About the recent hiker & dog pics on Baxter Peak:

[TJ aka Teej]

I want to clear something up regarding recent (late June 2017) social media posts and photos of a hiker and her dog on Baxter Peak.
Only service dogs are allowed in the Park, There is no "interview process," no "applying", no "special exception," no "legitimate reason."
Either the dog is a service animal, or not. Pets are not allowed.

[rickb]

Wanderwoman_superpup on Instagram?

Not sure how the rangers could have missed her.

She a thru hiker?

[Another Kevin]

I want to clear something up regarding recent (late June 2017) social media posts and photos of a hiker and her dog on Baxter Peak.
Only service dogs are allowed in the Park, There is no "interview process," no "applying", no "special exception," no "legitimate reason."
Either the dog is a service animal, or not. Pets are not allowed.

And under the current state of the law, there's no way that a service animal is qualified or credentialed. Officials cannot demand the papers for a service animal, but by the same token patients have no papers to present for the animal. This avoids obvious potential abuses where people with invisible disabilities are stigmatized, but also opens the door to cases where people present pets as service animals.

There are no really good answers. We don't want to make those who are genuinely disabled continually have to prove their 'deserving' status, and we don't want to allow fraudulent service animals. The 'in between' solutions simply open the door to abuse from both ends of the spectrum.

My understanding of the current state of affairs is that officials MAY ask:

Is this a service animal?
What services is the animal trained to perform?

They may NOT ask:

For any sort of special identification for the animal.
For information about the handler's specific disability.

They may NOT:

Charge additional fees for the presence of the animal.
Refuse admittance to the handler.
Segregate, isolate, or treat the handler less favourably than other patrons.

They may NOT demand to remove the animal unless:

the animal is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it., or
the animal poses a direct threat to the health and safety of others.


These Federal rules override local health and safety codes for food service establishments - a restaurant cannot exclude a patron based on a local health code that bans animals.

Discrimination against the disabled is at least as big a problem as service animal fraud, and as I said, there are no good answers that don't involve harassment or active discrimination against disabled persons.

[rickb]

I believe superpup is a certified support animal.


39750

[BobTheBuilder]

I don't know this young woman or her dog, and I am not questioning the validity of her service dog in any way.

However, since most people who clicked on this post have some interest in the matter, I would like to take this opportunity to note that it takes about two years of intensive training to develop a service dog, and many are now being effectively used as support animals for returning military members suffering from TBI or PTSD. There is a bill in congress right now to secure additional funding to train service dogs for veterans. It's a big deal, and these dogs are working miracles.

At the same time, the number of people who buy fake service dog paperwork online is skyrocketing, and every dog who is misrepresented as a service dog creates huge trust and acceptance problems for the dogs that are truly trained for the purpose.

The point of all of this is simple - if you're a future thru hiker reading this who thinks they have found a clever way to bring your dog on a hike and force restaurants, national parks, and grocery stores to let you bring your dog in, PLEASE do not misrepresent your dog as something it is not. It is an insult to all of the people who spend their lives training these dogs, and to all of the worthy veterans who need them.

[BobTheBuilder]

This link discusses the bill I mentioned above and has a cute puppy training to be a service dog:

http://www.wusa9.com/life/animals/service-dog/tracking-the-paws-act-how-a-bill-becomes-law/452546965

[Shae]

I want to clear something up regarding recent (late June 2017) social media posts and photos of a hiker and her dog on Baxter Peak.
Only service dogs are allowed in the Park, There is no "interview process," no "applying", no "special exception," no "legitimate reason."
Either the dog is a service animal, or not. Pets are not allowed.

Her name is Alton Dadekian. A friend of a friend of my daughter. On her website she claims that the dog is a "certified therapy and emotional support animal". http://wanderwomansuperpup.com/ On her facebook page https://www.facebook.com/alton.eckel with the Baxter Peak photo a couple of people asked how they let her dog in. She answered " Tenacity and a legitimate reason" It seems many of her posts are kind of "gimmicky" with her and the dog dressed up in some rather unique outfits. A lot of nice photography but .... I have to admit that I've wondered what her story is for awhile now.

