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ldsailor
03-13-2018, 11:33
I read on a Facebook AT group post yesterday that the ATC has removed the list of shuttle drivers available to hikers on the AT. I did check the ATC web site and found the transportation page still on the web site, but I could not find the direct link to the shuttle driver list. The closest I could come to it was a link to Trek.co where they have an abbreviated list (https://thetrek.co/appalachian-trail/accessing-the-appalachian-trail-shuttles-buses-taxis/).

The rumor has it that many shuttle drivers are not licensed and insured, and because of that the ATC removed the list to mitigate their exposure. It was even said that in one state the state police visited shuttle drivers to remind them of their legal requirements.

Not sure how much of this information is accurate. For all I know the ATC may have moved the shuttle list to a different spot on their web site. Anyone have more information? More importantly, does anyone have the 2018 list downloaded and willing to share it?

Gambit McCrae
03-13-2018, 12:06
Shuttle list in my signiture

Sarcasm the elf
03-13-2018, 12:11
As Gambit says, whiteblaze has an excellent shuttle driver list, which is what I have been using:

https://whiteblaze.net/forum/at-shuttles.php

Please feel free to share the link of FB when people mention that the ATC list has been taken down.

capehiker
03-13-2018, 12:19
Please feel free to share the link of FB when people mention that the ATC list has been taken down.

I saw the same post. Tried finding it but it's lost to the hundred new posts since then.

tdoczi
03-13-2018, 13:16
googling "ATC shuttle list" rather than trying to find the link on the website locates this rather easily-

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-source/default-document-library/at-shuttles.pdf?sfvrsn=0

Coffee
03-13-2018, 13:32
googling "ATC shuttle list" rather than trying to find the link on the website locates this rather easily-http://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-source/default-document-library/at-shuttles.pdf?sfvrsn=0
Thanks. I've downloaded it in case they remove it. Unfortunate we live in such a litigious society.

map man
03-13-2018, 18:55
I can't locate it either (and that tdoczi link is not working for me). I hope it's a temporary glitch and not a permanent state of affairs. I've gotten every shuttler I've used on the AT from that list and have linked to it more times than I can count when people start threads here at WB asking about shuttlers.

tdoczi
03-13-2018, 22:40
I can't locate it either (and that tdoczi link is not working for me). I hope it's a temporary glitch and not a permanent state of affairs. I've gotten every shuttler I've used on the AT from that list and have linked to it more times than I can count when people start threads here at WB asking about shuttlers.

link still works for me.

heres a link to the relevant google search, maybe try that. the pdf is the second hit from the top. do not click on the first, which takes you to the webpage that supposedly does not have the link ay longer.

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=VIuoWod0keb9BqK_v-AP&q=atc+shuttle+list&oq=atc+shu&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.35i39k1j0l4j0i22i30k1l5.1894.2936.0.4513.8. 7.0.0.0.0.85.456.7.7.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.7.454.0..0i131k1.0.5GTzfNyRd-Q

rocketsocks
03-13-2018, 22:44
Do and out/back, double the miles, double the smiles.

Thefurther
03-14-2018, 08:38
I read on a Facebook AT group post yesterday that the ATC has removed the list of shuttle drivers available to hikers on the AT. I did check the ATC web site and found the transportation page still on the web site, but I could not find the direct link to the shuttle driver list. The closest I could come to it was a link to Trek.co where they have an abbreviated list (https://thetrek.co/appalachian-trail/accessing-the-appalachian-trail-shuttles-buses-taxis/).

The rumor has it that many shuttle drivers are not licensed and insured, and because of that the ATC removed the list to mitigate their exposure. It was even said that in one state the state police visited shuttle drivers to remind them of their legal requirements.

Not sure how much of this information is accurate. For all I know the ATC may have moved the shuttle list to a different spot on their web site. Anyone have more information? More importantly, does anyone have the 2018 list downloaded and willing to share it?
this is true . they have removed the list of shuttle drivers . i received a email yesterday about the atc removing the list and the cops checking people is true . i heard that they set up a sting on a shuttle driver and when the shuttle driver arrived they fined them for not having the proper paperwork ( insurance ) . there is not a law to be licensed in ga or nc to deliver people to their destination but you do need insurance . the only time you need a special license is when you are carrying more then 8 people in one vehicle . this probably would not be a problem but people are camping out at the gaps and not following the lnt buy sticking their cards all over the signs and in shelters .the government wants their hands in the cookie jar too . they are not going to let people get away with making money without them getting a piece of the pie . i have jumped through big hoops and small hoops to make my company legal . gotta pay the piper if you want to play ... peace my friends

Coffee
03-14-2018, 08:55
In many cities, taxi drivers have used political influence to stomp on Uber and other car sharing schemes and I suspect this is the same type of thing going on but in rural areas. And hikers will be the ones harmed through either fewer shuttle options, higher prices, or a combination of both.

Tennessee Viking
03-14-2018, 09:23
Looks like there is the Acorn Guide now.

It could be either the ATC didn't want to take liability of not offering to advertise interested shuttle services, or not take liability when there is a bad shuttle experience.

rocketsocks
03-14-2018, 11:12
Shuttles should’ve kept it word of mouth, don’t advertise, or pay the rates and go in business.

ldsailor
03-14-2018, 12:19
Thanks for the links to the WB and ATC shuttle lists.

