View Full Version : cuben fiber tarps -- pricing stable or likely to come down?
Elaikases
03-15-2018, 16:00
My real question is whether or not cuben fiber fabric is going to stay stable in price or might come down.
Anyone have any idea? Seems like the patents should be expired.
===========================
Background.
I was looking at 8'x10" or 8'x12' tarps.
The fabric looks like it is $32.00 per running yard at 54" or 9' (when doubled) x 12' or 2 units per yard for 12' or 4 yards. 8x32=$256.00
An 8x10' tarp purchased as a tarp is $355.00. Or 8.5' x 10' rectangle - $275. 7.7 ounces
https://ripstopbytheroll.com/products/0-51-oz-dyneema-composite-fabric
https://www.hyperlitemountaingear.com/flat-tarp.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI78LU54vv2QIVErnACh3cHA QuEAQYASABEgKxgfD_BwE
http://www.zpacks.com/shelter/tarps.shtml
https://dutchwaregear.com/product/dyneema-composite-fabric/ -- heavier fabric.
http://graysoncobb.com/diy-two-ounce-tarp/
http://www.carryology.com/insights/insights-1/dyneema-vs-x-pac-ultralight-fabrics/
I want to read these opinions. Let em rip.
fastfoxengineering
03-15-2018, 16:19
Why do you want a cuben tarp?
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fastfoxengineering
03-15-2018, 16:26
I should add. Yes cuben is expensive but at least your looking at it from a manufacturers standpoint on price. They're not charging ridiculous prices as some people would claim. They charge a reasonable fee to produce these goods. Materials cost is expensive for them too.
But no I don't see DCF getting much cheaper and time soon.
But once again... What are the reasons you want a Cuben tarp?
Don't just do it cause they're lighter. Lighter is not always better. What applications is this tarp for?
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Hatchet_1697
03-15-2018, 16:49
In the short term it will probably stay around the same price. Long term it might come down. There is a lot of research going on with DCF — ballistics applications to protect against IEDs, Dyneema carbon fiber materials for race cars, new variants for aviation/space applications. The more uses found for DCF the more is made the lower the price. Supply and demand.
Geek aside, if you want a DCF tarp and can afford it buy it. Or wait for the off season holiday discounts. Some of those are pretty good deals.
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A state of the DCF market report, on WB?:-?
MuddyWaters
03-15-2018, 16:57
I don't think the market for Cuben is big enough that it matters. Much of the cost of Cuben gear is the fact that has to be made by hand by skilled people, and can't simply be farmed out to any sewing shop in taiwan.
[QUOTE=Elaikases;2199650]My real question is whether or not cuben fiber fabric is going to stay stable in price or might come down.
Anyone have any idea? Seems like the patents should be expired.
===========================
Background.
I was looking at 8'x10" or 8'x12' tarps.
The fabric looks like it is $32.00 per running yard at 54" or 9' (when doubled) x 12' or 2 units per yard for 12' or 4 yards. 8x32=$256.00
An 8x10' tarp purchased as a tarp is $355.00. Or 8.5' x 10' rectangle - $275. 7.7 ounces
I don't know if the price will ever come down in the near future.
It appears to be a relatively specialized product ( at least in terms of manufacturing volume ) to generate enough competition between mfg.
The raw material itself appears to be some form of plastic that is easy to come by but creating it into a use able product is tough to do ( speculation on my part ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene
I too, have noticed that the retail price for the fabric, is quite high compared to what one can purchase as a usable product. That is a head scratcher for me. I am sure there is a rational answer. Just, don't know what it is.
just an opinion.
AllDownhillFromHere
03-15-2018, 17:43
“Good Lord,” he murmured, “good Lord! What will you people do next? Look here. What's your basis of applying freight rates, anyhow?” he suddenly vociferated with furious sarcasm. “What's your rule? What are you guided by?”But at the words, S. Behrman, who had kept silent during the heat of the discussion, leaned abruptly forward. For the only time in his knowledge, Dyke saw his face inflamed with anger and with the enmity and contempt of all this farming element with whom he was contending.“Yes, what's your rule? What's your basis?” demanded Dyke, turning swiftly to him.S. Behrman emphasised each word of his reply with a tap of one forefinger on the counter before him:“All—the—traffic—will—bear.”
