When does AT visitor level become unsustainable?

[GoLight]

There has been an unprecedented growth in users of the AT over the past 10 years. The trend shows every indication that user-ship will at least remain constant and it will probably even accelerate. At what level does it become unsustainable? When will we see more restrictions like the ones in GSMNP? When will we have to purchase a pass to hike it all? And another dam*ed thing, why is the AT so overwhelming popular? Can´t some of us focus on other trails that are just as pretty, just as challenging and just as convenient?

[blw2]

I think in a way your last question points to the answer of your previous one, perhaps. The AT is known, the others not so much.

I'm looking to do my 1st section next summer hopefully....not so much to do the AT, but because it's a known entity, it's well documented so I can figure out where to go, well supported for shuttles, etc... also the bit of "mystic" that goes along with it.... and perhaps the hope or dream that some day I could come back and do the next section...and the next....
Personally, if I knew of other options I would certainly consider them. I just want a nice trip, spend a week on the trail. A loop in some ways would be more ideal in my case....except that sortof takes away that dream of future sections....

[Tipi Walter]

More people drive than hike, otherwise you'd expect a heavily used foot trail like the AT to be augmented with other equally long trails to accommodate the traffic. New Interstates are built for this reason but not so long trails. The BMT comes to mind but it's only 300 miles long and mostly uses old existing trails. Foot trails are a low priority in our Car culture.

Wouldn't it be nice if more Americans hiked and more long trails were getting built? Instead of more highways?

[moldy]

My opinion is that we are not even near the limit in numbers to cause any type of restrictions. We all have a different definition of "overcrowded". This years trips to the AT I encountered less than a hundred other hikers each day. Encountering a few people every 30 minutes must be OK because I keep coming back. If I wanted to be alone I would go off-trail, or I could go to a Mets game.

[Tennessee Viking]

Opening more long trails or alternative routes like the BMT and GET will help. Besides the ATC has helped pioneered stewardship and trail maintenance. The trail has been relocated and rehabbed to be more sustainable in the last 15 years than ever before.

[rickb]

My opinion is that we are not even near the limit in numbers to cause any type of restrictions. We all have a different definition of "overcrowded". This years trips to the AT I encountered less than a hundred other hikers each day. Encountering a few people every 30 minutes must be OK because I keep coming back. If I wanted to be alone I would go off-trail, or I could go to a Mets game.

Agreed.

Its some of he privies and shelter areas that are at their limit, not the AT.

How one defines a problem can drive the solution.

If one defines the problem as simply "too many people", the remedy can only be to reduce their number.

If one defines the problem more specifically, a range of solutions can be considered.

[HooKooDooKu]

When will we see more restrictions like the ones in GSMNP?
Compared to 'General' GSMNP backpackers, there are no restrictions on AT thru hikers... actually quite the opposite. GSMNP has made allowances for AT Thru hikers that 'General' backpackers don't enjoy (such as not requiring that you get reservations for each campsite/shelter that you stay at, and allowing camping around the shelters when the shelters are full).

However, it looks like Baxter State Park has already launched the 1st salvo when it comes to restrictions... with the introduction of the A.T.-Hiker Permits (limited to 3,150/season).

But I could easily foresee a time in the near future where GSMNP begins something like daily or weekly limit on the number of AT thru hiker permits issued if the AT shelters in the park become too over-whelmed.

[evyck da fleet]

This.

Compared to some of the local trails near Atlanta the AT is a nice alternative. Privy management and finding people who want to maintain them could put a limit on overnighters. I don't see a problem with day use which is the majority of the trail use.

[saltysack]

I smell WAG bags in the future!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kaptainkriz]

I see this ad a self limiting problem. Most of the people experiencing the AT, at least in Maryland, are not through hikers. They are day hikers and weekenders. In Maryland where I live, the nature of the limitation is painfully obvious to me. There is no parking! When the roadside lots are packed to the gills, people go elsewhere. Parking and access are the limiting factors imho, not the trail itself. We know we have a problem when someone proposes parking garages at the trail heads. :)

[tour-kid]

some of us focus on other trails that are just as pretty, just as challenging and just as convenient?

Alot of us do. I only use the AT in 'off-season'
Something about crowds, trash, and little wads of toilet paper turns my attention elsewhere.

[MuddyWaters]

There has been an unprecedented growth in users of the AT over the past 10 years. The trend shows every indication that user-ship will at least remain constant and it will probably even accelerate. At what level does it become unsustainable? When will we see more restrictions like the ones in GSMNP? When will we have to purchase a pass to hike it all? And another dam*ed thing, why is the AT so overwhelming popular? Can´t some of us focus on other trails that are just as pretty, just as challenging and just as convenient?

If you define unsustainable in terms of negative user experience as it relates to effects of crowds of people.....way past already part of year.

You could probably sleep 30 persons in your house, but do you want to live that way?
No.

[TJ aka Teej]

When does AT visitor level become unsustainable?
About ten years ago.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I smell WAG bags in the future!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You can smell the future? What kind of a cut rate time machine is this?!

[gpburdelljr]

More people drive than hike, otherwise you'd expect a heavily used foot trail like the AT to be augmented with other equally long trails to accommodate the traffic. New Interstates are built for this reason but not so long trails. The BMT comes to mind but it's only 300 miles long and mostly uses old existing trails. Foot trails are a low priority in our Car culture.

Wouldn't it be nice if more Americans hiked and more long trails were getting built? Instead of more highways?
It's easy to find a road route, because it doesn't have to be in the forest. Finding long stretches of forest for a trail is difficult.

[Another Kevin]

You can smell the future? What kind of a cut rate time machine is this?!

No, you parsed that wrong. He's foretelling a future of smelling WAG bags. Phew!

[Another Kevin]

More people drive than hike, otherwise you'd expect a heavily used foot trail like the AT to be augmented with other equally long trails to accommodate the traffic. New Interstates are built for this reason but not so long trails. The BMT comes to mind but it's only 300 miles long and mostly uses old existing trails. Foot trails are a low priority in our Car culture.

Wouldn't it be nice if more Americans hiked and more long trails were getting built? Instead of more highways?

Some places are working on it. It's agonizingly slow, both because of lack of labor and because of bureaucracy. But in my part of the world I see progress. New York Long Path (which has always, where feasible, been a route rather than a trail, but trail development is often necessary to protect a corridor) has added a number of sections in recent years.

Shawangunk Ridge Otisville section
Mamakating
Vernooy Kill (not yet open - the forest fires in the Shawangunks the past few years have delayed it)
Romer Mountain
Warner Creek
Gifford Farm

In the same period, there have been three major pieces added to the Northville-Placid: Northville to Woods Lake; Woods Lake to Upper Benson, and Wakely Dam to Stephens Pond, eliminating significant roadwalking.

It's been "three steps forward and two steps back," because in the same period we've lost Huntersfield (a single landowner not only revoked an 'irrevocable' trail easement, but also started buying up narrow strips of adjacent parcels to block the trail from being relocated nearby), and Roemer High Point (a new land purchaser revoked an easement). Neither case appears to have involved hiker behaviour; just an "it's all MINE!" attitude on the part of the landowners. (This summer, there's been a seemingly endless closure at Indian Ladder after a hiker was struck by falling rock. I thought that was a natural hazard of a cliffside trail, but the parks department seems to think it's a catastrophe. And not quite everything is rebuilt from the fires, but it's coming along.)

