View Full Version : short on water, long on sun. What to do...
Say you're out hikin in the hot sun and you're out of water -- or, anyway, low on water. You've got 5 miles to water. You've got some short but steep hills in front of you. 8 hours till sundown.
Do you try to go on now, thinking you're not going to last 8 hours without water -- or, wait for night and cooler temperatures?
HooKooDooKu
07-11-2017, 18:22
More information is required.
My only experience hiking out in California is hiking the JMT, which shares a path at times with the PCT.
On the JMT, 'hikin in the hot sun' means you're above treeline with temperatures likely no higher than 85º (because of the altitude).
Water is very plentiful, so at any given instance, I should be well hydrated and can afford to loose some water thru sweating with out risking heat stroke.
While the hills are very long, they are generally not extremely steep. Even with a heavy pack, I usually could hike at a 1mph pace up hill (so I only need to go without water for 5 hours).
So if the water source 5 miles away is reliable, and the temperatures are not 100º+, and I'm not already dehydrated... then yea, I'm going to go get me some water.
But if I'm already dehydrated or the temperatures are so hot that I risk heat stroke without water, I'm going to find the coolest spot I can near by to rest, and wait until conditions improve.
"and wait until conditions improve."
Chances are good that won't be until after midnight.
Wayne
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If you keep yourself hydrated and aren't in a deficit then five miles is no big deal, hike it. If you are there and dehydrated then umbrella up and still hike on.
No worries. Hit the PLB. The SWAT TEAM or S&R should have some. They should be coming along any moment now sans Walkie Talkies.
If you keep yourself hydrated and aren't in a deficit then five miles is no big deal, hike it. If you are there and dehydrated then umbrella up and still hike on.
Well, since you brought up umbrellas, let me ask about em. Cause I'm a guy that likes 2 hiking poles. I have an HMG pack, nothing "built in" to attach an umbrella to it. But, I'm sure I could figure a way to attach it. But then - isn't it gonna be getting snagged on brush and stuff all the time?
or, is it easier to just sacrifice one pole for the umbrella?
I suppose the impetus for this thread was Brandenberg's experience. If it was given all that I've heard about this and knowing what many PCTets would be doing this yr what I would assume would happen would be just what did happen - other PCTers would come along and help him out and wait with him.
No worries. Hit the PLB. The SWAT TEAM or S&R should have some. They should be coming along any moment now sans Walkie Talkies.
Well, if you read that story, I think they said s&r finally got there after 12 or 14 hours!
garlic08
07-11-2017, 19:49
I'm not getting the timing here. If water is five miles away, and you're healthy and hydrated at that point, that's about 1.5 hours at a typical PCT pace. Where do we get eight hours without water in the scenario?
In the SoCal desert, my wife and I often clocked four mph on our PCT thru. Five miles often passed by hardly noticing it.
But the trick is to not rely on any given water source. It's a good idea to have enough in reserve to get to the next source if you have to. At that point, you're in an emergency and you might have to wait until night, etc.
If you keep yourself hydrated and aren't in a deficit then five miles is no big deal, hike it. If you are there and dehydrated then umbrella up and still hike on.
Hey I did only 2.8 miles yesterday. At the start, I didn't check the temp. It just felt cooler than it had the last couple days (the last couple days, being 108)!
I had night-hiked the previous days. But it's a little spooky out there at night. So, I decided to day hike it. At the turnaround point - 1.4 miles, there's an optional steep 90' hill, if you want to do it. First you go down, then turn around and go back up.
I think I would have been fine if I hadn't done that hill. It was probably 100 at that point. But I did the hill, and when I got back to the top, I was really hot, shirt was drenched, heart was racing, I was really huffing and puffing. I rested about 10 minutes. But it was still tough for me getting back to the th, and even gradual grades uphill were tough. I stopped to rest twice during that 1.4 mile walk back to the car...
At the end, it was 102.
In the article Brandenberg said he was 9 miles to his next water source and additionally stated he was dry heaving and cramping. I take that to possibly mean he was looking ONLY AHEAD in the direction of hIs next water stop as planned for on his hike as in advancing his hike (thru-hike?). That is a mistake that thru hikers can get themselves in to. Not that he necessarily should of because we dont have enough location info but greater odds of safety could have been been directionally elsewhere like retreatING back down the trail from where he came.
More information is required.
My only experience hiking out in California is hiking the JMT, which shares a path at times with the PCT.
On the JMT, 'hikin in the hot sun' means you're above treeline with temperatures likely no higher than 85º (because of the altitude).
