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Elaikases
07-21-2017, 22:54
How much difference is there really between quilt brands that have the same amount of the same down loft?

Trying to get a handle on possible upgrades to my current quilt and that hit me.

The other question I had about quilts had to do with layering them two deep (especially with ultra lightweight nylon) vs. a single heavier quilt.

Dogwood
07-21-2017, 23:20
How much difference is there really between quilt brands that have the same amount of the same down loft?

Possibly quite a bit of difference.

In what regard are you asking this question?

Dogwood
07-21-2017, 23:33
Down loft measurement is but one spec to get some idea of warmth in a quilt. It's a starting point. DO NOT JUST compare inches of down loft making warmth comparisons!!! IMO that is a common misleading quilt myth. because...

Quilts like sleeping bags but possibly more so with quilts are variable in design, construction, etc. and having no official third party equalized temp rating system under uniform conditions. You already mentioned one such difference - fabrics. AND, like sleeping bags but EVEN MORE SO WITH QUILTS quilts are rarely to ever used in the real world as stand alone pieces. Quilts are in fact components most often in a sleep system with the other components also widely variable and possibly profoundly affecting the sleep system.

blw2
07-22-2017, 07:30
........ AND, like sleeping bags but EVEN MORE SO WITH QUILTS quilts are rarely to ever used in the real world as stand alone pieces. Quilts are in fact components most often in a sleep system with the other components also widely variable and possibly profoundly affecting the sleep system.
I'm curious what you mean by this. Do you mean system = quilt + pad
or something more?
I have a BA Kings Canyon quikt for warm weather & like it well enough. It's synthetic and not much fill but that's what I wanted. My only dislike is taht it puts me sleeping directly on my pad. I have yet to find a decent solution for something light weight to use as a bottom sheet. Wondering if that's what you were getting at in terms of "system"....

garlic08
07-22-2017, 08:36
Besides the obvious variable in quality of down, one main factor will be baffling. I like the system in my older EE quilt that lets me move the down in both directions, but it's a little "loose" and I have to arrange it every night I use it.

I've never tried layering quilts, but have thought about it. I think if you add two extra layers of shell fabric between the extra insulation, you're going to lose some of the loft in the lower quilt just from extra weight. Ventilation of the down will be affected, too--the lower quilt may get damper than you'd like. Sorry, no empirical data to back those thoughts up.

Ethesis
07-22-2017, 15:45
I see things like this and then I think my sleeping bag at 32 ounces is probably a lot warmer.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B06ZZ5B4GD/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1500752513&sr=8-2&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=backpacking+quilt+down&dpPl=1&dpID=41Prpd4RPhL&ref=plSrch

egilbe
07-22-2017, 15:49
"sleep system" includes, quilt, sleeping pad, base layers and any other clothing to augment your "system". Can stretch a warm weather quilt a few more degrees by wearing a hooded puffy, hat, mittens, rain pants, etc. It's actually an ultra light technique to get more use from items that are normally carried, but not often worn when hiking.

Your system needs to be balanced. Can't use a winter quilt or sleeping bag with a Summer pad, for instance. You will freeze regardless.

Ethesis
07-22-2017, 15:50
And I doubt that this is really ready for 15 degrees F.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01NACUVNQ/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1500752513&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=backpacking+quilt+down&dpPl=1&dpID=517Omcet0ZL&ref=plSrch


though I loved the reviewer for this one who just said pay a tiny bit more and get custom

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/cr/B018R02TTE/ref=mw_dp_cr

egilbe
07-22-2017, 15:55
Compare the total weight to one of EE's quilts, for instance. More like a 30 degree quilt.

Ethesis
07-22-2017, 16:23
Compare the total weight to one of EE's quilts, for instance. More like a 30 degree quilt.
Exactly. Which is why the one reviewer said you should really just buy EE.

That made me smile.