Some of the problems may be too late to solve (there's no good way across Orange County, and no good way across the Mohawk Valley), but it is possible to thru-hike from a subway station in Manhattan to the Adirondacks - and indeed, as of last year, 150 people had the patch. The trip out of suburbia is endless (but surprisingly pleasant), but the stretches of the trail between Otisville and Wawarsing and again between Riggsville and Conesville are awesome. (I've section-hiked those.) When I retire, if my physical condition allows, I want to thru-hike it myself, with a twist: the original description lays out a route beyond Great Sacandaga Lake up to the Adirondacks. With the state's purchase of Finch Pruyn, something approximating that route has been possible again, as it has not been since the Second World War because of posted lands. I'm itching to explore it. The finish of such a hike would be amazing: a traverse of the Adirondack Great Range and Mount Marcy, and exit through Avalanche Pass. All in all, it would be about a 500 or 600-mile trip with a handful of long bushwhacks near the north end to make the connections.

I'm intrigued with the idea of hiking from the Big City to the High Peaks. From 'slackpack through city parks, taking the bus to a motel at the end of the day' for the first few days, through 'trail walking', 'TOUGH trail walking', 'back to slackpacking through the farm country', and 'trying to follow century-abandoned haul roads through beaver swamp and high mountains', to 'wrapping it up with a grand zig-zag on established trails.' From the sidewalk in the concrete canyons to the rock above timber line.

I dream of that more than of an AT thru hike. Heresy, I know, but the idea of spending half a year in a hiker bubble just doesn't capture my imagination, while doing the research and exploration to recover an old route and maybe lay the groundwork for others to follow - that sounds like a fine project.

Also, in my part of the world, the North Country Trail is being worked on.

There's hope for us yet.

[Tipi Walter]

but trail development is often necessary to protect a corridor)



Some of the problems may be too late to solve (there's no good way across Orange County, and no good way across the Mohawk Valley), but it is possible to thru-hike from a subway station in Manhattan to the Adirondacks - and indeed, as of last year, 150 people had the patch. The trip out of suburbia is endless (but surprisingly pleasant),

There's hope for us yet.

I'd say these two points are why building new long distance foot trails are much more difficult than say building new highways. Highways do not protect a corridor (and in fact destroy trail corridors) and highways--development (or sprawl) are themselves part of Suburbia.

Here's the taste test in my opinion---Can you backpack these new trails and camp every night by the trail? If yes then it's a genuine foot trail---If not then it's a Day Use Only urban greenway. Perhaps more and more of our foot trails are becoming so designated---no camping allowed --- as urban sprawl inches closer and closer to undeveloped land, i.e. the AT corridor.

[Deadeye]

To add to Another Kevin's point: there are lots of options for making multi-day to multi-week routes in many parts of the US. That doesn't help those that have it in their heads to hike the AT, but if you simply like long-distance hiking, and want to avoid crowds, making your own route (legally!) through public lands is a very good option.

[swisscross]

My opinion is that we are not even near the limit in numbers to cause any type of restrictions. We all have a different definition of "overcrowded". This years trips to the AT I encountered less than a hundred other hikers each day. Encountering a few people every 30 minutes must be OK because I keep coming back. If I wanted to be alone I would go off-trail, or I could go to a Mets game.
Close to a hundred a day...that alone would make me want to home elsewhere. I am lucky. My last three multi days hikes ( few days each) I have seen a total of, wait for it, one other backpacker and one runner. Total of two people in about twelve days.

Seeing 100 people a day....is over crowded.

[Another Kevin]

I'd say these two points are why building new long distance foot trails are much more difficult than say building new highways. Highways do not protect a corridor (and in fact destroy trail corridors) and highways--development (or sprawl) are themselves part of Suburbia.

Here's the taste test in my opinion---Can you backpack these new trails and camp every night by the trail? If yes then it's a genuine foot trail---If not then it's a Day Use Only urban greenway. Perhaps more and more of our foot trails are becoming so designated---no camping allowed --- as urban sprawl inches closer and closer to undeveloped land, i.e. the AT corridor.

The new sections that I referred to are replacing rural roadwalks (no camping) with off-road trails (on state land, dispersed camping allowed). The Riggsville-to-Conesville section of the trail is now entirely off road (with the exception of the road bridge in Phoenicia, which is a great trail town and placed just exactly where anyone thru-hiking would need to resupply anyway). That 110-mile section looks like a Thomas Cole painting and has challenges comparable to New Hampshire (no above-treeline weather, but the scrambling is just as hard).

The first few days out of NYC are no-camping. You're right, it's a walk in an urban greenway - and has been since the trail was first planned out in the 1930's. Once you hit Big Hill shelter in Harriman (mile 45.8), you can indeed camp every night, although there are some rural roadwalks, mostly on gravel roads in the woods, that would mean you have to plan your sections carefully. That's as far as Altamont (347 miles from NYC, the current northern terminus for a "thru hike").

There's no connection through the Mohawk Valley, but that's local to me, so I could get shuttled and stay at home for a night or three. There are a few camping opportunities, but not enough for a slowpoke like me to get through that section. Still. I surely wouldn't mind having the opportunity to get cleaned up and spend some time with my wife!

Beyond Great Sacandaga Lake, the last 100-150 miles are No Problem At All for camping - pretty much all on state land. Although I'd have to do some negotiation, because I wouldn't be entering High Peaks Wilderness by any of the trailheads, so I'd have nowhere to pick up my permit for that section. The rangers bend over backward to be accommodating if you know what you're doing, though, so I don't anticipate trouble - just have to ask in advance. There are a lot of places up there where the original described route is still on some sort of (mostly unmarked) trail, but some where I'd be in quite some doubt.. I've surely not heard of anyone thru-hiking the original route. The hikers who want to continue to the Adirondacks, that I've heard of, have all done so on the 138-mile Northville-Placid Trail. I've already thru-hiked that one.

Resupply up there would be a bigger issue than camping, since I don't carry your kind of load. But I've not planned in any kind of detail, since I'm hoping it'll still be a few years before I do this.

I think that the contrast of riding into NYC by train, spending the first few nights in a motel in Jersey and getting shuttled off the trail by city bus, and then moving on into actual woodland hiking, ending up in the biggest contiguous Wilderness Area in the East, would be part of the charm of such a trip. From quite literally walking the shoulder of a freeway eventually giving way to bushwhacking in remote mountains. Gradually getting free of the concrete jungle. Of course, that might not be to your taste, but your extended trips in winter would likewise not be to mine.

[Cosmo]

Managing visitor use on a trail like the AT is very complex. What might seem to be good solutions in one area can have unintended consequences on another location. Multiple land managing agencies (NPS, USFS, various state agencies) make it even more complicated to develop a uniform policy. In addition, a significant change to management of federal land may trigger a NEPA (National Environmental Policy Act) review.

However, ATC and federal partners are beginning to make efforts to address visitor use in some high demand areas such as Franconia Ridge and northern Georgia. The mechanism for action is detailed in the Interagency Visitor Use Management (IVUM) Framework https://visitorusemanagement.nps.gov/VUM/Framework ,which outlines a multi-step process to plan, implement and review visitor management issues.

Jumping directly to "solutions", such as the quota imposed by BSP, is antithetical to the IVUM process. While it may be something that works in the highly managed access, single partner world of BSP, the rest of the Trail is highly "porous" with multiple access points, high use by "casual" hikers out for the day or a few hours, and involves multiple, publically-accountable management partners. Further, the AT does not see high use everywhere, nor are the qualities that make up a "wilderness" (or whatever you want to call it) experience the same from location to location.

A nuanced approach that is developed specifically for issues at individual locations will likely be the most effective approach. Bear Mountain NY, is not the same as southern VT, and management goals will necessarily be different.