[tdoczi]

my unsolicited 2 cents- "emotional support dog" basically is so open ended it makes basically every dog on the planet (that is specifically trained to do something else, like bomb sniffing or something) an emotional support animal. i own a dog. he isnt trained to perform any specific task, he has no skill. why do i have him then? for companionship, amusement, enjoyment.... these things are emotional support.

if youre going to allow that dogs who provide emotional support are service animals and therefore allowed special privilege, well, then just make it that dogs have to be allowed anywhere there owner deems it necessary to take them and get on with it.

[tdoczi]

correction- that is NOT specifically trained...

[TJ aka Teej]

No 'interview process', no 'tenacity', no 'applying' for 'special exception,' needed for service dogs to enter Baxter.
Service dogs are allowed. Pets are not.

[Sandy of PA]

And in 2014 "Mayor" brought his pet into Baxter for his summit and brags about it in his book and on Youtube. It is people like this that need to be schooled, and fined.

[tdoczi]

And in 2014 "Mayor" brought his pet into Baxter for his summit and brags about it in his book and on Youtube. It is people like this that need to be schooled, and fined.

i suppose this idea isnt limited to thru hikers at all, but the sot of thing you describe, is in my experience, common amongst them. they will willfully violate the rules and then flout it. its because in their heads the rules either shouldnt exist at all or shouldnt apply to them.

a thru at a shelter a couple years ago in maine was pontificating at length about how he was having a drink on top of katahdin no matter what because you see this is HIS hike, not theirs and therefore they have no business telling him what he cant do.

true story.

[rickb]

No 'interview process', no 'tenacity', no 'applying' for 'special exception,' needed for service dogs to enter Baxter.
Service dogs are allowed. Pets are not.

Is a Support Dog the same as a Service Dog, in the eyes of BSP policy?

My other question is whether or not BSP would allow a certified therapy and emotional support dog if the dog was being accompanied by its handler -- like a trained therapist -- rather than an individual it was assigned to comfort.

[TJ aka Teej]

And in 2014 "Mayor" brought his pet into Baxter for his summit and brags about it in his book and on Youtube. It is people like this that need to be schooled, and fined.
The thing about Mayor is he admits sneaking his dog in, and didn't care at all if his action harmed wildlife or the future of ATers in Baxter. No one could confuse his actions with getting some kind of special permission.

The thing about the recent postings is people are being confused. I've been contacted by several hikers, mostly asking how to get the same special exception, one calling my published info wrong, and one claiming I was shilling for the overpriced ripoff kennels in Millinocket. I can only imagine the calls BSPHQ is getting.

Just to be clear: Service dogs are allowed. Pets are not. There is no special exception pet owners can apply for.

[KDogg]

There are many people that are using emotional support animals to circumvent legitimate laws protecting the rights of disabled persons. There are many 'organizations' online that only require a short questionnaire and a fee to get issued a 'permit'. The whole reason this scam works is that, as stated above, you aren't permitted to ask a person with an 'ESA' animal relevant questions about the animal or themselves and no proof of any of this required. I don't know the person mentioned in the article but there certainly is a lot of tiptoeing around this issue and I have no doubt that most of the ESA animals out there are completely illegitimate. This needs to be addressed by federal, state and local governments. ESA animals are not service animals and require no special training. Does this seem right to everybody? I'm not saying that there isn't a need out there but, as of now, there is no rules governing ESA which essentially means that you can take your pet with you anywhere you want to go and you must be accommodated.

[Slo-go'en]

I call BS on this.

[Pringles]

I have no problem with service animals, but, I have asthma and an allergy to dogs. Your service animal (dog) can trigger my asthma, and then I can't breathe. Can't. Breathe. Not "I sniffle a little." Can't breathe. If you have a problem that is solved by a service animal, I understand and will do my best to put some distance between us, and I hope you'll understand and help. I have had experiences with a few folks with service animals (and I don't think these really were) that see this as an opportunity to take their pet anywhere. The heck with other people.

[HooKooDooKu]

Notice that "Another Kevin" indicated that one of the questions officials are allowed to ask is "what SERVICE does the animal provide".

