View Full Version : Why?
It appears that on occasion we become so consumed with why someone chooses to employ different gear or ideas or techniques than we would.
A great example is;
1. The tech versus no-tech argument
2. Or the tent versus tarp argument
I’m not looking to understand these arguments but rather why we want to judge other people by our standards.
I understand if the individual is not practicing LNT or if the individual is possibly exposing themselves to danger from a lack of general or specific knowledge. I also understand if someone asks your opinion on a specific piece of gear or technique.
An individual’s opinion is related to his/her experiences, training, etc.
How do we encourage a HYOH mentality with become snobs along the way.
TF
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Uncle Joe
10-17-2017, 15:44
A product of relative anonymity. Most forums are this way, sadly.
colorado_rob
10-17-2017, 15:47
A product of relative anonymity. Most forums are this way, sadly.Agree, except the "sad" part. It's just the way it is when folks "converse" and they are not face to face. I've seen it on many forums (fora?). No big deal, just expect snarkiness and some rudeness on here and elsewhere, still a very valuable tool for exchanging ideas.
Sarcasm the elf
10-17-2017, 16:07
Seems like a good time to dig this one up. :D
https://pmags.com/hike-my-hike-damn-it-hmhdi
Uncle Joe
10-17-2017, 16:10
It's still a valuable resource, agreed, it would just be nice if people sought to rise above. Sad? I believe so. I certainly find no joy in reading rude posts. It doesn't bring out the best in people. I'm often tempted to respond in kind. Which isn't good.
illabelle
10-17-2017, 16:14
A product of relative anonymity. Most forums are this way, sadly.
Anonymity for sure, and also the missed cues that occur without face-to-face interaction. Without being on here a while and getting a feel for the personalities behind the user names, it's hard to know what someone's words really mean.
MuddyWaters
10-17-2017, 16:21
Discussing relative merits is not same as trying to convince someone to do it your way.
and also the missed cues that occur without face-to-face interaction
That's a big one. It can be difficult to convey humor in writing. I think I'm hilarious, but I know I've hit the wrong chord many times. I do try to keep it positive and only post when I have something I think I can contribute, but it doesn't always work out that way.
To the OP question, of course we want to judge others by our own standards, we don't know any others.
I think it's just the way people are on a lot of topics.
We get this idea that the way we do things is the right or enlightened way, and feel the need to spread that idea to others. The littlest amount of resistance or unwillingness by others to do things the way we like to do them causes confusion and anger, or a feeling that we're not being heard "Why would you possibly use X when you could save 6 ounces by using Y??!!".
Showing an understanding of the other person's point of view and a willingness to compromise is the only way to really settle a debate(and eventual argument), especially on the internet.
Slo-go'en
10-17-2017, 18:02
Why not?
Every gear choice has it's pro's and con's. One must understand the limitations or advantages of various choices, taking in account where, when and how far you'll go.
Take the tent/hammock choice. Both have valid advantages and disadvantages. Listen to what people like and dislike about the two systems and try to decide which system you want to invest in. Unless you can try both and then make up your mind.
nsherry61
10-17-2017, 20:38
. . . why we want to judge other people by our standards. . .
I think it helps us validate ourselves. Why is it important for my wife to be right in an argument when, to me, the object is to figure out the best option regardless of the source of the idea?
I think it's tied to our self worth and acknowledgement by other people that our ideas are valid and valued to verify that we, ourselves, are valued.
As for nurturing the HYOH philosophy, I don't really care, except, in the end, more people have more fun in the outdoors if they can discover and then hike their own hike, and I do care about people getting out and having fun outdoors. So, to me, HYOH is really mostly a reminder to those of us giving advice to remember that other people that also enjoy the things we enjoy don't always enjoy them exactly the same way, and therefore, we should make an effort to be cognoscente of that so we can get back to having fun in a way that works for each of us instead of trying to force others have have fun in the same way we do.
How to nurturer HYOH? When we see one person trying to force their hike on someone else, or when we see someone trying to force themselves into a hiking style that doesn't work for them, speak (type?) up. Call each other on it when we see it. Congratulate each other when we do a good job of promoting HYOH.
I'm having to work on promoting HYOH within my own home. I've spent enough nights on the ground to know I'd like to try something different. From backyards to campsites to clear spots beside a trail - I never fail to find the spot with the rocks and roots that will bubble up from just beneath the surface overnight. My son is a hard-core stomach sleeper (and 26 years younger) so he's fine with a tent. We can both have what we want with negligible weight difference. This is just one example of several differences that we talk over regularly. None of them are critical issues from a warmth/safety standpoint, so there's no need to get torqued down over anything. It's not as easy when you don't have a clear picture of the premise of the question that someone is asking.
