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JPritch
07-14-2017, 10:30
My Dad and I were debating the merits of this a few weeks ago. You've seen the billboards for adopting a "Barn Cat". What about the AT Clubs adopting and placing "Shelter Cats" to control the mouse population. Would this work?

BuckeyeBill
07-14-2017, 10:55
I don't believe it would, as the adopted cat is use to having someone feed it on a regular basis. If placed at the shelter, it would be awhile before feral instincts kick in and it started feeding on shelter mice. In doing so, I feel it would be cruel and inhuman. Mice at shelters are just like snakes on the trail, it's all part of the adventure.

The Kisco Kid
07-14-2017, 11:02
The other option is snakes. Edward Abbey detailed his use of this technique in his book Desert Solitaire

Trailweaver
07-14-2017, 11:21
It is animal cruelty pure and simple. There is no regular food source, there is no medical care, there are animals that would see the cat as a food source, and the winters are brutal for a domestic animal. Please do not do this.

Bronk
07-14-2017, 12:08
Don't be fooled by full shelters you see during the spring thruhiker season. Many of these shelters are unoccupied for much of the rest of the year.

Bronk
07-14-2017, 12:09
Despite the long lifespan of a housecat, most people don't realize that outdoor cats or 'barn cats' have an average lifespan of only 1 to 3 years. Its a hard life.

Sarcasm the elf
07-14-2017, 12:27
Despite the long lifespan of a housecat, most people don't realize that outdoor cats or 'barn cats' have an average lifespan of only 1 to 3 years. Its a hard life.
I can confirm this. I've seen a few make it eight or ten years, but most of them disappear before the three year mark.

Based on my experience with my friend's farm, I would venture to guess that the local coyotes would make quick work of any shelter cats.

Teacher & Snacktime
07-14-2017, 13:49
My Dad and I were debating the merits of this a few weeks ago. You've seen the billboards for adopting a "Barn Cat". What about the AT Clubs adopting and placing "Shelter Cats" to control the mouse population. Would this work?

No shelter would allow you to adopt an animal with the intent of abandoning it. Most shelters go out of their way to rehabilitate ferile cats, and wouldn't appreciate your adding more to the mix. Try to appreciate the cruelty of what you're suggesting; cat's are not as without-need as many believe. Shelter cats have already been abandoned once and homes, not additional abandonment, is being sought for them through shelters.

Tennessee Viking
07-14-2017, 13:52
Plus would you want cat piss smelling up the shelter.

Teacher & Snacktime
07-14-2017, 13:56
Plus would you want cat piss smelling up the shelter.

Even cats can get used to the smell of hikers.....:D

Trailweaver
07-14-2017, 14:43
Right - I've smelled some sleeping bags I wouldn't sit on, much less sleep in!

perdidochas
07-14-2017, 14:50
My Dad and I were debating the merits of this a few weeks ago. You've seen the billboards for adopting a "Barn Cat". What about the AT Clubs adopting and placing "Shelter Cats" to control the mouse population. Would this work?

The problem is that they wouldn't only eat shelter mice. Anything small would be fair game, and the wildlife in the area would be effected.

Ethesis
07-14-2017, 15:07
They have them in Europe in places where the weather is milder and people pack in food to see the cats through the down cycle. On the AT the mice are seasonal, the winters are rough, and I can't see dedication to packing in food.

Otherwise there would already be wild cats living there. Heck. My neighborhood has bob cats that keep the rabbits down.

Ethesis
07-14-2017, 15:09
Also see initiatives like this one:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Collin-County-Combating-Rodent-Problem-with-Free-Feral-Cats-399538301.html%3Famp%3Dy

but it is not a fire and forget approach.

BuckeyeBill
07-14-2017, 16:36
No shelter would allow you to adopt an animal with the intent of abandoning it. Most shelters go out of their way to rehabilitate ferile cats, and wouldn't appreciate your adding more to the mix. Try to appreciate the cruelty of what you're suggesting; cat's are not as without-need as many believe. Shelter cats have already been abandoned once and homes, not additional abandonment, is being sought for them through shelters.

When I lived in NYC, my wife and I went to the Humane Society to adopt a dog. We were looking for a certain dog we had seen on line, but fell for another one. After filling out a stack of paperwork, they needed to see our latest bank statement. I asked why, and they said so we know you can afford to care for the dog. I asked if a balance statement from an ATM would work, which worked for them. Both of us ran our businesses and our balance was higher than most. Once they saw it they told us how much Henry would cost us which we gladly paid. Made the wife happy and I was happy for both my wife and the dog.

atraildreamer
07-14-2017, 17:38
I can confirm this. I've seen a few make it eight or ten years, but most of them disappear before the three year mark.

