View Full Version : ATC Says Trail Magic is Bad for the Trail
ldsailor
07-28-2017, 15:42
I'm a member of the ATC, so I get their quarterly journal. I wish I could publish a link to their Summer 2017 article "Practical Trail Magic" but it does not appear to be online. The crux of the article is trailhead trail magic (TM) and TM held in the woods just off the trail is bad for the trail. Their argument is it creates hiker bubbles and needlessly strains the trail environment in other ways, too.
I'm a LASHer having done 500 miles last year and this year (2017). I've got to say that nothing lifts my spirits and those of other hikers (as I have observed) more than trail magic. I tend to lose a lot of weight, so the food free-for-all at these TM's is a big help.
The ATC says the TM should be held in trail towns, but really, how many hikers would go that far out of their way without some knowledge of what a TM entails? In other words, how would you feel going a couple of miles out of your way for coffee and a donut as opposed to a full on TM with hot dogs, hambugers, sweets, etc?
So, what's my point? I'm just curious about what other through hikers and LASHers think about the ATC's concerns and how it relates to them as a long distance hiker.
MuddyWaters
07-28-2017, 15:49
You wont like my opinion.
Nothing wrong with trail magic
Planned food for hikers on vacation, isnt magic
Its stupid
Done by people that want to "buy friends" or notoriety
Its bad for trails everywhere, and its spilled over to the point idiots want to do it in middle of sierra, have party.
I'm a member of the ATC, so I get their quarterly journal. I wish I could publish a link to their Summer 2017 article "Practical Trail Magic" but it does not appear to be online. The crux of the article is trailhead trail magic (TM) and TM held in the woods just off the trail is bad for the trail. Their argument is it creates hiker bubbles and needlessly strains the trail environment in other ways, too.
I'm a LASHer having done 500 miles last year and this year (2017). I've got to say that nothing lifts my spirits and those of other hikers (as I have observed) more than trail magic. I tend to lose a lot of weight, so the food free-for-all at these TM's is a big help.
The ATC says the TM should be held in trail towns, but really, how many hikers would go that far out of their way without some knowledge of what a TM entails? In other words, how would you feel going a couple of miles out of your way for coffee and a donut as opposed to a full on TM with hot dogs, hambugers, sweets, etc?
So, what's my point? I'm just curious about what other through hikers and LASHers think about the ATC's concerns and how it relates to them as a long distance hiker.
i think anyone out on any sort of hike who needs someone to throw them a spontaneous party on the trail to "lift their spirits" needs to reflect that hiking is voluntary and that perhaps, if theyd rather be doing something else, they should go do it. i mean seriously we arent soldiers marching off to fight the nazis or something.
unrelated, i think "trail towns" are, or at least should be, towns that are literally on the trail. i agree with what youre saying about venturing to one far off the trail, but i'm not going to one of those even if there is a party going on.
if there has to be parties, the numerous towns that are indeed literally on the trail seem like a good palce for them.
Lone Wolf
07-28-2017, 15:51
feeds are out of control. lotsa times the feeders leave trash
ldsailor
07-28-2017, 16:02
i think anyone out on any sort of hike who needs someone to throw them a spontaneous party on the trail to "lift their spirits" needs to reflect that hiking is voluntary
You missed my point or more accurately, I failed to explain it properly. While some hikers may continually grouse about the lack of a TM, which would indicate they have a "need," they are in the minority from my observation. The very fact that "spirits are lifted" is an indicator of something unexpected - like a cool sunny day when the forecast called for cold rain.
You missed my point or more accurately, I failed to explain it properly. While some hikers may continually grouse about the lack of a TM, which would indicate they have a "need," they are in the minority from my observation. The very fact that "spirits are lifted" is an indicator of something unexpected - like a cool sunny day when the forecast called for cold rain.
and you miss my point- if you dont enjoy the act of being out for a hike, even when it is raining, then go do something else.
ldsailor
07-28-2017, 16:10
and you miss my point- if you dont enjoy the act of being out for a hike, even when it is raining, then go do something else.
I don't know how you came to that conclusion from my post, but I'll just accept the fact that you want to inject some unnecessary negativety into the discussion and move on from there.
I think part of the issue is that the term "Trail Magic" has become synonymous with "hiker feeds."
Random and spontaneous acts of kindness indeed lift the spirits.
Large and organized hiker feeds impacts the trail and the trail experience is the ATC contention.
Be nice to separate the two definitions, but I don't think that will happen anytime soon. At least in popular use.
I don't know how you came to that conclusion from my post, but I'll just accept the fact that you want to inject some unnecessary negativety into the discussion and move on from there.
you speaking of the positive effects of "lifting spirits" with a hiker feed.
my response is, if your spirts are in need of lifting, then why are you out hiking?
even as someone who hikes regularly, if i'm out hiking and realize i dont want to be there, i pack it in and go home. i dont see how someone offering me a free hamburger has anything to do with it one way or the other.
the tenor of your post is all part of this notion that is all too common that says hikers, thrus in particular, on are some noble and admirable quest that requires and is deserving of the assistance of society at large. thats utter nonsense. anyone who wants to feed people whos spirits needs lifting should go find a soup kitchen or something similar to volunteer at. being part of a hiker feed is just a way for them to join the party without doing any hiking. they do it for themselves, not for you.
TJ aka Teej
07-28-2017, 16:25
Before much more posting goes on, perhaps reading the actual ATC guidelines (https://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-document-library/suggestions-for-providing-trail-magic.pdf) may enlighten the conversation.
ldsailor
07-28-2017, 16:27
I think part of the issue is that the term "Trail Magic" has become synonymous with "hiker feeds."
Random and spontaneous acts of kindness indeed lift the spirits.
Large and organized hiker feeds impacts the trail and the trail experience is the ATC contention.
Be nice to separate the two definitions, but I don't think that will happen anytime soon. At least in popular use.
A very good point! The article starts out with this:
"Trail magic is a term that is often misconstrued. By the ATC definition, Trail magic is a serendipitous experience on the Appalachian Trail. Mostly it's unplanned acts of kindness by strangers, though a liberal interpretation might include a mesmerizing sunset after days of soaking rain, or a wildlife sighting so thrilling it makes your heart pound."
Ankle Bone
07-28-2017, 16:32
It's all been said by Muddy Waters, Lone Wolf, and tdoczi.
Well done
ldsailor
07-28-2017, 16:34
Before much more posting goes on, perhaps reading the actual ATC guidelines (https://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-document-library/suggestions-for-providing-trail-magic.pdf) may enlighten the conversation.
Thanks for posting that link. That's the basis for the article. I was not aware of the documents existence. The journal article goes into much more detail of course.
I'm not sure why everyone is grouping "trail magic" into a single type of event. On my thru hike I saw many different examples of trail magic and it was obvious which ones were a problem. Most organized trail magic events were at trail head parking lots or parks near to the trail and not actually on the trail. I enjoyed these events and had much gratitude when they occurred. There is a big difference in your mentality when on a short (a few days or weeks) backpacking trip and being on a thru hike for several months. Trail magic definitely wouldn't have meant much to me if I was on a "backpacking trip". I wouldn't desire it or expect it and probably wouldn't stop if it presented itself. A thru hike, though, is a much different animal. You body is starving. Intake calories are lower than expenditure calories for a long periods of time. It's not that you are going to die but when a caloric opportunity like trail magic presents itself it is most impossible to say no and you get a sense of elation that is more physical than mental. Now, everybody has come across the random cooler in the woods that may contain food but most likely is full of nothing but hiker garbage. Many even have a note on them that says they will be back to pick it up on such and such date (usually many days past). This is obviously not good and deserves the criticism. But I always appreciated trail magic and most folks did it "correctly".
I'm just not pure enough :0( trail magic was an Apple and it was great eating it . Yes I'm week
thom
You wont like my opinion.
Nothing wrong with trail magic
Planned food for hikers on vacation, isnt magic
Its stupid
Done by people that want to "buy friends" or notoriety
Its bad for trails everywhere, and its spilled over to the point idiots want to do it in middle of sierra, have party.
Amen brother!!!!!!
Sarcasm the elf
07-28-2017, 17:58
I'm in agreement with the ATC. Hiker feeds and unattended "trail magic" coolers a lot of negative effects on the trail. They cause trash, clog up trailheads, and create a sense of entitlement and expectation of freebees among newer hikers.
To relay my own bias, I'm a section hiker have found there are a small but sizable number of these self titled "trail angels" are more accurately thru hiker groupies. On several occasions I've been deliberately stopped by people who offered me some sort of unsolicited freebie, only to have them renege the offer when they found out I was a section hiker. This is something that I find incredibly insulting and has soured my opinion of hiker feeds in general. What they're actually doing is interrupting my day just to let me know that my hike isn't worthy of their help
and while I'm normally a very polite person in these cases I'm perfectly happy to let them know where they can shove that free hotdog.
Trail magic definitely wouldn't have meant much to me if I was on a "backpacking trip".
ummm... you were on a backpacking trip.
jimmyjam
07-28-2017, 18:17
I agree with ATC too. I think a lot of these feeds add to the entitlement attitude that some hikes get. To me trail magic is like when you come out of the store after resupplying and you haven't even put out your thumb and someone comes up and says" Hey need a lift back to the trail?"
Agree with ATC. It's getting to where it's a circus out there.
ScareBear
07-28-2017, 18:36
I'm in agreement with the ATC. Hiker feeds and unattended "trail magic" coolers a lot of negative effects on the trail. They cause trash, clog up trailheads, and create a sense of entitlement and expectation of freebees among newer hikers.
To admit my own bias, I'm a section hiker and there is a small but sizable number of these self titled "trail angels" are more accurately thru hiker groupies. On several occasions I've been deliberately stopped by people who offered me some sort of unsolicited freebie, only to have them renege the offer when they found out I was a section hiker. This is something that I find incredibly insulting and has soured my opinion of hiker feeds in general. What they're actually doing is interrupting my day just to let me know that my hike isn't worthy of their help
and while I'm normally a very polite person in these cases I'm perfectly happy to let them know where they can shove that free hotdog.
Only one time I had that happen. It was on the order of "well, if there's any left when the thru hikers are done you are welcome to it..." I'm not normally a very polite person. Pretty sure you can imagine my response about what the little prick could do with any leftovers. :-?
As long as feeds don't happen on the trail and at a public trailhead or public parking lot that the AT happens to run through, and there is no trash left, I say "What is it for anyone to care about?" If you were going to stop at the trailhead or parking lot, nothing is preventing you. If you were going to stop at the trailhead or PARKING LOT for the scenic view and a hiker feed ruined it for you...well...REALLY? Come on...
Emerson Bigills
07-28-2017, 19:07
I left Springer in February this year and was the recipient of countless acts of trail magic. I appreciated every one of them. I did not experience any "hiker feeds", probably too early. I did get some soft drinks left in coolers in several states and had folks give me fruit a couple other times. I appreciated every one of them. Would I have enjoyed and been grateful for a hot dog or a hamburger, or even a cup of coffee? You bet. I never expected anything, but appreciated everything I received.
Do I plan on providing some trail magic food next year to the 2018 class? You bet. I know how much it meant to the NOBO's I was around when they got it. I know it is not in vogue with many on this site and even the ATC, but I think I practice LNT principles and would conduct a Magic session with those in mind. I don't really care what others think, it is a way for thru-hikers who were there, to provide a moment of "magic" to a hiker that otherwise is grinding miles another day. It is the little things that can break up a tough and often boring day on the trail.
To relay my own bias, I'm a section hiker have found there are a small but sizable number of these self titled "trail angels" are more accurately thru hiker groupies. On several occasions I've been deliberately stopped by people who offered me some sort of unsolicited freebie, only to have them renege the offer when they found out I was a section hiker. This is something that I find incredibly insulting and has soured my opinion of hiker feeds in general. What they're actually doing is interrupting my day just to let me know that my hike isn't worthy of their help
and while I'm normally a very polite person in these cases I'm perfectly happy to let them know where they can shove that free hotdog.
I hear ya. Last summer while hiking a section in PA I came to a road crossing. There were two competing TMs set up, one to the right, one to the left. The woman at the one to the left started waving her arms excitedly, calling me over to her. Not sure if she wanted to ask a specific question, or needed something from me, I went towards her, needed to actually walk past her canopy to a driveway to get into the parking lot where she was set up. As I approached her, she opened a cooler which I assumed held hot dogs and sodas (confirmed by others who came after me). She then asked: "Are you a thru=hiker?" I replied section. She said "Oh", closed the cooler and turned away. Talk about being ticked off, not over not getting a free-be, but because I had hiked a significant distance off the trail based on her frantic waving and calling, and was then completely rebuffed. Just shook my head and walked on.
As to the enjoyment of a bit of magic, one's spirits don't have to be low to be lifted even higher!
I love it when I find a couple cans of coke in a stream, and leave a thank you.
Hiker feeds? Trail Days? Not my thing, I avoid them like the plague. Not fond of crowds of any sort.
I'm in agreement with the ATC. Hiker feeds and unattended "trail magic" coolers a lot of negative effects on the trail. They cause trash, clog up trailheads, and create a sense of entitlement and expectation of freebees among newer hikers.
To relay my own bias, I'm a section hiker have found there are a small but sizable number of these self titled "trail angels" are more accurately thru hiker groupies. On several occasions I've been deliberately stopped by people who offered me some sort of unsolicited freebie, only to have them renege the offer when they found out I was a section hiker. This is something that I find incredibly insulting and has soured my opinion of hiker feeds in general. What they're actually doing is interrupting my day just to let me know that my hike isn't worthy of their help
and while I'm normally a very polite person in these cases I'm perfectly happy to let them know where they can shove that free hotdog.
Thru hiker groupies are the perfect description for many. Also, let's stop using the term trail angels for hiker feeds, it is nothing more than an organized party, feeding vacationers. Finally, if you want to give back, volunteer to help with trail maintanence. These folks are the real trail angels. Rant complete.
imscotty
07-28-2017, 20:06
I'm sure the first person who fed a bear in Yosemite thought he was doing a good thing 'helping' the bears. With time the bears thought they were 'entitled' to handouts and there were an increasing number of unpleasant human bear interactions.
39957
The circus like atmosphere harmed the natural experience in Yosemite also proved unhealthy for the bears. Thankfully the practice was finally discouraged.
I'm not sure what I am getting at but there is a metaphor here somewhere. Planned Hiker Feeds are detrimental to the natural experience of the trip and encourage a sense of entitlement among some hikers and ultimately bad behavior from a few. You need to allow these hairy stinky thru-hiking beasts to learn to survive on their own. Tough love people!
Those that cannot make it without these hiker feeds may meet their demise, but that is nature's way. The survivors will ultimately be made stronger and their presence on the trail will improve the hiker gene pool.
rmitchell
07-28-2017, 20:17
Two of us plan to do some trail magic Saturday. We will likely carry a pair of loppers, a saw, couple of swing blades and maybe a fire rake or shovel.
As long as feeds don't happen on the trail and at a public trailhead or public parking lot that the AT happens to run through, and there is no trash left, I say "What is it for anyone to care about?" If you were going to stop at the trailhead or parking lot, nothing is preventing you. If you were going to stop at the trailhead or PARKING LOT for the scenic view and a hiker feed ruined it for you...well...REALLY? Come on...
Is there ever a problem with the group putting on the hiker feed taking so much room with their cars and set ups causing a lack of parking being available for others in the parking lots?
I have never seen a hiker feed since I do my hiking up north and they don't seem to take place up here. I am curious why that is, and get a sense of what the feeds are like. All I have to go on are the decisions and photos on WB.
Traffic Jam
07-28-2017, 20:35
I'm sure the first person who fed a bear in Yosemite thought he was doing a good thing 'helping' the bears. With time the bears thought they were 'entitled' to handouts and there were an increasing number of unpleasant human bear interactions.
39957
The circus like atmosphere harmed the natural experience in Yosemite also proved unhealthy for the bears. Thankfully the practice was finally discouraged.
I'm not sure what I am getting at but there is a metaphor here somewhere. Planned Hiker Feeds are detrimental to the natural experience of the trip and encourage a sense of entitlement among some hikers and ultimately bad behavior from a few. You need to allow these hairy stinky thru-hiking beasts to learn to survive on their own. Tough love people!
Those that cannot make it without these hiker feeds may meet their demise, but that is nature's way. The survivors will ultimately be made stronger and their presence on the trail will improve the hiker gene pool.
I agree with you but keep in mind the AT is a social trail. It's not about surviving on your own, but working and bonding with those around you...making life-long friendships....and reconnecting with the goodness of people.
Yogiing makes me irate but in essence, "trail magic" via hiker feeds is very similar. It's a win-win for the people who partake and those who provide which perpetuates the cycle.
Those who suggest feeding the homeless instead are right on target.
rocketsocks
07-28-2017, 21:34
I hear ya. Last summer while hiking a section in PA I came to a road crossing. There were two competing TMs set up, one to the right, one to the left. The woman at the one to the left started waving her arms excitedly, calling me over to her. Not sure if she wanted to ask a specific question, or needed something from me, I went towards her, needed to actually walk past her canopy to a driveway to get into the parking lot where she was set up. As I approached her, she opened a cooler which I assumed held hot dogs and sodas (confirmed by others who came after me). She then asked: "Are you a thru=hiker?" I replied section. She said "Oh", closed the cooler and turned away. Talk about being ticked off, not over not getting a free-be, but because I had hiked a significant distance off the trail based on her frantic waving and calling, and was then completely rebuffed. Just shook my head and walked on.Some people truly are clueless, you handled it better than I'd have.
DownEaster
07-28-2017, 21:41
my response is, if your spirts are in need of lifting, then why are you out hiking?
Because hiking lifts the spirits? Seems pretty obvious to me. Getting out on the trail, away from the usual concerns of commuter traffic, work, social obligations, & c. is restorative; however, this is a slow process and not without its own concerns (cold, heat, rain, wet feet, sore muscles). Extra lifting of the spirits is also good.
Uncle Joe
07-28-2017, 21:44
It would seem to me if the ATC wants to get a statement out about Trail Magic putting it online would be advantageous to that goal. There's good, bad, and many people in between and so it will be with Trail Magic and Trail Angels. I have no problem with it. Setup in a parking lot I fail to see the additional impact to the trail unless people are congregating on the trail. The ATC should probably encourage TM at trailheads and road crossings instead. Limit the impact is about all you can do at this point because that genie is too fat and happy to fit back in the bottle. Probably from too much Trail Magic! :p
Because hiking lifts the spirits? Seems pretty obvious to me. Getting out on the trail, away from the usual concerns of commuter traffic, work, social obligations, & c. is restorative; however, this is a slow process and not without its own concerns (cold, heat, rain, wet feet, sore muscles). Extra lifting of the spirits is also good.
you missed the point.
none of us has to hike. if at any point doing the actual hiking dampens our spirits, then we should stop.
the notion that people calling themselves "angels" need to go out and do anything to "lift the spirits" of people out on a recreational hike so that they dont get too downtrodden and will be better able to complete their goal is some sort of special 21st century america ludicrous.
