Using free standing tent in the Whites

[Sidetrail]

I'm a thru hiker currently in MA with a Zpacks Duplex tent. A friend of mine from NH told me I was going to have trouble using the tent in the White mountains on their tent pads because it's not free standing. I know Zpacks sells the poles to make it free standing but I don't really want to spend $125 or carry them. Anybody know if this is really an issue?

[Old Hiker]

I have a LightHeart gear SoLong 6 - non-freestanding and did just fine. The platforms have gaps wide enough for your stakes or to loop your guy lines around them to keep the tent up.

I also had extra line to run a stake from the ground up through the crack to the tent.

A little ingenuity and initiative will work. Just try to get there BEFORE dark !!

[Mountain Wildman]

http://ace.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pACE3-4027354enh-z7.jpg

I've read that some have used little hooks like this to screw into the wood platform and attached tent guy lines to the hook.

[KDogg]

I had the same worries last year but you will be fine. I used a duplex in the whites with no trouble. Each of the platforms generally hold two tents and have gaps in the slats. Put your stakes underneath them with the guy line between the slats. That will take care of the corners and one side. On the other side use rocks that you will find at each platform. Put the stake under the rock and tighten your guy line. Use several rocks if they are available. You can also tie off to the other tent if possible.

[Traveler]

http://ace.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pACE3-4027354enh-z7.jpg

I've read that some have used little hooks like this to screw into the wood platform and attached tent guy lines to the hook.

Poor form to use these. Please do NOT use screws or nails in these platforms. They can tear up the platform, creating split wood and splinters that snag light fabric and tear it not to mention tearing up feet and hands. There are a few different ways one can secure things to a platform that do not include damaging mechanical devices.

[Bansko]

You can always stealth camp if you're not into platforms, being corralled, etc.

[garlic08]

I camped only once on a wood platform on my AT thru and there were a few screw anchors on the edges. Stakes dropped sideways through the gaps worked for the rest. My Tarptent Contrail only needs four stakes so that may have helped. If that hadn't worked, I had enough time left in the day to go find a stealth site, which is what I did the rest of the nights in the Whites.

[One Half]

You can always stealth camp if you're not into platforms, being corralled, etc.

Many places in the Whites do not allow stealth camping and it's actual a violation of 16 USC 551.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5363715.pdf

[Slo-go'en]

You can always stealth camp if you're not into platforms, being corralled, etc.

No you can't. Please do not do this and only use designated sites. Tent platforms are provide for a reason and it took a lot of work to get them there.

I carry half a dozen 1.5" long roofing nails (these have a large head) and tap them lightly into the wood platform planks. In the morning I pull them out with a tent stake. It doesn't damage the wood.

[HooKooDooKu]

I carry half a dozen 1.5" long roofing nails (these have a large head) and tap them lightly into the wood platform planks. In the morning I pull them out with a tent stake. It doesn't damage the wood.
How does inserting nails into wood NOT damage the wood?

[rickb]

Many places in the Whites do not allow stealth camping and it's actual a violation of 16 USC 551.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5363715.pdf

You are 100% correct, of course.

That said, that particular brochure is flawed in that on a casual raeding it conflates recommended LNT practices, with the summaries of the "Supervisor's Orders" which have the force of law.

Why is this important?

It may not be for most, given the actual Supervisor's Orders are many, and the practical considerations of camping in the Whites can make the designated sites VERY attractive.

On the other hand, if you pass a fellow hiker who has pitched his tent below treeline and well away from a man-made structure or road which is outside of a Wilderness area, don't be too quick to assume he is camping illegally-- even if his camp is just a few feet from the Trail.

In point of fact, there are a whole bunch a places along the AT where you can camp off-trail legally, just as there are plenty you can't -- or wouldn't want to even if you could.

[Dogwood]

http://ace.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pACE3-4027354enh-z7.jpg

I've read that some have used little hooks like this to screw into the wood platform and attached tent guy lines to the hook.


Poor form to use these. Please do NOT use screws or nails in these platforms. They can tear up the platform, creating split wood and splinters that snag light fabric and tear it not to mention tearing up feet and hands. There are a few different ways one can secure things to a platform that do not include damaging mechanical devices.
Yup. Besides it's currently an in fashion offensive symbol that denotes....??? :D

Might be a good idea to have some extra length guyout cord.

[Dogwood]

Have you ever been in the situation where it was difficult to retrieve tent stakes from under wooden platforms? At $2-3 a Ti stake, which is what some of mine cost, losing them and having to reorder missing ones starts adding up.

[rafe]

I can report a great "stealth" spot at Garfield Pond. Or not so stealthy, since it is obviously well-used, and there are spaces for several tents. You really can't miss it. I stayed there along with six or eight others. There were at least five or six tents set up. Quite nice, actually.

Heretofore I've been mostly of the opinion that stealth spots are next-to-impossible to find in that neighborhood. So this was a surprise.

