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View Full Version : Which bear canisters are ok for Blood Mt? Smokies?



blw2
08-04-2017, 21:10
I've looked and looked, and can't come up with anything specific...just that a bear resistant container is required.

so that brings me to wonder

Who defines Bear Resistant?
does it need to be listed by IGBC? I can't find anyplace that says it does....
would an Ursack fit the bill?
Could I make my own cannister?

Honestly, I'm more interested in getting something rodent and racoon resistant... even perhaps more for use here locally in Florida or elsewhere not in bear country...so I'm thinking something like a ratsack.
but
I figure if I buy something maybe I should try to get a lightweight canister in case I ever want to hike the smokeys or Blood in the spring....
or just take my chances, keep it simple, and hope a rodent or coon doesn't climb down the line to my hanging bag....

Sarcasm the elf
08-04-2017, 21:45
If I recall from the original order, blood mountain requires a commercially built, hard sided container during the time of year specified. Ursaks are not acceptable under the order.

On a personal nite after a lifetime of hiking and camping, I bought a canister for the first time this year, a BV500, and have found it surprisingly convenient. With it I don't have to watch my food, hang my food, or take any real precautions beyond taking it out of my pack. Because I have a light setup to begin with it wasn't a huge inconvenience and I think I'm sticking with it.

Sarcasm the elf
08-04-2017, 21:47
Found it! Here's the actual USFS order:

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5351875.pdf

Venchka
08-04-2017, 22:07
Found it! Here's the actual USFS order:

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5351875.pdf

The order expired in 2016. Was a new order listed!?
blw2,
Are you actually planning to hike in the tiny area during the brief period specified in the expired order?
Or do you want a bear can for piece of mind?
If the later, the BV 500 is recognized by IGBC and the folks on the west coast. In other words, you can use it in California, Grand Teton National Park and Rocky Mountain National Park. And the 5 mile stretch of the AT for a couple 3 months.
Have fun.
Wayne


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Venchka
08-04-2017, 22:09
Should have said "spend the night?"
Wayne


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blw2
08-04-2017, 22:25
Honestly I'm not sure my use and need...mostly just researching. Planning to probably try to hike that section either next summer or next spring break.... and yeah I know I could just camp outside of the area....
and/or I may someday want to do some trails in the smokeys.

Mostly though, my thinking is along the lines of what elf just confirmed. In many ways it seems like it could be just plain easier.... even on local camps where I'm only worried about small critters. And if I need to buy something for the rodents, maybe I might as well consider getting something more future proof....

And thanks for posting that order. I couldn't find that in my searching. Funny how its written... I understand the intent, but I could make two, sell one it becomes "commercially made" then it's good to go.

Suzzz
08-05-2017, 00:42
I have a BV500 and I quite like it. I bought it for all the reasons mentioned above but mostly because it seemed like a big pain in the you know what to have to find an adequate tree, throw a rope and properly hang my food. And considering the weight difference between the bear canister and the bag/rope/carabiner combo, the weight penalty of the canister isn't that much more. I also like the fact that because my food is in a hard container, it doesn't get squashed by the other stuff in my backpack. So for me, it seemed like the perfect compromise.

blw2
08-05-2017, 06:20
ever hear any stories...or had issues yourself....with little critters chewing through a BV or similar? I've seen them chew right through 2x4's, wires, and other things....so I'd imagine they'd have no problem through the poly if they tried....

FatMan
08-05-2017, 07:01
The order expired in 2016. Was a new order listed!?Although I have never seen the new order I have spoken with two different USFS Rangers who indicated to me that a new order is in effect. Neither could tell me a new expiration date. Also, GATC friends say the order remains in effect. I wish the Forest Service would get it posted on their website.

MuddyWaters
08-05-2017, 08:32
Although I have never seen the new order I have spoken with two different USFS Rangers who indicated to me that a new order is in effect. Neither could tell me a new expiration date. Also, GATC friends say the order remains in effect. I wish the Forest Service would get it posted on their website.