TJ aka Teej
07-28-2017, 21:54
It would seem to me if the ATC wants to get a statement out about Trail Magic putting it online would be advantageous to that goal.
See post #10 in this thread.
I think part of the issue is that the term "Trail Magic" has become synonymous with "hiker feeds."
Random and spontaneous acts of kindness indeed lift the spirits.
Be nice to separate the two definitions, but I don't think that will happen anytime soon. At least in popular use.
There it is in a nutshell. TM is about more than food.
Before much more posting goes on, perhaps reading the actual ATC guidelines (https://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-document-library/suggestions-for-providing-trail-magic.pdf) may enlighten the conversation.
TU Teej.
..."Trail magic is a term that is often misconstrued. By the ATC definition, Trail magic is a serendipitous experience on the Appalachian Trail. Mostly it's unplanned acts of kindness by strangers, though a liberal interpretation might include a mesmerizing sunset after days of soaking rain, or a wildlife sighting so thrilling it makes your heart pound."
Ahh you got it.
I'm not sure why everyone is grouping "trail magic" into a single type of event. On my thru hike I saw many different examples of trail magic and it was obvious which ones were a problem. Most organized trail magic events were at trail head parking lots or parks near to the trail and not actually on the trail. I enjoyed these events and had much gratitude when they occurred...But I always appreciated trail magic and most folks did it "correctly".
This was the likely the TM intention - gratitude - appreciation.
... To me trail magic is like when you come out of the store after resupplying and you haven't even put out your thumb and someone comes up and says" Hey need a lift back to the trail?"
Another great example of TM
I left Springer in February this year and was the recipient of countless acts of trail magic. I appreciated every one of them. I did not experience any "hiker feeds", probably too early. I did get some soft drinks left in coolers in several states and had folks give me fruit a couple other times. I appreciated every one of them. Would I have enjoyed and been grateful for a hot dog or a hamburger, or even a cup of coffee? You bet. I never expected anything, but appreciated everything I received.
Do I plan on providing some trail magic food next year to the 2018 class? You bet. I know how much it meant to the NOBO's I was around when they got it. I know it is not in vogue with many on this site and even the ATC, but I think I practice LNT principles and would conduct a Magic session with those in mind. I don't really care what others think, it is a way for thru-hikers who were there, to provide a moment of "magic" to a hiker that otherwise is grinding miles another day. It is the little things that can break up a tough and often boring day on the trail.
I'd venture to state your impetus for providing TM to hikers after you is to give back, to honor others, and to spread the appreciation and gratitude you had because of experiencing TM.
I agree with you but keep in mind the AT is a social trail. It's not about surviving on your own, but working and bonding with those around you...making life-long friendships....and reconnecting with the goodness of people....
TJ is not even a thru-hiker and knows this not that you have to be a thru to acknowledge the value of TM or hiker food done with consideration and responsibility and the value it has to the "AT experience."
Mr. Bumpy
07-28-2017, 22:38
Two of us plan to do some trail magic Saturday. We will likely carry a pair of loppers, a saw, couple of swing blades and maybe a fire rake or shovel.
This is the best post on this thread.
DownEaster
07-29-2017, 00:05
you missed the point.
none of us has to hike. if at any point doing the actual hiking dampens our spirits, then we should stop.
Why? Some parts are tougher than others, depending on our own capabilities and preferences. A couple of days on the rocks in Pennsylvania may dampen the spirits, but the rocks don't last forever. Some trail angel providing cold drinks and cold packs to wrap around our knees or ankles in those rocks would be very salutary. There are usually disheartening parts of any significant endeavor, but completing such an undertaking is generally rewarding. Advising people to stop a hike when some part of that hike is unpleasant is defeatist.
There is no requirement for people to produce trail magic. There should be no expectation of receiving trail magic. It's magic, not an obligation for angels or a right for hikers.
Why? Some parts are tougher than others, depending on our own capabilities and preferences. A couple of days on the rocks in Pennsylvania may dampen the spirits, but the rocks don't last forever. Some trail angel providing cold drinks and cold packs to wrap around our knees or ankles in those rocks would be very salutary. There are usually disheartening parts of any significant endeavor, but completing such an undertaking is generally rewarding. Advising people to stop a hike when some part of that hike is unpleasant is defeatist.
.
why does hard have to equal disheartening equals my spirits are down and a free hot dog will really fix things?
sure, there are miserable days. a hamburger doesnt change that and on balance even on the worst days my spirt requires no lifting. being out doing what i want to be doing is all the lifting required.
if i really dont want to be there, which is rare, but does happen, i go home. thats not defeatist. spending your vacation miserably slogging through something youre not enjoying is defeatist, and the idea cold soda and potato salad by the side of the road is going to fix that is silly.
BuckeyeBill
07-29-2017, 03:51
How many of us remember when TM was two elderly people with a five gallon cooler of some type of juice, or 2-3 big thermos's of coffee and a Snickers Candy Bar? You used your own cup and only took 1 Snickers while you took a break and talked to the folks. When you were done, you thanked the folks and walked away happy with a sugar buzz.
Easter 2014 TM x2 A woman in the woods giving bags of candy and packing out your trash, God bless her, so sweet and kind. Second, a full sit down feed on a forest service roadside complete with home made deserts put on by a class of 79 member and his friends. These act of kindness will be with me for the rest of my life and screw anyone or anything that says that they were a bad thing on that damp chilly trail that day. Don't like it pass it up, everywhere every time as for me a bag of oranges or a soda in a cooler and water in a long dry stretch is a wonderful thing. These acts of kindness are not demanded or required, but just pleasant surprises, like MAGIC.
Traveler
07-29-2017, 09:01
Two of us plan to do some trail magic Saturday. We will likely carry a pair of loppers, a saw, couple of swing blades and maybe a fire rake or shovel.
This is a great idea and to me a substantial gift that keeps on giving.
The AT is typically maintained by local volunteers through a local association or committee. Its a good idea to try coordinating with before doing work though. As a trail maintainer (not the AT) myself I have seen well intentioned people perform sometimes heavy work in trail sections that was incorrectly done (actually made conditions worse), had an association organized work party scheduled for the same work or area, or work done on bits of trail that were moved later in the season or the following year and the effort was negated.
A quick email or call is usually all thats needed and 95% of the time your efforts will be greatly appreciated and accepted. On behalf of the maintainers, thanks!
Puddlefish
07-29-2017, 09:19
Hiker feeds were generally negative for me. I don't like crowds, I don't like noisy trail crossings with the sound and smell of cars, I just want to get them over with and get back onto the trail.
I'm responsible and prepared for my own nutrition, I don't want to be nagged to eat a cheeseburger right before having to climb up out of a steep gap. I don't want to be preached at if I stop and chat with another hiker for a moment. I don't want to be yelled at by drunken locals from 100 feet away, to come grab a beer. I even had one crazy lady yell at me for politely declining the "hiker hospitality" as I continued to walk. One guy in a bright yellow "Trail Angel" paint schemed pick up truck yelled "do you need any water?" from a service road, waking up the poor slobs who tented near the road, who I had just tiptoed by, so as not to wake them. Three of the balds were overrun with noise and feeds and parties.
Then there was the sloppy leave unattended fruit and food to litter and screw with the local wildlife.
In short, hiker feeds kicked my out of my wilderness adventure groove, and left me twitching for hours at a time. Yes, a great deal of that is about moderating my response to annoying things. (I'm still working on that.)
One on one, real trail magic was more about a friendly local at a grocery store, who wanted to hear about my hike. Maybe an ex hiker wanting to reconnect, or a potential hiker wanting to learn about distance hiking. It was about chatting with a day hiker who shared local knowledge about flower identification or a blue blaze with a waterfall view. It was all the other hikers who found something in common to chat about. It was 100% unplanned.
A very good point! The article starts out with this:"Trail magic is a term that is often misconstrued. By the ATC definition, Trail magic is a serendipitous experience on the Appalachian Trail. Mostly it's unplanned acts of kindness by strangers, though a liberal interpretation might include a mesmerizing sunset after days of soaking rain, or a wildlife sighting so thrilling it makes your heart pound."
Agreed! That's what I always thought trail magic was... You're hot and tired and thirsty and the water sources are awful, and there's a sudden rain and you put up your tarp and catch the water coming off the edge. Or you've hurt yourself and just as you get to a road crossing in the middle of nowhere, someone comes by and helps.
A bunch of people in a parking lot grilling hamburgers is nice, but not true "trail magic". Although after eating food in a bag for a few days, and drinking river water, that fresh burger and a coke surely seem magical.
capehiker
07-29-2017, 10:05
Hiker feeds and planned trail magic are bad. Every year there are pack sniffers tripping over themselves in online forums asking where and how to get food/rides to hikers for free. I personally believe this is to stroke the ego of the giver and less to do with with the hiker.
On the flip side, I don't have a problem with former Thru hikers doing trail magic. They get it and are giving back.
Francis Sawyer
07-29-2017, 10:12
If you feed the hikers they will soon become conditioned and expect to BE fed. That may become aggressive if not fed when they expect. The only choice then is to trap and transfer.
Slo-go'en
07-29-2017, 11:04
Two of us plan to do some trail magic Saturday. We will likely carry a pair of loppers, a saw, couple of swing blades and maybe a fire rake or shovel.
I did trail brushing last Saturday. I decided to have fun with the hikers coming down the trail. They would thank me for the work I was doing, I would than say they were welcome and I only had 200 hours of community service left on my sentence. They would then hurry on :)
Sarcasm the elf
07-29-2017, 11:12
If you feed the hikers they will soon become conditioned and expect to BE fed. That may become aggressive if not fed when they expect. The only choice then is to trap and transfer.
That is the ideal situation. Unfortunately in the cases where the hikers become aggressive and attack a trail angel, the rangers usually have no choice except to trap and euthenize the hiker. Often during the process they will end trapping and euthanizing other hikers in the immediate area as well. A fed hiker is a dead hiker.
Catered trail feeds probably adversely impact trail town businesses.
Moving trail catering to trail towns would ABSOLUTELY adversely affect businesses.
What is the ATC thinking?
Wayne
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Perhaps the ATC should work to undo the attitude defined in the first paragraph?
Wayne
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ldsailor
07-29-2017, 11:56
Just a short note to thank everyone for their varying opinions on trail magic. As the OP of this thread, I have enjoyed reading the responses. The various opinions are a real eye opener. They have made me sit down and think hard about this thing called "Trail Magic" AKA hiker feed. I don't know if I will pass up the next TM I see, but I sure will pause and think about it.
Just a short note to thank everyone for their varying opinions on trail magic. As the OP of this thread, I have enjoyed reading the responses. The various opinions are a real eye opener. They have made me sit down and think hard about this thing called "Trail Magic" AKA hiker feed. I don't know if I will pass up the next TM I see, but I sure will pause and think about it.
If you bring up other threads on this subject (even fairly recent ones) you will probably still find a diversity of opinions, but you may find the overall tone very different.
Hell, even Lone Wolf has confessed to bringing hikers (of all stripes) cheap beer every now and again.
Interesting how people's opinions have evolved.
MuddyWaters
07-29-2017, 13:11
Interesting how people's opinions have evolved.
What was OK when it was sparse
Isnt the same when its being done everywhere by tons of folks
Facebook has caused a literal explosion of it on trails everywhere by mis-guided people wanting to be associated with hikers, or wanting notoriety
Its simply...overload
I have absolutely no problem with trail magic. I've been the recipient and the benefactor.
Partake if you want and pass it by if you want to, but DON'T start telling others how things should be done.
Starchild
07-29-2017, 13:24
The AT thru hike is not something unique in the course of human civilization but practiced by many cultures throughout history and into pre-history in different forms and under different names. What it is not is a hike, nor a vacation. It is to borrow a term a pilgrimage. It is life transformational and a rite of passage. It in it's context is not done alone, though it can be if one can persevere, but to live off of kindness of heaven and fellow beings. As such trail magic is ingrained into human culture because it is for the good of society and humanity. As such trail magic is an integral part of the AT thru, it is a needed component and that alone has had many thru hikers faith in humanity restored (or so I've heard that phrase uttered many times on trail by AT thru hikers.
Why section hikers/day hikers don't count? Well if they are on a pilgrimage (again borrowing a word), it does. But for most they are on a vacation, or a weekend warrior (a vacation, just another form). They are just a day away from returning to society and whatever food and the like they desire. They are not giving up much and the addition of trail magic does not have the same meaning, as it doesn't matter much for a short term outing.
But for a thru it means a lot, an incredibly lot. And that is the life changing element that so many people need in their lives to become the person that can understand what it means to give and humbly receive. To help them become the trail angels of society today.
Will it stay with the AT, really I don't know, as regulation comes about, good will, and kind hearts, departs for more fertile ground and the AT is experiencing a trend towards the call for regulation.
Is the system of good will and trail magic perfect, no but what is. If the problems overcome the benefits, and people take advantage of the system, and the appreciation is not there, the good will and loving hearts will depart and the trail will be a far different place then it is.
The best trail magic I ever had was the simplest. I was in a stretch of the AT in PA and had a nine mile stretch between water points. I didn't realize that until three miles in and that I had failed to fill up when I should have. I still had five miles to go and was almost out of water when I came across three gallon jugs at a trail crossing. Two were empty, but the third kept me going. I took half and left half, and I was extremely appreciative.
Then there was the guy with a cooler full of cold beer after a long, hot stretch in VA, but that takes a back seat to the water.
Sarcasm the elf
07-29-2017, 13:43
I have absolutely no problem with trail magic. I've been the recipient and the benefactor.
Partake if you want and pass it by if you want to, but DON'T start telling others how things should be done.
I'm quite happy with the ATC telling people how to use the trail responsibly, it's sort of one of their main jobs.
I don't think anyone here has a problem with being kind and helping hikers out, even I've been known to discretely hand out a few cold sodas if I'm just out for a day hike. The issue how to do these things without mucking up the trail and experience for others.
I'm quite happy with the ATC telling people how to use the trail responsibly, it's sort of one of their main jobs.
I don't think anyone here has a problem with being kind and helping hikers out, even I've been known to discretely hand out a few cold sodas if I'm just out for a day hike. The issue how to do these things without mucking up the trail and experience for others.
The ATC can suggest, but it shouldn"t "tell".
Traffic Jam
07-29-2017, 16:47
The AT thru hike is not something unique in the course of human civilization but practiced by many cultures throughout history and into pre-history in different forms and under different names. What it is not is a hike, nor a vacation. It is to borrow a term a pilgrimage. It is life transformational and a rite of passage. It in it's context is not done alone, though it can be if one can persevere, but to live off of kindness of heaven and fellow beings. As such trail magic is ingrained into human culture because it is for the good of society and humanity. As such trail magic is an integral part of the AT thru, it is a needed component and that alone has had many thru hikers faith in humanity restored (or so I've heard that phrase uttered many times on trail by AT thru hikers.
Why section hikers/day hikers don't count? Well if they are on a pilgrimage (again borrowing a word), it does. But for most they are on a vacation, or a weekend warrior (a vacation, just another form). They are just a day away from returning to society and whatever food and the like they desire. They are not giving up much and the addition of trail magic does not have the same meaning, as it doesn't matter much for a short term outing.
But for a thru it means a lot, an incredibly lot. And that is the life changing element that so many people need in their lives to become the person that can understand what it means to give and humbly receive. To help them become the trail angels of society today.
Will it stay with the AT, really I don't know, as regulation comes about, good will, and kind hearts, departs for more fertile ground and the AT is experiencing a trend towards the call for regulation.
Is the system of good will and trail magic perfect, no but what is. If the problems overcome the benefits, and people take advantage of the system, and the appreciation is not there, the good will and loving hearts will depart and the trail will be a far different place then it is.
It's sad to hear people argue that only those most worthy deserve help/trail magic/hiker feeds. The basis of kindness and charity extends to all people, even those who don't appreciate it and those who don't deserve it.
Once limits are placed on kindness, you lose your humanity.
Traffic Jam
07-29-2017, 16:53
The best trail magic I've ever received is toilet paper.
One morning I had a bout of gastroenteritis and used all my supplies, even my bandana. Everything. I hiked to the next road crossing and sat, contemplating bailing on my hike, when a vehicle pulled to the shoulder. Swallowing my fright about approaching the car, I asked if they had any napkins and this lady reached in the backseat and pulled out a full roll of toilet paper. :)
Traffic Jam
07-29-2017, 16:55
...and the best trail magic I've ever done is, and always will, remain anonymous. It makes it so much sweeter to me.
SWODaddy
07-29-2017, 16:57
You wont like my opinion.
Nothing wrong with trail magic
Planned food for hikers on vacation, isnt magic
Its stupid
Done by people that want to "buy friends" or notoriety
Its bad for trails everywhere, and its spilled over to the point idiots want to do it in middle of sierra, have party.
This post covers my opinion.
ScareBear
07-29-2017, 17:44
I have absolutely no problem with trail magic. I've been the recipient and the benefactor.
Partake if you want and pass it by if you want to, but DON'T start telling others how things should be done.
As long as it is at a parking lot or a trailhead that vehicles can drive to anyway, and the folks clean up after themselves, I am in agreement with this. I just can't see what the objection could possibly be...
Now, I have not seen much of whatever you define TM as on the actual AT itself. Not much at all. Nothing involving cooking or feeding, that's for darn sure. The only feeds I've seen are at fairly big gaps that normal cars can easily drive to, trailheads that cross paved roadways, and atop one bald that I don't really count as the AT even though the AT crosses it...
So, apparently everyone's MMV and there are organized feeds happening on the trail itself. Or some kind of organized stuff on the trail itself. Otherwise.....
MuddyWaters
07-29-2017, 19:24
As long as it is at a parking lot or a trailhead that vehicles can drive to anyway, and the folks clean up after themselves, I am in agreement with this. I just can't see what the objection could possibly be...
Now, I have not seen much of whatever you define TM as on the actual AT itself. Not much at all. Nothing involving cooking or feeding, that's for darn sure. The only feeds I've seen are at fairly big gaps that normal cars can easily drive to, trailheads that cross paved roadways, and atop one bald that I don't really count as the AT even though the AT crosses it...
So, apparently everyone's MMV and there are organized feeds happening on the trail itself. Or some kind of organized stuff on the trail itself. Otherwise.....
What if you spent a year planning a trip...say JMT.
