View Full Version : Intentions of a Ridgerunner
Gambit McCrae
05-01-2017, 09:54
I would like for some folks to talk about a few things involving the role of a ridgerunner.
What is there role on the trail
What authority do they have
Your experiences with them
Your opinion of the position and how big of a role do they play on the trail
I did the northern smokies this weekend, packed house at all the shelters. There was a ridgerunner that slept in the shelter that night and it was a mutual agreement with pretty much everyone at the shelter that the group was so micro managed and suppressed with "authority" it was awkward and not so great of a time. Thankfully there was a nice grassy spot away from the shelter where I did my cooking and socializing. I was bumrushed by her when I got there asking for my permit and then orchestrating a big chaos of where we should sleep in the shelter....way to dramatic for me and I prolly wont be back in the smokies for a while but I wanted to have more insight on this position because some people state "she has no authority, you don't really have to do what she says", yet everyone did what she said to do all night..:-?
nascarmikeb
05-01-2017, 10:09
VERY INTERESTED!!!! As I will be section hiking starting at Newfound Gap north to hot springs in 2 weeks. I have my permits. But I was wondering the exact same thing. Thanks
Mike
Majortrauma
05-01-2017, 10:15
They only have the authority one gives them. They could certainly radio back to a Ranger or legitimate LE and report someone if they're breaking the rules but short of that, they're just another hiker with a different hat.
And I'm not bad mouthing Ridgerunners.
Uncle Joe
05-01-2017, 10:15
This sort of thing happened at Gooch Gap Shelter last year. A complaint was lodged with the ATC. Guy was, reportedly, off the chain yelling at people and generally being bossy.
Someone would probably report this person too. Just so that they know. If they get no further reports, perhaps it's the one reporting having an axe to grind. If they get a lot, they can address the issue. As for "authority" I would think the most they can do is observe and report.
Gambit McCrae
05-01-2017, 10:28
And I am in no way saying that this girl was a "problem". Just...bossy. Almost like a barney fife in the backcountry. It in no way ruined my trip, but I did feel like I was 100% being babysat. So did everyone else. On top of being the queen bee boss lady there was also a large amount of whining from her (The RR), about the amount of people at the shelter, however, everyone was following the rules. Its spring, in the smokies. What did ya expect? lol She was deemed as "The Nazi Robot". One guy, as she was putting her food in the tool box, asked her "Is that where you boot down at night and recharge?" Speaking of her robotically getting into the toolbox to reboot. lol
Uncle Joe
05-01-2017, 10:34
And I am in no way saying that this girl was a "problem". Just...bossy. Almost like a barney fife in the backcountry. It in no way ruined my trip, but I did feel like I was 100% being babysat. So did everyone else. On top of being the queen bee boss lady there was also a large amount of whining from her (The RR), about the amount of people at the shelter, however, everyone was following the rules. Its spring, in the smokies. What did ya expect? lol She was deemed as "The Nazi Robot". One guy, as she was putting her food in the tool box, asked her "Is that where you boot down at night and recharge?" Speaking of her robotically getting into the toolbox to reboot. lol
lol Funny! This seems like a good time of year to avoid the Smokies. Sadly.
HooKooDooKu
05-01-2017, 10:39
First of all, I'm finally glad to see that SOMEONE is actually in the back country trying to enforce the rules. I've hiked for many years in GSMNP and constantly see disregards for the rule and pretty much zero enforcement. So the fact that the park now hires ride runners to watch over the park is wonderful.
I've spent about 3 nights at shelters with ridge runners and didn't have any problem. From what I've seen, they do as much to try to teach people the rules as they are at trying to enforce the rules.
As for "you don't really have to do what she says"... yea, they might not have any police powers... but they have a radio where the enforcer can be called. From what I've seen, they are only working with park rules, so if you're NOT doing what a ridge runner says, then either they are making up rules or you're technically doing something illegal.
Just Bill
05-01-2017, 11:18
Others can probably comment better however I would add:
The AT is currently facing some serious issues as a victim of it's popularity...no big secret there.
So if the ATC is putting a few more boots on the ground AND you happen to be in a sensitive area... you might see a bit of "overboard" behavior to keep relations good with the locals.
You're also talking peak of the season and still a lot of confusion and even outright hostility by AT users towards the Smokies NP. Unfortunately the AT has been a free for all that failed to police itself... so expect to see the pendulum swing in the other direction for a bit. It's preferable to other alternatives... and there are many places and even trails in the smokies that provide alternative routes through the park for those that wish to avoid RR, hiker traffic or the shelter scene.
So I know you're not ragging on them...but best to cut them some slack and accept that this is part of the deal at the moment.
If somebody is way out of hand then a call to the local trail club or ATC would be the best way to address a RR who has gone off the rails... The ATC doesn't want trail nazi's there either since the goal is good PR and responsible use.
No offense meant, and not directed at anyone... and I know that the OP was asking an honest question.
The AT has reached the point that these sort of things that come with popularity, no fees, generally permit free, ridiculously easy access and long promotion by all users of a general "freedom" that is no longer sustainable. For good or bad the trail is growing and has changed. The good news- all those things are still quite available and waiting on thousands of other trials that can use attention. So if you choose to visit I'd suggest a polite neighbor head down approach and pass this stuff by when you see it. If that's going to bug you, I would seriously consider visiting another trail (or waiting for off-season/midweek at least).
I love the AT... but I also take it at face value as it is today... I don't expect it to be how it used to be.
Smokies and Shennies are the most visited National Parks in the country still I believe... so that's a further grain of salt I keep in mind when I choose to visit them. I think having an idea of what to expect on these specific sections helps keep the experience enjoyable when you run into the inevitable strings attached.
Their main purpose is to educate hikers and make sure people (somewhat) follow the rules...
Everybody is different, she may have just been bossy or just come across as bossy. I cannot hear so I yell, I do not talk but yell and I try not to but it is what folks do that cannot hear. I walked in the snow all day one year and got to the shelter in the smokies and the ridge runner had a fire going outside. I stood around it for a while then I said I need to build a fire inside the shelter, they all have fireplaces, and the ridge runner said he would prefer that I did not. I asked it I would be breaking any rules and he said no it is just common courtesy. It did not make any sense to me so I started collecting firewood and started a fire inside and lots of folks helped and it sure warmed me up and I dried out my shirt which was wet from sweat. We had a fire at every shelter we stopped at in the smokies and most folks helped gather firewood and enjoyed the fire.