Ultimately I hope to join him for the first couple of weeks of his thru hike (a longer stretch than either of us have been out at any one time) and when we get back to the car he can have some options snd we'll both have a better idea of what works (and more important, what doesn't) for each of us. Who knows, we might be ready to swap at that point.
Patience and understanding is probably something we can all practice better at one time or another.
Thanks to the OP for making me think.
I think along those same lines. It validates ourselves....more of an inward pointing thing usually than the outward judging of others that is projected by it.
it helps us to think through our ideas and try to justify to ourselves that we are doing the right thing.....that I am doing the right thing for "me"....doesn't have to be the right thing for "you"....but it helps to have folks to agree to verify our thinking. Maybe helps our own ego while we're at it.....
fiddlehead
10-17-2017, 21:22
why someone chooses to employ different gear or ideas or techniques than we would.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why?
Well, why would you even go into a gear forum, if not to learn different ideas or techniques.
Or to give your opinion.
I don't understand.
Starchild
10-17-2017, 21:29
I didn't like hammocks, they sleep way too comfy in them. So I make up some **** in my mind to make it seem what they are doing is wrong, and how they are ruining it for the rest of us. I get up on my soapbox and peach it to many. I convert others to my view and make more **** up, like how they are harming trees, I then have all those folks echoing my views as if it was their own. I realize my mistake, repent of my error, welcome my brother sister hanger hiker and am saved. However the hordes I have converted to anti-hanging are still out there, lurking in tents in the backcountry campgrounds just seething about thoughts hamocking just a few yards away. They need help and love in rder to reach their heart and have them see the light as I did. God bless them.
Ashepabst
10-17-2017, 21:33
...just making conversation. you guys seem more interested in this stuff than my other acquaintances.
Traveler
10-18-2017, 06:33
...just making conversation. you guys seem more interested in this stuff than my other acquaintances.
I would imagine if you go to a fine wine based forum you'll find that group of people more interested in that stuff than most of your other acquaintances too.
cmoulder
10-18-2017, 07:10
Why?
Well, why would you even go into a gear forum, if not to learn different ideas or techniques.
Or to give your opinion.
I don't understand.
I agree.
Debating the merits of this vs that is not being judgmental as long as the conversation doesn't end with "You're wrong and I'm right."
"Tent vs tarp" is not an argument if you're discussing the strengths and weaknesses of each in different environments. If at the end of the process, and having all available information and opinions, someone chooses a system that I have found to be inadequate for me — such as tarp-only in an environment with a lot of insects — all I can say is good luck and please let us know how it turned out. We've all had to learn things the hard way sometimes.
I’m not looking to understand these arguments but rather why we want to judge other people by our standards.I have to judge people by my standards because my way is the only right way. So if you're not doing it the same way I'm doing it, then well, you're doing it wrong. And its my responsibility as a good citizen to point that out to you and rub your nose in it if necessary.
It'll be easier for you to understand once you acknowledge you've been living your life all wrong up until now.
The title of the thread was, "Have we all been brainwashed into using tents?"
This is a deliberately provocative and pejorative way of introducing the topic. It casts doubt on the credulity of those who use tents.
It's not what one would say if one were looking for an honest, open discussion. So in this case, all "blame" goes to the OP, and the thread title.
Kaptainkriz
10-18-2017, 10:32
Epic! I really need to get one of those fancy goretex laminate capes. :-?
Seems like a good time to dig this one up. :D
https://pmags.com/hike-my-hike-damn-it-hmhdi
colorado_rob
10-18-2017, 11:02
The title of the thread was, "Have we all been brainwashed into using tents?"
This is a deliberately provocative and pejorative way of introducing the topic. It casts doubt on the credulity of those who use tents.
It's not what one would say if one were looking for an honest, open discussion. So in this case, all "blame" goes to the OP, and the thread title.Yep, great example of a thread that creates some minor conflict, for some at least, right off the bat. What's nice about donating $10 to WB is that you can permanently turn a thread off from ever seeing it again.
cmoulder
10-18-2017, 11:14
The old "loaded question".... when did you stop beating your wife? .... are you one of those stupid people who xxxxx? :(
BuckeyeBill
10-18-2017, 11:20
I thought it was "Are you still beating your wife?" :eek:
I have to judge people by my standards because my way is the only right way. So if you're not doing it the same way I'm doing it, then well, you're doing it wrong. And its my responsibility as a good citizen to point that out to you and rub your nose in it if necessary.
It'll be easier for you to understand once you acknowledge you've been living your life all wrong up until now.
As one who hikes my own hike, and for whom the approbation of strangers means little — I am perfectly cool with that.
