Kudos to REI for Sustainability

[rickb]

One always has to be wary of greenwashing, but this report of REI’s latest sustainability initiative is encouraging:

Here is a link:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/rei-issues-new-rules-for-suppliers-as-clothing-industry-embraces-green-agenda-2018-04-10

[rickb]

More detail here:

https://www.rei.com/assets/stewardship/sustainability/rei-product-sustainability-standards/live.pdf

[rocketsocks]

They should come out with a line called “Quack Myre” from recycled swamp trash.

[Tundracamper]

I love how these companies preach helping the environment. Then, you walk into these huge stores with air conditioners roaring, lights blaring, sucking up all sorts of electricity. Just think how much gasoline REI uses every day shipping their products across the country. If these little things make them feel better, fine I guess. They don't really practice what they preach.

[randall_mcduberson]

I love how these companies preach helping the environment. Then, you walk into these huge stores with air conditioners roaring, lights blaring, sucking up all sorts of electricity. Just think how much gasoline REI uses every day shipping their products across the country. If these little things make them feel better, fine I guess. They don't really practice what they preach.

You have to keep in mind that they are also a business, and in the end, need to make money and be competitive and attract new customers. If you are worried about the gas they spend on shipping, I think you have unrealistic expectations of what a large business can do. Would you suggest bicycle delivery cross country? I do agree, however, that large buildings could probably utilize solar panels and such in order to minimize use of public electric power supply. But that would be up to the owner of the building, not the company using the space.

[Tundracamper]

You have to keep in mind that they are also a business, and in the end, need to make money and be competitive and attract new customers. If you are worried about the gas they spend on shipping, I think you have unrealistic expectations of what a large business can do. Would you suggest bicycle delivery cross country? I do agree, however, that large buildings could probably utilize solar panels and such in order to minimize use of public electric power supply. But that would be up to the owner of the building, not the company using the space.

That proves my point. They come across as saving the world - so long as it sells product. In the end, not so much really changes. Plus, they have big political slants and aren't shy about voicing those. I don't do business with them any more. But, that's JMHO.

[Just Bill]

More detail here:

https://www.rei.com/assets/stewardship/sustainability/rei-product-sustainability-standards/live.pdf
Thanks Rick

I love how these companies preach helping the environment. Then, you walk into these huge stores with air conditioners roaring, lights blaring, sucking up all sorts of electricity. Just think how much gasoline REI uses every day shipping their products across the country. If these little things make them feel better, fine I guess. They don't really practice what they preach.

Shipping solutions are more Elon Musk... buy a Tesla if that is your concern so he can roll out his electric semi faster.
Ironically mail order is much more environmentally friendly than brick and mortar shopping generally speaking. USPS or your carrier of choice is already driving the route, the impact of adding your package to the route is much lower than you driving to the store in your own vehicle.

Overall, this policy appears to be similar to Patagonia's.
Patagonia was the first to prove that green business is green $$$$.

Some stuff is greenwashing, but in the case of what's been happening is not. By far the sewn goods industry is a polluter on a massive scale, as well as a pretty serious human rights violator. It was relatively quite, but even companies like Wal-Mart have worked with Patagonia to clean up their supply chain.

I just received three rolls of fabric from Ripstop by the Roll for my teeny tiny nobody hammock business.

Those rolls of fabric were bluesign approved.

When once a year I buy a few hundred yards of Primaloft Gold... I was granted access to and encouraged to buy Primaloft Gold Econ series.

I am a NOBODY... with zero purchasing power. I would have zero ability to source these products no matter how desperately I hug a tree, let my yellow mellow, screw in LED's or install solar panels.

When a company like Patagonia uses their market muscle to dictate how the supply chain will operate... it eventually makes no sense for a supplier to have multiple standards.
When a retailer like REI chooses to follow suit and demand that all of their suppliers comply with these standards... eventually there will be zero incentive for any sewn goods shop, fabric mill, or material supplier to not comply.

It means that some ahole nobody like me sewing a few hammocks has no option but to purchase fabric with environmentally friendly manufacturing and insulation with nearly 50% recycled content.
Even if I have zero concern for the environment I have no choice but to comply as they are effectively reshaping the entire market.

What most fail to understand is that all this stuff ends up at the same places. The world is not quite the big place we imagine. I have had products sewn at a facility that Patagonia also hired in Chicago.
My fabric (and nearly all the cottage guys and even most of the big boys) comes from the same mill. So when you MYOG hammock or pack, buy cottage, or buy patagucci... all of it is now shifting to Bluesign approved simply due to the fact that Patagonia shops at that fabric mill too.

This is what those who preach the power of the market, or the power of capitalism speak of. That free markets, not government policy causes change.

This is not greenwashing or feel good policy.

This is hard money with enough spending power to change the entire global supply chain.
Money talks, bull**** walks.

It took a long time for environmental people to sort that out. Business only talks to business. Politicians only talk to lobbyists.
This is not bull**** feel good protests or cheap ads. This is cranky old Yvon and his long shadow in the industry starting to reach out and beat em at their own game with cold hard cash.

If you have to buy stuff- buy it from these folks. You don't even need to vote, protest, or do anything. You don't even have to think or try.
Just consume as requested... they aren't preaching, there are no shareholders to please, no bottom line to protect.

Ironically, unlike many corporations folks support, what they plan to do with it is exactly what they say they will do; make concrete changes on a global scale.
They are taking your money and doing what they want with it.

The good ol American way.

