View Full Version : Facts about fatal animal attacks in the U.S.
GoldenBear
03-10-2018, 11:57
http://www.wemjournal.org/article/S1080-6032(17)30313-7/abstract
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/03/09/these-animals-most-likely-kill-americans-hint-its-not-sharks-snakes/410283002/
Cows, horses, and other farm animals cause the most fatalities.
Hymenoptera (hornets, wasps, and bees) are next.
Dogs are #3.
Snakes come next.
Bears fatalities are so rare that they hardly count for danger.
This is not a joke: be careful around farm animals, just like you would be careful around predators.
And if you see a dog on The Trail, particularly one that is unleashed, remember that the danger of fatalities is greater than if you see a bear.
AllDownhillFromHere
03-10-2018, 12:51
...And if you see a dog on The Trail, particularly one that is unleashed, remember that the danger of fatalities is greater than if you see a bear.
I'm not sure that follows from the data. Since you see dogs in towns and cities far more often than you see bears, and you don't get killed every time you see a dog, I'm not sure that _on a trail_ you're more likely to be killed by a dog than a bear. Whats the ratio of dog encounters to deaths, vs bear encounters to deaths?
This is not a joke: be careful around farm animals, just like you would be careful around predators.
Does the AT still pass through pastures with cows in them?
And the odd bull?
I don't know re: the AT but i worry about this here. Idiots with their dogs. Note that I have a dog, so this is not hate against dogs. And 98% of the dogs are fine. But there is that idiot that has a dog that shouldn't be there, that is off leash and is dog aggressive (or human aggressive). It's a concern.
Offshore
03-10-2018, 13:49
Does the AT still pass through pastures with cows in them?
And the odd bull?
It passes through a pasture adjacent to the Route 94 crossing in NJ between Pochuck Boardwalk and Stairway to Heaven. Very unfriendly bovines...
Slo-go'en
03-10-2018, 13:56
Does the AT still pass through pastures with cows in them?
And the odd bull?
I don't know about bulls, but I walked through a herd of long horn cattle in Grayson highlands and you cross a number of cow pastures in VA.
Offshore
03-10-2018, 13:58
I don't know re: the AT but i worry about this here. Idiots with their dogs. Note that I have a dog, so this is not hate against dogs. And 98% of the dogs are fine. But there is that idiot that has a dog that shouldn't be there, that is off leash and is dog aggressive (or human aggressive). It's a concern.
I assume that any dog I encounter on a trail that is off leash is likely to be an aggressive dog (and for certain the owner is an idiot). I've had "friendly dogs" react negatively to trekking poles and even a headnet, so I really don't want to hear how your dog is not a problem dog. It's never a problem dog , until it becomes a problem dog. If there are leash laws, follow them - you and your dog are not special. If you run your dog off leash and it comes at me, I'll defend myself and if your dog is injured, that's on you.
Seems to me I remember pushing by some herfords in VT.
FrogLevel
03-10-2018, 14:14
There's a few farm crossings in Tennessee and SW VA. I've had to walk around cows many times, often deep in the thick woods.
Sarcasm the elf
03-10-2018, 14:30
http://www.wemjournal.org/article/S1080-6032(17)30313-7/abstract
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/03/09/these-animals-most-likely-kill-americans-hint-its-not-sharks-snakes/410283002/
Cows, horses, and other farm animals cause the most fatalities.
Hymenoptera (hornets, wasps, and bees) are next.
Dogs are #3.
Snakes come next.
Bears fatalities are so rare that they hardly count for danger.
This is not a joke: be careful around farm animals, just like you would be careful around predators.
And if you see a dog on The Trail, particularly one that is unleashed, remember that the danger of fatalities is greater than if you see a bear.
It's unfortunate that the last paragraph was added. It's seems to be derailing an otherwise excellent post and thread.
I'll add that passing through cattle fields on trail probably makes more nervous than any other one type of animal encounter on trail. Ornery cattle are nothing to mess with, especially from the inside of their field.
Feral Bill
03-10-2018, 14:41
So, in conclusion, cattle should be killed and eaten.
Christoph
03-10-2018, 14:56
I suddenly have a hankering for a steak... or a burger.
But yes, the AT does go through multiple pastures where cows are present and curious.
So, in conclusion, cattle should be killed and eaten.
cooking in between is somewhat popular
100 million cattle in us
90 million dogs
70 million pigs
300 thousand bears, only 1500 of which are grizzly in lower 48
fatalities appear to be related to population and interaction more than actual threat
what would be a very embarrassing way to go?? a sheep related fatality (of which their are only 5 million)
Sarcasm the elf
03-10-2018, 15:16
So, in conclusion, cattle should be killed and eaten.
Statistically it would be safer to kill ahd eat the bears. :D
FrogLevel
03-10-2018, 15:18
The fear comes from being able to defend yourself and get away. I can climb a tree or walk away to avoid cows, I think I could physically take on a dog, I can easily spot snakes. If a bear wants to kill me, it will every time.
AllDownhillFromHere
03-10-2018, 15:25
The fear comes from being able to defend yourself and get away. I can climb a tree or walk away to avoid cows, I think I could physically take on a dog, I can easily spot snakes. If a bear wants to kill me, it will every time.
Curious, do you have a dog? I've had 2 in the 50lb range, and they were both crazy strong when motivated.
4eyedbuzzard
03-10-2018, 16:05
IMO, for hikers, the most dangerous critters in the eastern mountains aren't the big animals like cows or moose or even dogs (which are more likely to injure a hiker than livestock or wild animals). The most dangerous critters are ticks (Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, Babesiosis, Ehrlichiosis, Lyme, etc.) and mosquitoes (West Nile Virus). Yes, they are both technically animals. No, they won't kill you right on the trail, but they can infect a person with numerous diseases, many of which can be fatal long term if treatment isn't administered early enough, especially if a person has an underlying medical condition or compromised immune system. They kill more people in the US each year than all the others combined.
Why do humans always take themselves out of such statistics? Humans are animals.
Yeah, they are.
Top 20 Most Dangerous Animals in Austrailia
Wicked Tuna
Top 25 Most Dangerous Animals in the World
Top 10 Most Dangerous Animals in the World
Most Dangerous Animals in N. America
Not one mention of the dangerous animals humans are!
OMG, talk about humanities hubris.
