View Full Version : Trail Running Shoes for Wet Conditions
spfleisig
06-26-2017, 16:48
I did the Presi Traverse this Saturday and it was very wet. I was wearing Salomon Speed Cross 4 and I slipped off the rocks a million times.
Any recommendations for trail runners that excel on wet rock? And drain relatively well?
QuietStorm
06-26-2017, 19:28
Following because I had the same issue with my Altra Lone Peaks
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Slo-go'en
06-26-2017, 21:05
I don't believe such a thing exists. Good grip/traction on wet granite rock doesn't seem to be a design criteria.
In those conditions, you just have to assume your going to slip and do your best to prevent it. Which means going slow and testing the grip before committing to it. Easier said then done.
MuddyWaters
06-26-2017, 21:14
ditto
There are better and worse rubber compounds in treads
But even if my shoes seem to be gripping great in wet conditions
Im not gonna forge ahead carelessly and expect them too
that would be a good way to get hurt
and algae, moss, etc can be slick, so nothing helps that.
Ie never had a complaint about my inov8 unless tread bald
DownEaster
06-26-2017, 21:38
If you know you're going to be on wet rock, something like these L.L. Bean Rocky Coast Multisport Shoes (https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/91461?page=mens-rocky-coast-ii-multi-sport-mens) would be my best guess at a solution. I've got several pairs of the previous iteration of this design: a mesh top, plus drain holes through the sole.
39741
The Section Hiker has written a lot about trail runners and approach shoes in New England. Search and read.
Wayne
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hikermiker
06-27-2017, 07:15
I have found La Sportiva Ultraraptors to be very good on wet rock but less so on wet roots. I wore them while exploring White Mountain waterfalls and was impressed.
cmoulder
06-27-2017, 07:20
I've done the Presi traverse (overnight!) in foggy, drizzly conditions. When rocks are wet you're going to slip a lot no matter what you're wearing.
Tread pattern will help some but soft rubber is of little use... it does not increase the coefficient of friction where algae, moss and lichen are concerned, and almost all those rocks are covered with one of those. And soft rubber wears out very quickly.
Yes, slow down and concentrate on foot placement. It is all about technique and very little to do with footwear.
nsherry61
06-27-2017, 09:44
I found that a light pack and shoes that you are confident in balancing on the tips and ridges of rocks work best for me. When the White Mountain granite is wet and slippery, being able to walk along and balance on the tips and ridges of the rocks keeps traction from being as much of an issue as when you are trying to control you movement with traction on the flat (stable) surfaces of the rocks that are not level and thus lead to one slipping off. . . for what it's worth, this technique also helps in icy and snowy conditions when you are not otherwise wearing traction devices.
My favorite shoes for AT conditions are the Soloman Mission XR Trail Runners. The tread is more "lug-like" than my other trail runners, and I feel it grips rock better - dry or wet.
Slo-go'en
06-27-2017, 12:59
If you really want a boot which sticks to anything and is bullet proof, get a pair of Limmers with the good old classic Vibrum lug soles. Unfortunately, these boots cost a small fortune and weigh 2.5 pounds each!
Snowleopard
06-27-2017, 13:38
Five Ten is a company originally known for rock climbing shoes. They now make a number of hiking boots and shoes with the same climbing rubber compounds in the soles. I've had their guide tennies and they did have pretty good grip on dry or wet bare rock. The other Five-Ten models are worth checking out. http://www.fiveten.com/us/outdoor As cmoulder says, these sticky rubbers won't help on algae, moss or lichen. They won't help on wet roots or leaves. From the pictures, it doesn't look like their hiking shoes have deeper lugs than the Guide Tenny, but it would be checking.
Overall, the best traction on rock, roots, algae, etc., for me has been my old leather Raichle lugged boots; their rubber stuck to dry or wet rock better than the trail runners I've tried and the lugs helped a lot in other conditions. They may not be as heavy as Limmers but were heavy.
Because of foot problems I've needed shoes wide across the toes: Altra Lone Peaks have mediocre traction, Vivobarefoot are worse than Altra, SOM shoes are a bit better than altra.
http://www.switchbacktravel.com/best-trail-running-shoes
Vibram is a company making several different sole compositions. Vibram is not one type of sole or traction design for wet rock.
