Single vs Double Walled Tents [Archive]

colorado_rob

11-01-2017, 11:55

I'll respond by saying both have their uses depending on where/when you're using them. For the AT, I think a single walled Cuben fiber tent is nearly ideal most of the time, except early starts (Feb-March) or late finishes (October).

But the more traditional double walled tents tend to be warmer and tend to handle condensation a bit better; the reason single walled tents run colder is because you basically have to vent them more than double-walled, so you almost basically sleeping at the outside temps. Double wall tents run maybe 5-6 degrees (or more) warmer inside while still be reasonable ventilated.

So when we're backpacking in the CO high country in the fall through the spring, we grab our heavier double wall tent. For mid-summer, we grab our zpacks cuben.

I answered "single wall" because we tend to use that tent more often these days.

Crossup

11-01-2017, 12:00

colorado_rob

11-01-2017, 12:20

Seems to me a poll doesnt have much value without context- you make no mention of your intended use. I'm sure you know single wall tents are not good for rainy or high humidity trail use and double wall are extra weight for desert use for example. So any poll results would mean little without out that info and if you want to use it every where then you are probably better off with two tents if weight is a concern as it appears.Agree and disagree.... Yeah, context would be nice but I've found that the "default" on WB is simply hiking the At during the "normal" hiking season...

And disagree on your statement about single walled tents in wet and high humidity areas... In some ways they are BETTER, not worse than double walled tents. Especially when they are cuben fiber single walled tents; this fabulous material does not absorb water, so dries much quicker.

Basically on the AT in the spring/summer, your tent will be wet in the morning, no matter what type you have. Your fly will be soaked on a double walled tent, though the inner tent might be fairly dry. Your single walled tent will be wet too, but again, if it's cuben, shake it off and put it away and you won't be carrying a pint of extra water that you would be with your double wall sil-nylon tent.

And since single walled tents are highly ventilated, I've found the condensation is really not any worse, for all intents and purposes.

I hiked half the AT with a double walled tent. Then I finally bought a cuben single walled tent, and finished with it. I MUCH preferred, even ignoring the weight savings, using the single walled tent.

Crossup

11-01-2017, 12:32

I guess thats what I get for regurgitating what I read here and in gear guides...I see your point and wish cuben was in my future but not likely.

Agree and disagree.... Yeah, context would be nice but I've found that the "default" on WB is simply hiking the At during the "normal" hiking season...

And disagree on your statement about single walled tents in wet and high humidity areas... In some ways they are BETTER, not worse than double walled tents. Especially when they are cuben fiber single walled tents; this fabulous material does not absorb water, so dries much quicker.

Basically on the AT in the spring/summer, your tent will be wet in the morning, no matter what type you have. Your fly will be soaked on a double walled tent, though the inner tent might be fairly dry. Your single walled tent will be wet too, but again, if it's cuben, shake it off and put it away and you won't be carrying a pint of extra water that you would be with your double wall sil-nylon tent.

And since single walled tents are highly ventilated, I've found the condensation is really not any worse, for all intents and purposes.

I hiked half the AT with a double walled tent. Then I finally bought a cuben single walled tent, and finished with it. I MUCH preferred, even ignoring the weight savings, using the single walled tent.

colorado_rob

11-01-2017, 12:38

I guess thats what I get for regurgitating what I read here and in gear guides...I see your point and wish cuben was in my future but not likely. There's a guy on WB with a brand-new zpacks solo+ for sale below retail.... I can't say enough good things about this tent. 15 ounces of excellent protection and pure hiking bliss... Like they say about expensive gear: It only hurts once! Cheap gear might hurt every time you use it. Just sayin'.

nsherry61

11-01-2017, 14:33

Didn't vote because my preferred shelter is single walled but not a tent.
Lighter weight than a tent. Faster to pitch than a tent. More versatile than a tent. Less expensive than a tent.