It's possible that the relevant authorities are simply tolerating this scenario, but not likely that they'd have missed it.

[saltysack]

Have you ever been in the situation where it was difficult to retrieve tent stakes from under wooden platforms? At $2-3 a Ti stake, which is what some of mine cost, losing them and having to reorder missing ones starts adding up.

Yep...I've used chop sticks for this on a dock...multi purpose I suppose....can also eat with them and use as fire wood....[emoji51]


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[Don H]

Suggest you carry a length of string for each tie out on your tent. You can use your pegs or sticks jammed between the boards for anchor points. That's what I did with my SMD Solo. Just takes a few minutes extra to figure out how to rig it.

Also I did see a few platforms with nails or hooks in the sides.

[eblanche]

here are a few good pics showing my cricket tarp on a platform at osgood tentsite north of madison:
<a href="https://ibb.co/bOsnVQ"><img src="https://thumb.ibb.co/bOsnVQ/IMAG3032.jpg" alt="IMAG3032" border="0"></a> <a href="https://ibb.co/eM6EAQ"><img src="https://thumb.ibb.co/eM6EAQ/IMAG3033.jpg" alt="IMAG3033" border="0"></a> <a href="https://ibb.co/kBdSVQ"><img src="https://thumb.ibb.co/kBdSVQ/IMAG3034.jpg" alt="IMAG3034" border="0"></a>

doable with some ingenuity. Care ful with your titanium stakes with the platforms though as previously mentioned.

[eblanche]

here are a few good pics showing my cricket tarp on a platform at osgood tentsite north of madison:
<a href="https://ibb.co/bOsnVQ"><img src="https://thumb.ibb.co/bOsnVQ/IMAG3032.jpg" alt="IMAG3032" border="0"></a> <a href="https://ibb.co/eM6EAQ"><img src="https://thumb.ibb.co/eM6EAQ/IMAG3033.jpg" alt="IMAG3033" border="0"></a> <a href="https://ibb.co/kBdSVQ"><img src="https://thumb.ibb.co/kBdSVQ/IMAG3034.jpg" alt="IMAG3034" border="0"></a>

doable with some ingenuity. Care ful with your titanium stakes with the platforms though as previously mentioned.
https://thumb.ibb.co/bOsnVQ/IMAG3032.jpg (https://ibb.co/bOsnVQ) https://thumb.ibb.co/eM6EAQ/IMAG3033.jpg (https://ibb.co/eM6EAQ) https://thumb.ibb.co/kBdSVQ/IMAG3034.jpg (https://ibb.co/kBdSVQ)

can't seem to edit my post...

[Sarcasm the elf]

How does inserting nails into wood NOT damage the wood?

Presumably magic.

[Heliotrope]

Presumably magic.

Trail magic to be precise. ;)


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[scrabbler]

First world problems. Good luck.

[garlic08]

First world problems. Good luck.

Hah! That pretty much describes every question on this forum.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Hah! That pretty much describes every question on this forum.

Given that we live in the first world, I don't see the issue. :cool:

[egilbe]

Also Osgood tentsite

39956

[garlic08]

Given that we live in the first world, I don't see the issue. :cool:

I will be using that line. Good comeback.

[Bansko]

Many places in the Whites do not allow stealth camping and it's actual a violation of 16 USC 551.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5363715.pdf (https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5363715.pdf)

A violation of 16 USC 551, you don't say? I suppose I should retroactively make a citiizen's arrest of myself. Multiple counts.

[Slo-go'en]

A violation of 16 USC 551, you don't say? I suppose I should retroactively make a citiizen's arrest of myself. Multiple counts.

I take it your okay with tourists visiting your island who feel that local regulations and rules don't apply to them either?

[rickb]

A violation of 16 USC 551, you don't say? I suppose I should retroactively make a citiizen's arrest of myself. Multiple counts.
Are you sure you were camping illegally all those times?

[Bansko]

I take it your okay with tourists visiting your island who feel that local regulations and rules don't apply to them either?

I'm just here for a few years, but I can assure you that I obey the local laws far better than the locals do.

[Bansko]

I may have once or twice, but I always tried to keep things subtle and far off trail, even if I had to keep hiking with my headlamp on for hours on end.

[williamgymnst]

As there is pretty clearly some debate on the issue of stealth camping in the Whites, does anyone have any good suggestions of sites, established or stealth, between Adams and Eisenhower? Preferably around either Jefferson or Monroe. The huts are also a little pricey for me, so trying to avoid a night in Lake of the Clouds

[Slo-go'en]

As there is pretty clearly some debate on the issue of stealth camping in the Whites, does anyone have any good suggestions of sites, established or stealth, between Adams and Eisenhower? Preferably around either Jefferson or Monroe. The huts are also a little pricey for me, so trying to avoid a night in Lake of the Clouds

Sorry no, that is all above tree line and strictly forbidden. Going off trail onto the tundra to camp compresses the very thin soil and kills the rare and endangered plants that struggle to live up there. PLEASE follow the law and DO NOT ILLEGALLY CAMP ABOVE TREE LINE!!!!!!! There is also an issue with exposure. Should a thunderstorm like we had last night hit you while up there, you would likely die.

