View Full Version : Is Everything Made in China
wordstew
12-11-2017, 12:25
I admit it I have bought some camping/hiking items that were obviously from China and for the most part turned out to be pretty good. However I find that when I believe I'm buying "American Made" I usually later discover that the manufacturer has sourced some if not all of the product parts or manufacturing to/from China.
what's your opinion should we be trying to only purchase "American Made" gear?
Do what you want, though it was pointed out to me that a lot of the little boutique hiking gear manufacturers like zpacks were started by people who are fellow thru-hikers, so you would be supporting our own community.
peakbagger
12-11-2017, 12:37
A lot of high end gear was made in Vietnam for quite awhile.
DownEaster
12-11-2017, 12:38
Participating in a broader (global) economy means more options for both consumers and makers than if the economy is limited to just one nation. Is there any reason to think that American makers do a consistently better job of executing American designs than Chinese makers do?
I think the design is most important, then quality of manufacture, then finally responsiveness to customers. Chinese makers have an inherent difficulty there, simply because of the greater distance to American customers. My Granite Gear pack was designed in America but made in China. My Deuce of Spades trowel was designed in America but made in Korea.
My opinion: go with what works to get gear which meets your needs. If you feel a need to buy American gear rather than satisfy specific functions, feel free.
Sarcasm the elf
12-11-2017, 12:42
I admit it I have bought some camping/hiking items that were obviously from China and for the most part turned out to be pretty good. However I find that when I believe I'm buying "American Made" I usually later discover that the manufacturer has sourced some if not all of the product parts or manufacturing to/from China.
what's your opinion should we be trying to only purchase "American Made" gear?
There is an old thread so somewhere on this site that is a semi-complete list of "cottage" gear manufacturers, nearly all of whom employ American manufacturing.
As for me, I prefer to buy American for gear and it is a large factor, but it's not the only requirement. If I find gear that genuinely fits my needs better but is made overseas the I am still willing to buy it.
The other big advantage of buying American is that a lot of the small conpanys that manufacturer locally are ones that make small scale specialty products that are specifically designed for lightweight long distance backpacking, they put function first and don't have to include the bells, whistles, and marketing gimmicks that are so often seen in gear sold at large chain store retailers.
Almost every piece of equipment for outdoors I ever bought came from the Far East, mostly China and Vietnam.
Even if it is a famous German brand (we hardly have any Austrian brands), it will be produced in China.
The only item I can buy locally are shoes/boots, and I prefer these. We have two very small, but exceptionally good shoe productions here who actually do the whole work in their own shops.
But then, the raw material... Who knows where the leather, the soles and all the other tiny pieces come from.
rocketsocks
12-11-2017, 13:26
Participating in a broader (global) economy means more options for both consumers and makers than if the economy is limited to just one nation. Is there any reason to think that American makers do a consistently better job of executing American designs than Chinese makers do?
I think the design is most important, then quality of manufacture, then finally responsiveness to customers. Chinese makers have an inherent difficulty there, simply because of the greater distance to American customers. My Granite Gear pack was designed in America but made in China. My Deuce of Spades trowel was designed in America but made in Korea.
My opinion: go with what works to get gear which meets your needs. If you feel a need to buy American gear rather than satisfy specific functions, feel free.If by executing a better product you mean, in addition to stiching, and pay their workers a fair living wage, then yes. I try to buy American where and when I can, but like you, if the product fits my needs, then that’s the one I buy.
Just Bill
12-11-2017, 14:52
Depends on the product you're talking about really.
Mainly though the more factual term might be foreign or domestic production... as even made in China doesn't mean made in China- they sub stuff out too.
After a few decades of making a few bucks they have a growing middle class and have found other countries and labor markets to exploit.
Stoves... they never got made here. After a few decades of teaching the Chinese all the mysteries, specs, and tolerances and training to produce stoves; at some point they realized they could just make them. That hot little stove folks buy for $10 is the stove Olicamp created. There is functionally no difference as you're buying one imported and sold by Olicamp, and one shipped 'factory direct' with little or no markup.
As far as I know... the lindal valve and canister for every camping stove on the market is made, filled, and shipped from the same factory in Korea. Some things just don't make sense to build fifty different factories for... and everyone enjoys the benefits of that efficiency and consistency.
Stoves are 'hard goods'. For the most part USA makes very few hard goods any longer. All your buckles, zippers, poles, pooper scoopers etc... probably foreign producers.
Soft goods, or sewn products...
I believe the USA is UP to a handful of domestic fabric mills. I'm fairly sure the chinese actually reopened at least one mill in the carolinas. There is a little of this coming back.