Rain Man
03-14-2018, 14:52
...the government wants their hands in the cookie jar too....

Sorry, but "the government" has better things to do than harass a handful of shuttle drivers, no matter how much in vogue it has become to harangue "the government." Fact is, such petty actions are often the machinations of some jealous competition.


Unfortunate we live in such a litigious society.

While this is a popular refrain from the insurance industry and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, it's a canard, a myth, a lie in other words. We're not as litigious society these days as was the case back in the days of Revolutionary America. Studies on litigation filed show that more lawsuits were filed, per capita, in the past than today. Same for the size of jury awards.

Coffee
03-14-2018, 15:16
Excuse me, but do not imply that I am a liar. I said that we live in a litigious society, which is my opinion based on my years in business and going through my life. I did not compare the current state of litigation to any past period in time. So save the accusations of lies for someone willing to put up with it.

Thefurther
03-14-2018, 15:17
Sorry, but "the government" has better things to do than harass a handful of shuttle drivers, no matter how much in vogue it has become to harangue "the government." Fact is, such petty actions are often the machinations of some jealous competition.



While this is a popular refrain from the insurance industry and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, it's a canard, a myth, a lie in other words. We're not as litigious society these days as was the case back in the days of Revolutionary America. Studies on litigation filed show that more lawsuits were filed, per capita, in the past than today. Same for the size of jury awards. no they may not care about the shuttle driver but they do care about the taxes that are not being paid .

Thefurther
03-14-2018, 15:19
this is a huge money business happening right now as we speak . the trail is becoming a huge trend for people and is generating huge income for people and towns that surround the trails . you think that this is not political ???

Coffee
03-14-2018, 15:24
this is a huge money business happening right now as we speak . the trail is becoming a huge trend for people and is generating huge income for people and towns that surround the trails . you think that this is not political ???
I've never had the impression that trail towns are making bank from the presence of hikers, many of whom are on serious budgets. I have had the impression that trail towns are full of kind and generous folks offering hikers rides, lodging, and more at reasonable prices or even for free. The fact that informal shuttle networks exist is, however, a big threat to the money making interests like taxi cabs which have vigorously defended their turf in cities and apparently now in rural America as well.

Thefurther
03-14-2018, 15:43
I've never had the impression that trail towns are making bank from the presence of hikers, many of whom are on serious budgets. I have had the impression that trail towns are full of kind and generous folks offering hikers rides, lodging, and more at reasonable prices or even for free. The fact that informal shuttle networks exist is, however, a big threat to the money making interests like taxi cabs which have vigorously defended their turf in cities and apparently now in rural America as well. rei , outdoors world , best western , barefoot hills , mtn crossing , atc , seasons , outdoor 76 , mtn outfitters , outlaw donkey , back country , western mountaineering , oboz , solomen , hole in the wall , budget inn , micheals Italian , big als pizza , ingles , wally world , the baymont , country inn a sweets , paddys taxi , Blairsville taxi , tog , all the shuttle drivers in this area of ga and nc ... this is just a few of the places that are profiting from hikers in my area . all of them have employees that live in these small towns . most of these business were once small and had huge debt but now are profiting and growing . the ones that i named that are in Blairsville or Hiawassee are small businesses that cater to hikers and are owned by small town people . some of their income comes from hikers that come into town to stay the night , resupply , clean up and get some food . usually brought to town by a shuttle driver that is from the area . this is just a little tid bit of trail politics ..... it is only getting bigger ... there is a new breed of hikers out here . they have the money to hike comfortably and are coming from all over the world to hike the a.t. .

gpburdelljr
03-14-2018, 16:12
Sorry, but "the government" has better things to do than harass a handful of shuttle drivers, no matter how much in vogue it has become to harangue "the government." Fact is, such petty actions are often the machinations of some jealous competition.



While this is a popular refrain from the insurance industry and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, it's a canard, a myth, a lie in other words. We're not as litigious society these days as was the case back in the days of Revolutionary America. Studies on litigation filed show that more lawsuits were filed, per capita, in the past than today. Same for the size of jury awards.
Can you cite sources for your “facts”?

greensleep
03-14-2018, 16:29
Can you cite sources for your “facts”?

I believe it's a fact that 85% of facts are made up.

SWODaddy
03-14-2018, 19:40
I read on a Facebook AT group post yesterday that the ATC has removed the list of shuttle drivers available to hikers on the AT. I did check the ATC web site and found the transportation page still on the web site, but I could not find the direct link to the shuttle driver list. The closest I could come to it was a link to Trek.co where they have an abbreviated list (https://thetrek.co/appalachian-trail/accessing-the-appalachian-trail-shuttles-buses-taxis/).

The rumor has it that many shuttle drivers are not licensed and insured, and because of that the ATC removed the list to mitigate their exposure. It was even said that in one state the state police visited shuttle drivers to remind them of their legal requirements.

Not sure how much of this information is accurate. For all I know the ATC may have moved the shuttle list to a different spot on their web site. Anyone have more information? More importantly, does anyone have the 2018 list downloaded and willing to share it?

