bears in the south

[longshank]

I've heard that there are many bears in the south, and that some of the shelters have gate that come down over the front, but I also heard that hikers were feeding the bears throught the gates, resulting in a decision to remove said gates. Won't this create a situation where the bears, now conditioned to go to the shelters for food, are getting into bed with hikers?

Has anyone had close encounters with bears on the trail besides?

[KirkMcquest]

I think I already told you this one LS, but I'm going to tell it anyway. Me and a buddy were hiking in upstate NY, when we were charged by a black bear, who had hid in the bushes and was waiting for us to get close. We stood absolutely still. Stood our ground, but not aggressively. After a while ( seemed like forever) he turned and slowly left.

Afterwards, I read up about bears, and how to read their body language;

1. A black bear WILL charge but its 99% a bluff
2. When a bear moves his head from side to side, he is confused and looking for a way out of the confrontation
3. When bears stand up, they are trying to get a scent of you, NOT intimidate you
4. When his/her ears are back, he has bad intentions ( this may also be a bluff).

[dizzyT]

Now see this is what we need hear. A highly informative thread about issues on the AT. This is much better than arguing. I for one am very thankful that LS starteg this forum so that we can all tae the high road. If it werent for this valuable thread started by LS we would have never been privy to this valuable information shared by McQ. Thank both of you so much. See this truce is good stuff.

[dizzyT]

wow guess I should have proof read that first

[KirkMcquest]

I've heard that there are many bears in the south, and that some of the shelters have gate that come down over the front, but I also heard that hikers were feeding the bears throught the gates, resulting in a decision to remove said gates. Won't this create a situation where the bears, now conditioned to go to the shelters for food, are getting into bed with hikers?

Has anyone had close encounters with bears on the trail besides?

From what I understand, the removal of the gates is kind of new. I think we're going to hear more about bear encounters within the next year or two

[ed bell]

I am all for the removal of chain link fencing from the open end of shelters. The Park Service is acting on this because of the "reverse zoo" aspect of letting the bears roam free outside the shelters, while the "captive" humans remained inside the shelter. Hunting of bears is illegal inside National Parks. This compounds the problem. Bears in the Smokys are generally less skittish than bears encountered in other areas.

[longshank]

I am all for the removal of chain link fencing from the open end of shelters. The Park Service is acting on this because of the "reverse zoo" aspect of letting the bears roam free outside the shelters, while the "captive" humans remained inside the shelter. Hunting of bears is illegal inside National Parks. This compounds the problem. Bears in the Smokys are generally less skittish than bears encountered in other areas.
But now that the bears are used to getting fed at the shelters, they're going to go back, xcept this time there will be no fence...

[KirkMcquest]

But now that the bears are used to getting fed at the shelters, they're going to go back, xcept this time there will be no fence...

Bear jerkie, anyone?

[irritable_badger]

There may be a few "close encounters" but I suspect that the bears will learn there is no longer food available at those shelters; assuming people stop feeding them. Bears are very intelligent and just as they learned where to get people food, they will learn the source is no longer viable. After meeting a few hikers armed with rocks, making noise, and not giving up food they will look elsewhere. At least I hope this is what happens. It would be a pity for the park service to start killing bears because a few stupid humans fed them food in the past.

[ed bell]

But now that the bears are used to getting fed at the shelters, they're going to go back, xcept this time there will be no fence...

I don't think the problem was backpackers feeding bears through the fence. The problem was that shelter dwellers in the Smokys were not activly chasing bears out of camp because of the safety of the chain link fence. The bears come back time and again and the shelter dwellers can just sit and watch. Thus the "reverse zoo". I'm not saying that everyone did this, cause I have some old time friends who ALWAYS chased bears off in the Smokys. Many others probably did the same when it came down to their overnight camp.