I've only very brief experience with 5-10's but I agree with Snow Leopard.
Just Bill
06-27-2017, 15:08
Broadly speaking- if you are frequently on bare rock you want a more minimal tread depth and maximum surface area.
Think like a gecko foot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gecko#/media/File:Gecko_foot_on_glass.JPG
You want small ridges and maximum contact with a little flex. You don't want the fully smooth rubber surface of a climbing shoe on the one extreme. Nor do you want the 40% or so of surface area left with aggressive deep lugs (like a limmer).
Shoes like (some) of the 5.10, sportiva and a few other companies with climbing backgrounds are called approach shoes. Those are typically made from the same rubber as climbing shoes.
http://www.fiveten.com/us/outdoor/approach/approach-pro-black
True approach shoes often have a light edging surface and toe rubber for minor scrambling needs. This shoe has them as well as a polka dot tread patter with very shallow lugs. This would give you a bit better wear but close to full grip. This type of shoe does not do well on wet rock though and really doesn't make a ton of sense for wearing out east. Out west in drier climates these are very grippy shoes and excel. They would be my choice for out west.
So back to the gecko... here's a great example that I have worn for several years.
http://www.merrell.com/US/en/bare-access-4/17570M.html?dwvar_17570M_color=J36791#cgid=mens-trail-running&srule=top-sellers&start=1
This particular version (4) is a bit more lugged up than previous versions actually. This is a nice example too- http://www.merrell.com/US/en/vapor-glove-2/17572M.html?dwvar_17572M_color=J03911#cgid=men-featured-best-sellers&srule=top-sellers&start=1
Both shoes are a good grippy outsole, with a very soft eva midsole, relatively minimalist without being too wispy. They have smaller gecko style tread patterns (low depth, high surface area, with some flex).
As multiple people mentioned- at some point open wet granite in that climate will have plant life or highly polished surfaces... which means you're kinda screwed.
I think one reason some folks swear by their old boots is that typically you walk slowly and deliberately. You don't see trail running folks strapping on lugged boots because they grab like no-other. But you do see a Limmer lugger stepping purposefully and carefully which would help in any shoe.
If you are looking for the best case scenario in what is arguably about the worst case traction scenario (The dead leaf over clay slick over rock down south is close) and you still have plans to keep moving forward at a reasonable pace-
1- Look for the gecko style patterns in a shoe you are comfortable with. The harder/sticky outsole with a soft (and partially exposed) midsole like the merrel access line. (more aggressive lugs might fly for Killian- but you ain't Killian).
2- A minimalist shoe... you will slip. There is no magic bullet. So having a minimal shoe with maximum proprioception will increase your chances of reacting well when things go wrong. It will also increase your odds of placing the foot well to start.
3- A shoe you feel confident in... but only after you've adjusted your style a bit. If your weight is committed before your foot falls then you will fall too.
4- Flexibility the more the shoe flexes and twists... the more it can deform to the surface you're seeking traction and increase contact area.
One challenge out east in that area though is that you may be in and out of that type of terrain too often so there will likely be some kind of compromise in performance. These shoes will not rip through mud during the portions of your hike between shoulders or well below treeline when you are in the gaps. So depending on your routes... you may want to pick the shoe the more aggressively lugged trail shoe and simply slow it down on the slick granite if you're not planning on staying up high full time. Having only been through on the AT... I suppose the presi traverse would probably qualify as a route that you would be up high full time so if you may be able to commit more fully to that shoe for that.
I don't like them.. I think they are too hard of an outsole... but some people like the trail glove. But I point them out because if you are in a store and can compare the trail glove to the access style outsole- you'll find the trail glove has an almost "hard shell" type outer to act as a rock plate where the access line is softer. http://www.merrell.com/US/en/trail-glove-4/29191M.html?dwvar_29191M_color=J09671#cgid=men-footwear-fitness&srule=top-sellers&start=1
If you get a lot of bruising from rocks in a minimalist shoe then this type of outsole may serve you better... but I feel the inflexibility is the enemy of traction.
