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Bronk
02-25-2018, 15:10
Interested in hearing a pro/con discussion of waterproof footwear for hiking.

One con that is making me seriously reconsider waterproofing is that once the inside gets wet, they take forever to dry back out. Not that big of a deal on a weekend hike but for longer hikes this may be very uncomfortable. Just got hit with a downpour here and I spent several hours working outside in the pouring rain and by the time it was done I was soaked to the bone...my shoes were soaked...left them in front of a heater overnight to dry and they were dry by morning...except for the inside soles of the shoes...the kind of damp where within 2 minutes of walking around your feet feel wet because the water soaked through your socks.

If these were high top boot type hiking shoes they probably never would have gotten wet inside to begin with, but when you're out in the rain for hours and your pants are soaked through and the water is running down your leg, its just going to happen. And I've often gotten these shoes wet many times before but the moisture never got inside. I'm thinking they would dry out a lot faster without waterproofing.

MtDoraDave
02-25-2018, 15:25
My waterproof Keen Targhee 2 mids are only temporarily waterproof. Eventually, they leak, and yes, when they do get soaked it takes about two days of dry weather to hike them dry.

nsherry61
02-25-2018, 15:47
For day hikes, WP can be very handy. But inevitably, all the waterproof shoes/boots I've ever owned have failed while still essentially brand new. They still resist a quick step in a puddle, but soak through if hiking in continuous wet grass, wet snow, or continuous puddles.

ldsailor
02-25-2018, 17:42
I've hiked over 1,000 miles on the Appalachian Trail with Columbia Newton Ridge waterproof boots. They are completely waterproof, which has been tested over and over going through streams and in rain storms. Only once did the inside get wet, which was totally my fault, when I was caught in a rainstorm. It took about 24 hours of the boots sitting in front of a fan at a hostel for them to dry out completely. From that experience, I learned my lesson. I now wear waterproof gaiters and that has resolved the water intrusion problem. The key is don't put your foot in anything deeper than the top of your boots and wear the gaiters.

interestingly enough, it wasn't the water soaking that prompted me to start wearing gaiters. I found that when I hike in shorts, even boots will pick up dirt, sticks, stones, etc. After a day of hiking, my socks were filthy. That is primarily why I started wearing gaiters. The bonus of fending off water intrusion was a happy coincidence, which I discovered in a rainstorm.

devoidapop
02-25-2018, 17:48
Well oiled, all leather boots with a gusset tongue have always worked for me. I don't wear mine much anymore because my feet swell up too much for boots.

Nanatuk
02-25-2018, 18:27
Waterproof socks are easier to clean and dry than boots or shoes. I have a pair of Sealskins that I use if it looks like I'll be walking in wet or snow.

devoidapop
02-25-2018, 18:52
Waterproof socks are easier to clean and dry than boots or shoes. I have a pair of Sealskins that I use if it looks like I'll be walking in wet or snow.

How many days can you go with the Sealskins before needing a good wash? I've never worn a WP sock.

Slo-go'en
02-25-2018, 18:54
I'll say it for the 1000th time, GTX boots. They do breath a little bit and they do keep most of the water out, without being a vapor barrier like a well oiled leather boot would be. Although in the right conditions a well oiled leather boot is hard to beat.

scrabbler
02-25-2018, 19:19
I think the best of both worlds is to spray non-waterproof shoes with the silicone water proofing spray. They will shed water but still breath.

Dogwood
02-25-2018, 20:13
One con that is making me seriously reconsider waterproofing is that once the inside gets wet, they take forever to dry back out.

This is an oversimplification and generalized exaggeration

Not that big of a deal on a weekend hike but for longer hikes this may be very uncomfortable.


I'd say true. Operable word though being may.



Just got hit with a downpour here and I spent several hours working outside in the pouring rain and by the time it was done I was soaked to the bone...my shoes were soaked...left them in front of a heater overnight to dry and they were dry by morning...except for the inside soles of the shoes...the kind of damp where within 2 minutes of walking around your feet feel wet because the water soaked through your sock.