For every one over-zealous or rude ridge runner there are others who are helpful, informative, polite/courteous within the context....and nice. If you are within the rules and behaving acceptably and the ridge runner still gives you crap you can feel free to remind them of their status and that you are their guest but they are not your master. Ask them to partner with you to make your time and their time on the trail safe and enjoyable. If they are still rude and overbearing ask for their name so you can file a report with authorities.
perdidochas
05-01-2017, 12:39
I would like for some folks to talk about a few things involving the role of a ridgerunner.
What is there role on the trail
What authority do they have
Your experiences with them
Your opinion of the position and how big of a role do they play on the trail
I did the northern smokies this weekend, packed house at all the shelters. There was a ridgerunner that slept in the shelter that night and it was a mutual agreement with pretty much everyone at the shelter that the group was so micro managed and suppressed with "authority" it was awkward and not so great of a time. Thankfully there was a nice grassy spot away from the shelter where I did my cooking and socializing. I was bumrushed by her when I got there asking for my permit and then orchestrating a big chaos of where we should sleep in the shelter....way to dramatic for me and I prolly wont be back in the smokies for a while but I wanted to have more insight on this position because some people state "she has no authority, you don't really have to do what she says", yet everyone did what she said to do all night..:-?
How were people micro-managed and suppressed by this ridge runner? Is it because they actually had to obey the rules? Was it that they couldn't smoke their pot? Please explain.
orthofingers
05-01-2017, 12:41
I ran into the same thing in New Hampshire several years back although it wasn't on the AT. It was a young woman who was a shelter caretaker. She had so many rules that you couldn't possibly be in compliance with them all. I was there with my wife and 12 year old son so it's not like we were there drinking a 30 pack of Bud and burning the styrofoam cooler in the fire ring.
For instance, there were areas of revegitation near the shelter but they weren't marked or taped off in any way, so in the course of just walking around, everyone was getting reprimanded for walking across the areas they were trying to revegitate. Also, there was a steel bear box there for food storage which everyone gladly used. A bear did come near the shelter and tent sites during the night and in the morning we had to listen to her "lesson" on proper "bear hygiene".
I realize that there are all different experience and knowledge levels of campers and hikers out there and maybe she was just trying to educate the masses but, in her case, it was a matter of, "It's not what you say, it's how you say it."
We were packing up as quickly as possible the following morning when we heard another guy refer to her as the Eco Nazi when we were chatting.
Another time, also in New Hampshire we pitched the tent for myself, 14 year old son and son's friend and were approached by a young woman who let us know that there was a water source just over the ridge we were setup just below. She was totally helpful, directed us to a different spot (actually a better site). I was embarrassed that I didn't know about the water source that we were too close to. She was pleasant, helpful and just a great outdoor ambassador. Again, a case of, "It's not what you say, it's how you say it."
ranger2012
05-01-2017, 12:43
I only ever ran into 2 and it was while hiking. They were extremely friendly and helpful. Telling me about trail conditions and upcoming water. They were both concerned about who I knew of that was on trail in front of me and behind me and how everyone's health was. Nice to know they are out there.
I only ever ran into 2 and it was while hiking. They were extremely friendly and helpful. Telling me about trail conditions and upcoming water. They were both concerned about who I knew of that was on trail in front of me and behind me and how everyone's health was. Nice to know they are out there.
My thoughts exactly. Every ridge runner I have met has been extremely helpful and courteous. Leave no trace and follow any existing rules and you will not have a problem with them in my opinion.
Interesting article in Blue Ridge Outdoors about being a Ridge Runner
http://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/magazine/september-2009/coolest-job-ever-behind-the-scenes-of-the-best-outdoor-occupations/
Gambit McCrae
05-01-2017, 13:12
How were people micro-managed and suppressed by this ridge runner? Is it because they actually had to obey the rules? Was it that they couldn't smoke their pot? Please explain.
After walking thru the smokies for 17 miles, let me take my pack off and take a breath instead of bumrushing me the second I step around the shelter.
If people want to wash their pot out and NOT drink the washing water, let them do it. (Couldn't do that, everyone who ate out of a container was told to use their filtered water to scrub, and think drink it.)
When people would venture away from the shelter too far (for what ever reason, could be pot, could be to make a phone call in private, to go pee) she would catch up to them as quickly as she could and coarse them into doing whatever they needed to do closer to the shelter.
There was nothing educating about the experience. It was "do this do that" the whole time. There were 4 spots left in the shelter. My party was 4 people. She rearranged the shelter telling people where to move their stuff and who would be sleeping where.
I do have to say that one of our guys has bad knees, and requested a bottom bunk so he wouldn't have to climb up top. She did keep that in mind thru the evening until he arrived late.
Like I said, she wasn't the devil, just IMO should have been more like a fly on the wall then a ringleader for the shelter circus lol
In the end I sat over in the grass by bear cables, sipped my Jack and had great conversation thru the evening.
StubbleJumper
05-01-2017, 13:22
I have had the pleasure of bumping into several ridge runners, summit stewards, and back-country caretakers over the years. Every once in a while, you run into an odd duck who behaves awkwardly. However, my experience has been that the hiring committees seemed to have mostly found young people with tact and strong people skills. For every odd duck encounter, I've probably had 10 positive encounters.
They play an important role in educating people in the backcountry. I like having them present, because it eliminates any dilemma for me about whether I should say something when other hikers are either ignorant or acting selfishly. The ridge runner or care taker gets paid to intervene, and they usually do so pretty smoothly, and that means that I don't have to go to the effort of finding a polite way to tell another hiker that he/she is acting like an idiot.
Puddlefish
05-01-2017, 13:27
Met my first ridge runner prior to Gooch, he was nice, he was fishing out trash from a campfire.
I ran into the Gooch goofball guy last year. He was fairly useless, loud and just having fun amusing himself. He loaded up the fire on a windy dry night, and had to be interrupted from his loud comedy routine to meet with a sheriff inquiring about a missing hiker. Positively, he did yell at people not to hang bear pinatas.
First shelter in the Smokies, where I stopped for lunch, there was a nice old guy ridgerunning, who chatted, reminded everyone not to bring scented food or items into the shelter.
The first night in the Smokies, there was no ridge runner. A bear came into the shelter and tore open two packs before someone awoke and drove the bear away.
My second night in the Smokies, there was snow, with another 3" forecast. No ridge runner. Everyone crammed into the shelter. There was one old dude holding court, telling everyone how to backpack properly. He later insisted on spreading out his stuff across six feet of space "because he had a reservation." He then did other stupid things that resulted in a lost night of sleep for the dozen people in the shelter.
