How much decline of biological life has there been along the AT over its history?

[greenmtnboy]

I am a fan of early US literature like that of James Fennimore Cooper, "Last of the Mohicans" and other books. The sense that you get from reading the great historical American books is that we have lost a tremendous amount of biological life, animal life, fertility of the ground with attendant health of living things along the Appalachian chain. Sure you see bear, moose, deer, lots of bird life, but nothing like it was in the early 1800s. What percentage of life have we lost in the last 200 years, 100 years, 50 years due to pollution, acid rain, over hunting/killing?

[Bronk]

There is a species of parrots that used to range all over north america that is now extinct...theory being that their habitat was old growth forest and we cut down most of the trees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_parakeet

[Slo-go'en]

I think you got to go back farther then the early 1800's. When you hike the AT, you will see miles and miles of rock walls. This was all once farm land. 90% of Vermont was deforested for sheep. Between clearing land for farms, building materials and fuel, much of the east coast forest was clear cut. Because of this and other reasons, wildlife was decimated. It wasn't until after the Civil war that they finally got to remote areas of NH, ME and NC to clear cut and only because these were the only areas left to "harvest".

[Runner2017]

I am a fan of early US literature like that of James Fennimore Cooper, "Last of the Mohicans" and other books. The sense that you get from reading the great historical American books is that we have lost a tremendous amount of biological life, animal life, fertility of the ground with attendant health of living things along the Appalachian chain. Sure you see bear, moose, deer, lots of bird life, but nothing like it was in the early 1800s. What percentage of life have we lost in the last 200 years, 100 years, 50 years due to pollution, acid rain, over hunting/killing?
About five years ago, from Missouri to Georgia, a squirrel could have hopped from tree to tree without needing to touch ground. That's what I learned in the National Museum of Natural History.

[MuddyWaters]

Mature woods arent that good for wildlife.
the dense canopy blocks out sunlight, theres little substory growth which provides food and cover for many species.


There are more deer in the US today, than ever before, on a tiny fraction of the land, due to this.

We placed bounties on nusiance animals like cougars and hunted them to extinction intentionally.
The loss of the great chestnuts , which defined the appalachians, removed important food source and no doubt changed the distributin of species.
Native americans hunted species to extinction, and extirpated others as well.

99.9% of the species which have ever lived on the earth, have died out, before the rise of mankind too. As good at creating life as the earth is, its just as good at extinguishing it. maybe better.

[Feral Bill]

About five years ago, from Missouri to Georgia, a squirrel could have hopped from tree to tree without needing to touch ground. That's what I learned in the National Museum of Natural History. Maybe 500?

[Runner2017]

Maybe 500?
yes about five HUNDRED years ago before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

[swjohnsey]

Aren't many animals along the AT and probably never were. Ridgeline don't provide much food.

[DownEaster]

How far back do you want to go? Horses originated in North America about 3.4 million years ago, and spread to Eurasia over the many times the Bering land bridge appeared. When the large human migration to North America from Siberia occurred 11,000+ years ago, they wiped out the horse population. (Admittedly, the evidence here is more coincidental than causal; archaeologists have found only a couple of spear points in horse skeletons in northwest Canada. However, apart from some mysterious horse plague, there isn't another good explanation for why horses went extinct just after large numbers of humans appeared on the scene.)

So, way back when, horses were plentiful in the Great Appalachian Valley (west of the range from Alabama through the Green Mountains). The few wild ponies along the AT are distantly related to the ancient horses which originated on this continent.

[Deadeye]

About five years ago, from Missouri to Georgia, a squirrel could have hopped from tree to tree without needing to touch ground. That's what I learned in the National Museum of Natural History.

5 or 500, either way that squirrel would have needed to be a darn good swimmer to get across the Mississippi!

There are lots of animal species whose populations have waxed and waned with the changing landscape.