If you can afford to travel to NH to hike the Whites, you can afford to spend a night a lake of the clouds. There is no other option other then to hike the whole ridge line at least to one of the RMC camps (which also cost money, but a lot less expensive then the AMC huts).

Someone will likely say you can drop a couple 1000 feet off the side the mountain and camp along one of the side trails, but that really is not a practical option.

[Deacon]

Not sure this will help, but I noticed during my recent section, that there are many good stealth spots just below treeline. I don't remember on which Mountains, but they're there.

There's no water near them though, so you would need water.

[williamgymnst]

Thanks for the insight. I wasn't planning on camping above the treeline. I do appreciate your thoughts on the hut. I'm still in the mode of collecting options. Even options 1000ish feet down-ridge. I've heard of possibilities off of Six Husbands, Sphinx, or on the high side of Great Gulf. Does anyone have any experience in this area. Is it worth it to loss the elevation?

[peakbagger]

As there is pretty clearly some debate on the issue of stealth camping in the Whites, does anyone have any good suggestions of sites, established or stealth, between Adams and Eisenhower? Preferably around either Jefferson or Monroe. The huts are also a little pricey for me, so trying to avoid a night in Lake of the Clouds

Standard legal sites (they aren't stealth as they are legal) are pretty limited to the Jewell Trail site (not on any map) which is about 1000 feet down off the trail and one mile walking. It has one wide spot off the trail and a lot of sort of flat spots under the softwood canopy. Not very good for hammocking as the trees aren't tall enough. In bad weather it is in very exposed location despite tree cover, I would not want to be there on a stormy night with lightning. Its a popular spot for dayhikers to use for a toilet so watch your step! There is usually water crossing the trail before treeline or if you are worried there is a spring on the Gulfside trail (the AT) just south of the north end of the Mt Clay loop. This is the normal legal alternative to LOC. The other legal site is on Edmunds Path just north of Eisenhower. It too is about 1000 feet elevation and 1 mile off the AT. It too is not marked on a map Look for a small rock wall crossing the trail and look into the woods on your left. There are no readily accessible legal stealth campsites. There no legal stealth sites that I am aware of on the east side of the ridge from Mt Clinton to where you head back below treeline on the Osgood trail. There is space for two small tents at best just below treeline on the Osgood trail. This spot is completely dry and the closest water is way back at Madison Hut. Many folks do stealth on the Sphinx trail. There are several spots but they are all above treeline. Once below tree line there is nothing legal When bad weather comes through this spot can be ground zero. The Ammonusuc Ravine trail has no good spots unless you way down almost to the base of the mountain and its a no camping area anyhow. There is nothing safe or legal near Jefferson. In all cases you loose a lot of elevation. The RMC Perch campsite is off the side of Adams, its $10 a night.

Every thruhiker is different but many Northbounders campout in the woods between the summit of Clinton and Eisenhower. The woods are thick but there are open ledge sections that may be hard but somewhat flat and there is water source near where the trail heads up out of the woods (treat it as it has a lot of hiker traffic). They then go north to the Jewell Trail site or stretch to RMC perch. Next day head over and down to Osgood tentsite

[Slo-go'en]

Keep in mind that the sites Peakbagger mentions are not very big and there is a good chance someone else will beat you to the site during the busy season (June through October) and if you get there and there is no more room, your basically screwed.

[Slo-go'en]

There is a another way to break up the Presidential traverse by using the Auto Road hiker shuttle. For $20 at 9 AM, you can get a ride to the top of Mt Washington. From there you can hike north over to one of the RMC camps for one night, then down to the Osgood tent site or back to Pinkham notch. Then take the shuttle back up to Washington and hike south out to Crawford Notch, then take the AMC shuttle back to Pinkham.

[peakbagger]

I have checked out the Jewel and Edmunds locations, they will hold quite lot of folks but not particularly comfortably, they are just somewhat flat areas under tree canopy without a lot of understory. The one on the Osgood below treeline is at best 12 by 12 with no room to expand. The Perch caretaker always seems to deal with the "no room at the inn" issue (I have no idea how). The good spots between Eisenhower and Pierce seem to fill up quick and then folks squeeze in where they can, or just wait until late and camp up above the official treeline on the ledges. As long as its below treeline a hiker can legally camp literally in the middle of the trail unless it specifically prohibited.

[Slo-go'en]

The Perch caretaker always seems to deal with the "no room at the inn" issue (I have no idea how).

There are a couple of options. They can hike over to Gray Knob which is last to fill up, or they can go over to the Log Cabin. Both are about 1.5 miles away, but Gray Knob is better, as your still near tree line. It's a long, steep climb back to the AT from the Log Cabin.