As one who still learns from Whiteblaze and other forums, I would much prefer direct, heart-felt and passionate opinions (and even advise) over one’s that are designed to stroke my ego and preserve my feelings.
Part of being a man, I think.
Of course, times are changing and for the sake of the more easily bruised personalities out there it’s is probably good to pepper one’s post with a few stock phrases like:
”I see exactly what you are saying, but ...”
”Good idea”
”Interesting point. What do you think about ...”
Not to mention a smiley face.
nsherry61
10-19-2017, 10:37
The title of the thread was, "Have we all been brainwashed into using tents?"
This is a deliberately provocative and pejorative way of introducing the topic. It casts doubt on the credulity of those who use tents.
It's not what one would say if one were looking for an honest, open discussion. So in this case, all "blame" goes to the OP, and the thread title.
Being the OP on the quoted thread, I must accept the blame for my wording. Provocative, yes. Pejorative, I hope not.
If you read the thread (if you haven't already), or even my first post in it, I hope you will notice that there is no attempt at disparaging tent users, but rather disparaging the assumption that tents are, by default, a necessary tool for sleeping in the backcountry.
My attempt, and I think the actual direction of the thread, has been very much opening discussion about the origin of our assumptions, not our chosen practices.
Being the OP on the quoted thread, I must accept the blame for my wording. Provocative, yes. Pejorative, I hope not.
If you read the thread (if you haven't already), or even my first post in it, I hope you will notice that there is no attempt at disparaging tent users, but rather disparaging the assumption that tents are, by default, a necessary tool for sleeping in the backcountry.
My attempt, and I think the actual direction of the thread, has been very much opening discussion about the origin of our assumptions, not our chosen practices.
you were fine it was clear what your intentions were - overly thin skins abound on the interwebs...
Why do we want people to think and be like us? There is never one approach trail in life unless you are myopically minded. Viva la difference as the French say.
squeezebox
10-20-2017, 15:15
If you want serious fascism head over to bikeforum.net/touring the heavier the better. And worse.
AllDownhillFromHere
10-20-2017, 16:40
When a large percentage of the hobby comes down to personal style and preference, it's unproductive to make definitive statements like "X is better than Y", without qualifying them with "... for me".
perdidochas
10-20-2017, 17:04
Agree, except the "sad" part. It's just the way it is when folks "converse" and they are not face to face. I've seen it on many forums (fora?). No big deal, just expect snarkiness and some rudeness on here and elsewhere, still a very valuable tool for exchanging ideas.
This is actually a fairly tame board for the most part. The only boards I've been on that are less argumentative are hammock forums and Bushcraft USA. You'll always get some snarkiness online.
gwschenk
10-23-2017, 09:34
Why? Because I set the standard. Sorry to have to state the obvious. The rest of you n00bs need to get onboard. Now!
Back in prehistory, people read books. One read of (for example) Colin Fletcher's "Complete Walker" would probably summarize 99% of the gear discussions that ever took place on this forum. That's just one book of many.
What the forum does show is that for 100 hikers, there are 150 ways to git 'er done. All our clever schemes work, except when they don't.
Arguing about gear is pointless.
Hiker to Bryson: What made you buy a Gregory pack?
Bryson to Hiker: Well, I thought it would be better than carrying everything in my arms.
The audience participation at WhiteBlaze is composed of a rather small gene pool focused on an even smaller hiking environment.
Wayne
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In my humble opinion, if someone seeks information on the internet, and especially an online forum, they should be prepared to tune out crap such as personal attacks and soapbox statements and focus on getting the actual info they need. If someone seeks to "disparage" another person's assumption, they should enter the fray with a very thick skin. Just my opinion and just what works for me. Post your own post :)
rocketsocks
10-24-2017, 02:27
Back in prehistory, people read books. One read of (for example) Colin Fletcher's "Complete Walker" would probably summarize 99% of the gear discussions that ever took place on this forum. That's just one book of many.
What the forum does show is that for 100 hikers, there are 150 ways to git 'er done. All our clever schemes work, except when they don't.
Arguing about gear is pointless.
Hiker to Bryson: What made you buy a Gregory pack?
Bryson to Hiker: Well, I thought it would be better than carrying everything in my arms.pretty much sums her up...can the last person to leave please turn off lights.
cmoulder
10-24-2017, 06:17
Being the OP on the quoted thread, I must accept the blame for my wording. Provocative, yes. Pejorative, I hope not.
If you read the thread (if you haven't already), or even my first post in it, I hope you will notice that there is no attempt at disparaging tent users, but rather disparaging the assumption that tents are, by default, a necessary tool for sleeping in the backcountry.
