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View Full Version : If I were buying my gear today, I would NOT buy.....



blw2
10-08-2017, 15:25
another thread topic I saw today...."I would buy"

I thought it might be interesting and educational to know what you wouldn't buy if you had it to do over again....

Zea
10-08-2017, 15:44
Jetboil, I now prefer the $10 little collapsible stoves
Rope. Zing-it works just as well, doesn't take up space and is basically weightless
First Aid kits, basically everything in the one I bough I could've sourced from around my house for much cheaper.
Fancy "Hiking" watch. Other than occasional looking at the altimeter, it's been basically useless for me.
Cups/bowls. I just eat from the pan.
Expensive headlamp, when there are lots of cheaper ones that work better than what I got
Stuff sacks. Other than a dry bag for my sleeping bag, and a food bag, I find it easier to pack a bag without stuff sacks.
Big backpack. 65L is way more than I need, so my expensive first pack just sits around now
Water bladder. More of a hassle than it was worth for me after having 3 break, I use clip-on water bottle holders now or my Be-Free to have easy access
Any "hiking" specific clothes, except maybe socks. Most of the stuff I wear now is just discount running gear.

Puddlefish
10-08-2017, 16:13
The Therm-a-rest mattress that fell apart internally.
A bunch of little cheap little stuff sacks. Clear ziplocks for the win.
Also a hiking watch, although I at least bought a cheapish one.
A replacement pair of shoes, bought in advance. (Not really a bad thing, I still wear them for neighborhood walks.)
An expensive piece of Tyvek
All the various bits of stuff I bought to make my own stove, which cost more than the stove I eventually bought. (although... it was kind of fun experimenting and building them)
Trail runners that I bought on the internet, and I couldn't walk downhill in. (The tongue was flimsy and the laces just dug into the top of my feet.)
The neat little kettle I bought, with sharp edges, and that didn't nest with anything else.
The mummy bag that barely fit around my shoulders. (I should sell or donate this and buy a better one.)

nsherry61
10-08-2017, 16:44
Great thread idea. . . now, what do I have in my gear room that I haven't used for a long time?

- Hiking boots. Always use light weight footwear these days.
- Rain jackets. I always use a poncho for backpacking. I do occasionally use one or another of my several rain jackets, but never backpacking.
- JetBoil stove. I actually use or loan out my JetjBoil stove quite a bit with/to family. But, when backpacking by myself, I always use several more versatile and interesting alternatives instead. I wouldn't pay for another one at this point.
- Winter expedition down sleeping bag. I never use this anymore. For deep winter I use my 20 degree bag with a puffy jacket and/or a synthetic over-quilt.
- Hiking pole/stick. Always use a pair of trekking poles now. Way better in almost every way!
- GPS. Never actually bought one, but have a nice one I received as a gift. I use my phone GPS a lot. Haven't used my Garmin handheld GPS for years.
- Down expedition mitts and my Dochstein wool mitts. They are just too warm for any practical use for me, even winter camping, backcountry skiing or snowshoing. These days, I'm not out below about -15 degrees F and I am moving until I'm in camp where I am cooking or sleeping (none of which require that much warmth).
- Mountaineering boots and crampons. Since I'm not doing technical climbing these days (i.e. vertical or nearly so snow & ice with ropes) lighter shoes with micro-spikes get me everywhere I want to go. Admittedly, I often travel with others that are uncomfortable on steeper icier terrain without crampons, but I seem to do fine and love the decreased weight and increased flexibility of lighter footwear. To each their own.
- Mountaineering tent. I haven't pitched my heavy 4-season mountain tent since I bought a light Big Agnes Copper Spur 2, even for winter skiing and snowshoeing. It's just stupid heavy unless I insist on camping above treeline in winter conditions with limited shelter options in the lee of rocks or ridges.
- Nalgene type or other commercial water bottles, except for one that I use in winter so I can put snow through it's wide mouth and I can put hot water in it overnight in my sleeping bag without fear of leaking or other catastrophic failure.
- 2 L cooking pot. Even when cooking for four people, it is easier to boil more smaller volumes on multiple stoves than to boil big volumes on one big stove.
- Inverted canister stove (MSR Windpro 2). Bought it for deep winter use. It works great. But, I've figured out how to get my upright canister stoves to work find down in deep winter temperatures (mostly above -10 degrees F), so the WindPro is unnecessarily big and heavy, yes, even for melting snow.
- Many knives, a whole drawer full, ranging from small 1.5" single blade folding knives to larger hunting/survival type knives. I just don't take knives into the backcountry with me any more except my dinky little swiss army commander and sometimes a plastic butter knife.

ldsailor
10-08-2017, 16:56
- Synthetic fill rectangular sleeping bag (too heavy)
- 600 fill down mummy sleeping bag (still too heavy)
- 65 liter, 4 lbs 4 oz backpack (too heavy)
- Bowl - never used it
- Columbia rain suit (too heavy)
- Camp towel - used it once in 1,277 miles

I'm sure there are a few other things I can't think of. Like most hikers, I wish I was more careful to acquire ultralight equipment. The weight on your back makes a difference.

DownEaster
10-08-2017, 17:21
Down gear. I've got a sleeping bag, jacket, two vests, and booties made of down, and I'm bringing none of it on the AT. Instead I'm taking a new synthetic bag, jacket, and vest with me for next year's through-hike.

The AT is a wet trail. If the humidity rises during the night (typically with increasing temperatures) you can wake up in a sweat-soaked sleeping bag or quilt. The bag/quilt won't dry out until the humidity goes down, and wet down is useless. Wet synthetic insulation is miserable, but won't kill you. You can try to keep your down gear out of streams and the rain, but sweating and respiration (if you tuck your face inside the bag/quilt in your sleep) can still cause problems.

rafe
10-08-2017, 17:28
Hundreds, may thousands of AT thru hikers have carried down sleeping bags.