Water is very plentiful, so at any given instance, I should be well hydrated and can afford to loose some water thru sweating with out risking heat stroke.
While the hills are very long, they are generally not extremely steep. Even with a heavy pack, I usually could hike at a 1mph pace up hill (so I only need to go without water for 5 hours).
So if the water source 5 miles away is reliable, and the temperatures are not 100º+, and I'm not already dehydrated... then yea, I'm going to go get me some water.
But if I'm already dehydrated or the temperatures are so hot that I risk heat stroke without water, I'm going to find the coolest spot I can near by to rest, and wait until conditions improve.
Thks, Hookoo. I think your last paragraph fits what I'm thinking. I'm thinking conditions more like southern cal than jmt.... - except that in s. Cal, you might be lucky if you're only 5 miles from water
Jefals where was this?
Little "training trail" I do, close to my house in Sacramento.
Pertaining to your "training trail" when temps are hitting triple digits, you know there is little shade, it's mid July in CA, and you know your fitness level maybe carrying extra enhanced water, having a training partner or other at the TH,/not being alone, arranging for cooler training times, selecting a different trail with different conditions more suitable, and ratcheting down the strenuous level could be wise? Or how about taking some training indoors to where the conditions areooler and more controlled to your trainin regimen? Or maybe you're training to start a Low to High Route or NOBO AZT this week?
Don't literally kill yourself training. It's hiking not the Olumpics.;)
Pertaining to your "training trail" when temps are hitting triple digits, you know there is little shade, it's mid July in CA, and you know your fitness level maybe carrying extra enhanced water, having a training partner or other at the TH,/not being alone, arranging for cooler training times, selecting a different trail with different conditions more suitable, and ratcheting down the strenuous level could be wise? Or how about taking some training indoors to where the conditions areooler and more controlled to your trainin regimen? Or maybe you're training to start a Low to High Route or NOBO AZT this week?
Don't literally kill yourself training. It's hiking not the Olumpics.;)
Thanks, DW. No partner available, unfortunately. I know my mistake was heading out during the heat of the day. I just started night hiking. I've only done it twice, both times on this trail. It's a little spooky out there for me at night, and I decided to chance that day hike. That was a mistake.
In March, I was in pretty good shape. Did a cross country road trip, and a lot of great hiking along the way - my favorite being in Franklin SP, in El Paso.
But when I got back I had surgery to correct "trigger fingers" on both hands, and that got me sitting on the couch for a couple months. So now I'm trying to get ready for , maybe, some pct or the snow to clear on a couple of sections on the TRT. I'm up to 5.5 miles and 575 feet of climbing on the training trail. This is carrying 2.5l water and my sleeping bag in an hmg pack. So now I have to gradually start adding more stuff to my pack, till I'm comfortable carrying everything... I'll get there!
Slo-go'en
07-11-2017, 20:52
The real question is how do you prevent putting yourself into that situation in the first place. Once you find yourself out of water, seriously dehydrated and a significant distance from more water, there is really only two things you can do. 1) hope someone comes by with water which they can spare or 2) call for rescue. The third option is to laydown and die, a fate not uncommon in that part of the world.
SkeeterPee
07-11-2017, 20:57
Another consideration may be diminished thirst. I've read in Marathon Training books that older runners (age 50+) can't rely on thirst to gauge drinking. Thirst can be diminished as we age. I'm not sure hiking gets studied like running, but I would think it may be similar for hiking in the heat. I know I seem to drink less and end up somewhat dehydrated when backpacking in warm weather.
The real question is how do you prevent putting yourself into that situation in the first place. Once you find yourself out of water, seriously dehydrated and a significant distance from more water, there is really only two things you can do. 1) hope someone comes by with water which they can spare or 2) call for rescue. The third option is to laydown and die, a fate not uncommon in that part of the world.
Right. I know you want to prevent the situation. But - for whatever reason, I'm putting out the scenario that you DO find yourself in that situation. Who knows; maybe you met a hiker short on water and gave him your extra bottle, then your camelbak sprung a leak. Whatever.
Just trying to get thoughts on the two alternatives;
Walk on during the heat because you're afraid of trying to go 8 hours without water, or lie still for 8 hours, and wait for it to cool off...
HooKooDooKu
07-11-2017, 21:24
Another consideration may be diminished thirst. I've read in Marathon Training books that older runners (age 50+) can't rely on thirst to gauge drinking. Thirst can be diminished as we age. I'm not sure hiking gets studied like running, but I would think it may be similar for hiking in the heat. I know I seem to drink less and end up somewhat dehydrated when backpacking in warm weather.