So 99% of the fabric you buy comes from overseas... as does most of the raw materials so even USA made is rarely ever possible to be 100% domestically produced, even if 99% of the labor is done here.
From there; unless you are shopping from a cottage vendor you know is actually employing american workers and manufacturing domestically- it's a safe bet it is foreign made.
You see other 'grey areas' that further muck things up too. Like a few quilt manufacturers who do sew the quilts here 100%, but might sub out the stuff sacks and storage bags.
Shells done in one place, while the final insulation (down) filling is done here. Hipbelts or should straps sub'd out while the final pack gets built in your shop of choice.
Somebody like Go Lite- 100% foreign produced goods. 100% cottage marketing though so that's a messy and slightly dishonest one ain't it.
I suppose somebody is domestically working the warehouse and employing a few folks in the shipping department but...that's just an import biz.
Patagonia tried very hard to bring some of their line to the USA. They couldn't.
At any cost and price (and they do pay anything they can to do what they feel is the right thing) they couldn't find a combo of volume and quality that made sense. Even with cost being no issue.
That's why you see them promoting the fair trade lines... if you can't beat em... then clean em up.
Besides any political points...
From a matter of fact and blunt cost benefit analysis for the American shopper:
Knock offs and cheap foreign labor is a fact of life. And when you are shopping the Olicamp vs. the Firefox (china) stove it gets pretty tough to justify 3-4 times the price to simply ensure that the profit (not even labor or materials) goes domestic.
The only realistic issue; if you don't support and pay 'the idea man'... eventually we run out of ideas.
Somebody has to pay for R&D and innovation.
Patagonia and Osprey... good examples of domestic companies who work hard to balance all the realities in their supply chain responsibly.
Companies like that deserve support in my opinion, even if they aren't truly domestic producers.
Global supply chains are a fact of life; but that doesn't mean you have to be ****ty about it... might even be able to make the world a better place along the way.
Somebody like a golite (I know that's not the current name) who are simply doing production runs of knock-offs to crank out stuff cheap... My money won't go there. But I get why others might buy it.
True cottage vendors... they deliver one of three things... or they aren't worth buying from.
1- Innovation that can only come from small run in house production methods. (Osprey still does this)
2-Customization and service- such as getting your quilt in the color combo you want and to the specs you want. IE- you can't buy it at any price anywhere else.
3- 'MERICA
'Merica can mean what ever you want. Wither that's a patriotic choice or political viewpoint that's your call.
It could just be a hard fact for you to buy american because that's what you believe in.
It can also be part of supporting 'craft' products across many industries. A handmade knife, a fine beer, or just an amazingly well built pack that you are willing to pay for because you support that biz model. Buying a Gransfors Bruks hatchet is a craft purchase... even if it's not a USA product.
Point being- there is some sort of mental component beyond simply buying a product that you are invested in that influences your purchase that accounts for a good reason to buy American made.
American made doesn't automatically mean better, sometimes the opposite. It does occasionally mean best, but that's in my opinion because the person or company behind that product is the best.
It doesn't automatically mean your neighbor gets a job.
It doesn't automatically mean that what you bought was best for the earth... and at the end of the day it's not a bad idea to truly understand who our 'neighbors' really are.
Still just one planet we live on last I checked.
Personally- I value the company as a whole more than just the nuts and bolts of what they sell.
I shop first and foremost on innovation, quality, and function. On who makes the best product and eventually in the best way.
Expensive or cheap- if the product doesn't do what you want who cares. Money has no value in the woods... your stuff works or it doesn't.
If it comes down to a choice like the North Face (VF corp parent company) or Patagonia... my money goes to Patagonia any day even if you could argue all other things are equal.
So much so that I make an effort to buy from them even for day to day apparel and other purchases when possible.
Do your own homework, chose what you value and what you're buying.
Every time you hit the register or click to complete your order you cast a vote more important than nearly any election.
Trade and commerce make the world go round... you always get what you pay for.
nsherry61
12-11-2017, 15:25
. . . Somebody like Go Lite- 100% foreign produced goods. 100% cottage marketing though so that's a messy and slightly dishonest one ain't it.
I suppose somebody is domestically working the warehouse and employing a few folks in the shipping department but...that's just an import biz. . .
Actually, contracting out warehousing is also common. Many companies do nothing but design and marketing and never lay a finger on their products or order processing as that is all contactable, and contracting it out can save a lot of money for some.