Elaikases
03-15-2018, 18:13
I was looking at a replacement for polycro that might last a little longer. Not at the price.
I don't know if the price will ever come down in the near future.
It appears to be a relatively specialized product ( at least in terms of manufacturing volume ) to generate enough competition between mfg.
The raw material itself appears to be some form of plastic that is easy to come by but creating it into a use able product is tough to do ( speculation on my part )https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-...t_polyethylene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene)
I too, have noticed that the retail price for the fabric, is quite high compared to what one can purchase as a usable product. That is a head scratcher for me. I am sure there is a rational answer. Just, don't know what it is.
I've been impressed that the profit margins are so narrow,
I was really looking to replace a polycro tarp. Looking for something in the same weight area.
But I just wince at the prices.
On the polycro alternatives:
https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/how-to-make-a-polycryo-a-frame-tarp/
https://www.google.com/search?q=polycro+tarp&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=jyNfWZnkBhFOjM%253A%252CjQpjZCErRY-LyM%252C_&usg=__4AAlAmpHQR5tLEM4Y37GxWAe4Js%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjTh-L0ne_ZAhULr4MKHRDHApcQ9QEIVDAC#imgrc=jyNfWZnkBhFOj M:
https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php/97056-DIY-No-tape-No-sew-Polycryo-(some-call-it-Polycro)-Tarp
https://sticksblog.com/tag/polycro-tarp/
https://www.amazon.com/Duck-Indoor-84-Inch-120-Inch-282450/dp/B000NHW2Z6/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521151945&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=polycryo+window
I've been very happy with mine. Basically a use in case of emergencies tarp for setting up a tent in the rain. I use sheet bend knots and a ridgeline rope and it has worked well on section hikes. Weighs around six ounces (including shock cord and tent pegs). Keeps the tent underneath it dry and kept me dry setting up.
I was thinking the cuben fiber would last longer, but the price difference is huge. $350 vs. $7.50. For that I can replace the tarp on occasion.
“Good Lord,” he murmured, “good Lord! What will you people do next? Look here. What's your basis of applying freight rates, anyhow?” he suddenly vociferated with furious sarcasm. “What's your rule? What are you guided by?”But at the words, S. Behrman, who had kept silent during the heat of the discussion, leaned abruptly forward. For the only time in his knowledge, Dyke saw his face inflamed with anger and with the enmity and contempt of all this farming ele1ment with whom he was contending.“Yes, what's your rule? What's your basis?” demanded Dyke, turning swiftly to him.S. Behrman emphasised each word of his reply with a tap of one forefinger on the counter before him:“All—the—traffic—will—bear.”
lmao................I believe I stated that there must be a rational answer:D:-?.
The poor child was traumatized by the actions of a world gone mad and unfortunately never quite got over it.
AllDownhillFromHere
03-15-2018, 22:16
lmao................I believe I stated that there must be a rational answer:D:-?.
The poor child was traumatized by the actions of a world gone mad and unfortunately never quite got over it.
Not sure why this is so funny, but it is the Internet after all.
Not sure why this is so funny, but it is the Internet after all.
AAAhhh................I got my libertertarians mixed up.
Norris was a family relation. First I've ever heard him quoted. In that work he names long gone family members. We're you aware of that? :)
fastfoxengineering
03-15-2018, 23:58
I was looking at a replacement for polycro that might last a little longer. Not at the price.
I don't know if the price will ever come down in the near future.
It appears to be a relatively specialized product ( at least in terms of manufacturing volume ) to generate enough competition between mfg.
The raw material itself appears to be some form of plastic that is easy to come by but creating it into a use able product is tough to do ( speculation on my part )https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-...t_polyethylene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene)
I too, have noticed that the retail price for the fabric, is quite high compared to what one can purchase as a usable product. That is a head scratcher for me. I am sure there is a rational answer. Just, don't know what it is.
