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Khike
01-20-2018, 19:47
Hello All, My old Mountain Hardwear raingear, 29 oz total, made of Conduit Silk, has pooped the bed. I've noticed that the new gear, about the same price, is considerably lighter. I've been looking at Patagonia Torrentshell, Montbell Rain Trekker, of course, the OR Helium 2 and the Precip. I use my rain gear for keeping warm in camp, mostly. I use it sailing, in the rain. I'm a poncho man ,on the trail. I'm thinking either the Patagonia, 22 oz total or the Montbell, 21 oz total. I like the features and the wgt is better than my old gear. But I can hear those 6 oz jackets and 3 oz pants calling out to me! My base wgt, pack and everything, except food and water is 13 lbs. Add 7 lbs of food and 5 of water and we are talking 25lbs. I'm sure I can find a couple of more lbs to put in my ULA Circuit. Just don't seem like those light jackets would last. What say you? I know this has been beat to death, I've read all the posts. I'm thinking of a little more durability. Seems the fabrics have come a long way in ten years. I'm listening.... Kevin

Slo-go'en
01-20-2018, 20:54
If could afford it, I'd go with a cuben fiber rain suit from Zpacks.

Khike
01-20-2018, 21:31
Ouch! They are proud of that bad boy, ain't they? Kevin

fastfoxengineering
01-20-2018, 21:46
Frogg Toggs or Zpacks or HMG.

Everything in between has more negatives than positives

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Pastor Bryon
01-20-2018, 21:57
I just got a Rab Downpour Jacket in the mail. Haven't put it on the trail yet, but the build looks solid. I got it because I didn't want to give up having pockets and it also has pit zips and it can be adjusted around the cuffs and head. Comes in around 11oz. Reviews of the material (Pertex 2.5+) give it good waterproof characteristics, but it can wear down over time. But, I don't live in a rainy area and like you, it will be used for heat retention as much as for rain wear. Again, hasn't seen the trail yet, but Rab is a solid company, and there are several others that use the Pertex 2.5+ material.

Honestly, I think you go big with HMG or Zpacks, roll the dice on a cheap frogg toggs, or if you go in between pick the one with the colors you like, a coupon, and a good warranty.

Feral Bill
01-20-2018, 21:59
For sailing don't worry about weight. Sturdy coated gear is fine. Better really, and pretty cheap. For in camp, a wind shirt and light rain pants are fine for cold. Add the poncho (or Packa) for rain.

Deacon
01-20-2018, 22:21
Hello All, My old Mountain Hardwear raingear, 29 oz total, made of Conduit Silk, has pooped the bed. I've noticed that the new gear, about the same price, is considerably lighter. I've been looking at Patagonia Torrentshell, Montbell Rain Trekker, of course, the OR Helium 2 and the Precip. I use my rain gear for keeping warm in camp, mostly. I use it sailing, in the rain. I'm a poncho man ,on the trail. I'm thinking either the Patagonia, 22 oz total or the Montbell, 21 oz total. I like the features and the wgt is better than my old gear. But I can hear those 6 oz jackets and 3 oz pants calling out to me! My base wgt, pack and everything, except food and water is 13 lbs. Add 7 lbs of food and 5 of water and we are talking 25lbs. I'm sure I can find a couple of more lbs to put in my ULA Circuit. Just don't seem like those light jackets would last. What say you? I know this has been beat to death, I've read all the posts. I'm thinking of a little more durability. Seems the fabrics have come a long way in ten years. I'm listening.... Kevin

My 2012 ZPacks cuben rain jacket is still going strong. Iíve worn it every year since.


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wordstew
03-15-2018, 16:19
Check out the Montbell rain jackets

MtDoraDave
03-17-2018, 07:46
I mostly use my Frogg Toggs for warmth in camp as wind stoppers or the outer layer. Durable? Not the pants. The crotch will likely rip open the first time you squat down to get into your tent.
They were like half the weight of my Precips and a fraction of the price...

BuckeyeBill
03-25-2018, 19:17
I'm surprised no one hasn't mentioned the Packa. Covers both your pack and your upper body to well below the waist. Your pack straps stay dry under it as well. Has draw string sleeves and hood and packs up into its own pocket.

Deadeye
03-26-2018, 22:58
Frogg Toggs and an umbrella. Cheap, versatile and effective. I've carried, but never used, rain pants, so this year I'll try a rain kilt.

