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ldsailor
03-12-2018, 12:00
Just curious. Does anyone have an idea what it costs to build a shelter on the AT. And I'm talking about a nice one with a porch and capacity of 10 - 16 hikers like the one in the below image (That's the Whiskey Hollow Shelter construction crew in the picture). I did a search and could not find any posts on the subject.

42215

hikeandbike5
03-12-2018, 12:12
i used to work for a trail club which built shelters on a section of the AT in new england.

50-75k, with a lot of volunteer labor and donated labor. (we had some timberframe builders who would donate their time sometimes).

hikeandbike5
03-12-2018, 12:14
forgot to mention, that was over 10 years ago. so costs are likely higher?

MuddyWaters
03-12-2018, 12:34
Do that include environment impact study?

ldsailor
03-12-2018, 12:42
i used to work for a trail club which built shelters on a section of the AT in new england.

50-75k, with a lot of volunteer labor and donated labor. (we had some timberframe builders who would donate their time sometimes).

I figured it would be high but that's still kind of a shock. I imagine one of the higher costs is getting materials and tools to a remote spot. When I was at the Whiskey Hollow shelter last year, a huge, locked tool box was still on site. I could only see using a helicopter as a means of getting in and out.

Percentage wise, what do you think the breakdown between material, labor and transport to locate everything to the shelter site is? BTW - thanks for the reply.

kestral
03-12-2018, 12:49
Where does this money generally come from?

i would like to contribute as I have enjoyed shelters and the Appalachian trail for my entire life. I pay my federal taxes, am a member of national parks ( have an annual park pass). No state tax in Florida other than increased sales taxes. Can’t cough up entire cost, but would contribute to AT shelters and also bringing forth other eastern trails and their maintainance as AT is currently being loved to death.

Hike on!

peakbagger
03-12-2018, 13:58
The shelters are typically funded by the maintaining clubs who do specific fundraisers. On occasion I expect that someone may leave funds in their will that are restricted to building something and those funds are directed to the capital improvement budget. Most of the recent shelters I am aware of in the whites are prefabbed offsite by paid crews and then flown in via helicopter to be assembled by paid crews. I dont think a lot of volunteers get to actually participate in the actual construction. There is plenty of support work acting as "mules" to bring smaller equipment to the site.

A prior poster mentioned environmental impact study. I expect that there are lot of "soft costs" that the clubs had to spend before they even have budget. The rules are the clubs need to design as fully ADA accessible unless the club can prove that there is no way to do so. It doesn't matter if its in an inaccessible location due to the trail bed, its still needs to be baselined as accessible.

kestral
03-12-2018, 14:21
It sounds funny that they are handicap accessible, but actually I and a few others have difficulty haulin my tired arse and stiff limbs up onto some of those platforms.

TNhiker
03-12-2018, 14:28
I imagine one of the higher costs is getting materials and tools to a remote spot. When I was at the Whiskey Hollow shelter last year, a huge, locked tool box was still on site. I could only see using a helicopter as a means of getting in and out.




when they redid the ones in GSMNP, thats how they got the materials into the site........by helicopter....

johnacraft
03-12-2018, 14:51
It sounds funny that they are handicap accessible

Page 10 of this document (https://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/appalachian-trail-club-leaders/2011/04/14/increasing-opportunities-for-access-on-the-appalachian-trail_a-design-guide.pdf?sfvrsn=1) covers the history.

This document (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/appendix-h---z/appendix-i---accessible-facilities-guidelines-and-drawings.pdf) lays out the design guidelines for accessible shelters and privies.

egilbe
03-12-2018, 15:42
The new Speck Pond Shelter, a lot of the material was flown in by helicopter. The caretaker there, Moose, said it was something like $.75 a second to fly in material.

Dogwood
03-12-2018, 15:52
For comparison sake Tiny Houses of similar footprint but including amenities like enclosed windows and locking doors, small fridges, washer/dyer, 2-3 burner alchy or propane stoves, solar power banks, batteries, sinks, small showers or Japanense style soak tubs, etc have been built for half that.

