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soumodeler
01-01-2018, 21:01
Got back from my first sub 20 degree backpacking trip today, which ended up also being my first ever below zero trip of any kind. I woke up this morning on top of Springer and the thermometer read -2 inside the tent. I'm guessing it was a few degrees colder outside.

However, when I woke up, the top 1/4 of my sleeping bags around my face and the mesh over my face were covered in ice. The area immediately around the hood was damp and the rest of the ice melted in my pack so when I got home and laid it out, it was noticeably damp. I layered my WM Versalite with a ZPacks 40 degree down quilt, and the quilt had lost a lot of loft at the top.

Is this avoidable? Or is this something you just have to plan for and deal with on a cold trip? Any suggestions?

fastfoxengineering
01-01-2018, 21:13
Look into a frost bib.

Google "frost bib, keeping condensation off of top quilt" by shugemery for a good YouTube video on the subject

Works great

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

DownEaster
01-01-2018, 21:18
Improved ventilation will disperse your moist exhalations better so there will be a light frosting over a more dispersed area rather than mostly your sleeping bag hood. Make sure your hood wraps your head so your face remains uncovered when you turn, else you'll be dumping moisture directly into the hood if you face into it. Finally, when you get up, wipe down the outside of your tent and spread the sleeping bag on top of it so the damp parts get morning sun as you prepare breakfast.

So no, it's not completely avoidable, but you can improve your situation.

skater
01-01-2018, 21:20
-2 Farenheit at Springer?? Woo, that's chilly.

shelterbuilder
01-01-2018, 21:43
Yep, try for more ventilation. My first 2-wall tent had a zipper window in the back, and a small vestibule in front. I routinely unzipped the top 3-4 inches of the window, and did the same for the bottom 3-4 inches of the vestibule. This helped tremendously. (Now, in the aftermath of my laryngectomy - to cure vocal cord cancer - I use a home-made "snorkel" that attaches over my stoma and allows me to exhale my warm, moist breath next to my mouth, so that I'm not saturating my sleeping bag by "breathing into it" during the night.)

LIhikers
01-02-2018, 06:41
The alternative to the already mentioned suggestions is to hold your breath all night :-?

SoaknWet
01-02-2018, 06:43
Check out Breath Pennsylvania.com they have a foam mask for cops that works great and best of all it your a resident they're free. I have to use them just to go outside.

Tipi Walter
01-02-2018, 10:47
Got back from my first sub 20 degree backpacking trip today, which ended up also being my first ever below zero trip of any kind. I woke up this morning on top of Springer and the thermometer read -2 inside the tent. I'm guessing it was a few degrees colder outside.

However, when I woke up, the top 1/4 of my sleeping bags around my face and the mesh over my face were covered in ice. The area immediately around the hood was damp and the rest of the ice melted in my pack so when I got home and laid it out, it was noticeably damp. I layered my WM Versalite with a ZPacks 40 degree down quilt, and the quilt had lost a lot of loft at the top.

Is this avoidable? Or is this something you just have to plan for and deal with on a cold trip? Any suggestions?

On my winter trips I expect interior tent frost both on my sleeping bag and inner tent walls. It's just part of winter backpacking. Where it gets interesting is when a winter trip stretches out beyond a single night or weekend and continues for 2 or 3 weeks---then such bag shell moisture must be dealt with.

Much like the discipline of shedding clothing layers as you hike to avoid sweat moisture, so too the discipline to hang out the down bag every morning before packing up---and air dry the shell. It's called Sublimation or something. See---and read-this article---see photos 3 and 4---

http://wintertrekking.com/equipment/sleeping-systems/

So, I always try to hang out my sleeping bag every morning no matter how cold it is---it can even be snowing if it's a dry powder snow---

41437
This is a -10F morning on a 5,000 foot NC mountain top.

41438
Another very cold morning.

41439
Gotta air out the geese.

41440
Welcome to winter camping.

garlic08
01-02-2018, 11:06
My friend took his son on a winter trip and closed the tent up tight. Combined respiration and perspiration coated the tent zipper with ice and it could not be opened. They estimated another hour until the sun's heat would warm things up. The son needed desperately to urinate and was ready to cut the tent. My friend said sure, give me $400 right now and you can cut my tent. It sounded like it was a long wait.