Khike
05-27-2018, 10:17
Ended up getting this, Foray Jacket from Outdoor Research. Mostly for the boat, 16oz.https://dfp2hfrf3mn0u.cloudfront.net/242/2429261219_232675_png_thumbnail_7.png My hiking bud has had a Foray for 8 yrs and still going strong. Should get this for hiking, Montbell Rain Trekker, 10 oz.https://www.montbell.us/products/prod_img/detail/c_2328168_ind.jpg (https://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=25013&p_id=2328168&gen_cd=1)Really like this one, Montbell Storm Cruiser. Very pricey. 10 Oz. https://www.montbell.us/products/prod_img/detail/c_2328147_prbl.jpg (https://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=25013&p_id=2328147&gen_cd=1)Good hiking. Kevin

SweetTea26
08-06-2018, 18:42
Are Frogg Toggs better than the Outdoor Research Helium ii?

TMathers
08-11-2018, 09:21
I have just got a lightheart gear rain jacket and have yet to try it out for any amount of use.

iio
08-13-2018, 03:35
I have just got a lightheart gear rain jacket and have yet to try it out for any amount of use.

I got the Lightheart gear rain jacket for my PCT hike last year. Had it made with an additional 4 inches in the body and 4 inches in the sleeves (tall guy) and love it! It didnít rain much on the PCT, but now I use it back home on my hikes in Alaska and it is so much better than dealing with supposedly breathable shells that leak.

Khike
02-03-2019, 11:10
Hello, again. So, I've been getting ready for a hike in April, from Springer to Neel's gap, just to see the NOBO's start. After much thought and packing my pack and weighing stuff and using LighterGear, I'm ditching the Foray pants and jacket for a Frogg Togg Ultalight 2. Why, you ask? I love the Versalite and Helium 2, they are so pretty, but Dude! The price, just can't justify it. 280 bucks for the Helium 2 set and 330 for the Versalite set. The Versalite is made from Gore Windstopper, not waterproof, from my research, just has a DWR coating, despite their waterproof and breathablility numbers. How waterproof can something be that you can see through? A lot of guys here use the FT's , so I'm gonna take their advice. 19 bucks shipped from Amazon. I could buy 16 pair for the price of them high priced doodies. I use the poncho for hiking in the rain and use the rain gear for camp and emergency's, to stay warm. So, I'll let ya' know how the FT work out. 11oz for the set vs 28 for the Foray set. Treat them nice and maybe they will last for a few miles. No brainer, I'm thinking. I feel so relieved, saved 17 oz and 310 dollars. Now I can bring more food!!! Kevin

Dogwood
02-03-2019, 11:46
You'll be wearing rain wear while hiking eventually. It can keep you warn also while more active. It's not always consistently 75* with no wind when it rains.

Wt of rainwear is but one aspect of rainwear. With those UL wts also come other possibly significant attributes.


I'd have separate rainwear for sailing verse backpacking/hiking. One activity tends towards a lightly active lower output endeavor while the other is more active.

Feral Bill
02-03-2019, 14:09
I got the Lightheart gear rain jacket for my PCT hike last year. Had it made with an additional 4 inches in the body and 4 inches in the sleeves (tall guy) and love it! It didn’t rain much on the PCT, but now I use it back home on my hikes in Alaska and it is so much better than dealing with supposedly breathable shells that leak. I got one of these last fall. It is a delight to use. For backpacking, as mentioned above, a Packa might serve you better.

Khike
02-03-2019, 14:34
Yes, I hear you guys, loud and clear. Reckon I'm gonna find out. One of my worries is putting on my pack over that expensive rain gear. Wouldn't ya' think that would wear the rain jacket out pretty quick, with the shoulder straps and such? And, yes, sailing is definitely less active. Plus, sailing, could be a lot of bending and scuffing and kneeling and cranking and stuff to hang up on, that would ruin, say, a Foray set, pretty quick. I hadn't thought about the temp and wind thing, you mentioned. I believe you would be right about that. The Packa is interesting. Feral Bill, how much that Packa cost you? I'm gonna get some plastic snaps to add to my poncho, to see if I can customize it to fit better. Maybe help keep out the wind, a little better. And, Dogwood, what might be some of those significant attributes of UL raingear, I'm wondering? Well, we will go with the FT for now. I know the Foray set is good gear, but heavy. I do love those stylish, expensive rain gear sets. Always nice to look good. Really trying to keep wgt down. At 25 lbs now, for 4 days. And that's with all the creature comforts that I like to have with me. Thanks, you guys always get me outta my blinders. Kevin

Khike
02-03-2019, 14:43
Hey, Dogwood, What rain gear do you use, for the AT? Kevin

Nathan428
02-03-2019, 15:10
I'm thinking either the Patagonia, 22 oz total or the Montbell, 21 oz total.

