View Full Version : The subject is Shelters
Turtle-2013
09-10-2017, 21:44
I guess I'm on a soap box today, but I think if I was a shelter builder or maintainer ...and WhiteBlaze was my only source of information ... I'd take my hammer, saw, and broom and go home.
Most of the comments I read about shelters on WB would lead me to think that shelters are rat infested, dirty, rundown places to be avoided at all costs. It makes me think that many of these fine folks haven't stayed in a shelter in many years ........ if ever. Personally, I choose to stay at shelters whenever possible ... as an early starter in the mornings, they allow me to get away more quickly, and with dryer equipment.
I will of course admit that there is the occasional shelter that could use some serious renovation, but by in large the shelters on the AT are reasonably clean, well maintained, and dry. There are many that are even delightful places because of design, view, or exceptional maintenance. Based on the number of times I arrive at a shelter and it is full, or nearly full ... I believe a lot of people agree with me on this opinion.
So ... here is my thanks to the shelter builders and maintainers!!! Your hard work is much appreciated by this section hiker. Kudos for all your hard work and dedication.
Turtle
P.S. I have been know to "complain" when there isn't a shelter where I need it, or the shelters are a long way off the trail ... but these aren't serious complaints. I am well aware that shelters are where they are for reasons of accessibility, water, terrain, and other related issues. Besides, if you spaced them how I wanted, then they would be wrong for those who hike more or less in a day. So, those complaints should be entirely disregarded. They only come at the end of a long day hiking.
SkeeterPee
09-10-2017, 22:33
How many times have you seen mice vs not seeing mice at night? I mostly tent, but have seen a lot of mice at one shelter I stayed at. I sleep inside as there were no tent spots. Fortunately it was below freezing and it seemed the mice may have went into their burrow at night. they were crawling all around the leaf litter while I was eating. But either I did not notice or they stayed outside.
How many times have you seen mice vs not seeing mice at night?
On a long section hike in 2007, I slept in shelters on maybe 20 out of 40 nights... not a single mouse encounter that I recall. It was late in the season and I had the shelters to myself most of those nights.
MuddyWaters
09-10-2017, 22:53
Most of the comments I read about shelters on WB would lead me to think that shelters are rat infested, dirty, rundown places to be avoided at all costs.
Mice infested....for sure
Dirty....yes. no way to keep anything in woods clean. Swept and clean are different things. Fire rings always debris filled.
Rundown.... Not often. Most old really bad shelters have been replaced. More like " rustic"
Avoid at all costs.....unless you like sleeping with snoring, farting, tossing turning , getting up to pee strangers.
Sleeping on the floor next to a stranger who happens to be a guy with a big bead and who smells of Snickers is kinda creepy. So... a tent it is!
illabelle
09-11-2017, 06:34
I agree with you Turtle. Those who build and/or maintain shelters (and those who build/maintain trails) are special people. I can't tell you how many times I've encountered horrible terrain that was made much easier because someone rearranged the boulders into steps. I feel great admiration for those with the skill and strength to do such difficult work. And the shelters - regardless of the spiders and mice and snorers - are likewise the result of someone working their butt off to make the trail easier for me.
Over the course of my AT venture, I stayed in the shelters about 60% of the time, and rented the rest, except for the occasional hostel. I would have to agree with Turtle, that most shelters were acceptably clean, with a few exceptions.
I place shelters in two categories. Those built directly on the ground, such as those with stone walls and with log walls laying on the ground, and those shelters built up off the ground on pillars at the corners.
Unless they've been replaced in the last two years, the worst shelters on the trail are those in Tennessee and North Carolina. Even those I've only encountered mouse problems twice, once at Cherry Gap (stone walls), and at Cold Spring. I understand Cold Spring is being replaced.
I found the shelters through Virginia very nice, built up on concrete piers. Most were very clean and a pleasure to stay in.
Maine has a unique design for their shelters. They are old, but haven't encountered mice there.
...Most old really bad shelters have been replaced....
Going to have to disagree on this one. From Georgia to Maine we saw dozens of shelters that were in pretty bad shape, in fact some were deplorable. But, for every truly bad shelter we would come across some very nice new structures as well. I guess the best way to think about it was as a bell curve. Some fantastic, some horrid, and most in between.
