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saltysack
05-05-2017, 10:12
I'm curious as to what others do when they hit the wall mid day and still have a miles to go....
Power nap, wash up with cold water and snickers seems somewhat effective but looking for options....what works for you?


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HooKooDooKu
05-05-2017, 10:24
Stop for the day, get cleaned up and go to bed early and get a fresh start the next morning.
At least that's what I did the day 'The Golden Staircase' wore me out hiking the JMT.
Most days, I was hiking until around 6:00. But that day, I setup camp at 2:00. Used the extra time to wash/dry some cloths and recharge electronic devices (solar). Got an early start the next morning, and that following day was the day I put in the most miles in a single day on the JMT.

MuddyWaters
05-05-2017, 10:25
Ive been to point where i literally couldnt take another step uphill.

1 hr break
Lots water
Food

Good to go many more miles

CalebJ
05-05-2017, 10:27
Fuel throughout the day. Think steady drip rather than stopping for big meals. If it's too late and you're already out of energy, a stop to fuel/hydrate and get off your feet mentally and physically can work wonders.

DuneElliot
05-05-2017, 10:34
I find that stopping for my main meal mid day actually really helps for the afternoon. It forces me to stop for an long break and it provides exactly the fuel I need to get going in the afternoon for big or small climbs. I don't like cooking at night when I'm exhausted so a large mid day meal really helps on two fronts.

LoneStranger
05-05-2017, 10:43
I try to get miles in early so that even if I'm not bonking I have time for a longish, middle of the day, break. Boots and socks come off and water/camp shoes go on so the toes can wiggle and socks can dry. Food bag comes out so that sausage and cheese can be wrapped in a tortilla, usually do this part twice :) All that good fat combined with some time off the feet really recharges the batteries. Usually this break lasts 30-40 minutes, but in really hot weather can be extended to put off more hiking til later in the day.

Gambit McCrae
05-05-2017, 10:47
I think im gunna starting trying to eat my big meal of the day around 1 or so. then snack at night. I usually endup not eating a whole lot bc after walking 20 miles or so my stomach is tight as a knot. results in being worn out, sick, not good stuff. But the few times I HAVE had a big lunch late in the day, the afternoon goes better, and I am not beat to hell when I stop for the day.

rocketsocks
05-05-2017, 12:29
More sugar then followed up by a not "empty card"

Venchka
05-05-2017, 13:38
I'm curious as to what others do when they hit the wall mid day and still have a miles to go....
Power nap, wash up with cold water and snickers seems somewhat effective but looking for options....what works for you?


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Nibbling all day. Jerky, nuts, seeds, Bars-Clif, Lara, Kind, 70% chocolate, fruit.
Snickers, Little Debbie's, Twinkies, etc. - Never.
Wayne


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BuckeyeBill
05-05-2017, 13:50
Snickers, nuts, Clif Bars, chocolate, a sweet drink, oh and did i mention Snickers Bar. Kick my shoes off clean my feet with cold water, check for blisters change socks if needed. After about an hour. pack up and leave.

DuneElliot
05-05-2017, 13:59
It's interesting what works for different people. I tried the snack/grazing constantly during the day but I found that it didn't give me the energy boost I needed at the midday point and to keep going when I needed it most. I am a pretty petite female so maybe that's part of it...I don't have any fat reserves to fall back on.

Puddlefish
05-05-2017, 14:02
Especially early in the hike, I stopped, aired out my feet, ate/hydrated and relaxed for a full hour. So, I'd hike from 7 am to noon, and from noon to whenever I was tired. I stopped well before I bonked out initially. Then when I finally bonked out, it was 3 pm or so, and I didn't mind stopping for the day. Later in the hike, I only stopped for a half hour or so, and then continued on until 5 to 7 pm.

devoidapop
05-05-2017, 14:48
Prunes are magic for me. I don't hike without them.

Sarcasm the elf
05-05-2017, 15:22
Ive been to point where i literally couldnt take another step uphill.

1 hr break
Lots water
Food

Good to go many more miles

This......

bigcranky
05-05-2017, 15:38
I try to get miles in early so that even if I'm not bonking I have time for a longish, middle of the day, break.

Yeah, +1 on this.

Also, Peanut M&Ms. That is all. :)

Dogwood
05-05-2017, 16:08
I'm like Caleb aiming to stay up emotionally, mentally, and physically in the first place by continual grazing but if fatiguing I go for low glycemic index foods that provide quick energy within the constructs of whole foods - a small apple, banana, coconut chips, nuts, seeds(pumpkin and sunflower and hemp well chewed), nut butters(often with the apple or banana), dark high quality chocolate(not Snackers)...Mixing a small amount of caffeine or micro ground coffee into the nut butter dipped on some apple or banana works for me too but I don't make a habit of caffeine on trail. A matcha or yerba mate or turmeric ginger drink lifts me up. I'm not aiming for a quick pump up - blood sugar spike - followed by an equally quick crash which then puts me in a roller coasting energy, mental, and emotional cycle.

I recently mentioned the quick metabolizing of MCT's - medium chain triglycerides or medium chain fatty acids - in coconut oil on the coconut thread.

Just indiscriminately going after fat and calories especially in a large midday meal can have the reverse effect of energizing depending on the sources of the ingredients. Heavy meals can take significant energy to digest. aka Holiday gorging followed by nodding out on the couch in front of the TV

A morning and then early or late afternoon dose of acetyl-L-carnitine, sustained R alpha lipoid acid, B12, Ginko biloba, broad spectrum ginseng or fresh rhizome(seng) in the Appalachians, guarana, Rhodiola rosacea,... help with the mental and physical energy.