BTW, the tent platforms at the Perch will be out of commission for a few days to a week sometime in Sept while we rebuild them. I'm on the crew doing the work.

[saltysack]

There are a couple of options. They can hike over to Gray Knob which is last to fill up, or they can go over to the Log Cabin. Both are about 1.5 miles away, but Gray Knob is better, as your still near tree line. It's a long, steep climb back to the AT from the Log Cabin.

BTW, the tent platforms at the Perch will be out of commission for a few days to a week sometime in Sept while we rebuild them. I'm on the crew doing the work.

Have y'all thought about installing attachment points so folks don't screw there own it platforms? Maybe a few small ones bolted down so they don't grow legs? Just a thought...


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[DownEaster]

So, if you're still looking at what tent to buy for the AT, this is something to consider. A tent doesn't have to be completely free-standing if you can get by with just guy lines that extend past the platforms. A design that relies on poles pegged into the ground, however, would be problematic. That's too bad; I thought the Sierra Designs Flashlight 2 FL looked pretty spiffy.

[Zea]

You'll easily figure out a way to set your tent up. A couple tricks I've used are to tie guylines to rocks, put rocks on the guylines if they're too short to tie, or extend guylines with shoelaces or bear bag line and wrap around platform edges or hooks/screws if there are any. Once you're out in the woods with nothing but a tent and a platform, you'll find a way to make it work. It just might take an extra 5 or 10 minutes.

[Engine]

We had no trouble using our Triplex on the platforms. After fiddling with it the first time, we quickly developed a system which worked just fine.

[saltysack]

We had no trouble using our Triplex on the platforms. After fiddling with it the first time, we quickly developed a system which worked just fine.

Y'all still out?


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[Engine]

Y'all still out?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNope, summited August 18th. Now hanging out with our daughter in Oklahoma. I'll be updating the trail journal this afternoon.

Time of our lives!!!

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[williamgymnst]

Thanks for a lot of great insight, everyone. Particularly the info concerning small sites that aren't on the maps. Super helpful! One last question. Lake of the Clouds will be closed during my time on the range, and I am spending my first night at Valley Way. This being the case, would it be easier to loose the 1000ft and regain the next day or try to go from Valley Way to Nauman in one day?

[peakbagger]

You just tripped my alarm bell. If LOC is closed you potentially are in winter conditions hauling a lot more gear. Valley Way to Nauman is a really long day especially in winter conditions. I would expect you don't have a choice but to break it into two days and hope for a good weather stretch. Be aware you could be camping in below freezing conditions.

[williamgymnst]

You just tripped my alarm bell. If LOC is closed you potentially are in winter conditions hauling a lot more gear. Valley Way to Nauman is a really long day especially in winter conditions. I would expect you don't have a choice but to break it into two days and hope for a good weather stretch. Be aware you could be camping in below freezing conditions.

I'm going the first week of Oct. It's been a while since I looked at the hut schedules, but I think this is only a few days after LOC closing. The historical weather I've found for these dates shows 30s-40s during the day and anywhere from 15-25 at night. Does this sound about right?

[peakbagger]

The temps are pretty good but what needs to be factored in is wind chill. 30 MPH in the clouds is nasty stuff and occasionally winds can go over 100. It perfect hypothermia conditions There is usually a snow dusting or icing event after October 1st, it usually melts quick. Annoyingly pick your weather and it can be real nice conditions during the day so you end up hauling a lot of extra gear but catch it wrong and we will be reading about the rescue. At night it gets cold and day light is short so you end up spending more time in the dark and once your core is chilled its b*tch getting warm again.

By the way the NH F&G who runs the rescues in the area would most likely a define a solo overnight trip like this as "reckless" that means you pay for the rescue even if you buy the hike safe card. Folks do it all the time and most of the time they make it without rescue but given your location on your signature you just may not have the skills or hit the weather right.

[williamgymnst]

The temps are pretty good but what needs to be factored in is wind chill. 30 MPH in the clouds is nasty stuff and occasionally winds can go over 100. It perfect hypothermia conditions There is usually a snow dusting or icing event after October 1st, it usually melts quick. Annoyingly pick your weather and it can be real nice conditions during the day so you end up hauling a lot of extra gear but catch it wrong and we will be reading about the rescue. At night it gets cold and day light is short so you end up spending more time in the dark and once your core is chilled its b*tch getting warm again.

By the way the NH F&G who runs the rescues in the area would most likely a define a solo overnight trip like this as "reckless" that means you pay for the rescue even if you buy the hike safe card. Folks do it all the time and most of the time they make it without rescue but given your location on your signature you just may not have the skills or hit the weather right.

You would be correct about my location. I have quite a bit of experience hiking, but mostly in the Smokies and southern Appalachians. I have lived in the NE, so I know what conditions can be like. Although, I was not into hiking at the time, so I've never put the two together. I've been reading, researching and map-reading extensively. I've got good bail-outs planned. I am also considering shortening the traverse to two days and finding something to do around Crawford Notch for a day.