Sandy of PA
03-12-2018, 18:40
Whiskey Hollow cost extra because the roof sheeting was stolen before they got it up. There is a jeep track right up to it. The guy at Bears Den was full of info. about it as he worked for the club that built it. Costs are donated club by club so pick the section you want to help and donate to that club.

Just Bill
03-12-2018, 20:11
I find that number pretty shocking as well.

That's just pressure treated lumber, not hand hewn timber framing.

Either way... talking out of my ass mainly as helicopters and environmental impact studies are not part of my daily construction :D

Guessing the OP might want to set his sights on donating a privy if that's where you're going, lol.

At those prices... I might be able to afford a fire ring or bear pole one day.

ldsailor
03-13-2018, 11:05
Guessing the OP might want to set his sights on donating a privy if that's where you're going, lol.

At those prices... I might be able to afford a fire ring or bear pole one day.

I was thinking of a provision in my will - that is if I don't outlive my money. You know what would be really neat? To fund an entire structure and have it called the "Slapshot Shelter" or "Slapshot Privy" (my trail name). Yeah, I know. The height of hubris, but everyone wants to leave something to be remembered by. :D

rickb
03-13-2018, 11:15
I find that number pretty shocking as well....... Guessing the OP might want to set his sights on donating a privy if that's where you're going, lol.

Not sure how flush the OP is, but perhaps he could start a movement by building something like this famous effort in the DWG.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-10-26/news/1997299098_1_national-park-service-park-superintendent-outhouse

LIhikers
03-13-2018, 11:24
Occasionally, if the right relationships are in place, helicopter operations can be carried out by local military units as part of their training operations. They have to stay currant in things like mountain operations and long line work if that's part of their mission requirements.

ldsailor
03-13-2018, 11:49
Not sure how flush the OP is, but perhaps he could start a movement by building something like this famous effort in the DWG.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-10-26/news/1997299098_1_national-park-service-park-superintendent-outhouse

That privy cost more than my house.

egilbe
03-13-2018, 11:56
I was thinking of a provision in my will - that is if I don't outlive my money. You know what would be really neat? To fund an entire structure and have it called the "Slapshot Shelter" or "Slapshot Privy" (my trail name). Yeah, I know. The height of hubris, but everyone wants to leave something to be remembered by. :D

The Speck Pond shelter I mentioned was funded by a hiker/outdoors person. There was a sign posted on the building, but I failed to get a good picture of it about his children building it in his memory.

egilbe
03-13-2018, 12:03
https://youtu.be/s5hRTWEerVo

Dogwood
03-13-2018, 12:39
Not sure how flush the OP is, but perhaps he could start a movement by building something like this famous effort in the DWG.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-10-26/news/1997299098_1_national-park-service-park-superintendent-outhouse

Architect's dream outhouse. Bet they fawned over it in Architectural Digest.

Feral Bill
03-13-2018, 13:13
duplicate, sorry

Feral Bill
03-13-2018, 13:15
Not sure how flush the OP is, but perhaps he could start a movement by building something like this famous effort in the DWG.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-10-26/news/1997299098_1_national-park-service-park-superintendent-outhouseThat was 20+ years ago. I doubt they are doing anything similar now.

Lnj
03-13-2018, 15:07
After reading all about it, I want to see a picture of it! All those stupid pop-up ads and no pictures of the Taj Mahal potty??

Dogwood
03-13-2018, 15:40
That was 20+ years ago. I doubt they are doing anything similar now.

Oh, that was during the real estate boom when few realized the steep yearly double digit rises in value wouldn't last forever. Of course, we learned from that - over building doesn't always pan out. That could never happen again. :-?