[TX Aggie]

Mature woods arent that good for wildlife.
the dense canopy blocks out sunlight, theres little substory growth which provides food and cover for many species.


There are more deer in the US today, than ever before, on a tiny fraction of the land, due to this.

We placed bounties on nusiance animals like cougars and hunted them to extinction intentionally.
The loss of the great chestnuts , which defined the appalachians, removed important food source and no doubt changed the distributin of species.
Native americans hunted species to extinction, and extirpated others as well.

99.9% of the species which have ever lived on the earth, have died out, before the rise of mankind too. As good at creating life as the earth is, its just as good at extinguishing it. maybe better.

Always one realist in the group that doesn't buy into the groupthink.

One problem: cougars are definitely not extinct. In fact, they're starting to spread again.

People think that change that comes from human activity is "bad" but ignore the amount of change that has occurred in the natural record before we arrived. We've been here a blip compared to the history of the earth, and to think we can be more destructive than nature itself is the epitome of arrogance.


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[MuddyWaters]

One problem: cougars are definitely not extinct. In fact, they're starting to spread again.

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The eastern cougar, is a different animal from the western.
No breeding populations are known. The florida panther is a subspecies of eastern cougar.

The eastern cougar was changed from endangered to extinct in 2015. 80 yrs after last official sighting. Most sightings are in error. The few that arent, are escaped or released animals that are western cougars.

I can recall one project in 80s that introduced a population of western cougars into an area in florida to see if they could survive, as a means of expanding the florida panthers range. Radio collared of course. Even with large deer population to prey on, they either starved to death or wandered out of the area in a short time, not being able to adapt to the different terrain and prey.

[TX Aggie]

The eastern cougar, is a different animal from the western.
No breeding populations are known. The florida panther is a subspecies of eastern cougar.

The eastern cougar was changed from endangered to extinct in 2015. 80 yrs after last official sighting. Most sightings are in error. The few that arent, are escaped or released animals that are western cougars.

I can recall one project in 80s that introduced a population of western cougars into an area in florida to see if they could survive, as a means of expanding the florida panthers range. Radio collared of course. Even with large deer population to prey on, they either starved to death or wandered out of the area in a short time, not being able to adapt to the different terrain and prey.

Didn't realize they distinguished between eastern and western.


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[lonehiker]

Didn't realize they distinguished between eastern and western.


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There is no genetic difference between "eastern" and "western" cougars.

[TX Aggie]

There is no genetic difference between "eastern" and "western" cougars.

Guess that's why I never realized there was a difference.

[TexasBob]

In George Washington's time there were elk in the Shenandoah Valley. You could probably have heard them bugle back then from where the AT is in Shenandoah National Park today.

[Traveler]

There is no genetic difference between "eastern" and "western" cougars.
The debate is long and old on that sub-species of cougar which resided in the northeastern US. Most of those involved in this issue believe most of the Eastern cougars were destroyed in the 1800s with human population expansion into their native areas. The last known sightings were in the 1930s, they were eventually put on the endangered species list in 1973.

Suffice to say, the cats formerly known as the Eastern Cougar were pronounced extinct after some 80 years of not having any found in the wild. Their cousins, the Western Cougar are doing well however and occasionally one of those will wander out into the eastern coastal states to see what they can see and cause some excitement when they are seen.

[MuddyWaters]

There is no genetic difference between "eastern" and "western" cougars.
Based on a somewhat questionable single study, reviewed by a total of 1 person.

Which the USFS never accepted. Sticking to a 1946 study that analyzed 8 animals and observed differences. The florida panther has definite observeable differences as well and is still classified as a subspecies of cougar, regardless of if eastern and western are different, or not.

If you want to say all cougars are the same, thats incorrect already based on the florida panther. Which used to roam as far north as TN.

[Slo-go'en]

People think that change that comes from human activity is "bad" but ignore the amount of change that has occurred in the natural record before we arrived. We've been here a blip compared to the history of the earth, and to think we can be more destructive than nature itself is the epitome of arrogance.