This depends on things like your set up.

If these were high top boot type hiking shoes they probably never would have gotten wet inside to begin with

Maybe, but again it depends on several things including your overall set up.

, but when you're out in the rain for hours and your pants are soaked through and the water is running down your leg, its just going to happen.

Very likely. But, then it begs the question why was moisture running down your leg inside your pants?

Ive gotten wet many times before but the moisture never got inside.

Ask yourself why?

I'm thinking they would dry out a lot faster without waterproofing.

Maybe. Different kinds of approaches and notions of what WPing entail.

Dogwood
02-25-2018, 20:21
Waterproof socks are easier to clean and dry than boots or shoes. I have a pair of Sealskins that I use if it looks like I'll be walking in wet or snow.

There are different approaches to this getting wet issue. Most all have merit or usability under various scenarios. This is one approach. I generally agree with Nanatuk. It is often easier to dry a separate WP sock and non WP shoe. This is a generalization on my part and not offered as an absolute though.

Dogwood
02-25-2018, 20:30
Most times I personally take Nanatuk's approach but take a second pr of socks usually light wt merino. MOST in context of a wide range of situations and hikes not just the AT during any one season.

However, under all wet situations this still does not mean I totally or always rely on WP socks. I may also address wet feet proactively where there is a very high likely hood I will get wet feet by using a product such as Berts Bees Res Q Ointment using Andrew Skurka's article advice.

Dogwood
02-25-2018, 20:38
It also does not mean succumbing to a general duality - WP shoes bad, WP shoes good approach ignoring context.

I will use WP footwear on some hikes. However, I rarely no longer rely solely on any type of WP shoe to keep feet dry. Keeping feet dry for myself, when I choose that approach in part or entirely, means looking at my entire set up

Dogwood
02-25-2018, 20:56
For example, in cooler temps(winter, shoulder seasons) in mixed conditions(snow traversing, periods of long heavy rain, sleet) I may use WP shoes(Altra LP mid Neoshell or Keen Targhee II low or mid cuts), WP socks(colder it is more insulated the sock), UL WP or highly WR pants(Montbells, Montane, or Schoeller fabric), MLD rain chaps, WP eVent or Neoshell or other WR shortie gaiter. It's all intentionaly layered not giving into water dripping down inside the leg into the shoe. This may mean not letting water drip off my head and/or into a jacket then into pants then entering shoes.

This system is tweaked the warmer the environment.

Dogwood
02-25-2018, 21:04
Manywill solely blame gear such as WP pants, WP jackets and WP shoes as the sole reason of experiencing internal moisture being introduced into the system when it is not the only factor in satisfactorily employing this gear. User ability and matching approach and appropriate gear choices to the hike and conditions is often more at fault!

Slo-go'en
02-25-2018, 21:07
The thing is, on average the AT is a wet trail. In the context of the AT, Gortex boots are a wise choice. Your feet will stay significantly drier then someone with non WP shoes and therefore require less maintenance.

Dogwood
02-25-2018, 21:13
These threads often go down a rabbit hole of fragmented approaches and sometimes heated debates and out of context long winded endless loop individually biased opinions ultimately resulting in confusion for those seeking solutions. I sincerely hope what was shared, even though long winded, offers greater context to the discussion.

nsherry61
02-25-2018, 21:19
WP shoes are useful. Non WP shoes are useful. Buy both. Use both. You'll appreciate both. See what works best for you in your various situations.

Dogwood
02-25-2018, 21:45
You older guys are demonstrating insight, maturity, options, and personal responsibility. For example, look at what Idsailor posted. He's still open to learning, not willing to solely blame his gear or pass the buck. And, he's better for it!

These traits can embody one of any age.