While I know one can never mitigate all risks and there's no way to know what the weather will do during the day at this point, how protected are sites like Valley Way, Perch, and Nauman?

[egilbe]

Valley Way and Nauman are well below treeline. They are fairly well protected. The Perch is on the edge of a ravine. Its pretty exposed. I'm surprised the windows are blown out of the camp every winter.

[Slo-go'en]

Valley Way and Nauman are well below treeline. They are fairly well protected. The Perch is on the edge of a ravine. Its pretty exposed. I'm surprised the windows are blown out of the camp every winter.

Your thinking of Crag Camp, which sits on the edge of King Ravine. A rather stunning view from the front porch towards Madison and the King Ravine.

First week of October can go either way. It can be really, really nice or life threating. And it can go from one to the other in a matter of hours, some times minutes. You really have to make the call at the time and not go just because that's the time you have to do it no matter what.

By the first week of October we have lost a significant amount of daylight hours, which complicates things. Rather then attempting a traverse of the range which is complicated due to the lack of good camping options, there are other things to do. One is to just hike up to one of the RMC camps and spend a few days. Day hiking Madison, Adams and Jefferson using Crag or Gray knob as a "base camp" is a popular thing to do. Or you could car camp at Dolly Cop or Lafayette camp grounds and do peak bagging day hikes. There are many trails in the Whites, some are very difficult and some are pretty easy but have a good reward with a stunning view at the top.

Here's the view from the top of Mt Potash, a little 1.9 mile, 1400 foot climb hike I did today. The view would be awash with color the first week of October (and there is some starting to show up now). This is just one example of many hikes you can do which don't involve the AT.

40140

[Slo-go'en]

Here's the view from the Crag Camp porch:
40141

Here's looking over to Washington from the top of Mt Adams:
40142

The Perch does hang on the side of a ravine, but is reasonably well protected. The Valley Way tent site is a mile and a 1000 feet down from Madison hut and is also reasonably well protected.

[KDogg]

Don't overthink it. You can pitch any tent design on the platforms. You don't need any longer guylines than what you have been using and any poles (including trekking poles) will work. I have a duplex. It was not hard to figure out.

[Deacon]

I have a Duplex with linelocs at each corner and at the pull outs. I intentionally used six feet of 1.75mm lines at each of those locations, and about ten feet on the pullouts so I could make them long, or pull them through the line locks and make them short. There were times I went to a tree with the pullout.

I also carry eight small brass eye screws with my stakes, for use on the platforms. I used those as often as the stakes.

[williamgymnst]

Thanks for all the great advice everyone. I am flying in for the trip, which does complicate things. I've spoken with the airline, and there it is possible to change my flight, for a fee of course. So, I will keep the trip as a go for now, watch the weather religiously leading up to the trip, and call it off it the weather has been dangerous and is forecasted to remain so. If I make the flight up, I will still watch the weather up until I step off and find something else to hike if the weather takes a quick turn.
Day hikes sound like a good idea. Does anyone else have any other suggestions about 1-2 day hikes in the area?

[Slo-go'en]

Consider renting a car. The only way to get here is by the bus which leaves Logan airport at 3:40 PM and arrives in Gorham as late a 9:30 PM, depending on rush hour traffic leaving Boston. Friday is the worst, Sat and Sunday are the only times the bus is close to schedule. If flying to Manchester, NH renting a car is the only option. For some reason there is no bus service to the Manchester airport.

Once you get to Gorham, you'll need a place to stay. You'd have to check with the Rattle river hostel (formally the White Mt Hostel) to see if they would come pick you up that late at night. Otherwise you'll have to spend top dollar to stay in town at one of the motels. On the weekends most of the motels are full up with ATVers.

If you rent a car, you can avoid these hassles. In that case, flying into Manchester is the best option, since you don't have to deal with driving through Boston traffic and Manchester is only a couple hour drive from most places in the Whites. Then having a car gives you the flexibility to get to places which otherwise would be difficult or impossible to get to. The only problem is this is turning into an expensive couple of days to hike here.

[williamgymnst]

Consider renting a car. The only way to get here is by the bus which leaves Logan airport at 3:40 PM and arrives in Gorham as late a 9:30 PM, depending on rush hour traffic leaving Boston. Friday is the worst, Sat and Sunday are the only times the bus is close to schedule. If flying to Manchester, NH renting a car is the only option. For some reason there is no bus service to the Manchester airport.

Once you get to Gorham, you'll need a place to stay. You'd have to check with the Rattle river hostel (formally the White Mt Hostel) to see if they would come pick you up that late at night. Otherwise you'll have to spend top dollar to stay in town at one of the motels. On the weekends most of the motels are full up with ATVers.