For what it's worth- the older Torin had a pretty good grip up there. I liked the Torin for most of the AT and the lone peak for smokies and main Junction North.
https://www.altrarunning.com/men/torin-25
Don't be afraid to look at road shoes in general either. They often have a light lug pattern or good grip. Some of the trail shoes have gotten pretty extreme lately and are looking more like cleats. So if you're a fan of an extreme shoe, maybe check out the road version of that shoe... you might be surprised... especially on a pretty well maintained trail.
Just Bill
06-27-2017, 15:14
http://www.salomon.com/us/product/speedcross-4.html?article=381154&CMPID=bing|search-b|performance|nam|us|salomon%20speedcross|e|147843 86326|c
Example of a soccer cleat, lol. Seriously though- how much surface area on a forefoot strike do you really think is in contact with the bare rock?
On the flipside... not being super familiar with Soloman... here is a road shoe version-
http://www.salomon.com/us/product/s-lab-sonic-2.html?article=391756
Pretty aggressive tread for a road shoe... but perhaps an ideal mountain shoe as a result. This is basically what "trail runners" used to look like.
http://www.salomon.com/us/product/sonic-aero.html?article=393495
This might be a nice one with this multi tread... having that nice gecko tread under your big toe/ball of foot is great for smearing and gripping when stepping up or for edging when stepping down.
Just Bill
06-27-2017, 15:20
http://topoathletic.com/mens-hydroventure?color=34
Topo shoes in general are interesting as well... supposed to be the forefoot/midfoot of an Altra and the heel cup of a Merrell.
So for those who tried an Altra and hated the heel or back of the foot sloppiness... might be worth checking out. The looked well made at my local running shoe store; but my size wasn't in.
I'd order some.. but not much use for them on the sewing machine, lol.
spfleisig
06-27-2017, 17:41
I have worn Salomon XA Pro 3D for years and just this year got the Speed Cross which is the first Solly shoe you brought up! It's heavily lugged.
Always find something useful and amusing in yar posts JB.
I also think a lot has to be said about more deliberate technique consideration under such conditions. I also like a wider based sole for greater contact under wet slick rock conditions.
I actually picked up a pair of the TOPO terradventures from REI yesterday and will get them out on the trail next week. I've been using the ALTRA Lone Peaks and I really love they way they feel but have been having a lot of quality problems with them. (The rubber around the toe and front edge keeps peeling back off of the the shoe and it gets debris lodged in there. I've had 2 pairs now and they both had the same problem after just a few miles .) I've had some regular trail runners independently tell me that the TOPOs and much better quality and the fit in the toe box seems to be very similar. The heel seem like it has a bit more structure on the TOPOs. I'll have better information after my hike next week :)
spfleisig
06-30-2017, 08:40
http://www.salomon.com/us/product/speedcross-4.html?article=381154&CMPID=bing|search-b|performance|nam|us|salomon%20speedcross|e|147843 86326|c
Example of a soccer cleat, lol. Seriously though- how much surface area on a forefoot strike do you really think is in contact with the bare rock?
On the flipside... not being super familiar with Soloman... here is a road shoe version-
http://www.salomon.com/us/product/s-lab-sonic-2.html?article=391756
Pretty aggressive tread for a road shoe... but perhaps an ideal mountain shoe as a result. This is basically what "trail runners" used to look like.
http://www.salomon.com/us/product/sonic-aero.html?article=393495
This might be a nice one with this multi tread... having that nice gecko tread under your big toe/ball of foot is great for smearing and gripping when stepping up or for edging when stepping down.
I appreciate the commentary. I've never thought about it before, but it would seem obvious that if you want better traction while hiking or running on trails, you'd want as large a contact patch as possible. But I'm just speculating...I wonder what an actual shoe designer would say?
The Merrell's and Salomon's you've highlighted would look to have a larger contact patch than the Salomon Speed Cross 4 I used in the Presi Traverse. However, it would seem your feet would get really trashed because of the lack of protection under foot with a more minimalist/more road shoe type of footwear. I guess the ideal shoe for me is something with a lot of protection but not really lugged. I used the Salomon XA Pro 3D for years.
Broadly speaking- if you are frequently on bare rock you want a more minimal tread depth and maximum surface area.
