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biloute
11-14-2017, 22:23
If you use an odor barrier bag, like opsack, do you still need an Ursack or something similar, or does it block odor enough that critters and bears wouldn’t be interested and you can just use a drysack?

If you do use an Ursack, can you give your review/opinion on which one to get? My husband and I would be hiking together, so would we each carry our own food or get the Ursack Major? Would an Ursack AllMitey be overkill or a good idea to protect against bears and critters?

Other good brands/options?

Thank you for your input!

AllDownhillFromHere
11-14-2017, 23:22
I have heard that bears have learned that somewhere, even if they can't smell it, in the big nylon bags the two-legs carry, is a snickers bar, so regardless of smell, etc, they'll go after it an try and eat it. This was in the High Peaks of the ADK, which has a significant tame/nuisance bear problem.

TSWisla
11-14-2017, 23:54
I have been using this for the last few years with an Opsak inside it. https://www.rei.com/product/846495/armored-outdoor-gear-ratsack-cache-food-storage-bag

Leo L.
11-15-2017, 09:03
As Downhill has already stated, most animals have long since learned that there is something tastey inside plasicbags.
I have got plasic bags chewed through by ants, mice, squirrels, cats, dogs, cows, horses and camels.

HooKooDooKu
11-15-2017, 10:18
Given that tests have shown bears can detect smells thru multiple layers of ziplock bags, and I've had ants get into loafs of bread I thought were closed, I simply don't believe the claim that any sack is an odor proof sack to a bear and therefore would never personally rely on it.

biloute
11-15-2017, 11:38
Thanks for all the feedback. It sounds like I would need a specialized bag. Is it better to be critter resistent, like the Ursack Allmitey? Or is the regular Ursack sufficient and we could get a larger bag?


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Crossup
11-15-2017, 11:43
Some common sense thoughts and facts:
1)bears can not smell scents downwind of them
2) bears are going to be more attracted to strong scents then weak ones(so odor containing bags limit detection range)
3)bears will investigate anything unusual in their territory, which is exclusive(they dont share territory)
4)bears are several times more hungry in the fall and there is less food available
5)bears are not only very shy but wary of humans because we hunt them(as many as 4300(out of an 18000 population) were taken in PA alone in a season)
6)bear populations are crowded- 18k bears in PA "want" a 10sq.mile territory=180,000sq. miles yet PA is only 43,000sq miles
7)bears are rather intelligent and prefer steady food supplies, they might target a permanent dumpster but not typical isolated campsites, in this context, target means seek out in preference to alternatives. See #3

rustmd
11-15-2017, 12:07
i've used Ursac lined with odor-free bags since 2007, on the AT, WY, CO, & north slope of Alaska on the tundra where there are no trees to hang. i carry my own food, anyone i hike with such as husband carries own food (split so to balance share of weight). i've also carried bear canisters which are not required along the AT but certainly are an option. as posters above have noted, there are a lot of creatures in the woods, both big and small.

.com

Venchka
11-15-2017, 12:20
Given that tests have shown bears can detect smells thru multiple layers of ziplock bags, and I've had ants get into loafs of bread I thought were closed, I simply don't believe the claim that any sack is an odor proof sack to a bear and therefore would never personally rely on it.
Add the food smells on the hiker’s person, clothes, food bag, Ursack, etc. and the so called odor proof sacks would seem to be a waste of time and money. They also give the user a false sense of security.
Besides, moose are far more dangerous to humans than bears.
Wayne

biloute
11-15-2017, 13:11
What about protecting from smaller critters? I’ve heard shelters often have lots of mice.


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nsherry61
11-15-2017, 13:13
1) Personal anecdotes make for great stories, BUT they are pretty useless for responsible decision making. For instance, I've spent most of my life drinking untreated water in the back country, I grew up sleeping with my food to keep it away from predators, I have slept within sight of bears in the Olympic National Forest and within smell of bears in Denali National Park. I once heard a large animal sniffing outside my tent in the Three Sisters Wilderness in Oregon, but was too scared or tired to stick my head out and see what it was.

I've never been ill from a water born disease (that I know of) in 55 years of drinking untreated back-country water.

The only animal problems I've had concerning food was rodents in a few places and a raccoon once when I had food in my vestibule instead of under my head.