Gotta love bureaucracy...:rolleyes:

Sarcasm the elf
03-14-2018, 19:55
Can you cite sources for your “facts”?

I can cite that according to The History channel (back when it was reputable) it was a priority of the puritans to setup a litigious society in the new colony. At the time England had a brutal honor based culture where duels and armed fights were routinely used to settle grievances. The puritans found this wholly immoral and proudly setup a system where the rule of law would use to settle disputes. In short they intentionally and proudly made themselves a litigious society because it was a huge leap forward compared to the standards of the day.

scrabbler
03-14-2018, 20:18
rei , outdoors world , best western , barefoot hills , mtn crossing , atc , seasons , outdoor 76 , mtn outfitters , outlaw donkey , back country , western mountaineering , oboz , solomen , hole in the wall , budget inn , micheals Italian , big als pizza , ingles , wally world , the baymont , country inn a sweets , paddys taxi , Blairsville taxi , tog , all the shuttle drivers in this area of ga and nc ... this is just a few of the places that are profiting from hikers in my area . all of them have employees that live in these small towns . most of these business were once small and had huge debt but now are profiting and growing . the ones that i named that are in Blairsville or Hiawassee are small businesses that cater to hikers and are owned by small town people . some of their income comes from hikers that come into town to stay the night , resupply , clean up and get some food . usually brought to town by a shuttle driver that is from the area . this is just a little tid bit of trail politics ..... it is only getting bigger ... there is a new breed of hikers out here . they have the money to hike comfortably and are coming from all over the world to hike the a.t. .

Less than 4000 started the AT last year. IF each of them spent $20 in every town, and it was divided between all those businesses, and DOUBLED next year, you're still only talking a few $1000 per business per town. Not what I would consider Wall Street material.

Coffee
03-14-2018, 20:23
Less than 4000 started the AT last year. IF each of them spent $20 in every town, and it was divided between all those businesses, and DOUBLED next year, you're still only talking a few $1000 per business per town. Not what I would consider Wall Street material.
Trail businesses have always seemed to me more a labor of love or trying to give back to the community rather than trying to maximize profit. I can think of much easier ways to make money than to operate a hostel catering to smelly thru hikers paying $25/night for lodging and collecting a few bucks for shuttles. But I always appreciate hiker services when offered and am grateful that the trail towns are there, not only on the AT but other trails.

scrabbler
03-14-2018, 20:25
Trail businesses have always seemed to me more a labor of love or trying to give back to the community rather than trying to maximize profit. I can think of much easier ways to make money than to operate a hostel catering to smelly thru hikers paying $25/night for lodging and collecting a few bucks for shuttles. But I always appreciate hiker services when offered and am grateful that the trail towns are there, not only on the AT but other trails.
I agree 100%. I was just trying to argue that this isnt a huge money making opportunity as the other poster had suggested.

The folks making the real money are the REI's that capture all of the millions of folks that romance hiking the trails and never do.

Slo-go'en
03-14-2018, 21:48
If I represent a typical hiker, I spend at least $100 in each town I visit by the time it's all said and done. If 4,000 hikers do that, that's more like $400,000 into the local economy and that is significant for these small Appalachian towns.

gpburdelljr
03-14-2018, 22:04
Less than 4000 started the AT last year. IF each of them spent $20 in every town, and it was divided between all those businesses, and DOUBLED next year, you're still only talking a few $1000 per business per town. Not what I would consider Wall Street material.

I think $20 per town is an extremely low estimate. Assuming a through hiker is spending $2 to $3 per mile ($4,000 -$6,000 for the entire trail), and hitting town every 100 miles, then you are talking about $200-$300, per hiker, per town.

illabelle
03-14-2018, 22:36
I think $20 per town is an extremely low estimate. Assuming a through hiker is spending $2 to $3 per mile ($4,000 -$6,000 for the entire trail), and hitting town every 100 miles, then you are talking about $200-$300, per hiker, per town.

What about all the towns they don't stop at? When I plan a section hike, there are usually a few options for resupply. We don't stop at all of them.

MuddyWaters
03-14-2018, 22:46
If I represent a typical hiker, I spend at least $100 in each town I visit by the time it's all said and done. If 4,000 hikers do that, that's more like $400,000 into the local economy and that is significant for these small Appalachian towns.

Very so.

Two nights lodging, 4 meals at restaurants, laundry, resupply isnt cheap.
Easily hit $200 if not share lodging

Theres many hikers other than thrus as well over the year. Shuttles, etc.



Then theres alcohol for many.

4eyedbuzzard
03-15-2018, 06:28
I read on a Facebook AT group post yesterday that the ATC has removed the list of shuttle drivers available to hikers on the AT. I did check the ATC web site and found the transportation page still on the web site, but I could not find the direct link to the shuttle driver list. The closest I could come to it was a link to Trek.co where they have an abbreviated list (https://thetrek.co/appalachian-trail/accessing-the-appalachian-trail-shuttles-buses-taxis/).

The rumor has it that many shuttle drivers are not licensed and insured, and because of that the ATC removed the list to mitigate their exposure. It was even said that in one state the state police visited shuttle drivers to remind them of their legal requirements.