[Just Bill]

That proves my point. They come across as saving the world - so long as it sells product. In the end, not so much really changes. Plus, they have big political slants and aren't shy about voicing those. I don't do business with them any more. But, that's JMHO.
They are changing the world, which isn't free, which does require selling a product. Many bemoan whining crybabies who simply demand action with no participation or nothing to contribute. Other than spending your (post tax) dollars to purchase these goods... none of your tax money is required to implement their agenda. Normally the profits go to lobbyists to remove 'impediments' to capital gains like pesky environmental regulations. In this case they are simply investing the profit into taking care of it themselves; globally.

Nobody respects people who do not 'do for themselves'. Damn right they need to sell stuff and pay their own way. Otherwise they will have zero respect.

As fer political slants... REI's recent boycott of Vista outdoors was a mistake. I'd not suggest throwing out the baby with the bathwater just yet though.
This newfound 'power' the outdoor industry is flexing is bound to have some missteps and that was a big one. One folks involved seem to have understood.

Yvon Choinard is a longtime angler and responsible sportsman.
More and more I find bushcraft or hunting videos pop up involving folks starting to understand that outdoor related goods are valid components in the kit's they assemble. I watched a lengthy review and expert video from a hunting store on the design and features of an Arc'teryx jacket the other day. I talked to Dave Canterbury in a thread on facebook in a hammock forums group. He's been out and participating in group hangs. Things are blending and overlapping rapidly.

More and more responsible gun owners are disenfranchised with the NRA.
Hunting is in decline, bushcraft is on the rise... and the overlap with environmentalists has never been more complete. You can't hunt, fish or shoot if there is not land available. You can't consume anything from land that is destroyed or polluted. Eco-systems in jeopardy will not sustain sportsman.

An overwhelming majority of Americans support responsible gun ownership, environmental protections, and responsible land use and preservation.

If hunters, anglers, shooting sports, bushcrafters, hikers, bikers, birders, campers, RV users and the dozens of other groups were to form a coalition. If we get beyond red or blue... it would be the single largest political party in the country.
Moves like the Vista outdoor ban don't help, but there are many other encouraging signs going on in all these groups. There are some obvious hurdles between conservative america and liberal Seattle based REI. Some large compromises will need to be made on both sides.

My hope is that at some point we will all realize that we enjoy this earth we live on. Most of us are not at either extreme... any of us who claims to have spent time on a trail like the AT should understand that given the chance... nearly anyone of us can sit down around a fire together and find common purpose.

Should that happen then yes... saving the world is exactly how it will play out in my not so humble opinion.
I don't really see any other options truth be told.

[BuckeyeBill]

Just Bill makes points I would have brought up. In today's world PETA (Which I support) would raise H LL about the Pony Express.

[saltysack]

They are changing the world, which isn't free, which does require selling a product. Many bemoan whining crybabies who simply demand action with no participation or nothing to contribute. Other than spending your (post tax) dollars to purchase these goods... none of your tax money is required to implement their agenda. Normally the profits go to lobbyists to remove 'impediments' to capital gains like pesky environmental regulations. In this case they are simply investing the profit into taking care of it themselves; globally.

Nobody respects people who do not 'do for themselves'. Damn right they need to sell stuff and pay their own way. Otherwise they will have zero respect.

As fer political slants... REI's recent boycott of Vista outdoors was a mistake. I'd not suggest throwing out the baby with the bathwater just yet though.
This newfound 'power' the outdoor industry is flexing is bound to have some missteps and that was a big one. One folks involved seem to have understood.

Yvon Choinard is a longtime angler and responsible sportsman.
More and more I find bushcraft or hunting videos pop up involving folks starting to understand that outdoor related goods are valid components in the kit's they assemble. I watched a lengthy review and expert video from a hunting store on the design and features of an Arc'teryx jacket the other day. I talked to Dave Canterbury in a thread on facebook in a hammock forums group. He's been out and participating in group hangs. Things are blending and overlapping rapidly.

More and more responsible gun owners are disenfranchised with the NRA.
Hunting is in decline, bushcraft is on the rise... and the overlap with environmentalists has never been more complete. You can't hunt, fish or shoot if there is not land available. You can't consume anything from land that is destroyed or polluted. Eco-systems in jeopardy will not sustain sportsman.

An overwhelming majority of Americans support responsible gun ownership, environmental protections, and responsible land use and preservation.

If hunters, anglers, shooting sports, bushcrafters, hikers, bikers, birders, campers, RV users and the dozens of other groups were to form a coalition. If we get beyond red or blue... it would be the single largest political party in the country.
Moves like the Vista outdoor ban don't help, but there are many other encouraging signs going on in all these groups. There are some obvious hurdles between conservative america and liberal Seattle based REI. Some large compromises will need to be made on both sides.

My hope is that at some point we will all realize that we enjoy this earth we live on. Most of us are not at either extreme... any of us who claims to have spent time on a trail like the AT should understand that given the chance... nearly anyone of us can sit down around a fire together and find common purpose.

Should that happen then yes... saving the world is exactly how it will play out in my not so humble opinion.
I don't really see any other options truth be told.

WELL SPELLED OUT! Very good points!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Just Bill]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ms-UIbt-js
I can fully understand how these little announcements look like another white paper to placate environmentalists or something for a company to stroke the fragile egos of it's customers to improve the bottom line... a cheap way to take the moral high ground with all fluff and no substance.