My final day in the Smokies, I again stopped for lunch in a shelter. There was another night of snow forecast. About a dozen people had zeroed for the day in the shelter. There were hikers piling in by the minute. A small group was getting high and trying to burn various things in the fireplace resulting a smoky mess. I had already decided I wanted no part of that zoo and was packing up to move down the trail, lose altitude and get out of the snow at the next shelter.
In came a ridge runner and she took charge immediately. She was kind of awesome, she got everyone's attention, determined exactly how long they'd been there and told everyone exactly what was expected of them. Who had priority, who needed to move the hell along or set up a tent in the snow. She took no crap from anyone and got the job done. She sorted out a chaotic situation.
I hiked a personal best 21 miles that day. The final northbound shelter at low altitude was empty, but had a big bear cage across the front. I pushed on to Standing Bear Farm, where I took a nice zero.
Uncle Joe
05-01-2017, 13:37
No doubt they play an important role. Again, I say report the behavior. If it's a one-off report it will likely go down as someone picking a nit. If they get several about the same ridge runner, it's an opportunity to educate them on how to politely get their point across. We can all agree their presence is appreciated, though.
Gambit McCrae
05-01-2017, 13:53
They play an important role in educating people in the backcountry. I like having them present, because it eliminates any dilemma for me about whether I should say something when other hikers are either ignorant or acting selfishly. The ridge runner or care taker gets paid to intervene, and they usually do so pretty smoothly, and that means that I don't have to go to the effort of finding a polite way to tell another hiker that he/she is acting like an idiot.
No doubt they play an important role. We can all agree their presence is appreciated, though.
Agree and Agree
By her being there she DID take it upon herself to make sure I had space in the shelter without having to confront anyone. Maybe she was a little odd...and a little crazy on the LNT "drink your kitchen water", but - I personally drink mine if I use cook pot but I can def see how others would be out of their comfort zone to drink it. Then again, maybe she acts that way as a means of entertainment lol
I would like for some folks to talk about a few things involving the role of a ridgerunner.
What is there role on the trail
What authority do they have
Your experiences with them
Your opinion of the position and how big of a role do they play on the trail
I did the northern smokies this weekend, packed house at all the shelters. There was a ridgerunner that slept in the shelter that night and it was a mutual agreement with pretty much everyone at the shelter that the group was so micro managed and suppressed with "authority" it was awkward and not so great of a time. Thankfully there was a nice grassy spot away from the shelter where I did my cooking and socializing. I was bumrushed by her when I got there asking for my permit and then orchestrating a big chaos of where we should sleep in the shelter....way to dramatic for me and I prolly wont be back in the smokies for a while but I wanted to have more insight on this position because some people state "she has no authority, you don't really have to do what she says", yet everyone did what she said to do all night..:-?
A RR doesn't have any real authority out there, but they can communicate with and request assistance from rangers and park staff. Roaming Gnome talked to a female RR in his latest video. Is she the one at 17:06 you saw?
https://youtu.be/QAGTyDextn4?t=1025
Was it that they couldn't smoke their pot?
some ridgerunners have been known to smoke pot...
just sayin.....
Gambit McCrae
05-01-2017, 14:03
A RR doesn't have any real authority out there, but they can communicate and request assistance from Rangers and Park staff. Roaming Gnome talked to a female RR in his latest video. Is she the one at 17:06 you saw?
She be the one! She sounded quite pleasant in the video... Not quite the same experience on sight - But like I say, she wasn't a monster lol
HooKooDooKu
05-01-2017, 14:06
...everyone who ate out of a container was told to use their filtered water to scrub, and think drink it...
I was going to start with
If a GSMNP Ridge Runner was saying that to me, I'd be politely telling them to **** (ok... so actually I would start a polite discussion about the rules, but the point of the discussion would still be the same). But then it dawned on me that likely what might have been happening was someone NOT eating all of there food and simply dumping the extra food along with their wash water. Can't tell you how many times I've seen left over raman noodles IN THE WATER SOURCE.
What is there role on the trail, in case all the warnings on the internet, in books and on signs posted at the road crossings to warn hikers to "not do this and don't do that" have been missed, the trail clubs dig into their deep pockets and hire a "fake cop" to be the "hall monitor" to recite the 11 general orders of a sentry over and over to everyone they meet along the path. Hang your food, pack it out, don't feed the squares, etc.
What authority do they have? None
Your experience with them. Not good. If you dare to question what they are preaching or question their authority or worse yet question the "trail club" motivation they will sometime react poorly. How can you question the word of god!
Your opinion of the position and how big of a role do they play on the trail, They are there to harass people and make it so hard to hike the trail that you will give up and go home. The role they play is to help the trail club not the hikers. Ignore them. These folks are what you get if you send too much money to a trail club.
BuckeyeBill
05-01-2017, 14:54
I agree with Uncle Joe, report it and let it go. I am not making accusations but it sounds more like a case of "rookieidous". I have seen it in law enforcement many times. While I agree that educating newer hikers, she didn't need to act as you reported. Not calling you on anything, but she may have just dealt with the biggest ***hole and hadn't taken the time to calm down before meeting you. I learned that there is two sides to each story, therefore I won't pass judgement until I hear from her.
BuckeyeBill
05-01-2017, 15:07
If some told me to drink my dish water LNT says strain it, scatter it. To wash yourself or your dishes, carry water 200 feet away from streams or lakes and use small amounts of biodegradable soap. Scatter strained dishwater. I carry a small section of metal screen just for this purpose. I pack out anything on the screen.
MuddyWaters
05-01-2017, 15:55
Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone tasked with taking care of the shelter, while dealing with hordes of careless, self centered , new idiots daily. Determined to do everything wrong that will attract bears to the shelter.
Basically, its probably like running a kindergarten class. I wouldnt have the patience.
Starchild
05-01-2017, 16:47
I was a ridgerunner for a short time and as stated above Ridgerunners are there for educational (LNT) purposes, to be a representative, voice and presence of ATC on the trail, and to be the ATC's eyes & ears on the trail, also to help maintain the trails, shelters and stuff (read stuff as privi's - not glamorous, but needed). They have no authority, but they do know the rules and can radio for a ranger if needed.