[RedneckRye]

I heard that Longshank and KirkMcQuest shoud go to the south and rub peanut butter all over their naked bodies and see if they have any problems with bears, or anyone that lives in the south, or anyone that lives in the north, or anyone that lives in the west, or anyone that lives in the east. If there was no problem the first time, maybe they should try again. Then again. Then maybe several times after that. Because we need details, with facts and percentages, and photos, and results published in some sort of accredited journal.
I heard that they should do this ASAP so the thru-hikers of '06 can learn from these fine men.

[Lone Wolf]

Speaking of bears, I saw the flick about the idiot that thought he was a grizzly last nite on Discovery. That boy had no fries in his happy meal!:D He deserved what he got.

[MOWGLI]

That's a little harsh LW. He was actually a pretty innaresting cat, don't ya think? And he did die doing what he loved most. How many folks can go to the grave saying that?

Speaking of the Smoky Mtn Shellters, it's all about education of hikers. Before they remove the fencing, there can be no bear activity at the shelter for more than a year. Glen the Ridgerunner could provide more info if & when he logs on here.

[MOWGLI]

PS: The movie LW is talking about, Grizzly Man, will encore at 8 PM tonight - Saturday Feb 4 on the Discovery Channel.

[Lone Wolf]

Harsh? Naw. Did you see the movie? He was caressing a pile of bear s**t for crissakes. He was suicidal.

[Lone Wolf]

PS: The movie LW is talking about, Grizzly Man, will encore at 8 PM tonight - Saturday Feb 4 on the Discovery Channel.
It shoulda been named "Grizzly Chow".:)

[Blue Jay]

Harsh? Naw. Did you see the movie? He was caressing a pile of bear s**t for crissakes. He was suicidal.

I love that movie, especially the part where he's talking to the camera, his back to the bear, who is only a few yards away. When he turns to look at the bear, a fox pops up and mugs for the camera. I do not in any way think he was suicidal. He knew the risk and accepted it for the life he wanted. You and I ride Harleys, that is massively dangerous. If anything, with the car drivers around here, hanging out with grizzlies is far safer. If one of us eats a toyota, people are going to call us fools also.

[Peaks]

I've heard that there are many bears in the south, and that some of the shelters have gate that come down over the front, but I also heard that hikers were feeding the bears throught the gates, resulting in a decision to remove said gates. Won't this create a situation where the bears, now conditioned to go to the shelters for food, are getting into bed with hikers?

Has anyone had close encounters with bears on the trail besides?

First, bears are creatures of habit. They know where to find food. This means that along popular trails, like the AT, they know that the pickings is right at shelters. In residential areas, they know to find food in garbage cans, dumpsters, and bird feeders.

In the national parks, animals are protected. Consequently, the wildlife is very tame. They have no fear of humans.

Decades ago, when bears when bears were a problem in Great Smokey Mountains National Park, chain link fences were put up across the front of all shelters. So, in this reserse zoo, some campers baited the bears. In the past decade or so, GSMNP has removed or shot the "bad" bears, and done more with camper education (Don't feed the animals.) And they have put up bear cables for food storage. As a result, the chain link fencing has been removed from most of the shelters.

In other areas with bear problems, including Georgia, Shenandoah National Park, New Jersey, and the White Mountains, there are bear boxes or bear poles, or bear cables for your food at night.

In areas where there is bear hunting, you may still see a bear, but it's usually just it's hind end as it running over the hill to get away from you, or you will hear it crashing through the woods to get away from you.

[bigmac_in]

There may be a few "close encounters" but I suspect that the bears will learn there is no longer food available at those shelters; assuming people stop feeding them. Bears are very intelligent and just as they learned where to get people food, they will learn the source is no longer viable. After meeting a few hikers armed with rocks, making noise, and not giving up food they will look elsewhere. At least I hope this is what happens. It would be a pity for the park service to start killing bears because a few stupid humans fed them food in the past.