Weeks trying to get a permit...and you get lucky
Thousands of dollars in travel and gear and food costs
so you can go see spectacular wilderness, some of the best the US has
then you find groups of people set up in the wilderness, feeding people
feeding people that dont need food
Its happening right now
The segment of people that only want to SOCIALIZE, not actually hike is exploding on trails
and ruining peoples experiences
You dont need to eat food to be harmed, just being there ruins the wilderness experience
its all spillover of AT "trail magic"
propagated by facebook and internet groups and people that want to socialize, not experience wilderness
when does it end? Its already out of control
Go somewhere else. Somewhere rarely mentioned online. Don't mention it online.
Wayne
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What if you spent a year planning a trip...say JMT.
Weeks trying to get a permit...and you get lucky
Thousands of dollars in travel and gear and food costs
so you can go see spectacular wilderness, some of the best the US has
then you find groups of people set up in the wilderness, feeding people
feeding people that dont need food
Its happening right now
The segment of people that only want to SOCIALIZE, not actually hike is exploding on trails
and ruining peoples experiences
You dont need to eat food to be harmed, just being there ruins the wilderness experience
its all spillover of AT "trail magic"
propagated by facebook and internet groups and people that want to socialize, not experience wilderness
when does it end? Its already out of control
Not going to happen on the JMT. It's too remote. Don't have roads crossing it in 200+ miles. Might - very big might - see some type of feed at Tuolomne Meadows eventually but...UNLIKELY. And that's not on the JMT. The JMT is very different... THANKFULLY! JMT is a quotaed trail. The AT is not. JMT is in Wilderness Areas or NP's. Don't see many hiker feeds at GSMNP at Fontana, Newfound or Davenport Gap, BSP(saw two over the years), through the Whites, or in S NP either. Might get a free cookie or leftovers at one of the AT AMC huts with possibly a work for stay but nothing guaranteed. The AT is the longest continuous most notorious prolly the most social trail if not the U.S. the world. Expect a following of AT enthusiasts. You wanted the AT notoriety? We promoted it by sheer validation by anyone reading this on this site WB.
I don't recognize any entitled AT hikers assuming they are entitled to guaranteed feeds either. It's like a hiker box...or box of chocolates. Never know what you're going to get if you get anything. And, when you do you are grateful.
Again, trail magic is not synonymous with food. Maybe, that also is an AT phenomenon?...trail magic + food? I experience and hear about trail magic on other trails and no none has a knee jerk immediate misconception it is about food.
MuddyWaters
07-29-2017, 20:37
Not going to happen on the JMT. It's too remote. Don't have roads crossing it in 200+ miles. Might - very big might - see some type of feed at Tuolomne Meadows eventually but...UNLIKELY. And that's not on the JMT. The JMT is very different... THANKFULLY! JMT is a quotaed trail. The AT is not. JMT is in Wilderness Areas or NP's. Don't see many hiker feeds at GSMNP at Fontana, Newfound or Davenport Gap, BSP(saw two over the years), through the Whites, or in S NP either. Might get a free cookie or leftovers at one of the AT AMC huts with possibly a work for stay but nothing guaranteed. The AT is the longest continuous most notorious prolly the most social trail if not the U.S. the world. Expect a following of AT enthusiasts. You wanted the AT notoriety? We promoted it by sheer validation by anyone reading this on this site WB.
.
Already happening
Its not that remote. Many places are a days hike from trailhead
A group calling them selves " john muir taco co" , complete with banner and logo recently fed hikers at Glen Pass
Last yr it happened other areas
Copy cats have a way of exploding....
imscotty
07-29-2017, 20:56
Already happening
Its not that remote. Many places are a days hike from trailhead
A group calling them selves " john muir taco co" , complete with banner and logo recently fed hikers at Glen Pass
Last yr it happened other areas
Copy cats have a way of exploding....
:(
Can we at least all agree that Hiker Feeds do not belong in Wilderness Areas ?
The title of the thread is somewhat misleading.
ATC is not saying trail magic is bad. The original meaning of trail magic is something we celebrate.
We are trying to restore the original meaning of trail magic, which refers to small, spontaneous and unexpected acts of kindness; or serendipity (finding or being given that thing you lost and needed desperately and didn’t expect to find for days), or sometimes, experiences with nature that are so wonderful they take on a magical quality.
Yes, we are trying to discourage hiker feeds, especially in the backcountry, for the reasons a number of you have stated above. There is disagreement about whether they are appropriate at trailheads, where it’s not wild backcountry and there aren’t plants to be trampled.
There is little disagreement among those who take care of the A.T. and the land around it that unattended food is not good for the bigger picture of the Appalachian Trail, even if the vast majority of thru-hikers are enthralled with both the contents and the gesture of kindness behind it. Unattended food can have negative effects on animals, and even plants and soils if the “magic” causes people to congregate in large numbers or even small numbers in the same location over a period of time. And for those other than thru-hikers, even a well-maintained cooler can seem like an unwelcome human intrusion into the natural landscape.
I’m not sure, but it seems to me these feeds and coolers seem to eclipse the often quieter and more subtle, but in a way more extraordinary trail magic. When I hear hikers talking about soda, beer, and hamburgers being the pinnacle of their A.T. experience, then I feel they are really missing out.
While it could be debated whether there are enough or too many well-meaning people who provide feeds and leave coolers in the woods, it cannot be debated that the Appalachian Trail needs more volunteers to maintain and repair trails, privies, shelters and trailheads, clean trash and graffiti, perform boundary work, remove invasive species that are destroying our diverse and beautiful native plants and animals, provide education and outreach, develop policies on emerging threats, and advocate for the A.T.
If there are any trail angels reading this, I encourage you to join your local trail club and find out where your love for the Trail and hikers can be used to serve hikers and the Appalachian Trail in other more essential ways.
Check out the web page or Facebook page of your local trail club, or go to www.appalachiantrail.org/volunteer (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/volunteer).
:(
Can we at least all agree that Hiker Feeds do not belong in Wilderness Areas ?
i can totally see this becoming more and more of a thing- who can throw the biggest, most ridiculous hiker feed in the craziest place possible
"hey, some guy just had a Hawaiian pig roast for hikers at the summit of mt rogers.... i can top that, i'm going to do it in mahoosuc notch!!"
because like i keep saying, the people who do these things arent doing it for the hikers, or for the community or somehow for the trail, theyre doing it for themselves. they want to feel a part of it, they want to feel like theyve done something, like theyve contributed. but theyre doing it in a totally asinine way.
thing is, this was always the case. the first time someone organized and planned one of these things (and ive watched them be organized and planned right here on this website at times over the years) they were doing something asinine and for their own selfish motivations.
this should have been seen coming a million miles away.
MuddyWaters
07-29-2017, 21:28
i can totally see this becoming more and more of a thing- who can throw the biggest, most ridiculous hiker feed in the craziest place possible
"hey, some guy just had a Hawaiian pig roast for hikers at the summit of mt rogers.... i can top that, i'm going to do it in mahoosuc notch!!"
because like i keep saying, the people who do these things arent doing it for the hikers, or for the community or somehow for the trail, theyre doing it for themselves. they want to feel a part of it, they want to feel like theyve done something, like theyve contributed. but theyre doing it in a totally asinine way.
thing is, this was always the case. the first time someone organized and planned one of these things (and ive watched them be organized and planned right here on this website at times over the years) they were doing something asinine and for their own selfish motivations.
this should have been seen coming a million miles away.
+ Exactly
Its been seen coming, its the nature of many people and the internet
No one would object to 1 instance of a feed
But that 1 instance, is quickly exploding exponentially, everywhere. All popular trails.
You can see people asking about doing food on all the forums and facebook pages
To effect change, peoples attitudes toward it have to change
It needs to be ridiculed, looked down on
Exposed for what it is
An individual or groups desire for socializing, or facebook notoriety
Its never about the hikers
To insure it doesnt become
The title of the thread is somewhat misleading.
ATC is not saying trail magic is bad. The original meaning of trail magic is something we celebrate.
We are trying to restore the original meaning of trail magic, which refers to small, spontaneous and unexpected acts of kindness; or serendipity (finding or being given that thing you lost and needed desperately and didn’t expect to find for days), or sometimes, experiences with nature that are so wonderful they take on a magical quality.
Yes, we are trying to discourage hiker feeds, especially in the backcountry, for the reasons a number of you have stated above. There is disagreement about whether they are appropriate at trailheads, where it’s not wild backcountry and there aren’t plants to be trampled.
There is little disagreement among those who take care of the A.T. and the land around it that unattended food is not good for the bigger picture of the Appalachian Trail, even if the vast majority of thru-hikers are enthralled with both the contents and the gesture of kindness behind it. Unattended food can have negative effects on animals, and even plants and soils if the “magic” causes people to congregate in large numbers or even small numbers in the same location over a period of time. And for those other than thru-hikers, even a well-maintained cooler can seem like an unwelcome human intrusion into the natural landscape.
I’m not sure, but it seems to me these feeds and coolers seem to eclipse the often quieter and more subtle, but in a way more extraordinary trail magic. When I hear hikers talking about soda, beer, and hamburgers being the pinnacle of their A.T. experience, then I feel they are really missing out.
While it could be debated whether there are enough or too many well-meaning people who provide feeds and leave coolers in the woods, it cannot be debated that the Appalachian Trail needs more volunteers to maintain and repair trails, privies, shelters and trailheads, clean trash and graffiti, perform boundary work, remove invasive species that are destroying our diverse and beautiful native plants and animals, provide education and outreach, develop policies on emerging threats, and advocate for the A.T.
If there are any trail angels reading this, I encourage you to join your local trail club and find out where your love for the Trail and hikers can be used to serve hikers and the Appalachian Trail in other more essential ways.
Check out the web page or Facebook page of your local trail club, or go to www.appalachiantrail.org/volunteer (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/volunteer).
doesnt the ATC, more or less, throw something of a hiker feed of sorts yearly, if not more often, in harper's ferry?
Slo-go'en
07-29-2017, 23:12
I must say, some of my most vivid memories of hiking on the AT are those of being feed by strangers. The woods, the views, the ups and downs all become a blur, but the random encounters of people set up on the side of the road offering anything from donuts to burgers tend to be special.
Go somewhere else. Somewhere rarely mentioned online. Don't mention it online.
Wayne
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkExactly! If you don't like the social aspect of the A. T. or JMT or PCT go hike somewhere else, there are plenty of trails and you can have a different experience on every one of them. Just because some ppl don't want TM doesn't mean that those who do shouldn't be allowed to enjoy it. As the very annoyingly over used saying (but true one) goes, Hike Your Own Hike ppl! And stop judging everyone else's that don't do it the way you do! Sorry, I'm just sick to death of judgy, negative ppl that are always pissed off about everything!
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Alligator
07-30-2017, 03:17
Just when the bubble of thrus starts to spread out, word goes out on the interwebs about a feed and the bubble coalesces again. That's why feeds are a resource issue. When hikers are more spread out, the trail and the surrounding vegetation has a chance to recover. Feeds create larger, concentrated groups which can lead to resource damage. When there are multiple advertised feeds, hikers don't spread out. It's strange when you find yourself in the gap when this happens. You know there's more thrus out but you don't see them because they are timing their hike to hit the feeds.
Another way in which this happens is near specific geographic locations, like favored hostels.
ATC does not put on hiker feeds in Harpers Ferry. I don't recall that we ever have. During the last 3 years, there has been a pancake breakfast at the Flip Flop Festival in mid-April to early May put on by a local church or fraternal organization, with maybe 10-20 flip floppers attending, with friends and family and members of the community. We've had probably 0-2 nobos attending. Hot dogs and hamburgers and occasionally other food items have been for sale during the first day of the festival, but the event is not targeted for on-trail thru-hikers.
ATC's neighbors, the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, hosted a cookout for the Warrior Hikers for the first few years, and invited any other hikers who were around to attend, but did not do that this year.
The large number of feeds, combined with the growing party culture, does seem to be changing the trail experience, at least for northbound thru-hiker during a certain time frame. As those feeds are publicized and celebrated, hikers come to the Trail with different types of expectations about what their trail experience should be.
Here is the definition of the Appalachian Trail Experience (http://appalachiantrail.org/docs/trail-management-policies/a-t-experience-and-non-hiking-recreational-uses-1997.pdf?sfvrsn=2), as developed by the Appalachian Trail Conservancy Board of Managers in 1997:
The Appalachian Trail is, first and foremost, a footpath open to any and all who travel on foot. Its sole purpose as a recreational resource is to provide an opportunity for “travel on foot through the wild, scenic, wooded, pastoral, and culturally significant lands of the Appalachian Mountains.”
Except in isolated instances where historically recognized nonconforming uses are allowed by legislative authority, the footpath of the Trail should not be used for any other
purpose. This policy is intended to provide a framework within which other recreational uses will be evaluated. The Appalachian Trail Conservancy may develop additional policy direction for
specific uses as needed.
The lands acquired and managed for the Appalachian Trail, and lands designated within the A.T. management zone, not only protect the footpath itself, but provide primary protection of the
Trail experience. The Trail experience, as used in this context, is intended to represent the sum of opportunities that are available for those walking the Appalachian Trail to interact with the
wild, scenic, pastoral, cultural, and natural elements of the Appalachian Trail environment, unfettered and unimpeded by competing sights or sounds and in as direct and intimate a
manner as possible. Integral to this Trail experience are:
• Opportunities for observation, contemplation, enjoyment, and exploration of the natural world;
• A sense of remoteness and detachment from civilization;
• Opportunities to experience solitude; freedom; personal accomplishment; selfreliance; and self-discovery;
• A sense of being on the height of the land;
• Opportunities to experience the historic and pastoral elements of the surrounding countryside;
• A feeling of being part of the natural environment; and
• Opportunities for travel on foot, including opportunities for long-distance hiking. Other recreational uses of these lands should be considered compatible if they do not
require any modification of design and construction standards for the Trail footpath or Trail facilities; cause damage to the treadway or Trail facilities; require an engine or motor; or
adversely impact the Trail experience or the cultural, natural, or scenic resources of the Trail.
ATC is currently reviewing this definition and it's possible there may be some modifications. Regardless, it may be useful in this discussion.
Who is ATC? We are the organization that oversaw the creation of the building of the Appalachian Trail, and worked to have it become a unit of the National Park Service to help set the framework for the permanent protection of not only the footpath but surrounding lands--a wide enough corridor to help maintain the values above. We have been the lead agency for managing and protecting the Trail since its inception, working with local volunteer trail clubs, local agencies, and the National Park Service, which has overall administrative responsibility for the Trail.
I know many on this thread are well aware of all this, but there are some newcomers who may not be.
ScareBear
07-30-2017, 07:40
What if you spent a year planning a trip...say JMT.
Weeks trying to get a permit...and you get lucky
Thousands of dollars in travel and gear and food costs
so you can go see spectacular wilderness, some of the best the US has
then you find groups of people set up in the wilderness, feeding people
feeding people that dont need food
Its happening right now
The segment of people that only want to SOCIALIZE, not actually hike is exploding on trails
and ruining peoples experiences
You dont need to eat food to be harmed, just being there ruins the wilderness experience
its all spillover of AT "trail magic"
propagated by facebook and internet groups and people that want to socialize, not experience wilderness
when does it end? Its already out of control
Again, gaps that cars can drive to(legally) and trailheads at paved/graveled roads aren't my idea of "wilderness" in any way/shape/form and if there is a car there, it isn't going to ruin my experience in the least. Again, apparently YMMV, but it is hard for me to wrap my head around "how".
I just can't imagine thru's banging away on the internet in order to schedule their hike to coincide with feeds in such a number as to cause or effect any "bubble". Or banging away on the internet once their hike starts in order to time their hike to hit the feeds. But, maybe it is a real "thing" and is the reason for "bubbles" or their size/length. Interesting theory....
I think we can all agree that other than some random act of individualized isolated kindness, there doesn't need to be any disturbance of the wilderness with feeds, coolers or people handing out cookies with a religious message on the wrapper. Period. I am in full agreement with this concept. If you aren't hiking, stay out of the wilderness with your "kindness". I may have lobbed some rocks at the Taco Co....or at least gave them a piece of my mind, had I been there.
But, I've had my wilderness experiences more often disturbed/damaged/interrupted by other hikers. The list of offenders and their offenses is almost endless, but none involve TM. Pet Peeve #124=If you are going to go to the effort and trouble of packing beers into the wilderness, yet believe throwing your empties in the fire(even crushed, "dude") is a good idea, please don't be surprised to find those cans inside your tent in the morning. Soot/ash covered and all. Sharp edges and all. It's your can "dude".
Yeah, TM offends me not. A-holes who have no respect for my outdoor experience in the wilderness do. Again, it's never involved TM, so I am now CERTAIN YMWV, just sayin....
ATC does not put on hiker feeds in Harpers Ferry. I don't recall that we ever have. During the last 3 years, there has been a pancake breakfast at the Flip Flop Festival in mid-April to early May put on by a local church or fraternal organization, with maybe 10-20 flip floppers attending, with friends and family and members of the community. We've had probably 0-2 nobos attending. Hot dogs and hamburgers and occasionally other food items have been for sale during the first day of the festival, but the event is not targeted for on-trail thru-hikers.
with all due respect i think its worth considering whether or not what you describe above, in spite of the level of attendance and type of attendance, is similar enough to a hiker feed that holding those events while simultaneously bemoaning hiker feeds is sending a mixed message.
imscotty
07-30-2017, 08:31
with all due respect i think its worth considering whether or not what you describe above, in spite of the level of attendance and type of attendance, is similar enough to a hiker feed that holding those events while simultaneously bemoaning hiker feeds is sending a mixed message.
Tdoczi,
A church Pancake breakfast is hardly the same thing as parking yourself at the end of the footbridge that crosses the Potomac handing out 'free trail magic' to thru-hikers. There is a difference between arguing a point and being argumentative.
Tdoczi,
A church Pancake breakfast is hardly the same thing as parking yourself at the end of the footbridge that crosses the Potomac handing out 'free trail magic' to thru-hikers. There is a difference between arguing a point and being argumentative.
i didnt say it was the same, i said it is worth considering whether it is similar enough. does it being in town really make it THAT much different?
i'm ok enough with the ones in town, not so much with ones on the trail. but, do you not think that the people doing it on the trail get the idea from seeing it go on in towns? i dont think i'm being argumentative by pointing out that possibility.
Puddlefish
07-30-2017, 09:17
Go somewhere else. Somewhere rarely mentioned online. Don't mention it online.
Wayne
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If I can ever get my knee and foot working correctly again, I may just do this. For my first distance hike, I wasn't nearly confident enough to manage the logistics myself. The guides and the apps really make the major known trails the safer, easier choice.