ggreaves

11-01-2017, 15:34

if you stick with a tarp and not a tent, you won't have condensation issues at all. If you want to make sure you're never wet from above or below or uncomfortable when tarp camping, string up a hammock underneath it. I also agree with colorado_rob that cuben is a great tarp material because the morning shakeoff will get 90% of the moisture off of it. A quick wipe down with a microfiber towel will get another 8% of the moisture off. Then you can throw the tarp in your pack and know you won't get anything else wet. No more extra weight carrying rain water and condensation around. On another note, having a pack made from cuben or XPac will make sure your stuff stays dry and you won't need a pack cover. It's nice to pick up your pack in the morning and have it weigh the same or less than it did yesterday.

Franco

11-01-2017, 22:29

if you stick with a tarp and not a tent, you won't have condensation issues at all.
Tarps can drip on you just like a tent fly does
If you want to make sure you're never wet from above or below or uncomfortable when tarp camping, string up a hammock underneath it.
Yes and then you have the weight of a double wall tent or more
I also agree with colorado_rob that cuben is a great tarp material because the morning shakeoff will get 90% of the moisture off of it. A quick wipe down with a microfiber towel will get another 8% of the moisture off. Then you can throw the tarp in your pack and know you won't get anything else wet. No more extra weight carrying rain water and condensation around. On another note, having a pack made from cuben or XPac will make sure your stuff stays dry and you won't need a pack cover. It's nice to pick up your pack in the morning and have it weigh the same or less than it did yesterday.
Cuben backpacks are not watertight unless designed to be so. Even if taped that tape can come off so you are back to a pack that can leak.

Franco

11-01-2017, 22:32

Failed to paste with added replies.. My comments got mixed with the original text and I can't edit...

jjozgrunt

11-02-2017, 03:16

I've got 2 zpacks tent, the duplex newest and the solo plus both in the .74 oz material, for the aussie bush. I usually use the solo+ when I solo but after using the duplex for the first 20+ days on the AT this year I think I will carry it on all walks in the future. Solo Plus for sale at some time, when I get around to it.

ggreaves

11-02-2017, 08:59

Failed to paste with added replies.. My comments got mixed with the original text and I can't edit...
1. The only way tarps can drip on you is if they have condensation on the inside. When you pitch it 5 or 6 feet off the ground like you do for a hammock, that doesn't happen.
2. My hammock weighs 16.5 oz. My tarp weighs 6.5 oz. 23 oz total. A double wall Big Agnes Fly Platinum Creek HV UL1 weighs 23 oz . A single wall protrail weighs 26oz. There are lots of cuben options < 23oz but not by enough that it's worth the compromise in comfort imho. This isn't to say that a hammock and tarp will have less weight bulk than a ground system. In general, it won't. Just that if you want to have an ultralight base weight, it's more than possible with a hammock setup.
3. A seam taped cuben pack is highly water resistant - not water tight. And, of course it's dependent on the construction technique - seam taping etc. The fabric, however, doesn't absorb any water and it's going to keep out more water than packs made of other fabrics when covered by a pack cover. Pack covers leave most of the suspension area of the pack uncovered and they just delay the inevitable.

nsherry61

11-02-2017, 10:28

1. The only way tarps can drip on you is if they have condensation on the inside. When you pitch it 5 or 6 feet off the ground like you do for a hammock, that doesn't happen. . .
Well, actually, if you have it pitched too close to your hammock or you have a tarp with closed ends, you can get condensation, but now we're picking nits and since a tarp's drip-line is not down onto a bathtub floor, a little condensation dripping down the tarp never heart anyone.

