View Full Version : Have we all been brainwashed into using tents?
nsherry61
10-04-2017, 18:52
When we look at pictures of backpackers camps, tents seem to be a dominant theme, we rarely see tarps or open camping (no shelter).
Do we equate backpacking with tents because it is profitable for tent manufacturers?
Is our obsession with tents being central to backpacking kinda like the use of prescription drugs by doctors instead of also considering alternatives from physical therapy, to behavior changes, to nutrition to herbal alternative or whatever?
Like traditional American medicine tents can be highly effective and easy to use, but, they are often not the best choice and they are rarely the most affordable or the only alternative to solving the problem at hand.
The abundance and our overdependence on prescription drugs is driven largely by the opportunity for profits for large pharmaceutical firms. They make the drugs that solve some of our problems and then they promote them heavily to doctors and patients alike so they are the first if not the only solution we migrate toward to fix a problem, even if they are not the best option available.
Don't get me wrong, tents can be great especially during the depths of a bad bug season or when camping above treeline in the mountains in the winter. But, as one of the first pieces of equipment people buy? Backpacking any of the great long-distance backpacking trails in North America doesn't require a tent. It would be so much more rewarding for people to spend limited cash on a better backpack and better sleep system than an expensive, necessary shelter.
As brought up in another thread about tents:
Is there anyone out there that has used a tarp extensively in the past and now chooses to use a tent almost exclusively?
If so, why the change?
Also, who all has switched from dominantly tenting to dominantly tarping? Why?
Inertia. Tradition. And because they work.
Feral Bill
10-04-2017, 19:03
It's mental. Camping=tent. Often, but not always, or even most often the best solution. Get a copy of The Complete Walker for a good discussion of this (and almost any other) topic.
Runner2017
10-04-2017, 19:07
Courses for horses.
Sarcasm the elf
10-04-2017, 19:15
You should buy a hammock.
Puddlefish
10-04-2017, 19:20
Aversion to bugs, crawling things and wet ground underneath me. I really love the hiking part, I merely like the tenting/camping part. With a tarp, I suspect that like would tip over into dislike.
Odd Man Out
10-04-2017, 19:24
A few years ago I started a thread asking everyone to convince me into buying a tarp. I really wanted to go down that route, but i had a lot of questions and misgivings.There was much discussion of pros and cons, and ultimately went with a Tarp Tent Notch. Unfortunately, if I am a victim of addiction and brainwashing, it would be impossible for me to recognize or for anyone to convince me to change. At least I'm not a member of a cult, like the hammockers.
cmoulder
10-04-2017, 19:50
I use a Duplex, a tarp or tarp+bivy, or a Duomid, or cowboy camp depending upon the season/conditions for a particular trip.
I don't think I'm brainwashed, but then that's what brainwashed people think. Hmm... :-?
However, it is true that people in general associate backpacking and camping with tents. And fires. And S'mores. And dangerous animals. Etc.
Hatchet_1697
10-04-2017, 19:53
Not brainwashed, just familiar with them. When I got back into Backpacking I bought a tent because that’s what I used in Boy Scouts & the backyard growing up. I knew tents (and cowboy camping) and hadn’t been exposed to real camping Hammocks, tarps, or bivies. A tent was a known quantity, kind of like basic arithmetic, so it was a good starting point. I’ve since researched tarps and bivies, but landed in a hammock and love it. Guess I’ve moved up to geometry :) HYOH
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fiddlehead
10-04-2017, 20:14
Tarptent for me.
Switched over in '98 and haven't looked back.
Hiked 8500 miles before I switched (when I used tents) and 12,000 miles since with the tarptent.
My first tarp/tent in ('98) was the Black Diamond's "Megamid" which I used for my 1st CDT hike, the HRP (Pyrenees) and Grand Canyon kayak trip.
But, that was 2+ lbs!
So, I switched over to the Integral Designs "Sil Shelter" in 2000 and have been using it ever since.
Just finished the Via Dinarica using it.
Great shelter: 12 oz. and Many different options for setting it up.
For bugs, I stake it tight and use a headnet.
I'll sacrifice a few mosquitos buzzing in my ear for a lb of weight (almost) any night. (and I like not leaving my bag to pee!!!
MuddyWaters
10-04-2017, 20:17
When we look at pictures of backpackers camps, tents seem to be a dominant theme, we rarely see tarps or open camping (no shelter).
Do we equate backpacking with tents because it is profitable for tent manufacturers?
Is our obsession with tents being central to backpacking kinda like the use of prescription drugs by doctors instead of also considering alternatives from physical therapy, to behavior changes, to nutrition to herbal alternative or whatever?
Like traditional American medicine tents can be highly effective and easy to use, but, they are often not the best choice and they are rarely the most affordable or the only alternative to solving the problem at hand.
The abundance and our overdependence on prescription drugs is driven largely by the opportunity for profits for large pharmaceutical firms. They make the drugs that solve some of our problems and then they promote them heavily to doctors and patients alike so they are the first if not the only solution we migrate toward to fix a problem, even if they are not the best option available.
Don't get me wrong, tents can be great especially during the depths of a bad bug season or when camping above treeline in the mountains in the winter. But, as one of the first pieces of equipment people buy? Backpacking any of the great long-distance backpacking trails in North America doesn't require a tent. It would be so much more rewarding for people to spend limited cash on a better backpack and better sleep system than an expensive, necessary shelter.
As brought up in another thread about tents:
Is there anyone out there that has used a tarp extensively in the past and now chooses to use a tent almost exclusively?
If so, why the change?
Also, who all has switched from dominantly tenting to dominantly tarping? Why?
Well, multifaceted question.
wilderness hiking for pleasure is fairly new activity, as human history goes
soldiers of bygone eras used to wrap their gear up in their blanket, and throw it over across their body, over shoulder.
It was thicker and more padded, and more comfortable than a rucksack.
They also carried simple A frame tarp with open ends.
Travellers often sought lodging at farms, residences, plantations, etc. Sometimes sleeping on someones hay surreptitiously.
Given the small size and light weight of todays gear, a tent is a perfectly reasonable choice. As is a sleeping bag instead of thick 5 lb wool blanket.
But your right, people of the past would probably think we were nuts to confine ourselves in tiny frail cocoons. And to leave the skillet and hatchet at home. Why, cant even stand up inside! Cant stay inside in day, too hot!. But on the other hand, they keep rain out and bugs at bay, and dont weigh much..
I use a shaped tarp. I like to be able to look out and watch rain, hail. I like ventillation. I like the protection the shaped tarp provides, and that it sheds wind well . Can use bugnet, bug bivy, or just groundsheet under. And the tarp only weighs 7.7 oz. Downside...its quite cramped for headroom. But its for sleeping. Ive spent a day under it during downpours....I had to read, sleep, etc lyiing down. Gets old.
Spirit Walker
10-04-2017, 20:17
Every time I tried to cowboy camp on the AT, the dew dropped and I got soaked, or it would start to rain in the middle of the night. Bugs were also an issue, from Virginia to Maine. Heavy rains often soaked the ground, so I wanted something dry underneath. Since many lightweight tents are not much heavier than a tarp, and a lot easier to set up and good for year around use, I prefer a tent. They also have a lot more headroom than a bivy or a low set tarp.
Have been using a hammock, but "went to the ground" this spring just to "see if I could". Was surprised at the generous amount of space tarping provided, much better than a tent, and made note of how much warmer I was in the month of February as compared to hammock.
On the downside my 4'x8' polycro groundsheet seemed small leaving personal odds & ends sliding off the groundsheet while I slept. It was a clear night & the experience was a good one, but could see myself obsessing about site selection & things of that nature in the event of an oncoming storm. Staying dry is a big deal to me.
I use a tent in very cold, windy rain scenarios and a hammock every other time. I prefer to look up and see stars or tree canopy when possible. I suck it up and carry a tent just in case. I would rather a good nights sleep in terrible weather than to have a miserable day because I couldn't. Also nice to have a place to change clothes when other people are around that may not want to witness such an event(doesn't bother me.. I'm not shy)
I tried hammock camping and hated it. I roll around all night and never found them comfortable but, that's me. I actually like being in a tent, on an inflatable pad.
Hikingjim
10-04-2017, 21:28
I tent about 75% of trips. The weight is often worthwhile for extra warmth, bug protection, ease of setup (especially if rain)
If conditions are right, I enjoy the tarp option
When taking my tent, I leave the fly off if conditions are right. Makes it seem like less of a box
DownEaster
10-04-2017, 21:41
A tent is a usable solution on 99+% of all trips. A tarp is a usable solution on 70-80% of all trips. (This is for the environments where I backpack. Your numbers may vary.) I figure, why take the risk of being thoroughly miserable from bugs or horizontal rain? Lyme disease and hypothermia aren't hazards you want to treat lightly.
Time Zone
10-04-2017, 21:44
Do we equate backpacking with tents because it is profitable for tent manufacturers?
Is our obsession with tents being central to backpacking kinda like the use of prescription drugs by doctors instead of also considering alternatives from physical therapy, to behavior changes, to nutrition to herbal alternative or whatever?