Exactly! If you don't like the social aspect of the A. T. or JMT or PCT go hike somewhere else, there are plenty of trails and you can have a different experience on every one of them. Just because some ppl don't want TM doesn't mean that those who do shouldn't be allowed to enjoy it. As the very annoyingly over used saying (but true one) goes, Hike Your Own Hike ppl! And stop judging everyone else's that don't do it the way you do! Sorry, I'm just sick to death of judgy, negative ppl that are always pissed off about everything!
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I hiked 1300 miles of the AT in 1976 and never encountered a hiker feed. I did experience some true trail magic. My 1976 AT experience was totally different than my 2010 AT thru hike experience. Why should I avoid hiking the AT? Why can't the people who want to do these hiker feeds hike other trails? I see a disconnect between seeking a wilderness experience coupled with a party atmosphere.
Sarcasm the elf
07-30-2017, 12:09
I hiked 1300 miles of the AT in 1976 and never encountered a hiker feed. I did experience some true trail magic. My 1976 AT experience was totally different than my 2010 AT thru hike experience. Why should I avoid hiking the AT? Why can't the people who want to do these hiker feeds hike other trails? I see a disconnect between seeking a wilderness experience coupled with a party atmosphere.
This.
Thank you for putting it so succinctly.
I just can't imagine thru's banging away on the internet in order to schedule their hike to coincide with feeds in such a number as to cause or effect any "bubble". Or banging away on the internet once their hike starts in order to time their hike to hit the feeds. But, maybe it is a real "thing" and is the reason for "bubbles" or their size/length. Interesting theory....
....
Believe it, it happens. Word gets out about a hiker feed/party/etc and hikers down the trail rearrange their hike to attend. I can think of several occasions where people attempting a thru hike either slowed down or increased their mileage in order to attend a hiker feed. There was birthday party along the BRP that was attended by close to 100, a church sponsored dinner at the hostel in DWG where hikers stayed an extra day or two in order to attend, fourth of July party in NY.
I hiked 1300 miles of the AT in 1976 and never encountered a hiker feed. I did experience some true trail magic. My 1976 AT experience was totally different than my 2010 AT thru hike experience. Why should I avoid hiking the AT? Why can't the people who want to do these hiker feeds hike other trails? I see a disconnect between seeking a wilderness experience coupled with a party atmosphere.Why should "they" have to hike other trails? The A. T. is known world wide for its social aspect so why should "they" have to hike other trails so you can have it the way YOU like it? You like to have a pure, wilderness experience and good for you but you're not going to to get that on the A. T., that's just not how that trail is. But there are MANY that are. If you're unhappy with the way the A. T. is choose one of these many that will make YOU happy.
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Why should "they" have to hike other trails? The A. T. is known world wide for its social aspect so why should "they" have to hike other trails so you can have it the way YOU like it? You like to have a pure, wilderness experience and good for you but you're not going to to get that on the A. T., that's just not how that trail is. But there are MANY that are. If you're unhappy with the way the A. T. is choose one of these many that will make YOU happy.
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No I am unhappy with the way the AT has become. It doesn't have to be this way. It was not like this years ago. This is a recent development and can be minimized.
MuddyWaters
07-30-2017, 12:24
No I am unhappy with the way the AT has become. It doesn't have to be this way. It was not like this years ago. This is a recent development and can be minimized.
I wish it were so
I think its a lost cause
Killed by popularity
Being closely followed by other trails as well
Believe it, it happens. Word gets out about a hiker feed/party/etc and hikers down the trail rearrange their hike to attend. I can think of several occasions where people attempting a thru hike either slowed down or increased their mileage in order to attend a hiker feed. There was birthday party along the BRP that was attended by close to 100, a church sponsored dinner at the hostel in DWG where hikers stayed an extra day or two in order to attend, fourth of July party in NY.
not a hiker feed per se, but perhaps the best example of the behavior youre speaking of is trail days.
everyone drops everything one way or another and makes sure theyre in damascus. well not the few smart ones and/or those who dont care.
i spent a night in a shelter in VA during this past trail days with 2 thrus who decided to skip it. all of their friends werent around because they had all figured out a way to go. they were actually sort of surprised to see each toher and exchanged mutual "i thought you went to trails days..." with each other.
No I am unhappy with the way the AT has become. It doesn't have to be this way. It was not like this years ago. This is a recent development and can be minimized.My point is, no one has the right and I personally find it ridiculous when ppl try to force changes because of their own wants and desires. If I personally don't like the way a place is I don't go there. I don't pitch a fit trying to get it changed just so it suits ME. I wish ppl would stop trying to make ppl look bad because they enjoy a different experience. Either go when it's quiet and there is no bubble, which is what my husband and I do and for the record we have never experienced or even seen a hiker feed when we're out there, or don't go at all. You've thru hiked it twice, you've had your experiences, let others have theirs.
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Two of us plan to do some trail magic Saturday. We will likely carry a pair of loppers, a saw, couple of swing blades and maybe a fire rake or shovel.
Thank you!
How many of us remember when TM was two elderly people with a five gallon cooler of some type of juice, or 2-3 big thermos's of coffee and a Snickers Candy Bar? You used your own cup and only took 1 Snickers while you took a break and talked to the folks. When you were done, you thanked the folks and walked away happy with a sugar buzz.
I think I met them, nice folks :)
ldsailor
07-30-2017, 12:51
with all due respect i think its worth considering whether or not what you describe above, in spite of the level of attendance and type of attendance, is similar enough to a hiker feed that holding those events while simultaneously bemoaning hiker feeds is sending a mixed message.
The article I referenced in the original post states that hiker feeds, if they are to take place, should be held in trail towns. Harper's Ferry is definitely a trail town far enough away from the trail to not impact the trail. Whether the ATC throws a hiker feed or not ("hiker feed" being defined variously by hikers and forum members) should not be a point of contention. It follows the ATC's guidance as described in the article.
Lone Wolf
07-30-2017, 13:11
This is a recent development and can be minimized.
unfortunately it won't get better. grafitti, carving, filthy/trashed shelter areas will get worse
The article I referenced in the original post states that hiker feeds, if they are to take place, should be held in trail towns. Harper's Ferry is definitely a trail town far enough away from the trail to not impact the trail. Whether the ATC throws a hiker feed or not ("hiker feed" being defined variously by hikers and forum members) should not be a point of contention. It follows the ATC's guidance as described in the article.
you know the saying monkey see, monkey do?
sometimes the monkeys dont realize that what they are doing is not the same things as the monkeys they are copying.
whether or not we think feeds thrown in towns, by the ATC or anyone else, are ok or not (i think theyre fine) its hard to argue, i think, that it is not where the people doing it at trail heads or out in the woods got the idea from.
i know it seems to be an incredibly unpopular way to look at the world in today's society, but sometimes we have to stop and think about how others in the future (near and distant) are going to misinterpret and build upon our actions in ways we wouldnt approve of.
Why should "they" have to hike other trails? The A. T. is known world wide for its social aspect so why should "they" have to hike other trails so you can have it the way YOU like it? You like to have a pure, wilderness experience and good for you but you're not going to to get that on the A. T., that's just not how that trail is. But there are MANY that are. If you're unhappy with the way the A. T. is choose one of these many that will make YOU happy.
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Noooo! They should stay where they are at. Stick to the AT and complain endlessly about how it is. Enough drama on the AT. Don't need the same folks complaining about things on other trails and how other trails don't measure up to the AT. Thankfully other trails aren't the AT. ;)
Already happening
Its not that remote. Many places are a days hike from trailhead
A group calling them selves " john muir taco co" , complete with banner and logo recently fed hikers at Glen Pass
Last yr it happened other areas
Copy cats have a way of exploding....
Hmm, R U sure about that MW? Should the NPS gain knowledge of a hiker feed, no less promoting a company name, commercial logo, and banner being set up at Glen Pass in a NP(SEKI) I can see that quickly coming to a close. NPS has jurisdiction. The shenanigans and drama of the AT doesn't fly everywhere!
Very much disagree with you MW with the JMT not being that remote particularly compared to the AT Interstate Hwy.
The title of the thread is somewhat misleading.
ATC is not saying trail magic is bad. The original meaning of trail magic is something we celebrate.
We are trying to restore the original meaning of trail magic, which refers to small, spontaneous and unexpected acts of kindness; or serendipity (finding or being given that thing you lost and needed desperately and didn’t expect to find for days), or sometimes, experiences with nature that are so wonderful they take on a magical quality.
Yes, we are trying to discourage hiker feeds, especially in the backcountry, for the reasons a number of you have stated above. There is disagreement about whether they are appropriate at trailheads, where it’s not wild backcountry and there aren’t plants to be trampled.
There is little disagreement among those who take care of the A.T. and the land around it that unattended food is not good for the bigger picture of the Appalachian Trail, even if the vast majority of thru-hikers are enthralled with both the contents and the gesture of kindness behind it. Unattended food can have negative effects on animals, and even plants and soils if the “magic” causes people to congregate in large numbers or even small numbers in the same location over a period of time. And for those other than thru-hikers, even a well-maintained cooler can seem like an unwelcome human intrusion into the natural landscape.
I’m not sure, but it seems to me these feeds and coolers seem to eclipse the often quieter and more subtle, but in a way more extraordinary trail magic. When I hear hikers talking about soda, beer, and hamburgers being the pinnacle of their A.T. experience, then I feel they are really missing out.
While it could be debated whether there are enough or too many well-meaning people who provide feeds and leave coolers in the woods, it cannot be debated that the Appalachian Trail needs more volunteers to maintain and repair trails, privies, shelters and trailheads, clean trash and graffiti, perform boundary work, remove invasive species that are destroying our diverse and beautiful native plants and animals, provide education and outreach, develop policies on emerging threats, and advocate for the A.T.
If there are any trail angels reading this, I encourage you to join your local trail club and find out where your love for the Trail and hikers can be used to serve hikers and the Appalachian Trail in other more essential ways.
Check out the web page or Facebook page of your local trail club, or go to www.appalachiantrail.org/volunteer (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/volunteer).
Of course Laurie but the drama queens have to have their debate. TEEJ very early on in the thread posted the ATC's opinion of TM. Shame you have to say(write) the same thing. It will still be ignored by some.
Someone left a box of food for trail magic at West Carry Pond lean-to last summer. When we arrived the box was all trash and was torn open or left open and the trash blowing around the site. That was the most trashed site we saw from MA to ME. We picked up everything and tried to secure the trash box.
TJ aka Teej
07-30-2017, 14:42
ATC is currently reviewing this definition and it's possible there may be some modifications.
If you can improve on that, I'd be wicked impressed, Laurie.
Noooo! They should stay where they are at. Stick to the AT and complain endlessly about how it is. Enough drama on the AT. Don't need the same folks complaining about things on other trails and how other trails don't measure up to the AT. Thankfully other trails aren't the AT. ;)
Unfortunately it looks like the same is happening on the PCT and based on facebook it looks like groupies are invading the CT as well.
My point is, no one has the right and I personally find it ridiculous when ppl try to force changes because of their own wants and desires. If I personally don't like the way a place is I don't go there. I don't pitch a fit trying to get it changed just so it suits ME. I wish ppl would stop trying to make ppl look bad because they enjoy a different experience. Either go when it's quiet and there is no bubble, which is what my husband and I do and for the record we have never experienced or even seen a hiker feed when we're out there, or don't go at all. You've thru hiked it twice, you've had your experiences, let others have theirs.
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I am not trying to force anything on anyone but I am not going to go away. I have been a life member of ATC for over 40 years and have been volunteering on ATC trail crews for over 25 years. I feel I have some investment in the AT and should and will do what I can to preserve and protect the AT. I find it ridiculous for someone to tell me to go hike another trail. When the folks posting videos on Youtube following the bubble glorifying trail parties and "safety meetings" start posting videos of building side hill with the Konnarock trail crew or helping the local trail maintainer clean out fire pits and haul out trash perhaps I will be open to a different kind of trail experience.
I am not trying to force anything on anyone but I am not going to go away. I have been a life member of ATC for over 40 years and have been volunteering on ATC trail crews for over 25 years. I feel I have some investment in the AT and should and will do what I can to preserve and protect the AT. I find it ridiculous for someone to tell me to go hike another trail. When the folks posting videos on Youtube following the bubble glorifying trail parties and "safety meetings" start posting videos of building side hill with the Konnarock trail crew or helping the local trail maintainer clean out fire pits and haul out trash perhaps I will be open to a different kind of trail experience.And I find it ridiculous that you feel it's ok to tell others to go hike somewhere else if they don't hike they way you want them to but then get indignant when the same is suggested to you! I'm a United States Army Combat Veteran, I don't know it you are but if so you should be ashamed. Freedom is what this country is supposed to be based on!
Annnnnd this is exactly why I NEVER get involved in these debates, they will never be resolved because most ppl don't want to try to compromise and just get along and be darned happy! Geeez, be happy you're still healthy enough to hike and just go do it. If I feel the need for an argument I've got a teenager...... Although I've taught him to be more reasonable and accepting of ppl than many adults I see.
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Noooo! They should stay where they are at. Stick to the AT and complain endlessly about how it is. Enough drama on the AT. Don't need the same folks complaining about things on other trails and how other trails don't measure up to the AT. Thankfully other trails aren't the AT. ;)Well as long at they're not complaining to ME out on the trail! I'll be out there to enjoy my hike TM or no TM I really don't care as long as long as the hikers I meet are happy hikers. [emoji3]
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imscotty
07-30-2017, 17:05
[QUOTE=Rabit;2162293Annnnnd this is exactly why I NEVER get involved in these debates, they will never be resolved because most ppl don't want to try to compromise and just get along and be darned happy!
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Rabit,
Perhaps we can compromise and just get along and be happy by agreeing to follow the guidance from the organization whose mission it is to "preserve and manage the Appalachian Trail – ensuring that its vast natural beauty and priceless cultural heritage can be shared and enjoyed today, tomorrow, and for centuries to come. "
The ATC is encoring people to move away from the large organized on-trail hiker-feeds and back towards the original meaning of the words 'trail magic' (small spontaneous acts of kindness). Hopefully that is something we can all get behind.
Soilman,
Thank you for volunteering to help maintain and preserve the AT. Now that's real trail magic.
Offshore
07-30-2017, 17:15
If you feed the hikers they will soon become conditioned and expect to BE fed. That may become aggressive if not fed when they expect. The only choice then is to trap and transfer.
Don't forget the ear tag and DNA sample.
Rabit,
Perhaps we can compromise and just get along and be happy by agreeing to follow the guidance from the organization whose mission it is to "preserve and manage the Appalachian Trail – ensuring that its vast natural beauty and priceless cultural heritage can be shared and enjoyed today, tomorrow, and for centuries to come. "
The ATC is encoring people to move away from the large organized on-trail hiker-feeds and back towards the original meaning of the words 'trail magic' (small spontaneous acts of kindness). Hopefully that is something we can all get behind.
Soilman,
Thank you for volunteering to help maintain and preserve the AT. Now that's real trail magic.
It should absolutely be preserved, if you knew me you'd know I wholeheartedly believe in preserving our planet. My West Virginia friends don't call me their California Tree Hugger for no reason. BUT I also firmly believe that everyone has a right to their own opinions and they're own way of life. I have been planning for an A. T. Thru Hike for years and not just because I want to enjoy nature and the hike but ALSO because the A. T. is what it is, a fun, social experience and TM is part of that..... Which is why I chose it.... It would really stink if when I'm finally able to in 2019 that the A. T. has been turned into every other long distance trail. It's the only one like it. I have no interest in thru hiking the PCT, JMT, CDT, any other "T" trail for my first and possibly only thru hike because they're NOT as social as the A. T. I think that every one of the trail maintainers are awesome for what they do, I do not condone trash, graffiti, habituating bears, spreading disease in our water sources, etc.. I just don't believe that TM/Hiker feeds are the cause of all that but the acts /deeds of careless and lazy /immature hikers that don't care AND let's not forget locals that come to some areas to party on the weekends, ie : Dismal Falls and leave they're trash and beer cans Which is PART of why trail maintainers are needed and are amazing!
I'm just going to agree to disagree and bow out of this argument, er, discussion [emoji849]
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The ATC is encoring people to move away from the large organized on-trail hiker-feeds and back towards the original meaning of the words 'trail magic' (small spontaneous acts of kindness). Hopefully that is something we can all
Seems like they are ignoring the elephant in the room.
Unattended coolers have long been discouraged-- nothing new or controversial there.
But feeds "especially especially in the backcountry"?
With the special focus on those in the backcountry, the ATC gets to have it both ways. They make a point (kind of sort of) but make sure not to offend all the folks providing "magic" at or near intersecting roads
Ok, so it's not an elephant in the room -- it's a pickup at a trailhead or grill at a nearby parking lot.
That said, I will readily admit I may be missing something.
Can anyone clue me in as to the percent (and number) of these "Feeds" that a typical thru hiker will encounter in the backcountry -- as opposed to at or ver near a road crossing?
Seems like they are ignoring the elephant in the room.
Unattended coolers have long been discouraged-- nothing new or controversial there.
But feeds "especially especially in the backcountry"?
With the special focus on those in the backcountry, the ATC gets to have it both ways. They make a point (kind of sort of) but make sure not to offend all the folks providing "magic" at or near intersecting roads
Ok, so it's not an elephant in the room -- it's a pickup at a trailhead or grill at a nearby parking lot.
That said, I will readily admit I may be missing something.
Can anyone clue me in as to the percent (and number) of these "Feeds" that a typical thru hiker will encounter in the backcountry -- as opposed to at or ver near a road crossing?
more than 99% of feeds, give aways, etc will be at towns or road crossings
more than 99% of feeds, give aways, etc will be at towns or road crossings
now people leaving their garbage at shelters and calling it trail magic to make themselves feel better is…..
Offshore
07-30-2017, 18:05
To relay my own bias, I'm a section hiker have found there are a small but sizable number of these self titled "trail angels" are more accurately thru hiker groupies.
I think you've hit it perfectly. I find the "groupies" to both creepy and a little sad - sort of a combination of stalkerish people living life vicariously. It also contributes to that thru hiker entitlement that is so apparent in a minority (thankfully) of thrus. Take the money and give it to a food bank if you really want to make a difference. A thru hike is basically a vacation and if you can't afford it or are not prepared, its your own fault.
That said, I do a lot of day and weekend hiking on the AT in NJ and i do provide trail magic when I can - but it's been things like rides to town/hostels in pouring rain or extreme heat, treating heat exhaustion, and just today, helping a section hiker replan his hike itinerary with my Guthook app because he didn't know that the Vernon, NJ church hostel and the Murray property were closed and camping is limited in NJ for the most part to shelters. Ironically, I actually had a thru offer to buy me dinner a couple of years ago. I had taken him to get medical attention and then to a pharmacy to get a prescription filled before dropping him off back at the trail. While waiting for the prescription, we ate dinner in town and he offered to pay for mine (this was now about 2.5 hours of trail magic going on). I thanked him and said just pay it forward. I'm by no means special or alone in doing this stuff - there are a lot of people out there helping out other hikers truly in need. You just won't see canopies and shirts emblazoned with "Trail Angel".
JumpMaster Blaster
07-30-2017, 18:54
I'm in agreement with the ATC. Hiker feeds and unattended "trail magic" coolers a lot of negative effects on the trail. They cause trash, clog up trailheads, and create a sense of entitlement and expectation of freebees among newer hikers.
To relay my own bias, I'm a section hiker have found there are a small but sizable number of these self titled "trail angels" are more accurately thru hiker groupies. On several occasions I've been deliberately stopped by people who offered me some sort of unsolicited freebie, only to have them renege the offer when they found out I was a section hiker. This is something that I find incredibly insulting and has soured my opinion of hiker feeds in general. What they're actually doing is interrupting my day just to let me know that my hike isn't worthy of their help
and while I'm normally a very polite person in these cases I'm perfectly happy to let them know where they can shove that free hotdog.
I have never had this happen to me, but if it ever does I would politely explain to them that their refusing to feed a random hiker (me vs long distance hikers) is in fact discrimination and goes against everything the ATC stands for. I would also inform them that I am a member of the ATC and what the ATC's stance is on hiker feeds. Then I would go on and on about attempting a thru isn't a forced event, that it's a vacation, and maybe they should volunteer to feed the trail maintainers or the homeless instead.
My very first year hiking the AT I inquired about providing trail magic. It didn't take very many trips to realize what trail magic really is. Someone at a trailhead offering me a water, or to take my trash, or give me a ride into town is pure magic.
And I find it ridiculous that you feel it's ok to tell others to go hike somewhere else if they don't hike they way you want them to but then get indignant when the same is suggested to you! I'm a United States Army Combat Veteran, I don't know it you are but if so you should be ashamed. Freedom is what this country is supposed to be based on!
Annnnnd this is exactly why I NEVER get involved in these debates, they will never be resolved because most ppl don't want to try to compromise and just get along and be darned happy! Geeez, be happy you're still healthy enough to hike and just go do it. If I feel the need for an argument I've got a teenager...... Although I've taught him to be more reasonable and accepting of ppl than many adults I see.
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Let me make my position clear. I have nothing against hiker feeds. What concerns me is the shifting of the trail culture from people wanting to get outside and enjoy nature to people looking for a party atmosphere. My belief is that hiker feeds help to instill an entitlement attitude in some hikers that can result in bad behavior. Where in this country can you get free stuff for just walking? How many services have been lost over the past couple of years as a result of this behavior? I have suggested over the years if people truly want to do trail magic why not do some trail maintenance or join a trail club or ATC where their time and/or money would be truly appreciated. At the end of the day a free burger and Mt Dew is not going to impact your trail experience as much as a sustainable tread or a path clear of blowdowns. I appreciate your service to the country and I hope you have a good hike. The AT is truly a social trail in that you make incredible bonds with total strangers in short period of time. It doesn't have to be another South Padre Island or Panama City Beach.
JumpMaster Blaster
07-30-2017, 19:01
Why? Some parts are tougher than others, depending on our own capabilities and preferences. A couple of days on the rocks in Pennsylvania may dampen the spirits, but the rocks don't last forever. Some trail angel providing cold drinks and cold packs to wrap around our knees or ankles in those rocks would be very salutary. There are usually disheartening parts of any significant endeavor, but completing such an undertaking is generally rewarding. Advising people to stop a hike when some part of that hike is unpleasant is defeatist.
There is no requirement for people to produce trail magic. There should be no expectation of receiving trail magic. It's magic, not an obligation for angels or a right for hikers.
And there shouldn't be a prerequisite to obtaining such magic. "Oh, I'm sorry your knee is swollen and your water bladder burst. These ice packs and sodas are only for thru hikers. Perhaps you can get some water in a few days when you get back to your car."
Someone left a box of food for trail magic at West Carry Pond lean-to last summer. When we arrived the box was all trash and was torn open or left open and the trash blowing around the site. That was the most trashed site we saw from MA to ME. We picked up everything and tried to secure the trash box.
Mary-Ellen is doing it this summer, too. There is a note kindly asking hikers to carry away their trash and dont gobble up all the goodies. Leave some for your brother. The group we were with did exactly that. Surprised there isnt a bear hanging out at that shelter, yet.
JumpMaster Blaster
07-30-2017, 19:19
The AT thru hike is not something unique in the course of human civilization but practiced by many cultures throughout history and into pre-history in different forms and under different names. What it is not is a hike, nor a vacation. It is to borrow a term a pilgrimage. It is life transformational and a rite of passage. It in it's context is not done alone, though it can be if one can persevere, but to live off of kindness of heaven and fellow beings. As such trail magic is ingrained into human culture because it is for the good of society and humanity. As such trail magic is an integral part of the AT thru, it is a needed component and that alone has had many thru hikers faith in humanity restored (or so I've heard that phrase uttered many times on trail by AT thru hikers.
Why section hikers/day hikers don't count? Well if they are on a pilgrimage (again borrowing a word), it does. But for most they are on a vacation, or a weekend warrior (a vacation, just another form). They are just a day away from returning to society and whatever food and the like they desire. They are not giving up much and the addition of trail magic does not have the same meaning, as it doesn't matter much for a short term outing.
But for a thru it means a lot, an incredibly lot. And that is the life changing element that so many people need in their lives to become the person that can understand what it means to give and humbly receive. To help them become the trail angels of society today.
Will it stay with the AT, really I don't know, as regulation comes about, good will, and kind hearts, departs for more fertile ground and the AT is experiencing a trend towards the call for regulation.
Is the system of good will and trail magic perfect, no but what is. If the problems overcome the benefits, and people take advantage of the system, and the appreciation is not there, the good will and loving hearts will depart and the trail will be a far different place then it is.
You want to go on a life changing event? Go overseas on a mission, join the military and defend your country and freedom. Your thru hike IS exactly a vacation. You're not a POW. You're not on some holy mission. Your elitist attitude is everything that paints a lot of hikers in a bad light. I (like many other vets here) can tell y9ou a thing or two about "selfless service". You have none of that. Unless you are out hiking to raise money for cancer/kids/ etc, you are undertaking nothing but a SELFISH journey. A vacation.
Let me also remind you of the fact that the original intent of the AT was to get people to become one with nature and to leave the worry and stress of the cities behind for periods of time, NOT to be hiked straight through, and definitely not to be used as a personal "look at me, look at what I conquered/FKT" challenge.
I love your attempt to marginalize the day/section hikers, but it really falls flat. I really wonder about a couple things: 1) how many former thru hikers are card carrying ATC members, or are active in trail clubs, 2) how many ATC members are "just" day or section hikers, and 3) how many business owners that provide services to ALL hikers have never thru hiked.
Do you even realize the number of thru hikers (and those that attempt) pale in comparison to the amount of people that use the trail that aren't?
You really act as if the trail was specifically built and designed for thru hikers. It wasn't.
You really act as if a thru hiker has gone on some life or death mission. They haven't. They went on vacation. Spend a couple combat tours overseas and then get back to me with all that "for the greater good of mankind" BS.
Many section hikers don't have the time or opportunity to put life on hold for 4-6 months and go on vacation.
Lone Wolf
07-30-2017, 19:57
totally agree with Blaster
Now that was harsh, JMB!
Thru hiking isn't as hard and isn't heroic like some of the things you listed -- I kind of think you should have put having a baby on that list for even better effect --but it counts as something special, I think.
Definitely more than a vacation.
But regardless of your or my opinion on that, it is a simple fact than many good people have gone out of the way to treat thru hikes rather well. Because they were thru hiking.
On my hike, those people included a small town that opened up their community center to us, a church that build a special cabin for us, a family that was known for 1000 miles to take great joy in offering every thru hiker that passed by an icecream cone (me more), a monastery that welcomed thru hikers with a meal and bed, and so many more.
If you want to demonize those people for putting all their efforts elsewhere, I would be shocked. If you want to say that they could have spent their energy better elsewhere, I might agree. But I suspect that you most probably would have just said "thank you" if you were there.
And perhaps even conclude that all those good people were thinking more like Starchild than you might want to admit.
:(
Can we at least all agree that Hiker Feeds do not belong in Wilderness Areas ?
Yes. We could. But then the earth would fly out of it's orbit.
Wayne
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I would much rather see less hiker feeds if it meant more trail maintenance and maintainers. A thru-hike is a vacation. Its purely selfish and thats OK. Earl Schaeffer did it for personal reasons, but he was recovering from WW2. He sacrificed before he went on his healing journey. Not everyone can say that. For the majority of hikers, its not about the healing, its about what they need to suufer to complete the hike. Think about that. Earl Schaefer suffered, then took a hike to heal. Todays hikers, the hike is the suffering. It doesnt make them special. By comparison, its pathetic.
Traffic Jam
07-30-2017, 20:25
I would much rather see less hiker feeds if it meant more trail maintenance and maintainers. A thru-hike is a vacation. Its purely selfish and thats OK. Earl Schaeffer did it for personal reasons, but he was recovering from WW2. He sacrificed before he went on his healing journey. Not everyone can say that. For the majority of hikers, its not about the healing, its about what they need to suufer to complete the hike. Think about that. Earl Schaefer suffered, then took a hike to heal. Todays hikers, the hike is the suffering. It doesnt make them special. By comparison, its pathetic.
Yep, and day hikers and section hikers may have access to all the food they can eat when they're not hiking, but they are also fulfilling responsibilities and obligations at home, many of which are difficult. Their time spent in the woods is just as important to their spiritual well-being and sense of fulfillment as it is to a thru hiker. For many of us, it's the only thing that gets us through real life.
(geez, I don't even know what thread I'm in anymore. Does anyone carry a compass?)
Sarcasm the elf
07-30-2017, 20:41
Yep, and day hikers and section hikers may have access to all the food they can eat when they're not hiking, but they are also fulfilling responsibilities and obligations at home, many of which are difficult. Their time spent in the woods is just as important to their spiritual well-being and sense of fulfillment as it is to a thru hiker. For many of us, it's the only thing that gets us through real life.
(geez, I don't even know what thread I'm in anymore. Does anyone carry a compass?)
On every trip since I was eleven.
(Though this is a replacement, I lost the first
one between highschool and college.)
39976
Curious G
07-30-2017, 21:00
So...this is my first ever post. Bear with me. I'm just a section hiker. First question: what is a lasher? I did up too Va this spring. Second question: if the magic issue is about letting people do what they want then isn't letting hikers hike mean leaving them on there own? We drove up to the museum when I stopped and checked it out. And I read up on the trail first. I missed where on here on in my research it say that the trail is for big picnics or parties etc. I know this is a hot button thing but isn't the policy the policy? I did pass people giving stuff away and some of them seem upset when I didn't stop. I didn't need anything. I was unsure and thought they selling snacks etc. I read the thread and can't figure out what the is the rule? Thanks. That is my second question I guess. I wanted to quote the Rabbit but couldn't figure it out. Third question is why should hikers hike someplace else? The trail is supposed to be highly social? I'm missing something and don't want to debate just learn thanks.
Long Ass Section Hiker. LASH'er
Traffic Jam
07-30-2017, 21:04
On every trip since I was eleven.
(Though this is a replacement, I lost the first
one between highschool and college.)
39976
Then maybe you can point me in the right direction. Is this the Just a Hiker thread, the Move, it's My Shelter thread, or the Don't Feed the Hiker thread?
Curious G
07-30-2017, 21:19
Thanks! I am a lasher and didn't know it I guess. Down here we all are and nobody is going to roll up and feed you. I gave the AT trail a try cause the towns were so close. Not like here either. But it lacks something in getting away from it all.
more than 99% of feeds, give aways, etc will be at towns or road crossings
If that is the case, why is the ATC especially concerned with the less than 1% P-- rather than the 99%+ that have changed the thru hiking experience so dramatically.
I am thinking they really are, but just don't have the stones to say feeds in towns and at road crossings have a great impact.
Sarcasm the elf
07-30-2017, 23:05
Then maybe you can point me in the right direction. Is this the Just a Hiker thread, the Move, it's My Shelter thread, or the Don't Feed the Hiker thread?
It's all a lead-up to the rollout of our new "You kids get off my lawn!" Sub forum.
The Green Mountain Club, who is the maintaining group for the AT in Vermont, is sponsoring "hiker trail magic day" August 5th. Members will be at many trailheads in Vermont passing out trail magic. Hope they will be promoting the concept of volunteering for trail maintenance too.
rocketsocks
07-31-2017, 09:12
Finally a step in the right direction by preserving and protecting the intellectual property (so to speak) know as "trail magic"
Thankfully, feeds in the backcountry are not as dominant as they were when we first started developing the trail magic suggestions 10-12 years ago.
The thought then was that feeds in developed and hardened areas would not have a significant impact in comparison to the backcountry feeds at remote and pristine sites, where plants were being trampled, soil was being compacted, and those who did not want to participate could not avoid the large gatherings, especially at overnight sites. Volunteers sometimes had to clean up a big mess and carry out trash a significant distance. I do think the suggestions have helped with that.
ATC does recognize that the 2007 "suggestions" do not go far enough in addressing the feeds of today and the social repercussions. (In fact, this is one of the main reasons we haven't promoted the 2007 suggestions more aggressively.) Feeds have proliferated far beyond what few people could have imagined 10 years ago. In 2007, the number of thru-hikers had been declining for 7 years in a row.
We are working on providing more guidance, but it is challenging, with divergent opinions and perspectives among ATC leadership, as well as volunteer maintaining clubs, agencies, and A.T. Community partners.
I believe we'll get there, though.
WhiteBlaze.net members (with some crossover with ALDHA) contributed to the development of the 2007 suggestions, mostly indirectly, but the language of at least one suggestion was crafted by one of WBs most active members.
SawnieRobertson
07-31-2017, 11:07
If you have been around very long, you will understand when I write. "Wingfoot would totally agree."
If you have been around very long, you will understand when I write. "Wingfoot would totally agree."
Yes he would agree but I imagine many of the other changes in hiker habits since his "retirement" would drive him crazy...starting with cell phones !!!
Trail Magic has gotten out of hand. I know the people donating/staging TM mean well, and hikers are always up for candy bars, burgers or cold drinks, but I feel it has become disruptive to the A.T. experience.
Slo-go'en
07-31-2017, 11:50
Where have these large "feeds" been occurring this year? How many have there been?
I can't say that I've ever run into a feed put on in a remote or pristine location. They have always been at or near the side of a road.
Slo-go'en
07-31-2017, 12:15
Trail Magic has gotten out of hand. I know the people donating/staging TM mean well, and hikers are always up for candy bars, burgers or cold drinks, but I feel it has become disruptive to the A.T. experience.
Trail magic (in the form of feeds) has become part of the AT experience. But even that depends on timing. If your in the last week of March to first week of April bubble, you'll probably run into a lot of hiker feeds, especially through GA and a little bit in NC. After that, you got to wait until Trail Days.
Otherwise, your probably not going to see much in way of free food. Just the random encounter of someone set up on the side of the road for the afternoon. How can that ruin your AT experience?
LittleRock
07-31-2017, 12:24
The way I see it, they put up signs saying "Don't feed the bears", because the fear is that bears will become accustomed to handouts and stop looking for food by natural means. The same logic can be applied to hikers.
The Kisco Kid
07-31-2017, 12:42
ATC should consider posting a link to the article on the Appalachian Trail Section Hikers Facebook page. That would reach some folks who show great interest in hosting hiker feeds and meeting thru hikers.
Sarcasm the elf
07-31-2017, 12:56
Otherwise, your probably not going to see much in way of free food. Just the random encounter of someone set up on the side of the road for the afternoon. How can that ruin your AT experience?
As several of us have posted, it does ruin our experience when these self titled "angels" interrupt our hikes by calling us over only to then tell us that because we're section hikers we're not worthy of participating in their little gathering. I know that not all of them do this, but when they do I consider it to be both an insult to me personally and an affront to the respect camaraderie that is so common on the trail.
stumpknocker
07-31-2017, 13:00
I can only think of one "donations suggested" hiker feed I've seen that you couldn't drive to...that was Mala in NC about 10 or 12 years ago.
There are plenty of hiker feeds that go on everyday that you can't drive to in the Whites, but you have to pay for those.
I personally love the food in the Whites. Always much better than the crap I carry.
I"ve always enjoyed feeds and trail magic. I believe I've only ever seen one person walk on by a feed or trail magic without getting at least something.
It's different here on the forums where a majority of people don't seem to like them.
My personal feelings are that the forum people will continue mostly complaining about them and the hiking people will continue to appreciate people's kindness.
Tennessee Viking
07-31-2017, 13:13
I think the issue that ATC has with trail magic is the leave it types of trail magic. Leaving water bottles/jugs by trailheads, beer or soda in streams/shelters/trailheads. or coolers of snacks/food along the trail.
If someone had easy access to it and picked up the stuff daily, there would be no issue. But people leaving jugs for days or leaving it with no intention to pick it up, then the ATC has issues.
But having hiker feeds at trailheads is only an issue if they are leaving trash. I don't mind the feeds being at locations in between long stretches or at major trailheads. But a feed within a days walk past a town is nonsense.
In 2007, the number of thru-hikers had been declining for 7 years in a row.
interesting, if i was ever aware of that ive long since forgotten.
i wonder what in 2007 started an upswing? when did a walk in the woods (the book, not the movie) become popular?
Sarcasm the elf
07-31-2017, 13:56
interesting, if i was ever aware of that ive long since forgotten.
i wonder what in 2007 started an upswing? when did a walk in the woods (the book, not the movie) become popular?
I would venture to guess it was a combination of the economic downturn, increased exposure due to the internet/facebook and the release of the movie Into The Wild.
I came close to quitting my job and trying a thru hike in 2008 at least partially due to those reasons.
I would venture to guess it was a combination of the economic downturn, increased exposure due to the internet/facebook and the release of the movie Into The Wild.
I came close to quitting my job and trying a thru hike in 2008 at least partially due to those reasons.
the economic downturn sent people on vacation? i'm not saying thats not true, it likely is, but its odd never the less.
was into the wild that popular a movie? much like the aforementioned a walk in the woods i generally think the books they are based on has a deeper and more lasting impact than a movie few saw and then quickly forgot.
though into the wild is, it would seem (i havent seen a walk in the woods) a much better movie.
Seatbelt
07-31-2017, 14:28
FWIW the Walk in the Woods book was released in 1998, and Wild was released in 2012(book), 2014 movie.