Not sure how much of this information is accurate. For all I know the ATC may have moved the shuttle list to a different spot on their web site. Anyone have more information? More importantly, does anyone have the 2018 list downloaded and willing to share it?

Here's what ATC now has on their site - they link to lists of shuttles on other sites like WB http://appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/transportation-options

Here's the page they (ATC) took down last captured by the "wayback machine" on Sept 12 2017, https://web.archive.org/web/20170903234035/http://appalachiantrail.org:80/home/explore-the-trail/transportation-options/shuttles-sandbox


It would not surprise me if local law enforcement and/or insurance companies might look into shuttle drivers who are doing it as a business. Lot's of reasons, but the biggest are commercial vehicle safety and insurance laws. While fees and taxes might well come up as a result, the motivation for law enforcement is probably more on public safety (regarding both driver and vehicle) than revenue, as they would typically be expending more in enforcement than revenue collected. Insurance companies, however, are another story, and they may well be encouraging local LEO. And I can't blame them. Shuttling people around for profit and driving 1000's of miles in the process while not paying commercial rates adversely affects everybody in the personal risk pool, and may also severely impact any hiker unfortunate enough to be injured and find out the operator didn't have commercial coverage.

Here's the pdf ATC published on June 23, 2017 attached

Slo-go'en
03-15-2018, 09:14
So, how would insurance companies know that people are being given rides under the drivers personal car insurance? There are many insurance companies, would they all get together to get local LEO to target shuttle drivers? When many of the areas being serviced probably don't even have a police force and rely on State Troopers who rarely patrol the back roads in the mountains?

I suppose if there is a serious accident and a hiker passenger gets injured or killed, then the insurance co would find out about it. But I don't think this has ever happened yet. It could of course, so lets hope it never does.

What kind of insurance do UBER drivers have to have?

Zed
03-15-2018, 10:02
When I renewed my auto insurance they sent an updated exclusions page. They no longer provide coverage when the driver is logged into a ride sharing network, whether there is a paying passenger in the vehicle or not. I would imagine most policies would be adding this as Uber and Lyft become more popular.

The thought of insurance coverage for shuttle drivers or hostel owners did cross my mind twice on my hike. Both times were because of something specific the person did that was reckless or negligent.

Coffee
03-15-2018, 10:57
I have personal insurance to cover my medical costs should I get injured as a result of accepting a ride in a car, whether I am hitchhiking or using a paid shuttle. I don't personally care what kind of insurance the driver has. It isn't my problem and I wouldn't rely on the driver's insurance to pay for my medical bills. Obviously, if the driver does something negligent and lacks proper insurance, it is unlikely that one could sue the driver for punitive damages (pain and suffering) unless the driver is independently wealthy, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. People accepting rides in cars are under no obligation to check the driver's insurance coverage. I think this is clearly in the caveat emptor category.

ldsailor
03-15-2018, 11:36
What kind of insurance do UBER drivers have to have?

When an Uber driver is logged into the app, Uber provides a supplemental liability policy to the drivers insurance. If the driver does not have a commercial rider on their policy and they get into an accident, their insurance company will not cover them. Since Uber cars are usually late model cars in good condition, loss of their car because of a failure to secure the right insurance can be catastrophic for an Uber driver. It follows that a shuttle driver shuttles hikers with no insurance at all if they get in an accident and their insurance company discovers they were driving hikers for pay. That may be why you now see some shuttle drivers asking for "donations."

"Uber requires all of their drivers to have car insurance, and provides supplemental insurance coverage, but only while the app is on. Here's how it works: When the Uber app is off, a driver is covered by their own personal car insurance. When the Uberapp is turned on, a low level of liability insurance becomes active."

4eyedbuzzard
03-15-2018, 17:19
I have personal insurance to cover my medical costs should I get injured as a result of accepting a ride in a car, whether I am hitchhiking or using a paid shuttle. I don't personally care what kind of insurance the driver has. It isn't my problem and I wouldn't rely on the driver's insurance to pay for my medical bills. Obviously, if the driver does something negligent and lacks proper insurance, it is unlikely that one could sue the driver for punitive damages (pain and suffering) unless the driver is independently wealthy, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. People accepting rides in cars are under no obligation to check the driver's insurance coverage. I think this is clearly in the caveat emptor category.Just because you have personal insurance doesn't mean the insurance company pays your medical bills regardless of cause and the process ends with them just gladly footing the bill. You might want to google medical insurance subrogation and read the fine print in your policy.

Coffee
03-15-2018, 17:31
Just because you have personal insurance doesn't mean the insurance company pays your medical bills regardless of cause and the process ends with them just gladly footing the bill. You might want to google medical insurance subrogation and read the fine print in your policy.

My ACA medical insurance will most certainly pay the costs of injury that I sustain for any reason, subject to deductibles and co-pays. It's the law. There is no duty for me to check licensing and insurance of hired rides that I take that could result in injury.

MuddyWaters
03-15-2018, 17:35
Just because you have personal insurance doesn't mean the insurance company pays your medical bills regardless of cause and the process ends with them just gladly footing the bill. You might want to google medical insurance subrogation and read the fine print in your policy.