As for the mice issue, it was a common problem once the weather warmed up. The biggest reason we tried to avoid shelters when possible was the behavior of some hikers, not the shelter conditions or vermin.
https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=17117
Guess the snakes use it as a delicatessen.
Just out of curiosity, do any of the shelters these days have rats?
Ice Water Springs shelter used to be famous for them.
They were well known to run all over your sleeping bag in the middle of the night. Not fun, but actually protected by the park.
I like tenting in the vicinity of shelters because I like the company. I used to avoid staying in the shelters until I hiked through GSMNP and had no choice and stayed in them four nights in a row. Since I found that experience to be not so bad I have since occasionally stayed in shelters but still would rather tent near them instead. I'm glad they exist. They make for natural gathering places for those who like that. For those who don't like that, they can stay away from shelters (with the exception of GSMNP). The network of shelters on the AT and Long Trail make for a unique hiking experience which I enjoy -- most other long distance trails in this country don't have them.
Going to have to disagree on this one. From Georgia to Maine we saw dozens of shelters that were in pretty bad shape, in fact some were deplorable. But, for every truly bad shelter we would come across some very nice new structures as well. I guess the best way to think about it was as a bell curve. Some fantastic, some horrid, and most in between.
Yep. Some gorgeous, some kinda run down and ratty, most are in between. Personally I'm only really creeped out by the fully enclosed stone shelters, like Blood Mountain. I like it when the site has a nice view outward, or open to the sky, especially if the day's walk has been in the green tunnel.
As for the mice issue, it was a common problem once the weather warmed up. The biggest reason we tried to avoid shelters when possible was the behavior of some hikers, not the shelter conditions or vermin.
I'll stay in a shelter (or not) depending on about a dozen or more factors that I weigh in about 10 seconds time when I get there. Empty? Over full? Clean shelter or dirty? Nice site? Nice people? Friends or people I know? Tenting nearby? Long approach trail? I've been known to move from shelter to tent at a moment's notice in the middle of the night if the situation changes (heavy snorers, drunk or rowdy shelter-mates, etc.)
i stay at shelters whenever there is free space and theyre placed somewhere that works with my plan, which is frequently. i've even stayed at a few notoriously grimy places like cooper lodge and they arent nearly as bad as many make them seem. cooper had an obviously leaky roof, so i slept in a different spot, away from it. i lived.
i occasionally hear mice. one time, one ran across my head. i lived, its all good. part of being out in the woods. i once saw a mouse at a shelter checking out my stuff, but that wasnt on the AT.
nothing i own, food or anything else, has ever been damaged by any mice or any other critter. and i am far from the most careful person. inside a strong ziplock bag that is inside another larger bag and then inside my pack seems to keep them away just fine.
like many things, those who dislike something speak in hyperbole when they voice their opinions against it.
The AT shelters are like the folks who hike the AT. Some shelters are old and some are new, some shelters are dirty and some are clean, some shelters need work and others are well maintained.
Happy trails to all.
Slo-go'en
09-11-2017, 11:09
Shelter haters are a small minority, but very vocal in their opinions. Then as soon as it starts to rain, everyone wants to be in the shelter.
Emerson Bigills
09-11-2017, 11:34
Tented less than a dozen times on my thru. Saw mice around shelters down south about half the time. Never had any serious mice issues with my gear, food or my body. I hung or bear boxed my food almost every night. Some shelters are nicer than others and a couple are absolute dumps. A few are really masterpieces of backwoods construction and amazed me. Many have a picnic table and they are invaluable in the rain. I brought ear plugs and was generally so tired by the time I laid down that nothing bothered me for 5 hours. After that, sleep was off and on. Most people in the shelters were great company with less than 5% being annoying. Even then, they made good subject matter for hiking conversation for several days.
If you don't like shelters, don't stay in them. Some of us find them great and appreciate those that built and maintain them.
My favorite shelters so far have been Gentian Pond, Speck Pond, Carlo Col and Horns Pond. Most are rat boxes.
ldsailor
09-11-2017, 12:41
I try to stay in shelters as much as possible simply because it gives me the ability to get away faster in the morning. I'm a slow hiker and any advantage is welcome. Of course there are downsides to shelters as has been pointed out. While I'm not a fan of mice, I've slept in shelters where I have seen mice. What really turns me off about shelters is the lack of consideration some hikers have. Yes, I'm talking about snoring, excessive gas, loud ground cover sheets (tyvek), and the worst of all, a shelter mate rolling over so he is nearly on top of me. Sure, I can eliminate the problem by sleeping in a tent, but why should I? Maybe the noise makers should be sleeping in a tent instead of keeping everyone up all night. And before someone asks, ear plugs don't work. I can still hear the noise.