I don't know, seems we've done a significant amount of damage in a remarkably short period of time. And then some. Humans have been transforming the landscape and influencing which species thrive (those we find useful) and which that don't (those which were a threat) for many thousands of years.

Once we reached critical mass in the 20th century, we really started to have an impact. We may very well have stopped the onset of the next ice age in it's tracks. As much as an other ice age wouldn't be good for us as a species, neither is cooking the planet. The question none of us will see answered is have we already passed the point of no return and there is nothing we can do to keep from frying, or if we do drastically reduce CO2 and methane from the atmosphere, will this trigger a sudden onset to an ice age?

Either way, in a million years or two, there probably isn't going to be much sign we were ever here.

[SWODaddy]

Mature woods arent that good for wildlife.
the dense canopy blocks out sunlight, theres little substory growth which provides food and cover for many species.


There are more deer in the US today, than ever before, on a tiny fraction of the land, due to this.

We placed bounties on nusiance animals like cougars and hunted them to extinction intentionally.
The loss of the great chestnuts , which defined the appalachians, removed important food source and no doubt changed the distributin of species.
Native americans hunted species to extinction, and extirpated others as well.

99.9% of the species which have ever lived on the earth, have died out, before the rise of mankind too. As good at creating life as the earth is, its just as good at extinguishing it. maybe better.

This. I'll add, it's the temerity of man to assume that a forest has some natural/end state. Forests are always in a state of flux.

[SWODaddy]

. The question none of us will see answered is have we already passed the point of no return and there is nothing we can do to keep from frying, or if we do drastically reduce CO2 and methane from the atmosphere, will this trigger a sudden onset to an ice age?


This is why a growing number of folks ignore these environmental cataclysm predictions (which are always wrong looking back) - if you're right, we might as well have a bonfire and enjoy our ensuing end.

I'm sure humans have an impact on the climate, but I'm not sure to what degree. I think we can both agree that solutions which don't involve developing nations like China or India are fruitless (China generates far more carbon than us) - but who are you sitting on you iPad in Starbucks to say that an Indian family shouldn't have heat in their home to save the earth? Why should we cripple our economy to subsidize nations with no environmental controls?

What if we're wrong and the sun is the primary driver to climate change?

[Dan Roper]

There is no net decline in biological life. We've lost many things, but they've been replaced by other organisms. The American chestnut is nearly gone, it's place taken by the yellow poplar, white ash, white oak and other species. The passenger pigeon and Carolina parakeet are gone; their places are taken by the fish crow and the European starling and the Eurasian collared dove and dozens of other species; the cougar and the gray wolf are gone, but the white-tailed deer populations have expanded in response.

Bill Bryson included information about the great decrease in eastern songbirds. If you re-read that section, you'll see that (according to his calculations) there should be zero songbirds along the Appalachian Trail today. But there are just as many as ever, albeit in different proportions.

The person who posted about the forestation of American is correct. The forest in the eastern half of America today is much greater than it was 250 years ago. The vast meadows and plains have been claimed as forestland.

Mankind is capable of doing terrible things to the earth - grading mountains to building Wal-Mart shopping centers (see Ellijay, Georgia, for a perfect example), sprinkling our landscape with cellphone towers so that hikers can check in with their families and have access to maps that tell them where to go next), pouring pollution into the air and water. We harm the environment, but the earth responds and matches our mistakes, step by step. Kudzu and privet thrive where native cane once grew; woodland birds have succeeded the bobwhite quail as it's grassland habitat gave way to forestland; foreign mussels and plant life thrive in ponds and waterways.

The net amount of biological life isn't threatened by our excesses and abuses, but the composition that existed for thousands of years is.

P.S. As for James Fennimore Cooper, read Mark Twain's analysis of his excesses as a writer.

[lonehiker]

If you want to say all cougars are the same, thats incorrect already based on the florida panther. Which used to roam as far north as TN.