Stay tuned, and be ready to participate thoughtfully.

Cosmo

[moldy]

Perhaps instead of talking about limiting the number of hikers we should be advocating increasing the number of parking lots, campsites, shelters and privy's. It's the long neglected infrastructure that's over-crowded not the trail.

[LIhikers]

The first few days out of NYC are no-camping. You're right, it's a walk in an urban greenway - and has been since the trail was first planned out in the 1930's.

AK, there's no legal camping but I've talked to one of the patch holders that did it anyway.
He just waited until after dark to set up camp in places that were out of sight.

[Another Kevin]

AK, there's no legal camping but I've talked to one of the patch holders that did it anyway.
He just waited until after dark to set up camp in places that were out of sight.
Yeah. I also know people who've obtained permission to camp at Alpine. But:


Tipi Walter is essentially right that the first 45 miles (Manhattan to Mount Ivy) are indeed an urban greenway. The fact that anyone with decent stealth-camping skills could most likely pass undetected at Alpine, Hook Mountain or High Tor doesn't really change that.
I still think the experience of hiking out of the big city through suburbia, being supported by city bus the first couple of days, and then gradually moving through dairies and orchards (by way of Harriman) and finally into real mountains, would have a charm all its own.
40143

In any case, we're straying rather far from the topic of the thread. The principal point I was trying to make when we got sidetracked was that if we don't confine ourselves to the 'big name' trails, there's an immense amount of good hiking to be had, most of it quite uncrowded indeed, and at least near me, it's only gotten better in recent years. It won't be the social experience of the big trails, nor will it have the intense community support that they have, but frankly, that's not the experience that I'm after.

I'll happily tolerate the major trails - because they get people out into the Big Blue Room. As Just Bill says, they're the "recruiting office" for outdoors enthusiasts, conservationists, and supportive voters and politicians. That's well worth the sacrificial immolation of part of our trail system, I think. But spending half a year inside a Terry Coyle video would be, to me, a horrible torture.

[Curious G]

And another dam*ed thing, why is the AT so overwhelming popular? Can´t some of us focus on other trails that are just as pretty, just as challenging and just as convenient?

I'm guessing it just might be the "trail magic" issue. Feed bear - get more bear. Feed hikers - get more hikers. Rocket surgery. We could go hiking where there's are free buffets or somewhere else and actually have to buy all our food. I'm guessing that's why the Conservancy now takes a dim view on it at least in part along with the Long Distance Association etc.

[nsherry61]

Personally, I like the idea of everyone continuing to hike the AT. That leaves the rest of the trails, the ones I find most appealing, less crowded.

Keep the AT as the markee trail. Keep telling everyone how wonderful it is. Let the masses of newbies hone their hiking craft on the big, dirty, rutted, over-crowded trail and let the ones that love it and learn to respect it then move on to the other more wild and wonderful offerings around us.

So, to the OP . . . sustainable is in the eye and nose of the beholder. It is only "unsustainable" when people decide it is to busy, to dirty, and to stinky to leave it the way it is. As the above posts suggest, it is long past being sustainable, and at the same time, it will never be unsustainable, just undesirable for an increasing number of users.

[Cosmo]

That's certainly an option, Moldy--but there comes a point when all that infrastructure becomes more than a trail club can maintain. Of course we could turn it over to the government to take care of....

Seriously, we should think about what more facilities (or even the facilities we do already have) would do to a hiker's experiences on the Trail. Then we move on to the question of just what experiences should we try and preserve or create? If the majority of users are day hikers (at least in terms of raw numbers of humans on the Trail), we should be focusing on trailhead expansion and treadway hardening instead of more overnight sites. If we want to preserve a sense of "wilderness" (with a small "W"), we should have simpler, more primitive campsites, and maybe fewer shelters. A big part of the IVUM Framework I mention in an earlier post is figuring out what visitor experiences we should be protecting/enhancing and what experiences we want to reduce or eliminate. A term of art of that is called "desired future condition"--what we're aiming to accomplish with whatever management efforts we end up choosing to bring to bear.

I submit that those experiences or conditions will be different for different sections of the Trail. Some parts would have attributes such as high visitation, the likelyhood of encountering numerous hikers, and more built-out overnight sites, while attributes to preserve for other areas could include seeing fewer hikers, a greater opportunity for solitude, and more primitive overnight sites. This is further complicated when one considers that time is another factor in the mix. There are definitely segments of Trail where visitation is very high at certain times of year (or even times of day, or days of the week) and considerably less so at others.

Of course finding balance is the tricky bit, and developing some means to manage that balance with the least amount of regulation will be very difficult. More infrastructure (in my opinion), is not always the answer--and my club comes from a tradition of a fairly high number (14 in just 90 miles) of highly managed overnight sites briming with high capacity shelters, tent platforms and tent pads, bear boxes, moldering privies, and hardened trails to water sources. We've embraced the "more is better" approach, but I'm beginning to wonder if that in turn is just attracting more hikers.

Definitely a lot of pieces to this puzzle.

Cosmo


Perhaps instead of talking about limiting the number of hikers we should be advocating increasing the number of parking lots, campsites, shelters and privy's. It's the long neglected infrastructure that's over-crowded not the trail.

[Curious G]

http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/25/news/economy/tourism-backlash-europe/index.html

The idea that 'I'm glad the AT is crowded because it leaves the other trails empty for me to enjoy' is kinda like saying 'Well, I'm glad we can dump toxic waste into the ground somewhere else so it won't bother anybody here!" Ah, that's not how it works. I found this related article interesting and on point. A message to would be tourists from tourist destinations: please stay home and if you must travel don't come here.

[Tundracamper]

That's why I like to hike in the winter. On the southern end, the trail is generally empty of hikers. Folks don't seem to like the 20 degree weather. I do.

[Traveler]

That's certainly an option, Moldy--but there comes a point when all that infrastructure becomes more than a trail club can maintain. Of course we could turn it over to the government to take care of....

Seriously, we should think about what more facilities (or even the facilities we do already have) would do to a hiker's experiences on the Trail. Then we move on to the question of just what experiences should we try and preserve or create? If the majority of users are day hikers (at least in terms of raw numbers of humans on the Trail), we should be focusing on trailhead expansion and treadway hardening instead of more overnight sites. If we want to preserve a sense of "wilderness" (with a small "W"), we should have simpler, more primitive campsites, and maybe fewer shelters. A big part of the IVUM Framework I mention in an earlier post is figuring out what visitor experiences we should be protecting/enhancing and what experiences we want to reduce or eliminate. A term of art of that is called "desired future condition"--what we're aiming to accomplish with whatever management efforts we end up choosing to bring to bear.

I submit that those experiences or conditions will be different for different sections of the Trail. Some parts would have attributes such as high visitation, the likelyhood of encountering numerous hikers, and more built-out overnight sites, while attributes to preserve for other areas could include seeing fewer hikers, a greater opportunity for solitude, and more primitive overnight sites. This is further complicated when one considers that time is another factor in the mix. There are definitely segments of Trail where visitation is very high at certain times of year (or even times of day, or days of the week) and considerably less so at others.

Of course finding balance is the tricky bit, and developing some means to manage that balance with the least amount of regulation will be very difficult. More infrastructure (in my opinion), is not always the answer--and my club comes from a tradition of a fairly high number (14 in just 90 miles) of highly managed overnight sites briming with high capacity shelters, tent platforms and tent pads, bear boxes, moldering privies, and hardened trails to water sources. We've embraced the "more is better" approach, but I'm beginning to wonder if that in turn is just attracting more hikers.