At least this article finally mentions who kills the most humans - mosquitos. Second is humans who account for the second most fatalities to humans 437,000 global homicides in 2012. And, that doesn't include the death and destruction to humans from human wars. The greatest threat of fatality to humans is from other humans.
Oh how ignorant and prideful of animals humans are pointing fingers at dangers from other animals.
https://www.sciencealert.com/what-are-the-worlds-15-deadliest-animals
gpburdelljr
03-10-2018, 16:20
Statistically it would be safer to kill ahd eat the bears. :D
I recently read where a suspected lion poacher in Africa was killed and eaten by lions. Karma.
Grind on those stats for awhile.
Largely, on any adventure of utmost chief concern for me is not farm animals, dogs, insects, bears, snakes, ticks, giardia, parasites, pison ivy, sun flares, rogue waves, or sharks it's where are the humans, what are human animals up to.
4eyedbuzzard
03-10-2018, 16:33
Why do humans always take themselves out of such statistics? Humans are animals.
Yeah, they are.
Top 20 Most Dangerous Animals in Austrailia
Wicked Tuna
Top 25 Most Dangerous Animals in the World
Top 10 Most Dangerous Animals in the World
Most Dangerous Animals in N. America
Not one mention of the dangerous animals humans are!
OMG, talk about humanities hubris.
At least this article finally mentions who kills the most humans - mosquitos. Second is humans who account for the second most fatalities to humans 437,000 global homicides in 2012. And, that doesn't include the death and destruction to humans from human wars. The greatest threat of fatality to humans is from other humans.
Oh how ignorant and prideful of animals humans are pointing fingers at dangers from other animals.
https://www.sciencealert.com/what-are-the-worlds-15-deadliest-animalsA valid point that I think most of us already realize. But I think we are more looking at dangers from non-human animals given the context of the thread, even though there have been homicides committed on trails. I am somewhat surprised you didn't bring up how many of us humans kill ourselves without aid of any other humans or animals. Via automobiles, firearms, diet, smoking, drinking, drugs, "hold my beer moments", etc. We can be pretty self-destructive critters.
Didn't think about that.
How about the extent of death of non human animals from the human animal? 1 million, that's 1,000,000, animas die each day in the U.S. alone being struck by human animal drivers behind the wheel.
It makes human animals very uncomfortable considering they too are animals or considering human animal behavior.
The toll is staggering.
FrogLevel
03-10-2018, 16:55
Curious, do you have a dog? I've had 2 in the 50lb range, and they were both crazy strong when motivated.
I've got labs. I think if I had to kill one I think I could, or at least put up one hell of a fight.
Of more concern than dogs or farm animals or snakes or bears are the gawking human animal Tourons behind the wheel crossing Hwy 441 at Newfound Gap or the self absorbed biz guy after 3 martinis coming from NYC illegally inattentively speeding to get home while crossing NY Hwy 55 on the Taconic Pkwy.
4eyedbuzzard
03-10-2018, 17:03
Curious, do you have a dog? I've had 2 in the 50lb range, and they were both crazy strong when motivated.
I've got labs. I think if I had to kill one I think I could, or at least put up one hell of a fight.
It's a tough call. I've got a large boned 80 lb chocolate lab. He's incredibly friendly and still a puppy at heart at 10 years old. I wrestle with him and he'll put his mouth over my hand and arm but never break the skin. The proverbial soft mouth and good nature of a retriever. But unless you command him to drop a toy, you will NOT be able to take it from him by force. He's simply too strong. If he were to turn mean, I don't know... He could probably kill most humans if so inclined.
I've come to terms with the greatest peril to my life on the AT. It's myself...my own ignorance and inattentiveness.
No longer will I entertain pointing fingers away from myself blaming someone or something else.
Greatest dangers as a hiker are from slips, trips, and falls. That peril is virtually if not always on myself. I can be my own worst enemy. I do what I can not to be. How about you?
I've encountered cows on multiple trails and it is always kind of interesting going through a herd. Most cows are indifferent and/or seem bored but occasionally one or two takes and interesting in hikers. I've also had stubborn cows refuse to yield the trail necessitating detours. Particularly interesting was an incident on the Colorado Trail where I had to obtain water from a pond used by cows - kind of gross and the cows didn't seem to take kindly to this two legged intruder.
Curious, do you have a dog? I've had 2 in the 50lb range, and they were both crazy strong when motivated.
Yup. 30 ft facing a ripped male 70 lb pit bull last yr. It broke loose from the owner. Covered the distance amazingly faster than I anticipated it could. Leapt like a tiger on me from 8 ft easily knocking me at 200 lbs onto my back. Was standing on my chest. Had no time or capability to get to my knife. Didnt have a firearm on me. Even if I did I don't think I would have gotten a shot off as the situatioN evolved unexpectedly. Took both hands to keep it from clamping dowN on my throat which it instinctively went for less than a ft away from my face. Was concerned about it clamping down on my face or oNE of my wrists. Fortunate the owner was able to grab the leash and pull it off me. My rigjt knee"s cartilage and tendons are now damaged.
Of course it's owner said it was a friendly dog.
Day after two Atlanta 1 st graders were attacked in a different incident involving two pit bulls. The vicious attacks claimed the life of one little boy and seriously injured a little girl...while their school mates watched and tried to help. Horrific experience.
If I can't defend against an agressive pitbull by staying on my feet what chance did those two children have?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ajc.com/news/boy-killed-girl-injured-pit-bull-attack-way-school/Uh9RUbkz5f7NIuNHGqqjAJ/amp.html
TexasBob
03-10-2018, 18:07
I've got labs. I think if I had to kill one I think I could, or at least put up one hell of a fight.
You could put up a fight but if a big dog really wants to eat your lunch (so to speak) my money is on the dog every time. You might get a few licks in but once the dog gets a hold on you and starts shaking its head, ripping you up in the process, getting away will be the only thing on your mind.
AllDownhillFromHere
03-10-2018, 18:17
You could put up a fight but if a big dog really wants to eat your lunch (so to speak) my money is on the dog every time. You might get a few licks in but once the dog gets a hold on you and starts shaking its head, ripping you up in the process, getting away will be the only thing on your mind.