Dogwood
07-22-2017, 19:17
Too many generalized questionable of dubious origins quilt reviews regarding warmth, warmth to wt ratios, wt, volume, cost etc metrics that ignore mentioning specific conditions under which they are being offered relying too extensively on loft measurements as the main means of determining warmth metrics. Very often these determinations are more quilt marketing than individual reality. Some(many?) quilt proponents will quickly write it all off to a quilt fiddle factor. For example, in the link that Ethesis provided regarding the so called quilt that was good down to 15* F or as the advertisement states:

►WARM - Stay toasty warm due to the large baffled construction and 22 oz. of high loft 700-fill power down which provides an excellent temperature rating down to 15F (-10C),

What does that mean;how is it being rated down to 15* F? If it is accomplished by substituting with a wider, longer, higher R Value, perhaps likely heavier wt, added $ cost, and more voluminous pad than that isn't the quilt that should be rated down to 15*! It is actually the overall sleep system that is being misleadingly referred to. And, therefore the ultimate wt, bulk, and $ cost of the total sleep system is different than just looking at the quilt. As another example, if I have to bring a separate jacket or down hood to sleep in that I normally would not or will not wear while hiking than perhaps the wt, $$$ cost, and bit of volume should be added to the total ultimate sleep system? Hmm, that makes a sleep system with a quilt as the major component perhaps not so $ cheap, light wt, or less voluminous as advertised? There is no doubt in my mind there are more things to think about using a quilt depending on what my goals are and in context of those goals similarly lining up as quilt sellers and reviewers commonly advertise. And, I'm excluding the warm/cold/neutral sleeper, different people have different metabolisms, etc factors. I'm referring to the gear - the sleep system and quilts.


Too many misleading assertions with the quilt grandstanding crowd(I'm a quilt user and sleeping bag user) offering opinions like "there is no insulating or warmth holding ability of the pie shaped removed part of a sleeping bag or crushed down in the insulation under you." That's been said so many times it's taken for granted as true. I rah rah my gear and as said I use quilts too. First, it's not just down under you in a sleeping bag but fabrics, often with some sort of treatment like a DWR, baffle materials, offering enclosure. If this was true than a 30* quilt wouldn't have to be amended or fiddled with so much to get the same warmth as an accurately rated higher end accurately temp rated sleeping bag given everything being similarly equal. Is it just me or have others noticed the paucity of quilt reviews and quilt advertising where the quilt was regularly slept in at or slightly below its temp rating especially in quilts rated 30* F or lower or leaving out under what conditions, gear set up, etc it was accomplished?

Dogwood
07-22-2017, 19:30
"sleep system" includes, quilt, sleeping pad, base layers and any other clothing to augment your "system". Can stretch a warm weather quilt a few more degrees by wearing a hooded puffy, hat, mittens, rain pants, etc. It's actually an ultra light technique to get more use from items that are normally carried, but not often worn when hiking...

I go so far to to include considering shelter selection or if no shelter us used in the sleep system making the two have multiple/crossover uses. For example, hanging, if the hammock is totally enclosed like Dutch's new Chameleon with top cover(for winter), cowboy camping, cowboy camping in the corner of an AT lean to, zipped up inside a totally enclosed double or single wall tent, cross over tent having 1 and 2 wall elements, using a stand alone or WR bivy, true tarping/tarp config( A frame verse something like a MLD SoloMid), etc All these different set up scenarios just considering the gear not even skills can add to or decrease sleep system characteristics like warmth.

Choice of ground cloth or if any is used plays a role in the sleep system.

Venchka
07-22-2017, 20:27
Here's the deal. Personally, my body can't quite reach the numbers in the lower temperature range. I can get close. I'm off by about 5 degrees. For all you fill power and treatment folks, "It just doesn't matter."
https://backpackinglight.com/bpl_sleeping_bag_position_statement/
Also, Western Mountaineering measures loft at the lowest point. Roughly mid-shin.
Wayne


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Venchka
07-22-2017, 20:29
Yes. A real double wall or windproof single wall tent makes a real difference.
Wayne


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Busky2
07-22-2017, 21:10
When I tent or use a shelter I use a bag for late Fall, Winter and early Spring then switch to my quilt for May thru Sept/early Oct. I use the same pad year round. And if it is really, really cold, like around 0* I bag and quilt, looks funny but my butt stays warm.

