View Full Version : Trailrunners, Darn Tough, Gore-Tex is bad, snow on the AT
Videos of the AT this year showed lots of snow on the ground and low temps. How do people hike through this all day in their trail runners and not get frost bit? Am I missing something here?
fiddlehead
03-29-2018, 08:36
Keep moving.
Feet warm back up.
Bigger problem is cold water and swamps and soaking wet feet.
I've hiked all day in trail runners in snow and was fine.
Just have dry socks to put on when you climb in your tent at night.
I'll try to post a picture (if I can find it) of a hike I did in the Himalaya a few years ago in trail runners.
42396
Here it is. Heading up Dhumpus peak, near Dhalagiri. (sp?)
Agreed. A few years ago I was up on Mount Rogers in the winter and constantly breaking trail through snow and ice with frequent pools of water underneath. Temperature was in the 20's-30's during the day. No problems with feet in mesh trail runners, just wrang out the socks at night and kept them near enough to keep them from freezing while I slept.
Greenlight
03-29-2018, 12:51
Videos of the AT this year showed lots of snow on the ground and low temps. How do people hike through this all day in their trail runners and not get frost bit? Am I missing something here?
Foot maintenance, wool socks, gaiters, and body heat regulation. It isn’t hard to keep warm while hiking if you have the right gear and knowledge. Part of that knowledge is knowing when to get off trail when the conditions deteriorate.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
MuddyWaters
03-29-2018, 13:07
It's not hard when day temperatures are above freezing especially if they're above about 40. In the 30s, my toes can get numb sometimes if they're wet.
And then there's always bread bags. Or Gore-Tex socks or sealskinz for people that come prepared.
Tipi Walter
03-29-2018, 13:10
I thought of all the AT thruhikers out in March as I was backpacking nearby during March and saw alot of snow and alot of 12F cold mornings. I always carry gtx waterproof full leather boots on my winter trips and never get soaked feet or wet socks with this setup.
There's no sense in compromising your feet and your footwear and socks with wetness every day by having to simply hike thru a couple inches of water or in wet snow on a regular basis---and so I bring my leather ankle high boots. They allow me to wade little streams and keep my smartwool socks dry.
42402
The majority of creek crossings in the Southeast are shallow rockhops with many of the rocks underneath the water. If you use tennis shoes you immediately soak your feet and socks---whereas a good full leather boots prevents this, as in my pic (crossing Brookshire Creek on the Benton MacKaye trail).
Videos of the AT this year showed lots of snow on the ground and low temps. How do people hike through this all day in their trail runners and not get frost bit? Am I missing something here?
Is that rhetorical? If you really are asking a question will you entertain an answer based on how I effectively do it?
There's no sense in compromising your feet and your footwear and socks with wetness every day by having to simply hike thru a couple inches of water or in wet snow on a regular basis...
As an observation, not a put down, I can tell you've never experienced 2000+ mile LD hikes over mixed weather or under changing seasons that involve precipitation, snow, ice, winter, and early/late shoulder seasons.
Tipi Walter
03-29-2018, 14:43
There's no sense in compromising your feet and your footwear and socks with wetness every day by having to simply hike thru a couple inches of water or in wet snow on a regular basis...
As an observation, not a put down, I can tell you've never experienced 2000+ mile LD hikes over mixed weather or under changing seasons that involve precipitation, snow, ice, winter, and early/late shoulder seasons.
Actually, these so-called 2,000 mile LD hikes are done in short section hikes interrupted with frequent town visits and resupplies---and laundry mat visits with dryers to dry socks etc. And overnight zeros in motel rooms. I doubt very few LD backpackers spend 3 weeks out uninterrupted with one food load. With frequent town visits they can afford to compromise their clothing and footwear.
You just gave one possible answer to your question then: "How do people hike through this all day in their trail runners and not get frost bit?"
But it seems you don't want to entertain any other answers just make rhetorical statements of disapproval and intolerance.
I'm making these comments based on open minded observation meaning I'm willing to consider that which I've not yet considered not on having a predetermined judgement or intending contention.
AllDownhillFromHere
03-29-2018, 15:05
Actually, these so-called 2,000 mile LD hikes are done in short section hikes interrupted with frequent town visits and resupplies---and laundry mat visits with dryers to dry socks etc. And overnight zeros in motel rooms. I doubt very few LD backpackers spend 3 weeks out uninterrupted with one food load. With frequent town visits they can afford to compromise their clothing and footwear.
Good way to look at it. I consider a lot of modern LD hiking to be near the "coffin corner" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffin_corner_(aerodynamics) - where you're balancing the minimal amount of gear to get you to the next place of safety. It's just a feeling, based on hiking trips back in the 90s that were more like extended camping trips, where people brought redundant gear, and wore 50lb packs.
Actually they are not compromising, they are optimizing. There is a huge difference between camping without a car and thru hiking 15-20 miles per day. If you want to walk in 2 miles squat for 3weeks with very low or no mileage days, so be it. Thru hiking is different animal, requires different strategies and equipment.
My bad Tipi. I mistakenly thought you started the thread. My comments mixed up two different posters.
Odd Man Out
03-29-2018, 15:22
While not hiking, I wear mesh trail runners and wool Darn Tough socks all winter. I live in West MI where we average 80 inches of snow per year. Never a problem.