Before this becomes a flamefest against GSDs or so-called 'pitbull' dogs, my point is that you're probably not going to win against a dog either (vs bear) - BUT, the # of times you meet a dog vs. the number of times it attacks you is probably less than the # of times you meet a bear and it attacks you. Which was the whole poorly-worded part of the OP.
I've encountered cows on multiple trails and it is always kind of interesting going through a herd. Most cows are indifferent and/or seem bored but occasionally one or two takes and interesting in hikers. I've also had stubborn cows refuse to yield the trail necessitating detours. Particularly interesting was an incident on the Colorado Trail where I had to obtain water from a pond used by cows - kind of gross and the cows didn't seem to take kindly to this two legged intruder.
Get knocked or fall to the ground from a startled cow and have it then escalate to startled other cows and one can get trampled.
Have a horse or mule kick you or trample on you and it can easily be fatal.
Don't cede the right of way to stock even goats on narrow steep sided trail and risk being rammed or butted possibly off trail.
Screw with working farm or herding dogs and you can be perceived as a threat.
Ever see tamed farm turkey or geese become agrressive especially to children resulting on injurious falls and hen peck? Ive worked on farms. I have.
All farm animals
Feral Bill
03-10-2018, 18:26
cooking in between is somewhat popular Good idea!
Strongly disagree. I've seen more unleashed dogs on hikes than bears. I've never been attacked by a bear anytime.I've been attacked by agressive dogs multiple times on hikes almost always while on a road portion of a hike where the dog was aggressive off the property unleashed.
TexasBob
03-10-2018, 19:07
Before this becomes a flamefest against GSDs or so-called 'pitbull' dogs, my point is that you're probably not going to win against a dog either (vs bear) - BUT, the # of times you meet a dog vs. the number of times it attacks you is probably less than the # of times you meet a bear and it attacks you. Which was the whole poorly-worded part of the OP.
I am not against dogs whatever their breed. I think the OP would have been right saying "You are more likely to be injured by a dog rather than being injured by a bear". Here are some interesting statistics about dog bites in general especially involving children. http://www.safetyarounddogs.org/statistics.html
AllDownhillFromHere
03-10-2018, 19:16
I am not against dogs whatever their breed. I think the OP would have been right saying "You are more likely to be injured by a dog rather than being injured by a bear". Here are some interesting statistics about dog bites in general especially involving children. http://www.safetyarounddogs.org/statistics.html
Totally agree.
Greatest dangers as a hiker are from slips, trips, and falls. That peril is virtually if not always on myself. I can be my own worst enemy. I do what I can not to be. How about you?
That sort of begs the question: How many thru hikers have died from slips, trips and falls on the AT?
The number of thru hikers killed by a complete stranger while in the middle of their AT thru hikes I is of course, widely known. Falls, not so much — but I would be hard pressed to come up with the name of one, much less five or six.
I've never been attacked by a bear anytime.I've been attacked by agressive dogs multiple times ...
Yeah, you probably won't be attacked by an aggressive bear more than once...
:)
Sarcasm the elf
03-10-2018, 19:59
That sort of begs the question: How many thru hikers have died from slips, trips and falls on the AT?
The number of thru hikers killed by a complete stranger while in the middle of their AT thru hikes I is of course, widely known. Falls, not so much — but I would be hard pressed to come up with the name of one, much less five or six.
Myocardial Infarction is by far the biggest killer on the trail.
Sarcasm the elf
03-10-2018, 19:59
Duplicate...
4eyedbuzzard
03-10-2018, 20:06
Myocardial Infarction is by far the biggest killer on the trail.Very likely true according to this: https://www.citizen-times.com/story/sports/outdoors/2015/03/24/hiking-deaths-rare-heavily-traveled-appalachian-trail/70394614/
Bob Proudman, director of conservation operations with the [Appalachian Trail]conservancy, said that most people attempting a thru-hike are prepared, but even seasoned hikers, such as Parish, can run into adversity."This is a very rare event. It's more likely that you'll be hit by lightning than being hit by a tree. But that doesn't mean it's not something we don't have to pay attention to," Proudman said.He said there are an average of two-three deaths a year on the Appalachian Trail."The most common is elderly people having trouble, such as heart attacks or breathing trouble. The next would be hypothermia in the north country, in the White Mountains (in New Hampshire). Accidents from falls are probably in the mix, but are not often fatal. We often have youngsters or people drinking and messing around on the cliffs near the James River," he said.
Of more concern than dogs or farm animals or snakes or bears are the gawking human animal Tourons behind the wheel crossing Hwy 441 at Newfound Gap or the self absorbed biz guy after 3 martinis coming from NYC illegally inattentively speeding to get home while crossing NY Hwy 55 on the Taconic Pkwy.
That last sentence is a bit confusing? You wouldn't intersect if you were driving and that driver was out there on 55 and the Taconic, in either order (since the two roads are separated and don't physically cross). You also no longer need to physically cross the Taconic on the AT (the trail goes under it using a local road, though that wasn't always the case). So the only place it would be an issue was you hiking and the driver coming down Route 55 (since that is still a walk across the road at grade crossing for the AT).
Sarcasm the elf
03-10-2018, 20:29
That last sentence is a bit confusing? You wouldn't intersect if you were driving and that driver was out there on 55 and the Taconic, in either order (since the two roads are separated and don't physically cross). You also no longer need to physically cross the Taconic on the AT (the trail goes under it using a local road, though that wasn't always the case). So the only place it would be an issue was you hiking and the driver coming down Route 55 (since that is still a walk across the road at grade crossing for the AT).
I had just assumed he meant the Palisades Pkwy and got the road names mixed up...
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=47697&catid=member&imageuser=26465
Thx BG for mentioning it and STE for correcting me. Yes STE that was what I meant. That's a dangerous high speed crossing.
I am not against dogs whatever their breed. I think the OP would have been right saying "You are more likely to be injured by a dog rather than being injured by a bear". Here are some interesting statistics about dog bites in general especially involving children. http://www.safetyarounddogs.org/statistics.html
Totally agree.
Yes....I like the way you said it best Texas Bob. No disrespect intended to ADFH.:D
I don't know re: the AT but i worry about this here. Idiots with their dogs. Note that I have a dog, so this is not hate against dogs. And 98% of the dogs are fine. But there is that idiot that has a dog that shouldn't be there, that is off leash and is dog aggressive (or human aggressive). It's a concern.
Yep!