Balancing warmth with ventilation is a difficult act sometimes, part of gaining experience. So is drying out the insulation during the day, taking advantage of every opportunity for evaporation or even sublimation.

I've seldom gone more than four days without a) warm sunshine or b) access to a mechanical dryer somewhere, so that's my goal every night--keep all my insulation dry enough for at least that long. In some conditions that can be a challenge.

You can find some interesting stories on this topic from polar explorations. It's amazing how much a sleeping bag can weigh at the end of weeks in the arctic.

saltysack
01-02-2018, 11:31
My friend took his son on a winter trip and closed the tent up tight. Combined respiration and perspiration coated the tent zipper with ice and it could not be opened. They estimated another hour until the sun's heat would warm things up. The son needed desperately to urinate and was ready to cut the tent. My friend said sure, give me $400 right now and you can cut my tent. It sounded like it was a long wait.

Balancing warmth with ventilation is a difficult act sometimes, part of gaining experience. So is drying out the insulation during the day, taking advantage of every opportunity for evaporation or even sublimation.

I've seldom gone more than four days without a) warm sunshine or b) access to a mechanical dryer somewhere, so that's my goal every night--keep all my insulation dry enough for at least that long. In some conditions that can be a challenge.

You can find some interesting stories on this topic from polar explorations. It's amazing how much a sleeping bag can weigh at the end of weeks in the arctic.

Sounds like a great advantage of a floorless shelter![emoji23]or a WIDEMOUTH Gatorade bottle!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dogwood
01-02-2018, 18:51
I was waiting for other posts to add to this discussion before offering my dribble. I have some experience similar to yours Soumodeler.


These are some other options to be considered that were not shared. I thought they were viable options as we're not all doing the same trips or have the same "outdoors" backpacking/camping style. We all don't have to stubbornly haul 70-90+ lb packs going so over the top on gear or refusing to consider logistical eases to enjoy winter hikes/camping trips either. HYOH.


Sure sounds like breathing condensation was the main culprit so excellent advise was offered by Downeaster although could loss of loft been more than that? Was compromised loft just noticed in the ZP quilt or did you observe it also in the WM Versalite? Perhaps, loss of loft didn't only occur because the down got compromised from above as you breathed onto the quilt or into it only from your breath? Did you breathe into the Versalite too? Perhaps, vapor from your body or internally(from within the system) or because of other factors compromised loft too?


On what day out did you start noticing this? Was it day 1 or days into the trip?


What tent did you use? How were you ventilating it? Was there any wind? What was overhead(what kind of tree canopy, etc). Did you camp in/on any of Springer's grassy areas?


BTW, I've had the exact same scenario occur in O*- minus 15* f temps with rime on the top 1/4 head area of the top quilt layering a EE 850 fp non hydrophobic down quilt over a WM 10* Versalite or Marmot 15* Helium(2005 version) namely in dry Utah, northern AZ in the Skylands on a GET completion, on a Sierras winter trip and on a few eastern winter trips while cowboy camping or A frame config. tarp sheltering. Avoiding frost/rime is not just about better ventilation. Still have some occasional rime but much less than in the past. Fortunately, most of my trips aren't that long duration or they are broken up with a day in town or with access to a dryer or acceptable weather to somewhat dry gear every 7 days or so.

When I was experimenting with layering bags and quilts in winter weather, before I decided on exploring and going with other approaches, I found I need not be concerned as much when I layered a borrowed EE Prodigy 40* APEX over the Versalite or Helium per EE's suggested option for 0* and under winter weather. The Prodigy also was employed on 3 season wet and mixed weather treks.


Did you bring anything wet into the tent? Were you or your worn apparel damp, even lightly so, when you got into your stacked sleep system? Very common on winter trips to dive right into the sleep system being damp(sweaty yet cold) or wearing damp gear. Yeah, mountaineers and climbers bring wet stuff into tents and possibly even sleeping bags but how long do their activities typically last or how far are they traveling each day? Might be better to separately bag damp(not totally drenched) stuff allowing to dry inside the bag from body heat.


