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soumodeler
07-04-2017, 16:10
One of my goals for this coming winter is to start backpacking in cold weather, which I would personally define as no lower than 0 for now. I have not slept in weather lower than probably 20-25 degrees (at least backpacking, car camping doesn't count) as I simply do not have the proper gear to do so, especially in the sleeping department. I ended up going out earlier this year immediately after a pretty good snowstorm on the NOC to Fontana section and had a blast hiking in the snow that was left, but I would have been miserable in the actual storm. I could tell which of the thru hikers were prepared for it as they were the ones saying how fun it was, while the majority were pretty much miserable.

What I do have:

Sleeping gear I have a Thermarest ProLite Plus, a ZLite closed cell foam, and a NeoAir XLite. I think I can make do with combining the ProLite and ZLite for a R6 pad system (does it work that way, simply adding R values?) until I can buy an XTherm, but I have higher priorities, namely a sleeping bag. For that I have a REI Igneo (2014 version) rated for 19*, but for me it is more like 30* comfort. I may could stretch it lower by using the 2 pads, but I felt cold on top too the last time I used it in 25* weather. I would like to buy a Western Mountaineering bag, but I don't know which one to get. How true to comfort are their ratings? Should I get the 5* Antelope or -10* Lynx?

For tents I have a ZPacks Duplex and a TarpTent Notch with the mesh interior, plus a REI Passage 2 tent which is basically a car camping tent. I feel like the Duplex is probably too cold since it is very open. I can get a solid inner for the Notch to make it warmer, and TT says it can hold a "moderate snow load" if necessary. I don't feel like I would need more than the Notch, maybe get the solid inner tent for now? I am not planning on going out in anything more than a light snow to start with, if that.

As far as clothing goes, the only thing I really have that is truly for colder weather is a Montbell Alpine Light Down Parka. I would need to upgrade most everything else or carry more of what I do have. Can anyone post a gear list that they use for 0* weather? I am also looking for a breakdown of what people wear while hiking in those temps.

Overall, what I am looking to be able to do is comfortably go out for weekend trips anywhere south of VA down to about 0, even in snow. So I would have a pretty good idea of weather and a fairly short trip. I get cold pretty easily, so I need to get gear that will work well at keeping me warm. I need to get the big items figured out first like sleeping and clothes, and then I will work on the rest like stove and misc items.

Looking forward to colder weather!

Tipi Walter
07-04-2017, 16:53
Good post. 0F temps are not too common in the Southeast unless you like to spend all your time above 5,000 feet. Big difference in temps from 800 ft and 5,000+.

Regarding the sleeping bag---it's the most important piece of winter gear and I recommend the WM Lynx (I have the beefier Puma) because my backpacking buddy Patman has the same bag and uses it for all his winter trips.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2016-Trips-171/17-Days-in-the-Snow/i-kGDbcLJ/0/dbce168d/XL/TRIP%20172%20141-XL.jpg
Here's Patman on the Rocky Flats trail in the morning at 8F with his Lynx bag.

I'd avoid a single wall tent for camping in the winter in the Southeast. Think tremendous condensation. Even tarps get condensation bad at times---great if you like getting your inside stuff wet on occasion.

TIP
If you're serious about winter backpacking, I'd start sleeping outside every night in your backyard or porch or deck and get supremely used to living on a sleeping pad---Do this most esp during Nov/Dec etc.

Clothing for 0F hiking and camping is purely personal and subjective. But I'm a big fan of bringing down pants and a beefy down parka for those tough nights at -10F. My winter set up is as follows---

** Icebreaker 260 wt merino leggings under my hiking shorts for 85% of all hiking in the cold. Supplemented with my OR Foray rainpants over the leggings when it's really cold. Bare legs in shorts the rest of the time.

** Silk long sleeve baselayer top under my Patagonia capilene sandwiched midweight/thermal weight tops (with hoody). Excellent for hiking with zipneck ventilation and hood adjustment. (over a turtle fur fleece hat). Carry a balaclava too if it's subzero---with the turtle fur---esp for sleeping).

** Rain jacket over the capilene if really cold---or add a heavyweight fleece jacket. I use an Arcteryx polartec 300 jacket. Over all of this goes my Icefall down parka---never worn hiking and only in camp.

** Two pairs of gloves/mittens always. MLD eVent rain shell mitts also to keep your gloves dry in sleet storms and when packing up a wet tent. A down mitten is great too in severe cold.