I've been impressed that the profit margins are so narrow,
I was really looking to replace a polycro tarp. Looking for something in the same weight area.
But I just wince at the prices.
On the polycro alternatives:
https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/how-to-make-a-polycryo-a-frame-tarp/
https://www.google.com/search?q=polycro+tarp&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=jyNfWZnkBhFOjM%253A%252CjQpjZCErRY-LyM%252C_&usg=__4AAlAmpHQR5tLEM4Y37GxWAe4Js%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjTh-L0ne_ZAhULr4MKHRDHApcQ9QEIVDAC#imgrc=jyNfWZnkBhFOj M:
https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php/97056-DIY-No-tape-No-sew-Polycryo-(some-call-it-Polycro)-Tarp
https://sticksblog.com/tag/polycro-tarp/
https://www.amazon.com/Duck-Indoor-84-Inch-120-Inch-282450/dp/B000NHW2Z6/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521151945&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=polycryo+window
I've been very happy with mine. Basically a use in case of emergencies tarp for setting up a tent in the rain. I use sheet bend knots and a ridgeline rope and it has worked well on section hikes. Weighs around six ounces (including shock cord and tent pegs). Keeps the tent underneath it dry and kept me dry setting up.
I was thinking the cuben fiber would last longer, but the price difference is huge. $350 vs. $7.50. For that I can replace the tarp on occasion.
Well if a $7 tarp is working fine for you. I wouldn't replace it with a $300 tarp.
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Norris was a family relation. First I've ever heard him quoted. In that work he names long gone family members. We're you aware of that? :)
YOU are related to Chuck Norris!? WOW, I am quite envious!
Lol nah...not that norris ...as far as I know. Chuck Norris has posted here though in the long runnING CN humor threads. Might want to browse through them far a laugh
A state of the DCF market report, on WB?:-?
BPL ain't doing it. They are far to interested in spending all their time supporting (read - making excuses for) their garbage forum software, charging people to post, and producing very little content in return. But for $97 dollars a year, you can post, sell stuff, and get access to skills webinars which they say they will make.
Or you can hang out at WB or r/ultralight and get all that for free.
BPL ain't doing it. They are far to interested in spending all their time supporting (read - making excuses for) their garbage forum software, charging people to post, and producing very little content in return. But for $97 dollars a year, you can post, sell stuff, and get access to skills webinars which they say they will make.
Or you can hang out at WB or r/ultralight and get all that for free.
Wow ! Throw them all under the bus .
Wow ! Throw them all under the bus .
Just kinda sad to see them be such a shadow of what they once were. It looks like they are trying to make a path forward this year by setting out a plan for future articles, skills teaching, etc. But the masses don't even bother because they cannot participate in the forums for free.
But back on topic. I don't see the price of cuben fiber getting any lower since there is no competitor to it currently. Some of the 7d silpoly stuff is promising (GG The One, GG The Two). And we are still waiting to see the finished weight on the Lunar Solo and Skyscape Trekker refreshes at Six Moon Designs. The Gatewood Cape went from 13oz to 10oz with their new sil nylon/sil poly or whatever it is material. If the gatewood cape dropped 3oz, I expect the Lunar Solo and the Skyscape to drop even more since they have larger canopies and floors.
Yeah, wow. Nothing against WB, but I'm willing to recognize BPL as a very good source for concise tech and gear demo details, and state of the market reports. I'm going directly to the outdoor industry and wonks on BPL for some things. The pay firewall, quality of content, and general flow on BPL can be appreciated without resorting to throwing either site under a bus.
Hatchet_1697
03-16-2018, 12:47
A state of the DCF market report, on WB?:-?