261.51 Posting.
Posting is accomplished by:
(a) Placing a copy of the order imposing each prohibition in the offices of the Forest Supervisor and District Ranger, or equivalent officer who have jurisdiction over the lands (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=35c9cfb843c5ec9beb656c1a930348c8&term_occur=1&term_src=Title:36:Chapter:II:Part:261:Subpart:B:26 1.51) affected by the order, and
(b) Displaying each prohibition imposed by an order in such locations and manner as to reasonably bring the prohibition to the attention of the public.


If its not dispkayed, its not posted, and doesnt exist.
This is a requirement under 36 CFR
The law must be followed

Venchka
08-05-2017, 08:38
Correct me if I'm wrong. It happens.
I thought that the GSMNP had copied Glacier/Yellowstone and installed proper hanging hardware in the park? Are there still places that require a hard container?
DIY bear can: It has to pass IGBC or the other test in California.
Weight differential BV500 vs. hanging a bag: approximately 2 pounds. Food capacity of the BV500 is fixed. Hanging is variable.
Wayne


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rmitchell
08-05-2017, 08:41
As to the second part of the question regarding the Smoky Mountains, a canister is not needed. All campsites have a bear cable system.

I would recommend using a carribener to keep you food bag attached when a bear tries to shake the cables. Usually I will hang my entire pack with a large heavy duty garbage bag turned upside down to keep out rain and rodents. Just poke a small hole in the bottom center of the garbage bag to pass through a short cord attached to the food bag or pack.

Outside the park us the PCT method to hang.

Venchka
08-05-2017, 09:49
They are hanging challenged.
Wayne


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blw2
08-05-2017, 10:23
do you just not have a problem with rodents and coons when you hang?

Venchka
08-05-2017, 11:33
do you just not have a problem with rodents and coons when you hang?

Based on my experience with my bird feeders and 'coons in east Texas, 'coons can get to food in places you wouldn't believe.
On the other hand, it isn't called "the PCT method of hanging" for no reason. When done correctly it apparently works.
More research is in order. Let us know what the final answer is.
Wayne



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HooKooDooKu
08-05-2017, 23:07
Correct me if I'm wrong. It happens.
I thought that the GSMNP had copied Glacier/Yellowstone and installed proper hanging hardware in the park? Are there still places that require a hard container?
Yes indeed, GSMNP has bear cables installed at every back country campsite. Technically, bear canisters are not approved for use in GSMNP... but that's because their rules specify bear cables and hanging food and don't address the use of canisters.

gpburdelljr
08-05-2017, 23:22
From the ATC website:

"Bear canisters seasonally required for camping between Jarrard Gap and Neel Gap
(unknown date - present) A new U.S. Forest Service rule requires approved bear-resistant storage containers for overnight camping on a 5-mile stretch of the A.T. in the Chattahoochee National Forest between Jarrard Gap and Neel Gap, between March 1 and June 1 each year. This stretch is located between points 26.7 and 31.7 miles north of the southern terminus of the A.T. at Springer Moutain, Georgia, and includes Woods Hole Shelter, Slaughter Creek Campsite, and Blood Mountain Shelter. “Bear canisters” should be used to store food, food containers, garbage and toiletries. For more information, call the Chattahoochee - Oconee National Forest at (770) 297-3000 (tel:(770) 297-3000)."8

Venchka
08-06-2017, 08:57
From the ATC website:

"Bear canisters seasonally required for camping between Jarrard Gap and Neel Gap
(unknown date - present) A new U.S. Forest Service rule requires approved bear-resistant storage containers for overnight camping on a 5-mile stretch of the A.T. in the Chattahoochee National Forest between Jarrard Gap and Neel Gap, between March 1 and June 1 each year. This stretch is located between points 26.7 and 31.7 miles north of the southern terminus of the A.T. at Springer Moutain, Georgia, and includes Woods Hole Shelter, Slaughter Creek Campsite, and Blood Mountain Shelter. “Bear canisters” should be used to store food, food containers, garbage and toiletries. For more information, call the Chattahoochee - Oconee National Forest at (770) 297-3000 (tel:(770) 297-3000)."8