Just to clarify a point above...
There are some truly altruistic things that happen 'behind the scenes'.

PrimaLoft partners with various vendors (as do companies like Polartec and many fabric mills) to develop proprietary materials. These materials typically come with some market restrictions and exclusivity period.
Fair enough... as it costs money for R&D that any business would like to capitalize on. Sometimes that investment is truly massive.

I am an authorized sewn goods manufacturer of Primaloft products, but that doesn't make me Patagonia.
For many years Primaloft Gold was an exclusive product. Thermoball (the north face) is still off limits to me, but I can buy the Gold Eco Down blend (thermoball and down basically.)

I have zero access to Plumafill and don't expect to for a good 5-7 years.


I am not privy to any top secret info; but it is very rare for a company to willingly give up any competitive advantage. It would be in character to see a big marketing campaign about Patagonia introducing exclusive insulation in one of the most popular synthetic jackets on the market that went from zero to 55% recycled content. A way to stand out and tug on customers heart strings to sell a jacket.

Woulda been real world results, good marketing, good business, and even a bit of greenwashing if you wanted to be cynical about it. A real win financially that is in line with a company that believes in putting it's money where their mouth is and reaping the profits.

However within 6 months of Patagonia announcing that they were switching the entire line of Primaloft Gold products to the Eco line... everyone in the entire global supply chain down to little ol me could buy it.

No announcement, no BS. Just a huge company eliminating more than half of the virgin material required to produce synthetic insulation FOR EVERY VENDOR ON THE PLANET. This is because they constantly go back to their suppliers to demand that they do better. Because they have been doing these things for decades and proving it works.

I paid absolutely zero for this 'marketing opportunity', and Patagonia makes zero when I build a quilt.
I paid nothing, asked for nothing, did no work or research. Besides this insulation, suddenly I have Bluesign approved fabric showing up at my door now as well.

Simply because a company chose to examine their supply chain and do the right thing.

I also notice that this year the Nano-Puff comes with 100% recycled shell and lining now as well.
Maybe at some point my fabric rolls will be 100% recycled as well.

Never BS a BS'er. I'm a professional bullsharter.
Is there a writer generating copy, a slick video, a nice advertisement... for sure. That's the cost of doing business and attracting consumer's attention.

Look past that though and there is real world, real things and some truly altruistic benefits to the world.
Patagonia made a splash with an ad- 'Don't buy this Jacket'.
I agree with the sentiment.

But when the time comes to buy a piece of gear then I strongly suggest you buy from them.

IF REI can follow that example, a large portion of the industry will be forced to follow Patagonia's lead- globally. There is a potential that little PDF is more powerful than most legislation our government could ever pass.

http://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-nano-puff-jacket/84212.html?dwvar_84212_color=DLMB&cgid=mens-jackets-vests#tile-7=&start=1&sz=24

[rickb]

Just Bill,

Good post.

I was not aware of REI’s boycott of Vista Outdoors.

Really sucks, because I rather liked shopping there and respect their decision to offer products conforming to these new sustainability initiatives.

[Uncle Joe]

The problem is they're boycotting Vista purely because Vista didn't make a statement about the Parkland shooting. There was a good article about the relationship between the hunting industry and conservation and how this could drop a wedge in that. here (https://www.outdoorlife.com/think-before-you-boycott-guns-public-land-and-vista-outdoor#page-2)

You can be for things like sustainability without shutting out people who might disagree with you politically. At least, you used to be able to.

[rocketsocks]

The problem is they're boycotting Vista purely because Vista didn't make a statement about the Parkland shooting. There was a good article about the relationship between the hunting industry and conservation and how this could drop a wedge in that. here (https://www.outdoorlife.com/think-before-you-boycott-guns-public-land-and-vista-outdoor#page-2)

You can be for things like sustainability without shutting out people who might disagree with you politically. At least, you used to be able to.gotta love that very last sentence in the article.

[Just Bill]

Just Bill,

Good post.

I was not aware of REI’s boycott of Vista Outdoors.

Really sucks, because I rather liked shopping there and respect their decision to offer products conforming to these new sustainability initiatives.
https://www.outsideonline.com/2290791/vista-outdoors-boycott-was-doomed-start
https://www.outdoorlife.com/think-before-you-boycott-guns-public-land-and-vista-outdoor

Two decent articles.

As mentioned... baby/bathwater problem still I think. Technically REI only suspended it's orders. They haven't severed ties completely.
Boycott is the wrong word, and with headlines and reactionary media cycles it's an area much more grey than it appears.


Patagonia has been doing this stuff for a LONG time. You need to have a few things explode in your face before you learn.
REI made a passing bandwagon leap that was ill advised but the opportunity to revisit the gut reaction and come out okay is still there.

I still think that all parties will come out better for it and the news cycle has already moved on.
It seems to be more of a media snafu than a real problem. A public relations issue... probably.

Patagonia has a history of carefully reviewing their position, coming up with a plan and implementing it.
Even the 'President stole your land' thing was not the impulsive leap it appeared to be. They are good at what they do, and as a result don't get burned.

REI probably lost some customers and hopefully will learn from getting emotional.
It's okay to get political, but much easier to do so when coming from a decades old company still owned by an individual with deep and steady convictions.

I think what it might highlight... is how many 'Brands' are not brands at all.
This little scandal did reveal how many products fall under the 'Vista' umbrella.
VF Corp is another monster. https://www.vfc.com/brands/all-brands

Most don't realize when you head to the local store for a backpack and hum and drum between Eastpak, Jansport, Eagle Creek, or even The North Face that all you are doing is choosing which tag VF corp put on the pack.
An astute observer may even note that in many stores that these are literally the only brands on the shelf...