I hiked with a guy I met at a shelter this year. He snored like a train engine, and he knew it. Not once did he sleep in a shelter, because he knew he would keep the others up all night. I respected him for that.
I'm heading back to the AT this week for another couple of weeks. I bought a tarp to rig if I can't get a space in a shelter, and I'm leaving my tent home, which will save me about a pound in my pack. I'm looking forward to my hike.
Starchild
09-11-2017, 12:49
Shelters are pretty darn good for what they are. In my experience the mouse problem is greatly exaggerated. And Snoring as big a issue here as it is in a hostel bunk room. Their original purpose, a bad weather/ unfortunate circumstance shelter has been long forgotten by many and replaced with a LNT purpose, a place to concentrate human impact where it can be managed.
Teacher & Snacktime
09-11-2017, 13:37
I've visited many shelters but only slept in two of the outdoor variety (I assume UGPC doesn't count): Fingerboard in NY and Hemlocks in MA. Neither were inspiring structures, but neither were they infested or offensive. I thoroughly enjoyed both stays. However, in GA, the Stover Creek Shelter appeared to be so clean and inviting I wished at the time I could have ended my day there to just enjoy it. This was in October and past the bubble-mess and everything looked nice. Hawk Mtn Shelter? Not so much.....we camped.
Turtle-2013
09-11-2017, 16:13
Shelter haters are a small minority, but very vocal in their opinions. Then as soon as it starts to rain, everyone wants to be in the shelter.
Thanks, you summed up my thoughts beautifully in so few words. : )
Puddlefish
09-11-2017, 16:38
I'm not sure why you'd correlate gross shelters with maintenance and building? It's not the physical structure that's ever the problem, it's the slobs who frequent them. I only stayed in two shelters overnight, but I stopped at a bunch of them to be social. There's almost always some slob cooking sloppily, spilling food and making no effort to clean it up. These sloppy hikers may or may not even spend the night at the shelter. That's what leads to the vermin problem, and it has nothing to do with the maintainers or builders.
Shelter haters are a small minority, but very vocal in their opinions. Then as soon as it starts to rain, everyone wants to be in the shelter.
Exactly this. We camped at shelters every night and ate lunch most days at one. They are most often associated with a water source which makes them extra convenient as well. Personally prefer to be in a tent even when it is raining but we did sleep in shelters many times. Didn't really have any problems with mice although we did hear them. Not sure what folks are expecting from shelters but I find them to be exactly as advertised. They are a basic refuge. Not sure what the haters are expecting exactly and also why they feel they need to preach their hate. If you don't want to stay in a shelter then DON'T stay in one.
Kudos to those that build and maintain them. You are much appreciated.
MuddyWaters
09-11-2017, 17:33
Shelter haters are a small minority, but very vocal in their opinions. Then as soon as it starts to rain, everyone wants to be in the shelter.
Maybe not shelter they dislike
But maybe....it the people that cling to them like a babe to mommas teat.
People that go into the woods, only if they can sleep in a building every night.
The fancier and nicer, the better.
Its a lot of people.
Is trail civilized enough
And loaded with free food
Do have to sleep in buildings too?
Berserker
09-11-2017, 17:36
I like tenting in the vicinity of shelters because I like the company. I used to avoid staying in the shelters until I hiked through GSMNP and had no choice and stayed in them four nights in a row. Since I found that experience to be not so bad I have since occasionally stayed in shelters but still would rather tent near them instead. I'm glad they exist. They make for natural gathering places for those who like that. For those who don't like that, they can stay away from shelters (with the exception of GSMNP). The network of shelters on the AT and Long Trail make for a unique hiking experience which I enjoy -- most other long distance trails in this country don't have them.
This pretty much sums up my thoughts and experience. After being forced into them in GSMNP I also have changed my mind from strong dislike to "eh, whatever". I typically tent and I do like how there is often decent relatively level ground around most shelters for setting up a tent. I also like having access to a picnic table, and others to talk to if I'm in the mood. I've even spent several nights hanging out in an empty shelter before retiring to my tent to sleep since it was raining.