Slo-go'en
10-08-2017, 17:42
Down gear. I've got a sleeping bag, jacket, two vests, and booties made of down, and I'm bringing none of it on the AT. Instead I'm taking a new synthetic bag, jacket, and vest with me for next year's through-hike.

The AT is a wet trail. If the humidity rises during the night (typically with increasing temperatures) you can wake up in a sweat-soaked sleeping bag or quilt. The bag/quilt won't dry out until the humidity goes down, and wet down is useless. Wet synthetic insulation is miserable, but won't kill you. You can try to keep your down gear out of streams and the rain, but sweating and respiration (if you tuck your face inside the bag/quilt in your sleep) can still cause problems.

I use a down bag on the AT. One does have to be careful and put it in the sun as often as you can. Put it in the dryer for a few minutes every time you go to town. I would like to get a down puffy. I currently use a fleece or synthetic vest for the warm layer.

DownEaster
10-08-2017, 17:43
Hundreds, may thousands of AT thru hikers have carried down sleeping bags.
Oh, I understand that the choice works OK for most people. I just don't think the risk is worthwhile.

I've carried down in Maine, and regretted it. Two hurricanes blew through the week I was on the 100 mile wilderness. It's not fun to wake up in a shelter to discover the bottom two feet of your sleeping bag are soaked from sideways rain.

garlic08
10-08-2017, 18:13
...pretty much anything REI sells.

I've gone to the cottage industry folks for a while now and really like their stuff.

MuddyWaters
10-08-2017, 20:07
...pretty much anything REI sells.

I've gone to the cottage industry folks for a while now and really like their stuff.

Only thing I ever bought from REI is xlite sleeping pad for the warranty.

I honestly dont know why anyone would even go in one of the stores. My local outdoor store, has more tents set up to see/touch/get inside than most REI. Of course I dont buy hiking gear from them either, but ski clothing, north face bookbags for kids, some clothing by exoffiio, patagonia, etc

MtDoraDave
10-08-2017, 21:50
A two person tent.
A smaller and lighter one person tent is all I need on the AT. The two person tent I originally bought is unnecessarily large and heavier - and sometimes finding the real estate to pitch it has been problematic.

Time Zone
10-08-2017, 22:05
4 season tent.
I (wrongly) figured, for camping year-round, you need all 4 seasons! I didn't appreciate that a) 4 season really meant strength to handle snow accumulation, b) less mesh on inner, c) unnecessary in southeast TN even if you get some snow, d) too heavy and bulky for backpacking (2P, 41sf, 4 season tent was about 9 lbs, 25 liters in volume!)

At the other extreme:
braided mason's line as UL guylines. Stuff is too slippery to hold knots well.
Bivy - usually too much internal condensation when used in the southeast

fiddlehead
10-08-2017, 22:45
Don't need:
Flashlight. I can use my phone's.
Camera. ditto (many other things too, but that's all on another thread)(tech on the trail)

I think my next purchase would be a lightweight pack that is waterproof, so I don't have to carry a pack cover. (the one I have is OK when my food is down to 2 days or less, more than that, it doesn't fit. This can be a pain)

rafe
10-09-2017, 06:55
...pretty much anything REI sells.

I've gone to the cottage industry folks for a while now and really like their stuff.
For packs, tents, hammocks, tarps, some clothing and food items - I get your point. But in other categories I'm not aware of cottage industry alternatives: shoes, socks, rain wear, poles, tech stuff, maps. Custom leather (Limmer) boots are out.

Time Zone
10-09-2017, 07:43
I honestly dont know why anyone would even go in one of the stores. My local outdoor store, has more tents set up to see/touch/get inside than most REI.

Not everyone lives somewhere that has an REI, let alone a local store that is "better" in selection than REI.

For novices, it's a good place to get started. With experience, sure, many avid hikers and backpackers will dial in their gear requirements beyond what REI carries. But it's not like they don't carry Osprey packs, Big Agnes tents, and Neoair Xlite pads. All those are popular among experienced backpackers and thru-hikers. Sure, there are other brands they don't carry, but it's not a foolish first place to check when getting one's gear.

DownEaster
10-09-2017, 07:49
I think my next purchase would be a lightweight pack that is waterproof, so I don't have to carry a pack cover.
My pack isn't waterproof, yet I don't see the need to carry a pack cover. I line the inside with a trash compactor bag, and everything there stays dry. I only put water-resistant things (bottles, butt pad, Crocs) in the mesh outside pockets. That just leaves the hip belt pockets, and a quart Ziploc bag for each keeps all the contents dry.

Modern lightweight packs don't have many individual compartments at risk of retaining water, so it's easy enough to protect the contents on the insides. A pack cover doesn't keep water from sliding down the back of your rain jacket and soaking into the pack from that side, so it's not much protection in any case.

TexasBob
10-09-2017, 08:24
Not everyone lives somewhere that has an REI, let alone a local store that is "better" in selection than REI. .......

So true. Used to be there were local sporting goods stores that carried backpacking stuff but REI, Dick's, Academy, etc. and online shopping have pretty much put the local smaller stores out of business. I feel lucky to have an REI nearby.

methodman
10-09-2017, 08:37
Quess that's what happened to Appalachian Outfitters in Virginia.

MtDoraDave
10-09-2017, 08:37
...I would not buy a middle of the road sleeping bag.
My 650 fill bag works great, but for a couple hundred more dollars, I could have saved at least a whole POUND.
.
Buy once, cry once... Or get two or three or four items.

foodbag
10-09-2017, 09:30
Pack covers make a great place to layout all of your miscellaneous doodads after you've set up camp, so they don't get scattered - sort of like a gear sink. For that reason alone I like having a pack cover.

Traffic Jam
10-09-2017, 10:03
In a sense, no purchases are wasted. If nothing else, you learn something.

There are a few things that were a mistake, such as my 40* bag, but those things get passed on to my daughters or used for car camping/travel.

Tipi Walter
10-09-2017, 10:51
Any gear that causes shrieks and cursings is to be fixed or avoided. The only gear you have to fear is gear itself etc. I think Franklin Roosevelt said that.