Andrew Skurka learns from every hike, publicly offers sometimes harsh personal opinions about what he could have done better, while injecting levity. And, he's not in the habit of solely blaming his gear when something is of an issue. Andrew is aware it sometimes is himself or his ability, approach, or choices that are most significant.

egilbe
02-25-2018, 22:07
If it's cold, like Winter hiking, I use waterproof insulated boots. For normal three season hiking, I don't care if my feet get wet, they'll dry in trail runners quick enough. I've started out with goretex hiking boots, but found that when my feet get wet, they stay wet, all day! Trail runners, they get wet, dry out, get wet, dry out, get wet, dry out.

Nanatuk
02-25-2018, 22:37
How many days can you go with the Sealskins before needing a good wash? I've never worn a WP sock.
I wear them during the winter and spring for my 7 mile morning hike. I usually wear them all week before washing. My feet stay dry and warm. I've never worn them above about 40 degrees so not sure how comfortable they would be in spring time rains. I usually just were merinos once spring hits. I've kind of gotten used to walking in wet socks due to the heavy dew in the mornings around here. Initial cold shock doesn't last long and my feet quickly heat up the wet socks. I think If I was walking all day, I'd probably change socks at lunch so the wet pair had a chance to dry during the heat of the day.

I'm hiking in Altra Lone Peaks which are not waterproof in any way. They dry pretty quickly.

Dogwood
02-25-2018, 23:06
LPs come in non WP and WP versions as well as low and mid cuts (a low mid cut). Which ones are you referring?

Also, I have older crew height Sealskinz. Don't know the yr or 100% the wt. I guess they are mid wt if I had to guess
Side by side, all things being the same HANZ WP socks are preferred.

What version Sealskinz are you referring? I've been wanting to demo the current Sealskinz Walking Thin Ankle socks for warmer weather which I suspect may get my nod over the HANZ for these conditions.

HooKooDooKu
02-25-2018, 23:15
Boots with a waterproof layer such as Goretex will only dry when it's dryer outside the boot than inside the boot.

For those that don't understand Goretex (and similar materials), it is a material that is full of tiny holes, so small that water droplets can not pass thru it. But the holes are big enough to allow water vapor to pass thru. But for water vapor to move thru the Goretex, it requires the vapor pressure inside the material to be higher than the vapor pressure outside the material. That's sort of a fancy way of saying it has to be drier outside the material than inside the material.

So when you're wearing Goretex boots and it's raining outside and water gets inside your boot, water vapor isn't going to push thru the Goretex and allow your feet to dry.

And when it comes to hiking in the rain, it doesn't require rain running down your leg into your boot for your feet to get wet. Feet sweat, and in dry conditions, that sweat will evaporate in your boot and push thru the Goretex layer. But if the outside of your boot is staying wet because rain is falling on it, that sweat will build up inside your boot and get your feet wet.

Dogwood
02-25-2018, 23:43
I've never heard it explained exactly that way. You must work for the dreaded Gortex Corp. That was good.:)

egilbe
02-26-2018, 08:12
Goretex fails when it gets dirty, too. I can imagine splashing through mud puddles all day is going to help keep a goretex lining in boots or shoes clean.

devoidapop
02-26-2018, 08:19
Goretex fails when it gets dirty, too. I can imagine splashing through mud puddles all day is going to help keep a goretex lining in boots or shoes clean.

...and red clay, forget about it

nsherry61
02-26-2018, 08:59
Goretex fails when it gets dirty, too. I can imagine splashing through mud puddles all day is going to help keep a goretex lining in boots or shoes clean.

As HooKooDooKu points out, when the outside of the membrane is wet from grass, ground water, or rain, they're breathability no better than tight fitting rubber boots (real rubber boots breath better cuz they're loose).

As egilbe points out, the membranes can fail when they get dirty, so feet are a questionable place to use GTX.

