Bear spray.

[bamadog]

Do I need bear spray?

[The Kisco Kid]

No you don't.

[BuckeyeBill]

It is a personal choice based on how you feel.

[Francis Sawyer]

Today feels like a bear spray day!

[GoldenBear]

For those walking on the A.T.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmrJx32xefM

For all six of my bear encounters while walking solo on or near the A.T., the biggest problem I've had is that they all ran away before I could even get my camera out of its holder.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I'd ballpark that less than 2% of the A.T. Hikers I see carry bear spray.

We only have black bears on the east coast. Unlike Grizzly's, black bears are not known to violently defend their young and are typically fearful of humans (of course getting between a wild animal and her offspring is never a good idea.)

[FreeGoldRush]

My wife recently organized the hiking gear closet. The bear sprayed ended up in the food and cooking drawer. Guess she thought it was most useful for spicing up trail meals.

[HooKooDooKu]

Carrying bear spray to protect yourself from a possible bear attack along the AT is about as practical as carrying anti-venom to save yourself from a snake bite along the AT...

...and I think you're slightly more likely to be bit by a poisonous snake than you are to be attacked by a bear.

[rocketsocks]

Today feels like a bear spray day!now that's! Funny :D

[Feral Bill]

In grizzly country, maybe. Yellowstone and Glacier, probably.

[MuddyWaters]

Carrying bear spray to protect yourself from a possible bear attack along the AT is about as practical as carrying anti-venom to save yourself from a snake bite along the AT...

...and I think you're slightly more likely to be bit by a poisonous snake than you are to be attacked by a bear.

Well,there is also people, where its presence can be a deterrent
And dogs

Bear spray has been successfully used to recover an AT thru hikers stolen pack from the offending bear in gsmnp, while it was in possession of said offender.

[scope]

Well,there is also people, where its presence can be a deterrent
And dogs

Bear spray has been successfully used to recover an AT thru hikers stolen pack from the offending bear in gsmnp, while it was in possession of said offender.

The latter seems like the most likely use of bear spray on the AT, but still a rare occurrence. As a "thru-hiker" topic, I can't think of hearing of an instance on the AT where bear spray might've been appropriate. There are those that fear dogs, and dogs know it and so they play their hand as only they can. Don't fear dogs and they will fear you.

[MuddyWaters]

The latter seems like the most likely use of bear spray on the AT, but still a rare occurrence. As a "thru-hiker" topic, I can't think of hearing of an instance on the AT where bear spray might've been appropriate.

Aside from numerous issues of habituated bears keeping shelter residents up all night in recent past (gsmnp and wautuga), stolen packs in gsmnp, and the hiker bitten and attempted to be dragged out of tent last spring in gsmnp, 65 yr old hiker kidnapped and asdaulted last year in shenandoah? Not much at all.

Then theres hitchhiking...

Not common
Disengenuous to pretend instances dont occur, or have head in sand

Up to every person to decide if they want the weight
But dont deny them the facts

[rocketsocks]

Aside from numerous issues of habituated bears keeping shelter residents up all night in recent past (gsmnp and wautuga), stolen packs in gsmnp, and the hiker bitten and attempted to be dragged out of tent last spring in gsmnp, 65 yr old hiker kidnapped and asdaulted last year in shenandoah? Not much at all.

Then theres hitchhiking...

Not common
Disengenuous to pretend instances dont occur, or have head in sand

Up to every person to decide if they want the weight
But dont deny them the facts...or the kid (college student) in NJ that got eatin' he prolly could have used some.

[scope]

Not trying to be disingenuous, but bears at shelters is common, always has been, and its why food is hung, or in some cases why bear canisters are required. Not aware of any safety issues there. I don't believe the other instances are thru-hiker related - am I incorrect? Point I'm trying to make is that given the population of hikers year in year out on the AT, if there was a need for bear spray we'd know it by now.

Not having my head in the sand, but not crying wolf either.

[MuddyWaters]

Not trying to be disingenuous, but bears at shelters is common, always has been, and its why food is hung, or in some cases why bear canisters are required. Not aware of any safety issues there. I don't believe the other instances are thru-hiker related - am I incorrect? Point I'm trying to make is that given the population of hikers year in year out on the AT, if there was a need for bear spray we'd know it by now.

Not having my head in the sand, but not crying wolf either.

Yes, it was a thru hiker attacked in his sleep in his tent in gsmnp last spring. He had to be taken out by rangers next day. The rangers killed a few of its friends as a warning to it. (Bears, not thru hikers)

If it had been a small woman, likely would have been a fatality. It intended to eat him.

The shelter residents nearby failed to intervene on his behalf during said nocturnal attack.


What your attitude is saying is, 1 in 10000 or so isnt worth worrying about. Maybe, unless your that 1. Thats what everyone decides for themself.

Btw that bear.....is still out there.

I dont carry bear spray. But i wont tell someone else not to. Ill tell them the likelihood of needing it is very low on AT. Not zero, low.

[scope]

Yes, it was a thru hiker attacked in his sleep in his tent in gsmnp last spring. He had to be taken out by rangers next day. The rangers killed a few of its friends as a warning to it. (Bears, not thru hikers)

If it had been a small woman, likely would have been a fatality. It intended to eat him.

The shelter residents nearby failed to intervene on his behalf during said nocturnal attack.


What your attitude is saying is, 1 in 10000 or so isnt worth worrying about. Maybe, unless your that 1. Thats what everyone decides for themself.

Btw that bear.....is still out there.

I dont carry bear spray. But i wont tell someone else not to. Ill tell them the likelihood of needing it is very low on AT. Not zero, low.

OK, let's cool it with the "attitude" talk. I asked if I was incorrect, and it appears that indeed I was. Hadn't heard of this case. Did not tell anyone to not to take anything, but rather was suggesting to have a clear set of glasses with which to determine their comfort level for doing so. Those glasses have now changed for me as well.

Oh, by the way, bears don't eat people... the bear immediately left when the guy screamed, so I kinda doubt size or gender had anything to do with that... and he was setup a fair distance away from the shelter, whose residents likely thought someone was having a bad dream IF they ever woke.

[LazyLightning]

you might not "need it" but for me a piece of mind is everything and at the very least it's giving you a little better piece of mind...

I never did much hiking, just getting into it and planning the AT next year, but **** I'm on the NET doing day section hikes and I still have my bear spray with me - I don't care how stupid or useless anybody thinks it is.

If it could stop a bear, there's a good chance it will stop any animal (or human) that poses a threat... as unlikely as it may be

I'm actually not scared of seeing a bear in the wild anymore, I'd love to get a picture... what scares me (as mentioned above) is a bear coming into the tent while asleep. I will always sleep with my bear spray/trekking poles in tent for some kind of "just incase" protection. How likely is it for any animal to try to get inside an enclosed tent, considering all food is hung at least 100 feet away from the tent?

Does anybody know, with the instances of bear's dragging people out of tents, if it's known if these people had food in their tents or not? ... Do animals generally smell humans and avoid trying to get in tents as long as they aren't smelling food?

[MuddyWaters]

Oh, by the way, bears don't eat people... the bear immediately left when the guy screamed, so I kinda doubt size or gender had anything to do with that... and he was setup a fair distance away from the shelter, whose residents likely thought someone was having a bad dream IF they ever woke.

Um....yes, black bears most definitely DO eat people.
When they are of the mind to, and have the opportunity. Quite often thats the way the positive id is made after killing suspected bear, is stomach contents. At least prior to DNA analysis.

Then again, so do household dogs...sometimes

Most bears dont.
Purely because they have never learned that they can.
Not because its against their code of ethics.

In 2015 a teenager was pulled from hammock in gsmnp by bear as well.

The bear last year didnt immediately leave, it backed off, and tried again from other angle, repeatedly. Which is typical. He was strong enough to punch its face when it pushed in on tent, this is what saved him, till it left long enough for him to go to shelter.

It returned and tore up couple of tents, etc.

Probably just a good bear having a bad night.
But the salient point is..thats all it takes

[TNhiker]

Oh, by the way, bears don't eat people..



the lady that was killed by a bear in 2000 in GSMNP-------parts of her were found inside the bear...............