I didn't say anything about the Florida panther. If/when the "western" mountain lion moves east. Your "eastern" cougar will no longer be extinct.

[rickb]

People think that change that comes from human activity is "bad" but ignore the amount of change that has occurred in the natural record before we arrived. We've been here a blip compared to the history of the earth, and to think we can be more destructive than nature itself is the epitome of arrogance.


I will probably not be able to prove it to your satisfaction, but I think it really is "settled science" that the number of migratory birds (including warblers on the AT) has been dramatically reduced within our own lifetimes due to human activity.

While than may not seem important to many, I think the same can be said for the number of fish in the ocean.

That should be a cause for alarm for everyone -- and not just because of the price for scrod and and scallops at Whole Foods.

[Sandy of PA]

How many bison do you see wandering along the trail? Their range used to include the east.

[MuddyWaters]

How many bison do you see wandering along the trail? Their range used to include the east.

Before human are thought to have came to N america, as little as 13500 yrs ago
There were mammoths and mastodons, giant bison, giant ground sloths, horses, giant beavers, giant tortoises, and predators like the sabre toorh tiger and giant short nosed bear.(twice the size of a grizzly), cheetahs, giant wolves, lions, jaguars.

When humans wiped out the mega fauna prey, the predators died off as well. Or so they theorize. Climate change exiting the ice age also probably did them in. Temps were only something like 20 F cooler on avg. If I recall correctly.

[greenmtnboy]

I was just thinking of the last couple hundred years or 100 years since the AT came about. My sense is that the outdoors has become a lot less alive, the ground less fertile, and resilient.

[Venchka]

In George Washington's time there were elk in the Shenandoah Valley. You could probably have heard them bugle back then from where the AT is in Shenandoah National Park today.

Meanwhile,
Elk flourish in Kentucky.
http://www.rmefnky.org/kyelkherd.HTML
Grizz are making a comeback in Montana and Wyoming.
Transplanted wolves are well established in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem.
Wayne


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[MuddyWaters]

I was just thinking of the last couple hundred years or 100 years since the AT came about. My sense is that the outdoors has become a lot less alive, the ground less fertile, and resilient.
Not really.
Before "conservation" and seasons and limits, animals were market hunted to the brink.
Northern whitetail deer, for instance, were brought down from michigan and restocked in the southern states. In the 1930s you could go a whole season in areas and not see a track. The deer populations in restocked areas rut at time northern deer do because of this, while native deer a few miles away rut a month later. The duck population was wiped out by market hunting, as was passenger pigeon which was made extinct. Much of the AT also had been logged . Only parts of gsmnp that werent logged was a few spots they couldnt yet get a railroad track to. What old growth wasnt logged, died in chestnut blight. Actually that encouraged widespread logging so wood wouldnt go to waste.

Also cant forget much of trail was originally on roads, etc.

[egilbe]

I was watching a documentary on pre-historic Americans. There is geological evidence that a glacially locked lake of meltwater was suddenly realeased into the North Atlantic, possibly caused by an asteroid impact, that supercooled the ocean and changing weather patterns and drying out the North American continent, wiping out the megafauna and most early humans. Evidence has been found that clovis points migrated east to west, not west to east and that early settlers came from Europe, initially. Early human civilization was wiped out by this catastrophic event that also wiped out themegafauna.

[TX Aggie]

I don't know, seems we've done a significant amount of damage in a remarkably short period of time. And then some. Humans have been transforming the landscape and influencing which species thrive (those we find useful) and which that don't (those which were a threat) for many thousands of years.

Once we reached critical mass in the 20th century, we really started to have an impact. We may very well have stopped the onset of the next ice age in it's tracks. As much as an other ice age wouldn't be good for us as a species, neither is cooking the planet. The question none of us will see answered is have we already passed the point of no return and there is nothing we can do to keep from frying, or if we do drastically reduce CO2 and methane from the atmosphere, will this trigger a sudden onset to an ice age?