Yeah, lol. I was in work mode when I read this and totally geeked out. The DCF-carbon fiber mix for race cars/race trucks is cool, but no real UL backpacking applications. Always looking for something strong but lighter. :)
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AllDownhillFromHere
03-16-2018, 13:06
But back on topic. I don't see the price of cuben fiber getting any lower since there is no competitor to it currently. Some of the 7d silpoly stuff is promising (GG The One, GG The Two). And we are still waiting to see the finished weight on the Lunar Solo and Skyscape Trekker refreshes at Six Moon Designs. The Gatewood Cape went from 13oz to 10oz with their new sil nylon/sil poly or whatever it is material. If the gatewood cape dropped 3oz, I expect the Lunar Solo and the Skyscape to drop even more since they have larger canopies and floors.
Not only no competitor, but people continue to buy it. The market says that the price delta is worth it, so there's a price delta.
Yeah, wow. Nothing against WB, but I'm willing to recognize BPL as a very good source for concise tech and gear demo details, and state of the market reports. I'm going directly to the outdoor industry and wonks on BPL for some things. The pay firewall, quality of content, and general flow on BPL can be appreciated without resorting to throwing either site under a bus.
I’ve learned lots on that site . More left coast hiking and gear choices.
Thom
Given what I paid for a Cuben Fiber tarp in 2008 and again in 2017, but have regularly checked prices almost every year in between, I can safely say it's only gone up with no sign of going down. And what I was once told, what makes CF finished products so expensive isn't just the cost of the raw material, but how difficult it is to work with compared to say SilNylon.
But back on topic. I don't see the price of cuben fiber getting any lower since there is no competitor to it currently. Some of the 7d silpoly stuff is promising (GG The One, GG The Two). And we are still waiting to see the finished weight on the Lunar Solo and Skyscape Trekker refreshes at Six Moon Designs. The Gatewood Cape went from 13oz to 10oz with their new sil nylon/sil poly or whatever it is material. If the gatewood cape dropped 3oz, I expect the Lunar Solo and the Skyscape to drop even more since they have larger canopies and floors.
New Osprey Pack, an upscale Exos that uses a new fabric. Osprey gives the fabric their own proprietary name, but it appears to be some cuben derivative.
https://www.osprey.com/us/en/product/levity-45-LEVITY45_577.html
For 50 bucks retail you lose approx 8 oz of weight
Cuben fiber without calling it cuben fiber?
Major pack company delving into the market area of cottage companies?
cmoulder
03-17-2018, 07:04
New Osprey Pack, an upscale Exos that uses a new fabric. Osprey gives the fabric their own proprietary name, but it appears to be some cuben derivative.
https://www.osprey.com/us/en/product/levity-45-LEVITY45_577.html
For 50 bucks retail you lose approx 8 oz of weight
Cuben fiber without calling it cuben fiber?
Major pack company delving into the market area of cottage companies?
Really? DCF is essentially unwoven Dyneema sandwiched in Mylar.
From the mfgr description:
FABRIC
MAIN 30D Cordura® Silnylon Ripstop
ACCENT NanoFly™ 210D Nylon X 200D UHMWPE
BOTTOM NanoFly™ 210D Nylon X 200D UHMWPE
They then call it SuperUltralight(!) and list size M at 1.852 lbs (29.6oz), which is 5.6oz heavier than Zpacks' heaviest, Arc Haul. And the Levity in question is listed as 45 liter, Arc Haul at 62 liter (although that includes front mesh panel and side pockets).
Not to quibble over ounces and terminology (forgive us, oh Tipi), but they're marching into territory where such things are much more closely scrutinized. "Super Ultralight" has a specific meaning, and this ain't it.
Really? DCF is essentially unwoven Dyneema sandwiched in Mylar.
From the mfgr description:
They then call it SuperUltralight(!) and list size M at 1.852 lbs (29.6oz), which is 5.6oz heavier than Zpacks' heaviest, Arc Haul. And the Levity in question is listed as 45 liter, Arc Haul at 62 liter (although that includes front mesh panel and side pockets).
Not to quibble over ounces and terminology (forgive us, oh Tipi), but they're marching into territory where such things are much more closely scrutinized. "Super Ultralight" has a specific meaning, and this ain't it.