Several years ago, when i was on a canoe trip in the Boundary Waters of Minnesota, a local told me the bears "re-learn" the food sources every year. He said the bears don't become a problem on the trails until later in the year, IF people leave food around. I don't know if this is true, but if it is the bears in SMNP won't immediately return to the shelters this year looking for food. They will only show up if it becomes a food source.

[longshank]

I think we need more bears in the world

[irritable_badger]

A bear walks into a bar in Billings, Montana and sits down. He bangs on the bar with his paw and demands a beer. The bartender approaches and says, "We don't serve beer to bears in bars in Billings." The bear, becoming angry, demands again that he be served a beer.
Bartender tells him again, more forcefully, "We don't serve beer to belligerent bears in bars in Billings."
The bear, very angry now, says, "If you don't serve me a beer, I'm going to eat that lady sitting at the end of the bar."
The bartender says, "Sorry, we don't serve beer to belligerent, bully bears in bars in Billings."
The bear goes to the end of the bar, and, as promised, eats the woman. He comes back to his seat and again demands a beer.
The bartender states, "Sorry, we don't serve beer to belligerent, bully bears in bars in Billings who are on drugs."
The bear says, "I'm NOT on drugs!."
The bartender says, "You are now. That was a barbitchyouate."

[Turtle2]

Speaking of bears and the Boundary Waters, years ago when finishing our canoe trip, we set up a fly to sleep under on the last night. During the night a bear tumbled down the hill at the back of the tarp then proceeded to walk thru the tarp (yes it was large as it slept 6) and on out to the camp fire area. He just nosed around and went on his way.

[saimyoji]

In Japan we have something called the Ezo brown bear, similar inmany to a grizzly. The cops use rubber bullets on the bears when they become a problem, hurts/scares the crap out of them and they run away. After a while, the bears have learned to associate the sound of the guns with the pain of the bullets. Often times, the cops need not shoot the bears, just run a tape of the guns and the bears split.

Think this a plausible solution in shelters? Imagine a rubber bullet automatic weapon in every shelter....


There was a news story one day of a guy fishing and some bears came up after him. He started running away and throwing things at the bears, but he kept his creel with him. Stupid ass threw the creel last and the bears broke off the chase. Some people don't learn so well.

[longshank]

In Japan we have something called the Ezo brown bear, similar inmany to a grizzly. The cops use rubber bullets on the bears when they become a problem, hurts/scares the crap out of them and they run away. After a while, the bears have learned to associate the sound of the guns with the pain of the bullets. Often times, the cops need not shoot the bears, just run a tape of the guns and the bears split.

Think this a plausible solution in shelters? Imagine a rubber bullet automatic weapon in every shelter....


There was a news story one day of a guy fishing and some bears came up after him. He started running away and throwing things at the bears, but he kept his creel with him. Stupid ass threw the creel last and the bears broke off the chase. Some people don't learn so well.
It could serve to settle disputes between hikers as well.

[longshank]

I hike in the catskills alot and have often been terrorized by porcuoines through the nights in shelters... is this common on the AT as well?

[longshank]

I often have had problems with porcupines terrorizing shelters through the nights while hiking in the catskills....Is this common on th AT as well?

[carolinahiker]

Okay two smoky mtn bear stores First the gates are gone. Now the stories we call the black bears in the national park mugger bears around here, they bluff charge you to get you to be stupid and drop your pack and move off all they want is the pack yell scream etc they take off very fast. The second was hiking with my sons scout troop in the smokies we had stoped for the night i was in flip flops and shorts messin with a kids stove when the whole troops ran by me like the dominos guy was comin up the trail behind me, one kid thought to yell Bear as he went by, The other scout leader tried to stop the kids it was like herding cats. the bear took one look at me and the panic it had caused and took off funny no one moaned about a bear bag that night. And also i dont think im bad lookin enought to scare off a bear but i could be wrong one of the kids said he might have thought i was bigfoot hairy as i am lol.

[Blue Jay]

I often have had problems with porcupines terrorizing shelters through the nights while hiking in the catskills....Is this common on th AT as well?