Definitely a lot of pieces to this puzzle.

Cosmo

Both this and your former discussion were well written, removing the overarching "the AT needs more/better/different management and put the issue into localized context. Its the volunteers who are mostly responsible for trail maintenance along with structure and infrastructure maintenance. Thats where the localized solutions will probably be managed from. I especially liked your point about the differences between day hikers/trail attractions drawing high traffic and the overwhelming majority of trail that is not associated with those features. There is a considerable difference between how these two types of trail miles will/can be managed.

[Tipi Walter]

That's why I like to hike in the winter. On the southern end, the trail is generally empty of hikers. Folks don't seem to like the 20 degree weather. I do.

I call this the Just Right phenomenon. Many hikers and backpackers are in the Just Right crowd---they'll only come out in good conditions---no long rainstorms, no temps under freezing, no high winds, no deep snow, no yellow jackets, no pit vipers etc.

[nsherry61]

. . . The idea that 'I'm glad the AT is crowded because it leaves the other trails empty for me to enjoy' is kinda like saying 'Well, I'm glad we can dump toxic waste into the ground somewhere else so it won't bother anybody here!". . .
I disagree.

I am not suggesting that we dump toxic waste in anyone's backyard in preference to mine. I am suggesting that we keep the toxic waste in the toxic waste dump (either your back yard or mine) and yes, go ahead and build the necessary infrastructure to support it instead of spreading waste into everyone's backyard.

It is more like, "Please support that 8 lane bypass road around the center of our small town so that people in a hurry aren't clogging up our small town streets and our small town streets can stay quiet and quaint and not keep slowing down the people in a hurry." Then yes, if you want to come visit our town, come on down and enjoy the quiet open streets instead of the disgusting traffic snarl that you find in those other small towns that didn't have the foresight to discourage thru-traffic going through the middle of their town.

Or, it's like urban planning where you build infrastructure to support the masses where the masses are and limit the sprawl in outlying areas so there is affordable land for farmers to grow food and areas for parks beyond the fountains in a mall.

[saltysack]

That's why I like to hike in the winter. On the southern end, the trail is generally empty of hikers. Folks don't seem to like the 20 degree weather. I do.

Couldn't agree more..i normally hike the SE from Oct-early April...only once have I run into a crowd due to my lack of thinking....Carter gap mid march....normally I see less than 5-10 people in a 4 day trip.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tipi Walter]

Couldn't agree more..i normally hike the SE from Oct-early April...only once have I run into a crowd due to my lack of thinking....Carter gap mid march....normally I see less than 5-10 people in a 4 day trip.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's actually alot of people in my experience. I commonly go 18 or 20 days without seeing a human; one time pulled a 24 day winter trip and saw only one group of backpackers in that time.

[Curious G]

I disagree.

I am not suggesting that we dump toxic waste in anyone's backyard in preference to mine. I am suggesting that we keep the toxic waste in the toxic waste dump (either your back yard or mine) and yes, go ahead and build the necessary infrastructure to support it instead of spreading waste into everyone's backyard.

It is more like, "Please support that 8 lane bypass road around the center of our small town so that people in a hurry aren't clogging up our small town streets and our small town streets can stay quiet and quaint and not keep slowing down the people in a hurry." Then yes, if you want to come visit our town, come on down and enjoy the quiet open streets instead of the disgusting traffic snarl that you find in those other small towns that didn't have the foresight to discourage thru-traffic going through the middle of their town.

Or, it's like urban planning where you build infrastructure to support the masses where the masses are and limit the sprawl in outlying areas so there is affordable land for farmers to grow food and areas for parks beyond the fountains in a mall.

No free lunch - no free lunch crowd.

[KCNC]

Funny you should mention "other trails"

NC has the MST (Mountains to Sea Trail) that runs from Clingman's Dome to Jockey's Ridge on the Outer Banks. It was proposed about 39 years, 51 weeks, 3 days ago. On September 10 there's a "MST in a Day" event to raise awareness for the trail to help drive completion. (In many areas it just runs along secondary roads.)

Of the 300 segments about 240-250 are covered. My family is signed up for 4 segments (including my wife, who is in kidney failure!) and we may cover a couple more to help knock it all out. I just became aware of the event a couple of weeks ago and I suspect others may not be aware, so if you're in or near NC (specifically the SE corner, around Wilmington-Jacksonville) check out the MST In a Day web page and sign up for a segment or three.

It's 1175 miles end-end, which is a decent trek. When it's completed as a "real" trail I suspect it will draw a fair bit of traffic.

As far as "Why the AT?" For me it's a culmination of 40 years of thinking and anticipation. An older cousin mentioned a section hike to me when I was 10 years old, but it never came to fruition. I've thought about it off and on in the years since and have started on preparations to start tacking some sections and hope that one day I can take the time for a thru hike.

[ki0eh]

Benton MacKaye, 92 years ago proposed the A.T. as part of a network of paths in the East. Many groups, from Alabama through Maine, have been working on spurs of the network, especially since the 1960's.

Many of these have camping areas, some have shelters, most have maps and maintaining groups. Some of these, especially in the mid-Atlantic, have better scenery than the A.T. can boast in the region.

Yet most have not enough traffic to beat a footway between the blazes. A set of these joined together for more recognition as Great Eastern Trail. GET has had three (one, two, three, that's 3, total) thru-hikers. One of the first two was also an A.T. SOBO thru and wrote this to compare: http://www.gethiking.net/p/at-vs-get.html

Pennsylvania's Mid State Trail began in 1969, and has been described as crossing the state on a route slightly longer than Long Trail since 2008. There are still more people who have been documented to be on the moon, than have been recognized as an end-to-end hiker on this route.

When you complain about traffic, bear in mind you are also the traffic. Maybe start looking around.

[Another Kevin]

Benton MacKaye, 92 years ago proposed the A.T. as part of a network of paths in the East. Many groups, from Alabama through Maine, have been working on spurs of the network, especially since the 1960's.

Many of these have camping areas, some have shelters, most have maps and maintaining groups. Some of these, especially in the mid-Atlantic, have better scenery than the A.T. can boast in the region.

Yet most have not enough traffic to beat a footway between the blazes. A set of these joined together for more recognition as Great Eastern Trail. GET has had three (one, two, three, that's 3, total) thru-hikers. One of the first two was also an A.T. SOBO thru and wrote this to compare: http://www.gethiking.net/p/at-vs-get.html

Pennsylvania's Mid State Trail began in 1969, and has been described as crossing the state on a route slightly longer than Long Trail since 2008. There are still more people who have been documented to be on the moon, than have been recognized as an end-to-end hiker on this route.

When you complain about traffic, bear in mind you are also the traffic. Maybe start looking around.

This.

In NY, I think I'd much rather do the NY Long Path, or the Finger Lakes Trail, or the Shawangunk Ridge Trail, or the Highlands Trail. (I've already done the Northville-Placid Trail.) The AT in New York is nothing to write home about - it's more that NY is in the way and the AT has to get across it somewhere. The secondary trails are very much a mixed bag, but the good parts are awesome, while the AT in NY is at best mediocre. (NY is mostly in the way - the AT wants to get to New England and has to cross somewhere.)

But hikers seem to want services at every trailhead and road crossing, and are very much put off by the work-in-progress nature of the secondary trails. I say that even the roadwalks can be nice. Here's just one example from the NY Long Path - that section was a gravel road and I maybe saw two cars a day when hiking on it. It's a shame that there are no good views from roadwalks! In fact, I was loop hiking and came back over that section on a snowmobile trail. The roadwalk is definitely better. The trail is viewless and muddy.