But please, don't be stupid and regularly drink untreated water when treating water is so easy and getting sick is such a significant downer. AND, please don't head into bear country and sleep with your food because, yeah, the chance of a problem is maybe 1 in 1000 - 1/10th of 1%, but, it is still real and you don't wont to be that one in 1000 person, and again, the cost of safer alternatives is very, very low compared to the cost of that 0.1% encounter.

2) Ziploc bags are absolutely NOT odor proof. And I don't think most animals choose what to chew through based on appearance. I have always kept my food in ziploc freezer bags (i.e. the thicker and more odor proof ones). I have never had a rodent chew through a bag or backpack that wasn't containing food exactly where the chewing occurred.

3) Finally, from a number of studies with dogs, who apparently don't have as good a sense of smell as bears, I have never seen an example of an odor proof bag that even significantly slowed down the dogs' ability to find the contraban of choice. The most that odor barrier bags can do is reduce the intensity of the odors that escape, so probably reducing (maybe significantly) the size of the area around your food storage that a bear would pick up the odor and care, and that is not a bad thing. . . but, as any well trained scrounge could attest too, it doesn't take a genius bear to know that where there are people, there is food, and once a bear has the temerity to investigate the possibility of food in the vicinity of people, they'll be close enough to smell odors even those originating from inside an odor barrier bag.

Crossup
11-15-2017, 14:05
Well said, I would only add that a bears ability to smell is 7x greater than the best dogs...
For a good overview with some hard info vs anecdotal wives tales:
https://sectionhiker.com/bears_sense_of_smell/


1) Personal anecdotes make for great stories, BUT they are pretty useless for responsible decision making. For instance, I've spent most of my life drinking untreated water in the back country, I grew up sleeping with my food to keep it away from predators, I have slept within sight of bears in the Olympic National Forest and within smell of bears in Denali National Park. I once heard a large animal sniffing outside my tent in the Three Sisters Wilderness in Oregon, but was too scared or tired to stick my head out and see what it was.

I've never been ill from a water born disease (that I know of) in 55 years of drinking untreated back-country water.

The only animal problems I've had concerning food was rodents in a few places and a raccoon once when I had food in my vestibule instead of under my head.

But please, don't be stupid and regularly drink untreated water when treating water is so easy and getting sick is such a significant downer. AND, please don't head into bear country and sleep with your food because, yeah, the chance of a problem is maybe 1 in 1000 - 1/10th of 1%, but, it is still real and you don't wont to be that one in 1000 person, and again, the cost of safer alternatives is very, very low compared to the cost of that 0.1% encounter.

2) Ziploc bags are absolutely NOT odor proof. And I don't think most animals choose what to chew through based on appearance. I have always kept my food in ziploc freezer bags (i.e. the thicker and more odor proof ones). I have never had a rodent chew through a bag or backpack that wasn't containing food exactly where the chewing occurred.

3) Finally, from a number of studies with dogs, who apparently don't have as good a sense of smell as bears, I have never seen an example of an odor proof bag that even significantly slowed down the dogs' ability to find the contraban of choice. The most that odor barrier bags can do is reduce the intensity of the odors that escape, so probably reducing (maybe significantly) the size of the area around your food storage that a bear would pick up the odor and care, and that is not a bad thing. . . but, as any well trained scrounge could attest too, it doesn't take a genius bear to know that where there are people, there is food, and once a bear has the temerity to investigate the possibility of food in the vicinity of people, they'll be close enough to smell odors even those originating from inside an odor barrier bag.

egilbe
11-15-2017, 17:57
I use an Ursack major for all my food. Never needed it to protect my food from bears, but mice and squirrels, definitely. Watched a squirrel try to get through the ursack tied to a tree, but it never could concentrate on one spot and kept tugging on different places. It knew the bag held food. Watched it for a good half hour. Very comical.

Sandy of PA
11-15-2017, 21:59
I just use a bear can, it helps me sleep better at night knowing my food is protected from everything, and makes a great stool, drum, ice bucket, etc.

biloute
11-15-2017, 22:28
I just use a bear can, it helps me sleep better at night knowing my food is protected from everything, and makes a great stool, drum, ice bucket, etc.
I take it the weight isn’t too bad for you then? How much can your canister hold?

Sarcasm the elf
11-15-2017, 22:59
I take it the weight isn’t too bad for you then? How much can your canister hold?