Actually porcupines are much more dangerous than bears. Bears will only eat your food, porcupines will eat your shoes. I'd much rather walk out hungrey than barefoot.:banana

[AbeHikes]

PS: The movie LW is talking about, Grizzly Man, will encore at 8 PM tonight - Saturday Feb 4 on the Discovery Channel.

I just tuned in and have seen about 5 minutes of it.

Um, these sort of situations just seem to take care of themselves.

[Almost There]

LW,

I have to agree about the Grizzly Man, what an ASSHAT!!! Doing what he loved sure, but his rants that were never meant to be seen about the Forest Service, etc. His talk of poachers when numbers show poaching was almost nonexistent in Alaska during the period he was there. The best was because he was pissed at his airline he went back to the Grizzly Maze in early October. I have talked to some who say you don't go into bear country that late in the year because all you are left with is old bears who couldn't get enough food, and more solitary bears from the high country, they have yet to go into hibernation and are looking for anything they can eat, so he and his girlfriend became the tasty morsel of one such bear. His stupidity got the bear and his girlfriend killed, he should have known better. If you watch the whole thing you can see how unhinged he was...and I agree watching him caress the bear turd and lovingly talk about how it came from her body...I was stunned, what a complete loon.

[Moxie00]

Support the right to arm bears

[b moore]

In late July '05 Appalachian Annie and I were hiking in the Smokies, overnighting at Icewater Springs along with three other hikers. Unable to sleep, around midnight I sat upright in my sleeping bag from the top platform in the shelter just to see what may be meandering around in the light of the full moon. A large black bear was in the shelter area between the sleeping platforms and the tables in front. Guess I startled him as he made haste around the corner post where he joined another of equal size a few feet in front of the shelter. No chains on this shelter.
:clap Lucky us - we had hung our food earlier and encountered no problems.
Bgone

[gsmnpmtguyot]

Speaking of bears, I saw the flick about the idiot that thought he was a grizzly last nite on Discovery. That boy had no fries in his happy meal!:D He deserved what he got. " Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matthew 7:1-2. "Our judgements judge us, and nothing reveals us, exposes our weaknesses, more ingeniously than the attitude of pronouncing upon our fellows." Paul Valery. My guess is that, last time you saw a 100lb bear on the trail you shat your drawers, and seeing Mr. Treadwell in close proximity to bears brought out certain anxieties. I imagine that after 13 seasons in the Alaskan backcountry, Mr. Treadwell could teach us all a little about camping. I wish I could get so close to wildlife. Anyway, yeah, southern black bears will bluff charge to get you to leave your food. Once at Joyce Kilmer-Slickrock an extremely large (~ 400lbs) male charged into camp while I was cooking supper. I stood up, held my ground and banged on a pot lid; he looked at me like "dude you're not playing by the rules". Was I scared? Hell yes!, but I had my supper that night and he did'nt. Just follow common sense rules, don't cook in your tent, your sleeping bag ( while lying in it), change clothes and wash up before bed, and hang your food high, you'll be alright. I've never lost a crumb of food to a bear; mice, racoons and coyotes are another story. Additionally, we don't have porcupines in the TN-NC area.

[MOWGLI]

I hike in the catskills alot and have often been terrorized by porcuoines through the nights in shelters... is this common on the AT as well?

No, I think it's fairly uncommon for folks to be "terrorized" by such a docile animal. They are fairly common in New England. I remember one shelter in VT that was pretty badly gnawed by them. They have also made a comeback in NY/NJ in the last decade. I spotted a porky at High Point SP in NJ about 7 years ago, and started seeing road kill porkys in Sterling Forest SP at around the same time. Just watch your gear, especially anything salty when you're around 'em.

[MOWGLI]

Speaking of bears, I saw the flick about the idiot that thought he was a grizzly last nite on Discovery. That boy had no fries in his happy meal!:D He deserved what he got.