CalebJ
03-13-2018, 15:42
https://theplumber.com/the-opulent-outhouse/
http://www.poconorecord.com/photogallery/PR/20150802/NEWS/802009998/PH/1http://www.poconorecord.com/galleryimage/PR/20150802/NEWS/802009998/PH/0/1/PH-802009998.jpg&maxW=900&maxH=900&cacheBuster=20150810062118?Q=75&maxW=960&maxH=960 (http://www.poconorecord.com/photogallery/PR/20150802/NEWS/802009998/PH/1)

Dogwood
03-13-2018, 15:50
oooh that a nice lookin place to leave a dump

Dogwood
03-13-2018, 15:54
With all the joking we aren't fully informed. We don't know how the itemized costs fully break down.

Coffee
03-13-2018, 16:09
Most shelters are built by trail organizations using volunteer labor. I can't see how material costs for a typical AT shelter can be anywhere near $50-75K. Maybe if you hire a contractor it would cost that much. I know that contractors are ridiculously expensive based on my recent experience helping a family member deal with a general contractor. The margins they make over material costs is stunning especially if you use a general contractor to manage subcontractors - margins layered upon margins. If I ever want to own a cabin in the woods, I'm going to learn how to build one myself, maybe from a log kit.

wordstew
03-13-2018, 16:11
What about modifying a shipping container to use as a shelter or would it be to big to be flown in

George
03-13-2018, 17:19
What about modifying a shipping container to use as a shelter or would it be to big to be flown in

military cargo helicopters are specifically designed to transport containers, but would need to land with them (large open area)

I could build a decent shelter, humping in material, say 4-6 miles from a road by myself for less than 10.000 material in a year - so labor valued about 100K

egilbe
03-13-2018, 17:40
You guys are forgetting about the graft and corruption from the politicians buddies is included in the price. Kinda like the USFS's road to an outhouse in the middle of the WMNF in NH. There is no way that an outhouse costs more than $30,000

rocketsocks
03-13-2018, 17:58
Shoot, I’ll build ya gilded King’s thrown for twenty five.

rocketsocks
03-13-2018, 18:00
...and thrown in a rainwater bidet, for an additional five.

Lone Wolf
03-13-2018, 18:11
tear down all shelters and use the wood to make tent platforms/pads

Dogwood
03-13-2018, 18:12
What about modifying a shipping container to use as a shelter or would it be to big to be flown in


It wouldn't fit into the wilderness narrative of the AT.


However, it could work if the shelter location provided very nearby improved gravel road access or a drop zone. Many AT shelters are near a forest road or old road access.

FrogLevel
03-13-2018, 18:14
It can't cost $75,000 to build some of the shelters I've seen! 3 cinder block walls, some concrete footings and a wood frame roof with tin and a wooden platform?

Am I missing something?

Dogwood
03-13-2018, 18:15
...and thrown in a rainwater bidet, for an additional five.


:clap:datzOnly if it can also be also used to wash feet, socks, and a bandanna during summer. You know some tight wad hikers are going to wash clothes in it.


And solar panels for charging electronics conveniently. Cut down trees that get in the way.

LittleRock
03-14-2018, 11:12
Last year I spoke with one of the trail maintainers who helped install the bearproof storage containers at the four shelters in between Catawba and Daleville in VA. He said that they got as close as they could using the local back roads, but in the end he and 3 other guys (all volunteers) ended up hauling the 600 lb. lockers 1-2 miles each up to the shelters using hand carts.

ldsailor
03-14-2018, 11:52
I read the article linked in post #26, and there is a picture of the privy's interior. Can it be they actually put a window in the privy looking directly at the commode? And for that it cost over $100K for design?

Nice picture of the outside of the privy by the way. I'll be hiking past DWG in May, and I'll make it a priority to visit and "contribute" to the Taj Mahal of privies.

rocketsocks
03-14-2018, 13:59
:clap:datzOnly if it can also be also used to wash feet, socks, and a bandanna during summer. You know some tight wad hikers are going to wash clothes in it.


And solar panels for charging electronics conveniently. Cut down trees that get in the way.sure, we can do a spin cycle and magic fingers for $895.00

KCNC
03-14-2018, 14:43
Helicopters are ridiculously expensive to operate. The last conversation I had (a while ago) put the operation to maintenance time at a 1:1 ratio.