JustBill, thanks for a great little insight into some of the corporate personalities in our industry. Logging into Patagonia.com (http://www.patagonia.com/home/) this week was most insightful.
If given a choice, I'll by USA if I can, and if the price is at least close to competitive. Sadly often our own regulations cause the prices to more than can be justified.
I'm a bit of a history buff, and find the time around WW2 interesting. Back in those days, we had factories within our borders to produce almost everything. You name it, we made it. We were able to re-tool in a very short time to win a major war on two huge fronts in just about 4 years time. This speaks to something I read once, I can't remember it well enough to quote, or even who wrote it, but one of our founding fathers wrote about the dangers of not having manufacturing capability within our borders...relating to security of our nation. Think about it.... if we were to go to war with China, what could we not turn around to produce ourselves? A whole lot now days.....
anyway
my new favorite sock is darn tough. Wear them every day now (non hiking socks). Apparently made in USA.
DownEaster
12-11-2017, 21:24
If by executing a better product you mean, in addition to stiching, and pay their workers a fair living wage, then yes. I try to buy American where and when I can, but like you, if the product fits my needs, then that’s the one I buy.
You realize that the same money can pay one American worker or three (more?) Chinese workers a fair living wage. Cost of living has a huge impact here. Most of the world thinks we Americans are bonkers for paying $300+ a month for low-bandwidth cable TV and cell phone service. And they're right.
Darn Tough are made in VT and Farm To Feet are made in NC. I'm not sure about Darn Tough, but F2F even sources all their materials domestically. Similar products, pretty much identical guarantee. I own some of both, prefer Darn Tough for some applications and F2F for others. Wish I could afford to toss all my other socks and have nothing but these two. :)
Another reason to buy domestic/cottage beyond what I've seen mentioned (most of which was well covered in Just Bill's erudite essay) is a connection to the producer. All other things being equal, if I've met, spoken to, or corresponded with "the" person producing the product then I not only have a good product, I've also got a good story to go with it.
rocketsocks
12-11-2017, 22:09
You realize that the same money can pay one American worker or three (more?) Chinese workers a fair living wage. Cost of living has a huge impact here. Most of the world thinks we Americans are bonkers for paying $300+ a month for low-bandwidth cable TV and cell phone service. And they're right.
Sure do...how about India, how they doing over there?
We caused products to be outsourced. By constantly shopping for cheaper stuff, we forced companies to move to Asia where they pay 12 year olds a penny a week to make our clothes. If you looked at the exact same pack and one made entirely in America was $250 and the one made in Asia was $175, I can bet I know which one you would buy...
rocketsocks
12-11-2017, 22:20
I support my local outfitter more times than not.
Starchild
12-11-2017, 22:42
Most stuff comes from China, who has become a leading world standard in manufacturing quality, but also has the cheap sh-t too, the only question on these goods is do you want to buy direct or enrich some American's pockets as being a middleman and placing the order from China for you.
fiddlehead
12-11-2017, 23:00
The Chinese Yuan was allowed to float and is now worth a lot more.
So now, Chinese manufacturing is no longer a cheap option.
Bangladesh (one of the poorest countries in the world), Vietnam, India, Malaysia, Thailand are all ramping up their producing as their labor rates are much lower.
IMO with the adoption of more and more robots, the USA will probably be in the running sooner rather than later.
A lot depends on the strength of the dollar also.
With blockchains becoming more and more recognized, that (dollar) will most likely fall in the future.
Money talks.
I don't see how even a $10 an hour sewing person can compete with a $1 an hour wage in Asia. (and $10 is not easy to live on in the states)
DownEaster
12-12-2017, 01:06
By constantly shopping for cheaper stuff, we forced companies to move to Asia where they pay 12 year olds a penny a week to make our clothes. If you looked at the exact same pack and one made entirely in America was $250 and the one made in Asia was $175, I can bet I know which one you would buy...
You'd be right. You're exaggerating, of course, but Asian laborers we would consider underage are glad to have jobs when the alternative is starving to death. If my purchase can keep someone from dying, I'm all for it.
fiddlehead
12-12-2017, 05:10
I disagree on 12 year olds working here in Asia.
I see a few factories, and have not seen any underage kids working there.
My sister in law (Thai) works and lives in a factory town with probably 500,000 workers living in high-rise condos and working different factories (she works for GE) and I've never seen nor heard her talk about under age kids.
There's plenty of 20 year olds to do the work.
A penny a week is sure exaggerating.
She makes about $300 a week.
I believe Vietnam is very compatible to those wages also.
Bangladesh now? lower for sure.
