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View Full Version : Any reason why you wouldnít opt for Lineloc 3ís on cuben tarp vs std D rings?



saltysack
01-26-2018, 11:13
After being overwhelmed with all the Dutch options for tarp guy lines...canít imagine being any lighter, faster or better than simple UL Lineloc 3ís...am I missing anything? Dutch also seems to always use shock chord at all guy outs...Iíve used shock chord with a sil tarp/tent in past to keep tight when wet but with cuben donít see the need..what am I missing???


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Venchka
01-26-2018, 11:38
Shock cord: Are you saying the entire guy lines are shock cord? Or just a loop at the stake end?
In either case the shock cord acts as a shock absorber for wind loading. Far more important to me than the so called silnylon sag. Neither of my newer silnylon tents sag noticeably.
Good luck.
Wayne

D2maine
01-26-2018, 12:02
After being overwhelmed with all the Dutch options for tarp guy lines...can’t imagine being any lighter, faster or better than simple UL Lineloc 3’s...am I missing anything? Dutch also seems to always use shock chord at all guy outs...I’ve used shock chord with a sil tarp/tent in past to keep tight when wet but with cuben don’t see the need..what am I missing???


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lineloc 3 are only good for 2.5mm to 3mm cord a lot of people want to use smaller cord than that such as zing-it which is 1.75mm.

DuneElliot
01-26-2018, 12:43
I think I mentioned this on your other post. I use the Lineloc 3 on my CF tarp with ZPacks' ZLine Dyneema cord (the same as on their Plex tents) and really like them, but then I really like them on my Duplex too so I just went with simplicity and familiarity.

MuddyWaters
01-26-2018, 14:32
I I just tie a taut line hitch and make my guy out adjustable with that. At limits it to about 2-1 adjustability ratio though. This is plenty on a shaped tarp which can only be pitched moderately higher or lower.

tagg
01-26-2018, 14:54
After being overwhelmed with all the Dutch options for tarp guy lines...can’t imagine being any lighter, faster or better than simple UL Lineloc 3’s...am I missing anything? Dutch also seems to always use shock chord at all guy outs...I’ve used shock chord with a sil tarp/tent in past to keep tight when wet but with cuben don’t see the need..what am I missing???

I use 1.25mm z-line on my tarp, but use the Micro Line Locs instead of the LineLoc 3 to get around the diameter issues that D2maine was talking about. For me, they're about as fast and easy as it gets and I don't have to fiddle with tying knots when it's raining or cold. I can tie a knot if I need to, but for 0.7 grams each, I don't need to.

I also took the shock cords off of my guy lines after I went to cuben and became more experienced with the pitch.

fastfoxengineering
01-26-2018, 15:18
Dutch hook worms work excellent for me on my flat tarp where I move a bunch of guyouts around while playing with pitches. I have small loops of cord larks headed into each tie out. My stakes then have 8 feet of cord spliced on to them. The other end has a bury so the hook work can never come off. Ideal system for me when moving guylines around. I get to use the cord I like, it's lighter than line locs, and works excellent. Also the cord being spliced onto the stake and the bury keeping the hookworm from being lost is a nice feature.

Yama Mountain Gear makes a line loc with a hook on one end to accomplish the same goal. It's bigger and heavier than a dutch hookworm though by a couple grams. Also you need to consider different diameter cords need to be used for line locs vs worms.

Some guys also just use knots. A tauntline hitch or truckers hitch can work really well. I've found I don't like going smaller than 2.3mm Lawson glowire when using hitches to secure guylines though. Depending on the material/diameter of the cord either makes working with knots simple or a headache/failure. Knots will be hard to tie/untie and potentially slip.

Shock cord loops are typically added to silnylon and even silpoly tarps. That material has a tendency to stretch when pitched and the shockcord acts as an automatic tensioner.

Cuben Fiber does not stretch. Guy it out. Make it taunt. And it should be the same in the AM.