Montbell #3 bag, Sea to Summit Ember quilt, NeoAir Xlite pad

Elaikases
07-22-2017, 23:53
Too many generalized questionable of dubious origins quilt reviews regarding warmth, warmth to wt ratios, wt, volume, cost etc metrics that ignore mentioning specific conditions under which they are being offered relying too extensively on loft measurements as the main means of determining warmth metrics. Very often these determinations are more quilt marketing than individual reality. Some(many?) quilt proponents will quickly write it all off to a quilt fiddle factor. For example, in the link that Ethesis provided regarding the so called quilt that was good down to 15* F or as the advertisement states:

►WARM - Stay toasty warm due to the large baffled construction and 22 oz. of high loft 700-fill power down which provides an excellent temperature rating down to 15F (-10C),

What does that mean;how is it being rated down to 15* F? If it is accomplished by substituting with a wider, longer, higher R Value, perhaps likely heavier wt, added $ cost, and more voluminous pad than that isn't the quilt that should be rated down to 15*! It is actually the overall sleep system that is being misleadingly referred to. And, therefore the ultimate wt, bulk, and $ cost of the total sleep system is different than just looking at the quilt. As another example, if I have to bring a separate jacket or down hood to sleep in that I normally would not or will not wear while hiking than perhaps the wt, $$$ cost, and bit of volume should be added to the total ultimate sleep system? Hmm, that makes a sleep system with a quilt as the major component perhaps not so $ cheap, light wt, or less voluminous as advertised? There is no doubt in my mind there are more things to think about using a quilt depending on what my goals are and in context of those goals similarly lining up as quilt sellers and reviewers commonly advertise. And, I'm excluding the warm/cold/neutral sleeper, different people have different metabolisms, etc factors. I'm referring to the gear - the sleep system and quilts.


Too many misleading assertions with the quilt grandstanding crowd(I'm a quilt user and sleeping bag user) offering opinions like "there is no insulating or warmth holding ability of the pie shaped removed part of a sleeping bag or crushed down in the insulation under you." That's been said so many times it's taken for granted as true. I rah rah my gear and as said I use quilts too. First, it's not just down under you in a sleeping bag but fabrics, often with some sort of treatment like a DWR, baffle materials, offering enclosure. If this was true than a 30* quilt wouldn't have to be amended or fiddled with so much to get the same warmth as an accurately rated higher end accurately temp rated sleeping bag given everything being similarly equal. Is it just me or have others noticed the paucity of quilt reviews and quilt advertising where the quilt was regularly slept in at or slightly below its temp rating especially in quilts rated 30* F or lower or leaving out under what conditions, gear set up, etc it was accomplished?

Exactly why I so want a better review system for quilts.

I see excellent comparisons, etc. with bags. But with quilts? Not so much. It is like wandering into a disco and trying to evaluate the quality of the food next door to read some reviews.

Elaikases
07-22-2017, 23:55
Here's the deal. Personally, my body can't quite reach the numbers in the lower temperature range. I can get close. I'm off by about 5 degrees. For all you fill power and treatment folks, "It just doesn't matter."
https://backpackinglight.com/bpl_sleeping_bag_position_statement/
Also, Western Mountaineering measures loft at the lowest point. Roughly mid-shin.
Wayne


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the link:

Note that the loft figures in Table 1 are for single-layer loft. This is the thickness of the insulation on top of the sleeper; any insulation under the sleeper is ignored. Also, bear in mind that in addition to the physiological factors mentioned above, construction details of the bag, as well as environmental conditions can influence the warmth of a bag tremendously. Don’t expect to sleep out comfortably in your 3.5-inch thick drafty quilt in a sub-zero blizzard atop Mt. Rainier after a day of climbing 7000 feet and consuming 1000 calories of dehydrated goop, just because Table 1 says it should be warm at -10 degrees! Use this table only as a starting point to determine the warmth of your sleep system. Experiment under safe conditions to find out what works for you.

garlic08
07-23-2017, 07:44
Of course, another variable is the way you sleep. A tosser-and-turner would not appreciate a quilt at all.

I guess the last sentence in the post above pretty much sums it up (for all things ever made in history--and what we used to do before there was an internet).

egilbe
07-23-2017, 07:50
I toss and turn and love my quilts. The reason I love my quilts is because I toss and turn. I found mummy bags too restrictive, except in deep Winter, for some reason. I have an Eddie Baueur -30 bag and its pretty roomy.

Busky2
07-23-2017, 07:53
[QUOTE=garlic08;2161025]Of course, another variable is the way you sleep. A tosser-and-turner would not appreciate a quilt at all.

As a toss and turner I like the quilt better because I can spin under that thing with out having a compressed spot exposed on one side or the other allowing a cold area to happen. The quilt just does not get compressed when I spin.

Dogwood
07-23-2017, 09:20
I toss and turn and love my quilts. The reason I love my quilts is because I toss and turn. I found mummy bags too restrictive, except in deep Winter, for some reason. I have an Eddie Baueur -30 bag and its pretty roomy.