Walking through snow for days on end in trail runners has been a miserable experience for me when I have done it. My feet get numb and never thaw out for the duration, even at night, even in my down socks, even in my warm sleeping bag. My left foot had no feeling for several days after spending a week in such conditions on the PCT in May 2015. Additionally, I hurt my foot and didn't realize it because it was numb as I down climbed a steep icy area using my trail runners and trail crampons. It sucked, big time. Since then I have made a point to simply avoid hiking for days in snow. I have Asolo 535s that are excellent for day hikes in snow and keep my feet warm and dry but they would dramatically slow me down on a long distance hike. Still, I'd be sorely tempted to take them if I ever expect such conditions again, as I would when I eventually attempt the PCT as an uninterrupted thru hike again, which I will do at some point.
You still have a pair of 535's? I haven't seen any of those in a long time. Went through three pair of 530's and 535's from about '96 to '2004 or so. Used to love those things.
You still have a pair of 535's? I haven't seen any of those in a long time. Went through three pair of 530's and 535's from about '96 to '2004 or so. Used to love those things.
I actually got my 535s only 4 or 5 years ago. I love the boots for cold weather hikes, but I've only used them for day hiking and even around the city if there's a lot of snow on the ground. I took them to Chicago in December for a few days. Wouldn't want them for a long thru hike but they sure are comfortable and keep my feet dry. They replaced a pair of Asolo 520s (gore tex) that I had for many years and had resoled, but resoling changed the width and made them uncomfortable so I purchased the 535s.
Tipi Walter
03-29-2018, 15:39
I'm making these comments based on open minded observation meaning I'm willing to consider that which I've not yet considered not on having a predetermined judgement or intending contention.
Say what?? You're over-intellectualizing the wet foot debate. My point to the OP is that your feet will stay warmer and dryer in leather boots than in tennis shoes---due to the nature of the Southeast trail and its trail puddles and shallow creek crossings.
But Dogwood comes on and says I have basically no experience that involves precipitation, snow, ice or winter. Weird.
There was a guy who thruhiked the BMT several years ago in tennis shoes and got caught in a wet cold snap and had to bail out to a town to save his feet. Every trail runner shoe-lover should read his entry. See---
http://www.trailjournals.com/journal/entry/121084
Good way to look at it. I consider a lot of modern LD hiking to be near the "coffin corner" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffin_corner_(aerodynamics) - where you're balancing the minimal amount of gear to get you to the next place of safety. It's just a feeling, based on hiking trips back in the 90s that were more like extended camping trips, where people brought redundant gear, and wore 50lb packs.
I agree and see "getting to the next place of safety" more and more of a trend in backpacking nowadays. Nick Gatel on BackpackingLight says something similar when asked what has changed in backpacking in the last several decades. Here's his quote---
"What I think has really changed is most people are unwilling to backpack for 10-14 days without a resupply. They don't mind leaving the wilderness to go into trail towns and get food."
Actually they are not compromising, they are optimizing. There is a huge difference between camping without a car and thru hiking 15-20 miles per day. If you want to walk in 2 miles squat for 3weeks with very low or no mileage days, so be it. Thru hiking is different animal, requires different strategies and equipment.
So a guy in full leather boots can't pull 15 mile days?? And I know of thruhikers who are happy with 5 to 7 mile days and still continue their hike. Does this low number mean they are mere squatters or basecampers and are not therefore genuine??
I actually got my 535s only 4 or 5 years ago. I love the boots for cold weather hikes, but I've only used them for day hiking and even around the city if there's a lot of snow on the ground. I took them to Chicago in December for a few days. Wouldn't want them for a long thru hike but they sure are comfortable and keep my feet dry. They replaced a pair of Asolo 520s (gore tex) that I had for many years and had resoled, but resoling changed the width and made them uncomfortable so I purchased the 535s.
Just realized that they were still in production. I hadn't recognized them because they changed the leather finish at some point over the years. Used to be a very light brown nubuck.
Tipi Walter
03-29-2018, 15:49
I still use Asolo Fugitives for my 3 season backpacking and used to use a pair of 520s for winter camping until they had a quality control issue with the sole, see pic---
42407
This occurred after only a couple years of use. Now I upgraded to Zamberlan boots.
Asolo seems to have had a long history with weird delaminations like that. I had a pair of Globaline Meridian's that did that in the late 90's, and have seen reports of people experiencing it out of the box into the late 2000's. Kind of a strange problem not to be able to quickly solve.
Tipi Walter
03-29-2018, 16:06
Asolo seems to have had a long history with weird delaminations like that. I had a pair of Globaline Meridian's that did that in the late 90's, and have seen reports of people experiencing it out of the box into the late 2000's. Kind of a strange problem not to be able to quickly solve.
I quit using light trail runners (i.e. tennis shoes) years ago but I suppose they too have their quality control problems with delaminations etc etc. Which brings up the question: What's the best trail runner made? Are there custom made trail runners like Limmer????
Not sure on custom. Seems like a way to spend a bunch of money on something that you know won't last forever. Altra had a string of early failures with the Lone Peak's, but I think they resolved that more recently. Caused some real headache for a friend who took a nearly new pair on an ultra and had to practically tape them together a few miles in. I've had good luck with the Cascadias holding together for quite a while. Most of my wear is day to day, though. Never really saw the point in swapping shoes all the time, so my running shoes are my hiking shoes are my office shoes.
So a guy in full leather boots can't pull 15 mile days?? And I know of thruhikers who are happy with 5 to 7 mile days and still continue their hike. Does this low number mean they are mere squatters or basecampers and are not therefore genuine??[/QUOTE]
They can do whatever they want, but the vast majority will find footwear better suited for mid mileage.