Either way, in a million years or two, there probably isn't going to be much sign we were ever here.

And that's my cue to exit this topic before I offend someone.

[Venchka]

And that's my cue to exit this topic before I offend someone.

Please don't get in my way.
Once again we seem to agree.
Wayne


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[George]

How many bison do you see wandering along the trail? Their range used to include the east.

I always guessed that deer have stepped into the bisons slot - able to thrive better in present conditions than past

[George]

when the sun burns out all the influence of man will be of little significance

[Feral Bill]

when the sun burns out all the influence of man will be of little significance Excellent! No more of this LNT nonsense.

[TX Aggie]

Please don't get in my way.
Once again we seem to agree.
Wayne


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I'm more than willing to engage in spirited debate, just not on this forum. There are other outlets better served for that, I come here for more relaxing purposes.


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[Venchka]

I'm more than willing to engage in spirited debate, just not on this forum. There are other outlets better served for that, I come here for more relaxing purposes.


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Agreed.
Happy hiking! Are we in Wyoming yet?
Wayne


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[TexasBob]

I'm more than willing to engage in spirited debate, just not on this forum. There are other outlets better served for that, I come here for more relaxing purposes.

Better to stick with non noncontroversial subjects like the best way to use hiking pole straps, the best stove to use, treating your clothes for ticks etc. ;)

[TX Aggie]

Agreed.
Happy hiking! Are we in Wyoming yet?
Wayne


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Hopefully one day soon.


Better to stick with non noncontroversial subjects like the best way to use hiking pole straps, the best stove to use, treating your clothes for ticks etc. ;)
Exactly.



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[Venchka]

Don't forget sleeping bags vs. Quilts or liners that add 25 degrees to your sleeping system and weigh nothing.
Wayne


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[Starchild]

The Housatonic River is interesting to me. It is contaminated, so no fish can be taken from it. As a result the fish are plentiful and many very large. On a Kayak trip I was amazed at the size and number and I did recall reading some of the early settlers letters talking about rivers teeming with fish. To actually see that really was eye opening of what we have lost, and very ironically how here we got it back.

[Roll Tide]

Talked with a US Forest Service guy in southern Virginia a few weeks back. He was listening for birds at designated spots in the forest. Said he has been doing this for 30 years and that there are less birds now than 30 years ago.

[VT-Mike]

Yes, just like the newest flourishing national park in Russia! Chernobyl!! The place has been reclaimed by lots of wildlife. They might be a wee bit hot, radioactive but abundant. Sure some other life will repopulate an altered environment but at what cost, of what quality? And ultimately for who's benefit or more likely profit? Frame the argument how you like but IMHO it all boils down to profits. Whats your/my return on investment?

[Berserker]

Chestnut trees used to dominate the Appalachians until the blight that was introduced by man. It was probably mentioned by an earlier poster but if not, yeah that's a big 'un there. Now all that's left of 'em is an occasional chestnut "bush"...i.e. a tree that is trying to grow, but will not make it past a certain point because the blight becomes active once it's a certain age and kills it. So these are easy to spot. Look for the saw tooth leaves, and then look for a dead trunk that is often in the middle of the "bush".

[Venchka]

Talked with a US Forest Service guy in southern Virginia a few weeks back. He was listening for birds at designated spots in the forest. Said he has been doing this for 30 years and that there are less birds now than 30 years ago.
They are all at my feeders in my backyard. You need the whole story to draw conclusions.
Wayne

[Slo-go'en]

You hear all kinds of birds down south, but the woods are eerily quiet up here in New Hampshire. Your lucky if you hear a few tweets early in the morning. Song birds are pretty much gone. Turkeys are making a come back though. Moose are dying off due to ticks.

[TX Aggie]

I know there's absolutely no endangerment to Canadian geese.....

Or their poop.