Such PASSION..............I like Zpacks too, but the big brands are always slowly moving forward, whether you like it or not.
I believe there was a thread that scrutinized a new Cuben Tent. The main focus was the price. Numbers like Price / Oz were bandied about, to prove a point............perhaps that should be applied to this new entry into the market.
Me thinks, that there are a number of folks who are allowing their brand loyalty cloud their responses. We seem to get quite attached to our gear.....................
In your post you stated:
FABRIC
MAIN 30D Cordura® Silnylon Ripstop
ACCENT NanoFly™ 210D Nylon X 200D UHMWPE
BOTTOM NanoFly™ 210D Nylon X 200D UHMWPE
UHMWPE........and, what is that? Could that be Cuben Fiber by another name?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene
cmoulder
03-17-2018, 11:18
PASSION? Brand loyalty clouding response?
Simple facts:
You said "but it appears to be some cuben derivative" .... The material isn't anything like DCF.
They said: "SUPERULTRALIGHT" ..... the weight is nowhere near SUL.
Which of these facts do you dispute?
cmoulder
03-17-2018, 11:21
In your post you stated:
FABRIC
MAIN 30D Cordura® Silnylon Ripstop
ACCENT NanoFly™ 210D Nylon X 200D UHMWPE
BOTTOM NanoFly™ 210D Nylon X 200D UHMWPE
UHMWPE........and, what is that? Could that be Cuben Fiber by another name?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene
Please, educate yourself and then get back to us.
BuckeyeBill
03-17-2018, 11:33
My Tarptent Notch weighs 27 oz. + guylines and stakes. My DCF tarp weighs 7.3 oz. + guylines, stakes and a continuous ridgeline made of zing-it. I also use a Dutch ware hook and stinger. My tarp with every thing else still weighs less than my tent set up.
Hey, try to have a nice day
cmoulder
03-17-2018, 11:45
Hey, try to have a nice day
Thanks, and good luck with your research.
New Osprey Pack, an upscale Exos that uses a new fabric. Osprey gives the fabric their own proprietary name, but it appears to be some cuben derivative.
https://www.osprey.com/us/en/product/levity-45-LEVITY45_577.html
For 50 bucks retail you lose approx 8 oz of weight
Cuben fiber without calling it cuben fiber?
Major pack company delving into the market area of cottage companies?
Ooh ahh feel my hand inching towards my SUL credit card.:D
I chuckle at the gear geek marketing. The Levity, the Lumina, ventilated, stream lined, reliably durable, not just for thru hikes, Nano Fly 210D Nylon X 200D UHMWPE...
I think I just wet out my SUL briefs.
Well, isn't that special...gear wonk flame fest wars on WB. Now, this is entertainment.:D
Cmoulder, Yaduck needs help. You're in a different place but in a place to help. Sounds like you know somethings he doesnt. Lead him through it...nicely. lol. Don't blame him for Osprey hitting on all "SUL" market selling cylinders although I q agree with you about the hard sell SUL BS.
cmoulder
03-17-2018, 13:13
lol, minor skirmish compared to an actual flame war.... a lot more participants needed for that! :)
And also a topic that is at least a teensy-weensy bit subjective. I don't know how somebody gets so worked up when the facts are so starkly obvious.
But as all the cool kids say (or so I've read) "Whatevs"
lol,... I don't know how somebody gets so worked up when the facts are so starkly obvious.
But as all the cool kids say (or so I've read) "Whatevs"
Thats what my sis says to my niece about cleaning her bedroom and that's what she says back.:)
cmoulder
03-17-2018, 13:31
Cmoulder, Yaduck needs help. You're in a different place but in a place to help. Sounds like you know somethings he doesnt. Lead him through it...nicely. lol. Don't blame him for Osprey hitting on all "SUL" market selling cylinders although I q agree with you about the hard sell SUL BS.
Maybe he'd be more inclined to believe it if it came from you.
I mean, I've already poisoned the waters by insisting that 24 oz is lighter than 29.6oz, and that 29.6oz is not a SUL pack.