Yes I saw the flick. Watched part of it again last night. Who other than perhaps some of the Al Qaeda leaders deserves to be eaten alive by a bear? OK, maybe 2 or 3 folks on this site. :rolleyes:

But seriously, I could identify alot with the dude. I was lost in the sauce in my early 20s and re-discovered things that made me feel alive - like hiking. That's what happened to him, only his trail was the Kenai Peninsula. I think you also have to try and separate the guy on the camera from the "real" Timothy Treadwell. He was a thinking, feeling human being. Did you see his parents in the flick? His friends? C'mon, "deserved what he got?" He was an "asshat", whatever that is? Where's your humanity?

I think an "asshat" would be somebody who views those bears as a trophy to be killed, stuffed, and hung on the wall. I knew a guy like that when I lived in Warwick, NY. He was scared to go on the AT without a rifle. Yup, a real tough guy. Had himself a Grizzly trophy too.

Mind ya, I got nuthin agin huntin', iffin yur gunna eat it.

[Almost There]

Mowgli,

As Forrest Gump said, "Stupid is as stupid does" I have no problem with the guy wanting to go up and be around the bears, and yes I will admit 13 years heading up there would allow him to learn much about them and how to behave around them. Notice I stated he was an "asshat" for going back in October, later in the year than he had ever been there and the worst time to be there as the only bears still out and about were those who had not "fed" enough yet. With the salmon runs over where were they gonna get their food? Worst, he took someone not as experienced back up with him in an area known to be dangerous by those who spent their lives going into the area. This one decision was stupid and ultimately cost him his life. Does anyone deserve to be eaten by a bear...NO. However, it would be like talking about someone who studied volcanoes their whole life who decided to summit one with an eruption pending or a professional mountain climber who decided to try and summit Everest in storm season. Can I admire him for his accomplishments sure, but the last decision he ever made...stupid and ultimately fatal. With his wealth of knowledge...he should have known better, and if he cared about his girlfriend he shouldn't have taken her. Sorry dude, but why praise a guy for being stupid and shirking his responsibility, BTW, I did think the documentary was superb.

[Inn Keeper]

Mowgli,

As Forrest Gump said, "Stupid is as stupid does" I have no problem with the guy wanting to go up and be around the bears, and yes I will admit 13 years heading up there would allow him to learn much about them and how to behave around them. Notice I stated he was an "asshat" for going back in October, later in the year than he had ever been there and the worst time to be there as the only bears still out and about were those who had not "fed" enough yet. With the salmon runs over where were they gonna get their food? Worst, he took someone not as experienced back up with him in an area known to be dangerous by those who spent their lives going into the area. This one decision was stupid and ultimately cost him his life. Does anyone deserve to be eaten by a bear...NO. However, it would be like talking about someone who studied volcanoes their whole life who decided to summit one with an eruption pending or a professional mountain climber who decided to try and summit Everest in storm season. Can I admire him for his accomplishments sure, but the last decision he ever made...stupid and ultimately fatal. With his wealth of knowledge...he should have known better, and if he cared about his girlfriend he shouldn't have taken her. Sorry dude, but why praise a guy for being stupid and shirking his responsibility, BTW, I did think the documentary was superb.
Professer it takes all kinds

[longshank]

No, I think it's fairly uncommon for folks to be "terrorized" by such a docile animal. They are fairly common in New England. I remember one shelter in VT that was pretty badly gnawed by them. They have also made a comeback in NY/NJ in the last decade. I spotted a porky at High Point SP in NJ about 7 years ago, and started seeing road kill porkys in Sterling Forest SP at around the same time. Just watch your gear, especially anything salty when you're around 'em.
I've had them come right up into the shelters while sleeping. You scare them away(although they don't really get too concerned, being porcys as they are and all) but they come right back in about 1/2 hr. I guess "terrorize" might be the wrong term, but the situation can become out of control. It's like they're ready to get in the sleeping bag with you. And although they look cool at a distance during the day, at night they look downrigh demonic.