My attempt, and I think the actual direction of the thread, has been very much opening discussion about the origin of our assumptions, not our chosen practices.
OK, however I still don't buy the argument that tarping is somehow a "wilder outdoor experience" than using a tent... or whatever. For me it always comes down to the right tool for the job and sometimes when I choose the wrong tool I get whapped.
I used a bivy the last 4 nights around Stratton, so was that and even wilder experience? Nope. I had a strong 4G signal on the smartphone and checked the weather forecast, found 0% chance of rain and therefore didn't bother stringing up the tarp. I guess that was "managing risk," heh. :)
squeezebox
10-25-2017, 17:14
It was right around when she stopped beating me !
nsherry61
10-26-2017, 09:53
OK, however I still don't buy the argument that tarping is somehow a "wilder outdoor experience" than using a tent...
Obviously, it's quite personal. In generally, I feel that in a particular situation (place and time) in most cases (depending on your tarp pitch and tent zip), a tarp is more exposed and "wild" than a tent. That being said, many people would be willing to pitch a tent in "wilder" places they would not try and sleep if they only had a tarp, so for them, the tent provides, maybe, a wilder experience.
For me, in most backpacking (not mountaineering) situations, I find sleeping under the stars or under a tarp to be a more open and wild experience, because frankly, most backpacking is done along relatively sheltered corridors during seasons with relatively moderate weather where, for me, tents are overly isolating.
And, for what it's worth, when one zips themselves into a bivy, to me, it's more like an super small tent than an open tarp. But, if one sleeps in a bivy with their head outside to be covered up if it rains or the bugs get bad, then it's more like cowboy camping. I think the trick is to play with the options (instead of assuming an ideal) and figure out what makes each experience best for each of us.
It appears that on occasion we become so consumed with why someone chooses to employ different gear or ideas or techniques than we would.
A great example is;
1. The tech versus no-tech argument
2. Or the tent versus tarp argument
I’m not looking to understand these arguments but rather why we want to judge other people by our standards.
I understand if the individual is not practicing LNT or if the individual is possibly exposing themselves to danger from a lack of general or specific knowledge. I also understand if someone asks your opinion on a specific piece of gear or technique.
An individual’s opinion is related to his/her experiences, training, etc.
How do we encourage a HYOH mentality with become snobs along the way.
TF
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Same deal in just about any equipment-related forum out there. If someone has something that works for them, that means it works for everybody, right? ;)
wookinpanub
10-26-2017, 11:13
On my Southbound thru I got to see a lot of hikers headed the opposite direction. One of the beauties of the trail, to me, was seeing the diversity of equipment and how people were meeting their essential needs. I saw someone who had gotten all of their equipment at Kmart, another one who got all of their gear at an army surplus store, another who made their equipment, another who had cut a deal with some high-end manufacturers and had all proto-type equipment. ALL of these folks were making it just fine. I like learning about new equipment and methods and also learning about old methods. I certainly don't think everyone should do things the way I do and I still get a kick out of seeing what folks put together to get out there.
English Stu
10-26-2017, 11:25
I think a lot of conversations on the trail come from people seeing how you are operating. On here or on the trail it is not useful to either party to give unsolicited advice on gear or technique; it is likely to come across as boasting and nobody likes being told that they have bought the wrong stuff and wasted their hard earned cash. If asked I do think it fair to give information to people especially those new to hiking so that they have information to make a reasoned choice on items.
Maineiac64
10-26-2017, 12:54
I also participate in a couple of firearm forums that are focused on a very specific model of pistol (1911) it is a bit worse for that subject, especially when a model starts to get negative user feedback; people who own that make/model take it as a personal afront and attack.
MtDoraDave
10-30-2017, 07:25
I also participate in a couple of firearm forums that are focused on a very specific model of pistol (1911) it is a bit worse for that subject, especially when a model starts to get negative user feedback; people who own that make/model take it as a personal afront and attack.
Tent vs tarp, silnylon vs cuben, 1911 vs Glock.
Even though we all share a common interest, in this case the outdoors/ hiking, we still want to be accepted, liked, validated etc. I think it's part of our basic human programming of being social animals. We have learned to put people down who do it differently than us because we want to be "right" - and if I'm right, clearly you are wrong. The most incendiary topic to demonstrate this would be politics. I don't know when it got SO divisive, but the left vs the right battle is downright crazy nowadays, both sides thinking their side is correct and the other side is completely and irreparably wrong! Religion is another great example of this. We don't discuss those topics on this type of forum because of their incendiary nature and our general inability to be open minded and "civil" to people who believe differently than we do.
I'm no psychologist, but I think I'm close to the truth of the situation... and if you disagree with me you are wrong! ;) (just joking, in case you missed the winky face)