Now, I've been using GTX boots and shoes intermittently since they first became available (sometime in the 80's if I recall?). I've had conversations with more than one shoe company sales rep that swears their GTX waterproof footwear is waterproof for life and they will stand behind their product. And, I've read on this forum posts by people that swear their GTX footwear lasts well and is reliable.
I'm here to say I have NEVER had a pair of GTX shoes or boots stay truly waterproof, (i.e. sufficently water tight to keep my feet dry while I a standing in a puddle, walking through wet grass or slushy snow) for more than about 1/2 of a season. I might have had one pair once that lasted a whole hiking season, but, I don't think so.

I have owned GXT boots or shoes Vasque (3 pair), Merrell (2 pair?), Obos (2 pair), and I honestly don't remember what other ones. At some point, I get tired of returning leaking boots or shoes to the supplier and give up.

At this point in my life, I still own a couple pair of GTX hiking shoes, and I use them when I'm day hiking or walking in slushy snow or muddy trails because they keep my feet drier than my non-GTX footwear and I have boot driers to place them on when I get home.

My big problem is that given my 100% failure rate on every pair of GTX footwear I've ever used from multiple reputable manufacturers over several decades. HOW THE HECK IS ANYONE WITH ANY LEGITIMACY CLAIMING THEIR GTX SHOES/BOOTS WATERPROOFING WORKS AND LAST RELIABLY OVER TIME?? . . . by the way, I have the same question and problem with Gortex or other WPB clothing, it just lasts more like two or three years before complete failure instead of just one season.

sarac
02-26-2018, 16:25
For shorter hikes, I've used Vibrams

MuddyWaters
02-26-2018, 18:16
Your feet sweat......a lot.
Just like any other waterproof, and supposedly breatheable, clothing,
Nothing is ever breatheable enough to keep up with exertion in warm weather.

Socks are damp with sweat from hiking in even breatheable trail runners if you are sweating. Worse for sure....in waterproof footwear.

If the temp isnt below 35-40F, not needed, imo. And probably detrimental.
As the temperature declines it becomes much more useful.

poolskaterx
02-26-2018, 18:17
I have had very good success with My Lasportiva Synthesis mids. They claim to have an air push system that vents while letting the gortex keep water out. I am no scientist or engineer but I have had SO many "waterproof" boots that have failed that I did not have much faith in these; I am pleasantly surprised after 2 years of use. I've worn em on 110 degree days, I've have soaked them by stepping in water too deep and they dried quickly, wore them in snow supplemented with a 1 thin pair and one very thick pair of wool socks to keep my feet warm (not much insulation in these boots and they really do breath.. you can feel it in your steps). I will buy a second pair when these wear out; oh, the traction is amazing!

For the record, this is the only pair of goretex boots that have worked as I thought they should out of probably over 10 different boots I have owned over the past 20 years (hi-tec (2), asolo(4), northface(3), merell(2),vasque(1),brooks(1), Raichle, etc...

Dogwood
02-27-2018, 02:59
My big problem is that given my 100% failure rate on every pair of GTX footwear I've ever used from multiple reputable manufacturers over several decades. HOW THE HECK IS ANYONE WITH ANY LEGITIMACY CLAIMING THEIR GTX SHOES/BOOTS WATERPROOFING WORKS AND LAST RELIABLY OVER TIME?? . . . by the way, I have the same question and problem with Gortex or other WPB clothing, it just lasts more like two or three years before complete failure instead of just one season.

Feel better since you got that rant off?

I don't have that problem because all those pieces never last me over the long term. Lol

The WPing lasts; it's everything else that doesn't yet affects the WPness.

Is Al Gore related to the Gore of GorTex fame? That might explain some things.

Leo L.
02-27-2018, 06:54
GoreTex and similar stuff works only, if there is a reasonable temperatuue drop between outside and inside (in addition to what HooKooDooKu said above). So in hot humid environment the whole GoreTex idea will not work at all.
The boots will still be boots you can walk with, its just off from the advertised quality. Maybe most hikers dont even notice, beacuse having damp or wet feet is an all too common nuisance and there are bigger issues you have to care about on a daily Basis.