I’m way more afraid of a dog off leash than I am of a bear. And I’ve had two encounters with black bears while hunting. Bears are curious, but usually skittish, and will take off once seeing someone. Some people dogs are unpredictable. For the record, I love dogs.
There may have been a thread on this before, but in July 2017, I headed southbound from Hot Springs. Three dogs, with collars but unaccompanied, ran past me at the top of the first climb. I went to get water at the creek near Deer Park Shelter, but the dogs were there. They all jumped into the stream to give themselves baths and relieved themselves on trees less than three feet away from the creek. I did not get sick from drinking the (filtered) water, but the experience was one of the most negative animal encounters I have had on the AT.
MtDoraDave
03-11-2018, 08:43
The title says "facts" but the last sentence sounds like statistics. [Statistically] you are more likely to this than that.
Facts don't lie, but statistics can be manipulated and misinterpreted.
Puddlefish
03-11-2018, 09:17
The title says "facts" but the last sentence sounds like statistics. [Statistically] you are more likely to this than that.
Facts don't lie, but statistics can be manipulated and misinterpreted.
Few people understand statistics. Statistics are great, for what they are, if you understand where and how the data was collected, and have the knowledge to interpret it responsibly.
Facts are also fine, but facts can also be irrelevant.
In both cases, people infer, or draw conclusions that don't really support the facts. "Bad news, the fog is getting thicker. ... and Leon's getting larger." It's a joke, but it's fairly typical of what a lot of people do.
So, the statistics aren't fake. The study referenced was excellent, the conclusion was reasonable. The USA Today article was stupid. They took a perfectly good study, and flat out changed the conclusion to make it scarier to the general public, to sell advertising.
Facts are subject to no longer being factual which questions the notion of what is a fact.
Wisdom has been replaced by knowledge. Knowledge has been replaced by information. Left hemisphere brain thinking is rampant.
2017. Stream crossings in the Sierra Nevada.
Wayne
SoaknWet
03-11-2018, 16:17
Blue light sales.at.Wally world.
Blue light sales.at.Wally world.
That one is terrifying!!! :D
FrogLevel
03-11-2018, 16:25
Have there been any lightning deaths on the AT?
There was a small group struck on Jane Bald last May. Nobody was killed but one guy had some burns. One in the group had a cooler or something similar that exploded into a thousand pieces.
People personify their pets. But ultimately a dog is an animal with animal instincts. The fact that a dog is well behaved in its home environment means nothing on trail. I too have had negative experiences with unleashed dogs, nothing terrible, but it's highly inconsiderate of people to let their dogs roam free even if they prove friendly we have no way of knowing the intent of a dog running toward us. So it's dangerous for dogs too. People will defend themselves if they feel at risk.
SpongeBob
03-11-2018, 18:46
One way to sort risk statistics is by exposure. People are much more exposed to domestic animals, so the raw injury rate from domestic animals is higher, but the injury rate per human-animal encounter might be lower for dogs than bears (just guessing on that, don’t know the stats). Thankfully, the rate of injury from bear-human encounters is very low - certainly lower than the risk of driving to the trailhead. Anecdotally, I’ve been kicked by a cow and bit by a dog, but never et by a bear.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
SWODaddy
03-11-2018, 21:00
http://www.wemjournal.org/article/S1080-6032(17)30313-7/abstract
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/03/09/these-animals-most-likely-kill-americans-hint-its-not-sharks-snakes/410283002/
Cows, horses, and other farm animals cause the most fatalities.
Hymenoptera (hornets, wasps, and bees) are next.
Dogs are #3.
Snakes come next.
Bears fatalities are so rare that they hardly count for danger.
This is not a joke: be careful around farm animals, just like you would be careful around predators.
And if you see a dog on The Trail, particularly one that is unleashed, remember that the danger of fatalities is greater than if you see a bear.
I'm not particularly worried about being mauled by a bear on the trail, but this is a terrible application of statistics.
BuckeyeBill
03-11-2018, 22:25
Blue light sales.at.Wally world.
That one is terrifying!!! :D
Nope Friday after Thanksgiving sales at Wally world can be fatal. One dead, two injured at San Antonio Walmart (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2016/11/28/a-good-samaritan-helped-a-woman-who-was-being-beaten-in-a-parking-lot-now-hes-dead/?utm_term=.48f8c7fe9757). Reno NV, One dead after shooting over a parking spot at a Walmart (http://abc13.com/news/shopper-opens-fire-killing-one-over-parking-spot/1625048/). Long Island Walmart worker trampled to death By mob of frenzied shoppers (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/worker-dies-li-wal-mart-stampede-article-1.334059).
BuckeyeBill
03-11-2018, 22:26
would should have been could. say that ten times real fast.:D
Alligator
03-11-2018, 22:46
Any place you are crossing stiles is a situation where you might encounter farm animals. In farm country, animals get loose too. Saw a goat on the trail. I'm no tracker but fresh cow pies usually indicate nearby cattle. It's fresh when your boot just slides right into it and the pie doesn't hold its shape.
Cows in SW VA. Came back from getting water one morning and a cow was licking my tent. It was a jailbreak cow. I could tell by the white and black spots and the downed fence rails. Those escaped convict cows are particularly unpredictable, that cow was looking to steal my tent!
Longhorn cattle somewhere near MD/PA.
Cow almost killed me in NY, North of the train stop I think. I crossed into a cow field. Shined my head lamp to the left. Two glowing red eyes in the dark. Damn near had a heart attack. Would that have been one for the cow or one one for myocardial infarction? Deer made a similar attempt on my life in VA, spooky blue eyes floating in space bodies hidden behind rocks on a dark night. They don't call them wildlife for nothing!
No special time. Anytime. Wally World.
During ZPacks going out of biz sale amidst a UL mob all vying for the last Duplex.
Shea Stadium for a Jets Monday night game
Breaking down on 115 St in Harlem on a summer Fri night in my sister's shiny new Beemer.
http://www.wemjournal.org/article/S1080-6032(17)30313-7/abstract
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/03/09/these-animals-most-likely-kill-americans-hint-its-not-sharks-snakes/410283002/
Cows, horses, and other farm animals cause the most fatalities.
Hymenoptera (hornets, wasps, and bees) are next.
Dogs are #3.
Snakes come next.
Bears fatalities are so rare that they hardly count for danger.