In short, no. The prevalence of tents and pharmaceuticals are not analogous. As an aside, since this is not the forum for the US health care system, I don't know where you get the idea that doctors don't consider physical therapy and other treatment modalities. Perhaps your doctor doesn't, but it's too broad a brush to use for everyone's experience.
You seem bothered by the thought that many people don't like tarps as much as you. HYOH. Feel free to make your case, but people will be happy to tell you their own reasons for what they prefer. Maybe you should go on some group backpacking trips, set an example with your tarp, and see if you make any converts. If you don't, you can ask why.
jjozgrunt
10-04-2017, 21:46
After 20 years of sleeping under a tarp in the infantry I welcome and love my tent. Plus to many nasty things here, or as someone on the AT said to me this year " I'd love to hike in Australia, but everything is trying to kill you".
Slo-go'en
10-04-2017, 21:48
People are used to sleeping in a box of some sort and a tent is a good facsimile. Plus tents provide good all round protection from the elements. Tents are a good match for the conditions found on the AT, hence they dominate. Western hikers might make different choices.
After 20 years of sleeping under a tarp in the infantry I welcome and love my tent. Plus to many nasty things here, or as someone on the AT said to me this year " I'd love to hike in Australia, but everything is trying to kill you".
"Venomous Snakes and Insects of Australia, volumes 1-10"
How about privacy? Guess I'm brainwashed because I don't see the purpose of this discussion. I loved getting in my tent at the end of the day during my thru hike. It was my signal that I was done being sociable. Having a tent gave me security from the elements and wildlife. And before anybody tells me that it isn't secure from bears, fine, I know. Guess it goes back to the privacy and a psychological barrier. Would I have felt the same about my tent if I was on a much shorter hike? Maybe not but why can't I keep and use my tent for those trips too? Why do I have to use a tarp or cowboy camp? Does it make me less of a man?
Aversion to bugs, crawling things and wet ground underneath me. I really love the hiking part, I merely like the tenting/camping part. With a tarp, I suspect that like would tip over into dislike.
also appreciate a little more protection from sideways blowing rain!
Turtle-2013
10-04-2017, 23:05
I will note that the "tents" I started with were basically tarps with ends (no floor) ... we called them "pup tents" ... I even used a "tube tent" or two (add the floor, take away the ends). I did like my first Eureka Timberline and it's watertight bath bottom (still have it but not waterproof anymore ;( ) ... Anyway, now I generally use a tarp-tent of my own design ... weight savings was and is my motivation.
I tarp pretty much exclusively and almost without fail I get asked about the bugs, crawling things, and getting wet every time I go out. Ironically, I've gotten wet in a tent more than I ever have in my tarp. Actually the tarp has become a just in case item. If the weather cooperates I usually don't even set it up, just cowboy camp. Not sure I could go back to a tent but that's just my personal preference. I just really enjoy being able to see my surroundings when I go to bed and wake up.
Alligator
10-04-2017, 23:37
I only use a tent in the winter and sometimes that's a megamid not a full tent. Rest of the time, it's a tarp. Tarps are lighter yet more spacious. Minimalist. I don't worry much about cooking under it.
theinfamousj
10-05-2017, 00:09
My tarp tent is lighter than a tarp+bug bivvy or a tarp+bug net inner as it only has the little bit of bug netting that it needs.
That said, I know my way around a sewing machine (do the hammockers still call them "thread injectors"?) so pick up plenty of traditional double wall tents from garage sales, both REI and neighbors, to do quick repairs on and flip into a tiny profit/help my friends get geared up more cheaply. Turns out that there were quite a few of those tents that I really liked because they are freestanding or larger than my tarp tent or I just felt particularly proud of the repair job that I did and so now I have six tents. Admittedly, the sixth was given to me by my brother because who knows why he bought the 6 person car camping monstrosity that he did, but one of my social groups has borrowed it for years for their group camping trip and he's never actually used it, so now it is my tent and it lives with me.
And that is why I have a tent. Otherwise, I'd just have a tarp and a bivvy.
rocketsocks
10-05-2017, 00:17
Eating 7 spiders a year while you sleep prolly goes a long way to explaining the desire for tenting.
I don't like bugs crawling over me while I sleep, I don't like getting wet when it rains, and I don't like getting dressed/undressed in front of strangers, therefore I use a tent. I may or may not change my mind in the future but for now I'm quite happy in my ''box''.
Tipi Walter
10-05-2017, 00:21
wilderness hiking for pleasure is fairly new activity, as human history goes
But your right, people of the past would probably think we were nuts to confine ourselves in tiny frail cocoons.
Shelters are shelters. All primitive peoples had some sort of shelter. 10,000 years ago wilderness hiking WAS the norm---no fences, no cars, no jets, no horseback riding. With wilderness all around, who's to say people didn't walk thru it for pleasure??
People of the past themselves lived in tiny cocoons. It was common for a Hopi 12 foot diameter Hogan to house a family of 7 or more people. Several Plains Indian tribes used buffalo hide tipis which were very small.
But shelters are shelters, whether they be tents or tarps or tipis or chickees or witus or wall tents or whatever. In fact, there's no real difference between a tarp and a tent. Both use rain flies of some sort.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2016-Trips-171/19-Days-in-a-Rattlesnake/i-mMb6xjT/0/7d1af6d0/XL/Trip%20175%20175-XL.jpg
With both doors open my tent becomes a sort of tarp . . . with a floor.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2017-Trips-79/18-Days-in-the-Emerald-Thicket/i-5VmVDFM/0/a2d9e042/XL/Trip%20183%20%28410%29-XL.jpg
And when I remove the inner canopy/floor the tent becomes an actual tarp.
I don't like bugs crawling over me while I sleep, I don't like getting wet when it rains, and I don't like getting dressed/undressed in front of strangers, therefore I use a tent. I may or may not change my mind in the future but for now I'm quite happy in my ''box''.
This sums it up pretty well.
For the most part i'm hoping to make it from shelter to shelter as much as possible but of course i'm bringing a tent. I wouldn't mind just going cowboy while early on in GA and NC when the cold keeps the bugs down a bit but that's it. Also, i worked a couple of seasons in Shenandoah NP and it rained quite frequently at all hours at the day and night, some of them very intense storms, and was surprisingly cool well into June.
jjozgrunt
10-05-2017, 01:33
"Venomous Snakes and Insects of Australia, volumes 1-10"
So you've got the small travel copies instead of complete set!
For my desert hikes, I don't carry a shelter at all, I'm just cowboy camping. This forces me to choose the camp spot very carefully. Sometimes I can't avoid being near water (especially along the beach) and that means myriads of hungry moskitos. what leads to really miserable nights. Still, I won't carry a tent in the desert for just some single buggy nights, I'd rather suffer the bugs a few times than to carry the extra load for the whole trip.
My local hikes here always go up beyond treeline, and there would not be good points to hang a hammock or tie a tarp, in lack of suitable trees and flat spots inbetween. There are no established campspots. Most times I'm glad that I find a suitable flat spot at all.
And, during the summer hiking season there is some kind of precipitation almost every night, in the mountains.
So I carry a tent, and am happy with it. Can't imagine I'd be more happy with a tarp.
Sometimes I do special purpose overnighters in our local mountains, like, listen to the elk in the rutting season, or watching a special moon or sunrise.
When I can be sure about the weather, I'd simply cowboy camp and deal with the heavy dew or frost the next morning. Might take an hour of sunshine to dry the soaked bag. You can't do this on multiday hikes.
So I belive to just take and use what makes the most sense for the given event.
coach lou
10-05-2017, 08:48
40493.....................:sun
garlic08
10-05-2017, 09:07
Simple answer for me--I sleep better in a tent, even the single-wall Tarptent I've been using for a decade and a half.
evyck da fleet
10-05-2017, 09:34
Not brainwashed...
I thought about buying a hammock after hiking the AT but realized most of my trips involve camping above tree line or on a beach. Combined with the reasons stated by others previously, a tent is the best choice for me. Here's to independent thinking.
Uncle Joe
10-05-2017, 10:20
I hammock most of the time. I bought a tent for hiking out west and car-camping. I carried it on my last section and really missed my hammock primarily due to the lack of level ground. I wanted to see if I slept better in the tent. That was hard to quantify as I slept on a slope both nights, though the second night was only slight. There are pros and cons to both. I like a tent because I can pull some gear into the tent and have a place to put things. I like a hammock because you're off the ground.
Alligator
10-05-2017, 10:33
My tarp tent is lighter than a tarp+bug bivvy or a tarp+bug net inner as it only has the little bit of bug netting that it needs.
....Maybe. My slightly over 10x10 tarp (8.6 oz) and drape down, single hanging point mosquito netting (4 oz) weighs 12.6 oz. My ground cloth is 3 oz. One ounce of line. That's 16.6 oz.
I don't get wet from rain while I am sleeping. Nice thing about a tarp when it is raining is you can walk in and out without worrying about getting the floor wet.