Don't give up on all this hard wear cause it's overwhelming. Everyone I used to hang with is very competent with using knots to stake out tarps. They now all use either dutchware or line locs.

I like a really clean setup. I also don't like bright guy lines. I do like reflective tracers in guy lines.

I splice and larkshead a 2.5" diamter continuous loop onto each of my tie outs. When I'm not using that tie out, they don't flap or nothing and you don't really notice they're there.

I have a mixture of tent stakes. They each have a brown reflective guyline with a loop spliced onto one end that fits the stake they go on snugly. Never come off of one another. 8' of that line then goes up to a dutch hook worm. On the end of that line there is a backbury. This is now bigger than the hole in the hookworm and so it cannot come of the line.

I find it easier/faster/less fussy to pack up a tarp with no lines attached than one with it. Especially on when there are 8 guylines of 8' in length. I typically leave the two Ridgeline guylines on the tarp permanently cause I always use these when pitching.





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Dogwood
01-26-2018, 16:44
After being overwhelmed with all the Dutch options for tarp guy lines...canít imagine being any lighter, faster or better than simple UL Lineloc 3ís...am I missing anything? Dutch also seems to always use shock chord at all guy outs...Iíve used shock chord with a sil tarp/tent in past to keep tight when wet but with cuben donít see the need..what am I missing???


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkU recently posted you're going to a hammock so I assume you are now referring to hammock tarps? And of what fabric?

Hammock tarps are often subject to higher gust loads than ground tarp configs. or such shelters as the MLD Duomid. When it's very cold, with snow/ice in the mix, very windy, anticipating much exposure, using a lighter wt cuben below .75 and in some silny tarp apps I roll with the LineLoc3's and/or a shock cord segment while paying attention to equally distributing tension. At other times I roll with Micros or knots. For hammock Asym tarping in high winds like on coastal hikes on HI with two static rigelines I like to side guy out with shock cord segments. I'm not familiar with all the differnt Duthware guy out hardware.

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Dogwood
01-26-2018, 17:55
I'm not picturing how and why one uses std D rings on guyouts. Do tell.

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fastfoxengineering
01-26-2018, 18:00
I'm not picturing how and why one uses std D rings on guyouts. Do tell.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using TapatalkI've seen plenty of plastic d rings break. Especially in cold weather when they get brittle.

They're supposedly used to distribute the load more evenly across the tie out.

I've personally never seen a properly sewed tie out fail using tying lines directly to tie outs.

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Dogwood
01-26-2018, 18:24
Ohh, so if I'm getting what you're saying the plastic D rings have some slight movement or stretch? They can certainly bend. I too have seen a few plastic D rings including larger heavier ones snap. That may have been in part to higher stress loads and/or improper tensioning I'm guessing.

fastfoxengineering
01-26-2018, 18:32
Ohh, so if I'm getting what you're saying the plastic D rings have some slight movement or stretch? They can certainly bend. I too have seen a few plastic D rings including larger heavier ones snap. That may have been in part to higher stress loads and/or improper tensioning I'm guessing.Well tying knots, even larks head loops onto tie outs concentrates stress to small areas on the tie out. A d ring distributes the tension stress across the width of the tie out. There's more surface area spread across the d ring to the tie out than a small diameter cord to the tie out. It's true in theory. And it can be examined, tested, and proved.

However, in the real world. The guy line and tie out materials I have ever used have been plenty strong enough even when localizing this stress. I don't need to distribute the load. If you were using very weak material to make tie outs then I would reconsider.

A round d ring deforms and spreads loads across the piece of hardware better than a triangle d ring which localizes stresses at the corners.

But yeah.. plastic gets brittle in cold weather. Brittle things snap easily.



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saltysack
01-26-2018, 19:42
Dutch hook worms work excellent for me on my flat tarp where I move a bunch of guyouts around while playing with pitches. I have small loops of cord larks headed into each tie out. My stakes then have 8 feet of cord spliced on to them. The other end has a bury so the hook work can never come off. Ideal system for me when moving guylines around. I get to use the cord I like, it's lighter than line locs, and works excellent. Also the cord being spliced onto the stake and the bury keeping the hookworm from being lost is a nice feature.