If you rent a car, you can avoid these hassles. In that case, flying into Manchester is the best option, since you don't have to deal with driving through Boston traffic and Manchester is only a couple hour drive from most places in the Whites. Then having a car gives you the flexibility to get to places which otherwise would be difficult or impossible to get to. The only problem is this is turning into an expensive couple of days to hike here.

I am flying into Portland, seeing some friends that are there and then continuing onto Gorham in the early hours on Saturday. I was able to use points for my flight, freeing up some cash to rent a car out of convenience. My plan, as of now is to camp at Valley Way on Saturday night, and hopefully go to all the way to Nauman on Saturday, weather permitting of course.
You do raise a great point. Should the weather not permit a traditional traverse, the car rental would give me great flexibility to go do multiple day hikes or go find another spot with better weather to do a multi-day trip.

[egilbe]

Your thinking of Crag Camp, which sits on the edge of King Ravine. A rather stunning view from the front porch towards Madison and the King

40140

you're correct. I was thinking of Crag camp.

Valley way to Nauman is doable, if you are in good condition. Chris Dailey did it in under 6 hours, but he's the exception. Backpacking, plan on about 10 to 12 hours. The trail becomes decidedly better after Lakes. Before lakes, its several miles of rock-hopping.

[Slo-go'en]

How are you getting from Portland to Gorham? It's about a 3 hour drive if you have someone drive you direct, otherwise you have to go to Boston first.

The hike up to the Valley Way tent site will take about 3 hours (assuming the direct route via the Valley Way trail). The hike from the Valley Way to Nauman will take 8 to 10 hours assuming ideal conditions and how often and how long you need to stop and rest. Some of that depends on if you take the summit by-passes or not. It's *only* 12.6 miles, but these are fairly rough miles and it's a rare day your not walking into a stiff wind up there. Wind chill can be significant.

For October 1st, sunrise is 6:43 AM and sunset is 6:24PM. By October 7th you've already lost 18 minutes of daylight. The decent to Mizpah Hut is on the east side of the ridge, so it will be getting dark on the trail an hour or two earlier. Cloud cover to the west can make a big difference in how fast it gets dark. Good Luck!

[Slo-go'en]

Here's plan "B". Hike up to the Perch on Saturday. From there you can go directly to Edmonds Col and take 2-3 hours off the time to hike to Nauman vs the Valley Way tent site.

Given the time of year, this would be a prudent thing to do. Surely it's worth the $10 for the convenience, if the caretaker comes around to collect. Plus there will be brand new tent platforms there.
The best way to get to the Perch from the road is to take Lowes Path to Randolph Path, and then jog over to the Perch. Budget at least 4 hours to get to the Perch. There's one long, steep climb involved on Lowes which I nick name "the killer half mile". The Lowes path trail head is across the street from Lowe's Gas station, about 3 miles west of the Appalachia parking lot - the one with cars parked 1/4 mile along the side of the highway.


The Israel ridge trail looks shorter and more direct (and it is), but it's a black diamond in terms of difficulty. There are a couple of tricky stream crossings on the Israel Ridge to make it more exciting and you may encounter high water.

Hum, if your heading up on a Saturday and the weather is nice, there will be a lot of people at these campsites on Sat night.

[williamgymnst]

Yes. All great points. I am planning on renting a car and driving from Portland to Gorham. Saving enough on not paying for my flight to make renting a car doable. I figure it will allow me to bring a lot of gear and decide last minute what I actually need to pack last minute. I will plan to do Valley Way the first day and go to Nauman the second. I am in good shape. I've hiked all of the AT in GA and a lot in the Smokies. I am generally athletic other than that and keep very on top of my fitness. All of this is, of course, weather permitting, but I feel like I could do VW to Nauman without a an exorbitant problem. It will be tough, but I can do it. Just hope the weather favors me because I've been wanting a Presi for a while!!!

[williamgymnst]

Also, since I will need to watch the weather very closely leading up to the trip, does anyone have a favorite weather site they trust? I've been tracking on mountain-forecast.com, but would love a local's preference.

[egilbe]

https://www.mountwashington.org/

higher summit forecasts. Look at that site the day you climb, but even then, there is a chance it will be wrong. The weather is very unpredictable up there. It can change within a few hours of the forecast. Madison Spring hut closes around the beginning of October so you wont be able to get an up to date forecast. The rangers do post a weather forecast at the kiosk at Appalachia, but you may not see it before its updated. Plan bail out routes along your main route and know what you are going to do at any point along the trail. Expect ice and snow at elevation. Bring mittens.

[Slo-go'en]

A forecast is not posted at Appalachia, but you'll have cell service there. The obs peaks forecast spans 3 days and is typically pretty close to what will happen. A more regional 7 to 10 day forecast can be gotten from the local TV station's web site, wmur.com That can show you what's coming in the near future, but maybe not exactly when. The forecast is geared for the southern end of the state, but they do give the north country some coverage. At least you'd know if something nasty is headed this way.