Mostly need the mosquito netting in the summer. Rest of the time it is not needed. Can't say you won't get a daddy-long legs running over you now and then. They're just eating the other bugs, think of them as your protectors.
MuddyWaters
10-05-2017, 10:38
Yup
My tarp + bug bivy = 13.5 oz
Kinda hard to beat
I prefer to cowboy camp and will do so if there isn't a bug problem and its not going to rain. But if its raining or buggy I definitely want a tent. Tarp is OK in fall/winter/spring if the bugs aren't out. Different tools for different situations. For car camping I want a large tent with almost vertical walls tall enough to stand up in. I want to feel like I'm sitting in my living room when I'm in there. On a rainy day, that is exactly what I'm doing.
I was forced to "cowboy camp" an entire year in VietNam in the worst conditions imaginable and consider a nice three season tent pure luxury. That coupled with a NeoAir pad and a fluffy down bag and I'm in Heaven, never discount the importance of a genuinely good nights sleep on the Trail to make the hike more pleasant, that's what it's all about imo.
When we look at pictures of backpackers camps, tents seem to be a dominant theme, we rarely see tarps or open camping (no shelter).
Do we equate backpacking with tents because it is profitable for tent manufacturers?
Is our obsession with tents being central to backpacking kinda like the use of prescription drugs by doctors instead of also considering alternatives from physical therapy, to behavior changes, to nutrition to herbal alternative or whatever?
Like traditional American medicine tents can be highly effective and easy to use, but, they are often not the best choice and they are rarely the most affordable or the only alternative to solving the problem at hand.
The abundance and our overdependence on prescription drugs is driven largely by the opportunity for profits for large pharmaceutical firms. They make the drugs that solve some of our problems and then they promote them heavily to doctors and patients alike so they are the first if not the only solution we migrate toward to fix a problem, even if they are not the best option available.
Don't get me wrong, tents can be great especially during the depths of a bad bug season or when camping above treeline in the mountains in the winter. But, as one of the first pieces of equipment people buy? Backpacking any of the great long-distance backpacking trails in North America doesn't require a tent. It would be so much more rewarding for people to spend limited cash on a better backpack and better sleep system than an expensive, necessary shelter.
As brought up in another thread about tents:
Is there anyone out there that has used a tarp extensively in the past and now chooses to use a tent almost exclusively?
If so, why the change?
Also, who all has switched from dominantly tenting to dominantly tarping? Why?
This is one of the more interesting discussions I have seen on here lately. My path has been from tarps to tents to hammocks with some back and forth thrown in.There are many aspects to think about regarding the tent vs. tarp vs. hammock choice. I think a poll might reveal that many backpackers are not using just one shelter system. I have all three and pick one for any particular trip based on an ever evolving set of personal criteria. Personally, I really like to sleep in the open as much as possible. So, currently, a hammock without bug netting is my first choice. I do not use the tarp over it unless necessary. Even when I do use the tarp I like to use poles to hold the sides of the tarp up to give me an unrestricted view of the forest around me. When I do go to a tent I find that I like to use a tent with two vestibules so I can tie back the fly on both sides to give me that sense of being out in the open as much as possible. I have noticed that most other backpackers I have been out with seem to like the cocoon of privacy/security? that a tent with full fly provides. With few exceptions they always use the fly and fully close their vestibules at night. I have seen only a couple instances of fellow backpackers using the tent body only or cowboy camping. Overall I think the prevalence of tents is due to a combination of privacy/security and the fact that tents are what most people are more familiar with and they probably also have the easier learning curve for new backpackers.
As far as marketing hype goes. I think it is a fact that with a few exceptions anyone who backpacks can use a tent but not all can use a tarp or hammock so there are more people buying tents.
Another Kevin
10-05-2017, 11:41
I have a tarp. I use it sometimes.
My TarpTent Notch is pretty darned light; going to tarp + bug net saves about half a pound. (Tarp + bug net + footprint + line add up to a little over a pound, the Notch is 27 oz if memory serves).
I've seen Coach Lou's and cmoulder's setups - in fact, last winter there was one night that I pitched right between them. They work for Coach Lou and cmoulder.
I like how setup is a no-brainer, and how it adapts to pretty much all the conditions that I hike in, snow, wet, bugs, wind (I have the half-solid inside panels), etc. Throw it in the pack, and I'm good to go.
I think it's telling that I own a lighter-weight shelter and use it less often.
One of these days I'll try hanging. (Aside to Just Bill - I've only done a couple of backpacks in the last year or so, it's been crazy out. I know I owe you stuff.) That's primarily to broaden the range of campsites, because some of my hiking is in places where unobstructed ground, even the size of a Notch, is very, very hard to find.
swjohnsey
10-05-2017, 11:47
Man, I love tarps in a blowin' rainstorm. They keep out the bugs, too!
Alligator
10-05-2017, 12:32
Man, I love tarps in a blowin' rainstorm. They keep out the bugs, too!Not everyone has the skill and experience to properly set up a tarp. That's what tents are for.
Alligator
10-05-2017, 12:38
Not everyone has the skill and experience to properly set up a tarp. That's what tents are for.Hammocks are for people who like to show off. "Look at me, I'm sleeping in the air."
OK buddy come back to earth with the rest of us mere mortals.
Another Kevin
10-05-2017, 13:02
Not everyone has the skill and experience to properly set up a tarp. That's what tents are for.
Guilty as charged. Why do you think my moniker is "Clueless Weekender?"
Tipi Walter
10-05-2017, 13:52
Hammock camping is just Tarp camping with a suspended bivy bag.
Hammock camping is just Tarp camping with a suspended bivy bag.
True. And for most, significantly more comfortable than an on-the-ground bivy.
A few years ago I started a thread asking everyone to convince me into buying a tarp. I really wanted to go down that route, but i had a lot of questions and misgivings.There was much discussion of pros and cons, and ultimately went with a Tarp Tent Notch. Unfortunately, if I am a victim of addiction and brainwashing, it would be impossible for me to recognize or for anyone to convince me to change. At least I'm not a member of a cult, like the hammockers.
Hey it’s a great cult. We have Kool-Aide.
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I looked Long and hard into Tarp renting but with the big collection here in Florida and the wet ground. We went the Hammock route.
But with lightweight tents, although pricey, I can get a 3-person tent at 24 oz. sharing weight with my wife we’ve found a tent can be lighter (when sharing the weight).
But if I lived and hiked mainly out west I would mostly like use a Tarp exclusively.
Our weeklong trip in Utah only reenforced this idea.
Your mileage may vary.
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MuddyWaters
10-05-2017, 14:48
Not everyone has the skill and experience to properly set up a tarp. That's what tents are for.
Not everyone has even idea of how to select place to put tent. I met a few that pitched in low spots, and woke up wet
Wont happen many times before catch on though.
With a tarp, you notice you need to move a wee bit sooner. Ive had to do so even though i thought i had a good spot
I looked Long and hard into Tarp tenting but with the bug collection here in Florida and the wet ground. We went the Hammock route.
But with lightweight tents, although pricey, I can get a 3-person tent at 24 oz. sharing weight with my wife we’ve found a tent can be lighter (when sharing the weight).
But if I lived and hiked mainly out west I would mostly like use a Tarp exclusively.
Our weeklong trip in Utah only reenforced this idea.
Your mileage may vary.
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Typos. From my fat short fingers.
I camp mostly in the SE and use a tent in all but the coldest, driest weather because bugs.
fluffkitten
10-05-2017, 15:16
When I was still living in Australia I rarely used a tent, mostly I used a small tarp (1980s Big W tent fly) which is likely why I ended up with Ross River Fever. Since I moved to the UK I mostly use a tent because everywhere I go seems plagued with midges or its tipping down with wind driven rain.
PatmanTN
10-05-2017, 15:56
Like others I use all kinds of shelters. I'd like to say it's based on conditions but honestly it's more based on whim. Tarps are fun to play with. I recently experimented with making a "box" from a 12x10 flat tarp that has many guyouts:
40498
rmitchell
10-05-2017, 16:24
So, Patman is that large scale origami? ��
PatmanTN
10-05-2017, 16:48
yes exactly! I had started that out as a high A frame and was getting some spray so I started messing with it and wound up with that. :)
PatmanTN
10-05-2017, 16:56
Another night on that same trip saw this variation:
https://photos.smugmug.com/2017/Sept-1-3-Sterling-Inadu-Loop/i-x5jk3jS/0/ef67ffbf/X2/DSCN2617-X2.jpg
PatmanTN
10-05-2017, 17:00
Shaped tarps are cool too and quite usable even in the winter:
https://photos.smugmug.com/2014/Oct-31-Nov-1/i-cJ59544/0/31aa30bb/X2/Smokies%20Snow%20trip%20fall%2014%20024-X2.jpg
Cool pics
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saltysack
10-05-2017, 20:27
I assume a cuben duomid is a good go between but 15oz ain’t the lightest. I’ve had in a few wind driven down pours that lasted the entire night and stayed dry besides a lil misting. I did buy a bivi which I like but will probably buy a lighter tarp to pair it with for solo trips without the pup.