[KDogg]

While I was on the trail last year I heard that someone sprayed a bear that was trying to get the food hanging in the shelter. It pissed the bear off and it scratched them. Not sure if this is true but I could see it happening. Probably just best to leave your food anywhere else but where you are sleeping and the bear spray at home.

[LazyLightning]

I'm pretty sure bear spray is meant to be a last resort defense to use if a bear comes at you... I don't think approaching bears and spraying them to go away is what it's meant for.

[MuddyWaters]

I'm pretty sure bear spray is meant to be a last resort defense to use if a bear comes at you... I don't think approaching bears and spraying them to go away is what it's meant for.

Your correct.
The effects are short lived often as well.
About 3-4 yrs ago a bear took a thru hikers pack at cosby shelter while setting up their tent in gsmnp. While a dozen or more people were present. They sucessfully used spray to go after the bear, into the bushes, and get the pack back. But each time, the bear only went away for a minute before would return. Two bears hung around the shelter all night, walking back and forth in front of opening. In spite of hollering, rocks, etc from a full + shelter. A few days later it was closed and bears relocated.

[MuddyWaters]

the lady that was killed by a bear in 2000 in GSMNP-------parts of her were found inside the bear...............

Yup.
And if one looks at the list, in the last 7 yrs there been 7 fatal attacks.
3 were consumed,. With a 4th considered predatory as well.

[nsherry61]

Yup.
And if one looks at the list, in the last 7 yrs there been 7 fatal attacks.
3 were consumed,. With a 4th considered predatory as well.
Yeah, according to Wikipedia, 7 fatal black bear attacks in all of North America, mostly in Canada and Alaska. One was a caretaker feeding a bear outside its cage.
So, what are the odds? . . . maybe a 1:10,000,000 chance? There's been what, maybe one recorded fatality actually on the AT in recorded history?

Yes, black bears have been know to eat people, unlike grizzlies that until one recent attack in Denali, AK, have not been know to be predatory toward or eat people, just smack them around and occasionally kill them.

[MuddyWaters]

Yeah, according to Wikipedia, 7 fatal black bear attacks in all of North America, mostly in Canada and Alaska. One was a caretaker feeding a bear outside its cage.
So, what are the odds? . . . maybe a 1:10,000,000 chance? There's been what, maybe one recorded fatality actually on the AT in recorded history?

Yes, black bears have been know to eat people, unlike grizzlies that until one recent attack in Denali, AK, have not been know to be predatory toward or eat people, just smack them around and occasionally kill them.

Yep
Odds of fatality are quite low. Really low.
However, a few people are concerned with bodily injury and clean underwear, not just death.

The safety pyramid reveals to us that there are hundreds of close calls , injuries, and near misses for every fatality that occurs. So the real chance of adverse encounter is about 3 orders of magnitude greater. Something like 1 in a few thousand. Which is why we have occassional incidents, near misses, etc.,we hear about.

It is only a matter of #s and time till a death occurs, statistically speaking, where risk is involved. Major construction projects even have to plan for this.

39175

[Offshore]

...or the kid (college student) in NJ that got eatin' he prolly could have used some.

It was actually a group of students from Rutgers, not a lone hiker. They probably should have read all the instructions posted all over the trailheads and state parks in northern NJ about what to do in the event of a encountering a bear. They pretty much did everything wrong, starting with continuing on towards the bear when other hikers coming from the opposite direction warned them that there was a bear ahead, to ending with the group splitting up and running away when they (not surprisingly) came upon the bear which ultimately killed one of them. Did he deserve it? Absolutely not - but did the group did not act reasonably or responsibly by any measure. If you're hiking in bear country, you need to know how to avoid an encounter and failing that, what to do to maximize your chance of a good outcome. This information is posted on almost every trail kiosk in northern NJ, along with "You Are In Bear Country" warning signs. This is especially important in a state where possession of pepper-type sprays of over 3/4 of an ounce is a violation of state law. (Discuss amongst yourselves the risk vs. reward, etc.)

[MuddyWaters]

It was actually a group of students from Rutgers, not a lone hiker. They probably should have read all the instructions posted all over the trailheads and state parks in northern NJ about what to do in the event of a encountering a bear. They pretty much did everything wrong, starting with continuing on towards the bear when other hikers coming from the opposite direction warned them that there was a bear ahead, to ending with the group splitting up and running away when they (not surprisingly) came upon the bear which ultimately killed one of them. Did he deserve it? Absolutely not - but did the group did not act reasonably or responsibly by any measure. If you're hiking in bear country, you need to know how to avoid an encounter and failing that, what to do to maximize your chance of a good outcome. This information is posted on almost every trail kiosk in northern NJ, along with "You Are In Bear Country" warning signs. This is especially important in a state where possession of pepper-type sprays of over 3/4 of an ounce is a violation of state law. (Discuss amongst yourselves the risk vs. reward, etc.)


My understanding, is upon being warned of the bear, they went looking for it, took many pictures of it, and basically got too close for the bears comfort. When bear charged them, they all ran in different directions.

100% self inflicted unfortunately.

[Lnj]

I wish there was a particular scent or sound that bears just really hate that we could just spray around our campsite before bed time or have playing softly at our campsite before bed. Just so I could sleep without worry. Most semi-educated hikers know what to do in a bear encounter... if there are awake and lucid enough to form a thought. The problem is the midnight visit when you are sound asleep and very vulnerable. How to prevent a visit after dark... that is the question.

[The Kisco Kid]

If you're concerned about creatures you might encounter on the trail I suggest bug spray over bear spray, especially this year. Lyme disease is a serious issue.

[loguon_theguy]

Carrying bear spray to protect yourself from a possible bear attack along the AT is about as practical as carrying anti-venom to save yourself from a snake bite along the AT...

...and I think you're slightly more likely to be bit by a poisonous snake than you are to be attacked by a bear.

DEFINITELY. In my 3 short years of backpacking I've had a few close encounters with Copperheads and 1 with a rattlesnake. 1 small bear that ran for its life.

[MuddyWaters]

DEFINITELY. In my 3 short years of backpacking I've had a few close encounters with Copperheads and 1 with a rattlesnake. 1 small bear that ran for its life.

Ive been driving a car a few hrs per day for 35 yrs.
Never needed a seatbelt.

Still wear it

[Sarcasm the elf]

Ive been driving a car a few hrs per day for 35 yrs.
Never needed a seatbelt.

Still wear it

Cars kill around 40,000 Americans per year. Black bears kill around 0.5 Americans per year.

Seat belts save lives.

[Uncle Joe]

As I've said before, I probably wouldn't want to hike the GSNMP or NJ without bear spray. If for no other reason than piece of mind.

[HooKooDooKu]

As I've said before, I probably wouldn't want to hike the GSNMP or NJ without bear spray. If for no other reason than piece of mind.
It has been stated many times before in White Blazes "we pack our fears" (or words to that effect).

That said, IMHO based on 25 years of experience backpacking in GSMNP, there is no practical reason for an AT thru hiker (or a GSMNP hiker) to carry bear spray to protect themselves from bears.

In the last 25 years, there have only been three major bear attacks in GSMNP... all three previously listed: woman killed, teen dragged from hammock, and AT hiker attacked in their tent.
In all three instances, bear spray would have had no effect on these bear attacks.
1. The guy in the tent had the tent to block him from spraying the bear.
2. The teen dragged from his hammock had his head in the bear's teeth. If his father had any bear spray, he couldn't have used it on the bear without also using it on his son... and the attack still would have happened.
3. It's believed the woman was attacked while taking a nap. So the attack still would have happened... and while under attack, the woman likely would not have been in a position to use the spray to thwart the attacker.

The real purpose for bear spray is to spray the face of a bear that is charging you... in other words, you have to be facing your attacker. That sort of bear attack is beyond extremely rare with black bears.

And here's the thing... for bear spray to be effective, it has to be at the ready. And in all three of these cases, the people were either known to be sleeping or believed to have been sleeping when they were attacked. So most likely, bear spray would have had no effect on the outcome of these attacks:
1. The guy in the tent, even if he had had bear spray at the ready, there was a tent between him and his attacker.
2. The teen in the hammock would have still been attacked... and given that I believe the bear had the teen's head in his teeth, had is father had bear spray and been able to get to it he bear had the teen's hea

For bear spray to be effective, you have to have it at the ready... and therefore in these three worst cases, the bear spray

GSMNP has one of the highest concentrations of bears anywhere along the AT, and in the last 25 years, there are only three major bear attacks that have occured in
Been camping in GSMNP for 25 years. In that time, the only serious bear attacks that have occurred are the three already listed above (the woman that was killed, the teenager pulled from a hammock, and the thru hiker attacked thru his tent).