They do have a 'official' look to them, and that is helpful in compliance to requests and respect for what they say, but again no power to enforce anything. From my training there was not a requirement to drink your wash water, though many AT Thru hikers do, perhaps it was a suggestion as it does work well, it does not seem to be a thing that anyone should demand. As for sleeping spots, I would just make sure there was enough spots for everyone without going to the trouble of assigning (that was never a requested part of my job function), although if a group, especially with children that I knew was coming (yes they can and do know these things sometimes) I would try to set aside continuous space for them.
Slo-go'en
05-01-2017, 16:54
Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone tasked with taking care of the shelter, while dealing with hordes of careless, self centered , new idiots daily. Determined to do everything wrong that will attract bears to the shelter.Basically, its probably like running a kindergarten class. I wouldnt have the patience.
As a former caretaker for the GMC and RMC, it can be a frustrating job to keep some people in line. Thankfully, most everyone is a pleasure to meet and deal with, but there are those few with which you wish you could just shoot and be done with it.
Just Bill
05-01-2017, 16:57
If some told me to drink my dish water LNT says strain it, scatter it. To wash yourself or your dishes, carry water 200 feet away from streams or lakes and use small amounts of biodegradable soap. Scatter strained dishwater. I carry a small section of metal screen just for this purpose. I pack out anything on the screen.
Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone tasked with taking care of the shelter, while dealing with hordes of careless, self centered , new idiots daily. Determined to do everything wrong that will attract bears to the shelter.
Basically, its probably like running a kindergarten class. I wouldnt have the patience.
Worth keeping in mind the very political bear issues and the uproar over a euthanized bear(s).
Also worth keeping in mind the AT is basically the ridge route/trail for all the wildlife for most of it's length.
Many of us have a story of turning the corner and running into a bear on that section.
So what's silly in one spot (drinking your dishwater in a lowland dispersed camping site) may be very critical in another spot (higher alpine setting with concentrated human activity and a fairly acclimated bear population).
Nobody would run up to you and demand you bag your poop and carry it out, but that is a fact of life in other areas... could even earn you much more than a scolding from the junior ranger club.
AfterParty
05-01-2017, 18:16
I can see not tossing out food chunks makes since but I am not drinking the water outta my washed pot. I carry a half sponge to wipe my pot, that thing has to hold more funk than the amazon. Ain't no way I'm drinking the water that thing touched. Not to mention the flavors. I'd have asked her to go and pound my shot respectfully and if she didn't I would walk well away from the shelter and water source and do my thing. If she followed me I'd probably be night hiking.
MuddyWaters
05-01-2017, 18:26
Concentrated use, is not LNT.
Shelters are concentrated use.
At philmont scout ranch, where campsites are also similar concentrated use, scouts are taught to drink primary rinsewater. Washwater is disposed of down a pipe into underground where bear cant get it. The washwater is strained thru metal window screen , all bits of food are collected and packed out with trash.
Its not like hiker caused bear problems are a rare thing in gsmnp ...they are very common. Shelters are closed every year.
As a former caretaker for the GMC and RMC, it can be a frustrating job to keep some people in line. Thankfully, most everyone is a pleasure to meet and deal with, but there are those few with which you wish you could just shoot and be done with it.
I was a GMC caretaker, too. They really got upset when I started shooting the hikers. Still not sure why, what with overcrowding and all.....
I was a GMC caretaker, too. They really got upset when I started shooting the hikers. Still not sure why, what with overcrowding and all.....
That explains a lot.
4eyedbuzzard
05-01-2017, 19:58
As a former caretaker for the GMC and RMC, it can be a frustrating job to keep some people in line. Thankfully, most everyone is a pleasure to meet and deal with, but there are those few with which you wish you could just shoot and be done with it.
I was a GMC caretaker, too. They really got upset when I started shooting the hikers. Still not sure why, what with overcrowding and all.....
That explains a lot.
It's okay, Ethesis. As he was a GMC caretaker concerned with the ecosystem, I'll wager Deadeye used lead-free hollow points and disposed of the bodies more than 200 feet from a water source. All is okay.
evyck da fleet
05-01-2017, 20:30
I went thru GSMNP the first week in May five years ago on my thru. I met one ranger who was cool but I could tell he couldn't wait until the thru hiker bubble passed due to the overcrowding at the shelter. For all we know one of the hikers who got there before you that day or the previous night could have done something clueless and that put her in boss mode. Or maybe she was too nice and had to go into boss mode for hikers to listen.
I'll usually cut them more slack in the Whites, GSMNP and around Springer due to the increased number of hikers and therefore increased likelihood someone is being stupid or acting entitled.
ScareBear
05-02-2017, 03:56
GSMNP is a cluster with its reservations/rules/camp bosses. That said, it's their game. Don't like their rules? Don't play their game.
That said, I don't think there is any law about recycling your dishwater in GSMNP that can be enforced! Shelter reservations, for sure though. The shelter situations there can get totally FUBAR with bad weather or slow hikers and the runners have an onerous task to perform in getting it all sorted.
I just saw something for the first time last weekend. It was a gal in a NPS dark green runner's shirt that had a "NATIONAL FOREST RUNNER" embroidered rectangular patch on the right breast and some official looking NFS and NPS patches on the sleeves of it. What the hell was up with THAT? She left the parking lot before I could ask her WTH...the only NFS near was the Pisgah....was she a poseur?
I dont understand the reservations with drinking your washwater from your cookpot. I cook oatmeal in the morning. Eat as much as I can, then pour a bit of water in and scrape, swirl swish around with my spoon. Drink it to get all those calories you just carried. Repeat. Cookpot is clean enough. 10 hours later, I'm eating supper, boiling more water in my cookpot which sterilizes it, cook more food. Thats water I've filtered, carried from the water source, heated with fuel that I've carried. Im sure as hell not going to dump all that energy expended on the ground.
BuckeyeBill
05-02-2017, 06:58
I dont understand the reservations with drinking your washwater from your cookpot. I cook oatmeal in the morning. Eat as much as I can, then pour a bit of water in and scrape, swirl swish around with my spoon. Drink it to get all those calories you just carried. Repeat. Cookpot is clean enough. 10 hours later, I'm eating supper, boiling more water in my cookpot which sterilizes it, cook more food. Thats water I've filtered, carried from the water source, heated with fuel that I've carried. Im sure as hell not going to dump all that energy expended on the ground.
There is a difference between wash water and what you were doing. Wash water contains soap for most people. You just rinsed your pot out. A full wash and rinse for me amounts to about 5-6 fl. oz. for me. While what you are saying about boiling water makes a lot of sense, most people prefer to use the soap and rinse solution.