In general terms you hear figures of $500-$600 per hour tossed around for something like a Bell JetRanger, but they have pretty minimal payloads.

Dogwood
03-14-2018, 20:33
Helicopters are ridiculously expensive to operate. The last conversation I had (a while ago) put the operation to maintenance time at a 1:1 ratio.
In general terms you hear figures of $500-$600 per hour tossed around for something like a Bell JetRanger, but they have pretty minimal payloads.


In 08 on the PCT with many wildfires to get around FS was using tanker planes and copters - mostly helos(with a H20 drop basket) to drop water and fire suppression. One FS helo crew with a helo was having lunch near the PCT. I asked about the costs. At that time more than 10 yrs ago it was upwards of $1000/hr. It's also why logging operations only use helos when absolutely necessary. It's often cheaper to build a road to get the lumber to market.

MuddyWaters
03-14-2018, 22:53
In 08 on the PCT with many wildfires to get around FS was using tanker planes and copters - mostly helos(with a H20 drop basket) to drop water and fire suppression. One FS helo crew with a helo was having lunch near the PCT. I asked about the costs. At that time more than 10 yrs ago it was upwards of $1000/hr. It's also why logging operations only use helos when absolutely necessary. It's often cheaper to build a road to get the lumber to market.

Yep. I recall $925/ hr from time it lifts off a few yrs back.
And you dont want to talk about air ambulance. Closer to $500/ minute or more. My sister in law died from anneurism some yrs ago, 1 hr flight from local hospital to major was something like $200,000.

I had a gf in college whose father got laid off from plant job, he became a helicopter pilot ferrying workers and supplies to oil rigs.

Whiskyjo
03-15-2018, 00:21
I built one back in 2007, Took me ten months to build and hauled everything in by ATVs. I still have the invoices. The shelter that sleeps ten and the privy cost me 6,500 and some odd cents. Copied the plans from one out of the GSMNP. The rock was from the creek in front of it so no cost for the stones. You can see a picture of it in my photos.

George
03-15-2018, 07:04
It can't cost $75,000 to build some of the shelters I've seen! 3 cinder block walls, some concrete footings and a wood frame roof with tin and a wooden platform?

Am I missing something?

one of those I could hump in and build by myself in about 2 months - around 5 thousand material

if I could get tipi humping the material 75lbs per trip we might could do one in 2 weeks

ldsailor
03-15-2018, 11:00
I built one back in 2007, Took me ten months to build and hauled everything in by ATVs. I still have the invoices. The shelter that sleeps ten and the privy cost me 6,500 and some odd cents. Copied the plans from one out of the GSMNP. The rock was from the creek in front of it so no cost for the stones. You can see a picture of it in my photos.

I checked out your gallery. Is that the shelter you built sitting by a stream in a winter setting? Where is it and what is the name of the shelter, please? From what I can see, that is one fine shelter. How many people did you have help you?

Dogwood
03-15-2018, 12:30
one of those I could hump in and build by myself in about 2 months - around 5 thousand material

if I could get tipi humping the material 75lbs per trip we might could do one in 2 weeks

LOL might get some avocados and watermelon out of it too

JJ505
03-15-2018, 15:58
I built one back in 2007, Took me ten months to build and hauled everything in by ATVs. I still have the invoices. The shelter that sleeps ten and the privy cost me 6,500 and some odd cents. Copied the plans from one out of the GSMNP. The rock was from the creek in front of it so no cost for the stones. You can see a picture of it in my photos.

Wow, cool little structure! I would guess the cost of some of the old CCC buildings would be quite high if built today with all that stone work. But didn't think that at least the rock would be right there.

Whiskyjo
03-15-2018, 16:35
It's on private property next to the GSMNP near Townsend, Tennessee. I had a group of five guys help haul up the 336 bags of 80 pound quikcrete concrete on ATVs and also help me pour the footers, I also had a rock party one day so another five folks came in to help gather rocks for a day. One day I had a couple of folks help me set the 12" logs for my rafters to sit on and the rest I did. It's called John's Hole Shelter because of the fishing spot it was built near. If you look close there is smoke coming out of the chimney because we were staying up there for a couple of days, Love the snow.