Violently debating Icebreaker vs Smartwool on Whiteblaze? No worries... VF corp wins your dollar either way.

Think you're pulling a fast one and buying the wally world or Amazon knock-off? Odds are decent it's still under the umbrella someplace and the only fast one is on you.

Those are the mega conglomerate companies a small business like Patagonia is competing with.

It's hard for folks like me who try to even keep track of who owns who and how. Altra shoes has been bought and sold... twice.
Companies like Vista and VF corp go out of their way to confuse consumers.

[Just Bill]

https://www.runnersworld.com/general-interest/altra-sold-to-vf-corporation

Well ****balls... VF corp strikes again.

“The acquisition of the Altra brand is another example of our efforts to reshape and evolve our portfolio of powerful brands to align with our enterprise value creation model,” said Steve Rendle, chairman, president and chief executive officer of VF Corporation, in a press release. “The active outdoor and performance sector is a large and attractive growth space. The addition of the Altra brand brings to VF a unique and differentiated technical footwear brand and a capability that when applied across VF’s outdoor footwear, direct-to-consumer, and international platforms will serve as a catalyst for growth.”

'Enterprise value creation model'... That's some Greenwa$$$hing right thar I tell you wyat.

Guess time to look at those Topo's more seriously. :rolleyes:

[Emerson Bigills]

REI has demonstrated their commitment for the out of doors for decades. They are among the leaders in retail in several areas of sustainability including how they create and use energy in their stores and Distribution Centers. They are in business for their members, but they seem to do things the right way. Everyone has a choice of where to shop, but I have always thought they connected well to a very broad base of outdoor enthusiasts.

As for shipping impacts on the environment, unless you expect all food and products to be sourced locally, see the stone age, there is going to be transportation of goods to support commerce. The good news is that many of the innovative environmentally forward transportation/shipping trends are also good for the bottom line.

[Qajaq]

I'm a backpacker, paddler, mountain biker, you name it outdoors, and have probably spent thousands with REI over the years, but with them going anti-2A, they will never see another dime from me. I'll gladly take my money to other businesses, like Hill People Gear and others, who respect the Constitution.

[nsherry61]

. . . but with them going anti-2A, they will never see another dime from me. . . respect the Constitution.
You'd better read REI's statement a little more carefully if you think they are going anti-2A. They are absolutely suggesting that gun violence needs to be addressed by the industry that profits from gun sales. But, they very carefully skirted any suggestion about how that gun violence needed to be addressed. If you think demanding an effort to address the harm your products are doing is somehow immoral or that, by default it means banning those products, I think you'd better rethink your perspective!

[rickb]

You'd better read REI's statement a little more carefully if you think they are going anti-2A. They are absolutely suggesting that gun violence needs to be addressed by the industry that profits from gun sales. But, they very carefully skirted any suggestion about how that gun violence needed to be addressed. If you think demanding an effort to address the harm your products are doing is somehow immoral or that, by default it means banning those products, I think you'd better rethink your perspective!

REI proffits is greatly from the sale of Bicycles.

With the many hundreds of people killed on bikes each year — including no small number of school children — and the 10s of thousands more who suffer injury, one wonders if they are doing enough to support their own safety initiative in that arena.

[Feral Bill]

REI proffits is greatly from the sale of Bicycles.

With the many hundreds of people killed on bikes each year — including no small number of school children — and the 10s of thousands more who suffer injury, one wonders if they are doing enough to support their own safety initiative in that arena.
REI sponsors safe cycling classes, at least in my community. To a large degree, cyclists die because they ride unsafely. Otherwise mostly because of bad drivers. I commuted for years in city traffic with only one scare, caused by a wrong way driver. I survived because the driver in the next lane braked hard, giving me a (small) place to go. The bicycle (bought at REI) was not to blame.

[rocketsocks]

Free will and personal responsibility

[Offshore]

I'm a backpacker, paddler, mountain biker, you name it outdoors, and have probably spent thousands with REI over the years, but with them going anti-2A, they will never see another dime from me. I'll gladly take my money to other businesses, like Hill People Gear and others, who respect the Constitution.

Exactly what is REI doing that is either violating the Constitution or your individual rights? Just as you are free to express political your ideology and support for an industry lobbying group by not buying from a particular retailer, that retailer is free to express theirs by not buying from a particular manufacturer. Everybody wants a piece of the victimhood and outrage...

[rickb]

Exactly what is REI doing that is either violating the Constitution or your individual rights? Just as you are free to express political your ideology and support for an industry lobbying group by not buying from a particular retailer, that retailer is free to express theirs by not buying from a particular manufacturer. Everybody wants a piece of the victimhood and outrage...
Sounds like Qajaq, like myself, is one of REI’s owners.

As such, wouldn’t you agree that he not only has “standing” on this matter, but a responsibility to have his own voice heard?

[nsherry61]

Sounds like Qajaq, like myself, is one of REI’s owners.
As such, wouldn’t you agree that he not only has “standing” on this matter, but a responsibility to have his own voice heard?
And, as you put it, I am an "owner" also along with probably most of the readers of these forums. Nobody is damning Qajaq's right to have his/her voice heard, but it would sure be nice if that voice were addressing something real instead of condemning "our" company for something it has quite carefully and deliberately avoided doing!