(Incidentally, the trail also goes over several of the mountains on the far horizon.)

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7737/28554173480_1c02a129f0_c.jpg
(https://flic.kr/p/KveAXS)Looking south at the Catskills (https://flic.kr/p/KveAXS) by Kevin Kenny (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/), on Flickr

[Slo-go'en]

I'm guessing it just might be the "trail magic" issue. Feed bear - get more bear. Feed hikers - get more hikers. Rocket surgery. We could go hiking where there's are free buffets or somewhere else and actually have to buy all our food. I'm guessing that's why the Conservancy now takes a dim view on it at least in part along with the Long Distance Association etc.

No, hiker feeds have nothing to do with it, or at least very little. It's more a response then a cause.

The fact that 100 million people live an with in hour or two drive from the AT is one reason. The AT is logistically easy to hike since it passes near so many towns and in some cases thru towns. In response to an increase in hiker traffic, many hostels and shuttle services have sprung up, which makes the trail even more logistically easy. But probably the biggest factor is social media and Whiteblaze.net.

Over crowding is only an issue at campsites and then only in certain areas at certain times of the year. The rest of the time, they stand empty.

[ki0eh]

The A.T. through the mid-Atlantic was explicitly designed to be relatively near the major Eastern Seaboard cities. But you can drive out to the GET routes as quickly now as one could to the A.T. then.

And, though Duncannon may be a fine little borough, in equivalent position in PA along the GET is State College, a Big Ten university town with considerably more offerings such as an outfitter, Wegmans, Penn State ice cream, several brewpubs, etc.

Some answers were offered in this thread: https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/116585-Why-aren-t-people-interested-in-Great-Eastern-Trail

[rocketsocks]

When the ATC says so

[Malto]

I think there is an easy answer to overcrowding on the AT. Relocate ALL of the shelters to interstate 95 and allow walking on the shoulder. Hiker Feds could be done at rest areas, yellow blazing and resupplies would be a cinch. Perfect solution.

[Another Kevin]

The A.T. through the mid-Atlantic was explicitly designed to be relatively near the major Eastern Seaboard cities. But you can drive out to the GET routes as quickly now as one could to the A.T. then.
The two ends of the Northville-Placid Trail were train stations. (Neither one is still in service.)

[Curious G]

Funny you should mention "other trails"

NC has the MST (Mountains to Sea Trail) that runs from Clingman's Dome to Jockey's Ridge on the Outer Banks. It was proposed about 39 years, 51 weeks, 3 days ago. On September 10 there's a "MST in a Day" event to raise awareness for the trail to help drive completion. (In many areas it just runs along secondary roads.)

Of the 300 segments about 240-250 are covered. My family is signed up for 4 segments (including my wife, who is in kidney failure!) and we may cover a couple more to help knock it all out. I just became aware of the event a couple of weeks ago and I suspect others may not be aware, so if you're in or near NC (specifically the SE corner, around Wilmington-Jacksonville) check out the MST In a Day web page and sign up for a segment or three.

It's 1175 miles end-end, which is a decent trek. When it's completed as a "real" trail I suspect it will draw a fair bit of traffic.

As far as "Why the AT?" For me it's a culmination of 40 years of thinking and anticipation. An older cousin mentioned a section hike to me when I was 10 years old, but it never came to fruition. I've thought about it off and on in the years since and have started on preparations to start tacking some sections and hope that one day I can take the time for a thru hike.

I tried this and a two week hike was cut to two days. It sucked. It's definitely not a "real trail". It's you wandering around parks, greenways, roads, bike paths, and pretty much back yards with people looking at you like you are crazy or they are. There is absolutely no legal camping. No water. No amenities or access to them. And the total lack of local awareness means you are just another homeless trespasser. I'm interested in going back with my motorized bicycle, a small pistol, a little day pack, and hotel money, probably lots of hotel, beer, and pizza money. And other people.

[ki0eh]

The two ends of the Northville-Placid Trail were train stations. (Neither one is still in service.)

Thanks, I never knew the significance of the Northville end.

[Another Kevin]

Thanks, I never knew the significance of the Northville end.

The station isn't there at all any more - it's under the lake. There's a plaque at the bridge the trail crosses going into town.

[KDogg]

I'd say the Whites are already being heavily impacted from overuse. Those sections where the trail is pure granite with no soil. The trail on those areas is getting wider and wider because folks are using the trees at the sides of the trail to get up the mountain because they can't get enough traction hiking up the center of the trail. Whatever soil is on the sides of those trails is eroding off as the plant life is being walked on. Or how about those sections in bog where the bog bridges are rotten and haven't been replaced and everyone is walking where it is 'dry' and screwing up the trail and its accompanying delicate plant life. These areas will require extensive restoration or 'maintenance' to get the trail back to its original state.

[LoneStranger]

I'd say the Whites are already being heavily impacted from overuse. Those sections where the trail is pure granite with no soil. The trail on those areas is getting wider and wider because folks are using the trees at the sides of the trail to get up the mountain because they can't get enough traction hiking up the center of the trail. Whatever soil is on the sides of those trails is eroding off as the plant life is being walked on. Or how about those sections in bog where the bog bridges are rotten and haven't been replaced and everyone is walking where it is 'dry' and screwing up the trail and its accompanying delicate plant life. These areas will require extensive restoration or 'maintenance' to get the trail back to its original state.

Now you are talking about the infrastructure that is important as opposed to more parking lots. Ladders for those rock slabs and keeping the boards above the mud are where the money should be spent (if anyone had money to spend). Anything to get people to stay in the middle of the trail rather than pulling out trees and stomping the dirt off the edges.

[The Old Chief]

I tried this and a two week hike was cut to two days. It sucked. It's definitely not a "real trail". It's you wandering around parks, greenways, roads, bike paths, and pretty much back yards with people looking at you like you are crazy or they are. There is absolutely no legal camping. No water. No amenities or access to them. And the total lack of local awareness means you are just another homeless trespasser. I'm interested in going back with my motorized bicycle, a small pistol, a little day pack, and hotel money, probably lots of hotel, beer, and pizza money. And other people.
I don't know where you were hiking but it definitely wasn't the Mountains to Sea Trail in North Carolina. And it's obvious you've never visited the MST website which abundantly describes everything you couldn't find on your extensive 2 day hike. I would ask that you re-visit the trail in our State, but on second thought, please stay wherever you are with your moped, little day pack, hotel money, and beer and pizza money.

[Curious G]

I don't know where you were hiking but it definitely wasn't the Mountains to Sea Trail in North Carolina. And it's obvious you've never visited the MST website which abundantly describes everything you couldn't find on your extensive 2 day hike. I would ask that you re-visit the trail in our State, but on second thought, please stay wherever you are with your moped, little day pack, hotel money, and beer and pizza money.

Really Old Chief? When have you hiked the Raleigh section of the Neuse River Trail? Do you deny that it is a bunch of greenways and parks strung together for like 100 miles in both directions where camping is illegal and the homeless wander around at night like in a zombie movie? That's NC and I was there this spring on the MST and it was crap like total crap. And that website is what lured me in by painting a rosy picture of what should be called the Wishful Thinking Trail. It makes the FT look really put together. Thank God we brought the car! We went looking for MST sections that don't suck and found the pictures on the website are the only places that are cool and drove to them on our way to the GSMNP which saved our vacation. Along with our vacation money and us from being either mugged, arrested for trespass, or shot for same. It's an open carry state but you knew that which is why you omitted it from your snarky little comments. I'm curious why there are so many cheerleaders doing the rah rah for this nonexistent trail. I'd like to hear all of your many stories from having hiked the entire MST or have you? It's not "our state" it's my country, and I'll go where I darn well please with whatever I wish just as though I were still in America. And like I said, it's a bicycle with a motor not a moped which makes sense since just a little peek at the MST online will show you that you can pretty much ride a bike from Winston Salem to the ocean because it's not a hiking trail it's a dag gum bike path dude. Keep it real.