Yama Mountain Gear makes a line loc with a hook on one end to accomplish the same goal. It's bigger and heavier than a dutch hookworm though by a couple grams. Also you need to consider different diameter cords need to be used for line locs vs worms.

Some guys also just use knots. A tauntline hitch or truckers hitch can work really well. I've found I don't like going smaller than 2.3mm Lawson glowire when using hitches to secure guylines though. Depending on the material/diameter of the cord either makes working with knots simple or a headache/failure. Knots will be hard to tie/untie and potentially slip.

Shock cord loops are typically added to silnylon and even silpoly tarps. That material has a tendency to stretch when pitched and the shockcord acts as an automatic tensioner.

Cuben Fiber does not stretch. Guy it out. Make it taunt. And it should be the same in the AM.

Don't give up on all this hard wear cause it's overwhelming. Everyone I used to hang with is very competent with using knots to stake out tarps. They now all use either dutchware or line locs.

I like a really clean setup. I also don't like bright guy lines. I do like reflective tracers in guy lines.

I splice and larkshead a 2.5" diamter continuous loop onto each of my tie outs. When I'm not using that tie out, they don't flap or nothing and you don't really notice they're there.

I have a mixture of tent stakes. They each have a brown reflective guyline with a loop spliced onto one end that fits the stake they go on snugly. Never come off of one another. 8' of that line then goes up to a dutch hook worm. On the end of that line there is a backbury. This is now bigger than the hole in the hookworm and so it cannot come of the line.

I find it easier/faster/less fussy to pack up a tarp with no lines attached than one with it. Especially on when there are 8 guylines of 8' in length. I typically leave the two Ridgeline guylines on the tarp permanently cause I always use these when pitching.





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Assume u must not use Shep hooks as canít see how u would attach permanently....


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fastfoxengineering
01-26-2018, 19:51
Assume u must not use Shep hooks as canít see how u would attach permanently....


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYour right. Buy you could tie a bowline nice and tight to a shepherds hook. They don't typically slip off when tight. If they do a quick Marlin spike hitch or bowline and your in business. I know some people splice a very small eyelet on one end of cord and slip a shepherds hook into it. Can you take it right off, sure. In my experience it stays put very well.

I shouldnt have used the word permanent. My Vstakes have holes in them and my cord is attached permanently to those stakes.

I carry 6 v stakes and two shepherds hooks.

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saltysack
01-26-2018, 20:08
Your right. Buy you could tie a bowline nice and tight to a shepherds hook. They don't typically slip off when tight. If they do a quick Marlin spike hitch or bowline and your in business. I know some people splice a very small eyelet on one end of cord and slip a shepherds hook into it. Can you take it right off, sure. In my experience it stays put very well.

I shouldnt have used the word permanent. My Vstakes have holes in them and my cord is attached permanently to those stakes.

I carry 6 v stakes and two shepherds hooks.

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Ok..Iíve been using 4 of the longer Eastonís for corners on Duomid and 4 shepherds. Eastonís have a hole so cold go that route. I did like the hook worm option of clipping folded back to keep open.


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Dogwood
01-26-2018, 20:17
Thought D rings were only D shaped. I stand engineering nomenclature corrected. ;)

fastfoxengineering
01-26-2018, 20:51
Thought D rings were only D shaped. I stand engineering nomenclature corrected. ;)Lol your right! D rings are D shaped but i kinda through the triangles into the mix.


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fastfoxengineering
01-26-2018, 20:58
Ok..Iíve been using 4 of the longer Eastonís for corners on Duomid and 4 shepherds. Eastonís have a hole so cold go that route. I did like the hook worm option of clipping folded back to keep open.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI think that is a great feature of using hook worms. It's also nice when packing up in the morning as my tarp is typically the last thing I take down. I'll get up. Clip the tarp back. Pack up my quilts and such. Then my hammock. Then my tarp.