Finding a sleeping bag too restrictive, or for that matter a pad attached quilt, which from observations and personal use is often how non hangers use non zippered quilts(?), can be a result of inappropriate specking out/matching product measurements, taper, etc in relation to one's body, how one sleeps(rotisserie, side to side, mummy coffin like on back, stomach), etc. That's why sleeping bag companies make different sized bags and why quilt companies do likewise. And, as had been said by sleeping bag companies umpteen times if you sleep a certain way (fetal position, etc) there are bags made specifically for you MB Stretch, Nemo bags, BA larger girt/hip/footbox sizes, longer lengths, etc.

For those rotisserie sleepers enjoying quilts I assume you're quilt width/girth is wide enough appropriate for your sleep habits, pad maybe is wider if you shift around a lot, pad attachment system (if you're combining your quilt with a pad) is sufficient and maintained in cold weather, or you're not so concerned about drafts because you quilt inside a closed shelter or tweak with a liner, bivy, dedicated sleep clothing(jacket, pants).I'd like to see more happy rotisserie sleepers using quilts sharing more specifics about their sleep system and conditions on how they eliminate drafts.


I think Joe Valence at ZP sums it up on opting for a quilt w/ individually appropriate body measurmenst:


The dimensions of the bag are measured with it opened up, stretched tight, from one edge to the other. If you already have a bag to compare, measure the same way.

To measure your body use a string or cloth tape measure around the thickest part of your chest including your arms. Add 8" or more for wiggle room. If you like extra wiggle room size up in width!
Length:

We have found that a hoodless sleeping bag works best if you can pull it up around your ears on cold nights or bundle it up around your neck to seal out drafts. You'll want to sleep in a warm hat, your jacket hood, and/or a Goose Down Hood (http://www.zpacks.com/accessories/goosehood.shtml) in extreme cold.

The length of our sleeping bags is the same as always (medium is still medium and so on), but now our sizing chart indicates which length will come to the ears of the wearer, rather than to the neck. The listed length of the bag should cover the ears of a person that height. The length factors in space for your feet, length to come around your body girth, and around the shoulders.

Maybe I missed it but where are these important details in making quilts work well in that supposed 15* Amazon quilt offered in Etheses's link? https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01NA...0ZL&ref=plSrch (https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01NACUVNQ/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1500752513&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=backpacking+quilt+down&dpPl=1&dpID=517Omcet0ZL&ref=plSrch) Aren't these factors in how well one sleeps in a quilt? They sure do in sleeping bags. If we get a sleeping bag excessively too big we may have a harder time body warming all that extra air space, no? Get a sleeping bag too narrow in girth/hips/feetand we can feel like we're trying to squeeze ourselves back into a toothpaste tube.

Dogwood
07-23-2017, 09:21
Joe Valesco

egilbe
07-23-2017, 09:48
On cold nights, below the rating, I wear my hooded down puffy with my wool beanie. There is a draw cord that cinches around the neck. I use the pad straps and buckle system. Buckles are a bit on top, so the edge of the quilt is snug against my sides. Its a wide quilt so any gaps are filled in by loft of the insulation. It works surprisingly well. Its roomy, its warm, I have no complaints.

On our double quilt, it works the same way, but I have a furnace sleeping next to me to keep me warm. She compains shes cold while at the same time putting out 50,000 BTU's. I don't understand it. The only time I was close to sleeping cold with her, was when we camped at Perkins Notch one windy late November and it snowed during the night. We were still using our tarp so the ventilation was a bit too much. Thats just one example where shelter and site selection has a large effect in temp ratings.

Dogwood
07-23-2017, 10:24
Thx Egilbe. Good you mentioned one of the benefits of a double quilt. Does your wife/ Gf have similar sleep habits as you? I could see that double quilt use being a problem if both of you roll side to side sleep all night , if the quilt is not wide enough or attached well enough to you? double pad? What was your tarp and tarp config? How often do you sleep at your single and double quilts lowest temp rating?