FWIW the Walk in the Woods book was released in 1998, and Wild was released in 2012(book), 2014 movie.
no---into the Wild book came out in 1996 and the movie in 2007...
HooKooDooKu
07-31-2017, 14:40
FWIW the Walk in the Woods book was released in 1998, and Wild was released in 2012(book), 2014 movie.
You left out that 'A Walk in the Woods' was also released as a movie in 2015.
no---into the Wild book came out in 1996 and the movie in 2007...
my point exactly.
the film into the wild, much like a walk in the woods, as hardly some cultural phenom that sent people out hiking.
no---into the Wild book came out in 1996 and the movie in 2007...
sorry---yes Wild is 2012...
HooKooDooKu
07-31-2017, 14:46
Here's the time line (with links to Wikipedia... if we can trust that for dates):
1996 - Into the Wild - Book (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Into_the_Wild_(book))
1998 - A Walk in the Woods: Rediscovering America on the Appalachian Trail - Book (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Walk_in_the_Woods_(book))
2007 - Into the Wild - Film (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Into_the_Wild_(film))
2012 - Wild: From Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail - Book (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild:_From_Lost_to_Found_on_the_Pacific_Crest_Trai l)
2014 - Wild - Film (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_(2014_film))
2015 - A Walk in the Woods - Film (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Walk_in_the_Woods_(film))
[Updated to include 'Into the Wild']
Seatbelt
07-31-2017, 14:46
You left out that 'A Walk in the Woods' was also released as a movie in 2015.
You're right, I was mainly referring to Sarcasm's statement about what influenced him to hike 2008. just reference timeline info.
Seatbelt
07-31-2017, 14:48
I think I got "Into the Wild" mistaken for "Wild" - initially I guess. My wife would not be surprised. lol
I think I got "Into the Wild" mistaken for "Wild" - initially I guess. My wife would not be surprised. lol
Yeah....
thats what was thinking and went back a few comments to see which one was being talked about but got sidetracked looking at the mooch news of the day...
Starchild
07-31-2017, 15:03
It's sad to hear people argue that only those most worthy deserve help/trail magic/hiker feeds. The basis of kindness and charity extends to all people, even those who don't appreciate it and those who don't deserve it.
Once limits are placed on kindness, you lose your humanity.
Who says to limit or only be kind to certain people? Be kind to thru hikers and let people provide trail magic to them (karma - if you expect it for you when you make your 'thru hike'). Don't take what is gifted to someone else, and accuse them of unkindness, that is limiting kindness (actually stealing it).
you speaking of the positive effects of "lifting spirits" with a hiker feed.
my response is, if your spirts are in need of lifting, then why are you out hiking?
even as someone who hikes regularly, if i'm out hiking and realize i dont want to be there, i pack it in and go home. i dont see how someone offering me a free hamburger has anything to do with it one way or the other.
So every single moment you're out hiking is a pleasurable nirvana? Your marriage...always 100% going just grrreatt? If not, then according to your logic, if I hit a low point hiking or in my marriage, then I should just quit.
Come on. I f'ing love backpacking, but when it's 90 degrees out and high humidity and gnats are bombing my eyeballs....it sucks. But I continue, and I come back, because it's overall still a pleasurable experience for me and I'd rather do it than many other things. And yeah, I love some trail magic. And so has everybody else I've ever seen at one. If people have a problem with it, then move on. But why so many negative Nancies out there?
So every single moment you're out hiking is a pleasurable nirvana? Your marriage...always 100% going just grrreatt? If not, then according to your logic, if I hit a low point hiking or in my marriage, then I should just quit.
Come on. I f'ing love backpacking, but when it's 90 degrees out and high humidity and gnats are bombing my eyeballs....it sucks. But I continue, and I come back, because it's overall still a pleasurable experience for me and I'd rather do it than many other things. And yeah, I love some trail magic. And so has everybody else I've ever seen at one. If people have a problem with it, then move on. But why so many negative Nancies out there?
marriage, to my mind is different. you agree to something and ostensibly acknowledge you wont walk away from it no matter how badly it ends up sucking.
hiking is not nearly like that.
it has its ups and downs, but my point is two fold- if the downs are consistently outweighing the ups. just stop. seriously. it makes no sense otherwise.
second, my sore feet or bad weather or whatever is not going to be changed by a beer and a hot dog. i'm going to enjoy a break from it, but then im back on my sore feet in bad weather, so i better be enjoying that.
see, the thing about all of this, why we like it, why it "lifts spirits" i would reckon is because it is a break. its, for a moment in some capacity, getting to not be out in the woods. its a taste of civilization, normal life, whatever.
and what i'm saying is, if thats what you want then go have it. you dont need to be in the woods.
said differently- hiking so that at the end you can say you did it, as if it was some badge of honor and/or ordeal to be overcome and triumphed is, to my mind, foolish.
Starchild
07-31-2017, 15:18
You want to go on a life changing event? Go overseas on a mission, join the military and defend your country and freedom. Your thru hike IS exactly a vacation. You're not a POW. You're not on some holy mission. Your elitist attitude is everything that paints a lot of hikers in a bad light. I (like many other vets here) can tell y9ou a thing or two about "selfless service". You have none of that. Unless you are out hiking to raise money for cancer/kids/ etc, you are undertaking nothing but a SELFISH journey. A vacation.
Let me also remind you of the fact that the original intent of the AT was to get people to become one with nature and to leave the worry and stress of the cities behind for periods of time, NOT to be hiked straight through, and definitely not to be used as a personal "look at me, look at what I conquered/FKT" challenge.
I love your attempt to marginalize the day/section hikers, but it really falls flat. I really wonder about a couple things: 1) how many former thru hikers are card carrying ATC members, or are active in trail clubs, 2) how many ATC members are "just" day or section hikers, and 3) how many business owners that provide services to ALL hikers have never thru hiked.
Do you even realize the number of thru hikers (and those that attempt) pale in comparison to the amount of people that use the trail that aren't?
You really act as if the trail was specifically built and designed for thru hikers. It wasn't.
You really act as if a thru hiker has gone on some life or death mission. They haven't. They went on vacation. Spend a couple combat tours overseas and then get back to me with all that "for the greater good of mankind" BS.
Many section hikers don't have the time or opportunity to put life on hold for 4-6 months and go on vacation.
Maybe being a little less judgemental as to what qualifies as a life changing experience would be helpful for humanity.
Traffic Jam
07-31-2017, 15:57
Who says to limit or only be kind to certain people?
You do, Starchild.
Puddlefish
07-31-2017, 16:31
So every single moment you're out hiking is a pleasurable nirvana? Your marriage...always 100% going just grrreatt? If not, then according to your logic, if I hit a low point hiking or in my marriage, then I should just quit.
Come on. I f'ing love backpacking, but when it's 90 degrees out and high humidity and gnats are bombing my eyeballs....it sucks. But I continue, and I come back, because it's overall still a pleasurable experience for me and I'd rather do it than many other things. And yeah, I love some trail magic. And so has everybody else I've ever seen at one. If people have a problem with it, then move on. But why so many negative Nancies out there?
It's not being negative just because we like different things. From my point of view, you're the one being negative. People are stating that they don't like parties on the trail. You're stating "but everyone likes a party!"
No doubt you're happy to have a party break out anywhere, at any time? How about when you're sleeping in your bedroom, at 3:00 a.m.? A bunch of strangers are having a kegger on your front lawn. You open your door to see what's happening, and they tell you, have a beer? What are you upset about? We're inviting you to the party?! Too damned bad that you were expecting peace and quiet tonight! Stop being such a negative Nancy! Look around, everyone is having fun.
There's a time and place for a party, and there's a time and a place for a peaceful walk in the woods. I don't ever like parties, they're not my thing. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just a preference. When I want to escape from crowds of noisy people, I take refuge in the woods. When I head down to my local trail, and I find out the the parking lot is full, and the trailhead itself is clogged with dozens of people in lawn chairs, with pop up canopies, and I have to force my way through them just to get on the trail, I find that annoying as hell.
Starchild
07-31-2017, 16:44
It's not being negative just because we like different things. From my point of view, you're the one being negative. People are stating that they don't like parties on the trail. You're stating "but everyone likes a party!"
No doubt you're happy to have a party break out anywhere, at any time? How about when you're sleeping in your bedroom, at 3:00 a.m.? A bunch of strangers are having a kegger on your front lawn. You open your door to see what's happening, and they tell you, have a beer? What are you upset about? We're inviting you to the party?! Too damned bad that you were expecting peace and quiet tonight! Stop being such a negative Nancy! Look around, everyone is having fun.
There's a time and place for a party, and there's a time and a place for a peaceful walk in the woods. I don't ever like parties, they're not my thing. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just a preference. When I want to escape from crowds of noisy people, I take refuge in the woods. When I head down to my local trail, and I find out the the parking lot is full, and the trailhead itself is clogged with dozens of people in lawn chairs, with pop up canopies, and I have to force my way through them just to get on the trail, I find that annoying as hell.
But do you have a right to a uncrowded trail at the expense of limiting other people's use of it? And we are not talking about the trail so much as the trail head.
Puddlefish
07-31-2017, 17:08
But do you have a right to a uncrowded trail at the expense of limiting other people's use of it? And we are not talking about the trail so much as the trail head.
In my local circumstance, it's all private land. It's entirely up to the landowners. Given the rules they have in place locally, such as no fires, no bikes, dogs must be leashed, and no overnight camping, I suspect they'd very much be annoyed to find that people were widening the trail head, filling the few parking spaces, and generally blocking access for people who want to actually use the trail.
I, have no rights whatsoever in that circumstance beyond what the landowner and local trail authority gives me. There's a local trail authority, that the landowners have given permission to maintain and set limits for the trail use.
To bring it back to the AT, I'd like to think that if the trail authority makes a suggestion as to the trail/trailhead use, I'd take that suggestion without whining about it.
I've seen somebody doing a hiker feed on 302 in NH just before Webster cliffs where the AT crosses the last few weekends. I wonder if I stop, will they feed me?
BuckeyeBill
07-31-2017, 18:50
Trail Magic, defined as an unexpected act of kindness, is a quintessential part of the Appalachian Trail experience for many long-distance hikers. This is what's missing from this entire "conversation". The unexpected part is what makes it magic. You're walking down the road in a downpour on a Sunday morning. You've given up on trying to hitch into town when a car pulls up beside you and offers you that ride. They take you to their home feed you and wash your clothes for you. Then they take you to the store and finally take you back to the trail. It fits the definition perfectly. Someone else mentioned getting a roll of toilet paper when she needed it really badly. Oh the definition comes from the ATC website.
Curious G
07-31-2017, 19:17
Wow! So there is a lots to process here. I'm more confused then when I started. Let me see if I got this. 1. The ATC isn't saying magic is bad. Just bad for the trail. 2. Those that don't agree will choose to ignore this and just do magic anyway because they have a right to do whatever they want to. Like the Vermont Trail Club and The Green Mountain Hotel. 3. Those that don't agree with magic can't point out that this is bad for the trail because that's negative/controlling and they should go hiking somewhere else where trails aren't the social event of the season. 4. If enough kids wan't to hang out on my lawn and all agree this is cool with them its not trespassing and I should shut up. 5. A walk in the woods came out in 2015. 6. Marriage is hard. And 7. I should have been a paratrooper. Double wowsers. Did you ever consider that if an issue kicks up this much kaka it proves that it is a problem that must be addressed? Clearly sumin aint workin. I'm hearing the trail became this way recently and it seems like some of the wise old owls are saying it wasn't this way before. If everyone just ignore this trail ruling from ATC then why not pick and choose the ones you want? Like why pack out trash cuz that's a pain? Why bury poop? I find this inconvenient! Why hang food - irritating. Have fires where ever and my personal fav - screw bear cans. They suck. Just asking. Not trying to get dog piled. But I have kids and they probably wouldn't think to just blow off the governing authorities. Isn't it a bit presumptuous to just decide to do what you wan't and blow off everyone else cuz you happen to like passing out goodies to strangers?
TJ aka Teej
07-31-2017, 19:42
I've seen somebody doing a hiker feed on 302 in NH just before Webster cliffs where the AT crosses the last few weekends. I wonder if I stop, will they feed me?
If it's who I think it is, yes they would.
imscotty
07-31-2017, 20:00
Wow! So there is a lots to process here. I'm more confused then when I started. Let me see if I got this. 1. The ATC isn't saying magic is bad. Just bad for the trail. 2. Those that don't agree will choose to ignore this and just do magic anyway because they have a right to do whatever they want to. Like the Vermont Trail Club and The Green Mountain Hotel. 3. Those that don't agree with magic can't point out that this is bad for the trail because that's negative/controlling and they should go hiking somewhere else where trails aren't the social event of the season. 4. If enough kids wan't to hang out on my lawn and all agree this is cool with them its not trespassing and I should shut up. 5. A walk in the woods came out in 2015. 6. Marriage is hard. And 7. I should have been a paratrooper. Double wowsers.
Curious G,
Wow, you catch on quickly. Welcome to Whiteblaze :)
Curious G
07-31-2017, 20:31
My point is, no one has the right and I personally find it ridiculous when ppl try to force changes because of their own wants and desires. If I personally don't like the way a place is I don't go there. I don't pitch a fit trying to get it changed just so it suits ME. I wish ppl would stop trying to make ppl look bad because they enjoy a different experience. Either go when it's quiet and there is no bubble, which is what my husband and I do and for the record we have never experienced or even seen a hiker feed when we're out there, or don't go at all. You've thru hiked it twice, you've had your experiences, let others have theirs.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Ha! I figured it out!! Nice. So this is the remark that really stood out to me. No disrespect Rabit but a question. Isn't the forced change based on personal wants and desires be imposed by magicians in this instance? While I'm hearing this is the way it is. I'm also hearing this isn't the way it was, this isn't the way it was supposed to be, and now this isn't the way it should be. Form older hikers and the AT commission respectively. There are a couple of other things here that don't add up but there really beside the point. Don't go? Very troubling I think that the trails are open to a select few and not all. I'm wondering why if I passed out beer and hot dogs in my local park down the square they'd arrest me and this is somehow ok on the trails. I joined this talk after being a frequent reader and during my recent Virginia lash I was confused and a bit put off by magic. I thought it was a fundraiser bake sale. I didn't want anything and this seemed to irk the magicians but when they found out I wasn't going to Maine I sort of disappeared. They were like oh you're not thru hiking anyhow so what we we all talking about before this dope showed up at our parking lot. And yeah I kind of like an empty country road for its charm and sense of being far off. It seems like this drama as it has been called would go away if magic did to. Then we could all just hike and talk about food. No?
Thanks for welcoming me Scotty! :p
You want to go on a life changing event?
ive been on one life changing event-my first Grateful Dead concert...
life hasn't been the same since....
MuddyWaters
07-31-2017, 21:23
My point is, no one has the right and I personally find it ridiculous when ppl try to force changes because of their own wants and desires. If I personally don't like the way a place is I don't go there. I don't pitch a fit trying to get it changed just so it suits ME. I wish ppl would stop trying to make ppl look bad because they enjoy a different experience. Either go when it's quiet and there is no bubble, which is what my husband and I do and for the record we have never experienced or even seen a hiker feed when we're out there, or don't go at all. You've thru hiked it twice, you've had your experiences, let others have theirs.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Well, ummm....this goes both ways
The people forcing change are actually the ones that like free food
not the ones that dont
Both have a right to express their opinion and fight to make the trail what it is.
When it comes down to it, the problem isnt about food
Its about the type of person that is hiking , and their groupies
people that arent out there for solitude, they are out there for groups and socializing, and their numbers are growing
so are their ridiculous groupies
JumpMaster Blaster
07-31-2017, 23:06
Now that was harsh, JMB!
Thru hiking isn't as hard and isn't heroic like some of the things you listed -- I kind of think you should have put having a baby on that list for even better effect --but it counts as something special, I think.
Definitely more than a vacation.
But regardless of your or my opinion on that, it is a simple fact than many good people have gone out of the way to treat thru hikes rather well. Because they were thru hiking.
On my hike, those people included a small town that opened up their community center to us, a church that build a special cabin for us, a family that was known for 1000 miles to take great joy in offering every thru hiker that passed by an icecream cone (me more), a monastery that welcomed thru hikers with a meal and bed, and so many more.
If you want to demonize those people for putting all their efforts elsewhere, I would be shocked. If you want to say that they could have spent their energy better elsewhere, I might agree. But I suspect that you most probably would have just said "thank you" if you were there.
And perhaps even conclude that all those good people were thinking more like Starchild than you might want to admit.
As a section hiker, I forged many an acquaintance (and a few long lasting friendships) along the trail. Some from other thrus, most from other section hikers. I even get Christmas cards from an "adopted family" in Indiana that forged a special bond with me, all from one 3 days trip on the AT north of Damascus.
I have run into several military vets, from the Vietnam era to Desert Storm/Panama to Iraq & Afghanistan campaign vets. Suffice to say, many of these were providing trail magic by simply maintaining the trail, and I thanked them for that.
I am NOT, in any way, denigrating or dismissing any person's decision to attempt a thru hike, whatsoever. But when all is said and done, it's a vacation, that doesn't put the individual in inherent harm's way.
I met a gentleman last fall north of Hampton who sold all of his personal belongings and decided to live on (really off of) the trail and all it's goodness. He made a conscious decision to do that, and toss his former lifestyle to the side. What greater good for mankind was he sacrificing his time for?
To willingly and deliberately do that knowing full well the consequences is an individual decision. It's a vacation, pure and simple. You didn't sign a contract. You didn't put your life in jeopardy for the greater good (whether your peers and society agreed with it).
One may not think of it as such, given the conditions one sometimes endures just being out on a trail, but to automatically place that category above others is elitist in it's simplest form.
Yes, I may seem a bit harsh in my comparison, but enduring the diatribe of "I'm special because I'm (willingly) enduring all kinds of austere conditions and bugs and dirt and cold dehydrated meals" is getting a bit old. Hell, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam vets would say I had it easy.
One group I would support on their thru attempt? The Warrior Hikers. But they KNOW hardship enough to appreciate a thru hike attempt.
middle to middle
07-31-2017, 23:13
Yes true, I say more trquila pints are needed. I am very serious.
JumpMaster Blaster
07-31-2017, 23:15
Where have these large "feeds" been occurring this year? How many have there been?
I can't say that I've ever run into a feed put on in a remote or pristine location. They have always been at or near the side of a road.
There was the story of an overtly obnoxious hiker feed at the Overmountain Shelter https://thetrek.co/appalachian-trail/no-one-could-believe-this-amazing-trail-magic/
(https://thetrek.co/appalachian-trail/no-one-could-believe-this-amazing-trail-magic/)
JumpMaster Blaster
07-31-2017, 23:22
My point EXACTLY! Read your own book.