** Two pairs of merino socks always---One always for hiking (wet or not) and one always kept dry for sleeping.

The main challenge in winter hiking is to get minimal clothing wet no matter what, either to sweat or the weather. For this therefore a good rain shell is vital. It keeps in the heat whereby you can wear minimal top layers underneath. These baselayers are allowed to get wet---poly t-shirt over the silk baselayer---sweat all your want because in camp you'll ditch these (with the rain jacket) and get into your capilene and fleece.

In a cold rain you can't let your leggings get wet either (you sleep in them) so you either wear shorts alone or your rainpants without leggings. In severe cold you only have to keep your stuff dry from sweat and not from rain or sleet---at 0F anything that falls from the sky is a dry powder---so wear as much as you dare.

BUT have the discipline to stop and delayer before sweat soaks your all-important midlayers.

DownEaster
07-04-2017, 17:58
Clothing for 0F hiking and camping is purely personal and subjective. But I'm a big fan of bringing down pants and a beefy down parka for those tough nights at -10F.
This is only mostly true. The part that's not subjective is loft (i.e., trapped air which insulates you). If your sleeping bag doesn't have enough room to accommodate you and your down clothing, it will compress your down and reduce your loft; you'll end up colder than if you wore less bulky clothing. Keep that in mind when shopping for a winter sleeping bag.

martinb
07-04-2017, 18:58
As Walter mentioned. Good idea to acclimate yourself to cooler and cooler temps. I've spent quite a few nights out in the high 20s to low 30s but my coldest night, a 15 degree affair, was a different beast. I wouldn't worry about what tent is going to keep you warmer but which one will keep spindrift out. If there is snow on the ground you can pack it around the bottom of the fly to help keep spindrift out and provide a little insulation. Oh and get a good balaclava, too.

Tipi Walter
07-04-2017, 20:18
This is only mostly true. The part that's not subjective is loft (i.e., trapped air which insulates you). If your sleeping bag doesn't have enough room to accommodate you and your down clothing, it will compress your down and reduce your loft; you'll end up colder than if you wore less bulky clothing. Keep that in mind when shopping for a winter sleeping bag.

No one ever mentioned zipping up your down bag while wearing your down parka/pants. The purpose of the down clothing is to provide "a sleeping bag with arms and legs" when in camp but never used inside a zipped up bag.

You bring up this point: Always get an overkill down bag for the winter. If you expect 0F, get a -15F bag. Use it like an open quilt on most nights, have the ability to zip up and mummify on subzero nights. And with the right bag all you'll need for sleeping is minimal layers and never as mentioned your in-camp down layers or any bulky stuff.

Venchka
07-04-2017, 20:21
Are WM bags true to their rating? Yes they are.
The question is, "Are you true to the bags rating?"
I own an Antelope and an Alpinlite. I've been comfortable in both below their ratings with appropriate ground insulation and sleeping clothes. I did not resort to a "down puffy". I was in proper solid wall tents.
There are people at WhiteBlaze who claim to own 0 degree bags and freeze in them at 32 degrees. If that is you, buy accordingly.
Have fun!
Wayne


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LIhikers
07-04-2017, 21:40
For sleeping I have one word of advice and it's Western Mountaineering Puma.
I usually just sleep in light weight under wear, with an R5 value sleeping pad under me.

Slo-go'en
07-04-2017, 22:43
If your flexible enough in timing your trips and/or location to avoid the worst of the winter temps and weather, you can compromise a bit on your sleeping gear. If your locked into three day holiday weekends or going for an extended period of time, say over a week, then you need to gear up with more of an eye to possible extremes in the weather.

But in any event, it's easy to stay warm while hiking. The trick is resist the temptation to overdress, especially in the morning. Once you start to sweat, and it won't take long, things you want to stay dry start to get wet. Having to stop to do a wardrobe change is a pain, but usually inevitable.

Staying warm in camp what you need to plan for. Due to the short days, you have a lot of down time to sit or lay around doing mostly nothing. A campfire can help with boredom, but be careful if wearing a down puffy jacket as those little sparks from the fire will make little holes in the jacket for the feathers to leak out of. I've ruined a few rain shells standing around fires.

Tipi Walter
07-04-2017, 23:28
For sleeping I have one word of advice and it's Western Mountaineering Puma.
I usually just sleep in light weight under wear, with an R5 value sleeping pad under me.