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for me, I just relax a bit better knowing I have a bug free zone. No worries about slugs or bugs or anything crawling in my bed with me in the night. Better sleep.
When i was a kid I slept in those old floorless canvas pup tents, no problem. I may have even cowboy camped a time or two, don't remember for sure....
but I think it also depends greatly on geography, climate, and season.... much more palatable when dry and bug free....
I have been strongly tempted lately to get a nice tarp and bug bivy set-up but I'm not going places where/when that would be a nice enough option for it to make sense....
theinfamousj
10-05-2017, 21:16
Maybe. My slightly over 10x10 tarp (8.6 oz) and drape down, single hanging point mosquito netting (4 oz) weighs 12.6 oz. My ground cloth is 3 oz. One ounce of line. That's 16.6 oz.
My tarp tent weighs 16 oz on the nose. So...
Yup
My tarp + bug bivy = 13.5 oz
Kinda hard to beat
Yours might have mine beat. Are you including suspension and stakes in this figure?
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MuddyWaters
10-05-2017, 21:22
My tarp tent weighs 16 oz on the nose. So...
Yours might have mine beat. Are you including suspension and stakes in this figure?
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whats suspension? stakes are 1.9 more oz includes guylines, they are part of tarp
40500
theinfamousj
10-05-2017, 21:23
whats suspension? stakes are 1.9 more ozCord. Rope. The stuff that goes between the tarp and the stake or other tie down point.
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Alligator
10-05-2017, 21:34
My tarp tent weighs 16 oz on the nose. So...
Yours might have mine beat. Are you including suspension and stakes in this figure?
Sent from my SGH-I337 using TapatalkWhat are you including in yours? What model please?
theinfamousj
10-05-2017, 21:36
What are you including in yours? What model please?The original Gossamer Gear The One (non cuben, some random other sail cloth). Includes tarp tent with floor and bug netting and all the bits and bobs including the guy lines. Not including stakes.
So it would be equivalent to a tarp and some sort of ground cloth and bug netting and suspension/strings/guy lines.
It would not include hiking poles (both need them) or stakes.
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theinfamousj
10-05-2017, 21:39
I don't know what Gossamer Gear has done since my The One, but after producing only a few of them it quickly went discontinued and then they came back with some other materials and did different, and by all accounts, worse things with subsequent versions.
Also, my The One cost many arms and a few legs. But it is also still water tight and light and I did weigh it on a postal scale.
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Tents just work. Almost any brand, these days. That's been the case for a long time -- forty, fifty years now -- what with nylon walls, fiberglass or aluminum poles, and clever fittings and geometry, bathtub floors, double walls for ventilation, etc.
Tarps may save some weight, but tents have floors and bug netting which many of us consider necessary.
Tarp setup may require creativity and ingenuity, whereas tent setup takes very little.
What with Silnylon and Cuben fiber, a decent solo backpacking tent needn't weigh more than 1.5 to two pounds. My 1990 Eureka Solitaire was 3 lbs. My 2007 Tarptent Rainbow is 2 lbs. All-up, including the stuff sack, cordage, stakes.
MuddyWaters
10-05-2017, 21:46
I don't know what Gossamer Gear has done since my The One, but after producing only a few of them it quickly went discontinued and then they came back with some other materials and did different, and by all accounts, worse things with subsequent versions.
Also, my The One cost many arms and a few legs. But it is also still water tight and light and I did weigh it on a postal scale.
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I had a The One, sold it 2 yrs ago. Great tent. Some fiddlyness at setup, rear pole wasnt real stable. They tried to fix these things with improved design, but the bottom line is they couldnt get the spinnaker anymore is why it was discontinued. For several years they promised a cuben version....didnt produce...Zpacks took over the industry left them no niche to produce a cuben tent.
rocketsocks
10-05-2017, 21:48
Not everyone has the mental capacity to erect a tent :D
Tipi Walter
10-05-2017, 21:54
I still cowboy camp on occasion, in fact pulled one after a long trip on a shuttle back to a friend's backyard when I did a Pisgah trip in 2016.
40501
2016 yard camp near Asheville.
Cowboy camping is great if you're lazy like I am but it has many drawbacks, the main one being a sudden out of nowhere 2am rainstorm.
One time I found an excellent level spot under a thick rhododendron forest-grove and plopped down my bedroll and got to sleep under a crystal clear North Carolina night sky. I was so deep inside the rhodo grove that when the inevitable rainstorm hit at 2am I was in a world of hurt since I had to crawl out dragging all my gear and rush to find a level spot for my tarp. "Crawl" is the operative word. With a minimag flashlight in my mouth.
Sarcasm the elf
10-05-2017, 21:57
Not everyone has the mental capacity to set up a tent :D
Fixed that for you :p
Alligator
10-05-2017, 21:58
Not everyone has the mental capacity to erect a tent :DEven with the color coded poles they're tough. I've got a tent with two poles like that. Still takes me 10 minutes. That's why I got a square tarp. One time I even set that up upside down.
Alligator
10-05-2017, 22:14
The original Gossamer Gear The One (non cuben, some random other sail cloth). Includes tarp tent with floor and bug netting and all the bits and bobs including the guy lines. Not including stakes.
So it would be equivalent to a tarp and some sort of ground cloth and bug netting and suspension/strings/guy lines.
It would not include hiking poles (both need them) or stakes.
Sent from my SGH-I337 using TapatalkYeah but mine isn't the lightest a tarp can go. I had an 8 x 10 for a long time. I made this one I think it's 10' 4" square (cause I'm challenged). A person could loose an ounce or two with a size reduction and not sacrifice any rain coverage. A polycro groundsheet is about 1.6 oz but that I wouldn't do that crinkling noise would be what keeps me up. Half the time I don't need the bug net it stays home.
A tarptent is a nice option though. I'd get one if I knew I was going to be somewhere really buggy for more than a week.
DuneElliot
10-05-2017, 22:15
My shelter of choice depends on the area and conditions:
High alpine or low chance of good trees, no bugs: Duplex or tarp (dog dependent)
High alpine or low chance of good trees, lots of bugs: Duplex
Lots of trees and bugs: Hammock and bug net
Lots of trees no bugs: Hammock, no bug net
No trees and no bugs: Tarp
MuddyWaters
10-05-2017, 22:22
Not everyone has the mental capacity to erect a tent :D
To heck with setting it up
Im an engineer
I tried one ...that no foolin...i could not get back in stuffsack.
Bit of a deal breaker
Shock corded poles with bends in them, only fit one way. I couldnt figure it out. Too frickin complicated. Putting tent in sack needs to be easy....
StubbleJumper
10-05-2017, 22:23
I have a TarpTent Contrail and a hammock, both of which I have used for years. I have also cowboy camped and I've spend many nights in a lean-to.
For me, when I leave on a long hike, I plan to take gear that will address the broad range of conditions that I might face. So, you bring clothes that you can layer, you bring sunscreen and a wide brimmed hat on some trails, and you bring rain gear. It's a rare day that you need all of your gear, but safety (and comfort) demands that you bring it with you even though you know you won't necessarily use it all every day.
A tent is a bit like that. On a long trail you'll get some days that are dry enough to cowboy, you'll get some rain, and in some neighbourhoods you'll get mosquitoes and black flies. My TarpTent Contrail is flexible enough to use for all of those conditions. It's got mosquito netting which is essential in the north in May and June, and it does a passable job of keeping the rain out. On dry days, I've used it as a groundsheet for a cowboy camp. It's 26 oz, it cost me something like $250 and I know that it'll cover any conditions that I could reasonably expect from May to October. I could certainly buy a tarp to use in September once the mosquitoes have thinned out, but why would I screw around with another shelter just for autumn hiking?
MuddyWaters
10-05-2017, 23:44
A tent is a bit like that. On a long trail you'll get some days that are dry enough to cowboy, you'll get some rain, and in some neighbourhoods you'll get mosquitoes and black flies. My TarpTent Contrail is flexible enough to use for all of those conditions. It's got mosquito netting which is essential in the north in May and June, and it does a passable job of keeping the rain out. On dry days, I've used it as a groundsheet for a cowboy camp. It's 26 oz, it cost me something like $250 and I know that it'll cover any conditions that I could reasonably expect from May to October. I could certainly buy a tarp to use in September once the mosquitoes have thinned out, but why would I screw around with another shelter just for autumn hiking?
Reasons i migrated to shaped tarp/inner combo:
- tarp pitch first in rain, keep inner dry
- use tarp during day to wait out squalls. No floor to muddy up. This is big one
- can use with inner, bug bivy, or just groundsheet depending
- bivy and inner good for use alone in shelters to keep mice away, as groundsheet, or outside on clear night.
- take down tarp last in rain, stow in outside mesh pocket of pack
- fairly light option. Not a lot lighter. Very versatile too.