About this many beers :D40916

biloute
11-16-2017, 00:45
About this many beers :D40916

Is that the BV500?

rocketsocks
11-16-2017, 12:45
About this many beers :D40916you could fit a lot more in there if you get rid of the packaging the beer comes in, and tap the vault like a keg, I don’t think bears have figured how to operate a keg yet...but this I’m not certain of.

Sarcasm the elf
11-16-2017, 12:53
Is that the BV500?

Yes it is, though I can't take credit for the photo, that's from The trail Show Podcast.

I did buy a BV500 this year and so far have been happy with it

HooKooDooKu
11-16-2017, 13:20
I did buy a BV500 this year and so far have been happy with it
I loved the Bearikade I used while on the JMT. Yea, it's expensive as #3!!, but in addition to being lighter, I loved how easy it was to operate compared.

The Bearikade was packed up-right in the top of my pack just under the brain. The underside of the brain had a zipper pocket where I kept a coin. At lunch time, I didn't even have to remove the Bearikade from my pack, just simply lift up the brain and open the Bearikade in-place with the coin from the zipper pocket.

By contrast, the 1st morning out on the JMT, overnight temps had been a little chilly and a lady from the campsite next to mine came over because she needed help getting her BV500 open (you've got to be able to bend the lid a little to get past the tabs... and the plastic is stiffer when the temps are cold).

Sandy of PA
11-16-2017, 21:03
I have used the Bearicade Weekender(holds 8 days for me), I am now using a BV450 to help me stop carrying too much food. It weighs 2 ozs. more than the Weekender, holds 450 cubic inches instead of 650 cubic inches of the Bearicade. Both are about 2 pounds. Having a fixed volume for food makes my pack carry the same every day, it just gets lighter with less food. The round edges on the BV450 do not wear the inside waterproof surface of my Cuben pack, a problem I did have with the Bearicade.

biloute
11-17-2017, 22:07
Okay, I’m now leaning towards an Ursack (preferably an Allmitey) with an Opsak inside. I started planning out an itinerary to see when/where we might want to do resupplies and so far I have about 6-7 days between resupplies. I looked around on Ursack’s site and watched their video about how much food the regular Ursack will hold, and it was about 5-6 days of freeze dried food for 2 people.

We’ve been considering getting a dehydrator and dehydrating all our own meals and sealing them with a vacuum sealer and mostly resupplying with mail drops. This would both save space and we’d be able to have more vegetables, fruits, meats, etc. I know you might not all agree with that, but that’s what we’d prefer to do.

So my new question is how much food packaged like this would the Ursack hold? Freeze dried food (backpacker meals) like in the video/estimates by Ursack have air in the bags. Would we be able to extend the capacity enough that we would be able to fit all our food for two people for a week, or even more, in a standard size Ursack? We don’t have an REI or anything near us to be able to go look at it ourselves.

biloute
11-17-2017, 22:09
Having a fixed volume for food makes my pack carry the same every day, it just gets lighter with less food.
Is this a good thing or not? I’m leaning toward Ursack because it can compress as we eat the food and it might be easier to pack things that way.

BuckeyeBill
11-19-2017, 17:08
Thanks for all the feedback. It sounds like I would need a specialized bag. Is it better to be critter resistent, like the Ursack Allmitey? Or is the regular Ursack sufficient and we could get a larger bag?


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I use an Ursack Allmitey because I've seen more critters chewed bags than bear bags. I also put my food inside an Op Sack. I then have a large Op Sack lining the Allmitey. I have slept with, hung it in a tree, and tied it to a large log without any problems.

egilbe
11-19-2017, 18:01
I can’t get more than 5 or 6 days of calorie dense food just for myself. Not sure how you think you are going to get that for two people in one Ursack

TwoSpirits
11-19-2017, 18:21
Okay, I’m now leaning towards an Ursack (preferably an Allmitey) with an Opsak inside....

So my new question is how much food packaged like this would the Ursack hold? Freeze dried food (backpacker meals) like in the video/estimates by Ursack have air in the bags. Would we be able to extend the capacity enough that we would be able to fit all our food for two people for a week, or even more, in a standard size Ursack? We don’t have an REI or anything near us to be able to go look at it ourselves.

I just finished a hike with the equivalent of the Allmighty & OpSack combination. (I already had the All White, and added the critter bag to the inside before I ever heard about the Allmighty. I really prefer this set-up: the weight of the two combined is essentially identical to the Allmighty, and I have the option to use one, the other, or both.)