No gear is perfect although some gear lasts forever, like the Sierra Cup or the P-38 can opener. Even if stuff disintegrates I buy it again and again because everything is disposable.

In the old days (1970-1980s) we used flashlights. Remember Mini Mags? Many of these relics were terrible, and every company seemed to want to sell us their version of a backpacking flashlight. Mallory comes to mind. Coast flashlights! Princeton Tec!! Remember the hand-pumped flashlight?? Took one on a trip to Pisgah and it broke---the gears inside snapped. See---

http://www.flashlightmuseum.com/Misc-Unknown-Flashlight-Yellow-Black-Generator-Hand-Charger-1970

https://picclick.com/Vintage-Mallory-Duracell-805-Pink-Salmon-Flash-Light-161974278949.html

AllDownhillFromHere
10-09-2017, 11:02
...pretty much anything REI sells.
I've gone to the cottage industry folks for a while now and really like their stuff.

Feel pretty good about it, right?

AllDownhillFromHere
10-09-2017, 11:03
...I would not buy a middle of the road sleeping bag.
My 650 fill bag works great, but for a couple hundred more dollars, I could have saved at least a whole POUND.
Buy once, cry once... Or get two or three or four items.

Says the man with an extra $200 to spare.

rafe
10-09-2017, 11:42
In a sense, no purchases are wasted. If nothing else, you learn something.

I was gonna say something like that.

There were only a few purchases that were really dumb. The rest were more of a ongoing learning experience. In other words, no major regrets.

Over the years I've probably spent a few thousand dollars on hiking gear. But considering how much hiking has been part of my life, it was a bargain. I've done far more foolish things with my money.

Drybones
10-09-2017, 14:13
My first 3 packs
Iodine tablets, Aquamira, three filters
Four tents
First two hammock tarps, make that three
Five sleeping bags
......in other words, just about everything I've bought or made up to this point...ask this question in five years and I'll have another list if I'm still hiking. My GR Crown 60 pack and home made stove are about the only things I can't find something wrong with.....yet.

QuietStorm
10-09-2017, 15:02
Synthetic 20 degree sleeping bag--too heavy.
Patagonia Windstopper jacket--bought used but heavy


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bdetamore
10-09-2017, 15:04
4 lb, 65 liter backpack
1 lb water filter

TTT
10-09-2017, 17:36
Socks - have enough of them to supply all thru-hikers. The warmest I have are from New Zealand. The worst from Romania. The ones I prefer are from Ireland.
Shoes - got a wardrobe full of new footwear. Even got some old original Harley Davidson boots if anyone is interested.
Stuff sacks - if I ever decide to rob a bank and need something to carry the loot, I'm good to go
Stakes - made an error in quantity when buying off the internet and cornered the market on MSR groundhog stakes causing a supply/demand shortage in the USA. I have enough stakes to build a shelter with.
Pants - Twice bought Fjalraven pants in the wrong size so am the proud owner of 3 pairs.

Maineiac64
10-09-2017, 17:55
I remember seeing a post from someone saying they had bought every item 3-4x to dial in what they really liked and needed. I would not buy anything that isn’t at least very light. I pretty much returned or sold everything and went to zpacks pack, tent, a lighter pad, lighter filter, cook kit, and a ee rev 20 quilt. Since have sold the ee quilt going back to bag for lower temps but will get an ee rev 40 for warmer temps.

Alligator
10-09-2017, 23:08
Fleece sleeping bag liner. It helped extend my sleeping bag for winter but best option is a warmer bag. Plus it bunched up and drove me nuts.

rafe
10-10-2017, 00:34
Fleece sleeping bag liner. It helped extend my sleeping bag for winter but best option is a warmer bag. Plus it bunched up and drove me nuts.

Bag liner didn't work out for me either. Ditto for some shoes and boots.

There were a handful of items I returned or exchanged after one use - a pack from EMS, a tent from REI.

Other than that, all of my packs, tents, sleeping bags, stoves have had their season and did what they were supposed to do, for a while at least. A lot of that stuff is still around and still used on occasion, e.g. for road camping, power outages, etc.

Ercoupe
10-10-2017, 07:09
Any twist lock hiking pole I've have/had eventually fails, or breaks.

Things I would not take even for one night.

Hubba one tent, small interior, heavy .

Candle and holder, not enough light to read by, fire hazard.

Hand chain saw, way too much effort for the result.

quiet*t
10-10-2017, 07:23
...pretty much anything REI sells.

I've gone to the cottage industry folks for a while now and really like their stuff.Enlighten me what are the cottage industry people doing??

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Hikingjim
10-10-2017, 08:26
Says the man with an extra $200 to spare.

The idea of not spending money on middle of the road core gear, like a sleeping bag, can apply to people who don't have tons of cash lying around as well.
I generally went with this over partial upgrades. I would just wait it out until I could justify the piece that would last me several years or a decade+ (in terms of satisfaction/weight/quality).

Also find that hiking clothes and rain jackets also are not necessary in most circumstances. I could do most hikes with clearance clothes from the sports store, a dollar store poncho and a garbage bag pack liner.

Suzzz
10-10-2017, 10:59
MSR Whisperlite Stove : Too unstable and finicky and too much maintenance, that thing scares me
Esbit Stove : Too slow, doesn't burn clean and gets pot dirty, smells too strong
Titanium spork : Don't like the feel of it in my mouth, much prefer my plastic spork
Quilt : Just not for me, I'm a sleeping bag person

Buying gear was trial and error for me (as I'm sure it is for everyone else). I started out with a lot of cheap stuff because I simply could not afford the better stuff. I knew that my gear wasn't great but it was the only way for me to get out on the trail. Money was pretty tight back then.