How long were you in this stacked sleep system each night? The longer you're in it, very very common in winter backpacking, the more the loft can be compromised. Diving into a sleeping bag in winter the minute the sun goes down at 4:30 p.m. can make for a long time in the bag. It's one of the reasons why I try to hike after sunset in winter. It brings a different dimension to experience. I like that.


On what day out did you start noticing this? Was it day 1 or days into the trips?


Did you cook in your tent?


Is your Zpacks quilt using .70 ventum with the DWR? How old is the quilt or how many nights using the quilt; what's the state of the DWR? IMO, that Zpacks shell fabric is not best for conserving loft under your scenario. I've seen the loft compromised too many times with ZP bags/quilts under too many scenarios not to
mention it. You can actually see the down through the fabric it's so wispy;pros and cons to that under different scenarios.


Were you crushing any of your sleep system layers? ie; through wearing to much sleepwear inside it, the WM Versalite, or not accounting for the extra size dimensions needed in the ZP quilt to layer? This can impede "moisture" going up and out through the layers.


Possibly, a synthetic quilt of appropriate size to top layer or to employ as a one bag synthetic for long trips without access to drying is an option to be considered?


At some pt, like when you're out for a very long trip with no access to dryers or don't want to wait around expecting acceptable drying weather to dry(?) a heavy down winter sleeping bag to really dry through(in frigid winter w/ no wind ???, tricky), or bring an overkill of apparel, or an overkill temp rated down bag, which is not everyone's backpacking style but may be acceptable for one more inclined to be a camper/hang around type than a hiker, maybe a synthetic bag is best?


Or, how about incorporating the latest hydrophobic down insulation versions in a winter sleeping bag(you don't have it in the ZP quilt I suppose?) potentially bringing you across the finish line on your wet or cold winter trips? Don't look at hydrophobic down as a loft conserving panacea but as an option to extend loft life that might be appropriate for the length of your trips, your scenarios, access to drying, hiking/backpacking/camping style, etc?


How about placing a scarf or other piece of gear over your nose and mouth or shell around the head area outside on the bag/quilt to capture the condensation in it? I did this to help mitigate the rime on the mentioned layered sleep systems in winter.


Have you explored bags/quilts that have a different fabric or treatment in areas prone to wetness or condensation like in the hood/shoulders and foot areas?


Letting down get wet, or even having loft compromised, and then jamming inside a pack with potentially other wet stuff is not good especially if you're doing it early on during extended winter trips, in remote locations, the down bag(s) are your main insulation...Dry or at least pat down the top quilt to make it dryer before packing.

Considered these options a few yrs ago.
https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/101595/
https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/55089/

soumodeler
01-02-2018, 19:50
I was waiting for other posts to add to this discussion before offering my dribble. I have some experience similar to yours Soumodeler.


These are some other options to be considered that were not shared. I thought they were viable options as we're not all doing the same trips or have the same "outdoors" backpacking/camping style. We all don't have to stubbornly haul 70-90+ lb packs going so over the top on gear or refusing to consider logistical eases to enjoy winter hikes/camping trips either. HYOH.


Sure sounds like breathing condensation was the main culprit so excellent advise was offered by Downeaster although could loss of loft been more than that? Was compromised loft just noticed in the ZP quilt or did you observe it also in the WM Versalite? Perhaps, loss of loft didn't only occur because the down got compromised from above as you breathed onto the quilt or into it only from your breath? Did you breathe into the Versalite too? Perhaps, vapor from your body or internally(from within the system) or because of other factors compromised loft too?

--- Loss of loft only in the ZPacks quilt and only at the very top, near where my head was. The Versalite had no problems as it appeared all the water stayed on the shell and froze there, except for the inside where it was slightly damp. I did breathe into the Versalite many times as I was lower down in the bag reading for a few hours before going to sleep. I only noticed the ice later on.
On what day out did you start noticing this? Was it day 1 or days into the trip?
--- This was a single night trip.