Dogwood
03-15-2018, 17:05
Wow, cool little structure! I would guess the cost of some of the old CCC buildings would be quite high if built today with all that stone work. But didn't think that at least the rock would be right there.

Much of the CCC work done was of higher quality craftsmanship with a keen eye on functionality. Their projects often stood the test of time, made to last longer than today's all too common approach of cheaper cheaper cheaper. Cost is relative to durability, function, and waste.

Look at the buildings and masonry built by the CCC boys. Impressive.

BillyGr
03-15-2018, 20:49
Much of the CCC work done was of higher quality craftsmanship with a keen eye on functionality. Their projects often stood the test of time, made to last longer than today's all too common approach of cheaper cheaper cheaper. Cost is relative to durability, function, and waste.

Look at the buildings and masonry built by the CCC boys. Impressive.

Makes sense - in addition to what you mention (that most things were designed to last longer back at that time), you may also have:

- Less time issues, since they were attempting to help the country by providing work to those unemployed, there was not such an issue of getting labor as today when little $ is available so most times it's volunteers, which are always in short supply.
- Less cost concern since, again, they were attempting to pump money into the economy so not being as focused on saving money on material (though they probably did anyway by using some of these more native materials like the stone).
- Training, since in addition to providing work (and the pay that went with it), they were also providing skills that would be useful to those (mostly young) workers in the future, when "regular" jobs were more available, so taking a bit longer to get it right was OK to be sure they knew how to do the tasks well.

JJ505
03-15-2018, 21:19
Much of the CCC work done was of higher quality craftsmanship with a keen eye on functionality. Their projects often stood the test of time, made to last longer than today's all too common approach of cheaper cheaper cheaper. Cost is relative to durability, function, and waste.

Look at the buildings and masonry built by the CCC boys. Impressive.

Added to BillyG's comments--

Thanks. I am very interested in these. There's one near me but sadly they had to shut it down due to the amount of grafitti, of which it appears to be a target. Also was in Yellowstone and the lodge (I think it might be called "Old Faithful Lodge" is an amazing structure, built without nails.) Didn't stay there but then I gather it would be crazy busy and noisy. The CCC built quite a number of beautiful lodges.

Dogwood
03-16-2018, 00:23
If you ever get to Mt Hood on the PCT to Timberline Lodge, to Zion NP to the Lodge, and down to current day Phantom Ranch in Grand Canyon NP appreciate the work of the CCC. The CCC did work in Shendoah NP too. Many of the overlooks on the BRPKWY were built by the CCC. The stone walls along parts of thw BR PKWY were built by the CCC. CCC planted a lot of trees and built hiking trails, hiking trails we likely have hiked on and sat under trees planted by them unknowingly.

They wanted an opp to work, to feed their families. They weren't seeking a hand out., entitlements. They demonstrated strength of character, loyality, and a work ethic.

A good portion of the CCC were not much more than boys. AND, when their country called in WW II many served and never came home.

Everytime I see their work and think about what they did on every hike I recall this. I recall gov't working for the people to provide opportunity, not people being there simply for the gov't.

soilman
03-16-2018, 07:11
If you ever get to Mt Hood on the PCT to Timberline Lodge, to Zion NP to the Lodge, and down to current day Phantom Ranch in Grand Canyon NP appreciate the work of the CCC. The CCC did work in Shendoah NP too. Many of the overlooks on the BRPKWY were built by the CCC. The stone walls along parts of thw BR PKWY were built by the CCC. CCC planted a lot of trees and built hiking trails, hiking trails we likely have hiked on and sat under trees planted by them unknowingly.

They wanted an opp to work, to feed their families. They weren't seeking a hand out., entitlements. They demonstrated strength of character, loyality, and a work ethic.

A good portion of the CCC were not much more than boys. AND, when their country called in WW II many served and never came home.

Everytime I see their work and think about what they did on every hike I recall this. I recall gov't working for the people to provide opportunity, not people being there simply for the gov't.