I was able to get 6+ days of food into it (about 9 lbs), but it was a pretty tight fit. I had all the usual suspects: some oatmeals, some Cliff bars, some tortillas, cheese, and pepperoni slices, crackers, several Snickers and M&M's, nuts, dried fruits, and a 3/3 mix of dehydrated meals and freeze dried (MH) meals. Most things were of course de-packaged and re-packaged for weight & trash considerations, and I rounded the sharp corners off the MH meals.

Actually, it was a VERY tight fit; I had to pack and repack it all several times in order to get it all in AND get a good seal on the OpSack (overloading it will put a lot of stress on either side of the "zipper", and that is where you will most likely see a tear or failure.)

I hiked from Harper's Ferry to Rockfish Gap, tenting at more than a couple of areas that were posted with warnings of "High Bear Activity" (although not closed to backcountry camping); I tied my Ursack to a tree a few times, and slept with it at other times. I was never bothered by (or ever aware of) any critters great or small.


P.S.: I was carrying way too much food.

Sarcasm the elf
11-19-2017, 18:23
I loved the Bearikade I used while on the JMT. Yea, it's expensive as #3!!, but in addition to being lighter, I loved how easy it was to operate compared.

The Bearikade was packed up-right in the top of my pack just under the brain. The underside of the brain had a zipper pocket where I kept a coin. At lunch time, I didn't even have to remove the Bearikade from my pack, just simply lift up the brain and open the Bearikade in-place with the coin from the zipper pocket.

By contrast, the 1st morning out on the JMT, overnight temps had been a little chilly and a lady from the campsite next to mine came over because she needed help getting her BV500 open (you've got to be able to bend the lid a little to get past the tabs... and the plastic is stiffer when the temps are cold).

The BV500 is exceptionally easy to open just as long as you have a knive blade or thin piece of plastic like a credit card to use as a guide:


https://youtu.be/_YUTs_w6_pA

Sandy of PA
11-19-2017, 18:28
I like having the pack load the same every day, harder to lose things that way. I do not carry freeze dried meals in the factory packaging. I found you lose too much space in the can and their meal sizes don't match my hunger. I take 2 matching meals for 2 persons and make 3 meals for me out of them. I also carry ingredients to build my own meals plus Spam singles, cheese, hard boiled eggs, nuts, butter, dark chocolate, and dried fruit. What you eat has a lot to do with how much space is needed for food.

Venchka
11-19-2017, 21:18
Okay, I’m now leaning towards an Ursack (preferably an Allmitey) with an Opsak inside. I started planning out an itinerary to see when/where we might want to do resupplies and so far I have about 6-7 days between resupplies. I looked around on Ursack’s site and watched their video about how much food the regular Ursack will hold, and it was about 5-6 days of freeze dried food for 2 people.

We’ve been considering getting a dehydrator and dehydrating all our own meals and sealing them with a vacuum sealer and mostly resupplying with mail drops. This would both save space and we’d be able to have more vegetables, fruits, meats, etc. I know you might not all agree with that, but that’s what we’d prefer to do.

So my new question is how much food packaged like this would the Ursack hold? Freeze dried food (backpacker meals) like in the video/estimates by Ursack have air in the bags. Would we be able to extend the capacity enough that we would be able to fit all our food for two people for a week, or even more, in a standard size Ursack? We don’t have an REI or anything near us to be able to go look at it ourselves.
The short answer to your question: Absolutely not.
I bought my Ursack Major after reading several people say that the Ursack wouldn’t hold more than 5 or 5 1/2 days of food for one person.
Looking at the Ursacks at REI won’t answer your questions. After you have assembled your homemade food, order one of each size Ursack. Find out at home just how much food each size will hold. Return the one that doesn’t work for you.
I think the Allmitey is the smallest of the 3 Ursacks.
Don’t waste your money on the Opsaks. A simple opaque trash bag liner like a Glad ForceFlex will keep water out and hide your food from a bear.
Wayne

biloute
11-20-2017, 21:37
Thank you!

