View Full Version : Bear Canisters on the AT
Gootstizz
08-26-2017, 09:55
Looking to change over from a bear bag to a bear vault BV500 canister. Curious to know if these things are ant proof and the experiences people are having with them, besides the extra weight issue. I know these are not widely used on the AT, but any of you who have, please let me know your thoughts...
saltysack
08-26-2017, 10:19
I personally wouldn't way too big and cumbersome...used a Bearikade weekender for JMT...I'd never carry again unless required...
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I have a BV500 and I like it. I've used it on the AT and on other trails.
Yes it's heavier and cumbersome, however... Once you factor in the weight of your food bag, the rope, and the carabiner required to properly hang your food & other smelly stuff, the weight penalty is not that bad.
I got mine because I didn't want to have to bother with having to find a suitable tree and throwing a rope every evening. Mainly because I'm not very good at it (yes, I know, practice makes perfect), and also because I know myself, I keep going back to it because I forgot this or that. So, FOR ME, walking a little ways back and forth to my canister is a lot less of an annoyance than having to bring down and re-hang my food ten times a night. I also like the fact that my food doesn't get all squished by other contents of my pack when it's in the canister. And I've never had an issue with ants or anything else.
You probably already know this but just in case you don't, other things like your kitchen kit, toothpaste, soaps, etc. and your garbage also need to be protected, basically, everything that has a smell to it needs to either be hung or put in a bear canister... and then there are those who use their food bags as pillows. So there are as many opinions on the subject as there are hikers. You decide what works best for you, hike your own hike, and have fun!
Tipi Walter
08-26-2017, 12:33
I have the bearvault 500 and if I had to do it over I'd get the more expensive but more customizable Bearikade because the BV can be a "bear" to twist open on occasion, esp in cold weather. But the BV does work---(see pic after bear attack)---
http://www.wild-ideas.net/
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/16-Days-with-a-Miracle-Dog/i-TmKPR4J/0/47295284/L/BEAR%20DAMAGE%20006-L.jpg
But Saltysack is right---a bear canister is dead weight on the AT.
I have the bearvault 500 and if I had to do it over I'd get the more expensive but more customizable Bearikade because the BV can be a "bear" to twist open on occasion, esp in cold weather. But the BV does work
Yes, the BV can be a pain to open sometimes. I had never heard of the Bearikade before. What do you mean by more customizable? I checked and they look too rigid to be customizable. Also, do you need a screwdriver to open them? I like that they're a solid color instead off clear.
saltysack
08-26-2017, 15:44
Yes, the BV can be a pain to open sometimes. I had never heard of the Bearikade before. What do you mean by more customizable? I checked and they look too rigid to be customizable. Also, do you need a screwdriver to open them? I like that they're a solid color instead off clear.
They're carbon and $$$$....can use a dime or any lil flat edge to open. They work as intended also much lighter option than a BV....both A LOT heavier than a simple cuben food bag and don't pack easily in smaller Ul packs...I do usually sleep with my food though normally have a dog along which deters critters. My bear line and carabiner also act as my dog leash so no weight penalty for me....never had an issue sitting on a log or the dogs mat a cut down zlite...what ever floats your boat.....
Gootstizz
08-26-2017, 16:33
Suzzz...where do you normally place it? Up against a tree away from your tent or do you try and hide it?
Time Zone
08-26-2017, 17:32
I had never heard of the Bearikade before. What do you mean by more customizable?
probably this:
http://www.wild-ideas.net/custom-bearikades/
you can customize height of 12" cylinder from 8" to 18" in 1/8" increments. This, in turn, determines weight and volume of the resulting bear can.
Time Zone
08-26-2017, 17:34
Correction, I think the cylinder is 9" in diameter, not 12"
I've been on the fence on this oe too... I know the long distance folks don't use them on the AT...and I know it's not necessary....
Every time I decide against, I come back around...not for bears really, but more to deter problems with small rodents and other critters such as coons and possums. In many ways it just seems easier....and as Suzzz points out the weight trade off may not net to be all that bad....
And yeah, I hadn't really considered ants. Great question.... putting empty wrappers with food residue in them I'd imagine could be a real problem if an any colony finds it.
Suzzz...where do you normally place it? Up against a tree away from your tent or do you try and hide it?
I don't go out of my way to hide it but I also try not to make it so obvious. I mostly try to find a good spot at a safe distance from camp/shelter.