But that's just my routine. Sometimes I like to clip the tarp back in good weather and have my morning coffee sitting in the hammock as a lounger. Don't have as much head room when the tarp is pitched down.

I have found when hammocking.. 90% of the time I'm in porch mode. Very rarely do I need to hunker my tarp down.

I'm on the ground for now using a hexamid tarp. So guylines stay attached. I've got a flat tarp I've been experimenting with. Keep the guylines separate. I use hookworms.

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Dogwood
01-26-2018, 22:41
Ok..I’ve been using 4 of the longer Easton’s for corners on Duomid and 4 shepherds. Easton’s have a hole so cold go that route. I did like the hook worm option of clipping folded back to keep open.


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1) Be mindful of where and of what length you employ shepherd hook stakes. They don't grab well in the dry sand of Fla nor in water logged loose mud and soil. You could try longer ones but I'd still most often not have shepherd hooks as my Fla go to tent, ground tarp, or hammock tarp stakes nor use them under high winds. Might also not use on ridgeline ground tarp and hammock side guy outs as these locations receive a lot of force. Use a different stake in these locations. This is why some cottage gear and other outfitters vend stake sets consisting of different stakes.


2) When using and want to tie line to them hammer/push carefully(don't bend them) all the way into the ground so the top reversed tip is also in the ground but as vertical as you can get and place a stone on top. It keeps the guy out line from slipping off or the shepherd stake from rotating. It also helps keeping the line on the shepherd hook stake if you opt for a top curve with a longer tag end to which you then bend down towards the shaft after you tie on.

3) Not all Ti shepherd hook designs are equal at holding either. The thinnest gram weenie ones can bend or loosen up more easily than the ever so slightly heavier wire gauge.


I've bought entirely too many Ti shepherd hook stakes and experienced a pulled out shepherd hook at critical times like when windy or raining in the middle of the night.

Dogwood
01-26-2018, 22:43
Ok..I’ve been using 4 of the longer Easton’s for corners on Duomid and 4 shepherds...


There you go. Apply your same thinking to other tarp and shelter set ups.

saltysack
01-27-2018, 00:24
1) Be mindful of where and of what length you employ shepherd hook stakes. They don't grab well in the dry sand of Fla nor in water logged loose mud and soil. You could try longer ones but I'd still most often not have shepherd hooks as my Fla go to tent, ground tarp, or hammock tarp stakes nor use them under high winds. Might also not use on ridgeline ground tarp and hammock side guy outs as these locations receive a lot of force. Use a different stake in these locations. This is why some cottage gear and other outfitters vend stake sets consisting of different stakes.


2) When using and want to tie line to them hammer/push carefully(don't bend them) all the way into the ground so the top reversed tip is also in the ground but as vertical as you can get and place a stone on top. It keeps the guy out line from slipping off or the shepherd stake from rotating. It also helps keeping the line on the shepherd hook stake if you opt for a top curve with a longer tag end to which you then bend down towards the shaft after you tie on.

3) Not all Ti shepherd hook designs are equal at holding either. The thinnest gram weenie ones can bend or loosen up more easily than the ever so slightly heavier wire gauge.


I've bought entirely too many Ti shepherd hook stakes and experienced a pulled out shepherd hook at critical times like when windy or raining in the middle of the night.

I hear ya...the thicker shepherds Iíve bought from Dutch and Lawson donít seem to bend or spin like the previous ones I used in the past. Yep the thin stakes stink in soft sandy soil...the longer Eastonís I got from MLD work well with a slight wt penalty


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MuddyWaters
01-27-2018, 02:40
Lol your right! D rings are D shaped but i kinda through the triangles into the mix.

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Depends on the font.
Ds are anything from triangles to ovals
In the Greek alphabet they are triangle and not even a side wards facing one.