Now, I actually don't know precisely what NanoFly™ 210D Nylon X 200D UHMWPE is, but I'd bet a chunk o' change that it is very similar to what MLD calls Dyneema X and Zpacks calls Dyneema Gridstop. I think we all know what ripstop silnylon is. Well most of us, anyway.
As you know, these don't even faintly resemble DCF.
Convert from ozs to grams. Maybe Yaduck only knows metric.:D
RU kidding me? I'm still waiting for a state of the DCF market report. Miner took the best shot at it so far.
cmoulder
03-17-2018, 13:50
Convert from ozs to grams. Maybe Yaduck only knows metric.:D
RU kidding me? I'm still waiting for a state of the DCF market report. Miner took the best shot at it so far.
All I know is that 1oz = 28.35g
And Coffee's little meme pretty much describes my relationship with Cuben. I tried an inexpensive Xenon 1.1 silpoly tarp with the hammock setup but I just couldn't sleep knowing that a Cuben tarp would weigh half as much. :o
Offshore
03-17-2018, 13:57
BPL ain't doing it. They are far to interested in spending all their time supporting (read - making excuses for) their garbage forum software, charging people to post, and producing very little content in return. But for $97 dollars a year, you can post, sell stuff, and get access to skills webinars which they say they will make.
Or you can hang out at WB or r/ultralight and get all that for free.
And until very recently, if you registered on WB you could have your email address exposed and harvested. The upside of this sloppy site administration is that registered WB users got AT melodrama spam about stalkers, identity theft, and illicit love affairs among AT celebrities. All this - completely free of charge. BPL would probably charge extra for that.
My real question is whether or not cuben fiber fabric is going to stay stable in price or might come down....
I'd suggest if you want a CF tarp made for you, buying now is as good a time to buy as any: Any drop in the cost of materials will certainly be offset by rising labor costs.
If you are looking to source CF to make your own tarp, the price of materials might come down eventually but, how long are you willing to wait?
It is difficult to justify the price of CF products. Much of what you get for the cost is the emotional benefit associated with the purchase rather than any significant difference weight or performance. Rather than trying to justify the cost, think of it as an unjustifiable luxury and treat yourself.
Good Luck
I'd suggest if you want a CF tarp made for you, buying now is as good a time to buy as any: Any drop in the cost of materials will certainly be offset by rising labor costs.
If you are looking to source CF to make your own tarp, the price of materials might come down eventually but, how long are you willing to wait?
It is difficult to justify the price of CF products. Much of what you get for the cost is the emotional benefit associated with the purchase rather than any significant difference weight or performance. Rather than trying to justify the cost, think of it as an unjustifiable luxury and treat yourself.
Good Luck
Well said. Well said.
I think that cuben fiber, in certain applications, definitely provides value and can make sense. In my opinion, using cuben for shelters is a superior choice not only due to weight but because the sagging effect when wet that many shelters of other materials suffer from isn't a problem with cuben. Not having to get out of my tent on a wet night to retension guy lines is very nice. The only times I've had to get out to redo guy lines was due to snow load on the shelter which isn't even designed to hold significant snow but did a good job anyway.
Also durability is very good as a shelter. I've had my hexamid twin for five years and I've lost track of the nights spent in it but it has to be well over 150-175. It's shown some age and wear at the spot where the trekking pole supports it but is still fully functional. Material seems paper thing but is strong and durable. Amortized over so many nights, I don't mind having spent the $525 or so for the shelter back in 2013 and I'll replace it with another cuben shelter again when I have to, but it'll have to be something other than the twin which is no longer offered.
In the short term it will probably stay around the same price. Long term it might come down. There is a lot of research going on with DCF — ballistics applications to protect against IEDs, Dyneema carbon fiber materials for race cars, new variants for aviation/space applications. The more uses found for DCF the more is made the lower the price. Supply and demand.