When I started the JMT, I had no problems keeping hydrated climbing out of Yosemite Valley. I guess the work of the climb kept my mouth dry and constantly kept me drinking. But the 3rd day was a down hill hike into Tuolumne and a relatively level hike through Lyell Canyon. I hadly drank at all that day and ended evening feeling sick in part to dehydration. Make sure to always keep drinking after that.
Franklin Mts SP has that nice ridge line walk. You're one of the rare few here on WB who have shared about it. I wish I would have done more of it but had to catch a flight. Some head to the AP bar and have drinks, browse shops, sleep, or get a room when they have 7 hrs awaiting a flight. I went for a sweaty strenuous hike taking a bus to Franklin Mts SP and hiking. LOL. That was the end of a great two months - Denver hitting up my favorite outfitters while staying at some awesome hiker friends, a CT flip flop thru-hike, hitching down to Carlsbad Caverns NP hiking(YES there's hiking in C NP) and caving, hiking from CC NP to Guadalupe NP off trail through Lincoln Nat. Forest/Rattlesnake Canyon, traversing G NP, hitching down to Big Bend NP(got one ride from the G NP CG) doing a bunch of loops and hiking there, and then hitching to El Paso. Wait! More time. What's around here we can also hike? THX for allowing me to reminiscence.
Franklin Mts SP has that nice ridge line walk. You're one of the rare few here on WB who have shared about it. I wish I would have done more of it but had to catch a flight. Some head to the AP bar and have drinks, browse shops, sleep, or get a room when they have 7 hrs awaiting a flight. I went for a sweaty strenuous hike taking a bus to Franklin Mts SP and hiking. LOL. That was the end of a great two months - Denver hitting up my favorite outfitters while staying at some awesome hiker friends, a CT flip flop thru-hike, hitching down to Carlsbad Caverns NP hiking(YES there's hiking in C NP) and caving, hiking from CC NP to Guadalupe NP off trail through Lincoln Nat. Forest/Rattlesnake Canyon, traversing G NP, hitching down to Big Bend NP(got one ride from the G NP CG) doing a bunch of loops and hiking there, and then hitching to El Paso. Wait! More time. What's around here we can also hike? THX for allowing me to reminiscence.
Glad I brought back memories. I did some of those in 2014 -- Big Bend and Guadalupe. Carlsbad -- but caving there, not hiking. More hiking in the Sandias.
I had actually planned to be going to Guadalupe that day last March - but my phone app told me it was closed. Leaving El Paso, I saw the entrance to Franklin I had never heard of it before. Pulled in and had a very enjoyable hike. Later, as Guadalupe wasn't far out of my way, I went by just to see if it was really closed - it wasn't. Oh well...
gwschenk
07-12-2017, 10:03
In the article Brandenberg said he was 9 miles to his next water source and additionally stated he was dry heaving and cramping. I take that to possibly mean he was looking ONLY AHEAD in the direction of hIs next water stop as planned for on his hike as in advancing his hike (thru-hike?). That is a mistake that thru hikers can get themselves in to. Not that he necessarily should of because we dont have enough location info but greater odds of safety could have been been directionally elsewhere like retreatING back down the trail from where he came.
Or maybe even go sideways OFF the trail. There's plenty of water near the trail. For that you might need more resources than just a strip map on your phone.
There's the pct water report, which lists some of the off trail water sources. Nevertheless, there's a reason they call it a desert out there...
Combined with traveling stupid light.
The hiker freely admitted his error.
Often read around here. "My SUL WonderPack hurts with 2 liters of water" Dumb.
Be safe Y'all.
Wayne
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Or maybe even go sideways OFF the trail. There's plenty of water near the trail. For that you might need more resources than just a strip map on your phone.
Yes. That certainly can be an option but it's a judgment call needing info we don't have about his situation, for example, his exact location. Arm chair quarterbacking Brandenberg's situation will include making assumptions. Info is being filtered through media reports making info we get dubious or at least incomplete. It's the same with bear encounters. It's similar to watching TV televised poker tournaments where home viewers have available more info than the players at the tables. Hey, when we are shown what other players are holding it's easier to play our own hand. LOL.
Remember Brandenberg was already cramping and heaving, probably afraid/concerned about his health not knowing how far it would deteriorate, was faced with maybe some ascents(which can seem like Mt Everest in his situation), backpacking in/near triple digit temps, and sounds like hiking solo on an interstate hiking trail in a high snow yr with more PCT thrus and hikers using the PCT choosing to start/hike later than typical. It's a weird dilemma sometimes in desert hiking - either too much water or not enough. Leaving the main tread might not be the best idea. Then again to get water down a hill where there was shade...?