I try to have items in my food bag that can be eaten cold. Alternatively, if I get enough advance warning of the rain, cook dinner early.
Elaikases
09-11-2017, 20:35
Exactly this. We camped at shelters every night and ate lunch most days at one. They are most often associated with a water source which makes them extra convenient as well. Personally prefer to be in a tent even when it is raining but we did sleep in shelters many times. Didn't really have any problems with mice although we did hear them. Not sure what folks are expecting from shelters but I find them to be exactly as advertised. They are a basic refuge. Not sure what the haters are expecting exactly and also why they feel they need to preach their hate. If you don't want to stay in a shelter then DON'T stay in one.
Kudos to those that build and maintain them. You are much appreciated.
Yes. I found the shelters to be exactly what I was expecting. Easy enough to avoid. In the off season they are often empty, even of mice.
Elaikases
09-11-2017, 20:36
Though, that said, I did read shelter journals about what it was like with 40+ campers and a privy that failed. I can see that (at the heart of the bubble) as being not such a great experience.
Maybe not shelter they dislike
But maybe....it the people that cling to them like a babe to mommas teat.
People that go into the woods, only if they can sleep in a building every night.
The fancier and nicer, the better.
Its a lot of people.
Is trail civilized enough
And loaded with free food
Do have to sleep in buildings too?
this 100%, it's supposed to be challenging and wilderness, I've seen a lot of people talking about rustic, a cottage is rustic, hiking trails should be wilderness
Traveler
09-15-2017, 07:44
this 100%, it's supposed to be challenging and wilderness, I've seen a lot of people talking about rustic, a cottage is rustic, hiking trails should be wilderness
Not a lot of wilderness on the AT, most of it is surprisingly close to roads and developments. You can get the "feel" of wilderness in a lot of places though, and most shelters are not on the trail itself and are fairly easy to move past sometimes without seeing them. Shelters serve a valuable function on heavily used long distance trails, from a fairly easily found waypoint to check progress, position, or a meeting point, to a life saving structure in the event of storms and cold weather.
Using them is optional (outside of a few areas the require their use) and long on opinions about them, but very short on volunteers to help maintain them and the trails they flank.
peakbagger
09-15-2017, 09:24
A lot of shelter issues are related to older not well thought out designs. PATC has built some nice solutions. Most of the vermin issues are related to the shelter being located directly on the ground with no air space underneath. The area under the floor becomes a good place to nest as its inaccessible. Lifting the shelter up on posts with an elevated floor with an open area under the shelter makes a big difference. It also removes a place to hide trash as some individuals will stuff trash into inaccessible spaces under a shelter rather than carry it out. It pretty surprising to see how much trash accumulates under a shelter floor. Open up this space to a couple of feet with gravel pad underneath and it solves these issues. The other major improvement is to install a covered picnic pavilion with picnic table for cooking that is located a short distance (100 feet or so) from the shelter. This cuts way down the amount of food and crumbs that get in the shelter to encourage vermin. Some designs incorporated a large overhang in front of the shelter with a picnic table but I felt that it was less effective at keeping cooking away from the shelter.
I expect the days of flaring white gas stoves is rapidly going away (except for winter use) but another good reason to have a separate cooking pavilion is that older white gas stoves like MSR Sveas and Optimus stoves occasionally would have fires usually due to poor operation but sometimes due to parts failure. These flares could start fires and its lot easier to replace a picnic table than a shelter. I have seen this flaring with homemade alcohol stoves but generally the fuel volume is far less so the major fire potential is less.
One not so great innovation is to install a bear line immediately adjacent to the shelter. It should be within sight but should be separated by some distance. Having it too close to the shelter just trains the bears that inevitably get attracted to it to get used to being in close proximity to people. I am not a fan of bear boxes, they seem to inevitably become trash receptacles and usually water will get in them and mix with various food debris to make them pretty foul. A bear line is far better as it just does not seem to attract the level of trash.
An older innovation that does not seem to be done as often anymore is the extend the side and rear overhangs and install pack hooks so that packs can be hung outside but out of the weather. Its a nice way to maximize floor space but I expect most folks want the false security of having the pack right next to them. A general complaint is that some shelter builders just refuse to put in pegs for hanging things up off the floor, I find the more the better and would rather see them integrated into the construction from the beginning