This is not a joke: be careful around farm animals, just like you would be careful around predators.
And if you see a dog on The Trail, particularly one that is unleashed, remember that the danger of fatalities is greater than if you see a bear.
Authorities are searching for an armed rogue recently fired disgruntled Chik-Fil-A cow responsible for multiple hijackings of Vegan hiker's food bags at hoof point and threats of cow farts. Authorities say the cowprit may be attempting to evade capture by blending in with other cows. Extreme caution is advised.
I take it a kill/ eat on sight order has been issued for this bovine outlaw
I take it a kill/ eat on sight order has been issued for this bovine outlaw
If we were doing a hike in Vietnam that would also apply to Fido. Have to keep those canine attacks on humanity in check. Puppy in peanut sauce anyone? Taste like chicken and PB.
Feral Bill
03-12-2018, 01:56
Let's not forget the 200 or so people killed in deer collisions annually.
Facts don't lie, but statistics can be manipulated and misinterpreted.
True.
I am trying to wrap my head around the fact that livestock murder about 8 times as many farmers a year, as do criminals kill police officers a year.
(http://www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/reports/fatality-reports/2017/2017-End-of-Year-Officer-Fatalities-Report_FINAL.pdf ) .
I have know farming was the more dangerous profession for some time, but I had no idea.
Anyone know how many thru hikers have died of heart attacks on the AT? I know of an older thru hiker in the Whites some years ago, but does the number really top five or 6?
Understood that heart attacks my be the biggest killer on the Trail, but is it a fact that they are the leading cause of death among thru hikers on the AT?
Let's not forget the 200 or so people killed in deer collisions annually.
dont know if it was/is true, but a long time ago i read somewhere seemingly reputable that deer are the wild animal responsible for the most human fatalities in the US
dont know if it was/is true, but a long time ago i read somewhere seemingly reputable that deer are the wild animal responsible for the most human fatalities in the US
Here we go again. This stat has to be understood in regard to humans being responsible for their own deaths involving deer. As can be imagined this stat is mostly related to vehicle accidents including motorcycles. Deer aren't usually responsible for killing people. It's the ignorance and inattentiveness of humans in vehicles behind the wheel most responsible for those accidents with deer. Often it invloves swerving into something like a tree or oncoming traffic to avoid deer impacting the vehicle. It can involve ignoring posted deer warning road signs, the known prevalence of deer in the area, seat belt laws, and ignorance of what hrs deer are most active and likely to be hit - dusk and dawn in low light - and during the fall deer mating season.
These stats have to be understood in the context of humans being responsible for destroying deer natural habitat and much of their natural predators that would cull the deer population.
We humans very much take ourselves out of the responsibility equation. We don't like examining our behavior.
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-http://www.akc.org/contententertainment//articles/perfect-hiking-partners/-with-deer-this-fall/
Feral Bill
03-12-2018, 12:50
dont know if it was/is true, but a long time ago i read somewhere seemingly reputable that deer are the wild animal responsible for the most human fatalities in the US When I was teaching a student did a research paper on this, well cited. Numbers vary year to year, of course. Insects may kill more from allergic reactions.
Deer aren't usually responsible for killing people. It's the ignorance and inattentiveness of humans in vehicles behind the wheel most responsible for those accidents with deer.
This may be true in most areas, however in Western NY where I grew up (near Mendon Ponds Park to be more specific) the deer would get together and send out a few from the herd to attack cars kamikaze style on a regular basis.
Even at age 16 most drivers knew to hit them head on, rather than swerving off a road — in part because hitting a deer was not a surchargeable accident and, even more importantly, Mom and Dad couldn’t be too pissed because they both had hit one or two fairly recently themselves.
in more recent years, Deer have taken to employing biological attack with the help of ticks, but make no mistake of it, a deer in NY is nothing more than a wolf in sheep,s clothing.
To the he extent my advise is welcome, I would recommend thinking of a roadside dear like a cockroach—- if you see one there is a 100% chance more at nearby — so hit the breaks not for the one you see, but rather the one you don’t.
Jim Adams
03-12-2018, 13:14
As far as injury caused by a traumatic attack, dogs are the worst when on the A.T. Thru hiked twice. Never heard of a bear attack. Only heard of 1 snake bite. Never heard of an attack by cattle. Never heard of any attacks by wild animals. Have seen 7 dog bites.
Here we go again. This stat has to be understood in regard to humans being responsible for their own deaths involving deer. As can be imagined this stat is mostly related to vehicle accidents including motorcycles. Deer aren't usually responsible for killing people. It's the ignorance and inattentiveness of humans in vehicles behind the wheel most responsible for those accidents with deer. Often it invloves swerving into something like a tree or oncoming traffic to avoid deer impacting the vehicle. It can involve ignoring posted deer warning road signs, the known prevalence of deer in the area, seat belt laws, and ignorance of what hrs deer are most active and likely to be hit - dusk and dawn in low light - and during the fall deer mating season.
These stats have to be understood in the context of humans being responsible for destroying deer natural habitat and much of their natural predators that would cull the deer population.
We humans very much take ourselves out of the responsibility equation. We don't like examining our behavior.
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-http://www.akc.org/contententertainment//articles/perfect-hiking-partners/-with-deer-this-fall/
humans can be said to have some responsibility in all fatal interactions with wildlife, if you want to try and find it. can they not?
now a fair point is that it has no bearing on what animal is more dangerous to a hiker. though that said i have heard more than one story of people being fatally injured by deer while not in automobiles.
plus there are no shortage of people who think moose are incredibly dangerous.
Jim Adams
03-12-2018, 13:27
Bears on the A.T. are not dangerous. Check out black bear deaths in the U.S. over the past 20 years in North America.....25. Fatalities by dog attacks.......327. Beware of dogs on the trail.
illabelle
03-12-2018, 13:43
Strongly disagree. I've seen more unleashed dogs on hikes than bears. I've never been attacked by a bear anytime.I've been attacked by agressive dogs multiple times on hikes almost always while on a road portion of a hike where the dog was aggressive off the property unleashed.
I've seen more unleashed bears on hikes than dogs.
:p
AllDownhillFromHere
03-12-2018, 14:15
Bears on the A.T. are not dangerous. Check out black bear deaths in the U.S. over the past 20 years in North America.....25. Fatalities by dog attacks.......327. Beware of dogs on the trail.