What tent did you use? How were you ventilating it? Was there any wind? What was overhead(what kind of tree canopy, etc). Did you camp in/on any of Springer's grassy areas?

--- TarpTent Notch, with mesh inner wall. Plenty of ventilation, with a decent breeze blowing throughout the night. I was near the shelter, so no grass and light tree cover.
BTW, I've had the exact same scenario occur in O*- minus 15* f temps with rime on the top 1/4 head area of the top quilt layering a EE 850 fp non hydrophobic down quilt over a WM 10* Versalite or Marmot 15* Helium(2005 version) namely in dry Utah, northern AZ in the Skylands on a GET completion, on a Sierras winter trip and on a few eastern winter trips while cowboy camping or A frame config. tarp sheltering. Avoiding frost/rime is not just about better ventilation. Still have some occasional rime but much less than in the past. Fortunately, most of my trips aren't that long duration or they are broken up with a day in town or with access to a dryer or acceptable weather to somewhat dry gear every 7 days or so.

When I was experimenting with layering bags and quilts in winter weather, before I decided on exploring and going with other approaches, I found I need not be concerned as much when I layered a borrowed EE Prodigy 40* APEX over the Versalite or Helium per EE's suggested option for 0* and under winter weather. The Prodigy also was employed on 3 season wet and mixed weather treks.


Did you bring anything wet into the tent? Were you or your worn apparel damp, even lightly so, when you got into your stacked sleep system? Very common on winter trips to dive right into the sleep system being damp(sweaty yet cold) or wearing damp gear. Yeah, mountaineers and climbers bring wet stuff into tents and possibly even sleeping bags but how long do their activities typically last or how far are they traveling each day? Might be better to separately bag damp(not totally drenched) stuff allowing to dry inside the bag from body heat.

--- The only wet gear I had was my slightly damp hiking layers, which were stored under the sleeping pad at my feet. Bone dry clothes on going into the bag.
How long were you in this stacked sleep system each night? The longer you're in it, very very common in winter backpacking, the more the loft can be compromised. Diving into a sleeping bag in winter the minute the sun goes down at 4:30 p.m. can make for a long time in the bag. It's one of the reasons why I try to hike after sunset in winter. It brings a different dimension to experience. I like that.

--- In tent at 4:30, noticed ice around 11.
On what day out did you start noticing this? Was it day 1 or days into the trips?

--- Day 1, only night spent out.
Did you cook in your tent?

--- No
Is your Zpacks quilt using .70 ventum with the DWR? How old is the quilt or how many nights using the quilt; what's the state of the DWR? IMO, that Zpacks shell fabric is not best for conserving loft under your scenario. I've seen the loft compromised too many times with ZP bags/quilts under too many scenarios not to
mention it. You can actually see the down through the fabric it's so wispy;pros and cons to that under different scenarios.

--- I don't think this one has DWR. It is an older model, well before the new vertical baffles.
Were you crushing any of your sleep system layers? ie; through wearing to much sleepwear inside it, the WM Versalite, or not accounting for the extra size dimensions needed in the ZP quilt to layer? This can impede "moisture" going up and out through the layers.

--- Not that I was aware of. No puffy inside bag, only thin layers. ZPacks was draped over Versalite, so no compression there.
Possibly, a synthetic quilt of appropriate size to top layer or to employ as a one bag synthetic for long trips without access to drying is an option to be considered?


At some pt, like when you're out for a very long trip with no access to dryers or don't want to wait around expecting acceptable drying weather to dry(?) a heavy down winter sleeping bag to really dry through(in frigid winter w/ no wind ???, tricky), or bring an overkill of apparel, or an overkill temp rated down bag, which is not everyone's backpacking style but may be acceptable for one more inclined to be a camper/hang around type than a hiker, maybe a synthetic bag is best?


Or, how about incorporating the latest hydrophobic down insulation versions in a winter sleeping bag(you don't have it in the ZP quilt I suppose?) potentially bringing you across the finish line on your wet or cold winter trips? Don't look at hydrophobic down as a loft conserving panacea but as an option to extend loft life that might be appropriate for the length of your trips, your scenarios, access to drying, hiking/backpacking/camping style, etc?