Under age? Probably not. They have plenty of poor people without resorting to kids. (i imagine there are some exceptions)
rocketsocks
12-12-2017, 07:43
I disagree on 12 year olds working here in Asia.
I see a few factories, and have not seen any underage kids working there.
My sister in law (Thai) works and lives in a factory town with probably 500,000 workers living in high-rise condos and working different factories (she works for GE) and I've never seen nor heard her talk about under age kids.
There's plenty of 20 year olds to do the work.
A penny a week is sure exaggerating.
She makes about $300 a week.
I believe Vietnam is very compatible to those wages also.
Bangladesh now? lower for sure.
Under age? Probably not. They have plenty of poor people without resorting to kids. (i imagine there are some exceptions)
I had no idea they even made that much.
I have gear from zpacks, ula, and enlightened equipment that was manufactured in the U.S. but I bought each item because it was the best on the market for my particular needs. U.S. Manufacturing is not dead but it doesn't make sense to manufacture cheap commodity goods here and manufacturers that succeed have gone up the value chain. I don't consider a $30 Wal-Mart sleeping bag competition for my zpacks bag that cost 13x or my EE bag that cost 10x but the majority of campers and hikers will go for low cost and that's ok.
fiddlehead
12-12-2017, 09:07
I had no idea they even made that much.
I'm sorry.
My mistake.
$300 a month.
About $75 a week or $15 a day.
rocketsocks
12-12-2017, 10:34
I'm sorry.
My mistake.
$300 a month.
About $75 a week or $15 a day.thats still more than the figures I always thought it was.
swisscross
12-12-2017, 15:52
Most, not all, of my soft goods (clothing) are made in Asia.
Packs, tent, tarp, pads, stoves, beanies, trowl, sleeping bag, socks (wool and down) are made in the US.
I also have some gear made in England, Spain, Czech, and Japan.
So no, not everything is made in China.
Old Grouse
12-12-2017, 16:06
These discussions always remind me of the time a few decades ago when I showed up at my father's place in New Hampshire in a VW Rabbit. He excoriated me for not buying "American" as he leaned on his Chevy Pickup. I politely pointed out that my car had been made in Westmoreland PA, whereas his truck had been made by GM in Canada. A quick change of subject ensued.
I admit it I have bought some camping/hiking items that were obviously from China and for the most part turned out to be pretty good. However I find that when I believe I'm buying "American Made" I usually later discover that the manufacturer has sourced some if not all of the product parts or manufacturing to/from China.
what's your opinion should we be trying to only purchase "American Made" gear?
As a cottage gear maker, I try to source what I can from USA sources, but it's tough to get to 100%. In the interest of full disclosure, I do buy titanium foil from China, but then make the windscreens I sell myself, in Ohio. Titanium sheets for trowels, spatulas and stoves I've been able to get from USA sources. All the titanium cuting is done locally in an Ohio shop. I do resell Toaks pots as part of my complete kits; these pots are made overseas. The blades for the Little Buck saws come from Europe, as I cannot find a USA manufacturer that has the quality blade I want. The aluminum tubes for the saws are made in the USA. So even with best intentions, there are some components of my gear that are not from USA. These are some examples of challenges and successes that may interest the community.
Gambit McCrae
12-13-2017, 12:59
Most of my gear is made in the USA.
I can not say that I chose the companies I use BC of the fact that they are made in the US, it just happens to be that the higher quality, cottage companies are in the USA. I do have pride for the USA flag on some of my gear, and I appreciate that they were made here but I would not use a lesser quality item JUST because it was made here.
I drive a Toyota why? Because of the quality. (Yes I know they are made in the USA, but it aint a ford!)
Odd Man Out
12-13-2017, 13:27
You could extend this discussion from gear/equipment to supplies. How many hikers resupply at dollar stores? We all know why they can sell things for a dollar, right? I have no problem with people choosing to buy American made products for whatever reason. What annoys me are the people who complain about the lack of American made products and then shop at the dollar store while extolling the value of free-market capitalism. It's like they don't understand what the word "Free" means.
FWIW, I bought my tent, quilt, pack, and socks from companies that manufacture in the USA, not for patriotic reasons, but mainly because they are from cottage companies that make superior products not available elsewhere. My snapps is from Sweden, but when that runs out, there is a local distillery that makes an Akavit I will have to try. Otherwise a replacement bottle would be only 20$ at the duty-free shop, but the RT plane ticket to ARN is $1000!
Everything but babies are made in China now; they're made in VaChina.