Remember other PCTers came along to his aid! This is what the hiking community does. This is what I would expect. But Brandenberg contacted S&R maybe because he didn't know who was in his vicinity how soon they might come along? Brandenberg 1) stopped, prolly a good choice than continuing on 2) was able to call for assistance 3) recognizes his error. I'd say Brandenberg did some things that did/are working out well. Like to see him get back on the PCT.
gwschenk
07-12-2017, 14:52
Arm chair quarterbacking Brandenberg's situation will include making assumptions.
Absolutely, I was thinking in general terms, not his situation in particular. He could have made one correct decision after another and still have found himself in a jam.
Combined with traveling stupid light.
The hiker freely admitted his error.
Often read around here. "My SUL WonderPack hurts with 2 liters of water" Dumb.
Be safe Y'all.
Wayne
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Sorry.
Old. Dazed. Confused.
Wayne
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Who pays for search parties, helicopters and bear injuries?
search parties -- sometimes they're volunteers, and won't take money from the "rescuee" (if that's the word).
Bear injuries ? I guess if you get injured by a bear, you - and maybe the bear - will pay the price for that.
In mine and Jeff's case, Medicare A, B and Supplemental will handle the bear injuries.
Where did bear injuries come from anyway?
Wayne
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Desert hiking is a whole new animal. Knowing where reliable water is, cameling up when your there and carrying an extra liter or 2 is paramount to success. Hiking before 10am after 4pm will help, but most important, "eat" your water don't drink it, trying to stay in balance. This is one situation that hydration bladders make sense, IMO. The micro climate cooling scarves and bandanas really help as does large brim hats. Also avoid protein rich or complex carb foods, they take a lot of water to digest.
"Eat your water"? What does that mean?
swjohnsey
07-12-2017, 20:43
From SERE training, when on short water go without for a while, your body will go into conservation mode reducing urine and extracting more water from bowels. Travel at night, try not to exert enough to sweat.
Slo-go'en
07-12-2017, 20:56
"Eat your water"? What does that mean?
He might have meant "sip" your water. Bladders make it easy to sip water frequently, but the trouble is you can sip the bladder dry without much warning and a lot sooner then you might expect. Plus bladders have been known to fail. OTOH, only stopping occasionally to gulp down half a bottle of water might not be a good game plan either.
So, how do you carry a big load of water? I'm thinking frame pack set up to carry 4, 2L bottles.
I don't know why people keep referring to the JMT which is pretty cool compared to other parts of the PCT. The hottest parts of the PCT are in SoCal, followed by NorCal (north of Tahoe) which are low elevation and can still hit 100 in mid summer when you drop into the valleys. NorCal at least has partial shade throughout the day since there is a lot of forest (thought not the dense forests found back east), while SoCal can have little to no shade depending on where you are at the time.
My experience from hiking the PCT and other hikes done in desert like areas, I need less water when I choose to not hike in the heat of the day. Stopping before noon and waiting in some shade til 3pm uses less water for the miles than trying to hike through the heat of the day. I also find that after taking a long siesta, I'm able to hike faster since my body has rested and mostly recovered from the mornings hiking. Those reflective umbrellas do work as my experiements showed a noticeable drop in temperature under it. Having access to enough water to soak your shirt and hat provide a great cooling effect till they dry out. Of course, if you have access to that much water, you wouldn't have asked your question in the first place. I only bring that method up since it did allow me to hike through the heat of the day in NorCal when hiking the very low elevation section "O" which hit over 100F at Burney Falls SP.
"Eat your water"? What does that mean?
He might have meant "sip" your water. Bladders make it easy to sip water frequently, but the trouble is you can sip the bladder dry without much warning and a lot sooner then you might expect. Plus bladders have been known to fail. OTOH, only stopping occasionally to gulp down half a bottle of water might not be a good game plan either.
So, how do you carry a big load of water? I'm thinking frame pack set up to carry 4, 2L bottles.
My first backpack trip ever was going to be the first 109 miles of the PCT. Starting at Campo, I had to do 20 miles to get to water. Alone and nervous. I had 7 liters! 3 in the Camelbak, the rest in my smart bottles in the side pockets.
But even on stretches where I carried less, I always split it up. A VERY WISE ole hiker gave me great advice; never have all your water in one container. (Probably doesn't matter on the AT, but it does in the southwest )
He might have meant "sip" your water. Bladders make it easy to sip water frequently, but the trouble is you can sip the bladder dry without much warning and a lot sooner then you might expect. Plus bladders have been known to fail. OTOH, only stopping occasionally to gulp down half a bottle of water might not be a good game plan either.