327 dog fatalities in the backcountry?
This may be true in most areas, however in Western NY where I grew up (near Mendon Ponds Park to be more specific) the deer would get together and send out a few from the herd to attack cars kamikaze style on a regular basis...
Seems that way sometimes. :o I hear the deer are targetting drivers who are hunters, those involved in deforestation, and in luxury gas guzzlers.
When the lions, tigers, cheetahs, bears, wolves, elephants, rhinos, sharks, barracuda, orca, Kumodo dragons, serpents, African bees, as well as the rest of the planet start rampaging against a self absorbed destructive humanity Jumanji or Jurassic Park style as humanity has warred against them deer will be the least of concern.
Humans are another animal...with a great capacity for destruction...or creativity and living in a harmonious balance respectful of LIFE. Hear how quiet it got saying that.:D
perdidochas
03-12-2018, 14:41
http://www.wemjournal.org/article/S1080-6032(17)30313-7/abstract
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/03/09/these-animals-most-likely-kill-americans-hint-its-not-sharks-snakes/410283002/
Cows, horses, and other farm animals cause the most fatalities.
Hymenoptera (hornets, wasps, and bees) are next.
Dogs are #3.
Snakes come next.
Bears fatalities are so rare that they hardly count for danger.
This is not a joke: be careful around farm animals, just like you would be careful around predators.
And if you see a dog on The Trail, particularly one that is unleashed, remember that the danger of fatalities is greater than if you see a bear.
Not really. I have seen two wild bears in my life. I've seen numerous (in at least the thousands or tens of thousands) dogs and farm animals and stinging insects in that time.
Any place you are crossing stiles is a situation where you might encounter farm animals. In farm country, animals get loose too. Saw a goat on the trail. I'm no tracker but fresh cow pies usually indicate nearby cattle. It's fresh when your boot just slides right into it and the pie doesn't hold its shape.
Cows in SW VA. Came back from getting water one morning and a cow was licking my tent. It was a jailbreak cow. I could tell by the white and black spots and the downed fence rails. Those escaped convict cows are particularly unpredictable, that cow was looking to steal my tent!
Longhorn cattle somewhere near MD/PA.
Cow almost killed me in NY, North of the train stop I think. I crossed into a cow field. Shined my head lamp to the left. Two glowing red eyes in the dark. Damn near had a heart attack. Would that have been one for the cow or one one for myocardial infarction? Deer made a similar attempt on my life in VA, spooky blue eyes floating in space bodies hidden behind rocks on a dark night. They don't call them wildlife for nothing!
Oh those murderous inquisitive salt lickin' denizens. :D
I've seen more unleashed bears on hikes than dogs.
:p
I've seen more humans that should have been on a leash than bears or dogs that should have been on a leash. :p
Referring to human fatalities involving deer as murder is nonsense.
I thought murder is what humans inflict on other humans like in west Chicago and for the love of money and power?
Myocardial Infarction is by far the biggest killer on the trail.
And, let's not forget the root causes of mycardial infarction. It's most often self imposed through lifestyle choices - diet, cigarette smoking, physical inactivity, obesity, high blood pressure, Diabetes, cholesterol problems...
This biggest killer on trail is our own behavior. This is not embraced as fully as it should.
humans can be said to have some responsibility in all fatal interactions with wildlife..
now a fair point is that it has no bearing on what animal is more dangerous to a hiker...[/QUOTE]
That's equivalent to saying a person's actions have no bearing on experiencing other dangerous humans.
Humans are animals!
Here's your erroneous statement reflecting that fact.
"...now a fair point is that it(human responsibility, human behavior) has no bearing on what animal is more(most) dangerous to a human animal..." :confused:
Even wildlife(wild non human animals) comprehend and obviously adjust their behavior to avoid dangers and minimize dangers from their own kind, environments, and, as well, predators. Yet, what this somehow doesn't apply to human animal behavior? Human behavior has no bearing on danger level or what's dangerous? :confused:
BuckeyeBill
03-12-2018, 15:46
Let's not forget the 200 or so people killed in deer collisions annually.
dont know if it was/is true, but a long time ago i read somewhere seemingly reputable that deer are the wild animal responsible for the most human fatalities in the US
I pretty sure this was posted before, but let us spread the word......... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCrJleggrI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCrJleggrI)
And, let's not forget the root causes of mycardial infarction. It's most often self imposed through lifestyle choices - diet, cigarette smoking, physical inactivity, obesity, high blood pressure, Diabetes, cholesterol problems...
This biggest killer on trail is our own behavior. This is not embraced as fully as it should.
The horse is a thin soup now. Nothing left to kick.
now a fair point is that it has no bearing on what animal is more dangerous to a hiker...
That's equivalent to saying a person's actions have no bearing on experiencing other dangerous humans.
Humans are animals!
Here's your erroneous statement reflecting that fact.
"...now a fair point is that it(human responsibility, human behavior) has no bearing on what animal is more(most) dangerous to a human animal..." :confused:
Even wildlife(wild non human animals) comprehend and obviously adjust their behavior to avoid dangers and minimize dangers from their own kind, environments, and, as well, predators. Yet, what this somehow doesn't apply to human animal behavior? Human behavior has no bearing on danger level or what's dangerous? :confused:[/QUOTE]
i may have misread your point.
you seemed to be saying that the statistic about deer causing fatalities was not what it seemed on the surface because you have to take into account the human behavior that lead to the fatality.
maybe that wasnt your point.
if it was, then my point is you can play that game with all animal related human fatalities. you can look at things the human did in every instance and make the argument that the human behavior was the cause, not the animal.
the people trail running in known grizzly habitat not that long ago spring to mind, for instance.
And, let's not forget the root causes of mycardial infarction. It's most often self imposed through lifestyle choices - diet, cigarette smoking, physical inactivity, obesity, high blood pressure, Diabetes, cholesterol problems...
This biggest killer on trail is our own behavior. This is not embraced as fully as it should.
Number of AT thru hikers struck down by heart attacks — while on a thru hike — is exceeding small. In the age of the Internet, those things tend to be noticed.
Number of thru hikers (or any ATHiker) killed by bears on the AT is zero.