Add to that, bear spray is only going to be useful if you have it ready

[MuddyWaters]

Cars kill around 40,000 Americans per year. Black bears kill around 0.5 Americans per year.

Seat belts save lives.

300 million people
1 hr per day avg in car

Each day you drive or ride in car, your chance of dieing is 3.6e-07

Statistically, zero chance. You might die once in 10000 yrs when you use car daily

Not that different from bear spray

If 300 million people spent an hr per day in bear areas thered be a few more incidents.


Point is...al you can say is odds are...you wont need it
You cannot tell someone that they wont

People drawing on their own history /experience are drawing from laughably small data pool as well.

Ive never been threatened by bear, and ive been 10 ft from one. But im smart enough to recognize it could happen, and does, with certain statistical frequency.

Im willing to take chance. Not everyone is.

[Uncle Joe]

It has been stated many times before in White Blazes "we pack our fears" (or words to that effect).

That said, IMHO based on 25 years of experience backpacking in GSMNP, there is no practical reason for an AT thru hiker (or a GSMNP hiker) to carry bear spray to protect themselves from bears.


I know the statistics and the odds are extremely low. But I can't "un-hear" what I've heard.

[Lnj]

Just drawing from the information above... I am gathering that black bears are prone to the "sneak" attack, as all 3 instances listed above were people who were asleep or appeared to be. We have also heard that conversation is a bear deterrent. So.... Here's a thought/question.... those 3 bad attacks that happened to the sleepers, I wonder if they snored at all or very loud. Could it be a very loud snorer would cause a bear to keep moving instead of investigating? I am more interested in finding out what can be done to prevent the visit to start with than the spray or whatever what to do when/if the visit happens. I would love to see a bear from a far on a hike, but not on a sleep or in my camp! Maybe if camping relatively alone from other strangers, one could play a radio very softly overnight, possibly a talk radio station? If we could just figure out how to keep them away at night and/or while we sleep, it seems we will have cured the sneaky bear attack issue.

[MuddyWaters]

Just drawing from the information above... I am gathering that black bears are prone to the "sneak" attack, as all 3 instances listed above were people who were asleep or appeared to be. We have also heard that conversation is a bear deterrent. So.... Here's a thought/question.... those 3 bad attacks that happened to the sleepers, I wonder if they snored at all or very loud. Could it be a very loud snorer would cause a bear to keep moving instead of investigating? I am more interested in finding out what can be done to prevent the visit to start with than the spray or whatever what to do when/if the visit happens. I would love to see a bear from a far on a hike, but not on a sleep or in my camp! Maybe if camping relatively alone from other strangers, one could play a radio very softly overnight, possibly a talk radio station? If we could just figure out how to keep them away at night and/or while we sleep, it seems we will have cured the sneaky bear attack issue.


The teacher killed and eaten in 2000 in gsmnp wasnt sleeping, she was hiking. Killed by sow with yearling.

Theres many reports of scary encounters on trail in gsmnp, with people being pursued or approached by bears, etc. You just dont hear of them, cause not on AT or not post here. Fortunately most end well for all involved.

[scope]

Folks have been hiking the AT and other trails for a long time with almost no issue whatsoever with regard to bears. However, I have to admit to hearing of several black bear attacks in the last several years, and now a confirmed issue on the AT, where a large portion of them involved serious injury if not fatal. In the past, it had mostly been at campgrounds, where rogue bears would venture out to, not remote trails where the bears were typically more skittish of humans. Recent activity begs the question then... is the AT becoming a campground? I mean, populated to the point where egregious errors with food are so commonplace that the trail itself, by proximity to the bear population, is turning more of them into rogue bears?

p.s. talking about the eastern US which is a totally different discussion than the west, but perhaps we might start taking cues from those out west.

[4eyedbuzzard]

http://www.bearsmart.com/about-bears/dispelling-myths/

[RockDoc]

The big statistical numbers being shown to suggest low risk doesn't take into account your risk if you enter bear habitat.

As a geologist, I know other geologists who were attacked by black bears while doing field work in wild areas, generally alone and off trail. It happens. One man fought a bear in the dark for several hours, finally killing it with his rock hammer. I heard his story in person at a professional meeting. So I would not mislead with statistics with lots of zeros...

[TNhiker]

I wish there was a particular scent or sound that bears just really hate that we could just spray around our campsite




thats just called staying at home in the house.....

[TNhiker]

3. It's believed the woman was attacked while taking a nap



i dont think that is correct....

she was taking photos (the park has these and hasnt released them to my knowledge) of the bears as they were coming towards her.....

[TNhiker]

Theres many reports of scary encounters on trail in gsmnp, with people being pursued or approached by bears, etc. You just dont hear of them, cause not on AT or not post here. Fortunately most end well for all involved.




and most of these bear encounters are people chasing after the bears to get photos..

then the bear might turn and do a bluff charge---person falls over, and sprains their ankle........

or something like that...

happens a ton of times yearly......

[Uncle Joe]

The big statistical numbers being shown to suggest low risk doesn't take into account your risk if you enter bear habitat.


I've often wondered that too. You have to compare numbers to exposure.

[HooKooDooKu]

3. It's believed the woman was attacked while taking a nap.
i dont think that is correct....

she was taking photos (the park has these and hasnt released them to my knowledge) of the bears as they were coming towards her.....
I could definitely be wrong about that... I'm going off of memory from new stories I read over 15 years ago. I must admit that I can't find any new story today that substantiates the claim... but I also can't find any new story that says she was actively taking pictures. The only thing known for sure was that there were no witnesses to her attack as her husband was down at the creek fishing while she was apparently some distance away.

[TNhiker]

I could definitely be wrong about that... I'm going off of memory from new stories I read over 15 years ago. I must admit that I can't find any new story today that substantiates the claim... but I also can't find any new story that says she was actively taking pictures. The only thing known for sure was that there were no witnesses to her attack as her husband was down at the creek fishing while she was apparently some distance away.




I covered the story for the station I was working for at the time....

and not only that---but this attack happened on a Sunday---on the Friday before--I saw the two bears near the intersection and was warned about them being aggressive...

ill do some googling later and see what I can pull up on it...

[Colter]

It's extremely easy to scare people by cherry-picking a handful of worse-case scenarios plucked from millions of people over several decades. Scaring people is the easiest of all with bears.

About 100 people a year die in horse accidents in the USA, about 1 is killed by bears. I think it's fair to say that there are far more man-days spent where there is bear risk than where there is horse risk, yet horses kill 100 times more people, and people are orders of magnitude more afraid of bears. Humans are not rational with their fears.

With about 16,929 murders a year in the US and Canada combined out of a total population of about 334,000,000, about 1 out of 19,625 people will be a murderer in a given year.

With about 3 fatal bear attacks per year in the US and Canada combined, and about 660,000 bears in the US and Canada total, about 1 out of 220,000 bears will be "murderers" in a given year. (http://bucktrack.blogspot.com/2011/02/bears-should-you-be-afraid.html)

People SHOULD be comforted by the stats with all the zeros.

If someone needs bear spray on the A.T. to sleep at night, Id' say to carry it until they are comfortable enough to get rid of it. I would definitely not carry bear spray on the A.T.

[Sarcasm the elf]

It's extremely easy to scare people by cherry-picking a handful of worse-case scenarios plucked from millions of people over several decades. Scaring people is the easiest of all with bears.

About 100 people a year die in horse accidents in the USA, about 1 is killed by bears. I think it's fair to say that there are far more man-days spent where there is bear risk than where there is horse risk, yet horses kill 100 times more people, and people are orders of magnitude more afraid of bears. Humans are not rational with their fears.

With about 16,929 murders a year in the US and Canada combined out of a total population of about 334,000,000, about 1 out of 19,625 people will be a murderer in a given year.