Whenever one of my kids went in for something like an MRI or such, which was pretty darn frequent since they played Sports, I would get a letter from my insurance company asking questions like were they in an auto accident, if so provide the contact Insurance blah blah blah blah blah .

My step-son had ankle surgery one time when he tore all three ligaments in his ankle playing football in high school. Same thing got a letter wanting to know who was responsible for this injury , where it happened, so that they could you get reimbursed from them. I just replied nobody.

So yes that the health insurance companies will come after injuries looking to see if somebody else is responsible and they can be reimbursed by it. But they also do pay it upfront because that is their responsibility primarily. And it's never gone any farther than a letter asking me if anybody else is responsible for those expenses.

I suppose if the expenses were hundreds of thousands of dollars of severe Hospital costs and surgeries due to an automobile accident they might investigate a little deeper. But they would still pay up front that's their their ccontract with you.

Coffee
03-15-2018, 17:37
So yes that the health insurance companies will come after injuries looking to see if somebody else is responsible and they can be reimbursed by it. But they also do pay it upfront because that is their responsibility primarily. And it's never gone any farther than a letter asking me if anybody else is responsible for those expenses.

That's exactly right. In my case, if Blue Cross wants to go after a third party to recover funds spent on my behalf, they are welcome to do so. But it isn't my problem - I am covered.

MuddyWaters
03-15-2018, 17:45
!
That's exactly right. In my case, if Blue Cross wants to go after a third party to recover funds spent on my behalf, they are welcome to do so. But it isn't my problem - I am covered.

You are entitled though to collect your deductible back from the party responsible for the injuries. I was stupid and didn't do this when two of my kids got injured. When my daughter broke her thumb in a softball game, the cost of her treatment exceeded her $1,500 deductible. The teams insurance reimburse me for that expense. We had a pitcher who collapse from heat and an out-of-state tournament one time and had a $800 ambulance ride to the hospital. The teams Insurance reimbursed her parents for that as well cuz that applied to her deductible and her insurance.

But you got to think and know that you can go after being reimbursed for your expenses and most people don't. I wouldn't have thought about it untiluthe coach told me to file the form.

When my son broke his leg playing lacrosse and the other son tore all the ankle tendons, I didn't go after getting reimbursed and that probably cost me $2,000. Many teams carry blanket insurance policies that provide secondary coverage. It's cheap like $40 a year a player through National organizations. And protects the team with a blanket policy in case somebody gets seriously hurt and they get sued.

But the point was you are due to be reimbursed you're out of pocket medical expenses by the responsible party.

Zed
03-15-2018, 18:39
In addition to recovering your out of pocket expenses, collecting against another's insurance can provide for lost income and other expenses your health insurance doesn't pay. There is no reason to be out money for another's negligence.

This also isn't about a duty to check if someone has insurance. It's the service provider's duty to carry proper insurance not only to protect their financial well-being, but also the injured party's.

4eyedbuzzard
03-15-2018, 19:09
That's exactly right. In my case, if Blue Cross wants to go after a third party to recover funds spent on my behalf, they are welcome to do so. But it isn't my problem - I am covered.Yes, your insurer will pay for your medical bills per the contract limitations - but they won't pay for lost wages, transportation to and from treatment or usually even from the accident, policy deductibles, dental care, etc. - and there can be a lot of etc. when you're injured in an auto accident. You could require/elect certain types of medical procedures or care that aren't covered. Policies simply don't cover everything. The at-fault party or their insurance company is responsible for that stuff in addition to subrogation claims from your health insurer - and if they don't pay you'll have to sue them. And you have a legal responsibility to inform your insurer if injuries were the fault of others - not just say "nothing" on a subrogation question.

peakbagger
03-15-2018, 19:29
Some states allow drivers to carry very low coverage liability insurance. Vermont is one of them. A driver gets in an accident with others seriously injured/disabled and the insurance doesn't cover anywhere near the actual medical costs. Passengers are left with long term disability and the driver declares bankruptcy.

Coffee
03-15-2018, 19:29
Yes, your insurer will pay for your medical bills per the contract limitations - but they won't pay for lost wages, transportation to and from treatment or usually even from the accident, policy deductibles, dental care, etc. - and there can be a lot of etc. when you're injured in an auto accident. You could require/elect certain types of medical procedures or care that aren't covered. Policies simply don't cover everything. The at-fault party or their insurance company is responsible for that stuff in addition to subrogation claims from your health insurer - and if they don't pay you'll have to sue them. And you have a legal responsibility to inform your insurer if injuries were the fault of others - not just say "nothing" on a subrogation question.

That's all fine and risks I'm willing to take. And no one said anything about misleading the insurer.

MuddyWaters
03-15-2018, 20:14
Some states allow drivers to carry very low coverage liability insurance. Vermont is one of them. A driver gets in an accident with others seriously injured/disabled and the insurance doesn't cover anywhere near the actual medical costs. Passengers are left with long term disability and the driver declares bankruptcy.
Well, 15--30% of drivers can be uninsured in some states.
Forget about sueing, they dont have a pot to pee in, or a window to throw it out of.

Ive known a few people over years that dropped their own insurance on their vehicle because it was greater than 5 years old or something like this and then the car was totaled in an accident, and the at fault driver had no insurance.