[mingo]

That's a little harsh LW. He was actually a pretty innaresting cat, don't ya think? And he did die doing what he loved most. How many folks can go to the grave saying that?

Speaking of the Smoky Mtn Shellters, it's all about education of hikers. Before they remove the fencing, there can be no bear activity at the shelter for more than a year. Glen the Ridgerunner could provide more info if & when he logs on here.

actually, the smokies has bear trouble at just about every shelter every year and that hasn't stopped them from removing the fences. i don't think it has much to do with bears. i think it's a mouse thing. at least that's what smoky mtn hiking club people have told me. when the fences were up, people hung their food inside rather than using the outside cable systems. when they took down the fences, they were afraid of bears and so they used the outside hangars for their food, which cuts down on the rodent problem in the shelters.

[ed bell]

You scare them away(although they don't really get too concerned, being porcys as they are and all) but they come right back in about 1/2 hr. I guess "terrorize" might be the wrong term, but the situation can become out of control.

I have had this problem with skunks on several occasions. I manage to shoo them off, but they wait a bit, and come back for more. It can be downright annoying, but hey I guess live and let live applies. (as long as no spraying occurs):sun

[ed bell]

i think it's a mouse thing. at least that's what smoky mtn hiking club people have told me. when the fences were up, people hung their food inside rather than using the outside cable systems. when they took down the fences, they were afraid of bears and so they used the outside hangars for their food, which cuts down on the rodent problem in the shelters.

:-? Interesting point. I, personally am an anti-shelter backpacker and have wondered about the mandatory shelter rule. I am of the view that shelters promote animal problems. As far as the Smokys go, I can understand the dilemma from their end. You have the busiest National Park intersecting the most prolific National Trail. The ridgeline traverse is very beautiful, yet probably a tough run to manage. Allowing people to tent camp up there would create more problems.

[LuTotten]

For those of you who missed the program, you can read it too, there is one by him and one about him. I got the one about him its called death in the grizzly maze. Another book that tells a good bit about bear behaviors is Among the Bear by Ben Kilham. He learned through raising cubs.

[AbeHikes]

Mowgli,

As Forrest Gump said, "Stupid is as stupid does" I have no problem with the guy wanting to go up and be around the bears, and yes I will admit 13 years heading up there would allow him to learn much about them and how to behave around them. Notice I stated he was an "asshat" for going back in October, later in the year than he had ever been there and the worst time to be there as the only bears still out and about were those who had not "fed" enough yet. With the salmon runs over where were they gonna get their food? Worst, he took someone not as experienced back up with him in an area known to be dangerous by those who spent their lives going into the area. This one decision was stupid and ultimately cost him his life. Does anyone deserve to be eaten by a bear...NO. However, it would be like talking about someone who studied volcanoes their whole life who decided to summit one with an eruption pending or a professional mountain climber who decided to try and summit Everest in storm season. Can I admire him for his accomplishments sure, but the last decision he ever made...stupid and ultimately fatal. With his wealth of knowledge...he should have known better, and if he cared about his girlfriend he shouldn't have taken her. Sorry dude, but why praise a guy for being stupid and shirking his responsibility, BTW, I did think the documentary was superb.

Kind of like saying "I love cars" and then trying to dodge them in Interstate traffic...

[ozwingchun]

I heard that Longshank and KirkMcQuest shoud go to the south and rub peanut butter all over their naked bodies and see if they have any problems with bears,

seems like someone has a food fetish and is trying to get longshank and kirk out in the woods alone in 07.
longshank watch out for guys in bear costumes wanting to lick the peanut butter off you.

[Ridge]

Just hang with a hiker and their dog. Its a very good chance you want see any wildlife.

[mambo_tango]

According to my brother (who lives in AK), Grizzley Man said he would be "honored'' to be found in bear scat. He got his wish!