With about 3 fatal bear attacks per year in the US and Canada combined, and about 660,000 bears in the US and Canada total, about 1 out of 220,000 bears will be "murderers" in a given year. (http://bucktrack.blogspot.com/2011/02/bears-should-you-be-afraid.html)

People SHOULD be comforted by the stats with all the zeros.

If someone needs bear spray on the A.T. to sleep at night, Id' say to carry it until they are comfortable enough to get rid of it. I would definitely not carry bear spray on the A.T.

+1

Thank you.

[Tomf32541]

Last fall did an AT section hike in GA. I live in western NC and all summer there had been several bear issues in the wilderness areas and the national forests which got a lot of airtime on local news outlets. Since I was backpacking alone, my wife insisted on me having bear spray, something I really didn't want to carry. On my section hike I was the only one staying in or around the shelter for three consecutive nights. It was kind of strange being the only one there. Having the spray gave me some peace of mind so I slept pretty well. No bears came around and neither did any mice.

[Lnj]

And still no answer or thoughts, opinions, etc on whether or not a loud snorer would attract, deter or have no effect at all on a curious bear. I swear I think my husband sounds like a bear when he snores, and he has said the same about me. Wonder if a bear would think this campsite is already taken if they heard it or think "humans, gotta go". Am I the first to ever consider the question?

Staying home is not an option for me. I am just curious is all.

[QiWiz]

In grizzly country, maybe. Yellowstone and Glacier, probably.

+1 No need for bear spray in black bear country.

[rocketsocks]

It's extremely easy to scare people by cherry-picking a handful of worse-case scenarios plucked from millions of people over several decades. Scaring people is the easiest of all with bears.

About 100 people a year die in horse accidents in the USA, about 1 is killed by bears. I think it's fair to say that there are far more man-days spent where there is bear risk than where there is horse risk, yet horses kill 100 times more people, and people are orders of magnitude more afraid of bears. Humans are not rational with their fears.

With about 16,929 murders a year in the US and Canada combined out of a total population of about 334,000,000, about 1 out of 19,625 people will be a murderer in a given year.

With about 3 fatal bear attacks per year in the US and Canada combined, and about 660,000 bears in the US and Canada total, about 1 out of 220,000 bears will be "murderers" in a given year. (http://bucktrack.blogspot.com/2011/02/bears-should-you-be-afraid.html)

People SHOULD be comforted by the stats with all the zeros.

If someone needs bear spray on the A.T. to sleep at night, Id' say to carry it until they are comfortable enough to get rid of it. I would definitely not carry bear spray on the A.T.no need to cherry pick, there aren't that many instances, but the ones that do exsist were 100% fatal. Horses are largely domestic animals, but for the circus bears are not...attacks happen there too. The fact remains if you come across an aggressive bear and don't have a rock, big stick, prepared to throw down, or some bear spray, science tells us it dosent end well for you. Now since you took a shot at people's sensibilities lemme just say this. I'm aware of your back ground in Alaska, awesome! But isn't all this flexing just a look at me I'm not afraid of bears?

[Colter]

"no need to cherry pick, there aren't that many instances" Focusing on those incredibly rare, once-in-millions-of-lifetimes events is the very definition of cherry picking.

Most people would agree that it is good to not be afraid of flying. Some would argue that 100% of fatal plane crashes don't end well, so the fear is justified, but flying is still "safe." And flying is dramatically more dangerous than black bears on the A.T.

"But isn't all this flexing just a look at me I'm not afraid of bears?" No, it's not. All of us have an irrational level of fear of something. I want to ease people's fear of bears. I think that's a good thing.

[rickb]

Most people would agree that it is good to not be afraid of flying. Some would argue that 100% of fatal plane crashes don't end well, so the fear is justified, but flying is still "safe." And flying is dramatically more dangerous than black bears on the A.T.
And yet being a commercial pilot or flight engineer is accepted to be the third most dangerous profession (fatality wise) in this country -- only after commercial fisherman and loggers.

Bears pose a super small risk on the AT, of course. That said, some of the anecdotal accounts of negative interactions in the east seem to be increasing -- not a bad reminder for people like me who have been thinking of them as no more of a danger than a spruce grouse.

[Offshore]

The big statistical numbers being shown to suggest low risk doesn't take into account your risk if you enter bear habitat.

As a geologist, I know other geologists who were attacked by black bears while doing field work in wild areas, generally alone and off trail. It happens. One man fought a bear in the dark for several hours, finally killing it with his rock hammer. I heard his story in person at a professional meeting. So I would not mislead with statistics with lots of zeros...
I'm a geologist who's worked in the NE (Maine to NJ) for 33 years and neither had a issue myself nor heard of an issue among the the professional community in that time. (Lots of Lyme, but no bears...) Almost without exception, the bear issues reported have been associated with recreational users who did not bother to learn or refused to observe "bear safe" behaviors.

My advice to people wondering about bear safety is to ignore every bit of advice you find in a forum like this and look to the experts in your local area - park managers, rangers, etc. Sites like this are really just opinion sites that are heavy on anecdotal information and ideology. Looking at this site, one one hand you have the self-recognized experts who pontificate how its just fine to sleep with your food in bear territory, while on the the hand, are the risk assessment "pros" who are clutching their pearls in fear. Hiking and backpacking are not without risks, so go to recognized, verifiable, and credible sources for your data needed to mitigate the risks to point acceptable to you. If bear spray makes you feel better, take it (but be aware of the limitations). If you can't mitigate the risk, then stay home.

[Uncle Joe]

My advice to people wondering about bear safety is to ignore every bit of advice you find in a forum like this and look to the experts in your local area - park managers, rangers, etc. Sites like this are really just opinion sites that are heavy on anecdotal information and ideology. Looking at this site, one one hand you have the self-recognized experts who pontificate how its just fine to sleep with your food in bear territory, while on the the hand, are the risk assessment "pros" who are clutching their pearls in fear. Hiking and backpacking are not without risks, so go to recognized, verifiable, and credible sources for your data needed to mitigate the risks to point acceptable to you. If bear spray makes you feel better, take it (but be aware of the limitations). If you can't mitigate the risk, then stay home.

Good point! Take the advice of someone who has worked in the park service or otherwise in bear country for decades over anyone in a forum.

[Colter]

And yet being a commercial pilot or flight engineer is accepted to be the third most dangerous profession (fatality wise) in this country -- only after commercial fisherman and loggers.

Bears pose a super small risk on the AT, of course. That said, some of the anecdotal accounts of negative interactions in the east seem to be increasing -- not a bad reminder for people like me who have been thinking of them as no more of a danger than a spruce grouse.

Fair enough. It's important to distinguish between the types of flying, which I didn't do. The type of flying most of us do, in jets from city to city, is very safe, even for the pilots. The commercial pilot stats are from a valid source but are a bit misleading, because those stats apparently include things like "bush flights" and crop dusting, firefighting, life-flights, and things of that nature. (http://money.cnn.com/gallery/pf/jobs/2013/08/22/dangerous-jobs/3.html)

I think that flying fire retardant planes is the most dangerous job in the U.S. by far.

[Traveler]

It still boils down to how one feels about bear spray overall. If you feel better having it with you, then carry it. My daughter carries spray with her most of the time because it makes her feel a bit more secure. Oddly, the only one who has taken issue was a guy who came by us during a lunch break with a side arm jauntily hanging from a holster who, on seeing the bear spray can said there was no need for bear spray and it was silly to carry the weight.

Some stuff you just can't make up.....

[Ethesis]

"no need to cherry pick, there aren't that many instances" Focusing on those incredibly rare, once-in-millions-of-lifetimes events is the very definition of cherry picking.

Most people would agree that it is good to not be afraid of flying. Some would argue that 100% of fatal plane crashes don't end well, so the fear is justified, but flying is still "safe." And flying is dramatically more dangerous than black bears on the A.T.

"But isn't all this flexing just a look at me I'm not afraid of bears?" No, it's not. All of us have an irrational level of fear of something. I want to ease people's fear of bears. I think that's a good thing.

nicely said.

The spray is rather light. Of everyone at the shelter with me this morning, only my wife has it clipped to her pack.

Ive got some in my medical kit.

[Ethesis]

BTW Tom Floyd Wayside is nice. Two of the others here claim to snore.