Fortunately some states have a no pay no play clause. Where if you don't have insurance you can not collect anything in the accident regardless of who's fault it is.
I was actually in an accident where the police said I was at fault even though I wasn't. There was a witness who story was conflicting and had all kinds of errors in it that the police based his decision on. North South directions were wrong the order of the light changing was wrong the number of cars were wrong etc. My big truck totaled the little Honda accord. It hit my right front wheel and literally crush the front end of it and bounced off. The vehicles were separated by 5 feet after the car bounced away. My truck had no damage, except a little dent on my bumper where the car's front-end at gone under it. I bolted on a replacement bumper and was good. But they couldn't collect a dime because they had no insurance regardless of what the police report said. The funny part was the driver was actually staying at a house two houses down the street from me and had just moved there. With no place to stay some people from their Church were letting her stay with them. And the car was borrowed from a friend in another state. They towed the totaled car to their driveway and had it there for a while until it was disposed of.

SkeeterPee
03-15-2018, 23:29
that link for shuttle drivers did not work for me either. does anyone still have the AT list? I've used it may times. If not maybe i'll find it on the waybackachine.

tdoczi
03-16-2018, 06:46
that link for shuttle drivers did not work for me either. does anyone still have the AT list? I've used it may times. If not maybe i'll find it on the waybackachine.

link still works for me. i'm curious as to why now 2 people cant get it to work. what happens when you click on it?

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-source/default-document-library/at-shuttles.pdf?sfvrsn=0

Bronk
03-16-2018, 14:23
If its true that the ATC removed their list because not all of the shuttle drivers were obeying the law, then doesn't that make some of what is posted here in this thread in violation of terms of service for this website, ie discussions of illegal activity?

4eyedbuzzard
03-16-2018, 14:58
If its true that the ATC removed their list because not all of the shuttle drivers were obeying the law, then doesn't that make some of what is posted here in this thread in violation of terms of service for this website, ie discussions of illegal activity?I believe ATC probably took the list down due to POTENTIAL CIVIL liability, without making any judgment as to who was in compliance or not, as it would be almost impossible for them to determine. ATC doesn't want to be a named party in a personal injury lawsuit because they recommended any particular shuttle. Nobody here is recommending breaking any laws, actually we're kind of more discussing the importance of obeying insurance laws and civil liability standards.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

tdoczi
03-16-2018, 15:33
I believe ATC probably took the list down due to POTENTIAL CIVIL liability, without making any judgment as to who was in compliance or not, as it would be almost impossible for them to determine. ATC doesn't want to be a named party in a personal injury lawsuit because they recommended any particular shuttle.

and this, i feel, is what we mean we complain about us being too litigious a society.

i don't think anyone for a second is saying an injured party shouldn't seek compensation from those who injured them, but this roping in of parties tangentially related at best and holding them responsible is the issue. i'm no historian, but i hare a hard time buying that the puritans or whatever societies from the past were referenced earlier in this thread were in the bait of using the legal system in such a manner.

if someone comes on this website and asks for a recommendation for a hike (lets not even touch shuttle or other transportation recommendations) and that person slips and falls on wet rock, is it now the responsibility of both the user of this website who made the recommendation and the website itself because the post that made the recommendation failed to include a warning to be careful when the rocks are wet?

personal responsibility is ever more replaced by an ever increasing desire to place blame elsewhere.

Slo-go'en
03-16-2018, 16:09
Or, maybe the real reason is keeping a current, up to date list of shuttle providers is just too much work to maintain.

rickb
03-16-2018, 16:34
Perhaps thy could add something like this to their list:


Cautionary note: This listing is provided as an information service for A.T. hikers and does not constitute an endorsement by the Appalachian Trail Conservancy (ATC) of the dependability or safety of the service providers listed. ATC does not conduct background checks of shuttlers on this list, nor do we verify that they hold licenses, permits, or insurance. While some service providers may be members of the ATC, they are not representatives, employees, or agents of the ATC, and their services are not in any way affiliated with the ATC. Arrange shuttles at your own risk; you are responsible for your own safety.


Oh wait, they did! :)

4eyedbuzzard
03-16-2018, 17:02
Or, maybe the real reason is keeping a current, up to date list of shuttle providers is just too much work to maintain.Very possible, and/or maybe a combination of things like these. Stuff like shuttles, water sources, hostels, etc are all included in the various AT guides that are published and updated each year - and ATC sells both the Companion and AWOL's on their website. As I remember there was some discussion many years ago about ATC and water sources along the trail, and how identifying them presented a potential liability. Whatever reason, it seems to be a done deal. Just an observation - the bigger an organization gets, the bigger a target they become, and the more proactive they get regarding protecting themselves.

Coffee
03-16-2018, 19:25
If its true that the ATC removed their list because not all of the shuttle drivers were obeying the law, then doesn't that make some of what is posted here in this thread in violation of terms of service for this website, ie discussions of illegal activity?

No one has said that it is ok for shuttles to not obey the law. As a hiker, however, it is both impractical and limiting to demand proof of commercial insurance from everyone you get a ride from. And hitchhiking obviously precludes that level of diligence. There's risk in everything in life and getting into a stranger's car, whether an Uber, a Taxi in a big city, an informal shuttle on the AT, or sticking your thumb out on a highway are all levels of risk and people need to decide what they're comfortable with.