My comment is directed to your concept that anything short of spending 3 weeks in a very, very familiar area with 20 jars of peanut butter is not “real” backpacking. The reality is much different for most and entirely different for a thru hiker. Two of your three sleeping pads would be in a hiker’s box within the first 20 miles.
"But Dogwood comes on and says I have basically no experience that involves precipitation, snow, ice or winter. Weird."
Yes it is weird that you've said that.:confused: That is not what I said, not what I intended, and you know it ignoring it to intentionally pick a fight. You certainly know I've viewed your winter reports. You can call what you're doing what you want - over intellectualizing, under intellectualizing, distortion, mis-perception, incorrect interpretation, or whatever, but that is not what was said or intended by my comments.
Here is what you said: "There's no sense in compromising your feet and your footwear and socks with wetness every day by having to simply hike thru a couple inches of water or in wet snow on a regular basis..."
Here is what I said in reply: As an observation, not a put down, I can tell you've never experienced 2000+ mile LD hikes over mixed weather or under changing seasons that involve precipitation, snow, ice, winter, and early/late shoulder seasons.
I stand by what I said.
Tipi, in complete frankness, although I so enjoy your detailed(intellectualized?) reports, what you've experienced, what you do in Nature, and respect you HYOH, you repeatedly display hostility, criticism, disrespect, and intolerance towards thru hikers, UL hikers, and often to those that somehow take a different approach when backpacking.
AllDownhillFromHere
03-29-2018, 17:00
Actually they are not compromising, they are optimizing. There is a huge difference between camping without a car and thru hiking 15-20 miles per day. If you want to walk in 2 miles squat for 3weeks with very low or no mileage days, so be it. Thru hiking is different animal, requires different strategies and equipment.
So nobody thru-hiked or did 20+ mile days before trail runners? History would disagree with you.
Getting to the OP's(NC1701) back to the topic of the thread question, "Videos of the AT this year showed lots of snow on the ground and low temps. How do people hike through this all day in their trail runners and not get frost bit? Am I missing something here?" and assertions that one experiences cold wet feet in trail runners here are possible solutions or options of a wider range:
https://backpackinglight.com/wet-cold-feet-when-backpacking-gear/?utm_source=drip&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=New%3A+Synthetic+Quilts%2C+Packrafts% 2C+Forum+News%2C+Guide+Training%2C+Membership+Spec ials%2C+and+Gear+Deals%21
A good article by Ryan Jordan who hikes/backpacks in all four seasons in the upper mid west based out of Montana.
http://www.eathomas.com/2017/05/03/tips-to-keeping-feet-happy-in-the-snow/
Another good article relevant to staying on topic to the thread. What Liz Thomas "Snorkel" does is what I typically do in the conditions and under the scenario depicted by the OP. Although, adding to what Liz does, I do like to carry different prs of socks with different traits under the OP's scenario, usually an insulated WP sock and merino socks switching out as conditions change as they tend to on the southern AT during Feb through April. Sometimes I use both socks at once and at other times one pr of socks. Gear up taking the approach that works for your hikes. ;)
One thing that should be emphasized in these article's options or alternatives is that they can fit effectively into different hiking and backpacking approaches whether one is an ULer, LD or day hiker, bigger daily mileage, 2 mile a day hikers, camper more than hiker, or hiker more than a camper. There is no need for any backpacking approach absolutism. Tolerance. HYOH. Use your own shoe system - UYOSS
There really is no requirement of absolutely having cold wet feet using trail runners. And, should feet get wet Andrew Skurka offers some solid well borne out advice: https://andrewskurka.com/2012/minimizing-the-effects-and-aftermath-of-wet-feet/
The info is there. Instead of all this BS, do some research and avail yourself. If the high leather boots under the given scenario work for you as you approach camping, hiking, backpacking, and being in the outdoors, great. BUT, don't push intolerance by saying your way as the ONLY way!
So nobody thru-hiked or did 20+ mile days before trail runners? History would disagree with you.
Hosh can defend and further clarify himself but again that's not what he said.
So nobody thru-hiked or did 20+ mile days before trail runners? History would disagree with you.
You bet, are those dinosaur tracks behind you or in front of you?
"My point to the OP is that your feet will stay warmer and dryer in leather boots than in tennis shoes---due to the nature of the Southeast trail and its trail puddles and shallow creek crossings."
Not necessarily!
Please don't equate trail runners as tennis shoes. I own both and they are not the same!
rocketsocks
03-29-2018, 17:25
Please use your blinker, I almost Slamed ya! :D
Tipi Walter
03-29-2018, 18:17
Tipi, in complete frankness, although I so enjoy your detailed(intellectualized?) reports, what you've experienced, what you do in Nature, and respect you HYOH, you repeatedly display hostility, criticism, disrespect, and intolerance towards thru hikers, UL hikers, and often to those that somehow take a different approach when backpacking.
This is certainly true in my trail journals and written trip reports---I do criticize some aspects of UL backpacking and thruhiking, as is my wont in my journals since they're an expression of my opinion---but I have not expressed any hostility or disrespect or intolerance in this thread. Your comment above reflects how you feel toward my trip reports but you transfer such dislike into this thread.
My first post said---
I thought of all the AT thruhikers out in March as I was backpacking nearby during March and saw alot of snow and alot of 12F cold mornings. I always carry gtx waterproof full leather boots on my winter trips and never get soaked feet or wet socks with this setup.
There's no sense in compromising your feet and your footwear and socks with wetness every day by having to simply hike thru a couple inches of water or in wet snow on a regular basis---and so I bring my leather ankle high boots. They allow me to wade little streams and keep my smartwool socks dry.
https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42402&d=1496156547&thumb=1 (https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42402&d=1522343327)
The majority of creek crossings in the Southeast are shallow rockhops with many of the rocks underneath the water. If you use tennis shoes you immediately soak your feet and socks---whereas a good full leather boots prevents this, as in my pic (crossing Brookshire Creek on the Benton MacKaye trail).
Where's the intolerance and hostility???? I expressed my opinion about what works for me.
My second post said---
Actually, these so-called 2,000 mile LD hikes are done in short section hikes interrupted with frequent town visits and resupplies---and laundry mat visits with dryers to dry socks etc. And overnight zeros in motel rooms. I doubt very few LD backpackers spend 3 weeks out uninterrupted with one food load. With frequent town visits they can afford to compromise their clothing and footwear.
So where's the hostility?? Don't most LD thruhikers make frequent town resupplies?? Or is this something I made up?
On the other hand, this is the comment from Dogwood that in my opinion started the "hostility" and disrespect---
As an observation, not a put down, I can tell you've never experienced 2000+ mile LD hikes over mixed weather or under changing seasons that involve precipitation, snow, ice, winter, and early/late shoulder seasons.
How in the world would you know where and how I was backpacking in 1980 or 1984 or 1989 etc? What if I did a 500 mile hike in the summer of 1984 or 1988? Does this not qualify because it's not the magic 2,000 mile number? What if I've done frequent backpacking trips for months at a time involving precipitation, snow, ice, winter etc? Not genuine since I didn't get the patch?? Unsure of your intent. And you've never gone on any of my trips.
Another Kevin
03-29-2018, 18:20
Observations from my own hiking - which is neither Tipi Walter's three-week expeditions nor a thru-hike of a long trail, but is rather varied: I own a pair of full leather boots, which I wear around town sometimes, or at job sites where I need the foot protection. At this point, they've virtually been crowded out of my hiking.
In three seasons, I wear trail runners. At the moment, I favor New Balance MT610, because they fit my feet and orthoses. They very likely won't fit your feet, so substitute a brand that does. I get maybe 5-600 miles out of a pair, no more. (I wear them a lot around town, and walk at least a few miles with a pack every day, so that means I'm replacing them a couple or thee times a year.)
I can wear trail runners down into the 'shoulder season' - when there may be a little snow or sleet and a lot of mud, but won't be deep snow or deep cold. In wet weather, I wear gaiters with them, and they may be over-the-calf gaiters if I'm expecting bad mud or dense brush.
Yeah, my socks get wet. Darn Toughs (or, I suppose, other wool socks, but Darn Tough are what I own) stay warm when they're wet. I treat my feet with Gurney Goo so that my skin will be water-repellent, and in bad mud, I try to at least rinse out the socks, if not wash them with Dr Bronners, at least a couple of times a day, because they will accumulate grit and trash my feet otherwise.
Once the snow is over the tops of my shoes, it's usually getting cold enough that I want my pac boots. Also, I don't trust snowshoe and crampon bindings with trail runners. I find I'm OK with trail runners and Hillsounds or Microspikes in the intermediate conditions.
About the only time that I'll wear the full leather boots is if I hit one of those freak days where the temperatures hit the 60's but there's still a lot of ice about. Trail runners won't support my crampon bindings, and pac boots are just too damned hot in those conditions.
And I use the usual tricks with bread bags (which for most purposes go between liners and socks, so that you don't sweat out your insulation in the pac boots).
TW will no doubt say that since 5-6 days is the longest food carry that I usually attempt, I have no clue what this stuff is about. Dogwood will then tell TW that he has no experience with a Big Hike on a long trail, and I'll ignore them both and go back to clueless weekending and short-sectioning.
Tipi Walter
03-29-2018, 18:40
In three seasons, I wear trail runners.
Yeah, my socks get wet.
Once the snow is over the tops of my shoes, it's usually getting cold enough that I want my pac boots.
TW will no doubt say that since 5-6 days is the longest food carry that I usually attempt, I have no clue what this stuff is about.
I highlighted your important points. The reason I recommend boots is I don't want to have wet socks as much as I will get with more porous shoes. Simple. And isn't this discussion all about winter backpacking according to the OP? He did mention snow on the AT.
And so my full leather boot recommendation really hits home in winter conditions (as you say) because in effect my Zamberlan boots are pac boots . . . except pac boots are clunky and difficult to walk in for long distances. (I know, I spent two years backpacking in Sorel Caribous from 1982-1983). Like a pack boot my Z's are submersible but much easier to hike in.
Regarding your last blurb---I never said thruhikers have no clue what this stuff is about. I ONLY said that thruhikers resupply more often and have more access to laundry mats to dry their wet socks in the winter, if needed. And this fact allows them to use trail runners for backpacking in the winter---which is a shoe that offers less protection (and tread) than a leather boot (in the winter!)
I been through about every kind of boot through the years but have been using trail runners almost exclusively for a good while now. There are so many angles to all of this. So, if one was to go out in the snow for multiple days, to include water, what is the best setup for trail runners? I have always used a wool sock with a synthetic liner. Of course cold feet were involved. Do the waterproof socks help for more than a day? To me, it's just embrace the conditions at hand, but maybe there is some type of silver bullet combination with trail runners. I've also had ice cold feet in leather boots more times than I can count. However, I've never had Gortex leather boots. Those would be closer to real mountaineering boots in my opinion. However, big miles would be hard to come by in those. Also, didn't Grandma Gatewood wear trail runners? Keds tennis shoes. Those would have been top of the line in her day.