The sales market is a global place now. It's cheaper to ship a product halfway around the world than to pay higher manufacturing wages locally. And because we consumers want inexpensive goods and high paying jobs, we're in a bit of an ongoing conundrum which we helped create. Machines/robots will drop prices further, but at what cost? As it always does, time will tell.
Both Wal-Mart and Amazon would not have grown to their current proportions had 'Made in USA' mattered all that much. It's no longer a sign of quality with most products, anyhow.
TJ aka Teej
12-13-2017, 15:30
Darn Tough socks, made in Vermont with a lifetime guarantee, have a new AT logo quarter sock. Buy through the ATC (http://atctrailstore.org/apparel/accessories/socks/atc-darn-tough-1-4-socks/), and you're sending some dough to the trail!
peakbagger
12-13-2017, 15:35
Darn Tough socks, made in Vermont with a lifetime guarantee, have a new AT logo quarter sock. Buy through the ATC (http://atctrailstore.org/apparel/accessories/socks/atc-darn-tough-1-4-socks/), and you're sending some dough to the trail!
The owner is quite proud that he has kept production at the factory in VT. They supply the US military which requires US production. Lifetime guarantee to boot.
As a cottage gear maker, I try to source what I can from USA sources, but it's tough to get to 100%. In the interest of full disclosure, I do buy titanium foil from China, but then make the windscreens I sell myself, in Ohio. Titanium sheets for trowels, spatulas and stoves I've been able to get from USA sources. All the titanium cuting is done locally in an Ohio shop. I do resell Toaks pots as part of my complete kits; these pots are made overseas. The blades for the Little Buck saws come from Europe, as I cannot find a USA manufacturer that has the quality blade I want. The aluminum tubes for the saws are made in the USA. So even with best intentions, there are some components of my gear that are not from USA. These are some examples of challenges and successes that may interest the community.
Your post is a great extension of what I was trying to get at earlier. Back in the WW2 timeframe and after, I'm guessing it would be hard to find anything that couldn't be sourced in the usa. Knife blades, sure, likely many good quality choices. metal sheets or foil...sure (although maybe not titanium so much back in those days)
gwschenk
12-14-2017, 11:04
I buy American made as much as possible for selfish reasons. I'm a land surveyor and when people buy houses it's good for business. The odds of some Chinese factory worker buying a house in my area is pretty slim.
The majority of my antique and newish big items, sleeping bag and tent, were made either in the USA or Europe. My newest clothing and MSR tent were made in Asia, Jordan, Bangladesh, Taiwan, etc.
Wayne
You could extend this discussion from gear/equipment to supplies. How many hikers resupply at dollar stores? We all know why they can sell things for a dollar, right? I have no problem with people choosing to buy American made products for whatever reason. What annoys me are the people who complain about the lack of American made products and then shop at the dollar store while extolling the value of free-market capitalism. It's like they don't understand what the word "Free" mea
I shopped at dollar stores all the time when I did my through hike. The only things I recall buying were food items and maybe alkaline batteries, ibuprofin, disposable wipes, etc. It was all made in the USA. I don't buy your premise. Of course, some dollar stores charge a lot more than a dollar for many items.
Rummaging through my cold weather clothes I discovered that the Patagonia balaclava dating from the mid-90s was made in the USA. Who would have guessed it?
DOLLAR STORES:
In Elk Park, NC approximately 1 mile from the NC-TN border.
Approximately 0.3 miles past the Dollar Store there is a local market and gas station.
Wayne
The Cleaner
12-16-2017, 23:41
Love my made in the USA Tarptent.41213
rocketsocks
12-17-2017, 04:00
Are made in the USA labels actually made in the USA?
Fancee Feest stove, 100% parts and labor, made in USA "Shug" made in USA also....what's not to like about him :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKAFAsPfC4s
soumodeler
12-17-2017, 10:10
While I do not specifically go looking for Made in USA products, it may make a decision between 2 equal products easier. However, a lot of my gear is American made simply because I have a lot of cottage gear from TarpTent, ZPacks, etc.
The parts and material aspect is less important to me. As long as the final manufacturing is done in the US, it is providing a job here instead of overseas.
Rummaging through my cold weather clothes I discovered that the Patagonia balaclava dating from the mid-90s was made in the USA. Who would have guessed
I still have a heavy duty Eddie Bauer down parka from the mid-90s that was made in the USA. It was extraordinarily well made and I still use it.
show me the monkey
12-18-2017, 16:19
Everything but babies are made in China now; they're made in VaChina.
I've known two people who went to China to adopt their baby girls, so maybe...