Don't use soap to clean your pot while you are hiking. Use soap to wash your hands. Soap adds to the pollutants in an already heavily trafficked area.
She be the one! She sounded quite pleasant in the video... Not quite the same experience on sight - But like I say, she wasn't a monster lol
That's Chloe. I had nothing but a positive experience with her a few weeks ago when myself and HooKooDooKu (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php/11871-HooKooDooKu) carried 20lbs of food up to Derrick Knob Shelter to surprise folks with hamburgers and hot dogs on a snowy day. She was friendly, knowledgeable, and yes she did take charge when needed, but was very helpful and professional, even taking care of someone's bloody feet. I'm glad to have met her.
BuckeyeBill
05-02-2017, 11:29
Don't use soap to clean your pot while you are hiking. Use soap to wash your hands. Soap adds to the pollutants in an already heavily trafficked area.
I use Dr. Bonner's and it only takes one or two drops. I do reuse my wash water for everything including including my hands. I already have enough problems with my digestive tract, I will wash my pots and follow LNT principles for disposing of wash and rinse water. HYOH
That's Chloe. I had nothing but a positive experience with her a few weeks ago when myself and HooKooDooKu (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php/11871-HooKooDooKu) carried 20lbs of food up to Derrick Knob Shelter to surprise folks with hamburgers and hot dogs on a snowy day. She was friendly, knowledgeable, and yes she did take charge when needed, but was very helpful and professional, even taking care of someone's bloody feet. I'm glad to have met her.
It's not her first season as a RR, so she's seen and heard everything at this point. I've never had an issue with a ranger or a RR and usually take advantage of the chance to share lore and stories of the trail with them.
Alligator
05-03-2017, 16:06
The no soap rinse water becomes a blend of nastiness after a while and imparts off flavors to subsequent meals. Curry chocolate cider oatmeal really isn't appealing to me even after 100 miles of hiking. My meal variety changes, and may include fats and oils. Those sorts of things can get rancid.
Occasionally, something might get crispy or burned. Flame control can be finicky with different stoves.
Most times, there's nothing left but a film before washing, but once in a while a grain of rice or a half-cooked noodle stick to the pot. Having a little chunk of squishy/hard noodle interupt a slurry of curry chocolate cider EVOO oatmeal really does create a bit of a gag reflex.
I use a microdropper bottle for camp soap and literally use just 2-3 drops of soap. If I am somewhere particularly stringent on wash water, I have a screen to catch the odd bit of rice or noodle and I put that in my trash bag.
Starchild
05-03-2017, 17:26
The no soap rinse water becomes a blend of nastiness after a while and imparts off flavors to subsequent meals. Curry chocolate cider oatmeal really isn't appealing to me even after 100 miles of hiking. My meal variety changes, and may include fats and oils. Those sorts of things can get rancid.
...
Plan your meals so the flavors come together from your last meal, or it cleans the pot for the next one if they would clash. All part of LNT principles, in this case #1. And yes I do plan this way. If I need a clean pot for next meal, I will plan my current one to have it clean. If what I have will leave some behind I will have to blend with the next.
Or use freezer bag meals and just use your pot to heat water to mix in the bag and eat from the bag, then pack it out in your trash. This is not LNT, since the used bag winds up in the landfill. But at least your pot is clean and you donīt waste water or time washing anything.
devoidapop
05-03-2017, 18:42
Or use freezer bag meals and just use your pot to heat water to mix in the bag and eat from the bag, then pack it out in your trash. This is not LNT, since the used bag winds up in the landfill. But at least your pot is clean and you donīt waste water or time washing anything.
I like this idea. You have any freezer bag recipes you can share on the food forum?
Starchild
05-03-2017, 19:20
Or use freezer bag meals and just use your pot to heat water to mix in the bag and eat from the bag, then pack it out in your trash. This is not LNT, since the used bag winds up in the landfill. But at least your pot is clean and you donīt waste water or time washing anything.
This is not against LNT guidelines. As long as you pack it out, I don't see the conflict.
This is not against LNT guidelines. As long as you pack it out, I don't see the conflict.
anything that winds up in the landfill is leaving a trace.....cooking in a pot then washing the pot (without soap) and drinking the wash water is LNT, plastic bags are not LNT....at least thatīs my take on it, I could be wrong.
Starchild
05-03-2017, 20:02
anything that winds up in the landfill is leaving a trace.....cooking in a pot then washing the pot (without soap) and drinking the wash water is LNT, plastic bags are not LNT....at least thatīs my take on it, I could be wrong.
LNT is outdoor and in this case backcountry ethics, not planetary conservation ethics. As long as you pack it out you are good as far as LNT is concerned. Not saying that the bag is not another item to discuss, but just not in the context of LNT. Carry it out and you are good to go.
I wasn't aware my GF got a ridge runner job. Welcome to my world Gambit.
Nothing but good things to say about ridge runners. +6 to HKDK, JB, TNH, Ranger, Storm, first comments.
swisscross
05-03-2017, 21:19
anything that winds up in the landfill is leaving a trace.....cooking in a pot then washing the pot (without soap) and drinking the wash water is LNT, plastic bags are not LNT....at least thatīs my take on it, I could be wrong.
How much fuel (gas) did you use getting to a trail?
FreeGoldRush
05-03-2017, 21:40
When people would venture away from the shelter too far (for what ever reason, could be pot, could be to make a phone call in private, to go pee) she would catch up to them as quickly as she could and coarse them into doing whatever they needed to do closer to the shelter.
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Can someone describe the rule violation here? This one is a little creepy.
How much fuel (gas) did you use getting to a trail?
Really good question....and how many different kinds of earthīs resources went into the car I drove to burn the gas to get to the trail, not to mention other raw materials that were used to manufacturer the clothes I wore, and the pack I carried and all the things inside the pack, and the fuel I burned to heat the water to rehydrate my meal? Wow, backpack camping is totally harmful to the universe.
Alligator
05-04-2017, 00:10
Plan your meals so the flavors come together from your last meal, or it cleans the pot for the next one if they would clash. All part of LNT principles, in this case #1. And yes I do plan this way. If I need a clean pot for next meal, I will plan my current one to have it clean. If what I have will leave some behind I will have to blend with the next.That's overkill and not what is said in LNT.
Dispose of waste properly.
To wash yourself or your dishes, carry water 200 feet away from streams or lakes and use small amounts of biodegradable soap. Scatter strained dishwater.