Puddlefish
03-29-2018, 19:16
My highest mileage day ever was through three inches of slush and flooded trails in the Smokies. It was flat out refreshing for my aching feet.
I expect to get wet feet, I put body glide on the soles of my feet in the morning, wear wool socks, and my shoes are trail runner types that dry off overnight, I use an alcohol pad to remove any remaining body glide, and encourage evaporation once I'm in the tent. Two pairs of wool socks, rotating, one pair of tent socks that always stay dry. The hiking socks are occasionally damp in the morning. No big deal.
Your feet will get far colder with winter boots and heavy socks when you're just standing at the bus stop.
This is an AT forum, and on the AT it's easy to get off the trail at least once a week if you want to find a toast warm clothes dryer, but it's hardly necessary, and nothing to be ashamed of if you choose to.
[QUOTE=Puddlefish;2202467]My highest mileage day over was through three inches of slush and flooded trails in the Smokies. It was flat out refreshing for my aching feet.
There is nothing like breaking fresh snow on the Smokies ridgeline! The me, that is the best!
Tipi Walter
03-29-2018, 19:27
I think the silver bullet solution with trail runners in the winter is to use some sort of VBL system thereby allowing the shoe to get soaked but the sock and/or foot remains dry . . . and warm. Or warmer. Some backpackers use a two sock system or one sock against the skin and the VBL layer over this sock.
Back in April 2015 I pulled an 18 day section hike on the BMT with my friend Willow who was pulling a complete thruhike of the trail. It was a very wet and rainy and cold April!
Even though her socks stayed damp for the time we were together, she hated stepping in long trail puddles and getting completely soaked again whereby she felt she needed to wring out her socks. There was therefore alot of hopping and jumping about to avoid water holes and especially at small creek crossings.
My Asolo Fugitive gtx boots also eventually got soaked but not from the crossings and puddles but from the rain water dripping down my legs, inevitable with any kind of boot unless you don't hike in the rain and pull tent zero days (which is something I often do in tough winter rainstorms). Here's a pic of Willow---and her shoes---
42410
There's one more factor regarding trail runners for backpacking and something I've noticed with backpackers using them---they tend to slide more in the mud on steep trails. For me a big factor in choosing footwear for backpacking is the tread on the shoe/boot. The deeper the lug sole, the less you will slip and slide. Compare these two---
https://www.google.com/search?q=trail+runner+treads&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjg5paZ1pLaAhUQi6wKHbUaCUQQ_AUICygC&biw=1536&bih=732#imgrc=_
https://www.google.com/search?q=lug+boot+tread&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_8cvB1pLaAhUScq0KHWh2DvEQ_AUICigB&biw=1536&bih=732#imgrc=WeroGJFjQSNgsM:
(https://www.google.com/search?q=lug+boot+tread&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_8cvB1pLaAhUScq0KHWh2DvEQ_AUICigB&biw=1536&bih=732#imgrc=WeroGJFjQSNgsM:)
Tipi Walter
03-29-2018, 19:38
[QUOTE=Puddlefish;2202467]My highest mileage day over was through three inches of slush and flooded trails in the Smokies. It was flat out refreshing for my aching feet.
There is nothing like breaking fresh snow on the Smokies ridgeline! The me, that is the best!
Just don't do it in shorts! I pulled a hellish ridgeline travail back in March 2010 when we got 3 feet of snow on a ridgeline below the Smokies park and it took me 3 hours to hike 1 mile on top of the 5,000 foot ridge. Going up the ridge was exhausting and going down the rock faces of the ridge was more of a swimming event---fling yourself down and swim upright. Most backpackers don't carry snowshoes in the Southeast---and I sure didn't.
Ice crystals abraded my left calf badly and it ended up looking like road rash from a bicycle wreck---
42411
[QUOTE=Tipi Walter;2202473]I think the silver bullet solution with trail runners in the winter is to use some sort of VBL system thereby allowing the shoe to get soaked but the sock and/or foot remains dry . . . and warm. Or warmer. Some backpackers use a two sock system or one sock against the skin and the VBL layer over this sock.
There's one more factor regarding trail runners for backpacking and something I've noticed with backpackers using them---they tend to slide more in the mud on steep trails. For me a big factor in choosing footwear for backpacking is the tread on the shoe/boot. The deeper the lug sole, the less you will slip and slide. Compare these two---
To my knowledge, the VBL system you noted is the best option. I have been experimenting with trail runners a lot lately in mud, and you are correct, you give up a lot of traction with the lightweight runners in most cases. I have noticed with trail runners is that you give up a lot of toe protection with rock kicks, etc as compared to boots. I have always dreamed I could custom design shoes and have them instantly made. Try them out and then have them updated again and again. So many trail runners really lack in toe protection. Many are race shoes. To me, I would like to pick up a little weight in the trail runners for a little more protection.
Puddlefish
03-29-2018, 19:41
I think the silver bullet solution with trail runners in the winter is to use some sort of VBL system thereby allowing the shoe to get soaked but the sock and/or foot remains dry . . . and warm. Or warmer. Some backpackers use a two sock system or one sock against the skin and the VBL layer over this sock.