Every year since, I've bought new pieces and I'm now at the point where everything I have is of good quality but not as light as I would like it to be so I'm in the continuous process of researching and buying lighter items. In doing so I have put in place two strict rules that I religiously adhere to : 1) I'm not buying anything unless it's lighter and better quality than the item it's meant to replace. 2) Money is no object... If I can't afford it right now, I don't buy something ''in-between'', I put money aside and wait until I have the money for it.

However, sometimes the ''better/lighter'' items just don't work FOR ME.

Zea
10-10-2017, 11:00
Fleece sleeping bag liner. It helped extend my sleeping bag for winter but best option is a warmer bag. Plus it bunched up and drove me nuts.

I really don't feel like my liner keeps me any warmer in low-temps, but I like it because I can use only the liner on cool but not cold nights, and I rarely have to wash my sleeping bag since I'm never really in contact with it.

Venchka
10-10-2017, 11:48
Enlighten me what are the cottage industry people doing??

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Anything. Everything. Find the Cottage Gear company list here at WhiteBlaze.
Wayne

Venchka
10-10-2017, 11:52
Here. For the Search Challenged:
https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/90910-List-of-Cottage-Backpacking-Gear-Companies?highlight=LIST+COTTAGE+GEAR

Wayne

MtDoraDave
10-10-2017, 20:09
Says the man with an extra $200 to spare.

I started a savings account JUST for hiking. I put $35 into it every week. I used to spend that much on cigarettes and fast food. Priorities: I'd rather save for a thru hike. Although it's supposed to be my thru hike fund, but I dip into it for hiking gear.
I'm not rich, and I don't really have the $200 to "spare", but the next time a gear choice comes up, I think I will remember the "buy once, cry once" motto.

Starchild
10-10-2017, 22:09
Down gear. I've got a sleeping bag, jacket, two vests, and booties made of down, and I'm bringing none of it on the AT. Instead I'm taking a new synthetic bag, jacket, and vest with me for next year's through-hike.
Another posting to reconsider. The AT is not a down soaking trail. Down works on the AT. Yes it can happen, yes it is very rare and yes you can get out very easy if it does. Also yes you can get help, it's the AT for crying out loud (during the thru hiker bubble).

Starchild
10-10-2017, 22:13
In a sense, no purchases are wasted. If nothing else, you learn something.

Mostly my thoughts on this. One of my first buys for prep for my thru was a alchy stove from Vargo that a thru hiker recommended. I got it and tryed it and it just didn't seem to fit me, but was happy for the experience. It did help shape my stove selection in more then one way.

GoLight
10-11-2017, 21:20
In the beginning money was tight and I had plenty of other obligations so I bought things that could serve me solo and that would also work when my wife came along. A two person tent that weighed 6 pounds, a 2L cook pot and so on. She only came once in a while, so most of the time I was stumbling up the trail with a two person load. Now that I'm single I have reduced everything. One thing I've learned is that if I buy something to try it out, that it better have a decent resale value in case I don't want to keep it. If it doesn't have a good resale value thats generally because its not very popular to begin with and probably for good reason(s).

AllDownhillFromHere
10-11-2017, 23:21
...I'm not rich, and I don't really have the $200 to "spare", but the next time a gear choice comes up, I think I will remember the "buy once, cry once" motto.

Except you do - since you took your cigarette and junkfood money and put it towards this.

George
10-12-2017, 00:17
cheap liquor, after all it is vacation - I should have bought the good stuff

El JP
10-12-2017, 01:27
cheap liquor, after all it is vacation - I should have bought the good stuff

I sorta figured that this would be the situation where you do your best to stay away from the rotgut.

KDogg
10-12-2017, 04:19
Down gear. I've got a sleeping bag, jacket, two vests, and booties made of down, and I'm bringing none of it on the AT. Instead I'm taking a new synthetic bag, jacket, and vest with me for next year's through-hike.

The AT is a wet trail. If the humidity rises during the night (typically with increasing temperatures) you can wake up in a sweat-soaked sleeping bag or quilt. The bag/quilt won't dry out until the humidity goes down, and wet down is useless. Wet synthetic insulation is miserable, but won't kill you. You can try to keep your down gear out of streams and the rain, but sweating and respiration (if you tuck your face inside the bag/quilt in your sleep) can still cause problems.

Hmmm...I had a down quilt, a down pillow and a down jacket. Never had a problem with any of them. Do not wear your down coat while hiking and don't touch the sides of your tent with any of your stuff. The latter is why I don't recommend a one-person tent for one person. You need a two-person tent for one and a three-person tent for two. Keep your wet stuff out of the tent. Hang your wet hiking clothes on a tree. Yep, they will still be wet in the morning. Take your dry stuff off and put the wet stuff back on. It will dry quickly from your body heat.

You have to know how to use your gear. If you don't know how to use it properly then any of it can be a waste of money. Some stuff that works well for others might not work for you. Get out there and test it out before you go.

You will take stuff with you that you end up not needing. Send it home. The one thing I took with me that ended up being useless was a separate camera. My phone worked fine for all my photography needs and was good for many other purposes. Try to get stuff that has dual (or more) purposes.

MuddyWaters
10-12-2017, 04:46
Down gear. I've got a sleeping bag, jacket, two vests, and booties made of down, and I'm bringing none of it on the AT. Instead I'm taking a new synthetic bag, jacket, and vest with me for next year's through-hike.

The AT is a wet trail. If the humidity rises during the night (typically with increasing temperatures) you can wake up in a sweat-soaked sleeping bag or quilt. The bag/quilt won't dry out until the humidity goes down, and wet down is useless. Wet synthetic insulation is miserable, but won't kill you. You can try to keep your down gear out of streams and the rain, but sweating and respiration (if you tuck your face inside the bag/quilt in your sleep) can still cause problems.

Down degrades and loses loft with sweat and body oils and moisture pickup.
Keeping it "dry " isnt that big a deal. Its a priority. And your in a town every 3-4 days with dryers. Its even a problem on a week long winter trip, and is why you must have over-rated for conditions, the bag gets less warm with time. Down requires washing frequent washing to maintain its loft at design rating. Fortunately, dont need that rating...99% of time.