Downsides...cramped. not easiest setup with clipped inner.
rocketsocks
10-06-2017, 00:07
Even with the color coded poles they're tough. I've got a tent with two poles like that. Still takes me 10 minutes. That's why I got a square tarp. One time I even set that up upside down.Im lucky to pitch a tarp these days :D
rocketsocks
10-06-2017, 00:10
To heck with setting it up
Im an engineer
I tried one ...that no foolin...i could not get back in stuffsack.
Bit of a deal breaker
Shock corded poles with bends in them, only fit one way. I couldnt figure it out. Too frickin complicated. Putting tent in sack needs to be easy....First thing I do whenever I get something that comes with a stuff sack...toss it aside and buy a bigger one.
rocketsocks
10-06-2017, 00:12
Fixed that for you :pThanks Elf, I can always count on you to straighten me out. :D
To heck with setting it up
Im an engineer
I tried one ...that no foolin...i could not get back in stuffsack.
Bit of a deal breaker
Shock corded poles with bends in them, only fit one way. I couldnt figure it out. Too frickin complicated. Putting tent in sack needs to be easy....
Ha ha, yeah.....I gave my son a rather large duffle bag for his Alps 3-man tent he uses for camping with his scout troop. Fits in nice and loose..... They always car camp loading the gear into a covered utility trailer so size and weight doesn't matter.....
After reading this entire discussion....it just dawned on me..... I own a tarp.....well of course I have blue utility tarps, but I mean a nice-ish camping tarp.
A Kelty noah 9x9
I just never thought of it as a sleeping shelter. I have rarely used it. Used the similar Moss tarp it replaced a few more times till it got sticky on me.... Bought and used as more of a personal dining fly/front porch or once as a rainfly over my tent's rainfly on a really wet scout camping trip....
Anyway, I don't think I've ever seen mention of a Noah Tarp here. I wonder why.... a bit heavy I suppose
Hey maybe I should get a bug nest and try that out!!!
cmoulder
10-06-2017, 07:24
27 oz is heavy for a 9x9 tarp
Cheap for car camping, tho
Seatbelt
10-06-2017, 07:33
I've always thought that rocky terrain would be a reason to not carry a tarp or maybe even a non-freestanding tent. I have an old Walrus tent that I have used a few times but when in extremely rocky terrain (like PA) I had a hard time trying to set it up. At the end of a long hard backpacking day, the last thing I want is extra(more than usual) tent setup problems. How do you guys with tarps handle this, just curious?
cmoulder
10-06-2017, 07:53
With a flat tarp (or cat cut tarp, to a large extent), even on rocky terrain you only need a space big enough to lie down, and then tie off guy lines to whatever is available.
It's a little more difficult with a shaped tarp such as a ZP hexamid. I did a really crappy looking pitch once in the Catskills between Cornell and Slide Mtn, leaving the 'nice' spots for my mates with tents. I was tied off to a couple of stakes, some bushes, and a log and a few rocks. Took a while to figure that one out, but in the end it was very comfortable although totally unnecessary because it ended up not raining. But with an iffy weather forecast I sleep better knowing it's already up. Wouldn't want to figure out that pitch at 2am while it's raining.
Time Zone
10-06-2017, 08:29
After reading this entire discussion....it just dawned on me..... I own a tarp.....well of course I have blue utility tarps, but I mean a nice-ish camping tarp.
A Kelty noah 9x9
I just never thought of it as a sleeping shelter. I have rarely used it. Used the similar Moss tarp it replaced a few more times till it got sticky on me.... Bought and used as more of a personal dining fly/front porch or once as a rainfly over my tent's rainfly on a really wet scout camping trip....
Anyway, I don't think I've ever seen mention of a Noah Tarp here. I wonder why.... a bit heavy I suppose
Yeah, probably so. They're not quite the Coleman Sundome of the tarp world, but it's a bit like that, I suspect.
I have a Noah 9 and a 12. The 9 is good for hammock camping. It's not light, true, but it's inexpensive and versatile (lots of tie-outs; quieter than a blue tarp; and "light enough" for anyone not focused on going UL). The 12 is good when you have to cover 2 hammocks, or want "doors" on an A-frame hammock tarp setup, or just an A-frame with a bivy.
If you want a tarp and feel PU coated polyester is too heavy, pay double and halve your weight with silnylon. There are other performance differences (stretch, perhaps misting), but that's the main difference - price vs. weight.
Time Zone
10-06-2017, 08:34
I've always thought that rocky terrain would be a reason to not carry a tarp or maybe even a non-freestanding tent. I have an old Walrus tent that I have used a few times but when in extremely rocky terrain (like PA) I had a hard time trying to set it up. At the end of a long hard backpacking day, the last thing I want is extra(more than usual) tent setup problems. How do you guys with tarps handle this, just curious?
Seems to me that rocky terrain is an area where hammock + tarp would shine, so long as there were trees. Among ground-dwelling options in rocky terrain, well, you're more likely to find sufficient flat/smooth ground for a tent with a smaller footprint than a larger one, all else being equal. Not sure there's more to it than that.
StubbleJumper
10-06-2017, 08:46
I've always thought that rocky terrain would be a reason to not carry a tarp or maybe even a non-freestanding tent. I have an old Walrus tent that I have used a few times but when in extremely rocky terrain (like PA) I had a hard time trying to set it up. At the end of a long hard backpacking day, the last thing I want is extra(more than usual) tent setup problems. How do you guys with tarps handle this, just curious?
For me, that falls under the category of "site selection". A rocky site sucks when you are setting up your shelter and it sucks when you wake up at 2am to take a piss, and it sucks when you are trying to sit around camp to make supper. The solution is to keep hiking until you find a better site. Seriously, keep slogging for another mile and it's likely that an appropriate, less rocky site will eventually show up.
It's really just a specific case of the general problem of finding a decent campsite. If you are hammocking, you need to find a couple of appropriate trees without a bunch of brush between them. If you are tenting you want a bit of flattish ground. Irrespective of your preferred shelter type, in most cases, you want exposure to a breeze, but protection against heavy winds. Sometimes a primo camp site pops up magically at the end of the day, and other times you need to walk another quarter or half mile. And sometimes, you just end up sucking it up, and camping at a crappy location.
Seatbelt
10-06-2017, 09:03
It's really just a specific case of the general problem of finding a decent campsite. And sometimes, you just end up sucking it up, and camping at a crappy location.
This is what I was referring to. I have done what you suggest only to find even worse locations than I previously passed up. I would love to go lighter than a tent but I have hiked in some places that I am not smart enough to figure a good way to set up a tarp. I talked to a well-known thru-hiker recently who told me he thru'd with a tarp/bivy. When I asked him about this he said sometimes he just wrapped up and slept on the ground, he said he got wet about 20% of the time. I'm wondering if this is the norm for you tarp guys or ??
nsherry61
10-06-2017, 15:58
It's great to read about the various solutions, preconceptions, and priorities that everyone has. Thanks!
. . . Is there anyone out there that has used a tarp extensively in the past and now chooses to use a tent almost exclusively?
If so, why the change?
Also, who all has switched from dominantly tenting to dominantly tarping? Why?
To answer my own question:
I started off using tarps because that's what I grew up with.
As I became a "wealthy" teenager and started doing more mountaineering, I made a two person tent from a Frostline Kit which I used with pride mostly because I had it and also because I was proud of having it, and sometimes, because it was really the most appropriate option.
For what it's worth, my 19 year son and his girl friend still use that old, heavily used Frostline Kit tent (probably made about 1978?).
Then being married and having kids . . . well tenting makes my wife more comfortable because of increased privacy, heat retention and bug protection. I currently own four tents.
I vastly prefer the aesthetic of sleeping under a tarp or cowboy camping and rarely use a tent when going solo regardless of the season or weather forcast. But, when traveling with others that prefer tents, I use them.
I would argue that fear of crawly things and wet weather are perceived disadvantages of using tarps, but don't really pan out as an issue in practice. And, with a little practice, many tarp pitches are much easier to put up than most any tent. My favorite fair-weather pitch takes less than a minute, one guy line, and three stakes.
My goal of this threat was to explore what people choose and what the real vs. perceived advantages and disadvantages of a wide variety of sleep shelters are.
Tipi Walter
10-06-2017, 17:00
Back in 1981-82 and then in 1986 I used a series of tarps on my backpacking trips and while light and quick to set up, I found myself in too many compromising conditions in the middle of nowhere and in the middle of stormy nights to rely solely on them for shelter.
If you stay out alot or thruout the year as I was doing at the time, I found I needed something that worked in all conditions: Blizzards, spindrift, high winds, horizontal rainstorms with high winds, severe cold (like -10F), deluges with moving ground water---and the usual noseeums and mosquitoes and bugs.
I remember all the times I set up camp on ridges and got swamped in deluge-flood rainstorms where I had to place everything on top of my sleeping pad and squat there until the sheeting ground water subsided---because it was coming inside my floorless tarp. And site selection will not solve this problem as occasionally here in the Southeast we get real gully washers.