[rocketsocks]

Sounds like Qajaq, like myself, is one of REI’s owners.

As such, wouldn’t you agree that he not only has “standing” on this matter, but a responsibility to have his own voice heard?
I’d go so far as to say REI being co-op has a neutral fiduciary responsibility from a moral stand point.

[rocketsocks]

But hey, they got me for $20 bucks, but no more.

[rocketsocks]

Exactly what is REI doing that is either violating the Constitution or your individual rights? Just as you are free to express political your ideology and support for an industry lobbying group by not buying from a particular retailer, that retailer is free to express theirs by not buying from a particular manufacturer. Everybody wants a piece of the victimhood and outrage...not fur nutin’ That victimhood goes both ways ‘ere skippy.

[Greenlight]

Yes yes, air conditioning and light are evil. But to the best of my knowledge, REI ships their products out using third parties, such as FedEX and UPS. Those companies generally put more than one package in each vehicle before going out for delivery, which would make them, in a sense, public transportation for consumer products. Beyond feeling good about implementing standards for sustainability, there is always that tendency to venture into jadedness, but nobody here on whiteblaze suffers from that unfortunate malady.


I love how these companies preach helping the environment. Then, you walk into these huge stores with air conditioners roaring, lights blaring, sucking up all sorts of electricity. Just think how much gasoline REI uses every day shipping their products across the country. If these little things make them feel better, fine I guess. They don't really practice what they preach.

[Tundracamper]

REI proffits is greatly from the sale of Bicycles.

With the many hundreds of people killed on bikes each year — including no small number of school children — and the 10s of thousands more who suffer injury, one wonders if they are doing enough to support their own safety initiative in that arena.

I see plenty of knives in the REI web site. How many people die from knife wounds each year? I see REI doing nothing to stop that.

The reality is that REI jumped on the band wagon to influence change that really has very little impact - accept for law abiding citizens. It's clear from the other posters that I am not the only one put off by REIs grandstanding for a few political points. They have created this monster and I'm kinda enjoying the backlash I'm seeing. Sorta reminds me of a kid holding their breath demanding action and you just stand there till they pass out:)

Free speech and free enterprise. Both can have consequences - seems most people forget that there are no guarantees about the consequences.

[Greenlight]

Learned to shoot a .22 and destroy clay pigeons in Boy Scouts. It was a common sight to see loaded shotguns on racks in my high school friends' pickup trucks. Learned to put a bullet in a bullseye @ 300 yards at Basic Training. Have a shotgun and a pistol for personal protection. That said, I wasn't aware that the 2A required anyone or everyone to own and love guns, or require stores to sell them. My own interpretation of the 2A is that the founding fathers had enough common sense to know that technology would continue to refine products, and that Americans should always be free to own the same class and caliber of arms that would be used against them. Still, my gander isn't got by anyone who refuses to own, carry, load, unload, buy, sell, or borrow a gun or pistol.


I see plenty of knives in the REI web site. How many people die from knife wounds each year? I see REI doing nothing to stop that.

The reality is that REI jumped on the band wagon to influence change that really has very little impact - accept for law abiding citizens. It's clear from the other posters that I am not the only one put off by REIs grandstanding for a few political points. They have created this monster and I'm kinda enjoying the backlash I'm seeing. Sorta reminds me of a kid holding their breath demanding action and you just stand there till they pass out:)

Free speech and free enterprise. Both can have consequences - seems most people forget that there are no guarantees about the consequences.

[Sarcasm the elf]

https://www.runnersworld.com/general-interest/altra-sold-to-vf-corporation

Well ****balls... VF corp strikes again.

“The acquisition of the Altra brand is another example of our efforts to reshape and evolve our portfolio of powerful brands to align with our enterprise value creation model,” said Steve Rendle, chairman, president and chief executive officer of VF Corporation, in a press release. “The active outdoor and performance sector is a large and attractive growth space. The addition of the Altra brand brings to VF a unique and differentiated technical footwear brand and a capability that when applied across VF’s outdoor footwear, direct-to-consumer, and international platforms will serve as a catalyst for growth.”

'Enterprise value creation model'... That's some Greenwa$$$hing right thar I tell you wyat.

Guess time to look at those Topo's more seriously. :rolleyes:

Gotta love the PR language; apparently they weren’t interested in a company or a product, they bought it as a “brand.” That mentality probably goes some way towards explaining why the TNF shell jacket I bought in the ‘90’s is still going strong, , but the one I bought in recent years barely lasted a couple seasons.

[rickb]

The bicycle (bought at REI) was not to blame.

Good point.

Perhaps your way of thinking extends to other legal products?

[Just Bill]

Gotta love the PR language; apparently they weren’t interested in a company or a product, they bought it as a “brand.” That mentality probably goes some way towards explaining why the TNF shell jacket I bought in the ‘90’s is still going strong, , but the one I bought in recent years barely lasted a couple seasons.
I sold many a Mountain/Mountain Guide jacket then. Truly was the best in the business at that time. Late 90's was about when they were sold to VFcorp... course Doug Thompkins sold it in the late 60's so not exactly the original company at that point either...
Interestingly the company that first bought it pimped out the name too, before circling back and redeveloping the core gear to save the brand so they could sell it.
VF corp hasn't quite mastered that lesson but they too have been working on repairing TNF in recent years.

No big secret you can get townies to buy $30 hats, $40 t-shirts and $100 sweatshirts with a good brand. But once you lose the dirtbags you lose the posers too.
Patagonia seems to have never forgotten that.