Exactly. When I got my Puma in 2005 it was rated to -15F at around 3 lbs 6 ozs. Now the same bag is rated to -25F at . . . wait for it . . . around 3 lbs 6 ozs. Weird. Maybe they use 900 fill down?? What sold me on the WM initially was the microfiber shell. Excellent bag.


If your flexible enough in timing your trips and/or location to avoid the worst of the winter temps and weather, you can compromise a bit on your sleeping gear.

Avoiding the worst of winter weather? But what's the fun in that??????

DownEaster
07-05-2017, 03:20
Avoiding the worst of winter weather? But what's the fun in that??????
The worst of winter weather isn't generally the coldest parts (though past -40° often qualifies). Usually the worst of winter weather is freezing rain. Add a brisk wind and you've got my personal winter nightmare: horizontal freezing rain. :eek:

garlic08
07-05-2017, 08:11
I've long held forth that in harsh conditions, knowledge is primary, gear secondary. Much of Tipi's post refers to this. The best down garments will quickly become worse than useless if you sweat through them on your first climb. If you don't properly ventilate your shelter, the same may happen to your sleeping insulation.

If you don't understand relative humidity and condensation, get a good book or resource and read up on it. You can learn when it's a good idea to wear damp clothing to bed, for instance, and when it's not. Learn about heat transfer modes and how best to deploy your insulation.

Learn about cold injuries, prevention and first aid. And as mentioned, cold injuries can occur at above-freezing temps.

Look for tips on staying safe and dry in camp, like when cooking and collecting drinking water. Pitching a shelter in frozen earth and snow uses a new set of techniques. Fire starting techniques could become critical.

Tipi Walter
07-05-2017, 10:01
The worst of winter weather isn't generally the coldest parts (though past -40° often qualifies). Usually the worst of winter weather is freezing rain. Add a brisk wind and you've got my personal winter nightmare: horizontal freezing rain. :eek:

You're right---a cold January 3 day rainstorm gets really old quick. There's a technique to deal with that---Hunker in and pull a couple zero weather days.

Hunkering in and knowing where to "make your stand" is vital on winter backpacking trips. There are a variety of storms which require the prudent backpacker to sit put and let them pass---

FIVE TYPES OF STORMS
There are about 6 kind of storms backpackers must deal with---


** Rainstorms (up to heavy deluges with ground water, lake effect---with or w/o wind). Hope you have a good floor on your tent. And as the Good German (German Tourist) says, rainstorms at 35F can really get old fast---I prefer to sit put and pull an in-tent zero during 35F rainstorms. (With rainstorms come floods, dangerous creek crossings and washed out bridges).


** Windstorms (these can get tough at times requiring a dang good tent along with ample guyouts and so if your shelter doesn't have room for 14-18 stakes, forget about it). Add rain to the mix and you will need a 4 season tent when horizontal rain comes down in buckets at 60mph up on a bald at 5,500 feet. (Beyond windstorms come tornadoes---and occurring more and more in the Southeast mountains).


** Lightning storms (most people consider these to be the most dangerous and sometimes you squat inside your shelter certain you'll be dead in about 15 minutes). Bail off the ridges/peaks and camp low is about your only option.


** Snowstorms/Blizzards (these usually cripple the normal backpacker in the Southeast as we do not carry snowshoes and rarely microspikes and so postholing up a mountain with weight in 2 feet of snow is not fun.) And then there are SNOWDOWNS---when the weight of a new snow causes the "green tunnel" of the trail to collapse so you have to belly crawl for a mile or more with a pack on your back. Not fun. Along with a snowstorm comes SPINDRIFT---whereby the 3 season tent or tarp gets covered inside with blown-in snow. Most blizzards are accompanied with #2---high winds.


** Coldstorms (yes, when the temps plummet way beyond normal, you're in a Coldstorm. (Like -15F or worse). A coldstorm is like any other storm as above---you have to make your stand somewhere "safe" and probably have to pull a couple zero days in your shelter to get thru it. Severe cold paralyzes the normal Southeast backpacker---BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO BAIL TO A TOWN to get thru it---just hunker in and wait it out.

** Finally, there are Sickstorms whereby you get the flu or the walking squirts or walking pneumonia or whatever else which requires a few zero days in the tent to knit up.




I've long held forth that in harsh conditions, knowledge is primary, gear secondary. Much of Tipi's post refers to this. The best down garments will quickly become worse than useless if you sweat through them on your first climb. If you don't properly ventilate your shelter, the same may happen to your sleeping insulation.