But your correct, a synthetic is less trouble on a long thru hike. Many thru hikers have used a synthetic cheap light summer bag for warm weather from damascus-NH. Throw in any washer, no special soap, etc.

blw2
10-12-2017, 06:04
Thanks to all that have responded so far. Great thread i think....
For me, I started thinking about maybe getting back into backpacking a few years back. I thought I'd start buying stuff that could be used in the "now" while camping with son's boy scout troop but later I could use for some casual backpackpacking. I was really trying to spend less buying stuff I knew wasn't exactly right....
I'm thinking mostly that was a mistake.
Buy once cry once has some merit

I bought a teton sports pack....cheap but heavy. Oh well, it can be something I can lend out or let my wife use if she ever comes along someplace where we might be tenting (she wouldn't be carrying most of the gear, and will only go front country camping)
I bought an REI half dome tent. Much lighter than my old kelty, & I have enjoyed it, but not quite what I want now...
I bought a BA Kings Canyon quilt. Packs light and small and serves me well for summer camping, but for what I paid I wish that I would have spent just not so much more in the big scheme of things, to get a 20-30 degree quilt instead that would likely be just as small and light

rafe
10-12-2017, 08:02
I own five down sleeping bags. The first was a no-name bag purchased from some hunter's-supply store in 1972 for $45. It has 2.5 lbs of down fill and probably weighs 4+ lbs total. I used it for 20+ years. It still has all of its original loft but one of the internal baffles has torn.

Bought two more bags in 1990 for a thru attempt. Both "generic". The heavy one is what I started with, and then switched to the light one in Damascus. Used those two for 17+ years.

The last two date from 2007 and 2008. They are the only two with fancy 800-grade down or a name brand that you might recognize. Got good deals on both, about $150. Didn't exactly intend to buy the second one, but... no regrets.

So that's how it goes if you stay at it long enough... All these bags are still functional. The old ones dont get used much any more, but I cant bring myself to give them up. They all had their day. The two "new" bags are still nearly good as new. The old ones occasionally get used for car camping and non-backpacking situations.

With the new bags I've made it a point to always wear a silk base layer while sleeping. Neither bag has ever been washed, or needed washing.

Last Call
10-12-2017, 09:53
Anybody ever bought a bear bell?

Venchka
10-12-2017, 09:57
Anybody ever bought a bear bell?

Yep. I bought it in the Dark Ages. I still have it. Unfortunately, it doesn’t make enough noise to be useful.
Wayne


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Runner2017
10-12-2017, 10:29
I own five down sleeping bags. The first was a no-name bag purchased from some hunter's-supply store in 1972 for $45. It has 2.5 lbs of down fill and probably weighs 4+ lbs total. I used it for 20+ years. It still has all of its original loft but one of the internal baffles has torn.

Bought two more bags in 1990 for a thru attempt. Both "generic". The heavy one is what I started with, and then switched to the light one in Damascus. Used those two for 17+ years.

The last two date from 2007 and 2008. They are the only two with fancy 800-grade down or a name brand that you might recognize. Got good deals on both, about $150. Didn't exactly intend to buy the second one, but... no regrets.

So that's how it goes if you stay at it long enough... All these bags are still functional. The old ones dont get used much any more, but I cant bring myself to give them up. They all had their day. The two "new" bags are still nearly good as new. The old ones occasionally get used for car camping and non-backpacking situations.

With the new bags I've made it a point to always wear a silk base layer while sleeping. Neither bag has ever been washed, or needed washing.Met a thru-hiker couple at a shelter right before Neels Gap on the AT last spring. He made two thru-hike sleeping bags, one for himself, the other for his wife, using nearly 4 lb down fill of the sleeping bag that he purchased in 1970 for $45. According to him, that was "***** load of money" at the time he was a college kid and had to work a whole summer to save up.

Sent from my ASUS_Z01HD using Tapatalk

Patrickjd9
10-12-2017, 10:29
There are a few things that were a mistake, such as my 40* bag, but those things get passed on to my daughters or used for car camping/travel.
I ran a lending library for sleeping bags when my daughter was growing up. I made a couple of mistakes that always worked for one kid or another.

Patrickjd9
10-12-2017, 10:51
He made two thru-hike sleeping bags, one for himself, the other for his wife, using nearly 4 lb down fill of the sleeping bag that he purchased in 1970 for $45. According to him, that was "***** load of money" at the time he was a college kid and had to work a whole summer to save up.
Good gear was expensive in the old days. A Kelty frame pack and North Face Cat's Meow sleeping bag sell today for about what they did in the early '80s.

Tipi Walter
10-12-2017, 10:54
[QUOTE=MuddyWaters;2174510]Down degrades and loses loft with sweat and body oils and moisture pickup.
Keeping it "dry " isnt that big a deal. Its a priority. And your in a town every 3-4 days with dryers. Its even a problem on a week long winter trip, and is why you must have over-rated for conditions, the bag gets less warm with time. Down requires washing frequent washing to maintain its loft at design rating. Fortunately, dont need that rating...99% of time.

But your correct, a synthetic is less trouble on a long thru hike. Many thru hikers have used a synthetic cheap light summer bag for warm weather from damascus-NH. Throw in any washer, no special soap, etc.[/QUOTE

I've had three down bags in the last 40 years of backpacking and can honestly say I used each one almost every day---just came in this morning after sleeping in the back yard with my second down bag---a Marmot Couloir. My go-to winter bag is my WM Puma rated at -15F. It sits ready to go for an October trip.

Of the three bags, I only washed any of them ONCE and it was my old 1980 North Face Ibex bag with 550 fill. After 21 years I retired it because you're right, it wasn't keeping me as warm in 1995 as it did in 1980.

