings up a non-essential employee's office.

[TNhiker]

A dispatcher is considered essential, I think...

[Alligator]

There's usually one person stuck in the building...I know somebody who was really bored last time around. She'd a jumped on that phone from five offices down just to hear a human voice LOL.