Think like a gecko foot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gecko#/media/File:Gecko_foot_on_glass.JPG
You want small ridges and maximum contact with a little flex. You don't want the fully smooth rubber surface of a climbing shoe on the one extreme. Nor do you want the 40% or so of surface area left with aggressive deep lugs (like a limmer).
Both shoes are a good grippy outsole, with a very soft eva midsole, relatively minimalist without being too wispy. They have smaller gecko style tread patterns (low depth, high surface area, with some flex).
As multiple people mentioned- at some point open wet granite in that climate will have plant life or highly polished surfaces... which means you're kinda screwed.
I think one reason some folks swear by their old boots is that typically you walk slowly and deliberately. You don't see trail running folks strapping on lugged boots because they grab like no-other. But you do see a Limmer lugger stepping purposefully and carefully which would help with any shoe.
4- Flexibility the more the shoe flexes and twists... the more it can deform to the surface you're seeking traction and increase contact area.
If you get a lot of bruising from rocks in a minimalist shoe then this type of outsole may serve you better... but I feel the inflexibility is the enemy of traction.
Don't be afraid to look at road shoes in general either. They often have a light lug pattern or good grip. Some of the trail shoes have gotten pretty extreme lately and are looking more like cleats. So if you're a fan of an extreme shoe, maybe check out the road version of that shoe... you might be surprised... especially on a pretty well maintained trail.
I also think a lot has to be said about more deliberate technique consideration under such conditions. I also like a wider based sole for greater contact under wet slick rock conditions.
I appreciate the commentary. I've never thought about it before, but it would seem obvious that if you want better traction while hiking or running on trails, you'd want as large a contact patch as possible. But I'm just speculating...I wonder what an actual shoe designer would say?...
Doing traverses and ridgelines is one of the most enjoyable hiking and backpacking scenarios for me. I'm usually backpacking with a UL load with the traverse part of a longer trek though so I'm experiencing more mixed conditions. Picking appropriate shoes for these scenarios is harder as I have to go with what generally works for the entire trek.
A lot can be said about shoes. The type that I wear depends on the quality of the rock and other conditions. I usually do some research on what to expect on the conditions on sites like summit post or elsewhere. Last thing I want is an injury on a traverse although something like the Presi Traverse I expect nearby assistance if need be.
Problem with super soft or very flexible shoes like SOME approach or climbing shoes is that those wearing such shoes aren't usually backpacking or experiencing mixed conditions as a backpacker or attempting the degree of miles as a backpacker might. This can injure feet. Although I don't use them I've seen those accustomed to such greater feel "shoes" successfully doing traverses wearing Vibram Five Fingers or even Body Glove swimming, surfing, paddling shoes or as JB said Merrel Body Glove minimalist type shoes. From my perspective that's risky on many traverses backpacking for myself.
Reading the rock and adjusting technique is essential more essential IMO, and as Cmoulder said, than my shoes and I'm a outdoor shoe fanatic. I tend to look at traverse technique on the Presi as if I'm crossing a stream. I look before I leap. I figure out my path first. I used to slip and fall at stream crossings much more attempting to rock hop because I had a tip toe don't get my feet wet attitude. This was bad technique. I wasn't getting max traction no matter my shoe type because my contact area was small. Now I can access more rock types more readily so I typically can go faster. What rocks are most stable. What rocks have the best angle for foot placement. What rocks offer the most traction. What rocks are like ice. What rocks pose greater issues. When wet or icy it almost always means slowing down. Don't assume all vegetation like moss or algae on rocks make for more slippery conditions. Some moss/algae/etc, depending on the genus actually is tightly bonded to the rock offering greater traction! Some types of dirt even in wet conditions can offer greater traction. It doesn't hurt to stomp grit, debris, mud, etc from shoes regularly as a clay court tennis player does smacking his racket on the side of his shoes. FWIW though some(most) stream crossings are best approached as fords rather than rock hopping. Fords are a little like wet rocky ridgeline traverses.
Have you researched shoes that have elements of an approach shoe but aren't true approach shoes yet are capable for light backpacking or done in a day wet rocky traverses like the Treksta Libero or true approach shoes capable of crossing over to the same conditions like some of the LaSportiva Approach shoe designs?