Back in April 2015 I pulled an 18 day section hike on the BMT with my friend Willow who was pulling a complete thruhike of the trail. It was a very wet and rainy and cold April!
Even though her socks stayed damp for the time we were together, she hated stepping in long trail puddles and getting completely soaked again whereby she felt she needed to wring out her socks. There was therefore alot of hopping and jumping about to avoid water holes and especially at small creek crossings.
My Asolo Fugitive gtx boots also eventually got soaked but not from the crossings and puddles but from the rain water dripping down my legs, inevitable with any kind of boot unless you don't hike in the rain and pull tent zero days (which is something I often do in tough winter rainstorms). Here's a pic of Willow---and her shoes---
42410
There's one more factor regarding trail runners for backpacking and something I've noticed with backpackers using them---they tend to slide more in the mud on steep trails. For me a big factor in choosing footwear for backpacking is the tread on the shoe/boot. The deeper the lug sole, the less you will slip and slide. Compare these two---
https://www.google.com/search?q=trail+runner+treads&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjg5paZ1pLaAhUQi6wKHbUaCUQQ_AUICygC&biw=1536&bih=732#imgrc=_
https://www.google.com/search?q=lug+boot+tread&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_8cvB1pLaAhUScq0KHWh2DvEQ_AUICigB&biw=1536&bih=732#imgrc=WeroGJFjQSNgsM:
(https://www.google.com/search?q=lug+boot+tread&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_8cvB1pLaAhUScq0KHWh2DvEQ_AUICigB&biw=1536&bih=732#imgrc=WeroGJFjQSNgsM:)
Probably why my username is Puddlefish. I go right for the water in the middle of the trail. It's far safer for me. The edges of puddles are usually sloped, and I'm more likely to get off balance and slip in the thin mud. This strategy only failed me once, when I went nearly knee deep into the mud on some trail through a field along the TN/NC border. Nearly lost a shoe!
Even stepping in streams, I've never felt the need to wring out my socks, they just squish out 90% of the water within a mile, which is pretty much the same dampness you get from sweating feet.
This is certainly true in my trail journals and written trip reports---I do criticize some aspects of UL backpacking and thruhiking, as is my wont in my journals since they're an expression of my opinion---but I have not expressed any hostility or disrespect or intolerance in this thread. Your comment above reflects how you feel toward my trip reports but you transfer such dislike into this thread.
My first post said---
I thought of all the AT thruhikers out in March as I was backpacking nearby during March and saw alot of snow and alot of 12F cold mornings. I always carry gtx waterproof full leather boots on my winter trips and never get soaked feet or wet socks with this setup.
There's no sense in compromising your feet and your footwear and socks with wetness every day by having to simply hike thru a couple inches of water or in wet snow on a regular basis---and so I bring my leather ankle high boots. They allow me to wade little streams and keep my smartwool socks dry.
https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42402&d=1496156547&thumb=1 (https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42402&d=1522343327)
The majority of creek crossings in the Southeast are shallow rockhops with many of the rocks underneath the water. If you use tennis shoes you immediately soak your feet and socks---whereas a good full leather boots prevents this, as in my pic (crossing Brookshire Creek on the Benton MacKaye trail).
Where's the intolerance and hostility???? I expressed my opinion about what works for me.
My second post said---
Actually, these so-called 2,000 mile LD hikes are done in short section hikes interrupted with frequent town visits and resupplies---and laundry mat visits with dryers to dry socks etc. And overnight zeros in motel rooms. I doubt very few LD backpackers spend 3 weeks out uninterrupted with one food load. With frequent town visits they can afford to compromise their clothing and footwear.
So where's the hostility?? Don't most LD thruhikers make frequent town resupplies?? Or is this something I made up?
On the other hand, this is the comment from Dogwood that in my opinion started the "hostility" and disrespect---
As an observation, not a put down, I can tell you've never experienced 2000+ mile LD hikes over mixed weather or under changing seasons that involve precipitation, snow, ice, winter, and early/late shoulder seasons.
How in the world would you know where and how I was backpacking in 1980 or 1984 or 1989 etc? What if I did a 500 mile hike in the summer of 1984 or 1988? Does this not qualify because it's not the magic 2,000 mile number? What if I've done frequent backpacking trips for months at a time involving precipitation, snow, ice, winter etc? Not genuine since I didn't get the patch?? Unsure of your intent. And you've never gone on any of my trips.
Walter Mitty is back in the building!
Tipi Walter
03-29-2018, 19:49
To Puddlefish---But you must admit that sometimes it's so cold you do not want to hike in wet socks. Or let me ask you this---What have you done when you wake up at 0F and need to start out in frozen shoes with wet stiff socks?? (Or damp).
I think I know what you'll say: It's hell. True enough. Some full leather boots can freeze solid like a brick. So can fabric/leather trail runners. Cramming cold feet in these things is never fun.
Tipi Walter
03-29-2018, 19:54
Walter Mitty is back in the building!
And don't forget when I played clarinet in the USAF Band and we performed a concert for Lyndon Johnson!!
42412
Your beloved Uncle Fungus on left . . . in the Texas heat.
Puddlefish
03-29-2018, 20:06
To Puddlefish---But you must admit that sometimes it's so cold you do not want to hike in wet socks. Or let me ask you this---What have you done when you wake up at 0F and need to start out in frozen shoes with wet stiff socks?? (Or damp).
I think I know what you'll say: It's hell. True enough. Some full leather boots can freeze solid like a brick. So can fabric/leather trail runners. Cramming cold feet in these things is never fun.