Is the Patagonia truly 22 oz? Website says it's 12 oz. I thru-ed the AT with one and loved it. And Patagonia is great about repairs, and even has the buy back program if you're concerned about value/durability. I recently ordered a OR Helium II and am annoyed at the lack of pockets and pit zips...something I obviously knew was coming but thought I'd get over for the weight. I've since looked at the lightheart gear jacket and that looks very appealing. Not sure on durability.

Khike
02-03-2019, 16:04
Yes, Nathan, I'm talking jacket and pants, together, when I mention wgt. You say your's held up well. I hear that a lot and I hear stories of different brands failing, rather quickly. But, I am taking what you said, under advisement. Thanks, kevin

Dogwood
02-03-2019, 17:12
Hey, Dogwood, What rain gear do you use, for the AT? Kevin
I tend towards being a .5 oz weenie. Previously, I mostly went with a 6.2 oz Marmot Mica, not the Super Mica or older Marmot Essence. I was having repeated membrane issues in about every other new set so eventually moved away to something more durable and reliable. The wt and feature set hooked me. Marmot Customer Service was great to work with replacing three of the Micas. I currently like a 6.4 oz 2017 version XL Montbell Versalite for the venting features, pit zips, velcro adjustable wrist cuffs, two way chest zip,(wish it had mesh through hand pockets though, 3x) or discontinued Zpacks Challenger version w/ pit zips for warmer periods when I'm going fast and light generating heat but still don't want to backpack completely soaked. For myself, backpacking consistently soaked for long durations is problematic. It's not just myself either. It's not always consistently 75* w/ no wind or exposure when it's raining! In winter or when consistently under 50* or so I go with a OR Helium II(a $60 beater, third one) or if going off trail on largely AT based hikes a 11 0z Arcteryx. I have three Arcteryx jackets. Disclosure: I get Arcteryx products and sometimes Montbell at a discount but still pay for them.

I tend to put in many varied miles annually although the last two yrs that has fallen off precipitously. As such I renew DWR's about every 12-18 months. I perceive maintaining gear as simply a part of my responsibility as a purchaser who hasn't yet hit on a Mega Millions ticket. I like spreading my use around to always have rain gear in very good functional condition. It's apiece I heavily rely since I'm often going so Ul occasionally SUL and kit integrated. It's not a piece that consistently stays unused in my pack most hrs of each day as can often be the situation for many others.
When carrying rain pants I have an older but still in great condition 4.5 oz GoLite Tumalo(these are not the full leg zips heavier version), new 3.8 oz in XL Raidlight Ultra MP(good results so far), and some asst heavier winter wet abrasive enduring pants. I wish I had bought some MB Versalite pants at sub 4 oz before they closed out. Montane Minimus rain pants is a somewhat fair comparison with the Shield DS as were the GL Tumalo that were originally the same material before going to GL's proprietary Trinity Deluge WP tech. Again, I like spreading the use around and will also pre hike test for WPness and MVTR. Again, rain pants are not worn just when it's raining. When dry I sleep in them and will use them as wind pants.

IMO, a rain poncho for the AT can be a viable alternative. I don't typically go that way because my shells are incorporated while on the move and in a sleep system as part of warmth retention and sometimes as pseudo VBL suit. I tend towards higher elev hikes sometimes almost entirely above tree line so greater exposure to cold and wind. For largely forested maintained wider tread ST very wet hikes like AT NOBO's a rain poncho can be great. FWIW, adequate thermoregulation(personal temp management) is not a skill we're all on equal footing in executing. Despite MVTR and breathability claims what I see as vastly more significant to thermoregulation is in proactive use of venting features in rain wear and secondly, appropriate layering. Rain ponchos remove some of the requiring of these awarenesses hence why IMHO adds to their popularity.

Don't get something too baggy or bulky but not too tight either. Consider your anticipated under layering bulk and ease of movement. When I go to the outfitter I jump around, turn my upper half, jog inside the store, touch my toes, raise my knees, angel wing, extend upwards fully, put on a weighted pack, do inclines, etc doing all that I might on trail. Since WB is a big Frogg Toggs crowd unless FT rain wear has changed I've always felt the arms to short and chest and waist hem entirely too baggy for myself. All "rain wear" isn't cut or designed equally. Plus FT pills in high wear areas especially shoulders and hip belt areas which to me sometimes look like someone wearing apparel they rolled around on the ground in at the landfill or new from the dryer with a bunch of lint in tow. But if saving $ are a priority FT's get you on the trail. Performance isn't all that bad either considering the purchase price.