3. A seam taped cuben pack is highly water resistant - not water tight. And, of course it's dependent on the construction technique - seam taping etc. The fabric, however, doesn't absorb any water and it's going to keep out more water than packs made of other fabrics when covered by a pack cover. . .
I don't understand this waterproof pack desire people seem to have. If it's raining enough to soak a bunch of your gear, then your gear still needs to be carried, and most of us can't carry 100% of our wet and damp gear on the outside of our pack so we gotta carry wet gear inside our pack along with our dry stuff, so we still need to separate out our dry stuff inside our pack, so what's the advantage of a waterproof pack? . . . yeah, thread drift. Maybe I'll start another thread.

cmoulder

11-03-2017, 06:53

........... I also agree with colorado_rob that cuben is a great tarp material because the morning shakeoff will get 90% of the moisture off of it. A quick wipe down with a microfiber towel will get another 8% of the moisture off..........

I used to think this as well but I had an interesting — and surprising — experience that suggested otherwise.

Last spring I was testing a tarp/bivy setup, mostly for testing the bivy which was made for me by a friend. I intentionally went out for a quick overnighter when rain was forecast. The tarp was the HMG Echo II which is a cat cut 8.5'x8.5'x6.5', .74 cuben, weighing about 10.5 oz with guylines. (I weighed it with my digital scale but forgot to record it in geargrams library... however, this is pretty close.)

As hoped, there was a fair bit of rain all night and into the next morning. When I packed up for the short walk out (about an hour) I shook out the very wet tarp fairly vigorously to get rid of as much water as practically possible.

When I got home I weighed the wet tarp on the digital scale and the weight was something like 14.7 oz (again, from memory, but that is very close).

Yes, this a sample of one. However, IMO it is a very solid data point, enough to convince me that the weight of Cuben increases by about 40% when wet and that we are not shaking out as much water as we previously assumed. Of course some of this water weight was also in the guy lines (1.8mm), although it seems fair to include that because we all leave them attached to the tarp.

Also, this was fairly new .74 cuben... the percentage of water weight gain might be even higher with .51 cuben, or with older tarps that absorb more water.

40843

rocketsocks

11-03-2017, 07:21

Double wall tent to me refers to a true winter tent, the forth season, with two walls, not these mesh bug net screen things...talk about spindrift!

rocketsocks

11-03-2017, 07:22

Talk about manufacturer spindrift, Ugh.

colorado_rob

11-03-2017, 09:03

I used to think this as well but I had an interesting — and surprising — experience that suggested otherwise.

Last spring I was testing a tarp/bivy setup, mostly for testing the bivy which was made for me by a friend. I intentionally went out for a quick overnighter when rain was forecast. The tarp was the HMG Echo II which is a cat cut 8.5'x8.5'x6.5', .74 cuben, weighing about 10.5 oz with guylines. (I weighed it with my digital scale but forgot to record it in geargrams library... however, this is pretty close.)

As hoped, there was a fair bit of rain all night and into the next morning. When I packed up for the short walk out (about an hour) I shook out the very wet tarp fairly vigorously to get rid of as much water as practically possible.

When I got home I weighed the wet tarp on the digital scale and the weight was something like 14.7 oz (again, from memory, but that is very close).

Yes, this a sample of one. However, IMO it is a very solid data point, enough to convince me that the weight of Cuben increases by about 40% when wet and that we are not shaking out as much water as we previously assumed. Of course some of this water weight was also in the guy lines (1.8mm), although it seems fair to include that because we all leave them attached to the tarp.

Also, this was fairly new .74 cuben... the percentage of water weight gain might be even higher with .51 cuben, or with older tarps that absorb more water.

40843 Interesting, but 4 ounces of water remaining on the surface (as opposed to absorbed) does not seem at all unreasonable for a tarp/tent/fly made of Cuben. Shake all you want, but surface tension will cling water to any microscopically-rough surface. Wiping with a chamois, as mentioned below, would help. The real question is: how does cuben compare to sil-nylon.

What counts is not the percentage increase, but the delta weight increase, IMO. 4 ounces or 40% is a fairly minor increase for a soaked cuben tent, whereas a 10 ounce increase in a 48 ounce tent is only a bit over 20%, but way more significant of a weight increase. I suspect that for a sil-nylon tent, the soaked weight increase is more than 10 ounces though, but I've never weighed this to find out.