Numerous studies demonstrate that physiology - how one holds their body - influences feelings of well being and disease. Even if one doesn't "feel like it" practice energy uplifting postures i.e.; chin up and level, shoulders back, full deep breaths, full speech, stomping happily through the rain puddles like Gene Kelly in Singing In The Rain , etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ZYhVpdXbQ Way before my time but I like being happy rather than angry, sad, or annoyed! I prefer love over hate and strife! I like rain!

I thought it was initially inane to go to a Yoga class to learn better breathing? Better breathing helps energy. Optimal oxygen is a requirement.

Being appropriately hydrated helps energy. Water is a requirement to feeling energized. The cleaner, the less adulterated, the better. Drink while imagining the pure refreshing life giving water energizing every cell in your body.

What I include in being energized is not just influenced by foods though. Emotional, mental, and spiritual aspects of being positively energized should not be discounted in themselves or in their ability to influence physical energy desires.

I aim to stay engaged, be present in the moment on hikes. Seek to appreciate things connected to hiking beyond just hiking - that rock, tree, mountain range landscape, sounds of water flowing, group of flowers, a bee, an ant, beetle, generosity/kindness/consideration/hope/love/peace emanating from people, rain, sun, taking out and staring at that pic of your son playing with the dog while holding the hand of and kissing your wife(letting those positive emotions and mental well being flow), having that pic of Nature, etc. This helps not only mentally but biochemicals are being released that affect the physical well being.

Music. Load up on music that is not only energizing with a fast tempo but uplifts with a positive message in the lyrics. C'mon if this music doesn't lift you up you may not have a pulse:

Happy, after seeing the vid, by Pharrel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Sxv-sUYtM
What A Wonderful World by Louis Armstrong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21LGv8Cf0us OR IZ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0xoMhCT-7A
There Little Birds by Bob Marley https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaGUr6wzyT8
The Walker by Fitz and the Tantrums https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGBLlFMn9Xc

Yes music has the potential to energize just as it has the potential to depress, de-energize, enlist feelings of melancholy...

Find something to laugh about. Easy, based on all the silly things we've done or experienced. Tip: gratitude- finding something to appreciate - and laughter, which as has been said is - good medicine - often go together.

Find others of a high energy level(humans and wildlife) and let it be infectious so that you feed from and contribute to each other's energy levels with the ultimate goal to uplift everyone and everything. Seek to avoid low energy people and psychic vampires. Be aware of your environment bringing you down rather than you uplifting the environment(immediate surroundings). It has an affect on your physical well being including "energy" levels.

Be aware of and engaging in exhibiting control of your thoughts. Thought life - what we mediate upon - influences energy levels in all respects including physical.

I find extra physical ability/energy when I meditate on:

Joshua 1:9. "Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go."
Philippians 4:13. "I can do all things through him who strengthens me."

The aim here in sharing all this is to recognize energy needs beyond just physical, noticing how all these aspects influence and are intertwined energetically, and by having as many avenues to "energize" as possible it makes it harder to feel physically "bonked."

See the differences in the whole person(wholistic or holistic) approach with all these different aspects interconnected similar to the whole food food approach I've endlessly been commenting about rather than reductionist theoretical scientific approach we're more accustomed in the U.S. culture?

Dogwood
05-05-2017, 16:10
One of my favorite topics - staying positively energized and how it involves more than the physical aspect in a larger interconnected and cross influenced whole.

Dogwood
05-05-2017, 16:46
Alive and Kicking by Simple Minds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljIQo1OHkTI As one You Tube poster commented "if this song doesn't make you feel like King Kong on cocaine on top of a mountain then I don't know what will,

Kyrie by Mr Mister https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NDjt4FzFWY Might want to look into what he's singing about.

Going Up Country by Canned Heat http://www.gomio.com/blog/index.php/top-ten-travel-songs-for-the-backpackers-playlist/

Search for the Hero by MPeople https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntuqTuc6HxM

Truckin by GD, so much by CCR, Allman Bros, Bob Seeger....

Don't consider bumping up energy needs - motivation to go those additional miles or overcome whatever challenges - in what seems only the physical only coming from the physical realm. LOL If you do you'll be missing out BIG TIME.

We push past physical bonking all the time. Learn MANY ways how to do that.

saltysack
05-05-2017, 17:01
I'm like Caleb aiming to stay up emotionally, mentally, and physically in the first place by continual grazing but if fatiguing I go for low glycemic index foods that provide quick energy within the constructs of whole foods - a small apple, banana, coconut chips, nuts, seeds(pumpkin and sunflower and hemp well chewed), nut butters(often with the apple or banana), dark high quality chocolate(not Snackers)...Mixing a small amount of caffeine or micro ground coffee into the nut butter dipped on some apple or banana works for me too but I don't make a habit of caffeine on trail. A matcha or yerba mate or turmeric ginger drink lifts me up. I'm not aiming for a quick pump up - blood sugar spike - followed by an equally quick crash which then puts me in a roller coasting energy, mental, and emotional cycle.

I recently mentioned the quick metabolizing of MCT's - medium chain triglycerides or medium chain fatty acids - in coconut oil on the coconut thread.

Just indiscriminately going after fat and calories especially in a large midday meal can have the reverse effect of energizing depending on the sources of the ingredients. Heavy meals can take significant energy to digest. aka Holiday gorging followed by nodding out on the couch in front of the TV

A morning and then early or late afternoon dose of acetyl-L-carnitine, sustained R alpha lipoid acid, B12, Ginko biloba, broad spectrum ginseng or fresh rhizome(seng) in the Appalachians, guarana, Rhodiola rosacea,... help with the mental and physical energy.