Down warmth in the field is related to air humidity. Some nights in the tent are cold and wet and humid---and the bag gets a little flat---some nights are bone dry at 10F with extremely low air humidity---causing the down bag to loft back up to at-home levels. This could happen on Day 20 of a long trip. With a proper IQ there's no reason or need to hit a laundry mat every 4 days to restore a moist down bag. If that were true I'd never pull long trips in the winter.

BuckeyeBill
10-12-2017, 11:28
I sorta figured that this would be the situation where you do your best to stay away from the rotgut.

I hope I can find someone in Georgia, North Carolina or Tennessee that has some good moonshine. After my grandmother passed her recipe went missing.

rafe
10-12-2017, 11:52
Met a thru-hiker couple at a shelter right before Neels Gap on the AT last spring. He made two thru-hike sleeping bags, one for himself, the other for his wife, using nearly 4 lb down fill of the sleeping bag that he purchased in 1970 for $45. According to him, that was "***** load of money" at the time he was a college kid and had to work a whole summer to save up.

Sent from my ASUS_Z01HD using Tapatalk

Officially the inflation factor from the to now is 5.86. So $45 then is $264 now.

MuddyWaters
10-12-2017, 13:37
[QUOTE=MuddyWaters;2174510]Down degrades and loses loft with sweat and body oils and moisture pickup.
Keeping it "dry " isnt that big a deal. Its a priority. And your in a town every 3-4 days with dryers. Its even a problem on a week long winter trip, and is why you must have over-rated for conditions, the bag gets less warm with time. Down requires washing frequent washing to maintain its loft at design rating. Fortunately, dont need that rating...99% of time.

But your correct, a synthetic is less trouble on a long thru hike. Many thru hikers have used a synthetic cheap light summer bag for warm weather from damascus-NH. Throw in any washer, no special soap, etc.[/QUOTE


I've had three down bags in the last 40 years of backpacking and can honestly say I used each one almost every day---just came in this morning after sleeping in the back yard with my second down bag---a Marmot Couloir. My go-to winter bag is my WM Puma rated at -15F. It sits ready to go for an October trip.

Of the three bags, I only washed any of them ONCE and it was my old 1980 North Face Ibex bag with 550 fill. After 21 years I retired it because you're right, it wasn't keeping me as warm in 1995 as it did in 1980.

Down warmth in the field is related to air humidity. Some nights in the tent are cold and wet and humid---and the bag gets a little flat---some nights are bone dry at 10F with extremely low air humidity---causing the down bag to loft back up to at-home levels. This could happen on Day 20 of a long trip. With a proper IQ there's no reason or need to hit a laundry mat every 4 days to restore a moist down bag. If that were true I'd never pull long trips in the winter.
I keep my bags and quilts in large plastic bins. Ive posted how to washing pics, and showed before and after loft here before. In the bins theres no discounting how visibly fuller they are.

If you dont wash it frequently, you dont have the 800-900 fill power you paid for. You dont have zero obviously, but you have a compromised bag. By the time i get 20 night, mine are pretty bad looking.

Ill wash my 20 quilt this weekend in prep for upcoming hike. It has 15 nights on it from this summer and looks rather poor. Ill probably take pics again

KDogg
10-12-2017, 14:21
Anybody ever bought a bear bell?

lol...made me think of a joke:

What's the difference between black bear poop and grizzly bear poop? Black bear poop is purple and full of seeds, Grizzly bear poop is black and full of bear bells.

Tipi Walter
10-12-2017, 14:29
My Puma down bag still has its loft like when new and it's never been washed and has hundreds of bag nights since I got it. Here's what it looked like when new in 2007---

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2007/The-Hangover-Mountan-Clearcut/i-mdnnsj5/0/cdb4a494/L/TRIP%2069%20053-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Gear-TheSevenHolyNylons/Bags-Pads-And-Other-Junk/i-WFqwCvj/0/1fbb3519/XL/P1000036-XL.jpg

Here's the bag today in October 2017. This bag has seen over a thousand bag nights in ten years w/o washing. Still lofted up and good to go. Of course I always wear baselayers when inside with minimal fouling. Maybe being a vegetarian for the last 45 years keeps the down happier and less soiled?? Who knows.

MuddyWaters
10-12-2017, 15:15
With 36 oz down and 9 " loft, a puma likely has a bit of overfill, and is a different beast from a UL bag or quilt achieving 2" loft with minimal down, where even fabric wt compresses the down slightly.

flemdawg1
10-12-2017, 16:21
Big Agnes Air Core pads owned 4, all leaked after a trip or 2.
BPL pack, back when Ryan Jordan was trying to brand and sell gear, they came up with a pack. I bought one used, so I couldn't even return the piece of garbage. And on the very first trip the hip belt fell off, continously. It was only secured to the pack by a 2x5 piece of velcro. Tried to glue, then had it sewn on. Just never was comfortable.
Golite Jam 50, another hairbrained used purchase. My pack list just wasn't quite UL-ready, and spent 10 days in GA/NC with a literal pain in the back.
Cheapo Chinese Croc-ish sandals, took to Maine, didn't survive the 2 week trip even just wearing around camp.
Any cheap walmart headlamp, not bright nor reliable. Bought 2, one an Energizer, one a Ozark trail.

Ashepabst
10-13-2017, 10:36
a name brand synthetic 20* bag that's only as good as 35*-40* after 5 years of light and well-cared-for use. it was only cheap until I had to replace it.

rafe
10-13-2017, 11:10
If you dont wash it frequently, you dont have the 800-900 fill power you paid for. You dont have zero obviously, but you have a compromised bag. By the time i get 20 night, mine are pretty bad looking.


I don't understand why roughly 100% of the moisture in the bag would not eventually leave the bag with proper care and storage.

"Loose as a goose when not in use." That's the rule I've heard. Works for me. At home, in big mesh bags, very breathable. When I get to camp, the first thing I do is unpack and fluff out the bag.

My three older bags got occasional washings, but by no means "frequent." More like once every few years.

Tipi Walter
10-13-2017, 11:17
I don't understand why roughly 100% of the moisture in the bag would not eventually leave the bag with proper care and storage.