How about placing a scarf or other piece of gear over your nose and mouth or shell around the head area outside on the bag/quilt to capture the condensation in it? I did this to help mitigate the rime on the mentioned layered sleep systems in winter.


Have you explored bags/quilts that have a different fabric or treatment in areas prone to wetness or condensation like in the hood/shoulders and foot areas?


Letting down get wet, or even having loft compromised, and then jamming inside a pack with potentially other wet stuff is not good especially if you're doing it early on during extended winter trips, in remote locations, the down bag(s) are your main insulation...Dry or at least pat down the top quilt to make it dryer before packing.

Considered these options a few yrs ago.
https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/101595/
https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/55089/

Answers inline above.

wordstew
01-05-2018, 11:09
You might want to try a technical blanket over your down quilt.... I use a Thermarest Proton, you can find them on sale around 60 bucks.

Use the quilt up to your chin and allow the tech blanket/top quilt to be pulled over you head in extreme cold conditions.

Leo L.
01-05-2018, 12:25
To my limited experience, there are two ways how a human body will lose water, (1) by breathing, and (2) by perspiration, both spending roughly the same amount.
You can hinder the perspiration soaking the bag by using a bivvy inside the bag.
About the breathing, you can only try to breath through the nose through a dedicated opening in the hood, and hope your breath doesn't affect too much of the area around the opening.
I doubt if you could find any sleep while using any kind of tube trying to guide the breath away from the bag - I couldn't.
Having a bag that's "waterproofed" (siliconisized) helps a lot. It still will get damp, but will dry out quickly, as soon as you give it a chance to.
Like Tipi Walter stated several times: Spread and hang the bag whenever possible.

Whenever I tried to spread anything like a bivvy or a groundsheet or a space blanket atop of the sleeping bag, the bag got very damp underneath this cover, so I find this to be no god idea for normal sleeping (it could help you to survive in a edgy situation though).

Vanhalo
01-05-2018, 12:26
To my limited experience, there are two ways how a human body will lose water, (1) by breathing, and (2) by perspiration, both spending roughly the same amount.
You can hinder the perspiration soaking the bag by using a bivvy inside the bag.


Or a fleece quilt liner?

HerdBull
01-05-2018, 13:33
unfortunately like others have stated it's unavoidable. Even if you were outside and not in a tent you will end up with some ice/frost on the bag around the head opening. In very extreme case you'll need to wear a face mask or risk frost bite on your face.

Leo L.
01-05-2018, 13:47
Fleece liner would be far from waterproof, so it would not help in this case.

Cowboy camping in severe cold would end up with a full ice cover over the bag. Did this only in the backyard a few times when the bag could thaw&dry inside the house later.

QiWiz
01-05-2018, 15:47
In addition to other suggestions, for me the biggest one is to keep my mouth and nose out of my sleeping bag or quilt. That way my exhaled moisture will generally deposit on the shelter walls more than on/in my sleep system. A good hood and/or balaclava (or multiples of these) are very useful for allowing head warmth while having your head out; once it gets into low teens and single digits or less, a face shield or nose warmer layer is also key to sleeping comfort. Minus 2 is a low temp for Springer, but it is January. FYI Jacks or Better makes a very warm down hood that is a stand alone item.

Vanhalo
01-05-2018, 16:00
In addition to other suggestions, for me the biggest one is to keep my mouth and nose out of my sleeping bag or quilt. That way my exhaled moisture will generally deposit on the shelter walls more than on/in my sleep system. ......Jacks or Better makes a very warm down hood that is a stand alone item.


What I have realized through conversations today...when I use a quilt liner I am not breathing into my quilt.

When I forgo the quilt liner I am breathing exclusively in the quilt.

Probably why I see such a difference between the 2 in temperature toleration.

I just tried the JRB hood last night. Looking for a pair of the sleeves to buy as well. JRB is out of the Long versions at the moment.

staugy
01-08-2018, 12:04
good advice for sure

staugy
01-08-2018, 12:05
great advice

staugy
01-08-2018, 12:07
thats a funny story