If you don't understand relative humidity and condensation, get a good book or resource and read up on it. You can learn when it's a good idea to wear damp clothing to bed, for instance, and when it's not. Learn about heat transfer modes and how best to deploy your insulation.

Learn about cold injuries, prevention and first aid. And as mentioned, cold injuries can occur at above-freezing temps.

Look for tips on staying safe and dry in camp, like when cooking and collecting drinking water. Pitching a shelter in frozen earth and snow uses a new set of techniques. Fire starting techniques could become critical.

No one I know wears down clothing while backpacking in the Southeast unless they're using a ultralight puffy jacket offering minimal down fill weight (and used instead of bulkier fleece). As mentioned, these down items are meant for in-camp use only.

Condensation WILL HAPPEN when camping in the mountains of TN, Georgia, NC and Virginia. When temps are cold and air humidity is high or during a wet snowfall or a long rainstorm at 35F you will get in-tent condensation. Hence my recommendation to avoid single wall shelters.

Last December I was in the TN mountains during a butt cold 75 hour rainstorm and alot of water formed on the inside of my tent fly and dripped down onto the inner canopy of the tent as shown below---all this water would've landed on me and my bag and gear had I used a single wall tent. The double inner wall kept 95% of it away.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Three-Citico-Nuts/i-JJswqpq/0/e96d7546/XL/TRIP%20170%20015-XL.jpg

Tipi Walter
07-05-2017, 10:09
Fire starting techniques could become critical.

It's funny, but I never build a fire in the winter. The warmest place in a forbidding frozen wilderness for me is not sitting by a campfire but sitting atop my high Rvalue sleeping pad(s) and partially under my down bag. Campfires are highly overrated in the winter unless I'm using a woodstove inside a tipi or a "hot tent". When it's 0F or -15F the last place I want to be is outside in the cold wind trying to get warm by a fire. Then again, I carry all the gear needed to have a furnace of warmth inside my tent with my clothing.

In other words, a good down bag and down clothing replaces a woodstove and a campfire. Or course in a survival situation---Your tent got destroyed and all your gear is soaked because you fell into a river---then a campfire could be of use. Otherwise I'm tent-bound and cozy.

Tipi Walter
07-05-2017, 10:16
Btw, all winter backpackers should carry a Ridgerest Solar ccf pad along with their winter inflatable, as pictured below---

Why? When the ground is frozen it's a great sit pad for in-tent sitting and cooking etc and just hanging out. But more important, when your all-important inflatable dies a terrible death and won't hold air (it will happen), you have the ccf pad as a backup to use for the rest of the trip. The Solar pad is rated 3.5R---and doubled up it gives you 7R for winter survival.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Three-Citico-Nuts/i-Js9ShDV/0/bb9cfb61/XL/TRIP%20170%20074-XL.jpg

soumodeler
07-06-2017, 14:47
Thanks for the replies everyone.

I should clarify that I am not looking to go out in a heavy rainstorm or blizzard conditions, more of just cold, clear weather, hopefully a small snowstorm at the most. I want to be prepared for rain, but not in it intentionally. I can be very flexible in a Friday to Monday window most every weekend.

I will definitely be taking the double walled TarpTent Notch instead of the Duplex. My understanding was that the partial solid inner tent on the Notch would make it warmer by stopping wind, and preventing snow drift better than the all mesh inner tent would. It costs $140 to get one so I wasn't sure if I really needed it.

I will be taking both my ZLite pad and the ProLite Plus, and stacking them for better insulation at R6 (3.4 + 2.6). Anyone have recommendations on keeping them together? I guess regular web straps will work just fine.

My biggest problem with clothing is getting the balance right. I am either sweating or freezing. My last cold dayhike was in the 20s and windy. Without the zip off legs I was uncomfortably cold, but with them on I started sweating. Same thing with on top: hiking shirt was way too cold, but adding a LS shirt was too warm and again I started sweating. Nothing was merino, so maybe that could help?

I'm still torn on the sleeping bag. I looked up the EN comfort rating for my Igneo 19 bag and it is 30*, which is about where I personally feel comfortable in it. So I guess I am average on the comfort level, but where do the WM bags fall? Is their stated rating comfort or lower limit? They don't use EN so how do I choose?