Knowing what to expect and being out in it can be two different things. The ideal time is the day after a cold front passes through. By then the winds have mostly died down, the air is clear and the temps crisp. If you can't hit the day after, usually you still have another day or two before the next front blows through. At most, the best one can expect to get is three decent days in a row and one of those might be marginal.

I have a feeling it will be an early fall this year. Some trees are already changing colors and there is a definite feel and look of fall in the air. We didn't get this type of weather until well into September last year and it stayed nice well into October. The first snow often comes the last week of Sept or first week of October and I bet it does this year. Having microspikes could save your life or be useless extra weight.

I hope you happen to hit a good weather window and have a spectacular hike. It really is a toss of the dice.

[peakbagger]

I use the Eye on the Sky Forecast from the Fairbanks Museum in Vermont. The weather generally come from the west and tends to be more reflective of the local weather compared to the NH and Maine forecasts that tend to cover the high population coastal areas. If there is split forecast on the Eye on the Sky forecast it usually is broken up by north or south of route 2 or will have a specific Northeast Kingdom forecast. You want the north of Route 2 forecast.

[Slo-go'en]

The Vermont TV station weather forecast (WCAX) does often better reflect what we're getting soon in Northern NH. BTW, here's what the parking lot at Appalachia looks like on a typical Saturday afternoon (like today) The cars are lined up at least 1/4 mile along the highway either side of the parking lot, which can hold 40 cars. A nice weekend in October will equal or exceed this.

40145

[egilbe]

The Vermont TV station weather forecast (WCAX) does often better reflect what we're getting soon in Northern NH. BTW, here's what the parking lot at Appalachia looks like on a typical Saturday afternoon (like today) The cars are lined up at least 1/4 mile along the highway either side of the parking lot, which can hold 40 cars. A nice weekend in October will equal or exceed this.

J
Thats not too bad. I've seen it on both sides of the road.

I was surprised at the number of people parking on Tripoli rd after we hiked Osceola today. Crazy up there on nice days

[kf1wv]

Thats not too bad. I've seen it on both sides of the road.

I was surprised at the number of people parking on Tripoli rd after we hiked Osceola today. Crazy up there on nice days

I live in Waterville Valley and was walking in the Livermore TH area yesterday morning. I chuckled at the number of cars with out-of-state plates having trouble even locating the parking lot. Hope their occupants had an easier time following the trails. The Osceola TH parking lot is very small and overflows early on most mornings.

[egilbe]

I live in Waterville Valley and was walking in the Livermore TH area yesterday morning. I chuckled at the number of cars with out-of-state plates having trouble even locating the parling lot. Hope their occupants had an easier time following the trails. The Osceola TH parking lot is very small and overflows early on most mornings.
Most parking lots of the 4000 footers seem to be full within an hour of sunrise. Part of the reason I wake at 4:30 am and plan to be on the road by 5:30 am. Less traffic on the way there, but I hit it on the way out.

[Slo-go'en]

4000 footers get the much of the traffic, but I've been on a lot of out of the way places this summer and have always meet quite a few others on these trails. Doesn't seem to matter where you go these days. If there is a view to be had, people will be climbing up to it.

[Pinnah]

Couple of thoughts...

I treat above treeline as having potential for full winter conditions in the northern Presis. The classic sucker punch is climbing up from the north or west with the wind at your back and being blinded by 50mph snow on the descent.

Trips this time of year have greater hypothermia potential than mid winter trips as 35f and steady rain are not uncommon conditions for the ascent/descent. This time of year will test clothing systems.

I really prefer the huts (Crag and Grey Knob) to the tent platforms this time of year. Clothing is heavier. Crag is amazing.

If weather won't permit going above treeline, the RMC trails are worth exploring. The Cliffway Loop is stellar. A trip to the floor of King Ravine is well worth it. I would avoid Great Gully and King Tavine headwall unless weather is perfect.

Some picture of the Crag, Grey Knob and Log Cabin here. The moss is on Cliffway.

If weather is spotty and you want to go above treeline, ascending Lowe's and descending Spur is often doable. Spur is more protected. Just don't follow the wrong cairn line down Great Gully. It's an easy mistake. Ascending Spur and descending Airline or Valley Way is also possible as the wind tends to be behind you.

Here is a 3 night trip that can be safely adjusted on the fly according to weather.

Park at Appalachia.
Day 1: Ascend to Perch via Randolph Path. Possible side trip to Emerald Bluff.

Day 2: Summit Jefferson. Descend to Grey Knob via several routes.

Day 3: Summit Adams. Descend to Crag.

Day 4: Ascend to Thunderstorm Jct, traverse to Madison Hut (closed). Bag Madison and descend via Airline or Valley Path. Don't descend via Watson Path. Trust me.