"Loose as a goose when not in use." That's the rule I've heard. Works for me. At home, in big mesh bags, very breathable. When I get to camp, the first thing I do is unpack and fluff out the bag.

My three older bags got occasional washings, but by no means "frequent." More like once every few years.

If my pics don't convince anyone about not needing to wash a down bag, nothing will.

blw2
10-13-2017, 19:28
a name brand synthetic 20* bag that's only as good as 35*-40* after 5 years of light and well-cared-for use. it was only cheap until I had to replace it.
tell me more, please....One of the things still on my list is a warmer quilt. I don't want to repeat the mistake

Patrickjd9
10-13-2017, 21:57
Big Agnes Air Core pads owned 4, all leaked after a trip or 2.


My only problem with an inflatable, also a Big Agnes, was with putting it on a shelter floor. I now spread my tent onto the floor underneath the pad and then put my sleeping pad on top of the tent.

MuddyWaters
10-14-2017, 00:21
I don't understand why roughly 100% of the moisture in the bag would not eventually leave the bag with proper care and storage.



Because your bodys respiration, and perspiration, is not just "water".
Why do clothes smell and get dirty after you wear them?
Why does bath towel smell if dont wash it?

Why can a dog track your scent?

DownEaster
10-14-2017, 03:56
I don't understand why roughly 100% of the moisture in the bag would not eventually leave the bag with proper care and storage.
Because a fair amount of that moisture is bound up in the cells of fungi and bacteria. Fungi (molds, yeasts, mildew) absorb moisture and nutrients though their cell walls, so water vapor and organic contributions (skin cells, oil, snot) circulating in the area will promote their growth. The various fungi have mechanisms to prolong life even when the moisture and nutrients are absent for long periods (chitin in their cell walls to retain the captured moisture, for instance).

You can try shining a black light (UV "Woods lamp" used for forensics) on your bag, and you'll see lots of traces of organic contamination. And that's just on the outside. Fluffy insulation provides a huge amount of surface area on which things can grow.

rafe
10-14-2017, 09:01
The fact remains, 75 to 85% of AT thru hikers use down sleeping bags, per the surveys cited below:

https://thetrek.co/by-the-numbers-top-appalachian-trail-sleeping-bags-and-pads/

https://thetrek.co/appalachian-trail/the-top-sleeping-bags-on-the-appalachian-trail-2016-thru-hiker-survey/

If you're getting a lot of snot on your bag, I just have to say, yer doin' it wrong. ;)

Jim Adams
10-14-2017, 20:58
I usually buy nothing but down. If you are getting wet from sweat then you are not venting. If you get it wet from rain in the shelter,then you aren't sleeping with your head toward the opening of the shelter. If you are getting it wet inside your tent then you need a new tent. I stopped buying synthetic 25 years ago and will never go back. I do a lot of canoe camping in Canada, have two A.T. thru hikes under my belt, 1990 and 2002, 1000 miles of PCT and tons of nights camping on other trails. Learn to keep your down dry and stop worrying. BTW, never sleep with your head toward the back of the shelter! If it rains into the shelter it will hit your face and wake you up and also the mice run along the walls.....much better to have them run over your feet than your face.

Elaikases
10-14-2017, 21:18
I usually buy nothing but down. If you are getting wet from sweat then you are not venting. If you get it wet from rain in the shelter,then you aren't sleeping with your head toward the opening of the shelter. If you are getting it wet inside your tent then you need a new tent. I stopped buying synthetic 25 years ago and will never go back. I do a lot of canoe camping in Canada, have two A.T. thru hikes under my belt, 1990 and 2002, 1000 miles of PCT and tons of nights camping on other trails. Learn to keep your down dry and stop worrying. BTW, never sleep with your head toward the back of the shelter! If it rains into the shelter it will hit your face and wake you up and also the mice run along the walls.....much better to have them run over your feet than your face.

Good point about the mice.

I've been lucky, in the off season, so to speak, the mice are no longer out and about.

nsherry61
10-14-2017, 21:37
Because your bodys respiration, and perspiration, is not just "water".
True, although most of your respiration is just water, kinda like distilled water actually, not completely clean, but pretty darn near.


Why do clothes smell and get dirty after you wear them?
Contact with your skin. If you are wearing something that covers your skin, then very little smell and dirt gets onto the outside layers unless they wick moisture off of your base layer, something that nylon taffeta isn't particularly great at. How often do you need to wash you winter coat due to body contamination vs. dirt from outside?


Why does bath towel smell if dont wash it?
Because your skin bits, skin oil, and moisture you towel off your naked skin make great breading grounds for bacteria.


Why can a dog track your scent?
Because they smell ridiculously minute bits of you and your associated biome.


Because a fair amount of that moisture is bound up in the cells of fungi and bacteria. Fungi (molds, yeasts, mildew) absorb moisture and nutrients though their cell walls, so water vapor and organic contributions (skin cells, oil, snot) circulating in the area will promote their growth. The various fungi have mechanisms to prolong life even when the moisture and nutrients are absent for long periods (chitin in their cell walls to retain the captured moisture, for instance).
Not really an issue with sleeping bags unless they are made with older down that wasn't cleaned as effectively as most moderns downs are, or you let them get really dirty.


You can try shining a black light (UV "Woods lamp" used for forensics) on your bag, and you'll see lots of traces of organic contamination. And that's just on the outside.
Actually, that black light thing is little more than a ubiquitous movie myth. Blood does NOT fluoresce under black light, although other things do, both organic and inorganic. So, your bag may fluoresce under black light and some of the fluorescence may be organic (feathers are organic also by the way, don't know if they fluoresce), some of the organics on your bag will not fluoresce and since lots of stuff that isn't organic also fluoresces this idea kinda fails as a diagnostic tool.



Fluffy insulation provides a huge amount of surface area on which things can grow.
That is unambiguously and absolutely true, so long as there are moisture and nutrients available to sustain them.