By lightening. Zero thru hikers
By poorly prepared Fugu. Zero thu hikers
By hypothermia on a thru hike? Zero thru hikers
By dogs? Zero — but holly hell there have been a lot of hikers traumatized by them
By falls? Zero (remember, thru hikers)
By getting hit by a train? One thru hiker
By rabies? Zero thru hikers
By drowning? Three thru hikers.
By snakes? Zero thru hiker hikers.
By a homicidal criminal? 5 or 6 thru hikers
By a widow maker? Zero thru hikers.
By animal from National Zoo? Zero thru hikers (thanks in part to clear warning signs)
By car? Zero thru hikers (remember, just talking the AT, sadly different on other trails)
By alcohol poisoning and or hazing? Zero thru hikers.
By bad mushrooms (of any kind)? Zero thru hikers.
By drug overdose? Unknown.
By gangrene after untreated injury? Zero thru hikers.
By asphyxiation? Zero thu hikers, though one long distance section hiker was strangled to death pay person or perons unknown
By suicide? Zero reports among thru hikers, though I worry I could be wrong about this one
By bee/wasp sting? Zero thru hikers
By defenestration? Zero thru hikers
By boredom in the long green tunnel? Unknown.
orthofingers
03-12-2018, 16:18
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the animals responsible for the most fatalities in the US (even though they are not attacking humans) are deer from animal/vehicle interactions.
Number of AT thru hikers struck down by heart attacks — while on a thru hike — is exceeding small. In the age of the Internet, those things tend to be noticed.
Number of thru hikers (or any ATHiker) killed by bears on the AT is zero.
By lightening. Zero thru hikers
By poorly prepared Fugu. Zero thu hikers
By hypothermia on a thru hike? Zero thru hikers
By dogs? Zero — but holly hell there have been a lot of hikers traumatized by them
By falls? Zero (remember, thru hikers)
By getting hit by a train? One thru hiker
By rabies? Zero thru hikers
By drowning? Three thru hikers.
By snakes? Zero thru hiker hikers.
By a homicidal criminal? 5 or 6 thru hikers
By a widow maker? Zero thru hikers.
By animal from National Zoo? Zero thru hikers (thanks in part to clear warning signs)
By car? Zero thru hikers (remember, just talking the AT, sadly different on other trails)
By alcohol poisoning and or hazing? Zero thru hikers.
By bad mushrooms (of any kind)? Zero thru hikers.
By drug overdose? Unknown.
By gangrene after untreated injury? Zero thru hikers.
By asphyxiation? Zero thu hikers, though one long distance section hiker was strangled to death pay person or perons unknown
By suicide? Zero reports among thru hikers, though I worry I could be wrong about this one
By bee/wasp sting? Zero thru hikers
By defenestration? Zero thru hikers
By boredom in the long green tunnel? Unknown.
Now THAT is an interesting post! And a bit entertaining to boot! What about by Lyme or Gardia? That's another Phobia of the trail.
Appreciate the added effort in having a civilized give and take Tdozi. :) Yes, that was my pt...and, humans not willing to give our responsibility the just priority it rightly deserves. ;)
Another example, similar to yours, is imposing human behavior like having a messy camp with highly attracting odors, not protecting food, not leaving wildlife wild, running from bears or cougars, getting to close to bear cubs, etc in negative bear or cougar encounters.
Rick, what's defenestration? ;)
Rick, what's defenestration? ;)
It’s one of those words you wait years to use in the proper context.
Thanks for reading and that far down :)
Well if you read all my BS hope you put on another pot of Joe. :)
You know someone is going to start correcting your itemized statements. NO, its not going to be me. ;)
Hope you and yours are sporting an Aloha tan. :cool: Gonna glow in all that Mass snow.
You know someone is going to start correcting your itemized statements.
Corrections welcome — but I hope anyone attempting to do so keeps in mind that my list is limited to AT Thru Hikers.
I could be wrong about the fugu.
orthofingers
03-12-2018, 17:07
Sorry, I hadn't read the whole thread before posting about deer causing the most human fatalities. As far as this comment: [QUOTE=Dogwood;2198843] It's the ignorance and inattentiveness of humans in vehicles behind the wheel most responsible for those accidents with deer.
I don't think I was being ignorant or inattentive last fall when a big buck ran across the highway and I hit him. It was still dark and I never saw him and never even applied the brakes. After that experience I believe the end result would have been the same regardless of how intelligent or how attentive the driver had been. The result was one dead buck and a totaled vehicle although I wasn't injured.
Rick, what's defenestration? ;)
falling out a window
Sorry, I hadn't read the whole thread before posting about deer causing the most human fatalities. As far as this comment: [QUOTE=Dogwood;2198843] It's the ignorance and inattentiveness of humans in vehicles behind the wheel most responsible for those accidents with deer.
I don't think I was being ignorant or inattentive last fall when a big buck ran across the highway and I hit him. It was still dark and I never saw him and never even applied the brakes. After that experience I believe the end result would have been the same regardless of how intelligent or how attentive the driver had been. The result was one dead buck and a totaled vehicle although I wasn't injured.
What might a jury decide if it was a child? How about you? Would you have a different sentiment if it was a child you knew and loved? I'm asking not stating.
It’s one of those words you wait years to use in the proper context.
Thanks for reading and that far down :)
Yeah like plethora or the phrase ,"let's synchronize our watches."
hit a deer once, middle of the night, center lane of a 3 lane expressway - cannot say I saw it happen but
couple weeks ago I saw a dramatic one unfold
2 deer crossing a highway and they were moving out - easily 30 mph - (speed limit of 65)
first deer made it, so the drivers eye would be on that blur
second deer impacted the post between windshield and drivers window - it flew upward about 20 feet
vehicle pulled over so not too serious, but 1/10 of a second different could have been fatal to the driver (direct impact to the windshield)
SpongeBob
03-12-2018, 18:55
Having tried a couple motor vehicle cases, it depends. Car going 60 miles an hour travels 88 feet per second. Pretty good time to perceive a threat and react by getting a foot on the brake or swerving is 1.5 seconds. If the threat entered the road less than 132 feet ahead of the car, and speed was legal and appropriate for conditions, no time for the driver to avoid the collision.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
BuckeyeBill
03-12-2018, 21:53
I have hit two dear in my lifetime. First was with a 1988 T-Bird, hit the left front fender and driver's side mirror. It was early dawn and it was in a posted deer crossing area I was familiar with. The deer kept running and didn't seemed to be injured. Second time I was in a POS 1982 Mercury Station Wagon with a real steel front bumper. Only damage to the car was a cracked plastic headlight bezel, but that deer suffered injuries that put it down but failed to kill it. I called the Sheriff's Dept. to come out and put down. This new Deputy showed up and didn't know really what to do, so I said "Shoot it."" Well he shot it, but not in a vital area. I asked if he had any deer slugs for his shotgun in his cruiser and he said he did so i told him to try one. I had to tell him where to shoot and I was surprised he hit it in the right as bad as he was shaking. Poor Kid.