So, how do you carry a big load of water? I'm thinking frame pack set up to carry 4, 2L bottles.
The ULA Catalyst that I used last summer would hold a 3 liter Platypus Hoser internally, 2-3 liter Nalgene soft canteens (1 in each side pocket), 1 liter bottle on each shoulder strap. Total 11 liters.
Wayne
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Desert hiking is a whole new animal. Knowing where reliable water is, cameling up when your there and carrying an extra liter or 2 is paramount to success. Hiking before 10am after 4pm will help, but most important, "eat" your water don't drink it, trying to stay in balance. This is one situation that hydration bladders make sense, IMO. The micro climate cooling scarves and bandanas really help as does large brim hats. Also avoid protein rich or complex carb foods, they take a lot of water to digest.
I think, and I may at least be partly incorrect, when it's said, "eat your water don't drink I" I always took that survival idea to mean two things:
1) hold the water in your closed mouth for an extended time swishing it around in essence "eating" it not gulping it immediately down. I thought I remember reading that fools your mouth(body?) into thinking you drank more.
2) eat your water by considering getting a % of H20 from your food that also has a cooling effect. First day out of a resupply in hot sunny desert conditions I'll consider taking along some fresh berries like blueberries, blackberries or strawberries, a small lemon, a small cucumber, small bag of radishes(share with another), orange, carrot(helps keep from burning too), and especially greens. Ever hear the phrase cool as a cucumber? Turns out there's truth to it. Cucumbers have chemicals in them that cool us. Same with radishes even types like Daikon(a variety looking more like a smooth parsnip served spiraled at sushi bars with such rolls as spicy tuna to cool down and clean the palette). It's one reason why these are common around the Mediterranean, N Africa(where roots veggies are common), etc. If you ever see watercress in the produce aisle grab some for the first day or two out! It's water and nutrient rich! Another not only water but nutrient rich powerhouse for hot desert hikes to consider are sprouts. You've heard me say it before. I like growing and eating sprouts on trail. One reason is because the nutrients but another is the water. If I pass water once or more a day I can grow sprouts. I did it in the Mojave, Sonoran and Great Basin Deserts.
[QUOTE=Slo-go'en;2159452]
The ULA Catalyst that I used last summer would hold a 3 liter Platypus Hoser internally, 2-3 liter Nalgene soft canteens (1 in each side pocket), 1 liter bottle on each shoulder strap. Total 11 liters.
Wayne
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Oh yeah? Hmpfh! Well, I can put my 3l Camelbak inside, my pack, 2 1.5l bottles in each side pocket, then biner a 6l MSR on the back, and now I got 15 liters! I just need Schwarzenegger to carry it!
if you pass water once or more a day, you can grow sprouts?
Uh, not exactly sure what this means - but I think I'll be gettin my sprouts elsewhere! ?
[QUOTE=Venchka;2159463]
Oh yeah? Hmpfh! Well, I can put my 3l Camelbak inside, my pack, 2 1.5l bottles in each side pocket, then biner a 6l MSR on the back, and now I got 15 liters! I just need Schwarzenegger to carry it!
Maybe. But your Camelbak self empties in about an hour. My Platy and Nalgene containers don't.
I'm not fond of hanging heavy stuff on the outside of the pack. Personal preference.
Wayne
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no, the cbak doesn't leak in the REI pack. And I'm just kidding about 15 liters of water. I'm not going to be strapping 6l of water on my pack. ?
Lol. Why not?
Yikes! Didn't know you meant the REI BEAST. The Catalyst only weighed 3 pounds.
Have fun!
Wayne
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if you pass water once or more a day, you can grow sprouts?
Uh, not exactly sure what this means - but I think I'll be gettin my sprouts elsewhere! ?
LOL. Ahh, Septuagenarian Sac humor. Salty sprouts w/ lemon juice anyone.
Not specific to this but something I've posted about over the years is going without water in a controlled situation so that I can get a feel for what it feels like to really push myself so that in the event I really do find myself in a situation I'll have some idea of what to expect.
An example is hiking 10-15 miles on the AT around here without carrying water at all and intentionally not drinking any. I know where every puddle is so push-come-to-shove I'm not going to die but at the same time it can be really-really hard to cross a creek or pass a spring thirsty as all get out.
It's kinda like learning not to carry that extra day of food because nobody is going to die if they go without eating for 24 hours.