[Curious G]

Like Columbo said: One more thing! This subject really chaps my burro because I saved for a year to take a hike on the MST as an alternate to the crowded AT and ended up wasting time and money only to end up on the crowded AT anyhow. I'd like to hear from the big time MST fans with answers to questions everyone should know. Like what percentage of the MST is paved? What percentage is a paved road with traffic that exposes you to the general public? What percentage actually closes at sundown? Where is the camping, or how long are stretches where there is none allowed by law and how many of these stretches are there? Yeah, that's right: imagine a trail that's mostly paved, with no camping, that's often private land, or public park that's closed at night. Where you could be hit by a car. Forget about the water issue for a second. Forget about the resupply thing. Think about no camping and closed in the dark. That means you could still be "hiking" (up the paved bike path) and still be arrested for trespassing with no place to go on either side to camp for miles. Zero campsites. Like miles of endless greenway where the water is uh let's keep it polite and say not potable. Even the name is silly when you think about and as misleading as the website as the mountains and sea are definitely not connected by a trail. Anybody who says 'yet' has just left a safety meeting, or thinks that if you close your eyes and repeat "I do believe in fairies" that it will come true. And I love NC too BTW.

[The Old Chief]

Really Old Chief? When have you hiked the Raleigh section of the Neuse River Trail? Do you deny that it is a bunch of greenways and parks strung together for like 100 miles in both directions where camping is illegal and the homeless wander around at night like in a zombie movie? That's NC and I was there this spring on the MST and it was crap like total crap. And that website is what lured me in by painting a rosy picture of what should be called the Wishful Thinking Trail. It makes the FT look really put together. Thank God we brought the car! We went looking for MST sections that don't suck and found the pictures on the website are the only places that are cool and drove to them on our way to the GSMNP which saved our vacation. Along with our vacation money and us from being either mugged, arrested for trespass, or shot for same. It's an open carry state but you knew that which is why you omitted it from your snarky little comments. I'm curious why there are so many cheerleaders doing the rah rah for this nonexistent trail. I'd like to hear all of your many stories from having hiked the entire MST or have you? It's not "our state" it's my country, and I'll go where I darn well please with whatever I wish just as though I were still in America. And like I said, it's a bicycle with a motor not a moped which makes sense since just a little peek at the MST online will show you that you can pretty much ride a bike from Winston Salem to the ocean because it's not a hiking trail it's a dag gum bike path dude. Keep it real.
I will dispense with any "snarky comments" and gladly acknowledge that you are the king of snarky comments. Yes, I have hiked the MST which is so named because it starts at Clingmans Dome and ends at Jockeys Ridge State Park on the Outer Banks at the Atlantic Ocean. You can verify my journey by going to Trailjournals.com and search for my journals there. With over 600 miles of trail off of paved highways we're making good progress. Just because we use paved roads in sections to make the trek across the State doesn't mean it's not a "trail." In earlier times the AT used many miles of paved roads and dirt roads as it made its way from Georgia to Maine. It was still a trail then just as it is still a trail now.
Just as with the AT you need to do your planning if you're going to tackle the MST. With a car and a moped you would never have trouble accessing water, food, or shelter. If you're looking for a wilderness experience comparable to some trails in your State you'll be disappointed on the MST, although the Mt Mitchell and Linville Gorge, Harpers Creek sections offer plenty of wilderness hiking. We're close to having 100 miles of off road trail through the most urban populated section of the State utilizing greenways, parks, and Federal lands. And there are 2 designated campsites so far in this 100 miles. Sorry, you didn't find them. We do recognize that paved roads are hard for some hikers so we allow biking (non-motorized) on paved sections of the trail to count towards completions of a thru-hike or section hike.

[Curious G]

So you're the guy. C'mon Chief, now you're name-calling. And you dodged some critical questions there too. But first, who is "we"? Are oui French? "With over 600 miles of trail off of paved highways we're making good progress." Is a slippery way of saying the MST is almost half an actual trail, and the other half highways where a trail should be. (The MST being 1175 miles long. Allegedly.) Further complicating matters the half a trail you do have isn't one complete piece. So really it's irritating and confusing halves of trail and highways alternately all over the place. And again, just because you technically can call it a trail doesn't suddenly make walking down a highway safe or pleasant. And you fail to acknowledge the other truths I mentioned regarding the half a trail that you do have, like those sections are also paved bike paths and/or public parks sandwiched between private property that are closed from dawn to dusk with no place to camp and/or no place to camp legally with little or no water and no way to even get to anything. Furthermore, the crappy misleading website shows nothing off of the so-called trail. So you have to phone GPS everything and tough it out like where is the nearest store etc. In reality you'd be better off just biking down country roads or hitching to avoid the confusion altogether.

[Theosus]

Alot of us do. I only use the AT in 'off-season'
Something about crowds, trash, and little wads of toilet paper turns my attention elsewhere.
I'm the same way. Hike in the north before the bubble, and in the south afterwards. And any time in winter...
I've done a three day hike in TN in the winter and been completely alone except for our group of 6. We saw NO other hikers in 35 miles. We did SOBO into Damascus in February, saw two hikers in two days over 20 miles. Three weeks ago, 3 of us did a hike from Sam Gap to Erwin, TN. Two days of walking 24 miles, and we saw two other backpackers, and 2 day hikers with a dog. NOT crowded.
And - I've been caught in the bubble - after last year's fires I made the mistake of going into Erwin with a bunch of thrus that were delayed by fires. The trail's shelter and camping areas were packed, but there was still plenty of room to walk on the trail, it wasn't like a Disney World queue line.
The AT only seems to get crowded in certain places at certain times. Avoid those places and times and everything will be good. I think as the population of thru-hikers grows, more people will need to flip-flop in order to make sure shelters and privies aren't way overcrowded. I can't imagine trying to thru-hike with a big crowd in March. If it were me, I'd start at the ATC, walk to Maine, then flip to Springer and walk to the ATC to finish up.

[RangerZ]

+ many for Penn State ice cream, we've often detoured to the Creamery.



The A.T. through the mid-Atlantic was explicitly designed to be relatively near the major Eastern Seaboard cities. But you can drive out to the GET routes as quickly now as one could to the A.T. then.

And, though Duncannon may be a fine little borough, in equivalent position in PA along the GET is State College, a Big Ten university town with considerably more offerings such as an outfitter, Wegmans, Penn State ice cream, several brewpubs, etc.