Nothing wrong with having a brand so long as you remember what made it one in the first place. Lotta people cry about Patagucci 'selling out', but I'm perfectly happy with how they spend the money they get from posers and urban outfitters crowd.... it's just good business.

I'm perfectly happy with the badass core stuff they develop too, especially when I have enough patience to wait for the 50% off sales.

Altra... probably got a few years until it gets absorbed into the collective.
Resistance is futile since the borg run VF corp.

[nsherry61]

Good point.
Perhaps your way of thinking extends to other legal products?
And, just like REI offers free classes on riding bicycles safely and donates profits to organizations to lobby to promote safer bicycle riding infrastructure, I don't think it is out of line for gun manufactures and retailers to accept that they are also part of a gun owning community. And, and profiting members of that community, I don't think expecting them to put forth some effort and investment to contribute constructively to the conversation about gun safety out of line. . . and, asking Vista Outdoor to "outline a clear plan of action" to address gun safety issues is NOT in any way suggesting what that outline must contain, just that some effort and ownership of a plan needs to be taken. That is not anti-2A from what I read.

[Just Bill]

Learned to shoot a .22 and destroy clay pigeons in Boy Scouts. It was a common sight to see loaded shotguns on racks in my high school friends' pickup trucks. Learned to put a bullet in a bullseye @ 300 yards at Basic Training. Have a shotgun and a pistol for personal protection. That said, I wasn't aware that the 2A required anyone or everyone to own and love guns, or require stores to sell them. My own interpretation of the 2A is that the founding fathers had enough common sense to know that technology would continue to refine products, and that Americans should always be free to own the same class and caliber of arms that would be used against them. Still, my gander isn't got by anyone who refuses to own, carry, load, unload, buy, sell, or borrow a gun or pistol.


Good point.

Perhaps your way of thinking extends to other legal products?

Most outdoor folks have a background in scouts, military, or simply in country living. Most of us own tools.

Most reasonable gun owners do not buy into the 'dangers to the 2nd amendment' line either.

Outdoors folks on both sides need to find a reasonable stance that reflects the reasonable and moderate views of it's customers. We all need each other.

Gun owners who are not so reasonable will need to find some sort of compromise position.... simply enforcing current laws may be plenty.
There is zero reason for a responsible gun owner to not abide by a background check, licensed dealer sales, and 72 waiting period. An age restriction bump to 21 across the board seems reasonable too.

Selling guns at a trumped up flea market and calling it a 'gun show' protected by your rights isn't really a great argument... and just as bad a PR disaster as REI's quasi ban in the eyes of gun detractors.
When I got some whino to buy me beer in the parking lot before I was 21 I certainly wasn't excising my right to drink beer. Bout the only argument I buy is that a dealer sale/transfer costs money; so I'd be happy to support you in demanding that the government pay that fee to your local gun shop. Lot better deal than you'd get when you sell a car.

High capacity clips and so called weapons of war... that's a gun nut problem. Much like REI; gun folks stepped in their own pile of poop they need to figure out.
People don't really care about the semantics or technicalities; on either side.

When one side adopts an extreme position, it stands to reason an opposite side will arise with an equally extreme position.

Unfortunately the extreme side of the gun lobby has to give a little for this to die down at this point.
Or moderate folks like me will just have to wait for all the boomers to literally develop cold dead hands and the very fired up youngsters will hit 18 and vote the crap out of my reasonable gun rights too.

REI has 20% more members than the NRA. Guess what? Apparently REI is only recently aware of that fact.

Straight from wikipedia- "Millennials have surpassed Baby Boomers as the nation's largest living generation, according to population estimates released this month by the U.S. Census Bureau. Millennials, whom we define as those ages 18-34 in 2015, now number 75.4 million, surpassing the 74.9 million Baby Boomers (ages 51-69)"


I'd advise any gun folks to passionately advocate for something reasonable, rather than to continue building the opposition into an increasingly growing coalition driven to extremes in response.
If nothing else... the numbers are not looking good. Nobody wants your guns... yet.

Guess what? When they do it won't be your guns, it will be mine.


Personally I'd prefer a little moderation, to move on, and for outdoors folks of all types to get together with these youngsters who also want to fix the planet they are on.
Can't really blame them not participating in that issue when they are busy figuring out if they will live long enough to make it to the voting booth.

As anyone who posts on this forum knows; fears of things, real or imagined, tend to dominate peoples minds.
Being in a mass shooting at school is now statistically more likely than being eaten by bears, killed by snakes, stung by bees or any of the countless horrors that face you on the trail.
So perfectly reasonable to me for these newbies to be 'packing their fears' too.
So it's a bit silly to even try to dismiss those fears when a few practical steps can be taken to remove them and get them out on into the world.

Outdoors people are the ones with the ability to reach out to someone and calm unreasonable fears who have a unique perspective on what's really important.
To advise on some practical steps to take, reasonable precautions and minimum standards of safety.
The ability to walk a trail, take responsibility, and maintain a level head in the face of changing conditions.

[Uncle Joe]

Nobody wants your guns... yet.

Plenty of people in these protests shout just that. It's not "extreme" to think they want to take away gun ownership when they're actually shouting it.

[Just Bill]

Plenty of people in these protests shout just that. It's not "extreme" to think they want to take away gun ownership when they're actually shouting it.
Obummer was violently seizing them last I heard too... I'd take this crowd much more seriously- which is my point.