Geek aside, if you want a DCF tarp and can afford it buy it. Or wait for the off season holiday discounts. Some of those are pretty good deals.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProAnd look at the end users of these kinds of products and who will be paying for them. That should tell you right there that the prices won't come down. These are high end buyers who don't much care if they are getting a bargain. Prices will come down when Walmart starts selling cheap knockoffs of the name brand products and millions of them are being produced. I'd bet 95% of all hikers and backpackers don't even know what cuben fiber is.
Geek aside, if you want a DCF tarp and can afford it buy it. Or wait for the off season holiday discounts. Some of those are pretty good deals.
zPacks was offering $100 off orders of $1,000 or more last year which is about as good of a discount as we'll ever see, I think. I'm hoping my Hexamid lasts me through November. If they repeat this Black Friday promotion, I will swallow hard and order a new tent and some other things I've been looking at for a very long time.
Hatchet_1697
03-18-2018, 11:40
It’s a personal call. Backpacking is my hobby, and for me, DCF is worth it. My DCF tarp/backpack will last years, doesn’t sag or hold water when wet, is easy to repair, and most importantly my knees like the weight of them. :) I wish I had saved up and went straight for DCF, but like a lot of folks I went the route of buying silnylon then upgrading. Now that has become my guest gear.
You could make your own, if you have the skills, it’s a lot cheaper.
https://ripstopbytheroll.com/search?q=dcf
https://www.yamamountaingear.com/diy/
Hummingbird Hammocks (great products btw) follows the “open source” model which I really respect them for. They make all their designs available. Here’s is the tarps link.
https://github.com/HummingbirdHammocks/rain-tarps
Good luck. [emoji256]
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Just Bill
03-19-2018, 13:26
Maybe he'd be more inclined to believe it if it came from you.
I mean, I've already poisoned the waters by insisting that 24 oz is lighter than 29.6oz, and that 29.6oz is not a SUL pack.
Now, I actually don't know precisely what NanoFly™ 210D Nylon X 200D UHMWPE is, but I'd bet a chunk o' change that it is very similar to what MLD calls Dyneema X and Zpacks calls Dyneema Gridstop. I think we all know what ripstop silnylon is. Well most of us, anyway.
As you know, these don't even faintly resemble DCF.
Yar... these are simply 'off label' or house brand versions of those fabrics used by Osprey. Exact same stuff- dyneema fiber for the ripstop grid over a heavy nylon weave.
I don't think Zpacks has anything to fear from Osprey at the moment. Though Gossamer Gear, ULA and a few others may find some losses from the newest Osprey Levity series... Osprey is already the most popular pack by far... improving the offerings on the sub-2lb end will only help that edge. People like easy and in person. Going to a store and picking up a pack off the shelf is still popular.
If anything... fabrics like Membrane Sil-poly pushing .93 oz finished weights and others pushing .7 oz are getting competitive for shelters.
If concerned on price... back to the latest woven fabrics.
If competing with tarps... there are some high end UL fabrics popping up.
If competing for packs... Dyneema X stop and flavors of it are long strong in the market, and X-pac (dimension polyant) is rising. Pack makers, including Z-packs seem to be pushing composite fabrics.
So in theory Cuben fiber has competition- but not direct competition.
The regular supply issues and problems with it scare off bigger boys. Ultimate direction used it, then dropped it.
Unlike other fabrics... you can't just slot it into a production order and sew it up. You have to have the workforce for it.
DCF... why would it go anywhere or come down? The company who used to produce it was bought by the company that makes some of the raw material... but the market is established and the manufacturing process is not easy.
Unless something really dramatic happened it's not really getting any faster to make. I doubt there is enough marketshare or volume to make the investment to come up with some kind of assembly line or mill.
Even if it was half the cost, it doesn't make a lot of sense to use it for a big boy... which is what the payoff would have to be for DCF's parent company to try to up production.
Given the costs of Amsteel and other Dyneema rope I can't imagine it's the dyneema thread that was the issue for Cuben Tech or even a critical component of pricing. So it's not like suddenly it all crashes down because one level of markup was cut on the thread used.