[Pinnah]

Pictures here
https://flickr.com/photos/60566439@N05/sets/72157671762996582

[williamgymnst]

Thanks again to everyone for the great advice on weather and route planning! It's always great to see how willing people are to help others. I will keep all of your advice in mind and keep my plans open to any alteration. At this point, I will definitely be making the trip from Georgia to the Whites. Hopefully, the weather will work out so that I can sneak in a full traverse. However, I will definitely change my plans if needed and am much less committed to a traverse given the weather considerations.
I welcome all advice, planning considerations, and route ideas. Keep 'em coming if you got 'em!!

[williamgymnst]

Slightly different question. Given the variability of weather and the fact that most of my hiking is done in the Blue Ridge and Smoky Mountains, does anyone have any favorite layering combinations/setups that serve them well in this season and environment?

[Pinnah]

Here is my clothing list for fall/spring trips in the Whites.

Sub-bullets represent alternatives to the primary choice, based on expected conditions. This is copied from my actual packing list file, so some of the names may be non-sense to you. I can clarify if needed.

Note, I strongly prefer pile to fleece in cold rainy conditions.

----
TRAIL CLOTHING - Worn
-----
Altimeter watch
Med wt Poly T-shirt (0.7)
- Med wt poly t-neck (0.9)
Fleece shirt (0.8)
- Cream Pile Sweater (0.18)
DriClime Windshirt (0.11)

Guide pants (1.4)
Black liner shorts (0.4)
- Med wt tights (blue) (0.7)
Bandana
Knee brace

Liner socks
Heavy socks
Pick 1 based on snow depth:
+ Light boots
+ Heavy boots
Pick 1 based on snow depth:
+ Short gaitors
+ Tall gaiters

Pick 1 based on temp:
+ Cotton cycling hat
+ Duckbill fleece hat
+ Plaid wool baseball hat

Wool gloves
Shell gloves



-----
TRAIL CLOTHING - PACK
Assumes all of this will get wet.
Packed summit pack or stuff sack.
-----
Outdoor Products pack (0.4)
- Black stuff sack (0.2)
- EMS pack (0.12)

Free Tech Sweater (0.15)
- Pile Sweater (0.16 for rain)
- Primaloft Sweater (1.14)

Rain jacket (0.15)
Rain pants (0.8)
- Lined Side-zip Pants (1.5)


-----
OVERNIGHT CLOTHING - PACK
assumes this will stay dry
Stuff sack
-----
Med wt Poly T-Neck (0.9)
Med wt tights (blue) (0.7)
- Exp wt tights (0.10)

Balaclava
Spare wool gloves
Spare liner socks
Spare heavy socks

[egilbe]

150 wt Merino wool t-shirt from Icebreaker
long sleeve nylon button down shirt from Eddie Bauer
hooded stretch fleece pullover from Ragged Mountain Equipment
Hooded Super Stratus Down Puffy from Sierra Designs.
TNF Nylon zip off hiking pants
Marmot Precip Rain Jacket
Patagucci cap 2 base layer bottoms (sleeping)
Cap 4 hoody (sleeping)
LL Bean wool fuffy boot socks (sleeping)
2 pairs Darn tough cushioned hiker socks
Salomon XD Pro 3 hiking shoes
dirty girl gaiters
Minus 33 Ridge cff beanie
Rab fleece glove liners
OR fleece windbloc mittens

if it gets much colder than 30 degrees, I'll swap out my nylon pants for my OR fleece tights and bring my LLBean polartec rain pants. If it gets down into the teens or single numbers, I'll add lightweight wool baselayer to my fleece tights and long sleeve wool base layer to my upper matched with an R1 hoody while I'm hiking. Much below zero, its another layer of fleece, balaclava, goggles, mittens and a windshell. At least until I warm up. At those temps, its more about managing layers and energy output to prevent sweating.

Hiking warms you up, but the cold is lethal. If you stop moving, you cool off faster than you dry out and hypothermia sets in. Extra warm/dry layers to put on is necessary for survival.

For three season hiking, anything down to staying warm in the 20's is good. Winter is a different animal.

[jofjltncb6]

You are 100% correct, of course.

That said, that particular brochure is flawed in that on a casual raeding it conflates recommended LNT practices, with the summaries of the "Supervisor's Orders" which have the force of law.

Why is this important?

It may not be for most, given the actual Supervisor's Orders are many, and the practical considerations of camping in the Whites can make the designated sites VERY attractive.

On the other hand, if you pass a fellow hiker who has pitched his tent below treeline and well away from a man-made structure or road which is outside of a Wilderness area, don't be too quick to assume he is camping illegally-- even if his camp is just a few feet from the Trail.

In point of fact, there are a whole bunch a places along the AT where you can camp off-trail legally, just as there are plenty you can't -- or wouldn't want to even if you could.

Did you mean needs to be outside a *Wilderness area* or a *Forest Protection Area*? Because I'm pretty sure backcountry camping in Wilderness areas is not necessarily illegal.

(Note that I'm not saying it is "preferred" or even "advisable", just "legal".)