If deciding on rain jackets and rain pants is for you you might consider these pts. BUT, it's your hike so think about YOUR anticipated needs, not necessarily making decisions based on why I do what I do or what others opt. Know thyself. Be a "free" thinker. :cool: You own it.

Feral Bill
02-03-2019, 18:03
Current price on the Packa is $92.50. I don't recall the weight but it is not much.

Cedar Tree
02-03-2019, 18:21
The Packa is interesting. Feral Bill, how much that Packa cost you?

The 30d Packas are $100 shipped to US. I'll have some 15d Packas available soon.
Cedar Tree

Khike
02-03-2019, 21:41
Don't worry Dog, total free thinker. I hike above the treeline, a bit. I would never bring a Togg on the Grand Loop, Colorado Trail or Elbert or Massive. Different deal. But for a few miles on the AT and in the interest of a lighter pack, I'm gonna give it a shot. If I was headed to the treeline, I'd have a whole different set of gear and priorities. And a 100 bucks for a Packa, is sweet, CT. Appreciate everybody's input, as always, insightful. kevin

Five Tango
02-04-2019, 09:30
Right or wrong,here's my rain kit-Light Heart Gear polyurethane jacket,Anti Gravity Gear rain kilt(on sale or I would have gone with LHG),knee high waterproof gaiters from Cabellas,Montbell wind shirt.ULA pack cover.Seal Skinz gloves.Seal skinz socks with a light wool liner(they work).I really hate wet feet.I went with the knee highs.

This system keeps me dry enough while hiking in about 48F day long drizzle but understand what everyone says about getting soaked in your own sweat is Absolutely True.The LHG being well vented may help keep you from getting overheated but,trust me,you will be soaked to the skin when you arrive camp;particularly the torso in my case as the rain kilt allows proper ventilation and cooling while preserving body heat.

So once camp is made I switch into dry clothes which would include a fleece top,long johns,wind pants,wind shirt.
If I need the LHG jacket I put it on over the windshirt to keep the fleece from picking up moisture off the inside of the rain jacket.My goal is to always have the puffy jacket in the hammock with the quilts,high and dry until bed time.

Recently I did purchase a Snug Pack Poncho with sleeves with the idea that I could hold the rain jacket in reserve until evening around camp and eliminate my pack cover.Although I have not used it yet,it's pretty obvious that the temps need to be under 50F or I believe it would be too hot to hike in.Additionally,the Snugpack Poncho is a bit on the short side so if you get one you will need either a rain kilt,rain pants,or knee high gaiters if you want to keep your lower legs dry.I have hiked with others who were wet from the knees down and could tell their misery index was considerably higher than mine in the same conditions.Note:my weather limits are night temps mid 20's and day highs forecast for at least 40 F.My system handles that for me.YMMV

Khike
02-04-2019, 13:18
Hello Five Tango, How do those Seal Skins work out for you? I don't like wet feets, either. Kevin

Dogwood
02-04-2019, 14:49
Opting for a non breathable fabric rain jacket even if does have long pit zips and full chest zip IMO you better be mindful of proactively mechanically ventilating and have an even better awareness of thermoregulating. Even in colder weather heat inside can build up fast additionally so if you don't meter your pace and ignore output. Functioning breathability plays a role in thermoregulation too despite comments to the contrary. One can test this for themselves with a cheap yellow totally unbreathable PVC or polyester 2 piece yellow jacket and pants from HD or Lowes. Wear such a non breathable jacket and pants combo with a backpack on even at a moderately light pace on flat ground in 45-55* weather with no rain and note how fast heat and vapor builds up inside such non breathable pieces. Now, consider if it was raining with humidity as can be common for the AT. Then, switch to high MVTR WP breathable rain pants and jacket under the same scenario. That should demonstrate that breathability isn't all marketing BS as some make it out to be.

Really, we shouldn't be so quick to blame the gear or tech. PERHAPS, at least in some cases, it's more accurate if we examine the extent of user's abilities/inabilities. Sometimes, and perhaps often, we are our own worse enemy.

lonehiker
02-04-2019, 15:03
Dog, I've grown to like you a bit over the last few years. I think you, at times, have a keen wit and good sense of humor. But, damn, you over-think things...