I don't use Cuben personally... it never quite made sense to me. I made some stuff sacks and test pieces but that was the extent of my tinkering.
As mentioned... when you seem to need .8 or 1.0 there were other options for me.
Wholesale price is around $25/yard... Probably better for somebody like Zpacks. For the most part he can build a tarp cheaper than I could buy one and make it myself. And I couldn't compete with Joe commercially in any shape or sense so I gave up on Cuben a long time ago in my designs.
I actually just ordered a zpacks tarp to try for my customers as it's not worth even playing with it IMO at this point. But CF does make sense for hammock tarps and a .51 can be an advantage for a SUL rig.
All pure speculation, Joe Valesko probably knows the most.
Which leads right back to him... if you want cuben... I'd just buy it from him.
He has to be the biggest buyer by far and seems to enjoy stable pricing and steady supply. Even when everyone was blacked out of the market for supply issues he still had material.
cmoulder
03-19-2018, 15:42
I love that 'inside baseball'!
I'm just some beer-swilling schlub in the bleachers. :D
Just Bill
03-19-2018, 17:53
I love that 'inside baseball'!
I'm just some beer-swilling schlub in the bleachers. :D
LOL, teaching me a new term.
I was mainly jumping in to back you up. Yer fellow bleacher bum seemed to have drank a few too many.
Dyneema X, Dyneema gridstop... whatever you want to call it has been the standard pack fabric for a decade or more. Barely in the same sport and for sure not in the same ballpark as Cuben Fiber.
Whatever marketing genius came up with Dyneema Composite Fiber is likely to blame though...
Besides getting it mixed up with other brand name fabrics they already had out... it seems the second the press release was issued everyone just abbreviated to DCF or continued to use Cuben Fiber as the OP did.
So not much benefit for anyone in shoving the DYNEEMA name.
Hell, doesn't take inside knowledge either to assume that a monopoly rarely if ever equates to price drops.
Especially when you have a big marketing campaign to rename your weirdly named product to an even weirder name. :D
Just Bill
03-19-2018, 17:58
http://www.dsm.com/products/dyneema/en_GB/applications/sports-equipment.html
Zpacks and Yama make the list of sporting goods partners.
That's why the gate was left open Cmoulder. Hoping the Rottweiler would show up. :D
I could see DCF prices rise possibly substantially for outdoor products if the US gets into another major ground conflict, martial law is enacted, etc. particularly a rekindling of middle eastern conflagration. Dyneema competes with kevlar, for a range of military apps. Supply side demand and production abilities would be prioritized for military, paramilitary, and LE use.
cmoulder
03-19-2018, 18:49
Heck, just ground those Americas Cup catamarans and we'd be all set. :sun
Fortunately I'm flush with enough DCF gear for the foreseeable future.
Violent Green
03-19-2018, 23:11
The price isn't going down anytime soon. The demand for dyneema is huge and the supply is tight. Can't make cuben without dyneema.
cmoulder
03-20-2018, 08:13
Dyneema X, Dyneema gridstop... whatever you want to call it has been the standard pack fabric for a decade or more. Barely in the same sport and for sure not in the same ballpark as Cuben Fiber.
Osprey engages in the old marketing trick of trademarking their "NanoFly" (!!) name for the same stuff to make it seem NEW!
If they want to impress me they're going to have to whip out a shiny, new utility patent. Which of course they don't have.
Osprey engages in the old marketing trick of trademarking their "NanoFly" (!!) name for the same stuff to make it seem NEW!
If they want to impress me they're going to have to whip out a shiny, new utility patent. Which of course they don't have.
https://sectionhiker.com/osprey-levity-ultralight-backpack-review-60l-and-45l/
I know you are drooling over this super ultralight pack . ;0)
thom
cmoulder
03-20-2018, 13:27
https://sectionhiker.com/osprey-levity-ultralight-backpack-review-60l-and-45l/
I know you are drooling over this super ultralight pack . ;0)
thom
IT'S NOT SUPERULTRA..... uhh
OK, I see what you did there. :D