I'm not a winter hiker. I don't have the gear for anything more than a dayhike in the winter. It's an entirely different sport. Pertinent to this thread, I don't believe the temperature in recent weeks has been remotely close to zero, at least not on the southern section of the AT where most people are hiking currently.
My only good winter activity story involve -10 degree temps, high winds, ski boots, and a broken chair lift near the top of Cannon mountain.
Tipi, concerning your photo of the Asola Boots delaminating, obviously those boost have seen a lot of water. It seems that any glued shoe has this issue with long-term water exposure. I have only used my Asolo's in desert conditions and have not had this issue. Once again, where is the silver bullet?
Tipi, much of what you say regarding LD hiking, UL, gear, and backpacking approaches arrives out of a good-natured personality. Many laughs can be enjoyed when we choose not to be offended or be put on the defensive. I simcerely hope we can see past those choices. How you sometimes say it pokes at some reality. It may not always reflect everyone's reality though.
If you have avos and I some Vegan Thai Curry we could share laughs warming up our feet around a campfire. If I'm ever in the Slickrock area in winter I'll be looking for you. Maybe, I'll even have along WP socks and size? "tennis" shoes for you and you can show me the trail work you did.
But keep the anvil out of my UL sight! LOL
Tipi Walter
03-29-2018, 23:09
If you have avos and I some Vegan Thai Curry we could share laughs warming up our feet around a campfire. If I'm ever in the Slickrock area in winter I'll be looking for you. Maybe, I'll even have along WP socks and size? "tennis" shoes for you and you can show me the trail work you did.
But keep the anvil out of my UL sight! LOL
Thai curry sounds pretty good and a few avos couldn't hurt. I'll leave the choice of bringing in a watermelon up to you.
Ah we're not so lost after all. There's hope for us. You can't be all that bad if you lived all those yrs in a Teepee and address nature as Mrs Nature.
If I bring a watermelon it's gonna be one of those UL small volume ice box sized ones.:D
MuddyWaters
03-30-2018, 05:43
To Puddlefish---But you must admit that sometimes it's so cold you do not want to hike in wet socks. Or let me ask you this---What have you done when you wake up at 0F and need to start out in frozen shoes with wet stiff socks?? (Or damp).
I think I know what you'll say: It's hell. True enough. Some full leather boots can freeze solid like a brick. So can fabric/leather trail runners. Cramming cold feet in these things is never fun.
Theres ways to mitigate.
My shoes go under head of my sleep pad to incline it. They have never frozen there in teens.
Shoes and wet clothing can be put inside pack liner and kept in sleeping bag too. Just like fuel and water filters have to be sometimes. No fun to put on, but not frozen stiff. Of course it's nice to wait till the sun comes up and the temperature is above freezing if you can. On ? really cold clear mornings I usually don't get up until the Sun is up. On warm mornings I'm up way before daylight.
To Puddlefish---But you must admit that sometimes it's so cold you do not want to hike in wet socks. Or let me ask you this---What have you done when you wake up at 0F and need to start out in frozen shoes with wet stiff socks?? (Or damp).
I think I know what you'll say: It's hell. True enough. Some full leather boots can freeze solid like a brick. So can fabric/leather trail runners. Cramming cold feet in these things is never fun.
He must not have been using GTX WP full leather boots because back in post #6 it was said, "I always carry gtx waterproof full leather boots on my winter trips and never get soaked feet or wet socks with this setup.*:-?
MuddyWaters
03-30-2018, 08:44
He must not have been using GTX WP full leather boots because back in post #6 it was said, "I always carry gtx waterproof full leather boots on my winter trips and never get soaked feet or wet socks with this setup.*:-?
The waterproof liner doesn't prevent the leather from getting waterlogged and freezing solid. Still have to oil the leather, seal the stitching Etc to prevent that. But then the boot doesn't breathe does it? And wet's out for me inside due to sweat.
PatmanTN
03-30-2018, 08:56
I rely on custom inserts which make boot fitting so difficult as to be nearly impossible. So I've been using low top shoes of some sort for a long time. When I hike in deep snow I get wet socks no matter what I do. GTX , no GTX, gaiters, no gaiters, VBL liners, breadbags, I can't seem to really stop it from happening. In the Weminuche last year (where I spent a couple days moving slowly in about a foot of snow while peak bagging), I opted to slowly thaw my frozen socks over my stove each morning rather than trying to dry them in my bag overnight. I prefer not to have stuff in my bag with me in general but will sometimes put my Sawyer filter (and maybe my phone in there in certain conditions ).
Tipi Walter
03-30-2018, 10:44
He must not have been using GTX WP full leather boots because back in post #6 it was said, "I always carry gtx waterproof full leather boots on my winter trips and never get soaked feet or wet socks with this setup.*:-?
It's mostly true nowadays as in an all-day rainstorm I elect to stay in my tent all day and pull a zero and wait for the storm to pass. This does alot to keep my gtx boots dry as no rain water is running down my legs and into my boots. Otherwise the boots keep my socks dry in shallow creek crossings (as in my picture) and in wet snow.
The waterproof liner doesn't prevent the leather from getting waterlogged and freezing solid. Still have to oil the leather, seal the stitching Etc to prevent that. But then the boot doesn't breathe does it? And wet's out for me inside due to sweat.