Gootstizz
08-27-2017, 09:31
Thank you for all the great feedback on this...I go back and forth as well. I'm all about going with the safest most protective way. The canisters do save time and seem to work really well...Appreciate the picture Tipi Walter! The Bearikade's are pricey but look solid, and look to be a little lighter then the Vault. I keep going back to this quote I found on REI's website....."You can't count on food being safe if you put it in a nylon sack and hang it in a tree overnight. If you've never lost food by counterbalancing [suspending 2 bags of food high on a tree branch], it's only because you're lucky, no matter how well you do it."
saltysack
08-27-2017, 10:24
There's a reason why hardly any experienced hikers carry a can if not required!
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You can put me in that hardly any category, and I think I qualify as experienced, with 2+ LT E2E's and the Adirondack 46. I started using a BV because I spent so much time in the Adirondacks where they're required. My base weight is still under 15 pounds, including the BV. Lots of pros - bug proof, rodent proof, dry, crush proof (you can have a whole poptart!), yada, yada, yada. The cons are obvious - heavy and bulky. But I've just come to have it as part of my kit 90% of the time and have found it worth it. I also figure that someday they'll be required just about every where and I'll be way ahead of y'all. The weight penalty is about one day's worth of food, or one liter of water - not that big a deal. I've been carrying one for years, or using them to cache food, and have always found it right where I left it.
saltysack
08-27-2017, 12:42
You can put me in that hardly any category, and I think I qualify as experienced, with 2+ LT E2E's and the Adirondack 46. I started using a BV because I spent so much time in the Adirondacks where they're required. My base weight is still under 15 pounds, including the BV. Lots of pros - bug proof, rodent proof, dry, crush proof (you can have a whole poptart!), yada, yada, yada. The cons are obvious - heavy and bulky. But I've just come to have it as part of my kit 90% of the time and have found it worth it. I also figure that someday they'll be required just about every where and I'll be way ahead of y'all. The weight penalty is about one day's worth of food, or one liter of water - not that big a deal. I've been carrying one for years, or using them to cache food, and have always found it right where I left it.
Good point with food cache...HYOH...every ones different....with my less is better approach and smaller and lighter gear it's just not comfortable to carry when not required. Not so much the weight but the rigidity and bulkiness...also tough on your gear as can easily rub a hole if not careful. Mine nearly wore through the carbon stays on my circuit while on JMT...assume the plastic of the BV is less abrasive than sharp edged Bearikade.
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Tipi Walter
08-27-2017, 13:42
You can put me in that hardly any category, and I think I qualify as experienced, with 2+ LT E2E's and the Adirondack 46. I started using a BV because I spent so much time in the Adirondacks where they're required. My base weight is still under 15 pounds, including the BV. Lots of pros - bug proof, rodent proof, dry, crush proof (you can have a whole poptart!), yada, yada, yada. The cons are obvious - heavy and bulky. But I've just come to have it as part of my kit 90% of the time and have found it worth it. I also figure that someday they'll be required just about every where and I'll be way ahead of y'all. The weight penalty is about one day's worth of food, or one liter of water - not that big a deal. I've been carrying one for years, or using them to cache food, and have always found it right where I left it.
Required everywhere? Let's hope this is never enforced by the Tent Police. Imagine how many BVs I'd need for a 21 day food load on my back.
Tipi, I get the feeling you're usually far away from anyone that would care!
I'll refine my prognostication - I'll bet someday they will be required on most long-distance trails. Off-trail is a much different proposition. Salty's right about the packing - it does require some thought to pack it without poking you or wearing on gear, and works better with some packs than others. Less of an issue with the smaller BV.
I just got mine in for the JMT, and there is no way I'd choose to lug this thing around if I wasn't forced to. Noted weight penalty aside, the thing is huge and makes packing challenging. I'm a huge fan of properly hanging a bear bag. I use the PCT method.
aruthenb
08-31-2017, 07:46
I used one on a week section hike in July, it fit well in my bag and honestly I enjoyed not having to deal with a bear bag in the evenings and morning. I just closed up my food and toothpaste each evening and put in near a tree away from camp. It is also a great chair at camp.
The most obvious is that due to careless hikers we have to deal with bears coming in camp. They have gotten smarter on the ATC just as on the PCT and can get down a standard bear bag hang. The majority of the shelters in Georgia now have large steel tool boxes to get rid of bear cables.
40188
A good link on benefits.
https://thetrek.co/bear-canisters-on-the-appalachian-trail-what-you-need-to-know/
ATC strongly recommends a bear canister for storing food on your A.T. hike (and so does the Nantahala National Forest)
(1/12/2017-present) The ATC and Nantahala Ranger District strongly recommend carrying a bear canister—constructed with solid, non-pliable material and designed to resist bears—to store your food and smellables on the A.T. Bear canisters provide an effective alternative to hanging food bags.