SkeeterPee
03-16-2018, 20:22
link still works for me. i'm curious as to why now 2 people cant get it to work. what happens when you click on it?

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-source/default-document-library/at-shuttles.pdf?sfvrsn=0

The resource cannot be found. Description: HTTP 404. The resource you are looking for (or one of its dependencies) could have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable. Please review the following URL and make sure that it is spelled correctly.

Requested URL: /docs/default-source/default-document-library/at-shuttles.pdf

rocketsocks
03-16-2018, 20:48
If its true that the ATC removed their list because not all of the shuttle drivers were obeying the law, then doesn't that make some of what is posted here in this thread in violation of terms of service for this website, ie discussions of illegal activity?the thread’s innocent until proven guilty :D

tdoczi
03-16-2018, 22:11
The resource cannot be found. Description: HTTP 404. The resource you are looking for (or one of its dependencies) could have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable. Please review the following URL and make sure that it is spelled correctly.

Requested URL: /docs/default-source/default-document-library/at-shuttles.pdf


odd, have tried it on a few different computers now, no issue at all. going to try attaching it to this post

Zed
03-16-2018, 22:49
I can't get to it either. It's possible your ISP is caching it.

tdoczi
03-17-2018, 07:59
I can't get to it either. It's possible your ISP is caching it.

maybe, but then so is where i work.

at any rate, its attached to one of my posts now.

Traveler
03-17-2018, 09:53
Thanks. I've downloaded it in case they remove it. Unfortunate we live in such a litigious society.
Conversely, its unfortunate some people ignore insurance in for fee services like these, unfairly competing with responsible businesses and negligently putting clients at risk.

Traveler
03-17-2018, 10:20
So, how would insurance companies know that people are being given rides under the drivers personal car insurance? There are many insurance companies, would they all get together to get local LEO to target shuttle drivers? When many of the areas being serviced probably don't even have a police force and rely on State Troopers who rarely patrol the back roads in the mountains?

I suppose if there is a serious accident and a hiker passenger gets injured or killed, then the insurance co would find out about it. But I don't think this has ever happened yet. It could of course, so lets hope it never does.

What kind of insurance do UBER drivers have to have?

The only time insurers discover drivers are using personal insurance for commercial operations is when there is an accident. Those involved in the accident will file claims (directly or through their insurers) agains the driver's insurer, which will lead to an investigation. Once its discovered the drivers policy did not cover commercial use of the vehicle, claims will be denied, personal policy will be cancelled, and the driver exposed to civil actions. Police forces do not necessarily patrol for civil requirements unless it is part of an investigation, which if the accident is serious enough they too will discover the driver isn't covered for the use. The driver is then exposed to civil actions for lost equipment, injuries or death, and possible criminal negligence charges if there are violations of road laws involved. The risk is pretty substantial for clients taking rides who are not aware there is no coverage.

Accidents involving people using their cars for commercial use are quite common in the US, how many specifically in the AT shuttle service industry is anyones guess since most accidents are minor and do not reach the level of media reporting and are likely shown as personal vehicle accidents. This is where negligence standards apply in both civil and criminal law, which are difficult to defend.

As I understand it from several UBER drivers, they have an insurance rider they are provided when they take fares from the UBER network. However, even if the driver says he is an UBER driver and you have not used the system to secure the ride, the insurance is not provided for that driver on that ride.

ldsailor
03-17-2018, 13:13
As I understand it from several UBER drivers, they have an insurance rider they are provided when they take fares from the UBER network. However, even if the driver says he is an UBER driver and you have not used the system to secure the ride, the insurance is not provided for that driver on that ride.

That is true. I pointed this out in post #36 of this thread. Part of that post:

"Uber requires all of their drivers to have car insurance, and provides supplemental insurance coverage, but only while the app is on. Here's how it works: When the Uber app is off, a driver is covered by their own personal car insurance. When the Uberapp is turned on, a low level of liability insurance becomes active."

Captain Blue
03-17-2018, 14:56
The ATC still has a list of "Local Transit & Regional Transit Stations" that lists busses and trains. I wonder how the ATC verifies these places are paying their insurance?

Thefurther
03-18-2018, 06:31
So, how would insurance companies know that people are being given rides under the drivers personal car insurance? There are many insurance companies, would they all get together to get local LEO to target shuttle drivers? When many of the areas being serviced probably don't even have a police force and rely on State Troopers who rarely patrol the back roads in the mountains?

I suppose if there is a serious accident and a hiker passenger gets injured or killed, then the insurance co would find out about it. But I don't think this has ever happened yet. It could of course, so lets hope it never does.

What kind of insurance do UBER drivers have to have? it is called livery insurance ... ride share insurance .

Thefurther
03-18-2018, 07:15
I agree 100%. I was just trying to argue that this isnt a huge money making opportunity as the other poster had suggested.