I'll try to get around to running a test; I have a 0.51 cuben zpacks solo+ (<16 oz) and a 0.74 zpacks duplex (25 oz), which are essentially the same size, and a sil-nylon BA copper spur 2 (~48 oz) of roughly the same size. I'll carefully weigh them bone dry, then soak all three tents, shake thoroughly, then reweigh. Then I'll chamois all three and weigh yet again. Simple!

hipbone

11-03-2017, 09:30

Interesting, but 4 ounces of water remaining on the surface (as opposed to absorbed) does not seem at all unreasonable for a tarp/tent/fly made of Cuben. Shake all you want, but surface tension will cling water to any microscopically-rough surface. Wiping with a chamois, as mentioned below, would help. The real question is: how does cuben compare to sil-nylon.

What counts is not the percentage increase, but the delta weight increase, IMO. 4 ounces or 40% is a fairly minor increase for a soaked cuben tent, whereas a 10 ounce increase in a 48 ounce tent is only a bit over 20%, but way more significant of a weight increase. I suspect that for a sil-nylon tent, the soaked weight increase is more than 10 ounces though, but I've never weighed this to find out.

I'll try to get around to running a test; I have a 0.51 cuben zpacks solo+ (<16 oz) and a 0.74 zpacks duplex (25 oz), which are essentially the same size, and a sil-nylon BA copper spur 2 (~48 oz) of roughly the same size. I'll carefully weigh them bone dry, then soak all three tents, shake thoroughly, then reweigh. Then I'll chamois all three and weigh yet again. Simple!Subscribed to this to see results. Will be interesting...also interested to see someone do this with a backpack with regards to a rain cover keeping the pack from taking on water (I use a rain cover to keep my pack from picking up water weight)

colorado_rob

11-03-2017, 09:36

Subscribed to this to see results. Will be interesting...also interested to see someone do this with a backpack with regards to a rain cover keeping the pack from taking on water (I use a rain cover to keep my pack from picking up water weight) I did soak and shake thoroughly my ULA OHM 2.0 pack (non-Cuben) a few years ago, when the pack was about 1.5 years old, IIRC it was about 6 ounces extra weight. So I consider my 1.5 ounce Cuben rain cover to be worth the weight for wet trails like the AT, but maybe not worth the weight here out west when a pack rarely gets soaked (I use a plastic bag liner pretty much everywhere to keep stuff inside dry). I need to repeat this little experiment with my new (6 months old) zpacks arc-haul which while still not cuben, seems to be very water tight and the fabric seems to be a lot less water absorbent. I just did a 3-week trip with the arc haul and did NOT carry a pack cover, and we did get a lot of rain, nothing got wet and the pack seemed to never get soaked.

JoeVogel

11-03-2017, 16:14

Venchka

11-03-2017, 16:21

If your poll had one more option: BOTH!
I could have voted accurately. I have owned 4 double wall tents and still have and use the two newest tents. I sold one of the earlier double wall tents to a friend and he likes it! I also own a solo single wall bombproof 4 season tent. With two solo and one 2 person tents I'm covered for whatever comes along. The double wall solo tent converts to a fitted tarp single wall shelter in about half a nano second.
Wayne