An excellent resource for black bear related information can be found at http://www.sierrawild.gov/. Examples of recommended bear canisters can be found here (https://www.nps.gov/seki/planyourvisit/upload/2016-Allowed-Food-Storage-Containers-draft.pdf)
Recent bear activity in:
Nantahala Ranger District (8/24/17), See NC section, below, for details.
New York (5/23/17), (8/16/17) See NY section, below, for details.
Shenandoah National Park (5/24/17)
Massachusetts (6/29/17) See MA section, below, for details.
Vermont (6/29/17) See VT section, below, for details.
Southwest Virginia (7/12/17) See Southwest Virginia section, below, for details.
Great Smoky Mountains National Park (GSMNP) (8/9/17) See GSMNP section, below, for details.
Georgia (8/16/17) See GA section, below, for details.
Sarcasm the elf
08-31-2017, 08:36
After years if hanging or sleeping with my food, I decided to give a BV500 a try, and I so far I like it. It works well with my gear setup and fits vertically in my pack right next to my sleeping bag. It's dead simple to just take it out of my bag any time I stop to take a break and I no longer have to worry about squirrels or other scuttle-beasts if I walk away from my food for a moment. It's less work than hanging my food and much less work than keeping it attended all the time. It does add about a pound and a half to my setup (the weight was slightly offset by no longer carrying a food bag, line, etc) but on my last 4 day trip my pack was still under 24lbs including food and water, so I'm fine with that. Do I think a canister is really needed on the A.T.? No. However I'm finding it to be a method that is convenient based in how I hike.
Other comments:
At night I would just place it upright in a low lying area a short distance from the my tent.
It's important to note that the BV canisters' lid does not have an o-ring, so it needs to be placed upright in order to be rain proof.
As to your other question, I very rarely encounter ant problems in the A.T., so I can't speak to that.
HooKooDooKu
08-31-2017, 10:21
The Bearikade Expedition worked really well for my JMT thru.
I stored my sleeping bag and cloths in the bottom of an Osprey Volt with the Bearikade sitting upright on top of that. Sleeping pad, stove, and other small gear fit around the bearikade with tent lashed to the bottom.
The zipper pocket under the hood of the pack was the perfect place to store a coin to open the canister. It allowed me to stop during the day for lunch and access my food without removing the bearikade from the pack.
Because of its ease of use, I could easily understand someone wanting to use a Bearikade on the AT or other places to make is really simple to not only keep your food safe from bears without worrying about hanging your food but just keeping it safe from critters. Perhaps the only reason I didn't hang on to the Bearikade I bought for the trip was because most my camping is in GSMNP where every campsite has bear cables and I don't have to worry about figuring out how to hang food to keep it safe.
Another Kevin
08-31-2017, 11:34
You can put me in that hardly any category, and I think I qualify as experienced, with 2+ LT E2E's and the Adirondack 46. I started using a BV because I spent so much time in the Adirondacks where they're required..
DEC still is recommending AGAINST the BV in the Eastern High Peaks. Sure, Yellow-Yellow (the bear that learnt how to open a BearVault) was made into stew a few years back, but apparently she taught her cubs the trick. I think that any hard-sided container (that is, not an Ursack) manufactured for the purpose (that is, not a paint bucket or ammo can) is lawful, because they can't regulate against a manufacturer by name, but it's probably not the best choice.
I think there may be a Bearikade in my future. I've rented a Garcia keg and don't care for them.
MuddyWaters
08-31-2017, 11:36
After years if hanging or sleeping with my food, I decided to give a BV500 a try, and I so far I like it. It works well with my gear setup and fits vertically in my pack right next to my sleeping bag. It's dead simple to just take it out of my bag any time I stop to take a break and I no longer have to worry about squirrels or other scuttle-beasts if I walk away from my food for a moment. It's less work than hanging my food and much less work than keeping it attended all the time. It does add about a pound and a half to my setup (the weight was slightly offset by no longer carrying a food bag, line, etc) but on my last 4 day trip my pack was still under 24lbs including food and water, so I'm fine with that. Do I think a canister is really needed on the A.T.? No. However I'm finding it to be a method that is convenient based in how I hike.
Other comments:
At night I would just place it upright in a low lying area a short distance from the my tent.
It's important to note that the BV canisters' lid does not have an o-ring, so it needs to be placed upright in order to be rain proof.
As to your other question, I very rarely encounter ant problems in the A.T., so I can't speak to that.
The day will come where they will be required in problem areas. Already are in some off-AT eastern areas. Too many people.