And tremendous windstorms!!! Add a blizzard with blowing snow and I always woke up every morning covered in 8-10 inches of blown in snow---spindrift. And since I backpacked to many open balds, it was an all-night affair to hold my tarp down to the ground in 60mph windstorms---and even higher gusts. No matter how close you get a tarp to the ground, if the wind is strong enough it will billow out and want to take flight like an umbrella.
And it's not just a winter problem---the worst windstorms were in the summer on mountaintops in thunderstorms and micro-bursts.
Riocielo
10-06-2017, 20:30
How about privacy? Guess I'm brainwashed because I don't see the purpose of this discussion. I loved getting in my tent at the end of the day during my thru hike. It was my signal that I was done being sociable. Having a tent gave me security from the elements and wildlife. And before anybody tells me that it isn't secure from bears, fine, I know. Guess it goes back to the privacy and a psychological barrier. Would I have felt the same about my tent if I was on a much shorter hike? Maybe not but why can't I keep and use my tent for those trips too? Why do I have to use a tarp or cowboy camp? Does it make me less of a man?
KDogg, I agree. After a day of walking, eating and peeing out in the open, crawling in a tent at night is a nice bit of psychological privacy.
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Tipi Walter
10-06-2017, 20:39
KDogg, I agree. After a day of walking, eating and peeing out in the open, crawling in a tent at night is a nice bit of psychological privacy.
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Love the tent life.
Lone Wolf
10-06-2017, 20:41
'bout like bein' brainwashed into using these puters/devices
Alligator
10-06-2017, 21:01
This is what I was referring to. I have done what you suggest only to find even worse locations than I previously passed up. I would love to go lighter than a tent but I have hiked in some places that I am not smart enough to figure a good way to set up a tarp. I talked to a well-known thru-hiker recently who told me he thru'd with a tarp/bivy. When I asked him about this he said sometimes he just wrapped up and slept on the ground, he said he got wet about 20% of the time. I'm wondering if this is the norm for you tarp guys or ??Absolutely not, I've never rolled up in my tarp. After the first trip where I used a cheap tarp to try it out, I ended up buying a silnylon one. It wasn't cheap and I wouldn't want to risk any holes in it from rocks. Forget even considering it for my cuben tarp, it's just ridiculously expensive material.
For a long time I had a tent mentality when pitching the tarp. If a rock was sticking up I'd reject the site. Then I saw a picture where somebody had pitched the tarp over a rock but still had sleeping space:datz.
One issue though is that because I made it larger, sometimes it's hard to get it pitched low with bushes and branches hitting it. Sometimes I look for a bigger footprint for it so I am not worried about it getting whipped or blown into something pointy. If ever see pictures where the tarp is pitched taut all nice and the poles are just right and everything looks neat? Yeah that not's me. I tie off wherever just as long as I am not going to get wet. It's embarrassing sometimes but hey in there and I'm not what I don't care what it looks like.
cmoulder
10-07-2017, 11:14
It's embarrassing sometimes but hey in there and I'm not what I don't care what it looks like.
That's what I told my friends — hey, don't laugh, I left you the nice spots! :o
MuddyWaters
10-07-2017, 11:16
For a long time I had a tent mentality when pitching the tarp. If a rock was sticking up I'd reject the site. Then I saw a picture where somebody had pitched the tarp over a rock but still had sleeping space:datz.
.
Ive had rocks and small bushes inside my tarp with me.... Usually because its starting to pour and Im trying to pitch NOW on a high spot.
I used a tarp in '99 for 600 miles - never again. I've been using a Six Moon Designs Lunar Solo since then and I have a Big Agnes something-or-other on layaway for shorter trips.
Tipi Walter
10-09-2017, 10:04
Reasons i migrated to shaped tarp/inner combo:
- use tarp during day to wait out squalls. No floor to muddy up. This is big one
I do the same thing with my tent's ground sheet---When I'm backpacking up a trail and get caught in a serious downpour---I dump the pack and pull out my tarp-ground sheet and cover the pack with me squatting underneath. In this way I can sit out a deluge. And it's easy to roll up the ground cloth and keep moving.
nsherry61
10-09-2017, 10:35
I do the same thing with my tent's ground sheet---When I'm backpacking up a trail and get caught in a serious downpour---I dump the pack and pull out my tarp-ground sheet and cover the pack with me squatting underneath. In this way I can sit out a deluge. And it's easy to roll up the ground cloth and keep moving.
And, one of the reasons I love a poncho as my raingear is for this very reason - just no additional tarp needed. I love the fact there there are so many ways to satisfactorily solve similar problems with different people using different gear meeting their different preferences.
rocketsocks
10-09-2017, 11:38
A string of garland and some battery operated lights can turn a small tree in your campsite to a nice place to live, if only for a night. Total weigh-6 oz.
AllDownhillFromHere
10-09-2017, 12:34
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines
clusterone
10-09-2017, 13:29
I am all about sleeping on the ground, ideally uncovered with a view of the heavens. Spiders, and other crawlers seem to stay away. That being said...had a timber-back rattlesnake come slithering through camp (Citico Creek) one night. The thought of what if it had decided to cuddle up with me still lingers in my head. This was about 11pm. I am sure it would not intentionally bite me, but what if I rolled over on top it?!?! We have all heard of the snake crawling into someones sleeping bag, but I could find zero confirmed reports of this happening (maybe more likely to happen out west?).
I prefer a tent for overnight, because it provides a dry, warm place for me and my gear.
On occasion when the weather was just right I've cowboyed. Also tried a hammock once at Trail Days and tried a tarp on multiple nights. Cowboying was OK under certain conditions which you can't depend on. Can't sleep in a hammock, because I toss and turn too much! Tarps are just marginally better than cowboying -- at least for me. So I'm sticking with a tent. Mine weighs about 3#, and sets up quickly. If I wanted to spend some more $$$ I could likely reduce that by a # but I'd still be in a tent with a door and a floor!
I do carry a 6-oz. 4.5 x 7.5 tarp that travels in an easy accessible side pocket in my pack. It's been a great accessory to crawl under, with my pack, to wait out a real downpour. But it wouldn't work overnight for me.
Tipi Walter
10-09-2017, 14:03
I am all about sleeping on the ground, ideally uncovered with a view of the heavens. Spiders, and other crawlers seem to stay away. That being said...had a timber-back rattlesnake come slithering through camp (Citico Creek) one night. The thought of what if it had decided to cuddle up with me still lingers in my head. This was about 11pm. I am sure it would not intentionally bite me, but what if I rolled over on top it?!?! We have all heard of the snake crawling into someones sleeping bag, but I could find zero confirmed reports of this happening (maybe more likely to happen out west?).
Were you car camping on Citico Creek or were you backpacking in the Citico wilderness?
I had a snake come into my tent vestibule last summer and one time had a copperhead coiled up at the tent door around midnight after leaving the campfire.
nsherry61
10-09-2017, 14:12
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines
To quote part of your link:
"The reason why journalists use that style of headline is that they know the story is probably bull****, and don’t actually have the sources and facts to back it up, but still want to run it."
Yeah, kinda, but then simple answers to complex questions are often just kinda true. Kinda bull****, but also probably with some real truth behind at least part of it for some people. Maybe the question is still worth thinking about and thinking through a bit for many of us. I've certainly enjoyed many of the diverse comments and insights in this thread. In the end, I hope the thread raises questions in at least some peoples minds that then open them up to a more diverse array of rewarding outdoor experiences.
This thread has reminded me that there are many people, that love being outdoors, for whom minimizing perceived risk is important to them being able to enjoy themselves. Others of us love the thrill of more managed risk and a wilder outdoor experience. I don't think either is "the right way".
Tipi Walter
10-09-2017, 14:33
This thread has reminded me that there are many people, that love being outdoors, for whom minimizing perceived risk is important to them being able to enjoy themselves. Others of us love the thrill of more managed risk and a wilder outdoor experience. I don't think either is "the right way".
I've carried all sorts of gear and definitely gear to make my life more comfortable but it's incorrect to say such "unminimal" overkill gear results in a less wild experience. You can be snake bit with 80 lbs on your pack, and certainly yellow jacket swarmed.
You can posthole up a mountain in 2 feet of snow and traverse a ridge in 3 feet of snow---no matter how much you minimize the perceived risk---and you'll still get a bellyful of a wilderness experience.
You can attempt to cross a raging creek with a $1,000 Hilleberg tent and still get sucked under. It all depends on how long you're out and in whatever terrible conditions you find yourself.
Occasionally I hear Tarpists say they get a "better outdoor experience" or "get closer to nature" than tent campers and I shake my head and laugh when I'm sitting in my tent caught in a series of 5 blizzards with 60mph wind gusts. I chuckle and say to myself, "Let them join me now and see how much more nature they can achieve."
What I didn't read here until now is, that a tent, if all doors closed, will add several degrees of warmth for sleeping.
Not sure if a tarp would add the same?
So, even if the tarp itself might be slightly lighter than a tent, you might be forced to add some additional insulation to the sleep system.
Which would render any weight advantage of a tarp over a tent irrelevant.