Fringes on both sides.
It wouldn't take much, certainly nothing unreasonable, to placate the more moderate 'extremists'.
Things die down and the extreme gun nut can go back to screaming at the extreme anti-gun nut in the corner where they have always been.

Get rid of the very small and vocal minority on each side and we are on the same page.
Let this keep running until even moderates join the extreme... and it's simple running of numbers that indicates odds are not in favor of guns.

Do something before something is done for you.
A few little things and we are done debating if a dressed up .22 is an assault weapon or not.
Do nothing and dig in again...
Urban population has passed rural population.
Millenials have passed boomers.
Hunting is on the decline as is the number of actual gun owners (not guns owned).
I'm 40, most kids my age fired a gun at some point. That is no longer the case for most 20 year olds.
Most people simply don't shoot guns, let alone own them, let alone feel passionately enough about them to vote on the issue.

Many people know people affected by gun violence. Most people know kids, or even own a few. They feel passionately enough to vote on the issue.

My wife's uncle shot himself. She hates guns because someone committed suicide with one and damaged her family.
Is that a rational or reasoned position? Nope. Do I wave my guns around or force her to comply with my position. Nope.
Was she at a PTA meeting about guns in schools- yep. No previous political interest, barely a voting record. But guns... and kids. It doesn't take much for passion to turn to action these days.

Give it a decade and you may find indeed that the second amendment is in danger. People don't really care about giving up something they don't even own. Folks will simply say... you had your chance.
It won't be that anyone takes your guns... it will turn out you simply gave em up by refusing to have any reasonable dialogue on an issue where numbers now put you in the minority.

Nobody feels bad about that person on their 4th DUI losing their licence... if things continue public sentiment on this issue won't be too far behind.


Don't put too much faith in rational debate and reason or a 200+ year old document.

You could easily see half the electorate wiped off the map simply based upon public outrage. Idiots on both sides of the isle gain a majority, do something dumb, pat themselves on the back... and then people get mad again and the outrage machine fires up on the other side. I would not be shocked to see something even more dramatic happen this flip of the voting lever.

A rationale, reasonable gun owner might want to check the wind and realize they are going to miss this last shot.

[devoidapop]

Plenty of people in these protests shout just that. It's not "extreme" to think they want to take away gun ownership when they're actually shouting it.
Obummer was violently seizing them last I heard too...

True story. My cousin's neighbor's brother got his guns taken away before they sent him to a FEMA camp.

[Feral Bill]

Hot button issues (guns, immigration, abortion, etc) inevitably generate nonsense arguments on all sides. I find this vexing, especially when people on my side go completely off the rails. When I come up with a solution to this, Whiteblazers will be the first to know.

[Tundracamper]

And, just like REI offers free classes on riding bicycles safely and donates profits to organizations to lobby to promote safer bicycle riding infrastructure, I don't think it is out of line for gun manufactures and retailers to accept that they are also part of a gun owning community.

You are comparing a retailer to a manufacturer. How many car companies offer driving courses? How many knife manufacturers teach you how to cut meat? How many chain saw manufacturers teach people how to cut trees? Owners have a responsibility to learn how how to operate something safely. That will not stop whackos from hurting people.

[Uncle Joe]

I'd take this crowd much more seriously- which is my point.


Except it's not just the crowd. Politicians do too.

[rickb]

You are comparing a retailer to a manufacturer. How many car companies offer driving courses? How many knife manufacturers teach you how to cut meat? How many chain saw manufacturers teach people how to cut trees? Owners have a responsibility to learn how how to operate something safely. That will not stop whackos from hurting people.
Good point, but don’t forget that the NRA offers any number of gun safety courses.

I am sure a quick google could find MANY more of those course here in Massachusetts (for example) than bicycle safety training done by REI in any given month.

I don’t know the extent that all gun manufactures support NRA and the shooting sports (particularly those focused on young people participation), but if that is what REI is asking of them, I might be persuaded to rethink my objections.

[MuddyWaters]

You are comparing a retailer to a manufacturer. How many car companies offer driving courses? How many knife manufacturers teach you how to cut meat? How many chain saw manufacturers teach people how to cut trees? Owners have a responsibility to learn how how to operate something safely. That will not stop whackos from hurting people.

ATV mfgs offer classes on how to ride safely, and pay you a significant rebate when attend.
Or at least used to when i bought mine. $100 for 2 hrs on sat morning....Im in.

I wouldn be surprised if it was $250 today.
Reason is, people die , or get hurt, especially kids, and their products are legislated and regulated. Sometimes right out of existence, like the three-wheeler. With a $$$$ purchase, you can entice people with a nice rebate $$$.

[Tundracamper]

ATV mfgs offer classes on how to ride safely, and pay you a significant rebate when attend.
Or at least used to when i bought mine. $100 for 2 hrs on sat morning....Im in.

You are in for what? How to not accidentally go into a place of business or a school and shoot a bunch of people? That's what we're actually talking about, right? This conversation has nothing to do with gun safety - unless REI is terribly concerned about people accidentally shooting themselves with an AR, which I suspect is not even possible.

[Just Bill]

Except it's not just the crowd. Politicians do too.
Eggsactly. Kudos for taking my long rambling posts and condensing them down to one sentence.