Very poorly written.
The canisters are only required for overnight camping. Walking through the 5 mile section does NOT require special food storage.
Editorial Opinion:
It has been stated on WhiteBlaze that the bear problem is due to car campers below the shelter leaving food and garbage out for the bears.
Why didn't the Forest Service consider closing the road to the campground? The End.
Wayne


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gpburdelljr
08-06-2017, 09:55
From the ATC website:

"Bear canisters seasonally required for camping between Jarrard Gap and Neel Gap
(unknown date - present) A new U.S. Forest Service rule requires approved bear-resistant storage containers for overnight camping on a 5-mile stretch of the A.T. in the Chattahoochee National Forest between Jarrard Gap and Neel Gap, between March 1 and June 1 each year. This stretch is located between points 26.7 and 31.7 miles north of the southern terminus of the A.T. at Springer Moutain, Georgia, and includes Woods Hole Shelter, Slaughter Creek Campsite, and Blood Mountain Shelter. “Bear canisters” should be used to store food, food containers, garbage and toiletries. For more information, call the Chattahoochee - Oconee National Forest at (770) 297-3000 (tel:(770) 297-3000)."8


Very poorly written.
The canisters are only required for overnight camping. Walking through the 5 mile section does NOT require special food storage.

I don't understand how it is poorly written. The ATC site clearly says you need the canister for overnight camping in that area, it doesn't say you need it for hiking through.

blw2
08-07-2017, 06:09
well one aspect that is poorly written, points to my original questions....
who determines what is "bear resistant" enough?
which canisters?
does Ursack count?
etc...
The way it's written, I could argue that putting food only in an odor barrier bag in my tent would be good enough. It's bear resistant in that it's blocking the smell..... but I'm sure that's not the 'intent'

gpburdelljr
08-07-2017, 08:13
well one aspect that is poorly written, points to my original questions....
who determines what is "bear resistant" enough?
which canisters?
does Ursack count?
etc...
The way it's written, I could argue that putting food only in an odor barrier bag in my tent would be good enough. It's bear resistant in that it's blocking the smell..... but I'm sure that's not the 'intent'

The ATC article says "approved bear resistant storage container", and it gives a local USFS phone number to call for more information if you are confused about what would be an "approved" container. If you don't want to make a phone call, you can spend about two minutes searching on the internet and find the actual order on the Chattahoochee National Forest website. Or you could tell the ranger, as he writes you a ticket, "I thought an odor bag was good enough".

Venchka
08-07-2017, 09:07
Two links would be very helpful. The IGBC approved list and the California approved list. Products on either list are acceptable.
Problem solved.
Wayne


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gwschenk
08-07-2017, 09:32
Weight differential BV500 vs. hanging a bag: approximately 2 pounds. Food capacity of the BV500 is fixed. Hanging is variable.


The hanging method is much lighter, especially after the bear has eaten all your food.

In the California National Parks no method of hanging will keep the bears out of your food. It's only a matter of time before the bears in the east figure it out, too. Canisters keep the bears safe from your food.

I pretty much carry my Bearikade on every trip nowadays. The thruhikers in Washington made fun of me, but that's what you'd expect from a bunch of know-nothing rookies.

Venchka
08-07-2017, 09:38
The following link further highlights the disparity of thinking within the National Park and Forest Service. If the IGBC list works in Denali, why not in the rest of the USA?
https://www.nps.gov/dena/planyourvisit/brfc.htm
Suggestion:
Call the phone number in the ATC announcement. Ask this: "May I use a bear resistant food storage container listed on the IGBC June 2017 list?"
Good luck.
Wayne


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HooKooDooKu
08-07-2017, 11:01
The ATC article says "approved bear resistant storage container", and it gives a local USFS phone number to call for more information if you are confused about what would be an "approved" container. If you don't want to make a phone call, you can spend about two minutes searching on the internet and find the actual order on the Chattahoochee National Forest website. Or you could tell the ranger, as he writes you a ticket, "I thought an odor bag was good enough".
So I checked out the Chattahoochee National Forest website. Found a link to the original order (https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5351875.pdf).
The order regarding approved containers simply states
must be commercially made; constructed of solid, non-pliable material manufactured for the specific purpose of resisting entry by bears. Doesn't point to any list of approved canisters.