I use Hydrobloc waterproof treatment for my Zamberlan boots (sold by the company) and thoroughly coat the things before each trip. It causes the surface of the boot to be hydrophobic whereby no water soaks in and therefore the boot does not freeze solid like a brick at 0F. My old Asolo 520 boot leather allowed water to penetrate the leather and they would therefore become bricks on butt cold mornings, even after being treated with whatever boot grease I was using at the time.
Regarding your last comment about everything is wet inside the boot due to sweat, well, this just never happens to me. A totally wet boot weighs considerably more than a dry boot---and so if sweat really caused my boots to get wet I'd be hauling alot more boot weight every day---rain or shine. My feet don't get hot or sweat that much anyway---although I hear some backpackers have the opposite problem.
Now my old Sorel pac boots did cause sweating (and toe rot) because they are rubber and are not designed to breathe. My Zams on the other hand breathe very well despite the waterproof coating. I think it's because they are in a size Wide with ample inside air circulation and most of the heat comes out thru the ankle opening.
I rely on custom inserts which make boot fitting so difficult as to be nearly impossible. So I've been using low top shoes of some sort for a long time. When I hike in deep snow I get wet socks no matter what I do. GTX , no GTX, gaiters, no gaiters, VBL liners, breadbags, I can't seem to really stop it from happening. In the Weminuche last year (where I spent a couple days moving slowly in about a foot of snow while peak bagging), I opted to slowly thaw my frozen socks over my stove each morning rather than trying to dry them in my bag overnight. I prefer not to have stuff in my bag with me in general but will sometimes put my Sawyer filter (and maybe my phone in there in certain conditions ).
I'm like you---I don't allow anything wet or damp inside my down sleeping bag with me because it causes high humidity inside the bag and so the insulation doesn't perform as its peak. Goose down works best when everything is bone dry. I can wear damp things like my t-shirt and silk top baselayer and socks in camp while I'm cooking dinner if I want to body-dry these items.
Alright, let me throw my 2 cents in here:
It ain't a "laundry mat" - it's a "laundromat"! ?
ScareBear
03-30-2018, 13:38
"But Dogwood comes on and says I have basically no experience that involves precipitation, snow, ice or winter. Weird."
Yes it is weird that you've said that.:confused: That is not what I said, not what I intended, and you know it ignoring it to intentionally pick a fight. You certainly know I've viewed your winter reports. You can call what you're doing what you want - over intellectualizing, under intellectualizing, distortion, mis-perception, incorrect interpretation, or whatever, but that is not what was said or intended by my comments.
Here is what you said: "There's no sense in compromising your feet and your footwear and socks with wetness every day by having to simply hike thru a couple inches of water or in wet snow on a regular basis..."
Here is what I said in reply: As an observation, not a put down, I can tell you've never experienced 2000+ mile LD hikes over mixed weather or under changing seasons that involve precipitation, snow, ice, winter, and early/late shoulder seasons.
I stand by what I said.
Tipi, in complete frankness, although I so enjoy your detailed(intellectualized?) reports, what you've experienced, what you do in Nature, and respect you HYOH, you repeatedly display hostility, criticism, disrespect, and intolerance towards thru hikers, UL hikers, and often to those that somehow take a different approach when backpacking.
Anyone who reads a single Tipi trail report knows that he is off on his own HYOH planet that nobody other than him and a few select hermits inhabit. Some of his advice is spot on, most of his examples are hilariously inapplicable to anyone other than himself and those select few hermits.
However, the same can be said for you, Dogwood. I've called you "Dogma" on numerous occasions when your condescending tone and inappropriate hijacking of threads to spread your own version of what must be done to enjoy life, health and the trail is too much to bear.
I myself am guilty of super snark, condescending remarks and intolerance of ignorance, among other things. However, I am not guilty of delivering bad advice, and I can't say that about you or Tipi, to be honest....
HYOH. YMMV. ***GYOTT...
Tipi Walter
03-30-2018, 14:17
[QUOTE=ScareBear;2202562]Anyone who reads a single Tipi trail report knows that he is off on his own HYOH planet
]
For years I thought HYOH meant Hide Your Open Holes---and this explains for the most part my hermit nature.
Blaming Darn Tough socks is unfair. Clearly the OP isn't aware of the wide variety of socks in the Darn Tough catalog.
I think I have 5 distinctly different varieties in my small inventory. The best way to tell them apart is to weigh them.
I do own North Cape and Rohner socks which are my first choice for cold and nasty conditions.
Wayne
saltysack
03-30-2018, 14:40
[QUOTE=ScareBear;2202562]Anyone who reads a single Tipi trail report knows that he is off on his own HYOH planet
]
For years I thought HYOH meant Hide Your Open Holes---and this explains for the most part my hermit nature.
That’s in key west!!!
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[QUOTE=Tipi Walter;2202563]
That’s in key west!!!
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MODERATOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:banana
WAYNE
Even Tipi and myself aren't that full of ourself.
Now Shhh! We're having superfood avocados and Vegan Thai Curry. Unless of course you have an organic ice box sized watermelon for desert and don't go off into a rant of advice about how trekking poles are required.
Is that rhetorical? If you really are asking a question will you entertain an answer based on how I effectively do it?
As an observation, not a put down, I can tell you've never experienced 2000+ mile LD hikes over mixed weather or under changing seasons that involve precipitation, snow, ice, winter, and early/late shoulder seasons.[/QUOTE]
1. I wouldn't ask the question if I knew the answer.
2. Thanks to the other replies who offered opinions and solutions.
3. Nope, never done a 2000+ mile hike.
But my feet have been damn cold & almost frostbitten & I was trying to prevent that if possible.