The folks making the real money are the REI's that capture all of the millions of folks that romance hiking the trails and never do.

i'm not sure why you want to argue . i'm actually a growing business on the trail and know a little about what is going on . i was able to start with nothing after my hike and blossomed into a company that has commercial insurance and one employee . i'm continuing to grow as we speak . life is what you make it . if you think small you will never make it . i'm not a " i settle " type of guy . if you want to say that it is small money and no one is making any all the power to you . to argue just for the sake of arguing is unhealthy . peace my friend and good luck brother

gpburdelljr
03-18-2018, 10:25
This is now posted on the ATC website.

http://appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/transportation-options

ldsailor
03-18-2018, 13:13
This is now posted on the ATC website.

http://appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/transportation-options

Well, that makes it official. I wonder how long before other sites that provide a shuttle list follow suit. This is not a good deal for both the shuttle drivers and the hikers.

D2maine
03-18-2018, 15:38
Well, that makes it official. I wonder how long before other sites that provide a shuttle list follow suit. This is not a good deal for both the shuttle drivers and the hikers.

funny enough its possible to hike the trail without a shuttle ride...hikers will survive, as will the shuttle drivers.

Miner
03-18-2018, 19:41
funny enough its possible to hike the trail without a shuttle ride...hikers will survive, as will the shuttle drivers. It's far easier for a thru-hiker to hike without using a shuttle than a section hiker who is looking to get on/off the trail at a location that doesn't have a lot of public transportation options. Not everyone has the extra vacation time to extend a hike so they can get off at a convenient location.

4eyedbuzzard
03-18-2018, 20:46
The ATC still has a list of "Local Transit & Regional Transit Stations" that lists busses and trains. I wonder how the ATC verifies these places are paying their insurance?I think there's a pretty big difference between a private shuttle driver with one car and public transit companies like buses and trains, and most all of the trains are quasi-government public benefit corporations of some sort anyway. Public transit companies are subject to a lot of government oversight. Their equipment gets inspected regularly, their drivers get background checks, etc. I would seriously doubt that Greyhound (or even little old Cyr Bus Lines in ME) ever lets its insurance lapse or doesn't have the appropriate coverage for its type of operation.

Sarcasm the elf
03-18-2018, 20:51
The ATC has clearly taken this step for the sole purpose of trolling Whiteblaze and they are currently watching this discussion and laughing. :rolleyes:

Digger'02
03-19-2018, 09:56
The ATC has clearly take this step for the sole purpose of trolling Whiteblaze and they are currently watching this discussion and laughing. :rolleyes:

-the first factually infallible post on White Blaze!!!! I see that LaurieP has not posted yet, but to keep you all from ripping each others eyeballs out (too late) I'll try to help: This is not my department at ATC BUT I believe we removed the shuttle list because there were other organizations that were doing a good job of keeping a good list up to date, and (not to give toooo much red meat to the wolves), there is still some level of desire to keep the A.T. management structure as decentralized and grass-roots as possible (I regret typing that already :)

There have been shuttlers, primarily in VA that have been cited by the state for not having insurance. this did not play a major role in the decision to take the shuttle list down, but we are looking into a legal solution for these services.

ldsailor
03-19-2018, 12:41
funny enough its possible to hike the trail without a shuttle ride...hikers will survive, as will the shuttle drivers.

I'm not a thru-hiker. In two years, I've done 1280 miles of the AT during hikes in the spring and fall of both years. Last year I had to get to Marion, VA from the Roanoke airport to start my hike. The point is not everyone can avoid the need for a ride. In May of this year I have to get to Wind Gap, PA, and I'll need a ride from the Allentown, PA airport.

The AT Facebook group probably has someone asking about shuttles at least twice a week. Talk to a shuttle driver and they'll tell you they are busy at this time of the year. Thank you for your comment, but honestly, you are not addressing the issue from the needs of those who are not as fortunate as you to not need a paid ride.

D2maine
03-19-2018, 18:24
I'm not a thru-hiker. In two years, I've done 1280 miles of the AT during hikes in the spring and fall of both years. Last year I had to get to Marion, VA from the Roanoke airport to start my hike. The point is not everyone can avoid the need for a ride. In May of this year I have to get to Wind Gap, PA, and I'll need a ride from the Allentown, PA airport.

The AT Facebook group probably has someone asking about shuttles at least twice a week. Talk to a shuttle driver and they'll tell you they are busy at this time of the year. Thank you for your comment, but honestly, you are not addressing the issue from the needs of those who are not as fortunate as you to not need a paid ride.

if there were no shuttles(never going to happen) and you wanted to hike bad enough you would find a way.

All that has happened is ATC is no longer maintaining their own list of drivers. Drivers will still be available - you may have to work a little harder to find them - but be assured despite all the overwrought concern in this thread, drivers who want business will get the word out on how to get in touch.

BillyGr
03-20-2018, 10:54
Might even be a benefit to both the other sites (like this one) and even the hikers overall. The obvious benefit to the sites listed is that they get more people visiting to check the listings - the benefit to the hikers is that, once they get to the site looking for that list one can hope that they also check other pages on the site and perhaps get other information that will help them be a better hiker in the long run.

gpburdelljr
03-20-2018, 11:49
The ATC webpage on shuttles provides 5 links to the shuttle page of other websites, including Whiteblaze.net, that have shuttle listings.

http://appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/transportation-options