I'm sure anyone making a good faith attempt at following the regulations wouldn't be getting a ticket.
Perhaps the only thing that might cause some issues would be the use of a Ursack. The IGBC website indicates that certain Ursacks now have IGBC certification (http://igbconline.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/170712_Certified_-Products_List.pdf), but because it's not made of "solid" material would not meed Chattahoochee National Forest regulations.

On a side note, I find it interesting that the Beridkade canisters are NOT IGBC certified, but many places out west (Yosemite as an example) approve them for use.

Venchka
08-07-2017, 15:41
And the variations grow. Hike where the only rule is self reliance.
Wayne


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MuddyWaters
08-07-2017, 16:04
So I checked out the Chattahoochee National Forest website. Found a link to the original order (https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5351875.pdf).
The order regarding approved containers simply states . Doesn't point to any list of approved canisters.

I'm sure anyone making a good faith attempt at following the regulations wouldn't be getting a ticket.
Perhaps the only thing that might cause some issues would be the use of a Ursack. The IGBC website indicates that certain Ursacks now have IGBC certification (http://igbconline.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/170712_Certified_-Products_List.pdf), but because it's not made of "solid" material would not meed Chattahoochee National Forest regulations.

On a side note, I find it interesting that the Beridkade canisters are NOT IGBC certified, but many places out west (Yosemite as an example) approve them for use.
It states any commercial, hard container, made and sold to redist bears is acceptable. What else you want?

No need for igbc cert where theres no grizzlys.....

As been said before, YOU must scare off bears trying to get your food. No container is foolproof. They resist bear play for only 1 hr in testing by igbc gor instance. Not all night, not a lifetime of use.

And ursack was not tied to tree when tested by igbc, its only way of deployment....why? Witness the CT hiker whisr bottom was ripped out of his 6 weeks ago when tied to tree....by a black bear.

blw2
08-07-2017, 20:24
so a person has to call to find out.... yep, poorly written.

Venchka
08-08-2017, 05:28
I would not be a bit surprised to learn that the Feds don't know that the Ursacks are approved by IGBC while the solid body Bearikades are not.
You could always carry a 50 cal. ammo can.
Wayne

HooKooDooKu
08-08-2017, 09:49
You could always carry a 50 cal. ammo can.
An ammo can wouldn't be allowed based on the Chattahoochee National Forest rules quoted above...

manufactured for the specific purpose of resisting entry by bears

blw2
08-08-2017, 15:53
ha ha...yeah. It doesn't have to be good at it, just manufactured for that purpose. too funny!

Venchka
08-12-2017, 17:41
ha ha...yeah. It doesn't have to be good at it, just manufactured for that purpose. too funny!

Your tax dollars in action.
Wayne



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glenlawson
08-12-2017, 18:23
I wonder what would happen to the Blood Mtn restrictions if the Forest Service and Vogel State park installed bear boxes? Bears can get a feast every night in Vogel State Park, Memorial Day through Labor Day. There is/was a private campground on GA 180 near Brasstown Bald that has/had poorly managed dumpsters that were essentially feeding bears. I wasn't surprised when we ran into a ridge runner at Chattahoochee Gap who wanted to help us make sure we knew how to hang our food because of a couple of problem bears.

As much as I hear about bears in North Georgia, it seems that we'd better get a handle on how humans are feeding the bears or they will be like 250 pound squirrels with sharing issues. We saw this all over when we traveled out west this summer "a fed bear is a dead bear".

In California parks, you can't even leave a cooler in your car because the bears have learned to identify a cooler as a source of food. The bear will break into your car and then the ranger will write you a ticket.

Venchka
08-12-2017, 19:10
It's not rocket science. Yellowstone, Glacier and all of the parks in the Canadian Rockies have a handle on people and bears without resorting to canisters except in a few very remote areas where boxes or poles aren't provided.
Please excuse the tread drift.
50 caliber ammo cans are specifically modified in Montana for use around bears and would therefore qualify as built for the purpose.
Wayne


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