Based on my experience with my friend's farm, I would venture to guess that the local coyotes would make quick work of any shelter cats.

We rescued an abandoned, and abused, :eek: 3 year-old cat after it had gone feral. It took a trip to the vet, a few weeks of TLC and good food, (including LOTS of tuna fish :D) before it started to trust us, but she came around and become the friendliest pet, (reflecting her new name: "Happy" :)), that we ever had. She was 23 years-old when she died. :(

KDogg
07-14-2017, 22:32
I'm sure the mountain lions would like this idea....

That said, even barn cats get fed every day. While they did take care of business quite well, they didn't live what they caught. They also didn't discriminate between mice or birds. In the woods I'm sure there are many birds, chipmunks, snakes, etc. that would suffer. Definitely not LNT.

Busky2
07-15-2017, 06:43
I'd rather the mice.

The Old Chief
07-15-2017, 08:43
There was a cat that lived at Iron Mtn Shelter South of Damascus back in 2005. Probably lived a short life. There are plenty of snakes around shelters in the Sumertime after the crowd has passed thru. Mannasas Gap Shelter used to have a lot of snakes all the time even during hiker season.

davesailer
07-15-2017, 20:12
For this to work, you would need to permanently move in with the cat to feed, protect, and care for it.

Other than that, these four things are likely if a cat is abandoned at a random place, in decreasing order of likelihood:

(1) The cat will immediately run off, just as you would, since a trailside shelter means nothing to it.

(2) In short order the cat will be eaten by stray dogs, coyotes, bobcats or something else that actually does live there and knows the rules.

(3) The cat will starve from lack of food. Even if it stays, and culls the existing mice, what then? If you think that foraging for food is easy, then try it for a year, without clothes, tools, training, or support.

(4) The cat will eventually (within hours, days, or weeks) die of exposure.

Also, you will likely be eligible for criminal prosecution under animal cruelty laws. Since you have put your thoughts in writing, in public, and are a registered user of this forum, law enforcement would be able to track you down and use your post as evidence at your trial.

Uncle Joe
07-16-2017, 00:15
While I agree that introducing cats at shelters is a bad idea and not likely to work, I disagree that the cat will largely die in short order. Cats feral rather easily and are generally very resourceful. Will they survive long term? Probably not but they’re hardly helpless animals.

As for legality, the op was merely asking about the feasibility and I see nothing to suggest he was planning to actually implement anything.

blue indian
07-16-2017, 09:46
Absolutely not.

Cats that are let out of the house to roam free pose a real threat to local wildlife. They kill everything and don't even eat it. They will kill birds, any small mammal, frogs, lizards, toads, salamanders, spiders, snakes...etc.

I really hate when I see cats roaming around because their owners just let them out to get "fresh air" or "exercise". This is ignorant and harmful to the local ecosystem. DONT DO IT!! (im talking to you cat owners).

Ethesis
07-16-2017, 12:20
Absolutely not.

Cats that are let out of the house to roam free pose a real threat to local wildlife. They kill everything and don't even eat it. They will kill birds, any small mammal, frogs, lizards, toads, salamanders, spiders, snakes...etc.

I really hate when I see cats roaming around because their owners just let them out to get "fresh air" or "exercise". This is ignorant and harmful to the local ecosystem. DONT DO IT!! (im talking to you cat owners).

the English cat cam experiment showed cats kill a lot of insects.

They also steal food from each other.

However, wild cats are a definite niche.

Where I live we have a serious rat problem for lack of enough cats.

The rabbits i dont mind as much, but the rats get into attics.

TexasBob
07-16-2017, 14:04
......Where I live we have a serious rat problem for lack of enough cats. The rabbits i dont mind as much, but the rats get into attics.

There are much better ways to control an urban/suburban rat problem than by creating a stray cat problem also.

Time Zone
07-16-2017, 14:14
I really hate when I see cats roaming around because their owners just let them out to get "fresh air" or "exercise". This is ignorant and harmful to the local ecosystem. DONT DO IT!! (im talking to you cat owners).

Hike your own hike. I think it's cruel to keep them indoors 100% of the time (unless they're declawed, which is another story entirely). Cats love the outdoors, which should be no surprise. Mine have only ever caught chipmunks (and the occasional shrew), which are a serious yard pests, digging holes everywhere. So I appreciate what little dent they can put in the population, though cleaning up afterwards isn't always fun, when they bring you a "present". Just one of my two cats can catch them, and I'd say it averages less than 2 per year. Hardly a wholesale slaughter of wildlife.