All I can say is the rain and the birds are a lot louder.

[Offshore]

And then there's this: https://www.reddit.com/r/hiking/comments/68eec3/hiking_with_bears/?st=j24lzxph&sh=5bd7f6d0
A ohoto of three dopes taking a selfie with their backs to and standing below a bear who they had spooked up onto a ledge. (and the post is getting upvoted on Reddit by more idiots). It's probably a similar picture to the selfies found on the phone belonging to the college kid killed by a bear in the Apshawa Preserve in NJ a couple of years ago. (Somehow I don't think they were used in a memorial photo montage at the funeral home...)

[speedbump]

Prob not, but I carry it anyway. Get lots of comments from other hikers. Don't really care, it is not only for bears. If you feel safer with it, that is your choice.

[Colter]

And then there's this: https://www.reddit.com/r/hiking/comments/68eec3/hiking_with_bears/?st=j24lzxph&sh=5bd7f6d0
A ohoto of three dopes taking a selfie with their backs to and standing below a bear who they had spooked up onto a ledge. (and the post is getting upvoted on Reddit by more idiots). It's probably a similar picture to the selfies found on the phone belonging to the college kid killed by a bear in the Apshawa Preserve in NJ a couple of years ago. (Somehow I don't think they were used in a memorial photo montage at the funeral home...)


Of course you are right in that as a rule of thumb taking a selfie with a bear is unwise. :)

In this case I don't think taking the photo was a significant risk.

They came upon the bear by chance.
It immediately fled.
It's a significant distance away.
There's no indication the people approached any closer.
The bear is up high, where it feels safe. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a million or more photos of bears in trees taken from much closer range.
The humans appear non-threatening.


The Apshawa Preserve incident is literally one of those [far less than] one in a million cases. The bear approached the preceding group, and then THEM. And they took the photos in the midst of retreating. What they did wrong, and it's hard to blame them, is to run. Splitting up made it worse.

What really made this situation different is a crazy bear, and they are extremely rare, much rarer than homicidal people. As I mentioned above, humans are about 10 time as dangerous as bears on a PER CAPITA basis.


Prob not, but I carry it anyway. Get lots of comments from other hikers. Don't really care, it is not only for bears. If you feel safer with it, that is your choice.

No doubt.

[Harmless]

This is my favorite line: "If someone needs bear spray on the A.T. to sleep at night, Id' say to carry it."

I was personally harassed by a pair of bears from about 10 PM until dawn, while solo camping in the Smokies many years ago. All night long, they'd creep closer until they were about 10' away. I'd turn on my penlight, throw a rock, yell, and they'd back off to about 20'. You could argue that I didn't get hurt and I should find this comforting. It was almost 40 years ago. Still today, if I hear just the wrong sound at night, my pulse goes up to about 200 BPM. (Call it PBST - Post Bear Stress Disorder.)

I simply can't hike/camp in the Smokies without carrying bear spray. I can barely hike solo in the Smokies *with* it. So yeah, objectively, you probably don't need bear spray. It's all subjective. If you think you'll have a better hike with it -- carry it. The day it ceases to enhance your trip, dispose of it responsibly.

[Offshore]

The Apshawa Preserve incident is literally one of those [far less than] one in a million cases. The bear approached the preceding group, and then THEM. And they took the photos in the midst of retreating. What they did wrong, and it's hard to blame them, is to run. Splitting up made it worse.

Actually, they did approach the bear. They continued on the trail even after being warned by another group of hikers that there was a bear ahead that followed them and was acting aggressively. That's where the stupidity started.

[rickb]

The most disconcerting bear encounter I recall hearing about on the AT was the one related by Peachpeak, because he was a thruhiker who seemed to be doing everything right.

He shared some of his experience directly with Whiteblaze here (beginning with post 114):

https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/118751-Bear-bites-Appalachian-Trail-thru-hiker-in-the-Smokies-WBIR-com/page6

While the risk from bears on the AT is super small, I think the reality is that a great many solo hikers feel uncomfortable camping far away from others-- to the point they simply don't due it much at all.

Would you all agree with that, or is my observation dated and colored by what I see among weekenders in the Whites?

If I am right, a canister of bear spray at hand in one's tent at night could offer enough psychological comfort to open up more camping possibilities. Which would make it a very worthwhile thing to have.

A light weight canister of law enforcement quality OC Pepper Spray might be enough for that purpose, too.

[Uncle Joe]

Bottom line is if you feel you should carry it, carry it. Don't let anyone on WB talk you either into or out of carrying bear spray in bear country.

[BuckeyeBill]

To Rickb:

The type of pepper spray use by law enforcement discharges as a stream with an effective range of 10-12 feet. The only mace you see used by police officers that is a spray/cloud is the same strength, but the canister is much larger i.e. riot size canister. Bear spray can be carried, but is limited to 7.9 oz. I agree that the psychological aspect may offer comfort to those who choose to carry it.

[scope]

Actually, they did approach the bear. They continued on the trail even after being warned by another group of hikers that there was a bear ahead that followed them and was acting aggressively. That's where the stupidity started.

I guess I'm pretty stupid, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDPlkAWI1jI

[Francis Sawyer]

Cars don't kill people. People kill people.

[Francis Sawyer]

Ummm that last one was supposed to come with the quote from sarcasm the elf but blew it.

[rocketsocks]

Bottom line is if you feel you should carry it, carry it. Don't let anyone on WB talk you either into or out of carrying bear spray in bear country.This ^^^^^^^

[Colter]

The most disconcerting bear encounter I recall hearing about on the AT was the one related by Peachpeak, because he was a thruhiker who seemed to be doing everything right...

Like the hiker in that bear attack, which is apparently the worst bear experience in decades of AT thru-hiker history, I was doing everything right but was attacked and mauled on my hike last summer. Like that hiker, I was bitten on the right calf but was walking soon thereafter. I still have those scars on my leg today: four canine tooth marks.

Unlike him, I was bitten by a dog. If it had been a bear, it would have been reported across all the hiking forums and almost certainly have made the news across multiple outlets. People would say I was lucky to be alive. Dogs kill about 20 times more people than bears in the U.S., and maul a thousand times as many, at least. The difference is in perception, not risk.


If I am right, a canister of bear spray at hand in one's tent at night could offer enough psychological comfort to open up more camping possibilities. Which would make it a very worthwhile thing to have...

I think you are right. No one needs anyone's permission to carry bear spray on the A.T. if it makes them feel better.

[rickb]

Like the hiker in that bear attack, which is apparently the worst bear experience in decades of AT thru-hiker history...
Or the best, depending on your perspective:

https://peachpeak.wordpress.com

I respect how Peachpeak handled the situation -- actually, admire might be a better word. How cool for him to know just a bit more about what he is made of.

[MuddyWaters]

Bottom line is if you feel you should carry it, carry it. Don't let anyone on WB talk you either into or out of carrying bear spray in bear country.
Yes

But if you havent gone looking for facts, some wont offer them to you.

[Alligator]

...
While the risk from bears on the AT is super small, I think the reality is that a great many solo hikers feel uncomfortable camping far away from others-- to the point they simply don't due it much at all.

Would you all agree with that, or is my observation dated and colored by what I see among weekenders in the Whites?

If I am right, a canister of bear spray at hand in one's tent at night could offer enough psychological comfort to open up more camping possibilities. Which would make it a very worthwhile thing to have.

A light weight canister of law enforcement quality OC Pepper Spray might be enough for that purpose, too.I much prefer to not have other hikers around when solo hiking.

The Whites are very busy on weekends yes? Campsites also have restrictions? That you observe solo hikers camping near others does not suggest to me that they are uncomfortable being alone.

I have seen 6 or 7 bears on the AT on three occasions. Two of those were a mother with cub(s). I don't carry bear spray on the AT.

[perdidochas]

The most disconcerting bear encounter I recall hearing about on the AT was the one related by Peachpeak, because he was a thruhiker who seemed to be doing everything right.

He shared some of his experience directly with Whiteblaze here (beginning with post 114):

https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/118751-Bear-bites-Appalachian-Trail-thru-hiker-in-the-Smokies-WBIR-com/page6

While the risk from bears on the AT is super small, I think the reality is that a great many solo hikers feel uncomfortable camping far away from others-- to the point they simply don't due it much at all.