Based on topics where this subject has been discussed before, under the rules of the ADA, an emotional support animal is NOT a service animal.

[Feral Bill]

I just retired from a position working with people with disabilities. For the record, emotional support animals ARE NOT service animals. There are rules that allow people with emotional support animals limited privileges, but not close to what legitimate services animals get. The rules also vary depending on which federal department has jurisdiction. People with real service animals, not surprisingly, loathe the numerous cheaters. Please understand, though, that many disabilities are not obvious, and the need for service animals is very real for many people. This is a tough issue that will only be settled by a comprehensive certification program with penalties for cheaters. Okay, off the soapbox.

[DownEaster]

For the record, emotional support animals ARE NOT service animals.
The animals may be treated the same, though. If the hiker produces a letter from a licensed mental health professional that prescribes the need for the animal when asked for it, an establishment (including a state park like Baxter) must accommodate the emotional support animal. Unlike with service animals, paperwork is required. For some forms of PTSD (rape survivors, for instance) this may be a faster and cheaper solution than getting a trained service dog.

[capehiker]

It seems many of her posts are kind of "gimmicky" with her and the dog dressed up in some rather unique outfits. A lot of nice photography but .... I have to admit that I've wondered what her story is for awhile now.

Im glad I'm not the only one who thought so. She's branding herself to be this saccharine sweet outdoors girl with a perfect life. From poking around, it appears to me the dog is a trained therapy dog but not necessarily her therapy dog.

[gracebowen]

I have to chime in here. There are valid reasons to have an emotional support animal. An emotional support animal can be anything a dog a cat a a parrot a pig etc.

I know someone who has an esa sun conure. The Conure they love is their whole reason for being a functioning human.

I am not advocating abusing the privelidge or breaking the rules. I think doing that is horrible.

Just plrase dont let those who abuse the privelidge sour you on thide who truly have and need an esa.

[gracebowen]

Please and those lol. Stupid typos.

[tdoczi]

Please and those lol. Stupid typos.

i dont doubt it, but look at the quandry it creates.

basically anyone who claims they need to bring their animal with them somewhere for some reason, you have to allow them to and not question why they feel it is necessary.

it is, in a de facto way, a system in which an animal is allowed to go anywhere it's owner deems is necessary. if we feel the good of not depriving those who need them of their emotional support animals, well then the unavoidable abuse is the price we pay for it.

on the other hand, we can decide that the ramifications of allowing this are not worth it and that the handful of people who truly need it are going to have to deal with it for the good of all the other people and places who would be impacted.

the notion that somehow we are only going to have those with truly legit need make use of the leniency afforded ESAs and that abuse will not be rampant is fantasy land stuff.

itd be more to the point and straightforward and honest to say this- "please do not bring your pet here as it will negatively impact the place and the other people here to enjoy it." while conceding that pets are, in fact, allowed.

that is in essence what is in place now. we have an unenforceable "rule" prohibiting something, but its nothing but an honor system. we are, in effect, requesting that people not bring their pets and trusting them to not do so, while totally helpless to prevent them. i suppose we're hoping not many people get wise to this, but that wont last long.

[Click]

I've trained 3 SD for my wife who had MD. You'd never find her on uneven ground.
While we were active with the SD we never had a problem in Illinois/Iowa. We carried plenty of federal and state laws with us, but with the obvious harness on "Shadow" and my wife's gait no questions were needed.

With those without an 'obvious' problem, the honor system does work pretty well. The demeanor of the dog often lets you know the truth.

[tdoczi]

I've trained 3 SD for my wife who had MD. You'd never find her on uneven ground.
While we were active with the SD we never had a problem in Illinois/Iowa. We carried plenty of federal and state laws with us, but with the obvious harness on "Shadow" and my wife's gait no questions were needed.

With those without an 'obvious' problem, the honor system does work pretty well. The demeanor of the dog often lets you know the truth.

the demeanor of the dog is ultimately irrelevant though, isnt it? it could be acting like a maniac and not even housebroken, if the owner claims its a service or support dog, no one may question it.

[Feral Bill]

the demeanor of the dog is ultimately irrelevant though, isnt it? it could be acting like a maniac and not even housebroken, if the owner claims its a service or support dog, no one may question it. The bus system here has a monthly list, with photos, of individual banned form the system. It includes people and dogs. "Service" animals lose service all the time, and may be put off the bus for good cause by the drivers. The behavior, (usually aggression) is cause for denial of service. And for the record, service dogs are pretty easily identified by their serious, often boring behavior, even if the nature of their service is not obvious.

[tdoczi]

The bus system here has a monthly list, with photos, of individual banned form the system. It includes people and dogs. "Service" animals lose service all the time, and may be put off the bus for good cause by the drivers. The behavior, (usually aggression) is cause for denial of service. And for the record, service dogs are pretty easily identified by their serious, often boring behavior, even if the nature of their service is not obvious.
i'm glad to hear it, but i still have to wonder just how wide spread, short of obvious aggression, the banning of service dogs or "service" dogs really is.

it seems like a large can of worms that most people these days will do anything to avoid opening.

[BuckeyeBill]

I've trained 3 SD for my wife who had MD. You'd never find her on uneven ground.
While we were active with the SD we never had a problem in Illinois/Iowa. We carried plenty of federal and state laws with us, but with the obvious harness on "Shadow" and my wife's gait no questions were needed.

With those without an 'obvious' problem, the honor system does work pretty well. The demeanor of the dog often lets you know the truth.

I am glad that you found help and a companion for your wife in a service animal. You are right, demeanor of the dog speaks the truth more than a certificate any day. I have trained every one of my dogs since I was in high school. They knew to behave around strangers and to react only when a person showed aggression towards me, the wife or my children. I have also trained a few that went to the local library and laid next to a child, while the child read to them. This program was developed to help those kids that were shy about reading in public.

If a dog is aggressive for no reason, tries to get food from you or is totally out of control, don't blame the animal. Blame the owner for failing to take the time with the dog to train them. A dog will only act the way the owner allows it.

I agree that service animals are in a special class all their own. There will always be people who try to pass off their animal as a SA just to get him into places were they would be banned otherwise. If you watch a dog that has been trained, it will always be looking at its owner. They only want to please their owner. A dog can tell when something is wrong with its owner, some times quicker that another human can.

Emotional Support Animals are becoming more popular these days as a vets return from combat. Sometimes a vet just wants to talk without having any comments from another human being. Their ESA will just sit and listen to them all day if that's what it takes. They won't judge them and won't tell anyone if their owner cries. They are just there.

[soilman]

I don't think she is a thru hiker unless she just started her SOBO. As stated on her website the dog is a certified therapy and emotional support animal. She is a licensed mental health clinician. Connecting the dots, my guess is she uses the dog for her profession. Doubt she needed the dog for emotional support climbing Kathadin. As an historical note, at least one exception has been made for allowing a dog in BSP. Back in 1964 Chuck Ebersole was able to convince park superintendent Helon Taylor to allow his beagle Snuffy in the park and to climb Katahdin.

[Venchka]

Baxter is NOT a state park as many have said here before. I just read the statement at the Baxter web page. No connection to the Maine State Park system.
In the grand scheme of things I have no idea what that means in the service dog world.
Wayne


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DownEaster]

Baxter is NOT a state park as many have said here before. ...
In the grand scheme of things I have no idea what that means in the service dog world.
Makes no difference under the letter of the federal law. Excerpted from here (https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm):

... nonprofit organizations that serve the public generally must allow service animals to accompany people with disabilities in all areas of the facility where the public is normally allowed to go.
They can disallow access to service dogs when they disallow access to the public.

[Click]

it could be acting like a maniac and not even housebroken, if the owner claims its a service or support dog, no one may question it.No!
An ill-mannered dog is considered a threat to the public. If the owner has no or little control over the 'tyrant' any public place has the right to tell the owner to GET OUT!!

[SawnieRobertson]

I believe superpup is a certified support animal.


39750
Echoing Rick B's information regarding service animals, he is right. There is no legitimate certification; however, because there is so much suspicion, I do carry my prescriptions from 3 different MDs. Still, no one has a right to ask for my medical records, which the scripts are. Push further, and I (as well as others) will take legal action against the jerk (or jerkette). No quarter.