I agree with Dogwood about inattentiveness being a factor. Drivers need to be aware of what is going on all around their vehicle, no matter what road they are on or how fast they are driving. I was taught to allow a 10 second gap between you and the car in front of you and to keep your eyes moving Look in your mirrors, that's why they are there. Look out to the sides in front of you for cars and or animals heading towards you.
hit a deer once, middle of the night, center lane of a 3 lane expressway - cannot say I saw it happen but
couple weeks ago I saw a dramatic one unfold
2 deer crossing a highway and they were moving out - easily 30 mph - (speed limit of 65)
first deer made it, so the drivers eye would be on that blur
second deer impacted the post between windshield and drivers window - it flew upward about 20 feet
vehicle pulled over so not too serious, but 1/10 of a second different could have been fatal to the driver (direct impact to the windshield)
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/how-to-avoid-collisions-with-deer-this-fall/
Tried to post this last time.
What could have happened is the driver being so focused on the lead deer he didn't see and didnt know deer often have friends.
Read that last stat as well. 60% of all human fatalities involveding deer accidents the driver and or passenger weren't wearing their seat belts which could have saved human lives. Is that the deer fault?
MuddyWaters
03-13-2018, 00:57
My daughter had several deer run into side of her car in nov. She saw them on side of rd near her house and slowed down to 25, next thing....they ran into side of her car. $4500 . Replace both doors , driver mirror, trim, small dents in quarter panels.
rocketsocks
03-13-2018, 01:01
My daughter had several deer run into side of her car in nov. She saw them on side of rd near her house and slowed down to 25, next thing....they ran into side of her car. $4500 . Replace both doors , driver mirror, trim, small dents in quarter panels.happenend to me twice...like a magnet.
For all the talk of deer, I recall seeing few on my thru hike.
I posted a poll here:
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/128763-How-many-Deer-did-you-see-on-your-thru-hike
Driving to do a Winter summit of Madison in NH, early one mornin. Driving down Rt 113 towards Fryeburg, car in the other lane shines its lights on a deer in front of it crossing over into my lane in front of me. I hit the brakes to avoid hitting the deer and it, or another one, hit my car. New car, had it about 7 months. Still have the dent in my passenger door and wheel well. Stopped and looked for the dee, but never found it, just lots of deer tracks. A nearby house it turns out, puts out feed for the deer.
Started hiking Valkey Way, later than I wanted, still bummed out about the dent in my new car, just wasnt feeling it and bailed on the hike.
MuddyWaters
03-13-2018, 11:16
For all the talk of deer, I recall seeing few on my thru hike.
Not that many in the mountains compared to flatland.
They actually thrive with people. Cut over areas and young reforestation provide many times the cover and browse that mature woods do. Tis why more deer here than when columbus landed, on a fraction of habitat.
How many of your deer accident accts involved driving in low light with headlights on? Driving in low light in deer areas requires added attention. This is when deer and other wildlife, as well as possibly pets, are most active.
Ever see deer on a dark no moon night hike when you suddenly flash them with your headlamp. Most times they freeze relying on sound, smell, or other senses. They dont usually move until you do.Why? With the way their eyes work they are actually blinded - blinded by the light - "a deer in the headlights." They are also biologically programmed to avoid routine predation making them prone to fleeing son etimes haphazardly. How does that play out when they are near roads at low light periods?
They get blinded by headlights, have them pass, partially regain their sight, think it's time to go, and hit the side of your car or perhaps the car behind you. It's why most deer killed in semi large truck encounters are not struck in the front but sides of the vehicle as deer jump into them.
The deer aren't attacking anyone!
That's all good DW but what does that have to do with my vehicle being damaged? Everything! The onus is on the driver - the human - the supposed higher enlightened animal - to be less ignorant, more aware, and less distracted, more attentive to the driving privledge.
https://www.autoinsurance.org/how-to-avoid-deer-collisions/
What sometimes works for me knowing I'm in a likely deer area or where deer have been known to cross the road is slowing down (OMG, I have to slow down) and if safe to myself and othets, flashing headlights, or flicking hem off and suddenly back on.
https://www.autoinsurance.org/how-to-avoid-deer-collisions/
What sometimes works for me knowing I'm in a likely deer area or where deer have been known to cross the road is slowing down (OMG, I have to slow down) and if safe to myself and othets, flashing headlights, or flicking hem off and suddenly back on.
oh perfect one, if only all could be more like you what a wonderful place the world could be
you may have missed your calling in life to be a preacher - trying to make up for it here
oh perfect one, if only all could be more like you what a wonderful place the world could be
you may have missed your calling in life to be a preacher - trying to make up for it here
rotfl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
oh perfect one, if only all could be more like you what a wonderful place the world could be
you may have missed your calling in life to be a preacher - trying to make up for it here
No George. I say that after hitting deer twice myself, having been in vehicles multiple times in deer accidents, growing up in Pinelands Preserve always around deer, and having a willingness to understand why these occurrences happened and altering my driving habits to decrease the risks of having it occur again.
No one was attacking you. No need to attack me.
AllDownhillFromHere
03-13-2018, 21:50
You guys really need better ignore filters.
speedbump
03-14-2018, 16:54
There will always be dogs on the trail, does not make the owner an idiot. You are right, an aggressive dog should not be on the trial. That said, I have had hikers stomp right up to my dog with their hands out, scaring the crap out of me and the dog, and my dog IS mellow. Both hiker and dog owners should be cautious. If you see a dog, do not stomp up to it, and dog owners, if you see a hiker, lease your dog. And yes, if a dog charges me aggressively, it is getting bear sprayed.
rocketsocks
03-15-2018, 05:34
Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
buttermilk
minced garlic
big baggie
refrigerate over night
slice medallions, pan fry
red wine & cream