BuckeyeBill
07-23-2017, 10:39
I am a hammock user and i have a Warbonnet Blackbird XLC. With it I use a Warbonnet Mamba 20* Top quilt. In the summer time I still use the Mamba, but switch out to a 20* 3/4 length Warbonnet Yeti. In cold weather I use the Warbonnet 20* full length Wokki which was designed specifically for the Blackbird hammock. I also use the Mamba when I am using my Tarptent Notch. I am very happy when I switched to quilts as they have served me well.

egilbe
07-23-2017, 12:05
Thx Egilbe. Good you mentioned one of the benefits of a double quilt. Does your wife/ Gf have similar sleep habits as you? I could see that double quilt use being a problem if both of you roll side to side sleep all night , if the quilt is not wide enough or attached well enough to you? double pad? What was your tarp and tarp config? How often do you sleep at your single and double quilts lowest temp rating?
Exped synmat hyperlight duo, 20* EE Accomplice, SMD Haven tarp with the inner bugnet. Tarp was as low to the ground as I could get it. We both roll over quite a bit and snuggle against each other. In almost everything we are polar opposites, but we sleep well together and have similar hiking speeds. Can't ask for a better hiking partner.

Single quilt is a 30* EE Prodigy wide long. Works well with my S2S comfortlight insulated mat. More of a Summer quilt. Never been cold, but in three years, only used it a few times when the gf couldnt go hiking with me. I carry it for day hikes in the Winter, but never needed to use it. Hopefully, never will.

Dogwood
07-23-2017, 18:27
Single quilt is a 30* EE Prodigy wide long. Works well with my S2S comfortlight insulated mat. More of a Summer quilt. Never been cold, but in three years, only used it a few times when the gf couldnt go hiking with me. I carry it for day hikes in the Winter, but never needed to use it. Hopefully, never will.

Down to 30* or perhaps upper 20's how often? This is using a tarp too?

egilbe
07-23-2017, 18:46
Same tarp, high 30's, low 40's.

fastfoxengineering
07-24-2017, 00:14
Quilts are great. I prefer the toasty goodness of a zipped up bag/hybrid quilt though. Less fuss. Trap in that precious thruhiker funk body heat.

If your gonna buy a quilt. Get it from a reputable manufacturer. Test it out.

Don't by a 20* quilt and go out in the woods in 20* weather right off the bat. You'll probably freeze your butt off.

There's a learning curve. I've found with quilts I need to always go real wide to block drafts and such. At that point an extra few ounces to zip it up in the cold is worth it to me.

But don't listen to me. I'm a wimp in the cold.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Miner
07-24-2017, 01:24
Until last year, I was using the original 2008 Golite Ultra 20F quilt which some thought the loft was a bit lacking for a 20F quilt which may explain why Golite made the quilt heavier in later years. It also would be considered a narrow width with the way EE and others size their quilts today. I used it on the PCT with Gossamer Gear's Torso Pad + their 1/8" Thinpad as my sleeping pad and a MLD superbiy with temperatures down to 17F and never felt cold. Since then used it numerous times around 20F without issues. But I admit to sleeping warm as I've successfully stretched my 40F quilt down into the 20's successfully when got in unexpected cold weather.
I've used it with and without a bivy and never felt drafts were much of a problem. Though when its cold, I tend to use the bivy which tends to removes most peoples draft issues who have bad sleeping habbits. Even when I didn't use the bivy, I early on had trained myself to automatically retuck it under my body when I flipped over to the other side while half asleep. Unlike many, I quickly realized that I despised quilt straps as I found bringing the pad into the quilt just creates extra empty space making things colder. I much preferred tucking it under my body which is also likely why I found using a narrower size adequate.

After tearing a baffle last year, I finally replaced it with a 950 fill EE quilt which is warmer than my 800 fill Golite ever was. I went with the regular width which is wider than my old GoLite quilt, but I don't see the benefit of it with the way I use it.

Ethesis
07-24-2017, 07:10
Quilts are great. I prefer the toasty goodness of a zipped up bag/hybrid quilt though. Less fuss. Trap in that precious thruhiker funk body heat.

If your gonna buy a quilt. Get it from a reputable manufacturer. Test it out.

Don't by a 20* quilt and go out in the woods in 20* weather right off the bat. You'll probably freeze your butt off.

There's a learning curve. I've found with quilts I need to always go real wide to block drafts and such. At that point an extra few ounces to zip it up in the cold is worth it to me.

But don't listen to me. I'm a wimp in the cold.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


I am just wishing for easier ways to test things.

Though I have thought next of using my down mummy bag as a quilt since it unzips.

I just don't want my wife to end up under geared.

Ethesis
07-24-2017, 07:11
And Miner -- thanks. You encapsulated a lot of what I was thinking.

That helped.