Venchka
07-06-2017, 15:29
My 20 degree F Alpinlite is listed in Europe as 16 degrees F lower limit. That's the lower limit of EN ratings. If you prowl around the written specs, you'll find that the testing is unreliable below that temperature level.
Having slept well in the Alpinlite below 15 F and the Antelope at or just below 0 F, the bags and I are a good fit.
Another Kevin uses a Notch and solid inner in upstate New York. I'm sure he can help you.
Nobody plans to go out in 3 day rain storms. They just happen.
Be dry. Be warm. Be safe.
Wayne


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Tipi Walter
07-06-2017, 15:32
I will be taking both my ZLite pad and the ProLite Plus, and stacking them for better insulation at R6 (3.4 + 2.6). Anyone have recommendations on keeping them together? I guess regular web straps will work just fine.

My biggest problem with clothing is getting the balance right. I am either sweating or freezing. My last cold dayhike was in the 20s and windy. Without the zip off legs I was uncomfortably cold, but with them on I started sweating. Same thing with on top: hiking shirt was way too cold, but adding a LS shirt was too warm and again I started sweating. Nothing was merino, so maybe that could help?

I'm still torn on the sleeping bag. I looked up the EN comfort rating for my Igneo 19 bag and it is 30*, which is about where I personally feel comfortable in it. So I guess I am average on the comfort level, but where do the WM bags fall? Is their stated rating comfort or lower limit? They don't use EN so how do I choose?

If you want to keep two sleeping pads together, go to walmart's fabric section and get some inch or 1.5 inch wide elastic strips and cut and sew together---like this--

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/21-Days-in-the-Snow/i-9JkZwbR/0/a1947230/XL/TRIP%20153%20270-XL.jpg
One winter I used two inflatables---a Prolite Plus with a Prolite. In case one dies you always have the other.

As far as being cold in just your hiking shirt---Try adding a good rain shell over this minimal layer and you'll stay warmer---and if you sweat just let the shirt get wet---it'll be a warm wet vs a cold wet.

As far as down bag warmth goes, it's like everything else: The heavier the bag the warmer it will be. (This goes for WM bags). The most important number is how much quality down (850/900 fill) in ounces is actually inside the bag. 35oz+ bags have traditionally been known as alpine mountaineering bags. In my opinion a 30F bag will not consistently keep me warm at anything below 40F.

I find WM bags aren't correct, either. My Puma is rated at -15F but realistically it starts to have problems at 0F.

A nice expensive down bag sitting at home is always bone dry and fully lofted. You can tell by how hard it is to get into its stuff sack. But this same bag generally won't be as dry and lofted on a trip due to high humidity and in-tent cold humid air and/or condensation, most especially if the trip is a week or 15 days long. So, in effect your nice lofted down bag at home won't be as dry and as lofted. You can easily tell this by how much easier it is to stuff and how smaller it stuffs.

soumodeler
07-06-2017, 15:47
Thanks Tipi. I guess I should probably go with the Lynx at -10* since I tend to be colder.

I like the elastic idea better than the nylon strap webbing I had in mind.

MtDoraDave
07-06-2017, 21:00
As a Florida boy, I don't deal with the cold as well as those who are used to it.
Lots of great advice in this thread. I've done a few trips with weather in the teens. The first one was dangerously under equipped. Cheap sleeping bag and all my layers, I was still cold. All. Night.
I bought a 0* down bag from a reputable company. I strip down to my base layer and crawl in, and am warm in a few minutes when the temps are in the teens.
Immediately before I start hiking, I remove my 2 fleece layers, hiking in base layer and outer layer - possibly rain suit if
it's windy.
Gloves, a tip from a retired railroad worker was to use neoprene diving gloves. Gloves liners help with moisture (sweat).
I use my body temperature as a speedometer. Cold, hike faster. Start sweating, slow down, take off hat, open jacket, etc.

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MtDoraDave
07-06-2017, 21:07
Other things to be aware of: gas canisters don't work well under freezing temps. Sawyer squeeze filters cannot freeze, or they're ruined.
Having a sleeping bag rated for colder temps than you expect allows for keeping a few cold items inside it with you, to keep them from freezing and still stay warm yourself... Or so my experience has been.

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Tipi Walter
07-06-2017, 21:09
I sleep in my baselayers all year long---summer and winter. Baselayers in my case is a long sleeve silk top and merino leggings (summer or winter weight)---with or without my hats. First off it keeps my valuable down bag cleaner with no sweat or body oils (or explosive sharting)---AND it feels better than to be bare-skinned against the nylon surface of my sleeping pads etc. Or bare skinned against my sleeping bag inner fabric.