Regarding animals:
I'm doing a lot of cowboy camping, but the only animal I ever noticed to approach me was a mouse that hid in a tiny gap right under my pad in a frosty night.
But then, we don't have any dangerouse animals here, and in the desert I'm hiking in winter when ist too cold for snakes.
Puddlefish
10-09-2017, 15:05
To quote part of your link:
"The reason why journalists use that style of headline is that they know the story is probably bull****, and don’t actually have the sources and facts to back it up, but still want to run it."
Yeah, kinda, but then simple answers to complex questions are often just kinda true. Kinda bull****, but also probably with some real truth behind at least part of it for some people. Maybe the question is still worth thinking about and thinking through a bit for many of us. I've certainly enjoyed many of the diverse comments and insights in this thread. In the end, I hope the thread raises questions in at least some peoples minds that then open them up to a more diverse array of rewarding outdoor experiences.
This thread has reminded me that there are many people, that love being outdoors, for whom minimizing perceived risk is important to them being able to enjoy themselves. Others of us love the thrill of more managed risk and a wilder outdoor experience. I don't think either is "the right way".
This made me laugh. I too like to live dangerously, sometimes I do the crossword puzzle in pen. Seriously, my tarptent notch has a detachable interior. If I choose to leave part of it at home on a certain trip, I'd hardly consider it a riskier, wilder experience.
This thread has reminded me that there are many people, that love being outdoors, for whom minimizing perceived risk is important to them being able to enjoy themselves. Others of us love the thrill of more managed risk and a wilder outdoor experience. I don't think either is "the right way".
That's some grade-A smarm right there, even by Whiteblaze standards.
In your tarp, you're King of the Wild Frontier. That's so sweet.
cmoulder
10-09-2017, 16:01
I had a "wilder outdoor experience" under a tarp in the Pharaoh Wilderness in May... I was eaten alive right thru my bug bivy, with clothing soaked in permethrin and skin slathered with deet.
Don't think I'll be doing that again.
Tarps have their place but sometimes tents are a far better choice no matter how bad-ass minimalist you think you are.
nsherry61
10-09-2017, 17:12
. . . Occasionally I hear Tarpists say they get a "better outdoor experience" or "get closer to nature" than tent campers and I shake my head and laugh when I'm sitting in my tent caught in a series of 5 blizzards with 60mph wind gusts. I chuckle and say to myself, "Let them join me now and see how much more nature they can achieve."
Maybe to them, "Nature" is a 360 degree view with the smell of flowers and a light breeze blowing across their face at night. Maybe for them "5 blizzards with 60mph wind gusts" is not something they would ever try to experience and not a part of the "Nature" they are after. Are you closer to Nature getting hammered by a hurricane, sealed in a tent, or laying naked on the ground in an alpine meadow on a sunny afternoon. To each their own. I think your Tarpist friend is flawed to think one experience is intrinsically "better" than the other. I think your argument is flawed to imply that tents are better because they are more effective shelters in the most extreme situations that most of the readers on this board will never be in or plan on being in.
. . . Tarps have their place but sometimes tents are a far better choice no matter how bad-ass minimalist you think you are.
Tipi, If I were planning on going on a two week long winter trip in an area without significant topographic or floral protection from storms, I'd take a tent. Even if I didn't have to, it would make my life more pleasant and my time in the outdoors more enjoyable. It would also be less wild than attempting the same thing with a tarp. And, there are some people that would love attempting to do the same thing with a tarp as their shelter, maybe increasing the risk of an early emergency exit. And yes, doing that same thing under a tarp is, in my opinion wilder than doing it in a tent. But hey, wilder isn't always better.
The point here is that one is not better than the other. But, either one may be better for one particular person than another.
I love the aesthetic of sleeping under a tarp, especially in a storm. It just makes me feel good and feel closer to the world around me. But, if the storm is bad enough that I cannot get sleep because of fear that my pitch won't hold, then I am better off in a tent (assuming it is an adequate tent pitched adequately).
The point of this thread being that there are many fantastic options for shelter when we are backpacking, and I believe that people are often overly focused on tents instead of other great alternatives that, some times, for some people, are well worth considering.
Tipi Walter
10-09-2017, 18:11
For those interested in minimalist tarp living in tough conditions, read Dzjow's blog---
https://dzjow.com/2011/06/08/tarping-with-the-grace-solo-spinntex-97/
He's honest about what happens inside a small tarp during terrible weather. Here's one quote---
"The really arduous situation where it becomes awkward with such a small tarp is under a heavy rain shower or thunderstorm. Rain splash will inevitably jump under the tarp wetting everything as will be the case with hail stones. Moreover, thunderstorms in the mountains are often companied with severe wind gusts which can blow from any direction, making it even more difficult to stay dry under the tarp and augmenting the risk of pulling out the stakes blowing the tarp away."
we are brainwashed into living in houses instead of tents
ggreaves
10-09-2017, 20:05
I use a tarp almost exclusively, but I always string it between 2 trees and sleep off the ground in a hammock.
Benefits....
1. No condensation
2. You'll never get wet - the tarp hangs lower than the bottom of the hammock. I've yet to even have my boots get wet being placed under the hammock
3. No bugs - hammock has a no-see-um net
4. Your stuff won't get wet (hang pack from hammock end under the tarp
5. You always sleep in the same position - fully supported every night - no slopes or roots. Sleep is restorative every time.
6. Wanna cowboy camp? Just flip one side of the tarp open and use the stakes on the other side. You'll be ready to deploy quickly again if the weather changes.
7. Need to go to ground? - your hammock tarp works great between 2 trekking poles as well.
8. Tarp provides more than enough privacy to change
Here's a primo spot for tarping (with a hammock)...
40569
Tipi Walter
10-09-2017, 20:59
we are brainwashed into living in houses instead of tents
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA-B7327eVk
nsherry61
10-09-2017, 21:18
we are brainwashed into living in houses instead of tents
No. Done that. Houses are drier and warmer/cooler and have lots of very pleasant creature comforts. Sure, a tent is okay and fun for a short time and great when moving and carrying everything on your back, but long term . . . no thanks.
That being said, I suggest we are brainwashed into the types of houses we choose, or at least heavily influenced by history and culture instead of just practicality or comfort or aesthetics.
Alligator
10-09-2017, 22:54
What I didn't read here until now is, that a tent, if all doors closed, will add several degrees of warmth for sleeping.
Not sure if a tarp would add the same?
So, even if the tarp itself might be slightly lighter than a tent, you might be forced to add some additional insulation to the sleep system.
Which would render any weight advantage of a tarp over a tent irrelevant.
Regarding animals:
I'm doing a lot of cowboy camping, but the only animal I ever noticed to approach me was a mouse that hid in a tiny gap right under my pad in a frosty night.
But then, we don't have any dangerouse animals here, and in the desert I'm hiking in winter when ist too cold for snakes.That's an interesting point about tents. So in ordinary winter conditions I don't mind using my Mega Light pyramid tent and I also have a full winter tent. Both are warmer closed up, I'd go as far as saying ten degrees vs say inside an AT shelter. If the tent has a mesh roof and sides, which I have and have had, not nearly as much. Depends on how high the sidewalls go and how tight and low the fly pitches and how much mesh the tent has. All the mesh on three season tents I don't really think you have much of a temperature advantage. In the worst of conditions, I pitch my tarp in pyramid configuration and the opening isn't large and the edges are staked on the ground.
To compare in detail you'd have to go into a comparison of people's sleep systems. To capitalize on the few degrees of warmth, you'd have to be able to reconstitute your pack list and say I made this change and I am accounting for 3 degrees of warmth from my tent by bringing a lighter long john top and saving one ounce. I do understand what you are saying and I can dial it in like that. I don't think everyone necessarily has the gear to do that or even the inclination to. They might just have a 20 degree bag. You have to factor it all in then and you run into different questions like what do you do in the evening? Do you jump in your bag or hang out in camp? Or, a tent may be slightly warmer for sleeping, but a slightly warmer clothes system is warmer to hike in, should that be necessary.
It also should be considered that a tent can be downright hot in the summer, with little air coming in at all, but under a tarp, air could be coming in from all four directions.
I personally do think you get a little more closer to nature. I spend a lot of time just chilling under my tarp. Cooking dinner, reading books. I'm in my T-rest chair relaxing and there's nothing blocking my vision. If I hear a bird, I can find it. A chipmunk or rabbit scrabbling around I can see it. A deer, bear, or stalker dude, I got four ways to run you beauty queens and kings will still be fumbling with your tent door. I'll be gone, 'Squatch can keep my quilt for a scarf and chow down on my tofu jerky. You hanging folks are 'Squatch pinatas, how do I get out of this thing again...Bam Bam Bam you been hit with a tree trunk 'cause that's what 'Squatch uses to hit his pinatas with. Privacy works both ways, 'Squatch can't see in and you can't see out! But 'Squatch can smell your beef jerky.
clusterone
10-10-2017, 00:39
Were you car camping on Citico Creek or were you backpacking in the Citico wilderness?