I agree, 2 lb doesnt make a difference by itself. On jmt I had 9.5 lb base even with 2 lb cannister. Could have been 1/2 lb less too. I wouldnt shed any tears if required everywhere. people would just leave some of their useless crap behind. Gear today is lighter than 30 yrs ago...shouldnt be a problem.
HooKooDooKu
08-31-2017, 11:54
... they can't regulate against a manufacturer by name...
??????????????
That statement doesn't make any sense... because places like YNP are effectively doing exactly that by providing a list of approved canisters by manufacturer and model number that you are allowed to use.
tunnelbear
08-31-2017, 12:43
Is there any reason to still hang the bear canister?
Another Kevin
08-31-2017, 12:58
??????????????
That statement doesn't make any sense... because places like YNP are effectively doing exactly that by providing a list of approved canisters by manufacturer and model number that you are allowed to use.
The list is informative - any canister that passes the IABC tests is on it. They simply prescribe a test that a canister has to pass.
BV500 passes the tests, it just doesn't stand up to actual Adirondack bears.
Sarcasm the elf
08-31-2017, 13:01
Is there any reason to still hang the bear canister?
You do not want to hang a bear canister, or tie anything to it. Canisters are designed in a way that prevents bears from getting enough of grip on them to cause damage. If a rope or anything else is attached tightly, it can give a bear enough additional grip and leverage to break through the canister.
MuddyWaters
08-31-2017, 13:27
You do not want to hang a bear canister, or tie anything to it. Canisters are designed in a way that prevents bears from getting enough of grip on them to cause damage. If a rope or anything else is attached tightly, it can give a bear enough additional grip and leverage to break through the canister.
Or to carry it away.
They arent fortresses
They work long enough for you to drive bear away
Gootstizz
08-31-2017, 13:32
After years if hanging or sleeping with my food, I decided to give a BV500 a try, and I so far I like it. It works well with my gear setup and fits vertically in my pack right next to my sleeping bag. It's dead simple to just take it out of my bag any time I stop to take a break and I no longer have to worry about squirrels or other scuttle-beasts if I walk away from my food for a moment. It's less work than hanging my food and much less work than keeping it attended all the time. It does add about a pound and a half to my setup (the weight was slightly offset by no longer carrying a food bag, line, etc) but on my last 4 day trip my pack was still under 24lbs including food and water, so I'm fine with that. Do I think a canister is really needed on the A.T.? No. However I'm finding it to be a method that is convenient based in how I hike.
Other comments:
At night I would just place it upright in a low lying area a short distance from the my tent.
It's important to note that the BV canisters' lid does not have an o-ring, so it needs to be placed upright in order to be rain proof.
As to your other question, I very rarely encounter ant problems in the A.T., so I can't speak to that.
Great points Sarcasm....I believe the positives very much outweigh the negatives. The more I research this, the more I'm leaning towards the Bearikade. I like its design better and believe it would hold up nicer if a bear started playing with it and/or biting it. Looking at my pack, I think it would fit nicely vertical like you said....
HooKooDooKu
08-31-2017, 14:20
The list is informative - any canister that passes the IABC tests is on it. ...
No, approved lists are not simply "informative".
Check out the Yellowstone National Park web page on Bear-Resistant Food Storage Containers (https://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/brfoodstorage.htm). It explicitly states
Not all containers approved by the IGBC are approved for use in Yellowstone's backcountry. Containers that are not listed on this document are not allowed for food storage.
Check out the Yosemite National Park web page and they too list specific containers that are allowed, and their list is different from Yellowstone (https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/containers.htm).
On that subject, I find it interesting that the Bearikade is NOT IGBC approved, yet Yosemite allows it and Yellowstone does not.
mateozzz
08-31-2017, 19:51
I have a BV500 and I like it. I've used it on the AT and on other trails.
basically, everything that has a smell to it needs to either be hung or put in a bear canister
I don't think they make a bear vault big enough to stuff a hiker into it.
Another Kevin
08-31-2017, 19:52
No, approved lists are not simply "informative".
Check out the Yellowstone National Park web page on Bear-Resistant Food Storage Containers (https://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/brfoodstorage.htm). It explicitly states
Check out the Yosemite National Park web page and they too list specific containers that are allowed, and their list is different from Yellowstone (https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/containers.htm).
On that subject, I find it interesting that the Bearikade is NOT IGBC approved, yet Yosemite allows it and Yellowstone does not.
OK, then it's perhaps that NYSDEC lacks the authority (or thinks it lacks the authority) to designate specific vendors in its regulations. It's operating under State law, not Federal, after all.
ADK surely warns (https://www.adk.org/a-bear-can-use-it-or-lose-i/) that the BearVault is less than effective.