Unless there's a different protocol for the specific area, there's no LNT principle saying drink your dish water. I am not going to plan my meals so the dishwater tastes good. Plus it's not sanitary. Forgo hot water and dish soap at home for a few months or years with your eating utensils and see how that turns out. Include sugary drinks frequently. Eat outside all the time while doing it and make sure to lay your spoon down on the ground or on the town park picnic table every now and then. Oh and don't wash your hands for days and days since you are abstaining from soap.
Not to say I wouldn't eat a couple of Skittles off the ground if I knew I was the one who dropped them. But if I don't, I keep a small Ziploc in my pocket at all times for little garbage like that, candy wrappers, little pieces of food packaging, bits of spillage while cooking, etc.
Freezer bag cooking will keep your pot clean but I dehydrate my own meals and the proportions don't always work out. Sometimes I need to reduce the water content or thicken the broth or part of the meal needs to be cooked.
gpburdelljr
05-04-2017, 00:31
Here is a link to the LNT seven principles.
https://lnt.org/learn/7-principles
HooKooDooKu
05-04-2017, 07:23
Can someone describe the rule violation here? This one is a little creepy.
In GSMNP, you are only allowed to camp at designed campsites. During the thru hiker season, when there's more thru hikers than can fit IN the shelters, the thru hikers are permitted to tent near the shelter.
So I can only imagine that the RR was making sure people were NOT setting up tents too far away from the shelter...
Especially since contrary to this story, when we ran into Chloe, one of her recommendations was that if you needed to "relieve" yourself, she specifically suggested walking down the trail a ways and then turn into the woods as the designated "relief" area was "turning into a mine field" (because the shelter had no priviot and the designated area near the shelter was getting overloaded).
Starchild
05-04-2017, 07:45
That's overkill and not what is said in LNT.
Dispose of waste properly.
To wash yourself or your dishes, carry water 200 feet away from streams or lakes and use small amounts of biodegradable soap. Scatter strained dishwater.
It is covered under 'plan ahead and prepare' which is the basis of LNT implementation, which is to think out how to minimize your impact, with less being better. LNT is not a set of rules, though many take them as such, but having the right heart for the wild, her creatures and our 'fellow man' and to the ability of the person to do it.
The guidelines are not absolutes, but are steps of a graduated system towards minimizing impact.
So it is covered under LNT, but again none of LNT is a requirement, just a guideline.
Gambit McCrae
05-04-2017, 09:52
[/LIST]
LNT is not a set of rules, though many take them as such, but having the right heart for the wild, her creatures and our 'fellow man' and to the ability of the person to do it.
.
I could almost see Ted Nugent as I read this. I hope I have the right heart to walk the trail...
BuckeyeBill
05-04-2017, 10:18
First of all I would like to say that, I can remember the early days of LNT when all that needed to be said was "Take only pictures, leave only footprints." Those days days are long gone.
I agree with Alligator on this (sorry Alligator if that thought scares you:)), in that unless you want to risk food poisoning, use soap for cleanup. Others suggest freezer bag cooking. That's fine if you want to generate a plastic bag of trash for each meal eaten. Those of us that cook in our pots, have our different ingredients in reusable plastic bags. While they may wear out eventually, we will generate less trash than a person who generates one maybe two bags of plastic trash per day. On short trips I have even saved some baggies for future trips depending on what was stored in them and how soon I plan to be heading back out.
LNT principles can be looked at in two ways, literally and in the spirit in which they were written. Ridge Runners have gone through training on the LNT Principles (Yes there are official classes for this) and some have even gone further and become trainers of LNT Principles. In the numerous section and thru hikes I have done, meeting with them has always been an enjoyable time. The only time I heard one of them say anything, were to people throwing trash into the fire. Yea sometimes it seems that they may be overstepping their authority, but their backup is only a radio call away. In the beginning I was a little confused/irritated with the new permit camping situation in the GSMNP. But I talked to a RR and they explained things in a way that made me understand the why not the what of the new regulations. It seems like Baxter State Park feels the same way.
I like this idea. You have any freezer bag recipes you can share on the food forum?
I pretty much just cook extra each meal and dehydrate whatīs left over. I read a book called Freezer Bag Cooking about 10 years ago and have been doing it ever since. There is another book called The Hungry Spork.
It just makes so much more sense. Saves money because its way cheaper than freeze dried meals that cost like $8 apiece, more delicious and tasty meals without a lot of sodium and preservatives, more food for less weight in the pack, makes meals very convenient and easy clean up, much quicker than trying to cook in camp, pleasant hobby to do at home.
I abide to the spirit of LNT, not the letter. For all of you drinking dirty dish water, are you also packing out your poopoo and peepee? Those latter two are far more harmful than some watery food residue. Just respect nature and enjoy your hike. It's what 99.9% of backpackers I've seen do.
Others suggest freezer bag cooking. That's fine if you want to generate a plastic bag of trash for each meal eaten. Those of us that cook in our pots, have our different ingredients in reusable plastic bags. While they may wear out eventually, we will generate less trash than a person who generates one maybe two bags of plastic trash per day. On short trips I have even saved some baggies for future trips depending on what was stored in them and how soon I plan to be heading back out.
Yes, yes, and yes....I only eat out of the freezer bag when there is a shortage of filtered water to effectively clean a pot. When water is abundant for cleanup I dump my dehydrated meal from the ziplock into the pot for rehydrating and then eat out of the pot. I use a Jetboil spoon which, unlike a ĻsporkĻ, has a flat tip so I can remove every tiny tidbit of food from my pot so there is no need to filter the wash water. And yes, when I wash my pot I use enough soap to get a good cleanup, and yes, dump the wastewater away from water source and away from camp, fling it so it isnīt lying in one spot. And, Yes, I pack out and reuse ziplock bags. The double zip freezer bags are sturdier and last more uses than the single zip sandwich bags.
I sometimes pour my dehydrated meal into a wide mouth Nalgene and put in half the water and let it set overnight for better rehydration, especially with rolled oats and dehydrated fruits, then just add the other half of hot water in the morning and let it steep then enjoy. I have found that cooking oatmeal in a Jetboil pot is very dicey.
evyck da fleet
05-04-2017, 12:34
I abide to the spirit of LNT, not the letter. For all of you drinking dirty dish water, are you also packing out your poopoo and peepee? Those latter two are far more harmful than some watery food residue. Just respect nature and enjoy your hike. It's what 99.9% of backpackers I've seen do.