Dogwood
02-04-2019, 15:07
Hello Five Tango, How do those Seal Skins work out for you? I don't like wet feets, either. Kevin
If I may, I like the SealSkinz Walking light mid and light ankle WP socks. I tried getting the DexShell bamboo WP socks but missed out at an REI closeout. I like going with lighter wts and modular foot system. As it gets colder I too like Five Tango will add different wt merino socks as a liner for greater wicking and warmth. Showers Pass WP socks sold in teh bike section are similar sold at REI. Another WP sock I've had long term dry satisfaction in cooler wet weather are Hanz Calf height. To me if I get a tight seal at the top and the WP socks don't slide down or bunch up from my perspective it's much like having WP footwear but the WP membrane is now in the sock and thus removable providing options. Now, I can go with non WP lighter wt trail runners. This can provide the gradient needed for appropriate wicking of a WP sock. Personally, when I do use a WP sock on extended backpacking trips of mixed weather I'll carry a second pr of shorter merino socks like DT's, SW's, IB's, or Bridgedales. I've use WP socks successfully too many times as a cold weather fisherman, winter sports activists, and hiker to not recognize they have value and a place in my sock arsenal.

Dogwood
02-04-2019, 15:15
Dog, I've grown to like you a bit over the last few years. I think you, at times, have a keen wit and good sense of humor. But, damn, you over-think things...

Hopefully, just a bit, to keep us honest and me on my toes. Yeah, I can be profound. :D ;)

Seriously, Lonehiker observe on trail how often you note how many have issues regulating their body temp.

John Abela did a nice piece on thermoregulation. It applies to apparel layering stems which rainwear is a component. How often do you see a rainwear piece being used wearing no other apparel. https://hikelighter.com/2012/04/01/what-is-core-temperature-how-important-is-it-what-you-need-to-do-and-know/

Five Tango
02-04-2019, 19:33
Hello Five Tango, How do those Seal Skins work out for you? I don't like wet feets, either. Kevin

I wear them almost exclusively now except for extremely hot weather.As long as the water does not get over the top of the sock your foot will stay dry.However,it is important that the shoe must vent water well and not be of the waterproof variety;the reason being that if and when water gets trapped in the shoe your foot is going to feel the cold clammy feeling of being immersed in water that is inside the shoe.Your shoes have to drain properly or it will be moderately miserable.In a well drained shoe the water pumps out quickly and your feet get happy in short order!

My last outing we wound up having to wade a flooded area to bushwhack back to the truck.When I arrived at home my right foot was dry and the left had about two tablespoonfuls that had topped the sock.Yes.it was knee deep water I'm talking about.The liners I use are simple REI light wool liner socks.I wear them at home too.

Another feature of the Seal Skinz knee high sock is that they keep my legs warm.With the liner,the SS sock,pants,and a knee high gaiter I wear no base layer below the waist other than regular Ex Officio boxers.
For summer I keep a shorter pair of Seal Skinz to use around camp inside a wet shoe to help negate the need for camp/water shoes.I think that pair of socks weighs in around 3 oz. or so.I have hiked in them after the shoe got soaked and put the Darn Tuff socks in a pants pocket to dry out.

Khike
02-05-2019, 09:55
Hey Dog, I love Ya'! Thermoregulation? When you gonna break out the pie charts? https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/billionaire-businessman-ross-perot-pointing-to-chart-during-tv-his-picture-id50705175

Dogwood
02-05-2019, 20:26
You got me. Wait till I blow the dust off that packed away statistical mathematics BS and recite Thermo Dynamics I & II class material. :D BPL wonks wind me up and then I fuel the flames with caffeine.

gbolt
02-08-2019, 13:30
The Packa solves many rain wear issues and is worth the cost IMHO. Here is a video review: http://youtu.be/2xRx-og2MY8

I also use Marmot Rain Pants but as much for wind and cold layering system; as well as ZPacks Rain Kilt.

Traillium
02-09-2019, 00:11
The Packa solves many rain wear issues and is worth the cost IMHO. Here is a video review: http://youtu.be/2xRx-og2MY8

I also use Marmot Rain Pants but as much for wind and cold layering system; as well as ZPacks Rain Kilt.

Great video! When my poncho gives out ó or before ó Iíll be ordering a Packa.


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Cedar Tree
02-10-2019, 08:50
The Packa solves many rain wear issues and is worth the cost IMHO. Here is a video review: http://youtu.be/2xRx-og2MY8

I also use Marmot Rain Pants but as much for wind and cold layering system; as well as ZPacks Rain Kilt.

Thank you Gbolt for the review. I'd like to add your review to my website if Ok with you?
CT

gbolt
02-10-2019, 10:51
Thank you Gbolt for the review. I'd like to add your review to my website if Ok with you?
CT

That would be awesome! Anything to help those that make Hiking all the more enjoyable!