TexasBob
07-17-2017, 08:54
Hike your own hike. I think it's cruel to keep them indoors 100% of the time (unless they're declawed, which is another story entirely). Cats love the outdoors, which should be no surprise. Mine have only ever caught chipmunks (and the occasional shrew), which are a serious yard pests, digging holes everywhere. So I appreciate what little dent they can put in the population, though cleaning up afterwards isn't always fun, when they bring you a "present". Just one of my two cats can catch them, and I'd say it averages less than 2 per year. Hardly a wholesale slaughter of wildlife.

Your cats may be an exception but cats do have a major impact on wildlife. Personally I would rather see more wildlife around my house than my neighbors cat.
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380

BuckeyeBill
07-17-2017, 09:38
There are much better ways to control an urban/suburban rat problem than by creating a stray cat problem also.

When I lived in NYC, I saw rats big enough to kick the crap out of a cat. :D

egilbe
07-17-2017, 10:12
Cats were thought to be witches familiar in the middle ages. Cats were killed out of hand. The population of rats exploded and brought the black plague. Don't kill cats and you won't die a gruesome death is the lesson here.

Fredt4
07-25-2017, 01:33
Unfortunately rats didn't cause the plague. But it's a good story to tell. Cats naturally belong outside and keeping them indoors is something I don't understand. True they are killers but that's an activity that's controllable. Indoor cats are a class of cats created by certain people and while it's possible it does have certain costs as far as the cats are concerned.

egilbe
07-25-2017, 06:43
The fleas the rats carried, carried the plague. No rats, no fleas, no plague

blue indian
07-25-2017, 08:49
the English cat cam experiment showed cats kill a lot of insects.

They also steal food from each other.

However, wild cats are a definite niche.

Where I live we have a serious rat problem for lack of enough cats.

The rabbits i dont mind as much, but the rats get into attics.



You need more snakes. Not cats. But the cats kill snakes so...

TexasBob
07-25-2017, 08:57
Unfortunately rats didn't cause the plague. But it's a good story to tell. Cats naturally belong outside and keeping them indoors is something I don't understand. True they are killers but that's an activity that's controllable. Indoor cats are a class of cats created by certain people and while it's possible it does have certain costs as far as the cats are concerned.

How do you keep an outdoor cat from killing?

illabelle
07-25-2017, 09:22
How do you keep an outdoor cat from killing?

Bell on the collar? Or maybe one of these (https://www.birdsbesafe.com/)?

Fredt4
07-25-2017, 10:48
Bell on the collar? Or maybe one of these (https://www.birdsbesafe.com/)?
"It's scientifically validated and was shown to reduce birds caught by 87%!"

It's a device that help you control, not prevent, killings.

Sarcasm the elf
07-25-2017, 10:52
How do you keep an outdoor cat from killing?

I think you misunderstand the purpose of having an outdoor cat...

TexasBob
07-25-2017, 11:41
I think you misunderstand the purpose of having an outdoor cat...

Fredt4 says he can keep his outdoor cat from killing things and I was asking how he does that. The purpose of having an outdoor cat is to mostly annoy your neighbors and have them deal with your cat's poop in their garden instead of in a litter box in your house. :rolleyes:

Fredt4
07-25-2017, 15:26
Fredt4 says he can keep his outdoor cat from killing things and I was asking how he does that. The purpose of having an outdoor cat is to mostly annoy your neighbors and have them deal with your cat's poop in their garden instead of in a litter box in your house. :rolleyes:

You so misquote me. I said that it's controllable. Several others have so indicated. Enjoy.

Fredt4
07-25-2017, 15:26
Fredt4 says he can keep his outdoor cat from killing things and I was asking how he does that. The purpose of having an outdoor cat is to mostly annoy your neighbors and have them deal with your cat's poop in their garden instead of in a litter box in your house. :rolleyes:

You so misquote me. I said that it's controllable. Several others have so indicated. Enjoy.

Lone Wolf
07-25-2017, 15:36
My Dad and I were debating the merits of this a few weeks ago. You've seen the billboards for adopting a "Barn Cat". What about the AT Clubs adopting and placing "Shelter Cats" to control the mouse population. Would this work?

dumb idea.....

rocketsocks
07-25-2017, 16:01
Coyotes love cats, so do fox, wild dogs...ect

Ethesis
07-25-2017, 16:18
As I said. I've seen cats on European trails, especially Italy.

But. People were committed in hiking in food and engaging in other care for them.

It looked to me that it was a more than once once a week endeavor. Supporting shelter cats would be a lot of work.

Would be neat if there was an easier solution than hiker responsibility for keeping shelters clean of mice.