Venchka
11-20-2017, 23:43
Thank you!
I may not have been as clear as I would like. My fingers and brain don’t always communicate properly.
I really think that in your case you need to use your homemade and vacuum packed food to test the capacity of the various Ursacks. REI allows returns up to a year after purchase.
You also didn’t say if your wife’s daily ration was equal in weight and volume to yours.
If the legendary Hiker Hunger affects you and your wife equally the 7+ days of food might be gone in 4 or 5 days.
I don’t have any trouble filling the Ursack Major with an assortment of backpacking meals, no cook trail food and off the shelf breakfast food for 7 days.
Good luck!
Wayne

biloute
11-21-2017, 00:48
I may not have been as clear as I would like. My fingers and brain don’t always communicate properly.
I really think that in your case you need to use your homemade and vacuum packed food to test the capacity of the various Ursacks. REI allows returns up to a year after purchase.
You also didn’t say if your wife’s daily ration was equal in weight and volume to yours.
If the legendary Hiker Hunger affects you and your wife equally the 7+ days of food might be gone in 4 or 5 days.
I don’t have any trouble filling the Ursack Major with an assortment of backpacking meals, no cook trail food and off the shelf breakfast food for 7 days.
Good luck!
Wayne

It’s me and my husband, actually. We don’t have the dehydrator and vacuum sealer yet. I just know that would take up less space than just freeze dried food (which they use to estimate capacity). We’re waiting to see what we might get for Christmas before we buy anything. I really like to plan though.

As for hiker hunger, I didn’t encounter that in the 2+ months I was on the Camino de Santiago. I actually wasn’t very hungry at all so I figure if I get hiker hunger that’ll probably be later on. I don’t know how our rations would compare. My husband gets full faster, but also has a tendency to get hungrier sooner than I do. That’s something we’ll have to work out.

Do you have any trouble with mice, raccoons, etc. with the Ursack Major? We may end up getting an Ursack for each of us anyway. The regular one is supposed to hold 5-6 days for 2 people, so I’m guessing capacity would be fine if we had two of them.

Venchka
11-21-2017, 17:41
I've only backpacked with the Ursack Major in Colorado and Wyoming. The only wildlife encounter I had was when a mature cow moose came though my campsite at 3:26am at a full gallop. I estimate that she missed my feet by about 10'-12'. Fortunately I had moved my sleeping bag into a circle of mature trees before I went to bed. Mice, raccoons, wolves and bears don't bother me as much as 1,200-1,500 pounds of moose stomping me into oblivion.
I found a couple pictures of food for a week or so. The first is my food. The left column is morning meals & too much coffee. The middle is trail food. The right is 6 evening meals.
41016
The second photo is from a gentleman who was heading into Yellowstone or Glacier. Judging by the number of candy bars, I would say this was a 7-10 day trip. He owns an Ursack.
41017
In parting, I would like to say that I can't imagine anyone living off of freeze dried food for 6 days. I think that the folks at Ursack are wrong to use freeze dried meals to demonstrate the capacity of their products. While it might be lighter and more compact, freeze dried food would be terribly inefficient during the day on the trail. And horribly expensive. Just my opinion.
Learn by doing. Y'all will figure out what works for you.
Wayne

Tipi Walter
11-21-2017, 17:45
Good pics, Venchka. Reminds me of assembling my vegan jerky for a recent trip--
-41018

Venchka
11-21-2017, 17:50
Somehow "Texas" and "vegan" don't go well together. Is that Tofu Jerky?
Grinning!
It's all good! Jerky on the trail is another reason why I would not pack 100% freeze dried food.
Wayne

Which Way
11-23-2017, 00:29
It’s me and my husband, actually. We don’t have the dehydrator and vacuum sealer yet. I just know that would take up less space than just freeze dried food (which they use to estimate capacity). We’re waiting to see what we might get for Christmas before we buy anything. I really like to plan though.

As for hiker hunger, I didn’t encounter that in the 2+ months I was on the Camino de Santiago. I actually wasn’t very hungry at all so I figure if I get hiker hunger that’ll probably be later on. I don’t know how our rations would compare. My husband gets full faster, but also has a tendency to get hungrier sooner than I do. That’s something we’ll have to work out.

Do you have any trouble with mice, raccoons, etc. with the Ursack Major? We may end up getting an Ursack for each of us anyway. The regular one is supposed to hold 5-6 days for 2 people, so I’m guessing capacity would be fine if we had two of them.

My wife and are planning a thru hike in April '18. We purchased an Excalibur dehydrator and love it, This is our 2nd one to purchase ( our 1st one is in storage in another state). We haven't tried out our food sealer enough for me praise or debunk it yet.