Would you all agree with that, or is my observation dated and colored by what I see among weekenders in the Whites?

If I am right, a canister of bear spray at hand in one's tent at night could offer enough psychological comfort to open up more camping possibilities. Which would make it a very worthwhile thing to have.

A light weight canister of law enforcement quality OC Pepper Spray might be enough for that purpose, too.

Bear spray actually has less concentration of OC (the active ingredient) than does either civilian or law enforcement pepper sprays. Bears (and dogs) are more sensitive to the pepper spray than humans are. The main difference is sheer amounts of the spray and the range--bear spray typically produces a cloud of pepper fog at about 30 feet. I wouldn't trust the small spray for bears--the small spray has a range of 10-15 feet at most. That said, I wouldn't worry about bear spray in the Appalachians, your views may vary.

[Jayne]

I'm a geologist who's worked in the NE (Maine to NJ) for 33 years and neither had a issue myself nor heard of an issue among the the professional community in that time. (Lots of Lyme, but no bears...) Almost without exception, the bear issues reported have been associated with recreational users who did not bother to learn or refused to observe "bear safe" behaviors.



My advice to people wondering about bear safety is to ignore every bit of advice you find in a forum like this and look to the experts in your local area - park managers, rangers, etc. Sites like this are really just opinion sites that are heavy on anecdotal information and ideology. Looking at this site, one one hand you have the self-recognized experts who pontificate how its just fine to sleep with your food in bear territory, while on the the hand, are the risk assessment "pros" who are clutching their pearls in fear. Hiking and backpacking are not without risks, so go to recognized, verifiable, and credible sources for your data needed to mitigate the risks to point acceptable to you. If bear spray makes you feel better, take it (but be aware of the limitations). If you can't mitigate the risk, then stay home.

So you're saying we should carry spray and a gun like the park rangers?

[Jayne]

IMHO this is just a case of gross mismanagement by the park services. Black bear population in the GSMNP and New Jersey is way over the healthy carrying capacity and increasing yearly. Bears are adaptive apex predators, when they are hungry they will find food. Sick and old bears that are starving will do "abnormal" things like attempt to prey on hikers if they are hungry enough. Until they allow hunting to maintain a healthy population level this problem will continue to get worse. Being in the wilderness isn't risk free and you have to make informed decisions about what risks to take and how to mitigate them. If 8 oz helps you get a good night sleep then I say it's worth the weight but understand that it's not some sort of magic shield that will protect you from bears. You have to be able to deploy it successfully and it doesn't always work. There are plenty of examples of bears being scared away by spray and coming back later to try again. I don't think it's worth carrying myself.

[Alligator]

So you're saying we should carry spray and a gun like the park rangers?No need to segue into a gun thread here.

The risk for park rangers is much different because they are called to problem situations. They have an aggregate risk stemming from every visitors chance of contact and subsequent call. Similarly, unless you have some kind of heart implant, I doubt anyone carries an AED. It'll be on the ambulance a hiker is transported in though perhaps even available sooner depending on the situation.

[Time Zone]

Bear spray actually has less concentration of OC (the active ingredient) than does either civilian or law enforcement pepper sprays. Bears (and dogs) are more sensitive to the pepper spray than humans are. The main difference is sheer amounts of the spray and the range--bear spray typically produces a cloud of pepper fog at about 30 feet. I wouldn't trust the small spray for bears--the small spray has a range of 10-15 feet at most. That said, I wouldn't worry about bear spray in the Appalachians, your views may vary.

I beg to differ, in part.

According to one manufacturer, it's not the OC but the % of major capsaicinoids that matter.
https://www.sabrered.com/formulations-heat-strength-and-law
my personal pepper spray is 1.33%; my bear spray - made by a different manufacturer - is 2.0%.

So if it's true that major capsaicinoids are the true measure, then the bear spray is stronger, and as you note, more voluminous, and with greater range.

Another point, sometimes made, but often overlooked - "fatality by bear" is not the only risk that bear-spray carrying hikers seek to reduce. If it was, I'd more readily leave bear spray at home when hiking in bear country. But it's not the only concern. "Injury by bear" is another. Reducing risk of fatality or injury at the hands of other dangerous animals might be an unintended side benefit too.

Plus it looks cool in a holster. ;)

[MuddyWaters]

IMHO this is just a case of gross mismanagement by the park services. Black bear population in the GSMNP and New Jersey is way over the healthy carrying capacity and increasing yearly. Bears are adaptive apex predators, when they are hungry they will find food. Sick and old bears that are starving will do "abnormal" things like attempt to prey on hikers if they are hungry enough. Until they allow hunting to maintain a healthy population level this problem will continue to get worse. Being in the wilderness isn't risk free and you have to make informed decisions about what risks to take and how to mitigate them. If 8 oz helps you get a good night sleep then I say it's worth the weight but understand that it's not some sort of magic shield that will protect you from bears. You have to be able to deploy it successfully and it doesn't always work. There are plenty of examples of bears being scared away by spray and coming back later to try again. I don't think it's worth carrying myself.

its not the bears that are over capacity, its the people in their home.
We need to reduce people.

[Jayne]

its not the bears that are over capacity, its the people in their home.
We need to reduce people.

Bear population in GSMNP is 1500-1600 bears according to the park website, or a density of 2 bears per square mile. When there is not enough natural food sources to support the population density the bears they either starve to death or look for other alternatives. This is why bear attacks are more common in the spring / early summer (May and June being the most common months) - the bears are hungry and the fall food sources haven't started producing yet. Fewer people doesn't create more food for the bears.

[BuckeyeBill]

Bear population in GSMNP is 1500-1600 bears according to the park website, or a density of 2 bears per square mile. When there is not enough natural food sources to support the population density the bears they either starve to death or look for other alternatives. This is why bear attacks are more common in the spring / early summer (May and June being the most common months) - the bears are hungry and the fall food sources haven't started producing yet. Fewer people doesn't create more food for the bears.

While it may seem that what you are saying is true, there are numerous times when hikers run across a berry bush or wild strawberries and start stuffing their mouths and their bags with the bounty. What they fail to realize is this is the exact food that the bears live on. Too many people think all bears live on meat by killing other animals. another case of failing to educate ones self. Also you half to remember we are not hiking our trail, we are walking through their home.

[Colter]

Average number of serious injuries in the park Great Smoky Mountains National Park each year (https://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/safety.htm):
Motor vehicle accidents - 50
Walking or hiking accidents - 38
Bicycle accidents - 16
Falls from waterfalls - 9
Horse related - 7
Tubing related - 5
Bee Sting reaction - 4

[Offshore]

I guess I'm pretty stupid, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDPlkAWI1jI

You said it, not me...

[Heliotrope]

Ive been driving a car a few hrs per day for 35 yrs.
Never needed a seatbelt.

Still wear it

Haha! Good point.

When you are the one that was ejected through the windshield or attacked by the bear your perspective may be very different. Regardless of the stats.

I don't carry spray but I would consider it in NJ and GSMNP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Offshore]

So you're saying we should carry spray and a gun like the park rangers?

If you have a firearm permit and bear spray is legal in your state, and you feel you need them to mitigate real or perceived risks, go for it.

[scope]

You said it, not me...

Which, of course, IS a manner of saying it, so thank you for that.

Given what I now know, I would carry bear spray - for sure in the Smokies if not anywhere on the AT or any other bear territory trail. So, if I had bear spray on this trip, you know what would've changed about the video? Nothing. I fail to understand why making the video makes me stupid, or for that matter, why the other boys in the selfie pic were stupid. Because they were doing something other than running (i.e. showing fear)?

[Offshore]

Which, of course, IS a manner of saying it, so thank you for that.
Given what I now know, I would carry bear spray - for sure in the Smokies if not anywhere on the AT or any other bear territory trail. So, if I had bear spray on this trip, you know what would've changed about the video? Nothing. I fail to understand why making the video makes me stupid, or for that matter, why the other boys in the selfie pic were stupid. Because they were doing something other than running (i.e. showing fear)?

I don't know why at 53 years old you need to come to an anonymous board to seek affirmation from strangers to carry bear spray. Will you need it? - probably not. If park police in NJ (where possession is illegal) catch you with it will there be an issue? - depends on the officer. Bottom line is that you need to do what puts you in your comfort zone - and don't worry about what others think. If having it reduces anxiety and makes for a more enjoyable experience, that in and of itself is a reason to bring it - and there is nothing wrong with that decision.

[Alligator]

Two black bears per square mile is an interesting number. There's about 70 miles of the AT in GSMNP. Each person completing the park therefore passes through on average, the habitat of 140 bears. The low end of the average life span for a black bear is 10 years but they can live up to 30 years. Another rough estimate then is that ~90% are 1+ years. Adults big enough to eat you. Bears are faster than people with a great sense of smell too. Although not real hard to catch wind of stinky hikers. Hikers are literally walking through a hungry bears den every step of the way. Plus the other millions of park users annually are similarly at risk. Yet what, is it 2 deaths total from bear attacks?

I only saw one of those 140 bears I was passing near. I looked up to see why a stick or nut had fallen from a tree about 15 or so feet away. A black bear was sliding down the tree like a firefighter. I ran for my life. When I looked back at the bear...it was running for its life too...the other way.

[TNhiker]

Yet what, is it 2 deaths total from bear attacks?



one in the park............one outside the park in the cherokee national forest.........



When I looked back at the bear...it was running for its life too...the other way.



the bears that are not familiar with humans-----they will run (generally) before they see or smell ya......

[scope]

I don't know why at 53 years old you need to come to an anonymous board to seek affirmation from strangers to carry bear spray. Will you need it? - probably not. If park police in NJ (where possession is illegal) catch you with it will there be an issue? - depends on the officer. Bottom line is that you need to do what puts you in your comfort zone - and don't worry about what others think. If having it reduces anxiety and makes for a more enjoyable experience, that in and of itself is a reason to bring it - and there is nothing wrong with that decision.

I get the impression that you don't listen very well.


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[Sarcasm the elf]

Now for a bit of levity.

39214

[handlebar]

I only saw one of those 140 bears I was passing near. I looked up to see why a stick or nut had fallen from a tree about 15 or so feet away. A black bear was sliding down the tree like a firefighter. I ran for my life. When I looked back at the bear...it was running for its life too...the other way.

Running away from a bear is a very bad idea. First, bears can run at 35mph for a short time, they can easily catch you. Second, if you're running they may see you as prey.

[Jayne]

If you have a firearm permit and bear spray is legal in your state, and you feel you need them to mitigate real or perceived risks, go for it.

I don't carry either while hiking. The odds of it being helpful seem pretty remote to me. I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of our government officials.

[scope]

Now for a bit of levity.

39214

Needed that LOL, thx!


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[Alligator]

Running away from a bear is a very bad idea. First, bears can run at 35mph for a short time, they can easily catch you. Second, if you're running they may see you as prey.Yeah ok thanks I already knew that. It was all over in about three seconds. I had gotten used to occasional buckeye nuts dropping but either a branch fell or a nut hit a branch on the ground. It was slightly off in the pattern so to speak and as I was continuing forward, I looked up to see the bear coming down the trunk. About 15 feet away. Yes you are not supposed to run but the brain will activate a lot of your more basic neurons and your feet are going to be moving before some of the higher brain areas process anything. It went something like THuD "Why is that stick moving on the ground did it fall ..." looks up "WFT is that..." feet moving rapidly " thing...sliding? down the tree oh it's a bear..." brain begins processing "..about 100 lbs probably a yearling" slowing down, looking back "or a small female". Stopping. Call out to hiking partner who was trailing that I had just seen a bear and to be alert. I've been bears other times and just stopped to look at them.

I almost stepped on a rattlesnake once. It was around dusk, I was thinking I was close to my ending point so I didn't have my headlamp out. Snake was crossing the trail. I jumped back and was about 15-20 feet away before my brain processed that my foot had been in the air moving towards stepping on the snake when it rattled. Instant response.

[Alligator]

I don't carry either while hiking. The odds of it being helpful seem pretty remote to me. I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of our government officials.That's just out of line. Park rangers are law enforcement officers. They run into some of the same criminal activity that regular police officers do, in both the parks and forests, including drunks, drugs, and violent criminals. Plus they are the ones that get called if there is a nuisance bear. They may have to actually do something about a bear rather than just being able to walk away from the situation. A different level of risk and an uncalled for comment.

[scope]

I don't know why at 53 years old you need to come to an anonymous board to seek affirmation from strangers to carry bear spray. Will you need it? - probably not. If park police in NJ (where possession is illegal) catch you with it will there be an issue? - depends on the officer. Bottom line is that you need to do what puts you in your comfort zone - and don't worry about what others think. If having it reduces anxiety and makes for a more enjoyable experience, that in and of itself is a reason to bring it - and there is nothing wrong with that decision.

So, I'm trying to understand why my age has anything to do with anything. I probably shouldn't be bothered about it, but the more I think about it, the more I am bothered about it. I'm trying to understand the thought process that leads you to believe that I'm want of affirmation here with regard to bear spray. Based on the NJ reference, I think you may be getting my post mixed up with someone else's - you know you can select multiple posts to quote, right?

Basically, I fail to see ANY reference to what you said having ANY tie to what I said. Why the attitude?

[Alligator]

So, I'm trying to understand why my age has anything to do with anything. I probably shouldn't be bothered about it, but the more I think about it, the more I am bothered about it. I'm trying to understand the thought process that leads you to believe that I'm want of affirmation here with regard to bear spray. Based on the NJ reference, I think you may be getting my post mixed up with someone else's - you know you can select multiple posts to quote, right?

Basically, I fail to see ANY reference to what you said having ANY tie to what I said. Why the attitude?
Offshore is referring to NJ because you said "...any other bear territory." Lots of bears in NJ and the AT runs through there. Saw a bear there myself, coming up to a small hill. I glanced up the hill, saw an animal and stopped. Immediate thought was "Is that a dog...no heads too big. It's a gangly looking bear, not fully filled out. I tried to ease my camera out but as soon as I moved it took off to the right. I proceeded up the hill. As I am nearing the top, in the bushes on my left I hear something rustling. I look over to see patches of black fur slowly moving through the bushes. I didn't see it fully, but judging from how high off the ground the fur was, I judged it to be a really big bear, and likely a momma bear as the other bear while not a cub, was not full grown. I was also now in the middle of both bears, so I kept walking. Just after the top of the hill, the trail turned LEFT, the same way the momma bear was walking. At which point I just stoppedd and waited for her to trundle off. Which she did.

[scope]

Offshore is referring to NJ because you said "...any other bear territory."...

Nah, failing to see ANY direct correlation. Maybe a made up one. Just don't like my words being twisted, that's all.

[Alligator]

Which, of course, IS a manner of saying it, so thank you for that.

Given what I now know, I would carry bear spray - for sure in the Smokies if not anywhere on the AT or any other bear territory trail. So, if I had bear spray on this trip, you know what would've changed about the video? Nothing. I fail to understand why making the video makes me stupid, or for that matter, why the other boys in the selfie pic were stupid. Because they were doing something other than running (i.e. showing fear)?

I don't know why at 53 years old you need to come to an anonymous board to seek affirmation from strangers to carry bear spray. Will you need it? - probably not. If park police in NJ (where possession is illegal) catch you with it will there be an issue? - depends on the officer. Bottom line is that you need to do what puts you in your comfort zone - and don't worry about what others think. If having it reduces anxiety and makes for a more enjoyable experience, that in and of itself is a reason to bring it - and there is nothing wrong with that decision.

So, I'm trying to understand why my age has anything to do with anything. I probably shouldn't be bothered about it, but the more I think about it, the more I am bothered about it. I'm trying to understand the thought process that leads you to believe that I'm want of affirmation here with regard to bear spray. Based on the NJ reference, I think you may be getting my post mixed up with someone else's - you know you can select multiple posts to quote, right?
Basically, I fail to see ANY reference to what you said having ANY tie to what I said. Why the attitude?

Nah, failing to see ANY direct correlation. Maybe a made up one. Just don't like my words being twisted, that's all.Let me start by saying that use of the phrase "if not" can be ambiguous.