Funny how polarizing this thread has become.
My dad taught me to always try to treat others as you would like to be treated. When a minor disagreement or perceived disrespect occurred give others the benefit of the doubt. Remember please and thank you. Don't take what isn't yours, don't expect someone to give you anything, keep your ugly words to yourself. You are judged by the company you keep.
these are kindergarten rules. Sometimes I forget them or choose not to follow them and it leads to trouble.
People who provide trail magic are giving up their time and money to do something. Maybe their motive is to live vicariously through the hikers stories. Maybe they want to tell you about their perception of god. Maybe they want to give back kindness that was shown to them. Maybe they want to get out of the house on a nice day.
Its not ok to create litter or belittle those who aren't doing the kind of hike you want them to. Not ok to harass people to partake or not partake. I get the AT rules for hiker giveaways. Perhaps this list should be posted on the notice boards where giveaways most often take place. We all have horror stories of bad interactions with people we meet on and off trail. I meet more good and great people then jerks when I'm on trail. Try to keep it positive, lead by example, walk away and enjoy your hike. That's why you are there.
Slo-go'en
08-01-2017, 00:27
There was the story of an overtly obnoxious hiker feed at the Overmountain Shelter https://thetrek.co/appalachian-trail/no-one-could-believe-this-amazing-trail-magic/
I think the keg party put on by the Appalachian State Collage at Overmountain back in '08 was better :) How long does it take 50 hikers to drain a keg of beer? About 10 minutes.
.
People who provide trail magic are giving up their time and money to do something.
no, they are choosing to spend their time and money doing something that is for themselves. they are not doing works of charity.
i went to the movies last week. did i "give up my time and money" to do so? i suppose technically so, but saying it way implies i committed some sort of selfless act for the benefit of others and that is not what i did.
no, they are choosing to spend their time and money doing something that is for themselves. they are not doing works of charity.
Most of what we do is for ourselves.
Years ago I sent some trinkets to a hiker serving in Iraq, including an ATC membership. This was great fun for me and hardly charity. As it turned out, even though I sent everything anonymously, the soldier sent an amazing note to the ATC then forwarded my way. It made my day (and more) and was really cool. Making human connections usually are.
Disussing how Feeds and such impact the Trail -- and more AT experience-- is appropriate, but delving too deep into people's motivations for wanting to make connections serves little purpose, I think.
Most of what we do is for ourselves.
Years ago I sent some trinkets to a hiker serving in Iraq, including an ATC membership. This was great fun for me and hardly charity. As it turned out, even though I sent everything anonymously, the soldier sent an amazing note to the ATC then forwarded my way. It made my day (and more) and was really cool. Making human connections usually are.
Disussing how Feeds and such impact the Trail -- and more AT experience-- is appropriate, but delving too deep into people's motivations for wanting to make connections serves little purpose, I think.
its all related though. both the motives of the people doing it, its impact on the motives of the people hiking, the resulting impact on the trail and it's other users, it all goes together.
if we are to "fix" any of these things a change in the culture surrounding the AT is necessary. that by definition, involves people's motives.
Seatbelt
08-01-2017, 07:34
no, they are choosing to spend their time and money doing something that is for themselves. they are not doing works of charity.
i went to the movies last week. did i "give up my time and money" to do so? i suppose technically so, but saying it way implies i committed some sort of selfless act for the benefit of others and that is not what i did.
I fail to see the correlation between your movie attendance and picking up a wet hitch-hiker. Random acts of kindness are done by many self-less people in this world. Not saying I am one, but I have known a few.
I fail to see the correlation between your movie attendance and picking up a wet hitch-hiker. Random acts of kindness are done by many self-less people in this world. Not saying I am one, but I have known a few.
and i'm not talking about picking up a wet hitch hiker. and i dont think anyone else here is either.
and i'm not talking about picking up a wet hitch hiker. and i dont think anyone else here is either.
i would also add though, since you brought it up, theres a distinction that needs to be made between someone who lives in say, gorham, picking up a wet hitch hiker they happen to be passing by and giving them a ride and someone who lives in, lets say TN, who travels to NH during thru hiker season for the expressed purpose of looking for wet hitch hikers who need rides.
i would also add though, since you brought it up, theres a distinction that needs to be made between someone who lives in say, gorham, picking up a wet hitch hiker they happen to be passing by and giving them a ride and someone who lives in, lets say TN, who travels to NH during thru hiker season for the expressed purpose of looking for wet hitch hikers who need rides.
One is trail magic, the other is a groupie
Seatbelt
08-01-2017, 07:43
and i'm not talking about picking up a wet hitch hiker. and i dont think anyone else here is either.
Read post #161 and there are others as well. If you are talking about hiker feeds as trail magic, then what was Baltimore Jack trying to accomplish for himself? From what I understand he was always giving back to the trail and helping strangers, many inexperienced hikers. What was his agenda? Just curious.
I never felt like I was in remote wilderness on the trail. Not because of trail magic, but because I wasn't. I was never more than a few days (if that) away from a town, probably never more than a few hours away from a road and hardly ever out of cell service. This idea of remoteness on the AT is somewhat of a fantasy today. I know what folks are wanting but it just isn't that way on the AT anymore and never will be again. Population and economy drives this, not trail magic. I'm in my 50s and the US population has gone from less than 190 million when I was born to over 320 million today. Our desire to get away from this mass of humanity is understandable but maybe not as realistic as it once was.
What is bubbling just below the surface here is the very real problem of the partying, drug using, and generally rude groups of youngish hikers that seem intent on ruining the entire experience for everybody else in their quest to hike their own hike and get away from the society that puts limits on what they want to do. To me this is the problem with the trail today and, in my opinion, no amount, or lack, of trail magic is going to change this. On the first few weeks of my thru, there were several times that I thought violence was going to break out between these groups and the older crowd on the trail. This was not fun and I still sit and wonder how these people could have so little regard for others. It wasn't just at the beginning of the trail either. In Connecticut, there was still a group of these hikers around and I watched them buy two cases of beer and load it into their packs for the shelter that night. Very frustrating. I can handle a lot of crap from these folks and not be bothered in the least but don't mess with my sleep and leave your cigarettes and doobies out of the shelters.
How do we fix this problem? I see it as an enforcement issue. I saw a few ridge runners at the beginning of the trail and the shelters they were at were quiet and "remote" feeling. After the first few days I didn't see ridge runners anymore and things changed. I never did see a single ranger or law enforcement official on the trail. Not once in almost six months. In Damascus, they completely ignore the crazy parties going on in the woods in return for commerce. I'm assuming it is only a matter of time before Trail Days grows into something that even their Chamber of Commerce can't put up with. As much as I hated the commercialization of the trail by the group known as the AMC, I never experienced a problem with these groups in NH. Maybe this should/will be the model for the future of the trail in the other states.
Read post #161 and there are others as well. If you are talking about hiker feeds as trail magic, then what was Baltimore Jack trying to accomplish for himself? From what I understand he was always giving back to the trail and helping strangers, many inexperienced hikers. What was his agenda? Just curious.
i'm not going to speculate on his actions or the motivations for them in this forum.
Read post #161 and there are others as well. If you are talking about hiker feeds as trail magic, then what was Baltimore Jack trying to accomplish for himself? From what I understand he was always giving back to the trail and helping strangers, many inexperienced hikers. What was his agenda? Just curious.
and where does that say that picking up wet hitch hikers is detrimental? where did i say that? where did anyone say that?
One is trail magic, the other is a groupie
exactly. i'm really glad we've all taken to calling them what they are, its long overdue.
Seatbelt
08-01-2017, 09:24
and where does that say that picking up wet hitch hikers is detrimental? where did i say that? where did anyone say that?
Your entire discourse is saying (to me at least) that people are only doing TM for their own reasons(good), not for others'. That their motives need to be reviewed/changed.
Where I come from, we look out for each other, help each other without being asked, etc. and don't think anything about it. Don't expect anything in return. Many church groups do the same, and I would expect some have ulterior motives as well. All I am saying is to expand your horizons a little and give some trail magic people some credit for trying to do what they think is a good thing. I think the judging of others' motives is a step in the wrong direction most of the time. How do we know what they are thinking? or why they are out there? A church group feeding hikers are not trying to add to their local church are they? Most everyone they meet on the trail lives a long ways off.
Sorry for the rant, maybe I took your words the wrong way, but I just wanted to stand up for some people who have NO agenda, just think they are helping out and lending a hand, even if it misguided.
capehiker
08-01-2017, 10:30
One is trail magic, the other is a groupie
Exactly. It's mind blowing how many members on here are not understanding (or not wanting to) the difference. The amount of groupies, pack sniffers, wannabe's, etc is growing exponentially due to Facebook groups, Instagram, etc.
There is a growing subsection of people who want to stroke their own egos by saying "I gave a snickers bar to a thru hiker!" We know this to be true because they come into the Class of 2017 page and say exactly that with hopes of getting pats on the head. We also know that people brag about leaving unattended food at road crossings and trail heads. We know there is a group of "shuttlers" who claim to give free rides and then get bent out of shape when the hikers use them for that very reason (free!) and don't pay.
We know this because all you have to do is spend a little time in these online groups to see it. For me, this is a driving factor in the latest PR release from the ATC.
LittleRock
08-01-2017, 11:54
There was the story of an overtly obnoxious hiker feed at the Overmountain Shelter https://thetrek.co/appalachian-trail/no-one-could-believe-this-amazing-trail-magic/
I think the keg party put on by the Appalachian State Collage at Overmountain back in '08 was better :) How long does it take 50 hikers to drain a keg of beer? About 10 minutes.
These remind me why I avoid the AT during thru season...
There was the story of an overtly obnoxious hiker feed at the Overmountain Shelter https://thetrek.co/appalachian-trail/no-one-could-believe-this-amazing-trail-magic/
Your entire discourse is saying (to me at least) that people are only doing TM for their own reasons(good), not for others'. That their motives need to be reviewed/changed.
Where I come from, we look out for each other, help each other without being asked, etc. and don't think anything about it. Don't expect anything in return. Many church groups do the same, and I would expect some have ulterior motives as well. All I am saying is to expand your horizons a little and give some trail magic people some credit for trying to do what they think is a good thing. I think the judging of others' motives is a step in the wrong direction most of the time. How do we know what they are thinking? or why they are out there? A church group feeding hikers are not trying to add to their local church are they? Most everyone they meet on the trail lives a long ways off.
Sorry for the rant, maybe I took your words the wrong way, but I just wanted to stand up for some people who have NO agenda, just think they are helping out and lending a hand, even if it misguided.
i suspect youre just not aware of the very specific forms of "trail magic" under discussion here and are therefore taking things the wrong way.
no one, certainly not me, is saying people should stop giving hikers rides in the rain, for instance.
there is a whole other level, a culture in fact, of "trail magic" that goes well beyond random unplanned acts of kindness and thats what we're discussing
Ankle Bone
08-01-2017, 12:20
When it comes down to it, the problem isnt about food
Its about the type of person that is hiking , and their groupies
people that arent out there for solitude, they are out there for groups and socializing, and their numbers are growing
so are their ridiculous groupies
So well said!!!!
Ankle Bone
08-01-2017, 12:32
There was the story of an overtly obnoxious hiker feed at the Overmountain Shelter https://thetrek.co/appalachian-trail/no-one-could-believe-this-amazing-trail-magic/
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
(https://thetrek.co/appalachian-trail/no-one-could-believe-this-amazing-trail-magic/)
I am heading South from Elk Park this Fall. Sorry to all who support Hiker Feeds, but if this was to greet me on my first day of vacation, I'd be very annoyed
Lone Wolf
08-01-2017, 13:21
From what I understand he was always giving back to the trail and helping strangers, many inexperienced hikers. What was his agenda? Just curious.
he had no life outside the AT
HooKooDooKu
08-01-2017, 13:33
Wow, 10 pages of posts on this issue in less than a week.
Last year it took two months to get 8 pages of posts on this exact same issue (and the 'meat' of the arguments haven't changed a bit).
2016 Hiker Feed Issue Thread (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/116632-Hiker-feed-issues/page8)
Sarcasm the elf
08-01-2017, 13:40
Wow, 10 pages of posts on this issue in less than a week.
Last year it took two months to get 8 pages of posts on this exact same issue (and the 'meat' of the arguments haven't changed a bit).
2016 Hiker Feed Issue Thread (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/116632-Hiker-feed-issues/page8)
If you switch your view to 40 posts per page, then it's only five pages. :D
gpburdelljr
08-01-2017, 15:03
Wow, 10 pages of posts on this issue in less than a week.
Last year it took two months to get 8 pages of posts on this exact same issue (and the 'meat' of the arguments haven't changed a bit).
2016 Hiker Feed Issue Thread (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/116632-Hiker-feed-issues/page8)
A great many of the posts are unrelated, or only tangentially related, to the issue as laid out by the OP.
Seatbelt
08-01-2017, 17:48
A great many of the posts are unrelated, or only tangentially related, to the issue as laid out by the OP.
I agree, now we are talking about groupies and cultural change instead of hiker feeds set up by the trail. I can't keep up I guess.
I agree, now we are talking about groupies and cultural change instead of hiker feeds set up by the trail. I can't keep up I guess.
we're talking about trail groupies and the culture around the trail, both of which contribute to the "trail magic" issue.
groupie is not just a word for girls who follow rock bands around and culture is not just a word that refers to pieces of art in a museum. the appalachian trail has both a culture and groupies.
you keep insisting in looking at these things with such a narrow focus
When it comes to feeds -- especially the larger ones --what percentage are driven by former thru hikers?
Are they considered groupies too, or is there another word for them?
Follow up question: Are the town's people that put on feeds (I recall reading about one put on by Great Barrington, a recently designated "Trail Town" or whatever the ATC labels them as) considered groupies too?
I am thinking they fit the definition many are putting forth.
Or perhaps there are different sub classifications of Groupies?
Also wondering if any deviation from your normal routine -- motivated by a chance to give a ride or some other kindness -- makes one a groupie, or if there is a time and mile window that makes that "OK".
Also wondering if Lone Wolf has any groupies. Between his pith, Harley and beard I have to think he must, right?
Also wondering if Lone Wolf has any groupies. Between his pith, Harley and beard I have to think he must, right?
wouldnt he have a different trail name then?
one more like "Popular Wolf"........
Lone Wolf
08-01-2017, 19:06
Also wondering if Lone Wolf has any groupies. Between his pith, Harley and beard I have to think he must, right?
not a one. my cats love me
MuddyWaters
08-01-2017, 19:08
When it comes to feeds -- especially the larger ones --what percentage are driven by former thru hikers?
Are they considered groupies too, or is there another word for them?
I came across a couple of ex thru hiker doing trail food in Shenandoah, at a wayside, right where the hikers came out of woods. Carefully screening hikers to see if they were thru hikers before offering.
I was like ....dude...you know theres are restaurant right there , 50 yds away with burgers and shakes , right? whats the point.
They just wanted to talk to thru hikers...
Curious G
08-01-2017, 20:36
Hysterical! What's with all the word games? The trails are for hiking right? For hikers. So you are either a hiker on a trail for hiking or a visiting other at a weird petting zoo for humans passing out candy after the AT Conservancy has asked you not to. Because? Hikers are desperate? Why not row out to cruise ships in port and pass out beads fruit and flowers? Booze and food? You could join at shuffleboard and ferry passengers to shore maybe stay the night and try your luck at the casino? Hear all about other folks vacations. I've been reading up here online and if you google trail magic the results are not attractive from a hikers view. I signed up here to learn something and the news isn't good. Which is sad because it seems like its a lot easier to just not do something than it is to actually have to go do something if that makes sense. All you have to do to do whats right is nothing. Stay home. Or take a hike literally. You'll love it! My suspicion is that this should be filed under hey you get off of my cloud. I understand folks are trying to be kind and I don't want hurt feelings but let's respect the rules and each others space especially the very special places made for special reasons. To be alone or with friends and just walk. Thanks
Uncle Joe
08-01-2017, 21:04
Judging by the number of Yay's and Nay's TM must be doing about right.
Seatbelt
08-02-2017, 07:20
we're talking about trail groupies and the culture around the trail, both of which contribute to the "trail magic" issue.
groupie is not just a word for girls who follow rock bands around and culture is not just a word that refers to pieces of art in a museum. the appalachian trail has both a culture and groupies.
you keep insisting in looking at these things with such a narrow focus
Young man you don't have to "school" me on what a groupie or culture means. To insinuate that I don't know is insulting. And I am not the one with a narrow focus here. I have not accused everyone involved with TM as having an agenda. I have simply invited you and others to look at other possibilities for their motives, definitely not a characteristic of "narrow focus".
Hysterical! What's with all the word games? The trails are for hiking right? For hikers. So you are either a hiker on a trail for hiking or a visiting other at a weird petting zoo for humans passing out candy after the AT Conservancy has asked you not to. ...
I understand folks are trying to be kind and I don't want hurt feelings but let's respect the rules and each others space especially the very special places made for special reasons. To be alone or with friends and just walk. Thanks
The ATC did not ask anyone to stop trail magic, they did put out a list of suggestions on how to do it in a way that minimizes impact.
https://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-document-library/suggestions-for-providing-trail-magic.pdf
Seatbelt
08-02-2017, 07:43
Young man you don't have to "school" me on what a groupie or culture means. To insinuate that I don't know is insulting. And I am not the one with a narrow focus here. I have not accused everyone involved with TM as having an agenda. I have simply invited you and others to look at other possibilities for their motives, definitely not a characteristic of "narrow focus".
Sorry if I came across "mean sounding". After reading my post, it didn't appear in the tone it was meant. I do agree that the "groupie" thing is becoming a problem, but it is only at certain times and certain places. The overall trail experience, in my experience, is mostly not like this and is whatever one makes of it. I don't see how the problem as mentioned could be eliminated or even slowed down. It is an extension or overflow of real society in the younger generation these days.
I have not accused everyone involved with TM as having an agenda.
nor have i, or anyone else.
but for some reason you insist on reading our comments that way.
Seatbelt
08-02-2017, 10:11
nor have i, or anyone else.
but for some reason you insist on reading our comments that way.
Wow, post 174 a clear 180 from this. No point is further discussing this with you. you've already changed your position, congrats!:)
rocketsocks
08-02-2017, 10:56
Why are we still calling organized hiker feeds trail magic...it's not!
Sarcasm the elf
08-02-2017, 11:43
Why are we still calling organized hiker feeds trail magic...it's not!
Because traditionally they would hire magicians to entertain the hikers while eating. Duh!