MuddyWaters
08-31-2017, 20:19
On that subject, I find it interesting that the Bearikade is NOT IGBC approved, yet Yosemite allows it and Yellowstone does not.
Well, if one thinks about it for a few sec,
Theres no grizzly in Yosemite, but there is in Yellowstone
So it makes perfect sense
I don't think they make a bear vault big enough to stuff a hiker into it.
Hahahahahah!!! You don't even know me, yet you say that I smell??? It was so bad on my section in July that I could smell myself. It was so discusting! I can't imagine how a bear or anyone/anything else might want to get close and personal. But you have a point... It happens. Fortunately, it's rare.
HooKooDooKu
09-01-2017, 00:20
Well, if one thinks about it for a few sec,
Theres no grizzly in Yosemite, but there is in Yellowstone
So it makes perfect sense
I seem to recall reading that there used to be two bear canister certification organizations... one that certified against black bears and another (IGBC) that certified against grizzlies. But today, only the IGBC remains. So if you want your bear canister to get certified by an organization that is pretty much universally recognized, you've got to certification from IGBC.
So the reason I find it interesting that Yosemite approves the Bearikade isn't that it's not tested against grizzlies, but that it isn't certified by an recognized bear canister testing organization.
But to your point... the Bearikade website claims that it was tested against bears back in 2000... so if that other organization I was talking about is the group that tested the Bearikade back in 2000, I could see how Yosemite would effectively "grandfather" the approval from the old and now disbanded organization that tested against black bears.
I contrast, I don't think any other manufacturer could get Yosemite to approve a new canister that hasn't met IGBC certification... not because they want something grizzly proof... but because IGBC is the only game in town.
MuddyWaters
09-01-2017, 05:16
Its very important for users to realize, that cannisters are largely successfull, because they arent challenged much by bears. The whole premise is that bears will quickly learn they cannot get the food inside, and not even try.
Black bears have done the following to IGBC "approved" cannisters:
Opened lid
Smashed by dropping off cliff
Chewed holes
Testing is only ONE indication if there is a resonable chance of success from a 1 hr long attack. It is not a definitive determination, obviously. In fact, to call it a test is quite generous. They allow bears to play with it. Well fed captive bears. What bears do, is random. May differ test to test
If I recall, the bearikade issue is that grizzly weight can be large enough to deform the lid.
Five Tango
09-01-2017, 08:33
Alternative uses for BV500-Stool,campfire bucket,ultralight washing machine,Pop Tart protector.It's all about the Pop Tarts my friends!
saltysack
09-01-2017, 11:20
Alternative uses for BV500-Stool,campfire bucket,ultralight washing machine,Pop Tart protector.It's all about the Pop Tarts my friends!
Pls clarify the camp fire bucket idea before some dumb arse builds a fire inside of it.....another option is fill with fire flies and you have a lantern/disco ball for your tent....think I'll stick with my food bag pillow....[emoji51]
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Sarcasm the elf
09-01-2017, 11:36
Alternative uses for BV500-Stool,campfire bucket,ultralight washing machine,Pop Tart protector.It's all about the Pop Tarts my friends!
More possible uses:
40192
MuddyWaters
09-01-2017, 11:53
Alternative uses for BV500-Stool,campfire bucket,ultralight washing machine,Pop Tart protector.It's all about the Pop Tarts my friends!
In areas where required, your food thats not in container, is required to be in arms reach. Ie, in your possesion.
It makes using container for things like wash basin or fire-putter-outer kind of difficult
Five Tango
09-01-2017, 20:27
In areas where required, your food thats not in container, is required to be in arms reach. Ie, in your possesion.
It makes using container for things like wash basin or fire-putter-outer kind of difficult
Well FWIW,I keep my goods in an odor proof bag inside the cannister because while cannisters are reasonable bear proof they do not conceal odors.I guess I could hold the bag in one hand and pour or wash with the other?
MuddyWaters
09-01-2017, 20:52
Well FWIW,I keep my goods in an odor proof bag inside the cannister because while cannisters are reasonable bear proof they do not conceal odors.I guess I could hold the bag in one hand and pour or wash with the other?
Could alwsys have in pack if at your side
Im just sayin, leave your food on ground a few feet away while washing shorts in can in yosemite and mr ranger will ticket you. A significant # of yosemite bear -food incidents are surprises when bear apears at campsite and container is not secure.
Five Tango
09-01-2017, 21:12
If I ever go out west,I will keep that in mind.Not on the bucket list though.Did make a quick day visit on a business trip once though.Got the T shirt for the wife.