The are all kinds of CCC works along the AT. Walasi-Yi Inn (Neel Gap), Blood Mt shelter, Wayah Bald lookout tower, etc. There are lots of not so noticeable works by the CCC along the trail like stone cribbing.

Dogwood
03-16-2018, 10:37
Interesting Soilman.

I'm out the door. Taking your more walking advice.

Dogwood
03-16-2018, 10:38
Interesting Soilman.

I'm out the door. Taking your more walking advice.

Slow Trek
03-17-2018, 00:43
And the CCC did much more mundane work. Most of the sidewalks in this rural Iowa town were built by the CCC. My Grandfather in law was part of a crew that hand dug the sewer lines into a town with around 1000 residents,lines that are still in use today. Ever planted a tree? Now dig your hole 15 feet deep and six miles long.We have life very easy....

George
03-17-2018, 08:55
I built a house in an old neighborhood - was supposed to be charged 10$ per foot of frontage waterline tap on fee - the water dept supervisor said he was not going to charge me as that line was hand dug by the ccc in the 30's

Jeff
03-18-2018, 07:26
Spruce Peak Shelter in Vermont has a plaque indicating it was built by Green Mountain Club volunteers along with nearby prison inmates.

soumodeler
03-19-2018, 21:36
The Nantahala Hiking Club just posted about replacing the Rock Gap shelter. Estimated cost of materials is $18,000. Much more reasonable than other guesses.

https://www.gofundme.com/nhc-appalachian-trail-shelter

I wish they would relocate this one instead of rebuilding it. Way too close to the road. That does make it easy to get the materials in though...

Elaikases
03-19-2018, 21:42
The Nantahala Hiking Club just posted about replacing the Rock Gap shelter. Estimated cost of materials is $18,000. Much more reasonable than other guesses.

https://www.gofundme.com/nhc-appalachian-trail-shelter

I wish they would relocate this one instead of rebuilding it. Way too close to the road. That does make it easy to get the materials in though...

Sure does. That makes a lot of sense though.

LittleRock
03-20-2018, 08:44
Here's a picture of an old CCC retaining wall along the AT in Virginia near the Blue Ridge Parkway. Built in the 1940's, definitely good craftsmanship and held up very well for over 70 years.

42285

Cosmo
03-23-2018, 11:51
Most of the cost of those WM shelters are from the helicopter trips needed to get materials to relatively high elevations and far from road crossings.

In Mass, we harvested the timber frame from a local trail supporters woods, and carried in the materials. We have a small powered wheelbarrow for the bigger framing members, but everything else is human carried. Our cost 15 years ago was under 10k--and about 400 volunteer hours. Shelters are re-roofed about every 20 years and a fresh coat of stain about every 10. It unlikely we will build any more shelters, we feel that we have the right number in place, and are increasingly reluctant to increase the amount of maintained infrastructure we are responsible for.

That said, shelters are a real draw for getting volunteers involved. The ”beaver gene” is strong.

Cosmo

Rex Clifton
03-23-2018, 13:29
https://theplumber.com/the-opulent-outhouse/
http://www.poconorecord.com/photogallery/PR/20150802/NEWS/802009998/PH/1http://www.poconorecord.com/galleryimage/PR/20150802/NEWS/802009998/PH/0/1/PH-802009998.jpg&maxW=900&maxH=900&cacheBuster=20150810062118?Q=75&maxW=960&maxH=960 (http://www.poconorecord.com/photogallery/PR/20150802/NEWS/802009998/PH/1)I think the outhouse she's taking a picture of cost $100k, in NJ, I think?

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

Tundracamper
03-23-2018, 13:49
I seem to recall one of the shelters near the South end was constructed using military helicopters as a training exercise. I recall seeing a plaque. That actually sounds like a good use of resources - the exercise, not the metal plaque.

Hikes in Rain
03-23-2018, 16:43
I remember seeing that one. Plumorchard Gap Shelter, first one north of Dicks Creek Gap. Nice shelter, too.