Hmm.. a LMT catheter. If they started handing out those and requiring them from Springer on that would cut down on the number of thrus
The role of the ridge runner is public relations and public education. The only enforcement authority they have is the radio they carry...is the infraction serious enough that a ranger is going to trudge into the mountains to haul you out? Is it serious enough that they would spend the time waiting at the trail head for you to come out? In the vast majority of cases I doubt a ranger is going to fool with the issues that the ridge runner deals with on a daily basis: educating people about LNT, camping rules, etc.
The best way to operate in that job is to be very friendly and educate people on the issues in a way that is very forgiving of transgressions. If you are nice about it most people will feel obligated to follow your advice or they will risk looking and feeling like a jerk to others around them. If the ridge runner plays the bossy jerk most people will probably be more sympathetic to those not following the rules.
BuckeyeBill
05-04-2017, 13:57
Totally agree with you Bronk. But there is and always will be the occasional Bevis or Butthead hiking somewhere.
Alligator
05-04-2017, 16:45
[/LIST]
It is covered under 'plan ahead and prepare' which is the basis of LNT implementation, which is to think out how to minimize your impact, with less being better. LNT is not a set of rules, though many take them as such, but having the right heart for the wild, her creatures and our 'fellow man' and to the ability of the person to do it.
The guidelines are not absolutes, but are steps of a graduated system towards minimizing impact.
So it is covered under LNT, but again none of LNT is a requirement, just a guideline.It is explicitly covered under the principle of dispose of waste properly. Not the more tenuous argument you are making under plan ahead and prepare. You have also gone from "less" to "none" and that is not what is being said. If the organization is stating how to dispose of it properly, the organization is implicitly saying some biodegradable soap is ok. I do plan ahead and prepare that's why I only bring the pictured container of soap. That's how much soap I generally use in a week. It holds two teaspoons. It's as minimized as possible. 39218
Have rarely used soap, biodegradable or otherwise, on trail to clean out a cookpot during personal solo cookware use for more than 10 yrs. Cleaning a pot doesn't have to involve H2O or soap...at all... or at every meal. In town at the next resupply location is when I completely scrub and wash and 'disinfect' cookware with H2O2 or bleach or dish soap or other soap. Easy enough to twirl a stick, spork, or a long clean finger inside cookware, rinse as needed, POSSIBLY DRINKING THE WATER(left over sauce or food in the water has a tiny bit of nourishment, it's flavored 'vitamin' water :D), which is sometimes dry camping required, and which it sounded like Starchild suggested if applicable, and then clean with plant matter, clean sand, etc. It comes from having to often conserve water on desert hikes or other water rare hikes. I'm still here...I think. ;)
It's not even necessarily the amount of little soap used in Gators example or that it is even biodegradable. The crux of the matter is in disposing of waste properly which it seems both Starchild and Gator are aware but is getting glanced over some.
It's regularly witnessed their are some fallacies concerning biodegradable and so called "nontoxic" soap as if it's "safe' to do as one wants like throwing a cook pot's wash water with 2-3 drops of it in a stream or bathing with it while in a water source. Even with the best intentions you'd be doing more harm than good even if using biodegradable soap in this way. For biodegrable soap to break down it needs to activate with soil. In water it definitely causes problems. For bidegrable soaps like Camp Suds to be safe for fish it has to be diluted to a 20,000:1 ratio. Problematic as one in a lake next to the dock shampoos their hair and body with 1/4-1/2 a bottle.
This has been mentioned by Philip Werner http://sectionhiker.com/biodegradable-soap-in-the-backcountry-the-campsuds-myth/
This LNT adherent: http://www.backcountryattitude.com/biodegradable_soap.html
Catlinn Kauffman a professional Grand Teton and Yellowstone rafting guide https://www.oars.com/blog/5-best-eco-friendly-soaps/
With other soap the ingredients are even more problematic.
jj dont play
05-05-2017, 02:12
She be the one! She sounded quite pleasant in the video... Not quite the same experience on sight - But like I say, she wasn't a monster lol
She was a ridge runner last year too.
Heard a story of her showing up to a full shelter in which everyone was making it work yet she kicked people out and made room for herself. Snowed pretty good that night. And was a rough one for those who had to tent.
However I ran into her the next day and it was a snowy cold day, actually was today, Cinco De Mayo, last year and she was very helpful. Greeted me, asked that I had a permit but didn't make me take it out. Briefed me on upcoming shelters, water, Bears, and noro. Effectively doing her job and apologizing for holding me up though it was a minute or two. Basically what you got in the provided video. I thought she did was really good. Also know a few thrus that she gave rides to town. They have a tough job in the Smokies, some deal with stressful situations in different ways.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The AT through GSMNP is one of my last favorite trails in the park to hike because it's beaten down at the lean-to's and it's so darn used by the masses. I save it for off high peak times. No wonder Chloe had some input about LNT to share.
That's no reflection on anyone posting.
Starchild
05-05-2017, 08:08
It is explicitly covered under the principle of dispose of waste properly. Not the more tenuous argument you are making under plan ahead and prepare. You have also gone from "less" to "none" and that is not what is being said. If the organization is stating how to dispose of it properly, the organization is implicitly saying some biodegradable soap is ok. I do plan ahead and prepare that's why I only bring the pictured container of soap. That's how much soap I generally use in a week. It holds two teaspoons. It's as minimized as possible. 39218
Sorry I assumed you would be carrying out your used freezer bags, yes if you intend to not dispose of them properly and leave them in the woods, it would not be LNT, and also cause problem to wildlife, another thing about them which is also not LNT.
You really should dispose of them properly, which would get that practice to be LNT.
Maybe don't go into the woods if you are going to leave discarded used plastic bags and sign up for a LNT awareness class.
Thanks
Starchild
05-05-2017, 08:11
Can someone describe the rule violation here? This one is a little creepy.
This could be in a area with a problem bear. I've encountered them while Ridgerunning and yes you want to keep the people close to the shelter.
Starchild
05-05-2017, 08:23
I could almost see Ted Nugent as I read this. I hope I have the right heart to walk the trail...
We could go into one of those great debates that spans religions and the possibility that no law or enforcement is needed if people act out of the goodness of their heart. Basically the theory goes laws are not for the good hearted, but for those who act selfishly or knowingly bad or simply have not learned (which is due to selfishness and knowingly bad by others, forsaking mentoring and assisting). The good hearted can live without laws and rules. The laws we have are not meant for those who are doing the right thing, and actually get in the way of doing the right thing.
So LNT offers both, if you are basically 'good' hearted towards Nature, it's creatures and yoru fellow man, you will be LNT be design and learn how you can do better. You don't need the guidelines at all, except as a teaching method. But for those not ready the guidelines act as rules and laws, something these people understand, though they are not rules and laws. So LNT straddles both sides by stating it as guidelines, which some take as hard and fast rules. In religions you can see this sometimes with the adherents to the laws to the Jewish People and the exemption from those rules for followers of Christ. And LNT has it's religious following too, with it's own set of priests.
My experience with Ridge Runners has been nothing but positive. I appreciate their role and the ones I came across were diplomatic and informative.
BuckeyeBill
05-05-2017, 09:48
While the role of the RR is basically educational, I am sure that if it appears that a certain group blatantly is not following LNT principles, rangers or park police would probably setup near their next campsite and watch. Throwing trash on the ground/into a fire can be and would be considered littering. I know in my state at our State Parks and in our National Forest the Rangers take littering very seriously. I am saying this not from hearing about it, but actually seeing people cited. When people tried to say it wasn't them, the Ranger pulled a video camera out of his pack and showed them his evidence. One guy even said it was the first time he had done it, and he was shown a second video at a different campsite. He was also handed a invitation to see the local judge. So yes LNT principles can be turned into laws and not for just littering.
Alligator
05-06-2017, 00:04
Sorry I assumed you would be carrying out your used freezer bags, yes if you intend to not dispose of them properly and leave them in the woods, it would not be LNT, and also cause problem to wildlife, another thing about them which is also not LNT.
You really should dispose of them properly, which would get that practice to be LNT.
Maybe don't go into the woods if you are going to leave discarded used plastic bags and sign up for a LNT awareness class.
ThanksDid you mean to quote me? I have been talking about 1. Not drinking wash water. 2. Washing my pot and spoon with a couple drops of soap. 3. The part of LNT which discusses how to handle dish water. I said I don't freezer bag cook which means I use my pot to cook in. It gets washed with a couple drops of soap. Most times my meals are vacuumed seal. Those bags, and every other last bit of trash I generate gets packed out of the woods, every single time.
Honestly, where did you pull that crazy-ass idea from? We've been talking about getting pots clean.
Yeah, if a ridge runner was lecturing me on drinking my dish wash water I would feel they have gone too far. But my dog cleans my pots. Another reason to not hike the GSMNP.
On a more serious note, no one is more pleased than me to see the number of ridge runners substantially increased down here in GA during the silly season. with little exception I have only found them to be pleasant and the trail conditions are night and day vs a few years ago. Trash, TP blooms, dumped food, and discarded gear appear to be a thing of the past. It may just be that the RR's are cleaning the stuff up or it just might be that they are actually getting some of LNT into most of these wanna be through hiker's heads.
And, as discussed elsewhere, another option is to skip the GSMNP altogether. Just do a 76 mile substitute on another trail nearby. No, its not the same as an EFI (every freaking inch) thru hike, but still, there are some beautiful and uncrowded alternatives nearby. Just saying.
Berserker
06-05-2017, 12:56
Just got back from doing GSMNP from Fontana to Standing Bear hostel with part of the trip being over Memorial day weekend, and didn't see hide nor hair of the ridge runner the entire time...weird. Shelters were packed, but everyone was pretty cool and well behaved. All those with reservations stayed in the shelters, and any thrus that brought the total over 12 people at any one shelter tented.
Being a ridgerunner in the park has to be an incredibly frustrating job. Promoting LNT on the AT in GSMNP is about like preaching abstinence to pregnant teenagers. Day late and a dollar short.
Taco Bell Mild
06-13-2017, 00:29
I remember this! In fact, I was the person at the shelter that day that made the joke about the ridge runner (Chloe) sleeping in the toolbox. But I didn't mean it maliciously. I just thought it was funny to picture all the ridge runners as robots who sing the national anthem and then say "thank you for visiting the Smokies" before shutting down for the night. I don't recall anyone calling Chloe a Nazi robot though.
My recollection of events was somewhat different, perhaps because I got to the shelter before your group of four section hikers. I remember talking to you guys by the bear cables though and you guys seemed nice.
When I got to the shelter, Chloe did come right up and introduce herself. I asked if she wanted to see my permit and she said I could get set up in the shelter first. At that point the shelter was filling up quick and she was trying to reserve four spots for your party of section hikers, per park rules. I did see multiple hikers breaking park rules including not having permits, eating in the shelter, dumping out unstrained dish water (I did that myself). She attempted to help one hiker without a permit obtain one rather than calling in a ticket over the radio but the hiker became belligerent and began to yell at her. I did not observe her follow any hikers that went to per or went off to green blaze but she did tell hikers to tent in the vicinity of the shelter once it was full. That is a park rule meant to protect hikers from bears.
Chloe was definitely very active and energetic. She did say multiple times how crowded the site was and took multiple head counts (which is part of her job duties). But I found her to be friendly and engaging. She talked with many of the hikers for a while about movies and music and said we were a great group. She also showed us the inside of the bearbox sized toolboxes that I hiked about her powering down in and they were full to the brim with garbage left by hikers. She also told us that a hiker once left a zip lock bag full of feces at a shelter that she had to pack out.
As for what authority she has, it's not much. But she can call in hiker information so that they can be issued tickets or radio for a ranger if something more serious happens. Hopefully a second perspective of that day can add some more context. I would say that Chloe took her job seriously, but was polite and professional. In my humble opinion, I don't think she crossed any lines.
Have rarely used soap, biodegradable or otherwise, on trail to clean out a cookpot during personal solo cookware use for more than 10 yrs. Cleaning a pot doesn't have to involve H2O or soap...at all... or at every meal. In town at the next resupply location is when I completely scrub and wash and 'disinfect' cookware with H2O2 or bleach or dish soap or other soap. Easy enough to twirl a stick, spork, or a long clean finger inside cookware, rinse as needed, POSSIBLY DRINKING THE WATER(left over sauce or food in the water has a tiny bit of nourishment, it's flavored 'vitamin' water :D), which is sometimes dry camping required, and which it sounded like Starchild suggested if applicable, and then clean with plant matter, clean sand, etc. It comes from having to often conserve water on desert hikes or other water rare hikes. I'm still here...I think. ;)
Shug shows us how.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwLQcqukSug
Watched the above video with sound on. Dog jump up on the bed and started looking around hopefully.
Now or you know how I clean my pot!