The usage authority Bryan A. Garner says “if not” can mean either “but not” or “maybe even.”Writing in Garner’s Modern American Usage (3rd ed.), he says it’s “often an ambiguous phrase to be avoided.” In your first quoted post, it appears to me that you mean "maybe even". Your statement is that you will would now carry bear spray in GSMNP and maybe even the whole AT or other bear territory trail. Your use of "if not" to mean "but not" really doesn't appear to be your meaning. So when you said "Based on the NJ reference,..." I pointed out why Offshore was using NJ as a reference. I was not providing agreement with his interpretation of your switch to now wanting to carry spray that occurred while talking to strangers on an anonymous board. (The part in italics is true, the rest I don't know.) But yes he was talking to you.
As far as your video, and to get the discussion back to bear spray, if you had been carrying bear spray, you should have done something different for sure. You would have moved it from its holster to your hand immediately upon spotting that bear. Otherwise it would have been useless. If that bear wanted to attack you, it could cover that ground in 1-2 seconds. You want to put out a cloud that bear will contact. Read the instructions if you get one, I read a set some time ago but can't recall all of it. You wouldn't want to be fumbling for the spray while the bear is biting your neck. I will not call it stupid, but the other thing you might have done differently was to not get another inch closer to that bear. As you had your camera out, it's not clear when you first saw the bear and whether you continued moving forward upon doing so. You did move forward slightly to get a better video of the bear. It appears in the video that your movement caused the bear to look back a few times and even stop. Left off the trail would likely have been a better route. Your intended direction of travel is not important at that stage.
Tips from GSMNP:
https://www.nps.gov/grsm/learn/nature/black-bears.htm

[Alligator]

And lay off the personal attacks too folks.

[perdidochas]

I beg to differ, in part.

According to one manufacturer, it's not the OC but the % of major capsaicinoids that matter.
https://www.sabrered.com/formulations-heat-strength-and-law
my personal pepper spray is 1.33%; my bear spray - made by a different manufacturer - is 2.0%.

So if it's true that major capsaicinoids are the true measure, then the bear spray is stronger, and as you note, more voluminous, and with greater range.

Another point, sometimes made, but often overlooked - "fatality by bear" is not the only risk that bear-spray carrying hikers seek to reduce. If it was, I'd more readily leave bear spray at home when hiking in bear country. But it's not the only concern. "Injury by bear" is another. Reducing risk of fatality or injury at the hands of other dangerous animals might be an unintended side benefit too.

Plus it looks cool in a holster. ;)
Bear spray can't be more than 2% OC. Human spray can be 15% OC (3% MC).

http://www.udap.com/mm5/category/worlds-hottest-pepper-sprays

[zippyd8]

It depends where you're hiking

[MuddyWaters]

I only saw one of those 140 bears I was passing near. I looked up to see why a stick or nut had fallen from a tree about 15 or so feet away. A black bear was sliding down the tree like a firefighter. I ran for my life. When I looked back at the bear...it was running for its life too...the other way.
I heard rustling in a treetop next to trail while hiking once. Way up. Like 50 ft up.
So I stopped, looked around, looked up and seen something moving and limbs a shaking. . I thinks....thats a really big racoon. Its coming down the trunk and i realizes its a bear. So I yells, " hey bear, stay in that tree". It dont pay no attention. Down it comes butt first in just a couple seconds.. When it gets even with me, 5 ft off ground or so, it looks at me and we stare at each other for a second or so, its about 10 ft from me. I said something like " shoo bear" , dont remember exactly. It drops to ground with a thud, and takes off in other direction like bat out of hell.

[VatoGato]

I'm no expert on bears but I would second the general consensus that bear spray in most cases is unnecessary for the east coast where there are only black bears. I've seen many black bears and most of the time I only saw their butts as they are running away. I had one instance where I was less than 10 yards away from 2 cubs and I was very nervous in that situation and kind of wished I had some deterrent. Fortunately didn't see mama bear and got out of their quickly after shooting a quick video. <- probably stupid to stop and take a video looking back on the experience. Also had an experience where a large black bear was stalking me and a friend through the bushes and got within 10 feet of us but it quickly ran away when we stood up. IMHO black bears are really just like large raccoons. They can be curious, and if you try to feed them you might get bitten otherwise they tend to leave you alone. If I were to walk through the Appalachians again I would carry a small thing of mace but not for bears but for irresponsible people and their dogs. I don't know anyone who was bit by a bear but have two friends who were bit by dogs on the trail.

[Slow Trek]

In reference to the hiker attacked in his tent last year- while hiking the south half of the trail last year,we spent a night in a shelter with a bear problem. With us was the bear control ranger for the park. We watched him and his partner shoot the problem bear with a tranqualizer gun,take a blood sample for DNA testing,tatoo his lip with an ID number,pull a tooth to check his age,and attach a GPS tracking collar,all in about 15 minutes. When the bear woke up,they chased him down the mountain away from the shelter. This ranger was involved with the case of the hiker who was bit on the leg. The leg to which he had applied coconut scented sunscreen. Of the bears killed after the event.none had the same DNA matching the sample from his wound. Bears have an incredible sense of smell,and are always seeking food. Coconut is food. We saw 21 bears between Springer and Harpers Ferry last year,including the one I just described. He is the only one who did not run when we met. No bear spray for me,but I sure as hell will not sleep near food. Or anything that smells like it.

[TNhiker]

. The leg to which he had applied coconut scented sunscreen.



not sure where you got this info from but according to his blog--
https://peachpeak.wordpress.com/2016/05/24/first-blog-post/comment-page-1/

the sunscreen was in his pack and not on his leg............

[Engine]

Do I need bear spray?
No...........

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Slow Trek]

I got that info from the bear Ranger who was there. Same Ranger that tranqualized the bear at our shelter.

[Bansko]

If I felt the need to, I'd have no qualms about carrying a firearm or bear spray on ANY section of the AT I felt the need to.

That said, in nearly 2200 miles, I never felt the need to.

[bamboo bob]

My grand daughter thinks bear spay is like bug spray. Some kind of Deet for bears is a good idea.

[rickb]

Running away from a bear is a very bad idea. First, bears can run at 35mph for a short time, they can easily catch you. Second, if you're running they may see you as prey.

Perhaps he was hiking with a slower friend.

[Cheyou]

I hiked with Stumbler in Pennsylvania. He carried bear spray . Never bothered me a bit.

Thom

[KDogg]

I never carried bear "piss them off so they will attack you" spray.

[Knee Jerk]

I carry bear spray on every hike but I've never needed it. (It's more for my wife's peace of mind than mine.)

I also carry one of those new "sound grenades" which cost only $10 and emit a high decibel sound.

However, I make so much noise in the woods I have never seen a bear or any wild animal for that matter. Even the squirrels and birds seem to disappear when I'm out there.

On the other hand, there was a hiker killed by a black bear in West Milford, N.J. - which is the next town over - about two years ago. But it was the first such fatality in N.J. in 17 years.

[somers515]

Two things.

1) Just a reminder to everyone, the law in NJ is not clear about whether carrying bear spray is legal or illegal in NJ. Personally my interpretation is that it would be fine but you can always call the local park officer to be sure.

2) Stumbling . . you say that it was the first such fatality in NJ in 17 years. I had heard it was the first one ever in NJ. Can you tell me the one that occurred 17 years ago?


I carry bear spray on every hike but I've never needed it. (It's more for my wife's peace of mind than mine.)

I also carry one of those new "sound grenades" which cost only $10 and emit a high decibel sound.

However, I make so much noise in the woods I have never seen a bear or any wild animal for that matter. Even the squirrels and birds seem to disappear when I'm out there.

On the other hand, there was a hiker killed by a black bear in West Milford, N.J. - which is the next town over - about two years ago. But it was the first such fatality in N.J. in 17 years.

[Vanhalo]

Do I need bear spray?

Don't listen to other people. Carry it if you want to.
I prefer a Vuvuzela.

[Knee Jerk]

Well somers515 it appears you are correct about bear fatalities in New Jersey.

The initial reports I read online said it was the first such fatality in N.J. in 17 years. Now those same reports have been changed to read first "confirmed" fatality in N.J. history.

I always say: Don't believe ANYTHING you read online.

Should have taken my own advice!