Some answers were offered in this thread: https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/116585-Why-aren-t-people-interested-in-Great-Eastern-Trail

[The Old Chief]

I'm the same way. Hike in the north before the bubble, and in the south afterwards. And any time in winter...
I've done a three day hike in TN in the winter and been completely alone except for our group of 6. We saw NO other hikers in 35 miles. We did SOBO into Damascus in February, saw two hikers in two days over 20 miles. Three weeks ago, 3 of us did a hike from Sam Gap to Erwin, TN. Two days of walking 24 miles, and we saw two other backpackers, and 2 day hikers with a dog. NOT crowded.
And - I've been caught in the bubble - after last year's fires I made the mistake of going into Erwin with a bunch of thrus that were delayed by fires. The trail's shelter and camping areas were packed, but there was still plenty of room to walk on the trail, it wasn't like a Disney World queue line.
The AT only seems to get crowded in certain places at certain times. Avoid those places and times and everything will be good. I think as the population of thru-hikers grows, more people will need to flip-flop in order to make sure shelters and privies aren't way overcrowded. I can't imagine trying to thru-hike with a big crowd in March. If it were me, I'd start at the ATC, walk to Maine, then flip to Springer and walk to the ATC to finish up.
You're right about hiking "off season". In Southern and Central Virginia during March and April you might see two other hikers a day other than the ones you may be hiking with. If you want to use the shelters they are empty during this time. I've also hiked South on the AT in Georgia during the bubble in March and encountered very few hikers except at shelters. I put up my tent at the Cheese Factory site about 4 in the afternoon and didn't see another human until about 10 the next morning. That evening at Low Gap Shelter there must have been 40 people. I think that as peoples' desires and interests change the AT could become less crowded. I can remember back in the 70s the Blue Ridge Parkway was always crowded with vehicles on weekends. Now, not so much. Things change.

[The Old Chief]

So you're the guy. C'mon Chief, now you're name-calling. And you dodged some critical questions there too. But first, who is "we"? Are oui French? "With over 600 miles of trail off of paved highways we're making good progress." Is a slippery way of saying the MST is almost half an actual trail, and the other half highways where a trail should be. (The MST being 1175 miles long. Allegedly.) Further complicating matters the half a trail you do have isn't one complete piece. So really it's irritating and confusing halves of trail and highways alternately all over the place. And again, just because you technically can call it a trail doesn't suddenly make walking down a highway safe or pleasant. And you fail to acknowledge the other truths I mentioned regarding the half a trail that you do have, like those sections are also paved bike paths and/or public parks sandwiched between private property that are closed from dawn to dusk with no place to camp and/or no place to camp legally with little or no water and no way to even get to anything. Furthermore, the crappy misleading website shows nothing off of the so-called trail. So you have to phone GPS everything and tough it out like where is the nearest store etc. In reality you'd be better off just biking down country roads or hitching to avoid the confusion altogether.
Let’s see now, according to you, you planned for a year totravel 2000 miles by car to do a section hike of the MST on a two weekvacation. On your way to Raleigh, where you attempted to hike, you passed by sectionsof the MST in GSNP (thoroughly described in the MST guidebook). Then you passed by other sections of the MSTincluding hikes over Mt. Mitchell and 66 miles of wilderness hiking through theLinville Gorge and Harpers Creek wilderness areas ( thoroughly described in theMST guidebook). When you arrived at yourplanned destination you were upset that in one of the most urban sections ofthe State on the MST you found greenways, not wilderness. And at the same time there was nowhere toobtain food or potable water or lodging. Segment 11B, the segment you hiked for 2 days is 66 miles long. The MST guidebook clearly defines sevendifferent lodging choices within one mile of this segment. The guidebook lists seven different sourcesof free potable water, none any further than .1 mile off trail for thissegment. The guidebook lists 11 sourcesfor food, only one as far as one mile off trail. In this segment you would also walk down themain street of Clayton, NC past several restaurants. I don’t blame you for being upset, not at theMST, roadwalks, homeless people, muggings, me, or getting shot for trespassing,but at yourself for poor planning.

[Curious G]

Let’s see now, according to you, you planned for a year totravel 2000 miles by car to do a section hike of the MST on a two weekvacation. On your way to Raleigh, where you attempted to hike, you passed by sectionsof the MST in GSNP (thoroughly described in the MST guidebook). Then you passed by other sections of the MSTincluding hikes over Mt. Mitchell and 66 miles of wilderness hiking through theLinville Gorge and Harpers Creek wilderness areas ( thoroughly described in theMST guidebook). When you arrived at yourplanned destination you were upset that in one of the most urban sections ofthe State on the MST you found greenways, not wilderness. And at the same time there was nowhere toobtain food or potable water or lodging. Segment 11B, the segment you hiked for 2 days is 66 miles long. The MST guidebook clearly defines sevendifferent lodging choices within one mile of this segment. The guidebook lists seven different sourcesof free potable water, none any further than .1 mile off trail for thissegment. The guidebook lists 11 sourcesfor food, only one as far as one mile off trail. In this segment you would also walk down themain street of Clayton, NC past several restaurants. I don’t blame you for being upset, not at theMST, roadwalks, homeless people, muggings, me, or getting shot for trespassing,but at yourself for poor planning.


No. It was Colonel Mustard in the library with a candlestick. The MST stinks. That's an open and shut case. You are correct however insofar as planning. Given the strange tendency for "hikers" to talk about it in glowing terms coupled with the rosy picture put fourth on the website and a lack of other sources I was completely unprepared to find myself urban orienteering and accidentally committing acts of vagrancy while trying to take a leisurely vacation. And when I say I saved up and planned for a year I didn't go into my war room and construct a battle plan. I did what most folks do. Took some savings and what info I could find along with a loaf of bread and some tea in a sack and hopped over the back fence headed for where there is supposed to be a trail. Just one little problem. There isn't one. You've convinced yourself it's there self justification theory being what it is, now stop trying to convince the rest of us. Hike the A.T. off season and wait for the 1/2 finished MST to be 100% complete and user friendly before you get incredibly disappointed. Yes, in yourself - like I was. I came away feeling like a sucker but I did what hikers do. Backed up, regrouped, adapted, overcame, found the path, and had a blast. Plus I learned an important lesson: the MST is literally a broken trail. Don't worry though, in about 100 years my great great grand kids will love it. On bikes with motors, pistols, small day packs, and an American Express Gold Card. File under: don't believe the hype.

[MuddyWaters]

No. It was Colonel Mustard in the library with a candlestick. The MST stinks. That's an open and shut case. You are correct however insofar as planning. Given the strange tendency for "hikers" to talk about it in glowing terms coupled with the rosy picture put fourth on the website and a lack of other sources I was completely unprepared to find myself urban orienteering and accidentally committing acts of vagrancy while trying to take a leisurely vacation. And when I say I saved up and planned for a year I didn't go into my war room and construct a battle plan. I did what most folks do. Took some savings and what info I could find along with a loaf of bread and some tea in a sack and hopped over the back fence headed for where there is supposed to be a trail. Just one little problem. There isn't one. You've convinced yourself it's there self justification theory being what it is, now stop trying to convince the rest of us. Hike the A.T. off season and wait for the 1/2 finished MST to be 100% complete and user friendly before you get incredibly disappointed. Yes, in yourself - like I was. I came away feeling like a sucker but I did what hikers do. Backed up, regrouped, adapted, overcame, found the path, and had a blast. Plus I learned an important lesson: the MST is literally a broken trail. Don't worry though, in about 100 years my great great grand kids will love it. On bikes with motors, pistols, small day packs, and an American Express Gold Card. File under: don't believe the hype.


Even Wikipedia states its about half complete in disconnected segements in the first paragraph.

AT is no stranger to peoples backyards and going down main street of towns either in limited areas still.

[Curious G]

Even Wikipedia states its about half complete in disconnected segements in the first paragraph.

AT is no stranger to peoples backyards and going down main street of towns either in limited areas still.

All apples are fruit, but not all fruits are apples. Some are oranges. In one regard the same they are still hard to compare given that they are otherwise totally different even in name. Trying to point to similarities is a stretch but amusing to watch you try. Hey both are juicy! There's one.