Teacher & Snacktime
08-02-2017, 12:34
Because traditionally they would hire magicians to entertain the hikers while eating. Duh!
I thought it was supposed to be reenactments of scenes from Monty Python's Holy Grail !
rocketsocks
08-02-2017, 13:00
I thought it was supposed to be reenactments of scenes from Monty Python's Holy Grail !i once saw a reenactment of all the hall of famers summiting kahtahdin, and Bissels was drinkin' champagne from a boot.
Wow, post 174 a clear 180 from this. No point is further discussing this with you. you've already changed your position, congrats!:)
how is that post saying anyone has an agenda?
but i see your point. in the typing of that post i intended the term "trail magic" to mean the certain types of trail magic that i and others were discussing as being an issue, not all trail magic.
Sarcasm the elf
08-02-2017, 13:07
I thought it was supposed to be reenactments of scenes from Monty Python's Holy Grail !
Would explain the cougar sightings!
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rO8U6vh1Igo/T3NVuj21emI/AAAAAAAALuw/QvBncaiDwTY/s1600/Ohne%2BTitel-173.jpg
Why are we still calling organized hiker feeds trail magic...it's not!
Is a disorganized hiker feed OK?
rocketsocks
08-02-2017, 15:08
Is a disorganized hiker feed OK?ask your ATC
Odd Man Out
08-02-2017, 15:11
If I were running a business in a trail town selling burgers to hikers and a guy sets up a tent out front giving away burgers, I'd be a little miffed. I'd rather support the local economy.
If I were running a business in a trail town selling burgers to hikers and a guy sets up a tent out front giving away burgers, I'd be a little miffed. I'd rather support the local economy.
Once upon a time a long time ago in a galaxy far far away,
About 20 pages ago. I said something very similar.
Wayne
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
rocketsocks
08-02-2017, 17:22
If I were running a business in a trail town selling burgers to hikers and a guy sets up a tent out front giving away burgers, I'd be a little miffed. I'd rather support the local economy.eggsactly!
he had no life outside the AT
Was that a bad thing?
Lone Wolf
08-02-2017, 17:57
Was that a bad thing?
absolutely......
Curious G
08-02-2017, 19:02
Young man you don't have to "school" me on what a groupie or culture means. To insinuate that I don't know is insulting. And I am not the one with a narrow focus here. I have not accused everyone involved with TM as having an agenda. I have simply invited you and others to look at other possibilities for their motives, definitely not a characteristic of "narrow focus".
So again a quick googling reveals that there are a number of clubs groups angels and even groups of angels that perform magic for recruitment or donations. That's an agenda no? More accurately in keeping with the importance of word specifics they do feeds. Or rides or both.
Not sure how to double quote yet but it was pointed out to me that there is no rule stopping magic. Is there a bury your poop rule? Cuz if not I guess I don't actually have to. Every hiker knows its bad for the trail but hey no rule! Its just a suggestion right? Go with it. Or just drop and go!
rocketsocks
08-02-2017, 21:01
All depends on style I guess...sometimes less is more.
Kaptainkriz
08-02-2017, 22:33
We could move the feeds outside the environment...
I thought it was supposed to be reenactments of scenes from Monty Python's Holy Grail !
rmitchell
08-03-2017, 07:38
This is a great idea and to me a substantial gift that keeps on giving.
The AT is typically maintained by local volunteers through a local association or committee. Its a good idea to try coordinating with before doing work though. As a trail maintainer (not the AT) myself I have seen well intentioned people perform sometimes heavy work in trail sections that was incorrectly done (actually made conditions worse), had an association organized work party scheduled for the same work or area, or work done on bits of trail that were moved later in the season or the following year and the effort was negated.
A quick email or call is usually all thats needed and 95% of the time your efforts will be greatly appreciated and accepted. On behalf of the maintainers, thanks!
My post was tongue in cheek but you bring up a good point. We do coordinate with the hiking club and report our work. Well intentioned but misguided efforts can have unintended consequences.
Starchild
08-03-2017, 08:41
I never felt like I was in remote wilderness on the trail. Not because of trail magic, but because I wasn't. I was never more than a few days (if that) away from a town, probably never more than a few hours away from a road and hardly ever out of cell service. This idea of remoteness on the AT is somewhat of a fantasy today. I know what folks are wanting but it just isn't that way on the AT anymore and never will be again. Population and economy drives this, not trail magic. I'm in my 50s and the US population has gone from less than 190 million when I was born to over 320 million today. Our desire to get away from this mass of humanity is understandable but maybe not as realistic as it once was.
During my thru hike the trail was our highway - our method of travel, the way, as it felt to me. It was not backcountry, but during that time of the thru hike our front country. It was a feeling that divided life on trail and life off trail and set them worlds apart.
What is bubbling just below the surface here is the very real problem of the partying, drug using, and generally rude groups of youngish hikers that seem intent on ruining the entire experience for everybody else in their quest to hike their own hike and get away from the society that puts limits on what they want to do.
What is also bubbling on the other side is people who hold to a expectation of how one should hike and are resentful of others for wanting to do things differently. During my thru the scene as you describe I never encountered that I can recall. Yes some drinking, some smoking actually lots of tobacco (which was by far the most obnoxious of them all), but normally in respectful small groups which would go off on their own to do their thing.
...
... How do we fix this problem? I see it as an enforcement issue. I saw a few ridge runners at the beginning of the trail and the shelters they were at were quiet and "remote" feeling. After the first few days I didn't see ridge runners anymore and things changed. I never did see a single ranger or law enforcement official on the trail. Not once in almost six months. In Damascus, they completely ignore the crazy parties going on in the woods in return for commerce. I'm assuming it is only a matter of time before Trail Days grows into something that even their Chamber of Commerce can't put up with. As much as I hated the commercialization of the trail by the group known as the AMC, I never experienced a problem with these groups in NH. Maybe this should/will be the model for the future of the trail in the other states.[/QUOTE]
Ridgerunners are educational, not enforcement, and as you pointed out they worked, perhaps time to rethink its an enforcement issue as it is not a welcoming atmosphere for the trail environment and once it's there it's hard to get rid of including the overarching feeling of oppression in society that many want to escape. Way too many are willing to jump on the enforcement bandwagon without thinking how that changes the trail.
Curious G
09-17-2017, 13:39
Hey I just got this month's Backpacker Mag and there's a really good article on trail magic and magicians in it titled "Trail Daze" pretty interesting stuff! I can't find it online otherwise I'd post a link. I didn't realize that huge covens of wizards did the feeds I've heard so much about.
middle to middle
09-17-2017, 14:12
Best of all is an unexpected free flowing cold spring with a nice pool.
middle to middle
09-17-2017, 14:19
ALSO YADDA YADDA YADDA much ado about nothing.
Curious G
09-17-2017, 14:42
Hey I just got this month's Backpacker Mag and there's a really good article on trail magic and magicians in it titled "Trail Daze" pretty interesting stuff! I can't find it online otherwise I'd post a link. I didn't realize that huge covens of wizards did the feeds I've heard so much about.
Not sure what that dude is on about but I suspect filibustering which is as I recall a UA violation. Let's keep it on topic shall we. The article is not "much ado about nothing" it's about this riff raff group and some others doing magic is all and I'd like to hear from the community about what they think. Thanks
ScareBear
09-18-2017, 00:32
Not sure what that dude is on about but I suspect filibustering which is as I recall a UA violation. Let's keep it on topic shall we. The article is not "much ado about nothing" it's about this riff raff group and some others doing magic is all and I'd like to hear from the community about what they think. Thanks
This member of the community thinks:
MUCH FREAKING ADO ABOUT NOTHING.
Has it affected you? Do you even hike the AT? Have you ever seen TM? Are you just trolling?
I hike the AT. I have seen TM. I am not trolling.
TM doesn't affect me and my enjoyment of the AT in any way but positively.
I don't go to Trail Days, and it is not indicative of the entire AT. Neither is Damascus. Nor Hot Springs. Etc...
Only took you 50 posts to start in on TM with not one, but two posts at the same time. Agenda much?
Back on the trail
09-18-2017, 14:16
Well all I am going to say is when I come upon a Green Apple Jolly Rancher that has been left behind in a stash at a shelter, I get a smile on my face and am happy for the pay it forward attitude on the trail. I don't feel bad leaving behind an extra freeze dried meal that some other hiker in need is going to use. That's my take and that's the way it will stay.
Well all I am going to say is when I come upon a Green Apple Jolly Rancher that has been left behind in a stash at a shelter, I get a smile on my face and am happy for the pay it forward attitude on the trail. I don't feel bad leaving behind an extra freeze dried meal that some other hiker in need is going to use. That's my take and that's the way it will stay.
great idea turning shelters into bear baiting stations
Curious G
09-18-2017, 20:00
This member of the community thinks:
MUCH FREAKING ADO ABOUT NOTHING.
Has it affected you? Do you even hike the AT? Have you ever seen TM? Are you just trolling?
I hike the AT. I have seen TM. I am not trolling.
TM doesn't affect me and my enjoyment of the AT in any way but positively.
I don't go to Trail Days, and it is not indicative of the entire AT. Neither is Damascus. Nor Hot Springs. Etc...
Only took you 50 posts to start in on TM with not one, but two posts at the same time. Agenda much?
Wow. SMH. Is that rage? Need some magic pal? If you are the voice of magic I don't think you're helping the cause by being mean and hateful. I'm glad that absolutely nothing important regarding the trail is up to you. Are you a member of this riff raff frat? I'm guessing you are? I thought about answering your questions but it only took two posts from you to realize that I and everybody else probably would be happier if they just ignored you. You have nothing to teach us and we have nothing to learn from fury. I will say this in closing if you can figure out where I live and what's there then you should know we have no interest in what's happening to "your" trail to happen to "ours" so yes we're very interested in this issue. I am. So are about 16,000 people who have viewed this thread I guess. It appears to be much ado about something buddy. Try yoga and some green tea with honey to get the chi flowing. Let's not talk anymore. Thank you.
Well all I am going to say is when I come upon a Green Apple Jolly Rancher that has been left behind in a stash at a shelter, I get a smile on my face and am happy for the pay it forward attitude on the trail. I don't feel bad leaving behind an extra freeze dried meal that some other hiker in need is going to use. That's my take and that's the way it will stay.
Really? You leave unattended food in the woods and are proud of it. I am just amazed at the ignorance.
MuddyWaters
09-19-2017, 06:35
Well all I am going to say is when I come upon a Green Apple Jolly Rancher that has been left behind in a stash at a shelter, I get a smile on my face and am happy for the pay it forward attitude on the trail. I don't feel bad leaving behind an extra freeze dried meal that some other hiker in need is going to use. That's my take and that's the way it will stay.
You cite the perfect reasons why shelters should be eliminated.
Some people cannot behave properly if theres a man made structure involved, they forget they are in the woods. They assume someone will clean up after them.
Its really simple. If you ever think you should leave something behind.........the answer is always NO. Not a scrap of trash. Not an item your too lazy to carry. Nothing. Nada. Zip.
ScareBear
09-19-2017, 07:00
Wow. SMH. Is that rage? Need some magic pal? If you are the voice of magic I don't think you're helping the cause by being mean and hateful. I'm glad that absolutely nothing important regarding the trail is up to you. Are you a member of this riff raff frat? I'm guessing you are? I thought about answering your questions but it only took two posts from you to realize that I and everybody else probably would be happier if they just ignored you. You have nothing to teach us and we have nothing to learn from fury. I will say this in closing if you can figure out where I live and what's there then you should know we have no interest in what's happening to "your" trail to happen to "ours" so yes we're very interested in this issue. I am. So are about 16,000 people who have viewed this thread I guess. It appears to be much ado about something buddy. Try yoga and some green tea with honey to get the chi flowing. Let's not talk anymore. Thank you.
LMAO! You are one funny troller. You don't even hike the AT and yet here you are. Posting in Appalachian Trail Forums and citing the ATC about TM on the AT.
I am glad that you are so omniscient to realize that everybody else would probably happier if they just ignored me.
Here's the thing. You posted something that's been beaten like a dead horse here. Not once. Twice. And, you don't even hike the AT. It's a controversial subject. You don't have a horse in this race, but you sure enjoy flogging the dead one. That's the definition of a troll.
You don't like TM? Fine. Put forth some proposal, idea, thought, etc...THAT HASN'T BEEN BROUGHT OUT BEFORE ON THIS VERY SAME FREAKING FORUM!!! All you are doing is stirring the pot. Another troll-like behavior.
Here's the deal. You have your opinion. I have mine. You are not alone in yours. I am not alone in mine.
Quit the ad hominem-ing about me and my "fury" and uselessness to this Board. I am pretty sure you've been here before under a different name and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who has figured this out already.
Really? You leave unattended food in the woods and are proud of it. I am just amazed at the ignorance.
Given that commercial dehydrated hiker meals are packaged in plastic-lined foil packages so as to last 10-20 years on the shelf, I seriously doubt they emit any detectable odor. Even for a bear.
Offshore
09-19-2017, 07:41
Really? You leave unattended food in the woods and are proud of it. I am just amazed at the ignorance.
In bear-profuse NJ, the shelters have purpose-built bear boxes designed for food storage so it's a very different scenario than leaving food in a shelter structure itself. I'm on the AT in NJ pretty much every week, and it's pretty common to find extra food left behind in the bear boxes. It really is no different than food bags being stored overnight. There are plenty of food smells in the shelter areas that attract bears without worrying about the occasional factory sealed dehydrated meal sitting in a heavy gauge steel box purpose-built to prevent bears from accessing its contents.
MuddyWaters
09-19-2017, 10:53
It really is no different than food bags being stored overnight. s.
Yes it is
Its discarded stuff left behind by lazy persons who are unwilling to continue carrying their stuff. Eventually some nice person has to carry other lazy, selfish, ignorant slobs waste out.
Bear boxes are not hiker swap boxes...or garbage boxes
Nearly every shelter I come upon has some food some well meaning hiker has left behind. Usually it has degraded such I wouldn't feed it to a dog.
Bad idea to leave food of any kind in the shelters.
Given that commercial dehydrated hiker meals are packaged in plastic-lined foil packages so as to last 10-20 years on the shelf, I seriously doubt they emit any detectable odor. Even for a bear.
I don't know about bears, but I do know from first-hand experience that rodents will gladly chew through the foil to eat the contents.
The local conservation group at a pond near me says that feeding the ducks can cause problems, so I don't feed the ducks. Feeding the ducks would be cool and might make me happy, but I find other things to do. The ATC has clearly outlined the difference in harmful and harmless "magic" and explained the effects, if you feel like you want to practice the harmful type of magic, please just find something else to do.
Offshore
09-19-2017, 13:13
Yes it is
Its discarded stuff left behind by lazy persons who are unwilling to continue carrying their stuff. Eventually some nice person has to carry other lazy, selfish, ignorant slobs waste out.
Bear boxes are not hiker swap boxes...or garbage boxes
Calm down and re-read critically and in context, you'll discover that I was speaking in the terms of being a bear attractant - not of the correctness or incorrectness. The point evidently went over your head, despite standing on your soap box.
As to the propriety of leaving unopened, unexpired food items for other hikers is concerned, I'll leave that for one of the famous unending WB debates - but an unopened, unexpired food item in a bear box beats a cooler full of trash left randomly on the side of the trail.
I don't know about bears, but I do know from first-hand experience that rodents will gladly chew through the foil to eat the contents.
I'll consider that observation should I ever be inclined to leave a Mountain House meal in a shelter. To date, I have not done so.
The local conservation group at a pond near me says that feeding the ducks can cause problems, so I don't feed the ducks. Feeding the ducks would be cool and might make me happy, but I find other things to do. The ATC has clearly outlined the difference in harmful and harmless "magic" and explained the effects, if you feel like you want to practice the harmful type of magic, please just find something else to do.
I'll assume you're preaching to the choir here. If you review the thread (a daunting task, for sure) you'll see that I'm in agreement with the ATC policy. I guess I'm lucky to have done most of my AT miles at times and places where these hiker feeds aren't happening.
not a one. my cats love me
I'm a LW Groupie!!! LOL! :D
I'll consider that observation should I ever be inclined to leave a Mountain House meal in a shelter. To date, I have not done so.
I'll assume you're preaching to the choir here. If you review the thread (a daunting task, for sure) you'll see that I'm in agreement with the ATC policy. I guess I'm lucky to have done most of my AT miles at times and places where these hiker feeds aren't happening.
Yea, the second part of my post was just rambling, not aimed at anyone in particular.
First part was based off an instance where I was setting up to boil water, but the wife and I decided to hang out and catch a sunset in the middle of the river(giant pool on Ethan Pond trail/AT in the White's) first. Our sealed meals got left out, and 30 minutes later we came back and mine had been pretty well ransacked, no large footprints and many squirrel/chipmunks in the area though. They did leave my wife's Mango Sticky Rice meal alone, though, I guess they prefer Jerk Chicken.
Alligator
09-20-2017, 00:30
Some things even a mutant chipmunk/squirrel hybrid won't eat, even it is trail magic.
Puddlefish
09-20-2017, 08:28
Some things even a mutant chipmunk/squirrel hybrid won't eat, even it is trail magic.
There was a hungry dog nosing around the campfire begging for food. A guy asked the dog owner if he could feed his left over Knorr loaded mashed potatoes to the dog. The dog owner said "sure!" He dumped the potatoes on a rock for the dog to eat. The dog wanted nothing whatsoever to do do with those potatoes. I kind of looked back and forth between the potato donor and the dog owner, looking to see which of them would take responsibility for the clump of potatoes on the rock. It was still sitting there when I went to sleep. It's probably still there.
EuroPacker
10-03-2017, 08:34
Sounds like a dog with very high standards. Good for it!
There was a hungry dog nosing around the campfire begging for food. A guy asked the dog owner if he could feed his left over Knorr loaded mashed potatoes to the dog. The dog owner said "sure!" He dumped the potatoes on a rock for the dog to eat. The dog wanted nothing whatsoever to do do with those potatoes. I kind of looked back and forth between the potato donor and the dog owner, looking to see which of them would take responsibility for the clump of potatoes on the rock. It was still sitting there when I went to sleep. It's probably still there.
I'm not a thru hiker, and probably will not ever be one, but I have read stories. The two that stand out are. They have nothing to do with food.
Can't recall his name, but he thru hiked the AT by two complete day hikes. He was driving in back country and one of his tires gave out. Someone came by and had two sets of tire repair kits and just gave them to him.
Another was someone who hiked the very harsh Grand Enchantment Trail (Albuquerque to Phoenix). He was quite dehydrated and looking for a water cache. He goes by a house and asks if there is water in some tank. 15-20 minutes later, a lady drives by with a huge container of ice water and hands it to him. She said, "I thought you might like it cold."