My personal reasons I stay away from GoreTex are,
- They are expensive
- The GoreTex features will hold for quite limited time only
- They tend to develope a terrible stink after some time, much worse that the exact same model without GoreTex would

I'm not doing the extensive LD type of hikes you're doing (unfortunately), but I ended up using leather or leather/canvas boots of various design and weight, and use plastic square socks to keep my feet dry if need arises.

Dogwood
02-27-2018, 09:02
Plastic square socks. You must be from Austria.;) Seriously, explain these socks. I've never heard of them unless you're refering to breat bags coined bag rex by some.

Shrewd
02-27-2018, 09:40
This thread has been a better read than the standard water proof or not type threads, which I appreciate. Well done gents.

Off the bat I’ll say there’s really no such thing as water proof. Merely highly water resistant. That said, I love a good pair of GTX or the like boots for cold weather day hikes and such. If you’re a hunter, absolutely. Maybe going on an overnight or weekend trip, right on.

In the context of a thru on the AT....not so much.
In the beginning one kid I hiked with had the LP Neoshells and I remember being envious, as it was realllllky cold when we started and snowing and some decent rain and mud.

After that first pair of shoes wore out, though, it wasn’t that cold anymore and I saw no real reason to stick with waterproofing. On the AT you’re just not going to stay dry for long, regardless of how you dress.

Last year it rained for 4 weeks straight. Eventually you just deal with it and keep going; I even stopped using my second pair of socks because they’d just wet out in a few minutes anyway - I’d save them for a morning I knew I was going into town for a morale boost.

Someone mentioned the stench issue; that’s a good point in general but on a thru kind of irrelevant because you’ll already smell awful.

It’s hard to describe the attitude towards it if you haven’t done it yourself, but you really do stop caring. I didn’t even avoid mud puddles by the time I was in Vermont. You just come to accept that there’s no avoiding it in the long run so why bother? I also stopped wearing gaiters because I came to the conclusion that it was just another layer of wet, muddy crap I had to put back on in the morning.

(Most nights I typically cleaned off my legs and changed into dry camp socks, I should point out)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Leo L.
02-27-2018, 10:35
Plastic square socks. You must be from Austria.;) Seriously, explain these socks. I've never heard of them unless you're refering to breat bags coined bag rex by some.

Will make a photo series and post it here sometimes.

- Take a reasonable sturdy plastic sheet (what you call thrash compressor bag might work perfectly)
- cut out two squares of 1'x1', place them in front of you on the floor "diagonally"
- place one foot on one of the squares, central, toes pointing onto the front corner of the square
- fold up the front flap over your foot
- fold upt the left and right flap over your foot
- while holding the three folded flaps, gently slip the foot into the shoe (wiggle a bit to slip in without tearing the square)
- help the rear flap to fold up while slipping in
- move and wiggle a bit until you feel comfortable
Lace up the shoe, done!

You may carry multiple square socks in case one tears.
If done right, they will hold up a long time.

Square socks (made of any cloth rightly available) come a long way from the WWII and earlier, when people had sturdy shoes/boots but lacked of knitted socks.
Plastic square socks work the same as bread bags, but look more nice and avoid folds on places you don't like to have them in the long run (read: you'll have a perfectly smooth sole are).
And using square socks makes me feel superior over the myriads of day tourists pouring out from the cablecar over the glacier in our mountains, which all have (ziploc)bags in their shoes.

Dogwood
02-27-2018, 21:50
Leo, they could be called apple tart or samosa socks. :p

JJ505
03-02-2018, 13:41
Didn't really want them but they were the only ones available. (I have hard to fit feet.) But I got Goretex New Balance shoes. Were handy day hiking in the snow. They stayed dry and my feet were dry. I think the problem is more thru hiking/long sections because they do take longer to dry.

rgarling
03-02-2018, 14:23
Will make a photo series and post it here sometimes.
...Square socks (made of any cloth rightly available) come a long way from the WWII and earlier, when people had sturdy shoes/boots but lacked of knitted socks.
...