[Cosmo]

One of the VUM (Visitor Use Management) strategies that can be considered is moving use to other times and locations (See the IVUM Framework link in an earlier post). Already in southern NE we are seeing flip flop hikers arriving in June (well before the bubble of NB hikers). This hasn't really lead to a noticeable downward (or even leveling off) of the numbers of "normal" NB'ers arriving a month or so later. The pressure is just so great that a few small measures are not having a significant effect, although there is a slight "flattening" of the numbers of hikers starting in Georgia--that is more hikers are avoiding the busiest dates because of ATC's voluntary registration system. It will be interesting to see if the statistics at Katahdin show a similar wider date range of AT hikers due to some choosing alternative timing for their hikes--i.e, more hikers in June & July.

The overall issue is extremely complex, changes to one area will affect another. Tredway issues and overnight site issues may have two different (but likely interrelated) responses. Hot spots such as Franconia Ridge and the Triple Crown area are even more complex as there is high use by day hikers and "weekenders" (short term overnight backpackers), not to mention multi-day overnight trips sponsored by various groups (we are a the tail end of the college orientation season here). Not all use issues at every location are related to thru hikers.

It's important to embrace the complexity of the issue and avoid (however tempting) jumping to a "solution" that we feel might solve a particular issue at a particular location at a particular time--it has the potential of making it worse someplace else. Think of the AT as a slinky--changes in one location are transmitted to another, sometimes in unexpected ways.

Cosmo



You're right about hiking "off season". In Southern and Central Virginia during March and April you might see two other hikers a day other than the ones you may be hiking with. If you want to use the shelters they are empty during this time. I've also hiked South on the AT in Georgia during the bubble in March and encountered very few hikers except at shelters. I put up my tent at the Cheese Factory site about 4 in the afternoon and didn't see another human until about 10 the next morning. That evening at Low Gap Shelter there must have been 40 people. I think that as peoples' desires and interests change the AT could become less crowded. I can remember back in the 70s the Blue Ridge Parkway was always crowded with vehicles on weekends. Now, not so much. Things change.

[The Old Chief]

All apples are fruit, but not all fruits are apples. Some are oranges. In one regard the same they are still hard to compare given that they are otherwise totally different even in name. Trying to point to similarities is a stretch but amusing to watch you try. Hey both are juicy! There's one.

Not really. The Mayapple is not a fruit. It's got to be true because that's what Wikipedia says. Similarities? They both share the same footpath for 4 miles. They both offer extensive hiking in GSNP. They both pass through State Parks. They both end or start at a State Park. They both have designated trail on asphalt. They both pass through the main street of a town (the AT at least 4). Several dozen hikers have walked both trails. And you really can't take a loaf of bread and some tea in a sack and jump over the back fence and hike either trail as a long distance hiker.

[rickb]

The pressure is just so great that a few small measures are not having a significant effect...

One issue with overcrowding (however that is defined) is the aesthetic/experiential one.

While the ATC and member clubs are rightfully concerned about addressing that, I think individuals have a role/responsibility to play as well.

In that senses, those individuals who choose non-traditional times and places have a VERY significant effect on the nature of their own hikes.

In a sense, the ATC and clubs are giving (or at least revealing) a different Trail just by letting people know about the issue.

It sure is complicated, though. On the philosophical side alone, who is to say what is better -- 1,000 people enjoying an A+ experience or 10,000 enjoying a respectable B?

Not me, that is for sure (though I have some opinions from the sidelines). So good that the AT has so many people like you working to keep the Trail great.

[Curious G]

Not really. The Mayapple is not a fruit. It's got to be true because that's what Wikipedia says. Similarities? They both share the same footpath for 4 miles. They both offer extensive hiking in GSNP. They both pass through State Parks. They both end or start at a State Park. They both have designated trail on asphalt. They both pass through the main street of a town (the AT at least 4). Several dozen hikers have walked both trails. And you really can't take a loaf of bread and some tea in a sack and jump over the back fence and hike either trail as a long distance hiker.

Shaking my head. You forgot the most significant differences: one totally sucks (the MST) and one totally rocks (the A.T.), one is 50% finished (or if you prefer the pessimistic view is half incomplete) and the other is a continuous footpath from GA to ME where your chances of being crushed by a semi on a highway or arrested just for being there in the dark are negligible as opposed to entirely possible. Several dozen people have done it? Well, that's the same argument for huffing bathsalts isn't it? Come on guys - like two dozen people on Earth have tried this so you know it's good! As long as you're looking up apples on Wikipedia you might as well Google some John Muir quotes while you're at it. (I'll give you a hint here: it has something to do with a loaf of bread and some tea a sack and the back fence and is also probably the most famous and oft quoted hiker line of all time and yes he used to do it and yes we still do though we prefer ramen, oatmeal, a hunk of cheese, snickers, and Propel.) How do you like them apples?

[The Old Chief]

Shaking my head. You forgot the most significant differences: one totally sucks (the MST) and one totally rocks (the A.T.), one is 50% finished (or if you prefer the pessimistic view is half incomplete) and the other is a continuous footpath from GA to ME where your chances of being crushed by a semi on a highway or arrested just for being there in the dark are negligible as opposed to entirely possible. Several dozen people have done it? Well, that's the same argument for huffing bathsalts isn't it? Come on guys - like two dozen people on Earth have tried this so you know it's good! As long as you're looking up apples on Wikipedia you might as well Google some John Muir quotes while you're at it. (I'll give you a hint here: it has something to do with a loaf of bread and some tea a sack and the back fence and is also probably the most famous and oft quoted hiker line of all time and yes he used to do it and yes we still do though we prefer ramen, oatmeal, a hunk of cheese, snickers, and Propel.) How do you like them apples?

I'm sorry I don't know my John Muir quotes as well as you. And I've got to admit when I've been around hikers over the last 16 years we didn't sit around quoting John Muir quotes. Maybe we were too tired from hiking the AT or the MST or the FT. You should try it sometime. That's it for me, I'm outta here.
By the way its: "only a tin cup, a handful of tea, a loaf of bread, and a copy of Emerson".

[Curious G]

I'm sorry I don't know my John Muir quotes as well as you. And I've got to admit when I've been around hikers over the last 16 years we didn't sit around quoting John Muir quotes. Maybe we were too tired from hiking the AT or the MST or the FT. You should try it sometime. That's it for me, I'm outta here.
By the way its: "only a tin cup, a handful of tea, a loaf of bread, and a copy of Emerson".

Cool. You Googled it. Made you look! Been around hikers 16 years and never heard that old saw before hey? BS flag! I've been around hikers for 38 years and we didn't sit around telling our friends to go to places that are total poop to hike. You know what I think? 3 trails in 16 years? You don't get around much and don't know what you're talking about. Because that's three years worth of hiking for starters. And because the FT is the second runner up of all time crappy trails right behind the MST and it too has a following of hangers on who are always talking it up like it's awesome too. They always say things like: "WE" "have ALMOST (or nearly) all of the trail complete with lots of blah blah blah and MUCH of the trail FOLLOWS highway (code for it is highway usually near a mall or a bad neighborhood where you wouldn't be caught dead at night unless you were found dead there at night) or secondary roads. Like secondary roads are quaint. Let me tell you what they are. They are shadeless, waterless, tracts through nowhere where motorists fly, and the stupid orange blazes have been painted over in brown by the telephone company because they - like everyone else in FLA - have never heard of the FT before. Much as in the way nobody around the MST has ever heard of it, doesn't know where it is, (even though it passes behind their house) and looks at you with total suspicion as you stand there lost, hot, pissed off, and out of water yet again.