Venchka

11-03-2017, 16:28

Ok, next question. Does anyone know of a double walled tent that uses cuban fiber... or i guess it is called dyneema now. I know the point have using dyneema is so that you don't need to have a second wall because it is, for all inTENTsive purposes, totally water proof but I would still be interested to know if one exists. Or at least one that had a dyneema tarp/outer wall.
Add a Sea To Summit (or similar) bug net under a Cuban tarp and you have a double wall tent as currently produced by the industry.
My first two double wall tents had Two walls. A solid fabric with screened windows & doors and a solid over fly. Somewhere along the way, the solid inner tent became 95% mesh. Effectively a 1.25 wall tent.
When I bought new tents in the last 18 months, I selected a 2 person 3/4 solid wall inner tent and a solo solid wall inner tent. Getting back to the real double wall design. So far I am pleased with both tents.
Wayne

colorado_rob

11-03-2017, 17:24

Since I have a "free day" today, wife gone, errands run, I went ahead and did my little water absorption test I mentioned below. I share this in a separate thread titled "Cuben Fiber vs. Sil Nylon water absorption Test Results" in the general gear section. I was surprised at how much water cuben fiber DOES retain, but still, it is significantly better than sil-nylon.

cmoulder

11-03-2017, 17:32

zig-zag man

11-04-2017, 07:21

It's a moot point for me. I have discovered that at my age, I hate sleeping on the ground and am switching to a hammock setup. It may be another half pound penalty, but worth it for the comfort, IMO.

cmoulder

11-04-2017, 08:25

It's a moot point for me. I have discovered that at my age, I hate sleeping on the ground and am switching to a hammock setup. It may be another half pound penalty, but worth it for the comfort, IMO.

Interesting timing because I too am going to give hammocking a try after years of intense pressure from some of my rabidly hammock-loving friends. :D One of them even sent me THREE full hammock setups of different lengths to try, along with 2 underquilts and a winter tarp! These guys are relentless, LOL!!

I went to my local park yesterday and spent 3 hours setting up and 'test-driving' them and I must admit they are damn comfortable and far less fussy and complicated than I had imagined. And the total system weights are starting to rival the weights (and prices!) of similar ground combos.

JoeVogel

11-04-2017, 09:42

Interesting timing because I too am going to give hammocking a try after years of intense pressure from some of my rabidly hammock-loving friends. :D One of them even sent me THREE full hammock setups of different lengths to try, along with 2 underquilts and a winter tarp! These guys are relentless, LOL!!

I went to my local park yesterday and spent 3 hours setting up and 'test-driving' them and I must admit they are damn comfortable and far less fussy and complicated than I had imagined. And the total system weights are starting to rival the weights (and prices!) of similar ground combos.

When I am going solo I always use a hammock. Unless I know I will be in a geographical location that doesn't support hammock setup (ie: alpine hikes above treeline, it can sometimes be hard to find a place in the desserts of central Oregon, etc.) Way easier to set up and more comfortable.I prefer using a sleeping pad over an under-quilt because it helps keep the underside a little more ridged and flat. Definitely the way to go for a solo hike. However my wife much prefers sleeping in a tent so we go that route when I am hiking with her. I also share a tent when hiking with a buddy because it is might lighter to split a tent and share than bring a hammock setup.

Franco

11-04-2017, 21:44

[QUOTE=cmoulder;2178498]Interesting timing because I too am going to give hammocking a try after years of intense pressure from some of my rabidly hammock-loving friends. :D One of them even sent me THREE full hammock setups of different lengths to try, along with 2 underquilts and a winter tarp! These guys are relentless, LOL!!

40856

cmoulder

11-05-2017, 09:08

I love that one! :D

No shortage of enablers, eh?

egilbe

11-05-2017, 15:36

ggreaves

11-05-2017, 15:53

The saying goes “for all intents and purposes”

irregardless

egilbe

11-05-2017, 15:55

irregardless

*Triggered*

Venchka

11-05-2017, 21:05

So. Are these hammock thingies double or single wall? Or did Y’all just hijack and drift this thread?
👍😄😎
Wayne

Sarcasm the elf

11-05-2017, 21:51

The saying goes “for all intents and purposes”

irregardless

That's a myriad of good advice...

ggreaves

11-06-2017, 12:26

So. Are these hammock thingies double or single wall? Or did Y’all just hijack and drift this thread?

some might see it that way. However, when you hammock, you're in a single wall tarp shelter... with an asterisk. You sleep high and dry and level no matter the weather, without condensation, which is different than a single wall shelter on the ground.