Leo -- thanks for sharing this great idea. With the right material, it could work as a sock liner, insulator, water-resistant layer. I'll definitely be trying this.

Dogwood
03-02-2018, 15:48
...Just like any other waterproof, and supposedly breatheable, clothing,
Nothing is ever breatheable enough to keep up with exertion in warm weather...

I'm going to keep saying this. Ventilation is far more important to thermoregulation than breathability. People have to stop putting all the thermoregulation complaints on the gear and breathability and start looking at themselves, their attention to ventilation and overall(inattention?) to thermoregulation.


And, if you want to bitch about marketing of breathability do a side by side everything else being equal comparison wearing non permeable non breathable rain pants and rain jacket(as found at HD or Lowes, work rain wear) or while wearing a sauna suit such as wrestlers or fat farms/(spas) use to get wt down with wearing a backpacking/hiking breathable WP rain pants and rain jacket with 10K+ Hydrostatic Head(HH), 10K+ Moisture Vapor Transfer Rate(MVTR). There's a freakin difference despite overused breathability marketing terms!

Berserker
03-05-2018, 13:33
In my personal experience I have found waterproof shoes and boots to just flat out not work for me due to getting wet from the inside out. Unless the temperature is very low (below freezing) I'm gonna be sweating and getting them wet. So it doesn't matter if the weather is nice and it stays dry, those suckers are gonna get wet anyway. Then if it rains the water eventually works it's way into the boots unless I'm wearing rain pants, which I can't do unless it's pretty cold.

Trail runners with good mesh are the way to go in my opinion. If they get wet, they'll dry out quick. If in multiple days of rain, your feet will be wet regardless of your footwear, and the trail runners will dry out quickly once it stops raining while the waterproof footwear will take a lot longer.

Another Kevin
03-05-2018, 15:13
What I do:

Winter - a complicated layering system: thin nylon or polyester dress socks, doubled bread or newspaper bags, wool socks, Sorel pac boots, gaiters.

The other three seasons - no waterproof shoes - trail runners. In wet conditions, wash the feet several times a day and treat with Gurney Goo or something similar to have water-repellent on the skin.

When there's liquid water about, it's going to get into your boots, down your ankles if nowhere else. Waterproof boots leave it no way to get out again.

I'm prone to skin maceration, and I've found that putting a water repellent on the skin and then wearing quick-drying stuff on my feet is the least likely combination to turn my toes to hamburger.

Malto
03-05-2018, 21:55
Will make a photo series and post it here sometimes.

- Take a reasonable sturdy plastic sheet (what you call thrash compressor bag might work perfectly)
- cut out two squares of 1'x1', place them in front of you on the floor "diagonally"
- place one foot on one of the squares, central, toes pointing onto the front corner of the square
- fold up the front flap over your foot
- fold upt the left and right flap over your foot
- while holding the three folded flaps, gently slip the foot into the shoe (wiggle a bit to slip in without tearing the square)
- help the rear flap to fold up while slipping in
- move and wiggle a bit until you feel comfortable
Lace up the shoe, done!

You may carry multiple square socks in case one tears.
If done right, they will hold up a long time.

Square socks (made of any cloth rightly available) come a long way from the WWII and earlier, when people had sturdy shoes/boots but lacked of knitted socks.
Plastic square socks work the same as bread bags, but look more nice and avoid folds on places you don't like to have them in the long run (read: you'll have a perfectly smooth sole are).
And using square socks makes me feel superior over the myriads of day tourists pouring out from the cablecar over the glacier in our mountains, which all have (ziploc)bags in their shoes.
I made some waterproofish socks out of silnylon. One set is sorta squarish. Far superior to WP shoes in my experience.

Nanatuk
03-05-2018, 22:31
What I do:
wash the feet several times a day and treat with Gurney Goo or something similar to have water-repellent on the skin.


Never heard of Gurney Goo before, thanks for the tip