TNhiker
07-25-2017, 16:39
Would be neat if there was an easier solution than hiker responsibility for keeping shelters clean of mice.



well............

it all boils down to food storage and all that..........

which, is the hiker's responsibility........


no food---no mice.....

Fredt4
07-25-2017, 19:27
The fleas the rats carried, carried the plague. No rats, no fleas, no plague

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrodgers/2015/02/28/gerbils-not-rats-spread-the-black-death/#750097eaa342

Gerbils were probably the culprit but they've loveable & cute, whereas rats are ugly.

egilbe
07-25-2017, 21:08
Still rats.

kestral
07-28-2017, 17:52
Bell on the collar? Or maybe one of these (https://www.birdsbesafe.com/)?


i woke up the other morning with a very bad smell in the room. Upon investigation, I found a dead squirrel under the bed which my cat Felix, aka "ninja assasin " had undoubtedly brought in for our mutual enjoyment. The squirrel was not partially eaten, just killed with no obvious injury.

I just ordered these silly clown collars, I let you know if they work. Perhaps the cat will be too embarrassed to hunt, or the local small fauna might die laughing.

As to OP, I think abandoning a cat in the wild at a shelter would be cruel, but when the alternative for captured feral cats is euthanasia perhaps it would be ok. I can argue both sides. I volunteered at our local animal shelter for a short while. They have a huge task in Brevard county and a lot of euthanasia takes place. I stopped volunteering there because I was so depressed. I now volunteer at a people clinic where we don't euthanize. The animals complained less.

MuddyWaters
07-28-2017, 22:59
well............

it all boils down to food storage and all that..........

which, is the hiker's responsibility........


no food---no mice.....
Id suggest ....no food....less mice.
Mice are there anyway, living on their natural food sources
And are particularly adaptable to living in shelters, in fact prefer it I think, regardless of where they might find their food.

illabelle
07-29-2017, 05:48
i woke up the other morning with a very bad smell in the room. Upon investigation, I found a dead squirrel under the bed which my cat Felix, aka "ninja assasin " had undoubtedly brought in for our mutual enjoyment. The squirrel was not partially eaten, just killed with no obvious injury.
I just ordered these silly clown collars, I let you know if they work. Perhaps the cat will be too embarrassed to hunt, or the local small fauna might die laughing.
As to OP, I think abandoning a cat in the wild at a shelter would be cruel, but when the alternative for captured feral cats is euthanasia perhaps it would be ok. I can argue both sides. I volunteered at our local animal shelter for a short while. They have a huge task in Brevard county and a lot of euthanasia takes place. I stopped volunteering there because I was so depressed. I now volunteer at a people clinic where we don't euthanize. The animals complained less.
In my rural neighborhood there's one home that always has a dozen cats hanging out, some of them feral or semi-feral. One of them used to come eat at our house now and then, until animal control came out and trapped him. I'm sure he was put down. I was curious about the issue, so I did a little bit of research. I learned that "experts" recommend a neuter-and-release program instead of euthanasia. Being territorial, the presence of feral cats deters others from moving in, which amounts to a limiting factor in the feral population. Removal and euthanasia just meant a different cat took its place.

Offshore
07-29-2017, 06:28
Bell on the collar? Or maybe one of these (https://www.birdsbesafe.com/)?

Only if wild birds are significantly more afraid of a cat dressed as a creepy clown than of a cat not in costume. Have cats ever been shown to be subject to coulrophobia?

Sarcasm the elf
07-29-2017, 08:19
Have cats ever been shown to be subject to coulrophobia?

That sounds like a question for Schrödinger. :eek:

kestral
07-30-2017, 22:46
In my rural neighborhood there's one home that always has a dozen cats hanging out, some of them feral or semi-feral. One of them used to come eat at our house now and then, until animal control came out and trapped him. I'm sure he was put down. I was curious about the issue, so I did a little bit of research. I learned that "experts" recommend a neuter-and-release program instead of euthanasia. Being territorial, the presence of feral cats deters others from moving in, which amounts to a limiting factor in the feral population. Removal and euthanasia just meant a different cat took its place.

There is a local privately funded program which does neuter and release, they are limited though and most feral cats go to the animal control shelter which is run through a branch of the sheriffs office. The solid colored black cats are statistically least likely to be adopted and are therefore the first to be euthanized... so black cats beware!

kestral
07-30-2017, 22:52
... most feral cats go to the animal control shelter which is run through a branch of the sheriffs office. The solid colored black cats are statistically least likely to be adopted and are therefore the first to be euthanized... so black cats beware!
The sheriffs department is trying to address this worrisome situation.
http://www.brevardsheriff.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/2013BiasedBasedProfiling.pdf