[SawnieRobertson]

My service dog, Fleur, died with little warning August 12, 2015. To replace her through an SD training facility was/is beyond my financial capability. I had trained Fleur myself for that reason as well as the almost impossible task of training a dog (could be a mini horse) to help prevent or assuage a psychiatric problem (panic disorder) for another person. Fleur did great, attending lectures, concerts, plays, dinners at restaurants, visiting homes, buying groceries, sitting at my feet on airlines,listening at church, etc. HOWEVER, had she not behaved properly, I would have been expected quietly to persuade her to behave. If that did not work, then I would be required to remove her from that scene. THEN, if she had settled down, we could both return. That is the law, and it is a good one. In your mind, think of a young child in that situation. To further attempt to put a light on this subject, only California and Colorado have a law granting Service Dog in Training privilege under the theory that the dog needs to have real experiences to back up their training. Most dogs learn that way more quickly. I am now eagerly awaiting my new dog's birthday in 4 months when she will have gained the maturity of being that magic age of 2 years old. In choosing her at 9 weeks old, I was grateful for the wisdom of her breeder who herself must have a psychiatric animal. When you encounter us somewhere, please do us the favor of not seeking her eye contact or in any other way distracting her. Even though I have no wheelchair (yet) nor a white cane, she is working. Just talk to me. We can even converse about her and the program and whether or how you can get a service dog for your grandchild. Just don't direct your speech towards her. Thanks.

[Dogwood]

Sounds like gimmicky BS to impose one's desires on others.

There NEEDS to be a certification or ability to qualify these animals as it's getting ridiculous.

Oh, I'm not breaking any rules. I know the AT is a non motorized walking path but this motorized bicycle is here for emotional support Ranger. Do I have any papers to qualify my bike? No But I don't have to prove or verify anything about my bike. Don't discriminate.


Ahh, the discrimination defense.

[BuckeyeBill]

I am not familiar with the training of service dog, but Sawnie it appears that you have a system down pat. I have seen a few service animals that assist with getting things and opening certain doors etc. Of course there is always the seeing eye dogs that most people are familiar with. Good luck to you.

[LoneStranger]

https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

[kjudim]

My husband has a PTSD service dog. We are debating whether or not she will come with us on our thru hike. She will be kenneled for BSP.

There is a lot of misinformation about service dogs and emotional support dogs out there. You are all correct that ESA's do not have federal protection except for housing issues. A trained SD (or in- training dog in a few states, including Texas) can be removed if they are disruptive, and can't be calmed, for aggressive behavior, or if the dog is not housebroken.

I have many opinions about certification that I will keep to myself. I will say, our dog has never been questioned or asked to leave. Generally, you can tell a real SD by behavior.

Sent from my HTCD200LVWPP using Tapatalk

[Alligator]

I have only just looked at this thread and don't know all the circumstances. For federal law, you have to have a disability, I think the relevant section is in the ADA. If you don't have a disability or you do and you don't have a trained service dog please don't screw up the rights of other disabled individuals by fraudulently bringing in a non-service dog. Show some class and don't break the law.

Now, the state of Maine has its own set of laws (http://www.maine.gov/ag/about/service_animal_policy.html) which appear to "possibly" be less restrictive than the federal law. From another website, I am reading that under federal law, a trainee dog is not classified as a service dog until it finishes its training. Therefore, a trainee dog does not have any service dog privileges. However, Maine does seem to allow a trainee dog with an especially trained service dog trainer to have the same rights as a person with a disability who has a service dog. Also, the Maine system for qualifying the disability is perhaps easier to be classified as disabled. I am not sure there.

Again I don't know what interaction or words were said between the hiker and BSP nor whether the hiker is an especially trained service dog trainer. Just pointing out a situation where the state law appears more lenient in this case.

[Alligator]

If you fraudulently claim your dog is a service dog and sneak it into BSP, you are also screwing things up for all hikers, not just those with a disability.

[BuckeyeBill]

^^^this............