Bronk
10-15-2017, 10:59
Things I left in hiker boxes:

Can opener
Binoculars
Extra clothing...the only duplicates should be socks and underwear...everything else is part of a layering system and when it is the coldest of the cold you have every piece of clothing on.
First Aid Kit...I started out with a box about the size of the yellow pages...for you millenials who don't know what a phone book looks like think about the size of a ream of copier paper. I slowly pared it down to the point where all I carried was a few bandaids and a few alcohol pads and a few ibuprofen pills which I rarely used...if you are taking them everyday you are doing something wrong and risk a serious injury because you are blocking pain that should be telling you to stop. Beyond a minimal first aid kit you are going into town anyway...carry what you can get away with until you get to the next road.
Books...carry only one at a time...leave it in a shelter when you are done with it and pick up a book you find in the next shelter.
Food...will take some experimentation to find the right amount...I started out with way too much and ended up going in the opposite direction and then coming full circle.
Duplicates in general. You don't need two flashlights. Or two cook pots. Or really two of anything except maybe a backup lighter. If you've got two of anything in your pack seriously reconsider it.

TTT
10-15-2017, 16:58
My nightmare is zips. There is no standard as to how it un-clips at the bottom.
My nightmare is converting miles to kilometers and gallons to liters
My nightmare is converting Fahrenheit to centigrade
My nightmare is converting European to USA to Asian sizes

DownEaster
10-15-2017, 17:50
Duplicates in general. You don't need two flashlights. Or two cook pots. Or really two of anything except maybe a backup lighter. If you've got two of anything in your pack seriously reconsider it.
How about water bottles? A second SmartWater bottle adds very little weight, and the difference between one and zero liters of water carrying capacity (should one bottle break) is huge.

MuddyWaters
10-15-2017, 19:15
How about water bottles? A second SmartWater bottle adds very little weight, and the difference between one and zero liters of water carrying capacity (should one bottle break) is huge.

Ummmm...it go without saying that if you actually NEED two of something, its not redundant. If you need to carry 2L, not a problem. If you need 1, and carry a spare...thats redundant.

Yeah, can use a single 2L platy, it holds 2.5L at only 1.27 oz, but its a bit unwieldy as a container to put in side pockets and drink out of , two smaller bottles works better
Ive gotten holes in bottles and patched with duct tape.
In a pinch you can carry water in ziplocks, food packaging, pack liner, cook pot, etc. I have carried 2L in gallon ziplocks as contingency containers before. Or even hike source to source.

Lone Wolf
10-15-2017, 19:39
would not buy any water filter/treatment. walkin' sticks, anything titanium, cuben fiber, down filled anything, $150 trail "shoes" that last 300 miles

KCNC
10-15-2017, 19:48
cheap liquor, after all it is vacation - I should have bought the good stuff

I quit buying cheap liquor before I was 22. If I can't afford to buy decent liquor I'll just make iced tea until I can.

KCNC
10-15-2017, 21:03
My nightmare is zips. There is no standard as to how it un-clips at the bottom.
My nightmare is converting miles to kilometers and gallons to liters
My nightmare is converting Fahrenheit to centigrade
My nightmare is converting European to USA to Asian sizes

As someone who travels in Europe a fair bit I feel your pain.

1 km = .6 miles
1 liter = ~.25 gallon (1 quart)
F to C (rough) subtract 30, divide by 2 (60F comes out as 15C, it's really 15.5)
C to F - double and add 30

These will at least keep you in the neighborhood and I find they're pretty easy to remember.

For sizes, afraid I can't help there, except most shoes have both listed on the tongue.

Leo L.
10-16-2017, 05:20
As an European who is reading US stuff a lot, I find it very easy to deal with different units:

Miles to kilometers:
Our hikes in the Alps are so much more tedious and difficult, that you are not too far off to think of 1 km equals to 1 mile.
On a really tough hiking day I might cover 20km horizontal, so I belive that I could hike a 20 miles per day pace in your part of the world.

Liter to gallon:
US hikers are educated to drink so much more water than we do, so while you might calculate a gallon a day, we calculate a liter per day.

Thanks for the rough conversion of temperatures, I was missing this so far.

Regarding sizes, we hardly buy new clothes or shoes, just use old stuff for the outdoors.


To the original topic, If I were buying new gear now, I would not buy again:
Ultralight stuff like the Exped UL sleeping bag I'm using now.
It works, but is so terrible flimsy, made of such thin and fragile material, that I'm constantly afraid that it will suddenly break.
And, its cut very narrow and with a short zip only, so I can slip in only just-so, and lie straight on the back and not move around much at all.
Next buy, I will go for the "Light" version, not the "Ultralight".

Berserker
10-23-2017, 11:13
I consider everything I bought when I started part of the learning process, but just to give the short answer to your question about 95% of my original gear. I started off with an Osprey Crescent 90 pack, some huge super heavy Thermarest pads, a large overrated synthetic bag, and a bunch of other unnecessary crap.

Berserker
10-23-2017, 11:14
I've gone to the cottage industry folks for a while now and really like their stuff.
For packs, tents and some of the other larger items I concur.

Berserker
10-23-2017, 11:52
Down gear. I've got a sleeping bag, jacket, two vests, and booties made of down, and I'm bringing none of it on the AT. Instead I'm taking a new synthetic bag, jacket, and vest with me for next year's through-hike.

The AT is a wet trail. If the humidity rises during the night (typically with increasing temperatures) you can wake up in a sweat-soaked sleeping bag or quilt. The bag/quilt won't dry out until the humidity goes down, and wet down is useless. Wet synthetic insulation is miserable, but won't kill you. You can try to keep your down gear out of streams and the rain, but sweating and respiration (if you tuck your face inside the bag/quilt in your sleep) can still cause problems.
To each his own. Been using down gear (bag and coat) on the AT for years, and have had no issues. Been out in rain for a week at a time, and the worst was a little dampness on the down items after several days.