JoeVogel

11-06-2017, 13:37

The saying goes “for all intents and purposes”

that makes a lot more sense.

Franco

11-08-2017, 17:44

purposes live in the water, why would they need a tent ?

saltysack

11-08-2017, 18:51

Well, actually, if you have it pitched too close to your hammock or you have a tarp with closed ends, you can get condensation, but now we're picking nits and since a tarp's drip-line is not down onto a bathtub floor, a little condensation dripping down the tarp never heart anyone.

I don't understand this waterproof pack desire people seem to have. If it's raining enough to soak a bunch of your gear, then your gear still needs to be carried, and most of us can't carry 100% of our wet and damp gear on the outside of our pack so we gotta carry wet gear inside our pack along with our dry stuff, so we still need to separate out our dry stuff inside our pack, so what's the advantage of a waterproof pack? . . . yeah, thread drift. Maybe I'll start another thread.

Good point.....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

poolskaterx

11-08-2017, 21:20

So. Are these hammock thingies double or single wall? Or did Y’all just hijack and drift this thread?

Wayne

Hijacked.

I use a single wall(ish) tent..? sort of. Hexamid solo plus. Location and pitch set up is important to keep condensation from happening- it's easy once ya get the hang of it. I like it, although it's not perfect but I haven't seen anything that will work better for my purposes.

Oh, for the record; I also have a bombproof 4-season double wall 3 person tent, an inexspensive double wall solo tent, and a double wall base camp tent/mansion.

Elaikases

11-08-2017, 21:39

I do wish that hammocks were lighter. I'd much more consider them if I could share a hammock for two with my wife and get less weight to carry too.

Elaikases

11-08-2017, 21:57

Huh. Looks like hammocks are getting lighter. e.g. https://www.rei.com/product/115038/kammok-roo-hammock?cm_mmc=aff_AL-_-145262-_-180150-_-NA&avad=180150_dff91461

Now, something like this, sleep flat for two (instead of one) http://www.jacksrbetter.com/shop/bear-mountain-bridge-hammock/

But it looks like the technology is getting better and lighter.

Still not seeing ones that are lighter than a tent, allow for side sleeping, etc.

But I have seen enough to start looking some more.

nsherry61

11-09-2017, 00:27

I do wish that hammocks were lighter. I'd much more consider them if I could share a hammock for two with my wife and get less weight to carry too.
Hammocks can be super light. Off the top of my head, ENO makes their Sub-7 which is a 7 oz hammock. I'm sure there are others. Combined with a light tarp you could easily have a sub 2 lb single-wall shelter system. Add a bug net to your hammock for another 1/2 pound and you still have a sub 3 lb, now double walled, shelter system. . . notice how I'm sorta staying on topic. :D :rolleyes:

However, in the end, using the same tarp and a polycryo ground sheet, no, you will never be as light in a hammock as you can going to ground. BUT, the added weight of a hammock can be minimal, and compared to a tent, quite comparable or lighter depending on the tent. Maybe depending on whether the tent is double or single walled.

Finally, I've never met a hammock that was comfortable to two . . . okay, I've seen those suspended tent things that strap between three trees that might be quite nice for two, but . . .

Rex Clifton

11-09-2017, 09:20

IMHO,I’ve got about the lightest COMFORTABLE hammock setup for my six foot 215 pound frame: Dutch Half Zip Wide single layer 1.6 (with whoopies) 16.3oz, tree straps & toggles 4.6oz, Hammock Gear 12 foot Cuben Fiber tarp with doors 13.0 oz (includes rigging), for a grand total of 33.9 oz, compared to my Zpacks Duplex at 21.2 oz. That’s a difference of 12.7 oz. Not such a big deal for short to mid length trips, but for long hikes I definitely wanna go with the Duplex.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro