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Feral Bill
11-08-2017, 18:09
Comments on this? https://www.outsideonline.com/2135771/your-gps-scrambling-your-brain I read it at the eye doctors.

johnspenn
11-08-2017, 18:25
I think there may be something to this. I've found myself becoming more reliant on GPS even though I've been to a place before. Not only that, but I don't pay attention because I know my GPS is going to tell me when and where to turn.

tiptoe
11-08-2017, 18:37
GPS is robotic instruction; maps (remember them?) offer context.

illabelle
11-08-2017, 21:21
Loved this article. I use a GPS sometimes, usually just to see what my ETA is. Much prefer to be knowledgeable about where I am and where I'm going.

AllDownhillFromHere
11-08-2017, 21:29
Follow the sun.

Sarcasm the elf
11-08-2017, 22:52
I just want to point out this part, which I find particularly accurate. I really do love GPS, but most of them seem to actively fight the user if one attempts to zoom out and orient themselves to useful landmarks on the digital map/


people are capable of orienting themselves within a city based on memories of traditional maps, which help us develop a larger perspective of an area. When you navigate by GPS, focusing only on a route without a broader spatial context, you never gain that perspective.

Lone Wolf
11-08-2017, 22:54
glad i don't own or use devices

rocketsocks
11-08-2017, 23:00
When the ‘Kessler Syndrome’ occurs, we’re all boned.

Game Warden
11-08-2017, 23:12
The pleasure of a paper map is akin to the pleasure of a book. You look at the map, often in downtime, and see places that all around you that you may never visit. You become mindful of the greater world, even just this corner of a state park or national forest.

Once upon a time in Pennsylvania, where north is south and vice versa, I knelt on the ground in a light drizzle with a map and compass to figure out where I was. Although I work outdoors every day, that remains one of my best and most treasured moments in the woods.

Uncle Joe
11-09-2017, 00:06
I’m a map geek but tend to use my GPS like a map, zooming out at times to see where I am in relation to things. I almost never use things like turn-by-turn.

nsherry61
11-09-2017, 00:30
The pleasure of a paper map is akin to the pleasure of a book. . .
Yeah, but I've pretty much quite reading paper books because my wife complains of the light at night and books take up more space and weight. I prefer reading on my phone. BUT, maps on the phone just don't come close to paper maps in hand with greater size and detail and reliability.

FWIW: I loved that story. It was a delightful read.

Leo L.
11-09-2017, 04:07
Honestly, I don't see much correlation between the story in this article and the way I (and may I assume, most other hikers) am/are using the GPS app.
My GPS app shows the true and official map of our country, including the Blue Dot indicating my current position, plus an arrow to show the direction I'm pointing the device at. It doesn't tell me "go right next junction 100 meters ahead", its up to me to decide where to go and to find the junction myself.
When hiking, I get a glimpse at the phone maybe several times per hour, especially when I'm looking for a nice place to have a break, the next lookout point, the nex potential camp spot, etc., I feel myself very much in sync with the map.
To make sure to stay alert, I constantly have to convert the directions (left/right) on the static map (North is always up on screen) into the directions I have to go, depending on my compass heading.

Driving in a car closes out so much of the country, like, uphill/downhill, total distance and elevation, clear view around, etc., sure its easy to get lost when you'r following the voice giving wrong info.

True, **** can happen, especially when you're tired. But I think it may happen less easy using a GPS app than a paper map, as long as you deal with each in the best way possible.

fiddlehead
11-09-2017, 08:25
That guy in the article, who typed in the wrong destination, got to see a part of Iceland that not many tourists get to see.
That's a huge plus in my book.
I use GPS when driving to take every back road I can.
I see people all over the world who are not used to seeing outsiders.
They get so friendly when they find out who you are and came to see THEIR part of the world. (usually)

I would never say GPS is a bad thing.
Use it.
Explore with it.
Have fun!

LittleRock
11-09-2017, 08:51
I shared this article with my wife. She always laughs at me because I spend lots of time looking at the map and memorizing the directions whenever I go somewhere new. But, whenever I get off course, I always realize it very quickly and find my way back.

D2maine
11-09-2017, 09:11
the same people who blindly follow a gps are the same ones that always got lost in pre-gps days. if you have any sense of navigation then gps is a tool just like a map is. sometimes its better than a map others it isn't

Crossup
11-09-2017, 09:28
I put calculators and GPS in the same category...neither has much value unless you have some idea of the desired answer. If you dont know a rough answer then you have no way of knowing if you entered incorrect data or did the wrong operations. Even if you do know what to expect, the main value of either is precision.

Unfortunately with GPS you are also dealing with a data base and interpretive algorithms which can mean it will take you to the exact destination but really ruin your day by the route taken. Had that happen in Jim Thorpe, PA- I knew it was going the right direction but it took me down a side street that was less than 8' wide, and I was towing a 96" wide trailer...15 minutes to go 300' and more stress than I care to remember. Fortunately the wheel track was a little less than 96" or it would have been really ugly.

Leo L.
11-09-2017, 09:41
Remembers me on an incident in Europe:

An elderly woman living 76km from Brussels, Belgium wanted to visit her friend in Brussels.
She got up early, setup the Navi in her car to what she belived was the correct address and got on the road.
The navi led her south through Germany and Austria, and knowing thet Belgium had more than a single language, she only slightly wondered about the traffic signs in foreign languages.
She only stopped at Zagreb, Kroatia, 1.325km from her starting point, maybe due to running out of gas and not being able to pay in her native currency- the news report left those details open.

So true what D2maine stated above:
The same people failing so miserabely with GPS would maybe do much worse with maps.

Sarcasm the elf
11-09-2017, 09:43
That guy in the article, who typed in the wrong destination, got to see a part of Iceland that not many tourists get to see.
That's a huge plus in my book.
I use GPS when driving to take every back road I can.
I see people all over the world who are not used to seeing outsiders.
They get so friendly when they find out who you are and came to see THEIR part of the world. (usually)

I would never say GPS is a bad thing.
Use it.
Explore with it.
Have fun!

I had the same experience driving from Florence to Aviano in Italy. My buddy who was driving used a borrowed GPS unit that bypassed the highways and routed us up widing roads over the italian alps. We ended up seeing villages that looked as if they had been largely unchanged for centuries.

ScareBear
11-09-2017, 10:00
Comments on this? https://www.outsideonline.com/2135771/your-gps-scrambling-your-brain I read it at the eye doctors.

I think a few things are going on here. The first is our general reliance/dependence upon technology. It's easy for those over 40 to forget that folks in their 20's have known nothing but smart phones, GPS, and the like. That was the first phase of directional "dumbing down". The lack of any base of knowledge about how things work. Why? Ask Siri. Or Google. Anything but learning it before you actually need it. The immediacy of information access replaced learning the essentially bases of knowledge. It did away with the ability to think critically and correctly(logically). The second phase was the lack of exposure to the outdoors as a youth, for a various number of reasons, not the least of which is technology. Kids in their 20's grew up far differently than those of us 50 and older. Technology replaced the pick up sports games and neighborhood teams and riding your bike everyday to get anywhere, etc...it kept kids inside. Even during their school breaks.

So, you combine a complete absence of base knowledge about how things work(navigation/sun/moon/stars, maps, compass, your car's internal combustion engine, the electricity in your home, why you drill a pilot hole, etc...) with a complete lack of experience in the outdoor world and this silly character in the article is what you get. Multiply that by about 90 percent of all of those Americans under age 25 and you can see where he's coming from...just sayin....

ZombieDust66
11-09-2017, 10:05
For every GPS excursion gone bad, there are million trips that arrived without incident.

Don’t blindly rely on GPS obviously.

How many times would you have missed a turn using paper maps instead of GPS?

It’s a great time time saver.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

KCNC
11-09-2017, 10:52
I'm a map geek. Absolutely love maps. I probably spend more time on Google Maps than any other website. I still buy a Rand McNally Road Atlas every couple of years, just to thumb through. I buy trail maps of places I *might* go, 'one day." I have map apps, I LOVE MAPS!!!

I also love my gadgets, but it is RARE that I blindly follow a gadget without having a reasonable idea of where I'm going when I set out. (This is why I love Google Maps, I can look at the map, check out some landmarks, then use the gadget to help navigate the best route based on things not obvious, such as one-way streets.)

Nothing will ever replace spatial awareness. I have it in spades, in high school I went to London on a school trip, it was my second visit in 5 years. I could come out of an Underground station and intuitively walk towards our destination based on my experience 5 years prior, much to the astonishment of everyone I was with. I don't just read maps, I study them. If you only look at where you want to go on the map and never look at where you might end up then you'll spend a lot of time finding yourself! Now, when I'm going to a new place, I'll check it out on Google Maps and even scan the area on street view. It's amazing how much easier it is to navigate a more "familiar" area, even when going there the first time.

Distance, direction, surrounding landmarks - the more you know, the less likely you are to get lost.

Unfortunately, most of my family can get lost in a round room with a single door unless you give them directions. Fortunately, they're quite good at following (and reversing) directions!

Bronk
11-09-2017, 10:56
Even with paper maps this can happen. I can't tell you how many "roads" are listed on topo maps that are totally impassable because they haven't been maintained in years or even decades. Without 4WD and a chainsaw you just aren't going to make it. I was frustrated to no end when I went to South Dakota a couple years ago...after more than 14 hours on the road I finally made it to my destination just an hour or two after the forest service office closed...no big deal, there was a kiosk with maps just outside the office. There was a larger and more detailed map on the board at the kiosk, but the road to my camping spot was clearly outlined on the paper maps they had available. So I got in the car and drove there. But just a few miles before my destination I came to a locked cattle gate with tire tracks across the pasture on the other side that disappeared in the distance. No way I was getting through there and not sure I should drive through there even if the gate weren't locked. So I went back into town and had another look at the more detailed map on the board. Found a different route. Went back out there and ran into another locked gate. Third time was the charm and I finally made it to my destination.

And Google maps is equally unable to distinguish between real roads and what used to be roads. More than once I've sent a tow truck out into the national forest to recover a vehicle whose owner thought that their GPS was sending them on a shortcut only to find that they were driving on a goat path through a foot of snow in the middle of nowhere.

rocketsocks
11-09-2017, 11:15
My peeve is loosing resolution while zooming in, for me it’s worth it to carry a map and see the broader picture at the same time, and in this case the eyes are way faster at opening windows so to speak by scanning multitudes of info and processing.

illabelle
11-09-2017, 11:16
KCNC, hey we might be siblings! I wouldn't call myself a map geek, but I do enjoy studying them. Ages ago my mother got several National Geographic maps, and they were passed down to me. I have a map of the moon, a map of Antarctica, a map of the ocean floor, and several maps of populated areas. It's fascinating to see the deep oceanic trenches and the ridges and the tiny little volcanic islands, and the areas where water is shallow - and then to imagine how ancient peoples might have migrated from here to there.

Completely agree with your comments about spatial awareness. My daughter, poor thing, can't cross the street without her GPS. Pre-GPS she and I were studying a simple route on the computer screen to a destination in downtown Knoxville, 20-25 minutes away. She left, and I was confident she'd have no trouble. Sometime later she called me for help. She had crossed the Tennessee River four times!


I'm a map geek. Absolutely love maps. I probably spend more time on Google Maps than any other website. I still buy a Rand McNally Road Atlas every couple of years, just to thumb through. I buy trail maps of places I *might* go, 'one day." I have map apps, I LOVE MAPS!!!

I also love my gadgets, but it is RARE that I blindly follow a gadget without having a reasonable idea of where I'm going when I set out. (This is why I love Google Maps, I can look at the map, check out some landmarks, then use the gadget to help navigate the best route based on things not obvious, such as one-way streets.)

Nothing will ever replace spatial awareness. I have it in spades, in high school I went to London on a school trip, it was my second visit in 5 years. I could come out of an Underground station and intuitively walk towards our destination based on my experience 5 years prior, much to the astonishment of everyone I was with. I don't just read maps, I study them. If you only look at where you want to go on the map and never look at where you might end up then you'll spend a lot of time finding yourself! Now, when I'm going to a new place, I'll check it out on Google Maps and even scan the area on street view. It's amazing how much easier it is to navigate a more "familiar" area, even when going there the first time.

Distance, direction, surrounding landmarks - the more you know, the less likely you are to get lost.

Unfortunately, most of my family can get lost in a round room with a single door unless you give them directions. Fortunately, they're quite good at following (and reversing) directions!

peakbagger
11-09-2017, 11:22
I still use a Delorme Gazateer as in the past they were updated on frequently and showed gates. I am not sure how often they will be updating them now that Garmin bought them.

rocketsocks
11-09-2017, 12:38
KCNC, hey we might be siblings! I wouldn't call myself a map geek, but I do enjoy studying them. Ages ago my mother got several National Geographic maps, and they were passed down to me. I have a map of the moon, a map of Antarctica, a map of the ocean floor, and several maps of populated areas. It's fascinating to see the deep oceanic trenches and the ridges and the tiny little volcanic islands, and the areas where water is shallow - and then to imagine how ancient peoples might have migrated from here to there.

Completely agree with your comments about spatial awareness. My daughter, poor thing, can't cross the street without her GPS. Pre-GPS she and I were studying a simple route on the computer screen to a destination in downtown Knoxville, 20-25 minutes away. She left, and I was confident she'd have no trouble. Sometime later she called me for help. She had crossed the Tennessee River four times!the old Mount Everest map is most impressive as well, love the sea floor map, had it pinned on my wall growing up.

Zea
11-09-2017, 13:58
I grew up relying on a GPS to get me around while driving... especially when I was new to it and didn't know the roads very well it was invaluable. A couple years back I bought a new GPS that turned out to be a piece of junk... half hour to find a satellite and then it loses it so frequently that it's practically useless. Anytime I have to be somewhere new now I just print off a google maps image/directions combo, or handwrite the directions if I don't have a printer around. Never once had an issue finding something, although occasionally it does take a little longer.

I bought a Garmin GPS for hiking last year and still have yet to use it except for a practice run of following a local gpx track. I think I'll really only carry it on winter trips, just as a safety net if I lose the trail. For whatever reason, I think a GPS takes a little bit of joy out of traveling for me sometimes, and at other times it creates new opportunities.

Another Kevin
11-09-2017, 16:44
My grandmother, who was in grade school about 1900, thought that using a slide rule made me stupider.

I love having a sensitive GPS receiver on my phone. When I'm trying to make a trail map, I don't need alidade, plane table, sighting rod, measuring chain, and a 4-man crew; I can pretty much just walk the trail a couple of times and transcribe the track.

But I figure that if I need the GPS to navigate, the battery will be dead. If I'm expecting any navigational issues (i.e., not bloody likely on a superhighway like the AT in summer), I'll have a paper map, a paper route card, a compass and an altimeter. (And generally have committed to memory an ultimate fallback like 'Down goes to the river. The river flows north and intersects Route 90. The way to the car is a right turn from that point.')

El JP
11-10-2017, 04:26
I think i've relied on GPS for route info exactly one time.

I used to drive for a living and for the most part it was rare that GPS gave a better route that could be plotted with a look at a map plus knowledge of road, traffic, and weather conditions. Despite the blazes and all I flat out will not go on the trail without map and compass. When i worked the parks we would have the occasional lost hiker/tourist situations and heard of way too many times when someone went the wrong way and got disorientated and compounded the problem by going in the wrong direction from safety. In certain places you can be less than 100 meters from a start point and be in deep kimchi if you go off on the wrong heading.

Rain Man
11-10-2017, 10:21
Am reading "Deep Survival" by Laurence Gonzales. So far he has discussed several examples (case studies) including those of hikers and others becoming lost. It's fascinating to read how the human brain and life experience lead victims down obviously wrong paths.

I'm not done with the book, but recommend it for those who might realize these things are not nearly so simplistic and "black or white" as superficial "analysis" might seem (or to put another way, might lead one astray to think).

For what it's worth, I love maps and actually had a college job drawing maps. Still, my GPS has gotten me around many, many hours of delays on road trips. I certainly appreciate and value that.

Use the right tool for the right job?

gwschenk
11-10-2017, 10:44
Here out west, I am beginning to see the beauty of total reliance of thrus on Halfmile and guthook apps. It restricts this horde of lemmings to a narrow stretch of trail only a few feet wide, leaving the rest of the penninsular, traverse, Sierra and Cascade ranges wild and free.

It's a shame, though, that these people miss out on some stunningly beautiful and rugged country.

TexasBob
11-10-2017, 11:22
I put calculators and GPS in the same category...neither has much value unless you have some idea of the desired answer.....

My grandmother, who was in grade school about 1900, thought that using a slide rule made me stupider..................

Number sense and directional sense are both something that people don't really develop without practice and using a bit of common sense. Technology is good but like Crossup says it can get you in trouble if you don't check the answers they give you against what you expect to find and what is reasonable.

rocketsocks
11-10-2017, 12:37
Am reading "Deep Survival" by Laurence Gonzales. So far he has discussed several examples (case studies) including those of hikers and others becoming lost. It's fascinating to read how the human brain and life experience lead victims down obviously wrong paths.

I'm not done with the book, but recommend it for those who might realize these things are not nearly so simplistic and "black or white" as superficial "analysis" might seem (or to put another way, might lead one astray to think).

For what it's worth, I love maps and actually had a college job drawing maps. Still, my GPS has gotten me around many, many hours of delays on road trips. I certainly appreciate and value that.

Use the right tool for the right job?great book!

rocketsocks
11-10-2017, 12:46
I think the problem comes for many not at the macro level, they know I’m in North American, I’m in Tenn, I’m on the AT, but at the local area...am I on this side of the valley or that, did we pass XXX, gps solves this. O’corse If you have time and enough food most will find there way home.

JJ505
11-12-2017, 18:24
I definitely have had GPS adventures (as I call them). I don't know what happens, maybe I put in the wrong address or something, but end up finding myself far off from where I started and not probably in the right direction. I agree that it becomes something of a crutch, but it does save time and energy. I don't learn other cities as much as I used to, unless this is my fourth time I've been there or something.

Odd Man Out
11-12-2017, 19:11
I will pour over as before visiting a new destination. As soon as I can spot a landmark, I visualize my location on my mental map. This happens repeatedly when traveling by subway in a big city. Everytime time I come up from underground I have to reorient my mental map. But I do find myself relying on GPS when driving, especially when going places I haven't been and did not have the chance to look over maps before hand. Reading a map while driving is tricky.

Game Warden
11-18-2017, 18:43
I drove from PA to Knoxville TN to see the eclipse; I car-camped at Shernando Lake in the Washington-Jefferson National Forest (a delightful spot near the AT). and used a GPS to Knoxville. The interstate highway was jammed with out-of-state vehicles heading south, and I despaired of reaching my destination in time. I had a Rand McNally US road atlas with me, and discovered a county road paralleling the interstate. It was crowded, but moving, and all local vehicles. I made it in time to see the eclipse, thanks to Rand McNally.

Traveler
11-19-2017, 07:10
I drove from PA to Knoxville TN to see the eclipse; I car-camped at Shernando Lake in the Washington-Jefferson National Forest (a delightful spot near the AT). and used a GPS to Knoxville. The interstate highway was jammed with out-of-state vehicles heading south, and I despaired of reaching my destination in time. I had a Rand McNally US road atlas with me, and discovered a county road paralleling the interstate. It was crowded, but moving, and all local vehicles. I made it in time to see the eclipse, thanks to Rand McNally.

While not disparaging maps, most GPS devices for cars generate maps based on fastest time of travel. These devices typically have a selection "switch" to filter out multi-lane state and interstate highways, which are usually included in fastest time routing. Discovering this feature provides routing using secondary and tertiary roads and can save a considerable amount of time when traffic snarls up.

cmoulder
11-19-2017, 09:03
Even quicker if using smartphone and Google Maps with real-time traffic updates. The caveat there being that you need a cell signal, of course.

This got me around a mondo construction back-up on I-81 in PA and used backroads to get me home going thru Connecticut during afternoon rush hours. :)