Numerous studies demonstrate that physiology - how one holds their body - influences feelings of well being and disease. Even if one doesn't "feel like it" practice energy uplifting postures i.e.; chin up and level, shoulders back, full deep breaths, full speech, stomping happily through the rain puddles like Gene Kelly in Singing In The Rain , etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ZYhVpdXbQ Way before my time but I like being happy rather than angry, sad, or annoyed! I prefer love over hate and strife! I like rain!

I thought it was initially inane to go to a Yoga class to learn better breathing? Better breathing helps energy. Optimal oxygen is a requirement.

Being appropriately hydrated helps energy. Water is a requirement to feeling energized. The cleaner, the less adulterated, the better. Drink while imagining the pure refreshing life giving water energizing every cell in your body.

What I include in being energized is not just influenced by foods though. Emotional, mental, and spiritual aspects of being positively energized should not be discounted in themselves or in their ability to influence physical energy desires.

I aim to stay engaged, be present in the moment on hikes. Seek to appreciate things connected to hiking beyond just hiking - that rock, tree, mountain range landscape, sounds of water flowing, group of flowers, a bee, an ant, beetle, generosity/kindness/consideration/hope/love/peace emanating from people, rain, sun, taking out and staring at that pic of your son playing with the dog while holding the hand of and kissing your wife(letting those positive emotions and mental well being flow), having that pic of Nature, etc. This helps not only mentally but biochemicals are being released that affect the physical well being.

Music. Load up on music that is not only energizing with a fast tempo but uplifts with a positive message in the lyrics. C'mon if this music doesn't lift you up you may not have a pulse:

Happy, after seeing the vid, by Pharrel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Sxv-sUYtM
What A Wonderful World by Louis Armstrong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21LGv8Cf0us OR IZ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0xoMhCT-7A
There Little Birds by Bob Marley https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaGUr6wzyT8
The Walker by Fitz and the Tantrums https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGBLlFMn9Xc

Yes music has the potential to energize just as it has the potential to depress, de-energize, enlist feelings of melancholy...

Find something to laugh about. Easy, based on all the silly things we've done or experienced. Tip: gratitude- finding something to appreciate - and laughter, which as has been said is - good medicine - often go together.

Find others of a high energy level(humans and wildlife) and let it be infectious so that you feed from and contribute to each other's energy levels with the ultimate goal to uplift everyone and everything. Seek to avoid low energy people and psychic vampires. Be aware of your environment bringing you down rather than you uplifting the environment(immediate surroundings). It has an affect on your physical well being including "energy" levels.

Be aware of and engaging in exhibiting control of your thoughts. Thought life - what we mediate upon - influences energy levels in all respects including physical.

I find extra physical ability/energy when I meditate on:

Joshua 1:9. "Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go."
Philippians 4:13. "I can do all things through him who strengthens me."

The aim here in sharing all this is to recognize energy needs beyond just physical, noticing how all these aspects influence and are intertwined energetically, and by having as many avenues to "energize" as possible it makes it harder to feel physically "bonked."

See the differences in the whole person(wholistic or holistic) approach with all these different aspects interconnected similar to the whole food food approach I've endlessly been commenting about rather than reductionist theoretical scientific approach we're more accustomed in the U.S. culture?

I'm at a loss for words.......WOW...a lot to digest!


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devoidapop
05-05-2017, 17:05
One of my favorite topics - staying positively energized and how it involves more than the physical aspect in a larger interconnected and cross influenced whole.

Lol. Couldn't tell that it was a passion of yours. Stay positive and hike on

Bati
05-05-2017, 17:05
I find that stopping for my main meal mid day actually really helps for the afternoon. It forces me to stop for an long break and it provides exactly the fuel I need to get going in the afternoon for big or small climbs. I don't like cooking at night when I'm exhausted so a large mid day meal really helps on two fronts.
Ditto. It also helps if you camp without a water source, and in cold weather you don't get as cold when you stop for the night.
In really hot weather, I try to stop at a shelter or other shaded place with water during the day and would take a five hour break or so. That way I can do most of my mile in the morning or just before and after dusk avoiding the worst of the heat and sun.
In rainy, hypothermia-inducing weather I make it a point to take several short breaks throughout the day, generally at least one an hour. I might not think I need it, but I do, and if I try to stop for 15 minutes or more I can get too cold, if I don't stop enough I get cold and tired. So many short breaks work best then and I try to eat my main meal whenever it's warm and dry enough to do so.

Dogwood
05-05-2017, 17:13
I'm at a loss for words.......WOW...a lot to digest!
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By now you should've recognized be careful what you ask for. You might get some answers.

It's not the answers necessarily, which are really only the doorway. It's what you do with them.

jj dont play
05-05-2017, 17:43
Eat. Protein mostly plus some candy.
+ Unhealthy amounts of caffeine. 5hr energy plus a gel then another gel or 5 hour 30 minutes later


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Maineiac64
05-05-2017, 18:29
I have come close to bonking while hiking once and actually bonked cycling about 2 miles from my car. It is a very bad state of affairs when the body is so depleted the energy to go on is just not there. On my cycling adventure I was able to rest for a while and very slowly struggle back to my car. Repleneshing with food and gatorade made me feel a lot better bit it was rough. I had a friend who ended up crawling to his car coming up out of the grand canyon once.

zippyd8
05-05-2017, 19:27
The sooner I can get miles in, the better. I will find shade and rest if I have to, that usually helps me to get going again.

Rmcpeak
05-05-2017, 19:38
Yeah, I won't lie. 5 hr energy has become my trail buddy. I don't carry a stove anymore, so 5HE is my morning coffee and and my after lunch pick me up. I don't eat a lot of "meals" on the trail. Instead, I just eat continually. GORP, ProBars, PNMMs, and lately, Cheetos. I am not a thru hiker but I do a fair number of sections in 50-150 mile range, going 20+ per day. I think the key to not tanking is to just eat steadily. I do some lifesavers or jolly ranchers when I want a boost (mostly mental).

LIhikers
05-05-2017, 20:19
I've found that if I don't drink enough water I run out of energy long before the day is done.
So I make a point to have a drink every 30 to 60 minutes.
It doesn't need to be a big drink but it does need to be.

fiddlehead
05-05-2017, 20:38
Take a nap!
Even a 10 minute one helps wonders.
Headnet helps for this sometimes.

evyck da fleet
05-05-2017, 23:55
If I can figure out if I'm bonking from lack of water or food quick enough I can avoid it. Otherwise it requires a two hour meal break instead of 45 minutes. So it's like waiting out a thunderstorm, I can call it an early day or squeeze in a few more hours afterwards. I always choose early and make up the miles when I'm refreshed the next day.

bigcranky
05-06-2017, 07:39
Chocolate covered espresso beans are cheaper than the little energy drinks, and have a similar effect. And they taste terrific.

Rmcpeak
05-06-2017, 08:17
Chocolate covered espresso beans are cheaper than the little energy drinks, and have a similar effect. And they taste terrific.

Good idea. I'll try that.

One Half
05-06-2017, 10:12
Sit down. Drink lots of water and eat a MEAL. The reason you bonk is inadequate nutrition and/or hydration more than likely if you are an "otherwise healthy individual."

One Half
05-06-2017, 10:13
Yeah, I won't lie. 5 hr energy has become my trail buddy. I don't carry a stove anymore, so 5HE is my morning coffee and and my after lunch pick me up. I don't eat a lot of "meals" on the trail. Instead, I just eat continually. GORP, ProBars, PNMMs, and lately, Cheetos. I am not a thru hiker but I do a fair number of sections in 50-150 mile range, going 20+ per day. I think the key to not tanking is to just eat steadily. I do some lifesavers or jolly ranchers when I want a boost (mostly mental).

Garbage as far as nutrition goes. I can't believe the number of people who expect to be able to do an endurance "event", day after day, eating like this.

/rant off/

Venchka
05-06-2017, 10:23
Garbage as far as nutrition goes. I can't believe the number of people who expect to be able to do an endurance "event", day after day, eating like this.

/rant off/

/more rant/
Pop Tarts, Moon Pies, Pop Tarts, Little Debbie's, More Pop Tarts.
I was in the local organic/vegan store one day and spied a box of organic pop tarts. I thought I would give them a try. Maybe they would change my opinion of pop tarts. Nope. Gagging sweet. Scary ingredients. And obscenely expensive relative to the generic types.
Pay attention folks.
Wayne


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saltysack
05-06-2017, 11:07
Chocolate covered espresso beans are cheaper than the little energy drinks, and have a similar effect. And they taste terrific.

I just used some dark chocolate espresso beans from Lucky's market on an endurance SUP expedition race....not sure why I've never used hiking....they seem to help some but I get immune to caffeine after a few days....after 20 hours of straight paddling I guess nothing but sleep is going to help....


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BuckeyeBill
05-06-2017, 11:12
Chocolate covered espresso beans are cheaper than the little energy drinks, and have a similar effect. And they taste terrific.

That does sound good just to have, but excellent to have when the midday wall hits.

BuckeyeBill
05-06-2017, 11:22
Yeah, I won't lie. 5 hr energy has become my trail buddy. I don't carry a stove anymore, so 5HE is my morning coffee and and my after lunch pick me up. I don't eat a lot of "meals" on the trail. Instead, I just eat continually. GORP, ProBars, PNMMs, and lately, Cheetos. I am not a thru hiker but I do a fair number of sections in 50-150 mile range, going 20+ per day. I think the key to not tanking is to just eat steadily. I do some lifesavers or jolly ranchers when I want a boost (mostly mental).

I use to drink those just in real life as on the trail, followed with Rockstar energy drink. Had a blood test one time and the doctor asked why my B-12 levels were so high. I smiled and told. He just waved his hands, shrugged his shoulders and walked out laughing.

devoidapop
05-06-2017, 11:34
https://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/probar-probar-superfood-slam-12-bars/p9-1003

I tried this bar recently and really enjoyed it. It's not visually appealing but really hit the spot halfway through a tough hike.

StubbleJumper
05-06-2017, 11:51
Garbage as far as nutrition goes. I can't believe the number of people who expect to be able to do an endurance "event", day after day, eating like this.

/rant off/



Not only do people expect to do an endurance event day after day when they eat like that, they actually *do* an endurance event day after day with that diet. Many people complete a whole long trail with a healthy dose of food like that. And why not? You get your protein, you get your carbs and you get your fat. It all gets metabolised and it all gets burned. If you are worried about vitamins or micronutrients, eat a large salad or a bunch a fruit when you get to town.
Amazing how many people complete a thru without fussing about a balanced diet...

Venchka
05-06-2017, 13:45
I'm at a loss for words.......WOW...a lot to digest!


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Quoting that dissertation added to the pain.
Lol.
Wayne


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Dogwood
05-06-2017, 14:23
Not only do people expect to do an endurance event day after day when they eat like that, they actually *do* an endurance event day after day with that diet. Many people complete a whole long trail with a healthy dose of food like that. And why not? You get your protein, you get your carbs and you get your fat. It all gets metabolised and it all gets burned. If you are worried about vitamins or micronutrients, eat a large salad or a bunch a fruit when you get to town.
Amazing how many people complete a thru without fussing about a balanced diet...

I'm amazed by your post since the thread is about energy levels and bonking potentially avoid bonking in the first place yet you are promoting some dietary misconceptions directly related to energy levels, bonking, and well being.

First, everything isn't metabolized equally! If you think it is than consume nothing but EVOO or Pepsi or Honey Buns or oranges or brussel sprouts for the next two or three days. See how that works out for you at home or on a hike. It would be more noticeable doing so for a longer duration LIKE ON A LD HIKE. BTW, buy my new book The Brussel Sprout Diet?

Second, everything isn't just "burned!" Some things can get stored...to toxic levels...EVEN ON LD THRU HIKERS. Again, everything doesn't just "burn" equally either. Different things consumed have different impacts. Some things promote inflammation. Other things have an anti inflammatory effect. Some things promote heart and brain health. Some things result in roller coasting blood sugar spikes. Other things DO NOT! *Dietary cause and effect isn't somehow suspended because one thru-hikes!!! LOL This is a common hiking community fallacy OFTEN PROMOTED BY JUNK FOOD CONSUMERS - having an on trail I'll subject myself to consuming everything without consequences attitude. NOT TRUE!

Do you really believe the rampant Ibuprofen and NSAID DRUG ABUSE occurring on and off trail being dismissed by USERS by relabeling Ibuprofen as Vitamin I can't be related to dietary decisions? Do you really believe injuries, pain, mental abilities(mental fog, recall ability, thought processing), heart and joint health, muscle recovery, endurance, emotional balance, healing, and energy levels aren't influenced by diet KNOCKING SOME OFF THEIR HIKES?

Third, waiting to obtain vitamins and micronutrients while engaged in an endurance event only once in town can easily put one in a deficient micronutrient and vitamin state related to bonking. Junk food and empty calorie dietary defensiveness is not a valid excuse for it is not inconvenient or somehow a hassle to obtain a wide spectrum of nutrients including micronutrients and vitamins BEYOND calories, protein, carbs, and fat while engaged in a LD hike in the U.S.

*Just because they are called micronutrients because we need trace amounts does NOT mean these nutrients are not required, that they are optional. My goodness electrolytes are micronutrients. Try going without them in a depleted state for long. See how that works out.

Vitamins are also not optional just because they are required in lesser amounts. Vitamins are vital to countless body functions including energy levels.

And, how do you separate micronutrients and vitamins into on trail and in town categories in the first place? :confused:

Fourth, and what has been inadequately addressed within the hiking community, because of your common trail dietary sentiments, is the opening of the door to eating disorders and possibly other complications to one's health and well being as a consequence of trail dietary choices NOTICEABLE ONLY AFTER THE LD HIKE IS OVER.
This isn't just being a little harsh with you Stubble Jumper. You probably are just regurgitating what you've been led to believe. It's the rampant commonality of these misconceptions in the hiking community that's being addressed.

Dogwood
05-06-2017, 14:25
Quoting that dissertation added to the pain.
Lol.
Wayne


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Interesting you find all those ways shared to feeling energized as being painful.

saltysack
05-06-2017, 14:42
Interesting you find all those ways shared to feeling energized as being painful.

All very much appreciated....ALL the typing would be painful as I hunt and peck!!!!!


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jj dont play
05-06-2017, 15:49
Chocolate covered espresso beans are cheaper than the little energy drinks, and have a similar effect. And they taste terrific.

Tried this had issue with them melting into one big ball...otherwise they are great


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StubbleJumper
05-06-2017, 17:12
I'm amazed by your post since the thread is about energy levels and bonking potentially avoid bonking in the first place yet you are promoting some dietary misconceptions directly related to energy levels, bonking, and well being.

Dogwood, my post was a response to a condescending statement that those who elect to eat PopTarts, Peanut M&Ms, Snickers, Fritos, or other "junk food" are somehow doing something wrong. That viewpoint is unadultered nonsense. Hikers, like all Americans, eat what they want to eat. And, you know what, most people who get to Maine have actually committed the atrocity of eating poptarts and ramen. I, for one, will not tell them that they are doing it wrong. Cripes, I ran into a fellow just before the Inn at Long Trail who was eating a 200 gram bag of potato chips per day. Whatever floats his boat.

First, everything isn't metabolized equally! If you think it is than consume nothing but EVOO or Pepsi or Honey Buns or oranges or brussel sprouts for the next two or three days. See how that works out for you at home or on a hike. It would be more noticeable doing so for a longer duration LIKE ON A LD HIKE. BTW, buy my new book The Brussel Sprout Diet?

Now you are being silly. Of course fats, proteins and carbs are not metabolized equally, and obviously they are not interchangeable. I do not believe that anyone ever asserted that. Not did anyone in this thread ever assert that somebody should eat only HoneyBuns, Pepsi or brussel sprouts.

Second, everything isn't just "burned!" Some things can get stored...to toxic levels...EVEN ON LD THRU HIKERS. Again, everything doesn't just "burn" equally either. Different things consumed have different impacts. Some things promote inflammation. Other things have an anti inflammatory effect. Some things promote heart and brain health. Some things result in roller coasting blood sugar spikes. Other things DO NOT! *Dietary cause and effect isn't somehow suspended because one thru-hikes!!! LOL This is a common hiking community fallacy OFTEN PROMOTED BY JUNK FOOD CONSUMERS - having an on trail I'll subject myself to consuming everything without consequences attitude. NOT TRUE!
Nice try, Dogwood. EVERYTHING is toxic in the right levels. That's no secret. You can get protein poisoning, you can even consume toxic quantities of water. And of course, not everything is burned equally, that's just plain obvious. But for a guy burning 5,000 calories per day and eating 3,500 it all gets burned, and more. Frankly, any inflammation from food is the least of a hiker's concern; it's the 20 miles of rough terrain that is the issue!

Do you really believe the rampant Ibuprofen and NSAID DRUG ABUSE occurring on and off trail being dismissed by USERS by relabeling Ibuprofen as Vitamin I can't be related to dietary decisions? Do you really believe injuries, pain, mental abilities(mental fog, recall ability, thought processing), heart and joint health, muscle recovery, endurance, emotional balance, healing, and energy levels aren't influenced by diet KNOCKING SOME OFF THEIR HIKES?

Who the hell was talking about ibuprofen in this thread? Really, hiking 20 miles per day over rough terrain is more than most people typically do. Some people choose to use ibuprofen to manage the unusual level of physical activity. Whatever, it's a free country. People are adults and can read the label and decide whether they want to make Advil a daily affair (ie, vitamin I) or take it less often. My only observation on this is is that it's not people's diet *during* the hike that's usually the problem, but rather that too many of us *begin* our hike out of shape and 15 or 20 pounds overweight (or, gasp!, more). Once you get in trail shape and lose some weight, who even need ibuprofen?


Third, waiting to obtain vitamins and micronutrients while engaged in an endurance event only once in town can easily put one in a deficient micronutrient and vitamin state related to bonking. Junk food and empty calorie dietary defensiveness is not a valid excuse for it is not inconvenient or somehow a hassle to obtain a wide spectrum of nutrients including micronutrients and vitamins BEYOND calories, protein, carbs, and fat while engaged in a LD hike in the U.S.

Poppycock. Even the "worst" hiking food has some level of vitamins and micronutrients, so it's not as if people are getting zero while on the trail. And, when people gorge themselves in town every fourth day, they eat 5,000 to 10,000 calories per day and end up getting a good dose of vitamins. Those who are particularly concerned about it can eat their Flintstone vitamin every day. But I would point out that I have not heard of a single documented case of scurvy on Mt Katadin!

*Just because they are called micronutrients because we need trace amounts does NOT mean these nutrients are not required, that they are optional. My goodness electrolytes are micronutrients. Try going without them in a depleted state for long. See how that works out.

I don't believe that anybody ever said in this thread that micronutrients were not required. People get some from their trail food, and then when they eat 10,000 calories in town every fourth day, they get a bunch more.

Vitamins are also not optional just because they are required in lesser amounts. Vitamins are vital to countless body functions including energy levels.
And, how do you separate micronutrients and vitamins into on trail and in town categories in the first place? :confused:

Nobody (other than you) ever asserted that vitamins were optional. Nobody (other than you) ever asserted that you could separate vitamins from trail vs non-trail food. I believe that I asserted that you can eat a healthy amount of fruit and veg and drink a litre of milk when you hit the grocery store in town, and that would largely offset any deficiency that you incur from eating your Poptarts on the trail (but, it's true that the strawberry filling in a Poptart probably does have some minimal vitamin content, just as the pouch of salmon has a considerable dose of protein and antioxidants).


Fourth, and what has been inadequately addressed within the hiking community, because of your common trail dietary sentiments, is the opening of the door to eating disorders and possibly other complications to one's health and well being as a consequence of trail dietary choices NOTICEABLE ONLY AFTER THE LD HIKE IS OVER.


My friend, please do not bring eating disorders into this discussion. They are a very sad fact of life for a (thankfully) small number of people. To date, I've neither heard nor read about any hiker who suddenly became anorexic or bullemic after summitting Katahdin.


This isn't just being a little harsh with you Stubble Jumper. You probably are just regurgitating what you've been led to believe. It's the rampant commonality of these misconceptions in the hiking community that's being addressed.


More nonsense. I am regurgitating nothing. There are no misconceptions within the hiking community about food. People know they need lots of calories. They know they need protein (and they crave it!). People will eat what they want to eat. My problem is with the Food Jehovahs who evangelise that there is only one diet that will get you to heaven (er, I mean to Maine). It's has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with religion.

Venchka
05-06-2017, 18:00
Interesting you find all those ways shared to feeling energized as being painful.

Key phrase: LOL.
But seriously. When a reply, from anyone, exceeds 2 screens full on my phone my eyes glaze over and I loose interest. Quoting said post is overkill.
I may have finally seen the light. Folks eat whatever it takes to keep them alive AND they can find in resupply stores AND! they can afford.
I may not like Pop Tarts, but I'll eat them if needed. I dare say you would too if push came to shove.
Cheers.
Wayne


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dogwood
05-06-2017, 18:40
Now you are being misleading to cover yourself after the fact of what you said because you certainly have implied previously, and are now directly declaring, eat anything, it all metaboli(z)es and is burned implying it doesn't relate to the thread topic - being energized not bonking. That is being a Food Jehovah my friend...which you choose to just label me with. I related my comments to the topic. I suggest we keep it on track.

You are communicating about food that demonstrates you do not comprehend what metaboli(z)ing is, what it involves, how it occurs, and most importantly how important it is to the thread topic?

You demonstrate a defensiveness based on you not knowing how metabolizing differs based on what we consume only contemptuously mentioning it after being called out on your comment. You totally ignored that point which is significant to the topic. Umm, it's obvious you're attempting to backtrack by masking it in defensiveness and mockery?

You certainly did imply micronutrients and vitamins weren't daily required in adequate amounts when YOU said, "if you are worried about vitamins or micronutrients, eat a large salad or a bunch a fruit when you get to town." You and others in the hiking community have a mistaken idea that a term of micronutrient and vitamin deficiency, and also calorie deficiency, can always be "made up" without consequences by gorging in town. This is another fallacy.

Where I agree with you 100% yes "people (do) expect to do an endurance event day after day when they eat like that, they actually *do* an endurance event day after day with that diet"... but you conveniently ignore that it is being *done* with possible and likely consequences which others also do...ignoring dietary cause and effect. And, absolutely YES I will NOT ignore extending those possible health and well being consequences of diet while on trail during a hike or post hike for your convenience of defending an attitude of eat anything with no repercussions - it all metabolizes and burns - belief.

Dogwood
05-06-2017, 18:51
You certainly did imply micronutrients and vitamins weren't daily required in adequate amounts when YOU said, "if you are worried about vitamins or micronutrients, eat a large salad or a bunch a fruit when you get to town." You and others in the hiking community have a mistaken idea that a term of micronutrient and vitamin deficiency, and also calorie deficiency, can always be "made up" without consequences by gorging in town. This is another fallacy.

This is absolutely vital to understand as it relates directly to daily bonking and being energized.

It also relates to possible health and eating disorders. Ignoring consequences of diet even in the context of LD hiking is a misconception. Every Olympic, professional athlete, M.D. and health conscious person knows diet can not be ignored without consequences.

DownEaster
05-06-2017, 19:15
I've found that it's important to wear a watch on the trail. That way it's easy to snack in anticipation of low blood sugar "danger times" (roughly 11:00 and 15:00) between major meals, when falls and injuries are more likely. And a 5 minute break each hour, pack off and sitting to take the weight off my feet, doing nothing more strenuous than rehydrating, is a good habit that's made easier by wearing a watch. So, mostly I try to avoid "hitting the wall".

If I do "hit the wall", I figure it's my body's way of telling me to take a siesta. So I'll bathe to get the salt off; set out my ground sheet, pad, and sleeping bag; and spend a couple hours napping, reading, or listening to music. After the siesta I'll cook a meal. Then I decide if I've got my hiking mojo back and press on for the rest of the day, or pitch my tent and get as much more rest as I need.

StubbleJumper
05-06-2017, 19:17
Now you are being misleading to cover yourself after the fact of what you said because you certainly have implied previously, and are now directly declaring, eat anything, it all metaboli(z)es and is burned implying it doesn't relate to the thread topic - being energized not bonking. That is being a Food Jehovah my friend...which you choose to just label me with. I related my comments to the topic. I suggest we keep it on track.

You are communicating about food that demonstrates you do not comprehend what metaboli(z)ing is, what it involves, how it occurs, and most importantly how important it is to the thread topic?

You demonstrate a defensiveness based on you not knowing how metabolizing differs based on what we consume only contemptuously mentioning it after being called out on your comment. You totally ignored that point which is significant to the topic. Umm, it's obvious you're attempting to backtrack by masking it in defensiveness and mockery?

You certainly did imply micronutrients and vitamins weren't daily required in adequate amounts when YOU said, "if you are worried about vitamins or micronutrients, eat a large salad or a bunch a fruit when you get to town." You and others in the hiking community have a mistaken idea that a term of micronutrient and vitamin deficiency, and also calorie deficiency, can always be "made up" without consequences by gorging in town. This is another fallacy.

Where I agree with you 100% yes "people (do) expect to do an endurance event day after day when they eat like that, they actually *do* an endurance event day after day with that diet"... but you conveniently ignore that it is being *done* with possible and likely consequences which others also do...ignoring dietary cause and effect. And, absolutely YES I will NOT ignore extending those possible health and well being consequences of diet while on trail during a hike or post hike for your convenience of defending an attitude of eat anything with no repercussions - it all metabolizes and burns - belief.


More garbage.

I wrote a single paragraph pointing out that there are many diets that will get you to Katahdin and you responded with three-quarters of a page of unrelated assertions.

Many people provided suggestions in this thread about their approach to avoiding bonking. That's fine, whatever works for them. It's nice that they share their experience with others. If somebody says that Peanut M&Ms works, then that's a good data point. Somebody else says to take a long break, and that's good insight. A third person says to stop and drink a bunch of water, and that's an interesting observation. A fourth person says to stop and eat a whole, proper meal, and that's also an interesting bit of experience.

Where I draw the line is with the Food Jehovahs who dismiss others' experience to evangelise their personal beliefs. The only way to get to Katahdin is to eat diet XXXX. If you assert that, then you are completely deserving of mockery, because frankly almost everybody who has ever made a long hike has not adhered to the complex diet that a few people claim is critical.

Your personal food religion should embarrass you. Thousands of people have hiked from Georgia to Maine and relied mainly on Poptarts, ramen, Idahoan and Knorr. And you know what? Their health at the end of their trip is drastically better than at the beginning. There is no credible evidence that anyone has suffered adverse health consequences, other than unfortunate circumstances of injury, lyme or other conditions entirely unrelated to diet.

While there is no credible evidence that a large dose of natural vitamins consumed every fourth day when you gorge yourself by eating 5,000 or 10,000 calories in town is unhealthy, for those who fuss about it, they can always take their daily Flintstone vitamin.

Dogwood, if you are going to preach, it onus on you is to prove that 150 days of a variable diet (ie, 3 days of mediocre nutrition and 1 day of intense nutrition when people eat heavily in town) has a long-term consequence. You are the one who is telling everybody else that they are doing it wrong.

Malto
05-06-2017, 19:20
I have had three cases of hitting the wall and it is very manageable.
1) Avoid it. Constantly metering in calories especially carbs will keep your glycogen reserves full. I try to maintain 250-300 calories, primarily carbs per hour of walking. Maintaining this drip AND maintaining a fitness level that efficiently burns fat completely keeps the wall at bay.
2) what kind of carbs? It doesn't matter. I have tested pure maltodextrin, pure sugar, complex carbs etc. and have found NO difference from a fueling perspective. (there are difference in otherall nutrition but that's a different topic.). The key is metering in the calories.
3) what if you feel the wall approaching. Stop and refuel immediately. High sugar the moment you stop while your body can still process it into glycogen. Rest for a while., that will allow fat to be burned further filling up your reserves.
4) View glycogen (google Hammer Nutrition and glycogen to learn more.) as a tank holding let's say 1500 calories. You are draining the tank at a certain rate. The higher the exertion the faster the drain. You replenish with fat burning and additional stores from eating. But you can only process 200-300 calories per hours and that is primarily from carbs. If exertion exceeds the fat burn and carb intake you will drain the tank. When it gets empty you bonk. In Marathons this happens to some at about mile 18-20. Or maybe 3-4 hours. Hiking will be nowhere near as fast because the calorie burn will,generally not be as great as running.
5) fitness level. You can train your body to become a more efficient fat burning machine. I believe this is especially important for non-thru hikes where you can use stored body fat as an important fuel source. In general, minimize carb intake on training hikes. Your body will learn to process fat increasing your ability to replenish energy stores during the "event". Combine that will metered intake of carbs and life is happy. This is how ultra runners are able to run 50-100 miles in a day and not hit the wall.

Dogwood
05-06-2017, 20:59
Yes, my friend, more garbage, more ignoring of what was said as I related it to the topic. Don't misrepresent what I said by taking it out of that context as it certainly does relate to answering the OP's question. How about you keep it pertaining to the topic as well? :p

StubbleJumper
05-06-2017, 21:13
Yes, my friend, more garbage, more ignoring of what was said as I related it to the topic. Don't misrepresent what I said by taking it out of that context as it certainly does relate to answering the OP's question. How about you keep it pertaining to the topic as well? :p

So show us the adverse health outcomes from those who made heavy use of ramen, Idahoan, Lipton, Snickers and Peanut M&Ms. Many people in this thread offered their personal strategy for managing bonking (you will note that I have not yet stated what I personally have tried). Two people, yourself included, have effectively stated that nearly everybody else's strategy is wrong, despite the demonstrable bulk of evidence that most people who summit Katahdin don't use your nutritional strategy.

What you have provided is dogma, Dogwood. It's no biggie, but just keep an open mind that your personal view on this could be incorrect.

Venchka
05-06-2017, 21:26
Malto,
Thanks for concise explanation. It's a good refresher of information from long ago.
Wayne


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rmcpeak
05-06-2017, 21:51
This stuff ain't that complicated. Homo Sapiens is an evolved long distance walker. Spear an antelope. Track it for 40 miles. Eat. Michael Pollan comes to mind: Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

Traillium
05-06-2017, 22:02
+1 for Malto's suggestions. As a race-walker, this worked for me.
Despite the vitriol, there's good stuff in the comments of others too. But too much chaff to thresh off …

devoidapop
05-06-2017, 23:35
+1 for Malto's suggestions. As a race-walker, this worked for me.
Despite the vitriol, there's good stuff in the comments of others too. But too much chaff to thresh off …

Word up! This community is built on positivity.

Malto
05-07-2017, 20:53
Yes, my friend, more garbage, more ignoring of what was said as I related it to the topic. Don't misrepresent what I said by taking it out of that context as it certainly does relate to answering the OP's question. How about you keep it pertaining to the topic as well? :p
Actually I agree with you all in all. But when it comes to just looking at fueling we part ways.

egilbe
05-07-2017, 21:28
I've bonked a few times, resting, eating and drinking usually fixes it after 30 minutes or so. The first time, I just laid down on the trail. I was sick to my stomach. After 10 or 15 minutes or so it passed. Didn't eat or drink anything that time. Only had half mile or so to the car, so it wasn't too bad.

Next time it happened, I know I was dehydrated and it was hot. Bad combo. Started chugging water and snacking like crazy and took 10 minute breaks after every 10 minutes of hiking until we go to the top of the mountain and then we hung out and talked to the sobos walking by.

Now, I'll eat a probar, or Larabar, every few hours, make sure I'm urinating a few times during the day, snack on dried fruit and nuts while Im hiking. Seems to work much better. Hills are easier and I'm never in an energy hole i'm trying to eat my way out of.

Leo L.
05-08-2017, 03:34
I've never taken care about fueling or nutrition, I just ate when I was hungry and an opportunity to sit down was present (and if I even had packed food).
But now as I'm growing older, my body tells me more precise that he needs "something" at times.

Interesting observation during our desert trip this spring:
We had a local guide (Bedouin) and were climbing up&down the whole day, pretty demanding.
We had local food only, which comes down to bread, cheese and tuna, and some vegetables, which we got for lunch (and we had a big dinner in the evening - but same kind of food)
The Bedouin insisted to stop for a tea break every 2hrs roughly. He would make a small fire, boil water and make Bedouin tea: A small handfull of tea, two big handfull of sugar, let it simmer in the pot for a minute, done.
This way we kept going for 10 days, and we never ran out of energy, we were just fine the whole time.
It took me some time to realize that we were fueled mostly by sugar.

futureatwalker
05-09-2017, 03:23
Interesting thread.

I did a section hike of Georgia a few years ago, and ran into a friendly older hiker named Bama. Her advise was to take a full break every hour.

And that's what I now do. Every 55 minutes, I shed my pack and get off of my feet. I take my shoes off if my feet are hot, and have a snack. 5 minutes later, I'm up and walking again.

From the energy perspective, there is evidence from cyclists I (and anecdotally, my own experience in ultra marathons, plus the Bedouins above) that sugar delays fatigue. On long runs, I even bring some flat cola. This wouldn't really work on the trail, but some type of sports drink powder (Gatorade) might do the trick if you are consistently running low on energy at mid-day.