I had a snake come into my tent vestibule last summer and one time had a copperhead coiled up at the tent door around midnight after leaving the campfire.
No, but did have the family out for the weekend! Camped at the double campsite before North Fork Bridge. My girls love that spot, mostly for the water access. We hiked almost all the way to the other end of NF, then ended up having to bail as my oldest and wife got hit by a many yellow jackets. Wife had to use epi pen. Good 10 miles that day with kids and no lunch break. They are 9 and 8 years old...what can I say, hard core little girls! I had three packs on the way out, small kids pack, my zpack, and wife's osprey hanging on my neck. Nothing compared to what you carry, but the 60lbs was an extra bonus experience; as if the use of the epi pen was not enough.
That's an interesting point about tents. So in ordinary winter conditions I don't mind using my Mega Light pyramid tent and I also have a full winter tent. Both are warmer closed up, I'd go as far as saying ten degrees vs say inside an AT shelter. If the tent has a mesh roof and sides, which I have and have had, not nearly as much. Depends on how high the sidewalls go and how tight and low the fly pitches and how much mesh the tent has. All the mesh on three season tents I don't really think you have much of a temperature advantage.
...
True!
This came to my mind during my last weekend overnight trip. Nasty rainy weather, fresh snow near the mountaintops which I planned to cross.
Setup tent halfway up the mountain, rain had subsided so I left the doors of the tent open. During the night the sky cleared and some wind picked up, I woke up being a bit cold. All I did was closing the doors and it was warm and cosy again.
This is a MSR Hubba Hubba NX, so thats a 3-season tent with lots of mesh, and still, the difference between cowboy style and closed tent doors might be something like 5 degrees. If it was a real winter tent, the difference might be bigger, maybe closer to 10 degrees.
If I had planned for cowboy camping this weekend, I would have brought my big down bag - which is 0.5kg heavier than my 3-seasons bag, and a bivvy bag and use my poncho tarp-style. Not sure I I had any weight advantage then, but sure less comfort.
So for me ist not about private love or personal preference, but weight efficiency, to prefer a tent above a tarp.
This only for my local hikes here in the mountains, where nights are chilly, even in summer.
I've never been on the AT, so I can't speak for that.
cmoulder
10-10-2017, 07:03
Simply knocking the wind down totally changes things.
When it's windy a pyramid pitched tight to the deck beats a 3-season, 2-wall with mesh inner every time if the fly doesn't reach the ground.
With a mid, just need enough hi-low venting (very little) for a bit of fresh air circulation. Very scary waking up gasping for air when snow has blocked the lower vent.
40572
I used a tarp for 600 miles on the AT in 1999. The experience was not for me and I have not used a tarp since then. I like a floor and bug netting.
I'm OK with tent manufacturers making a good profit. If there was no money to be made, no tents would be made....
SwathHiker
10-17-2017, 15:09
snakes
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MuddyWaters
10-17-2017, 15:43
I used a tarp for 600 miles on the AT in 1999. The experience was not for me and I have not used a tarp since then. I like a floor and bug netting.
....
You can get floor and Bug netting for many tarps...
A tents rainfly is just a shaped tarp
Wher most us mfgs go wrong, is cant pitch fly first and inner last for setup in rain European mfgs often allow for this
...
Wher most us mfgs go wrong, is cant pitch fly first and inner last for setup in rain European mfgs often allow for this
Freestanding tents can be used in this way, you just need a groundcloth with straps+holes to place the end of the poles in them.
Did this with my Salewa Sierra Leone and my MSR Hubba Hubba NX, and while it needs a bit of a thinking and is some fumbling, it really works.
Such a groundcloth can also used to pitch a freestanding tent that its more a tarp than a tent (but true, it will never become a tarp this way).
4067440675
Tipi Walter
10-18-2017, 08:46
No, but did have the family out for the weekend! Camped at the double campsite before North Fork Bridge. My girls love that spot, mostly for the water access. We hiked almost all the way to the other end of NF, then ended up having to bail as my oldest and wife got hit by a many yellow jackets. Wife had to use epi pen. Good 10 miles that day with kids and no lunch break. They are 9 and 8 years old...what can I say, hard core little girls! I had three packs on the way out, small kids pack, my zpack, and wife's osprey hanging on my neck. Nothing compared to what you carry, but the 60lbs was an extra bonus experience; as if the use of the epi pen was not enough.
Yes, going up and down the North Fork makes for some tough trekking---but it's beautiful. And I know the spot you guys camped below the NF bridge---I call it the Donner Camps.
Simply knocking the wind down totally changes things.
When it's windy a pyramid pitched tight to the deck beats a 3-season, 2-wall with mesh inner every time if the fly doesn't reach the ground.
With a mid, just need enough hi-low venting (very little) for a bit of fresh air circulation. Very scary waking up gasping for air when snow has blocked the lower vent.
40572
These pyramid type tents were first designed by Chouinard to be used in snow as in your pic---with the snow placed around the bottom to keep out spindrift. I used a Chouinard Pyramid back in 1986 and had several significant problems---
** Without snow the wind would catch under the tent and attempt to lift it off the ground like an umbrella. I spent one night holding the edges down in a bad blow.
** Condensation can be terrible because it's a single wall.
** The center pole cuts into user space and often the foot of my sleeping bag would touch the wet inside wall. (The pole can be tilted off center for more room but then you lose strength).
You can get floor and Bug netting for many tarps...
A tents rainfly is just a shaped tarp
By the time you've added floor and bug netting, you might as well go with a Tarptent.
cmoulder
10-18-2017, 11:11
Yes, going up and down the North Fork makes for some tough trekking---but it's beautiful. And I know the spot you guys camped below the NF bridge---I call it the Donner Camps.
These pyramid type tents were first designed by Chouinard to be used in snow as in your pic---with the snow placed around the bottom to keep out spindrift. I used a Chouinard Pyramid back in 1986 and had several significant problems---
** Without snow the wind would catch under the tent and attempt to lift it off the ground like an umbrella. I spent one night holding the edges down in a bad blow.
** Condensation can be terrible because it's a single wall.
** The center pole cuts into user space and often the foot of my sleeping bag would touch the wet inside wall. (The pole can be tilted off center for more room but then you lose strength).
For me these are infrequent minor annoyances.
I use poles in the inverted V configuration which does not interfere with interior volume.
40704
I sleep better knowing bugs and snakes won't get me. Call me a sissy, but I can sleep at ease.
MuddyWaters
10-18-2017, 20:49
By the time you've added floor and bug netting, you might as well go with a Tarptent.
not if you want flexibility.
flexibility to set up tarp alone in daytime to wait out rain
or flexibility to use with a bivy, a bug net inner, or just a groundsheet.
saltysack
10-18-2017, 21:22
For me these are infrequent minor annoyances.
I use poles in the inverted V configuration which does not interfere with interior volume.
40704
How long are your poles in this configuration? Assume you hade the connector piece. Ron sent me the pole connector for the single pole set up to the front but can’t get a solid pitch so far.
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You can get floor and Bug netting for many tarps...
A tents rainfly is just a shaped tarp
Wher most us mfgs go wrong, is cant pitch fly first and inner last for setup in rain European mfgs often allow for this
USA MADE TarpTents set up as a fly / inner combined unit a la Hilleberg. The fly and inner body can be used separately. Footprint not needed Quite versatile.
Wayne
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cmoulder
10-19-2017, 08:24
I sleep better knowing bugs and snakes won't get me. Call me a sissy, but I can sleep at ease.
No bugs or snakes at 3°F. ;)
cmoulder
10-19-2017, 08:41
How long are your poles in this configuration? Assume you hade the connector piece. Ron sent me the pole connector for the single pole set up to the front but can’t get a solid pitch so far.
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I use Ruta Locura pole jacks and I don't know the length but they are at least a foot long, and I use them with REI (Komperdell) Powerlock carbon fiber trekking poles. The baskets are removable so I modified the pole jacks to hold the baskets when pitching in snow. This was my first version with aluminum pole jacks.
4071640717
No bugs or snakes at 3°F. ;)
As a warm blooded Floridian, I do not camp when it is possible for snow to be made!
Now you can call me a sissy...
:sun
nsherry61
10-19-2017, 09:33
I sleep better knowing bugs and snakes won't get me. Call me a sissy, but I can sleep at ease.
As a warm blooded Floridian, I do not camp when it is possible for snow to be made!
Now you can call me a sissy...
:sun
Alright already, your a sissy.
cmoulder
10-19-2017, 09:38
As a warm blooded Floridian, I do not camp when it is possible for snow to be made!
Now you can call me a sissy...
:sun
lol, well I'm from FL (born/raised in the Panhandle) and just love the cold.... most people can adapt after a while.
lol, well I'm from FL (born/raised in the Panhandle) and just love the cold.... most people can adapt after a while.
I spent the first 14 years of my life in the Midwest. I've become a warm blooded grouch. I just don't like the cold anymore. I generally do my trips when it's 40F+ degrees.
The correct answer to the thread title is
Yes
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