[nsherry61]

Kudos to to REI for taking a stance on asking its suppliers to take some social responsibility for their products.
Kudos to the NRA for it endless decades of promoting and teaching gun safety to adults and children alike!
Kudos to WhiteBlaze for tolerating discussions about social responsibility, guns, and most importantly promoting backpacking and the AT.
Kudos to to everyone on these forums constructively and respectfully contributing to our community conversation about the outdoor activities we love.
Kudos to the bears that generally leave us alone, provide awesome stores at times, and only eat us occasionally.

But most of all, Kudos to all those trail volunteers that build and maintain the trails that we would not be here without.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Eggsactly. Kudos for taking my long rambling posts and condensing them down to one sentence.


Kudos to to REI for taking a stance on asking its suppliers to take some social responsibility for their products.
Kudos to the NRA for it endless decades of promoting and teaching gun safety to adults and children alike!
Kudos to WhiteBlaze for tolerating discussions about social responsibility, guns, and most importantly promoting backpacking and the AT.
Kudos to to everyone on these forums constructively and respectfully contributing to our community conversation about the outdoor activities we love.
Kudos to the bears that generally leave us alone, provide awesome stores at times, and only eat us occasionally.

But most of all, Kudos to all those trail volunteers that build and maintain the trails that we would not be hear without.

And since this is a backpacking website, we would be remiss not to mention:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Kudos_Chocolate_Chip.gif

[Just Bill]

You are in for what? How to not accidentally go into a place of business or a school and shoot a bunch of people? That's what we're actually talking about, right? This conversation has nothing to do with gun safety - unless REI is terribly concerned about people accidentally shooting themselves with an AR, which I suspect is not even possible.

As the more Feral version of William pointed out; exactly what we are talking about is emotional and irrational responses.

All of these issues are generally about perception, with no depth.

If a responsible gun owner does agree with the simple tool argument; It's a fair point to point out that it does seem to be a rather unique tool.
Cars need a licence, registration, and the privilege can be revoked. The founding fathers didn't need to spell out your right to a vehicle, but you have the right just the same... with some reasonable conditions.
I can't go buy a semi truck and drive down the highway without demonstrating that I have the ability to do so.

Cigarettes have no capacity to kill multiple people but do have an age restriction of at least 18... with debate on raising that age limit to 21.
In many areas of the country liquor has age restrictions, strange laws about buying various strengths and even counties that remain dry to this day.

As many point out to me- if you idiot proof a product, all you do is create a better idiot.

The current gun debate has little to do with meaningful correction to the mass shooting problem. DUH. It is the low hanging fruit on the tree of issues, give them an apple so they can move on.

Raising the age to 21 is a reasonable request in my opinion. I see no downside to that and it affect zero reasonable gun owners.
Increasing the waiting period for long guns to match that of handguns is a reasonable request. Even with Amazon prime we often wait two days for our instant gratification fix. The only 'harm' this does to law abiding gun owners is that it would restrict instant exchange of tools at a tool show. But again, you can't sell a car without paperwork and I see nothing unique about this tool.
Nationwide connected background checks and actually doing them at each sale is already a law in some form or another. Cut out some of the red tape and use it.

The NRA, generally speaking, has taken an 'all or nothing' approach.
Be it the chicken little statements regarding second amendment rights or the slippery slope arguments... they continue to play a zero sum game.
One I find it increasingly likely they will lose.

Obummer didn't take the guns, but guns sure sold like hotcakes.
Cousin Jimmy is out of the Fema Camp and all stocked up.
Preppers cleaned the store shelves out for a bit, but they are stocked again after the 'great ammo shortage' which still somehow artificially exists.
Personal defense and conceal and carry demand has been met.
AR sales are through the roof, and however many bump stocks one can equip are sold... congrats! Another great quarter.

Overall the folks who are going to buy are pretty well stocked up. You can only play the chicken little sales card so many times.
Gun owners are financially fatigued and slowly reducing their automatic wallet grab and windfalls for the gun lobby after every headline.
If nothing else... you can't get blood from a stone. By catering to the alarmist in favor of reasonable customers most moderate shooters have lost interest in the hobby.
And the alarmists who maxed out the credit card to stock rounds and gobbled up AR parts before they were banned are not generally in the six figure a year salary demographic.


They have a marketing problem much more damaging than REI's little flub. The message is not misconstrued from the gun industry... it is at it's core. It does not represent it's customers views or core values, and has actually lost them more than it's gained. I own a hammer. I don't need fifty of them or thousands of 50lb boxes of nails and I'm not real interested in paying $30 and going to the nail driving range either. I'm definitely not interested in standing next to some dude with sixteen paslode framing nailers and 30 hammers strapped to his belt. If nothing else, I'm liable to put a nail in his noggin if he keeps yapping his nonsense in my face.

Ironically the gun lobby and industry practices many values diametrically opposed to the generally kind, good hearted and god loving americans who defend them.
If you'd like to talk hot headlines there are quite a few interesting financial conspiracies going as well... but the fundamental problem is public relations.
People are pissed... If the public has a black eye threatening to give them another one is not a great public position.
Doing a few minor things and moving away from this all or nothing stance is one even gun owners support. The current biggest threat to the 2nd amendment is the gun lobby.

To bring it back; upon closer inspection after the hot headline cooled off it appears that REI suspended it's orders with a supplier who also happens to sell guns.
REI has chosen to clean up it's supply chain, which is how this thread started. The outdoors industry is waking up to the fact that they have financial clout, and by fiat: political power.
If Vista outdoor refuses to take steps to clean up and responsibly source the products they sell; they will not be stocked on the shelves.
If Vista outdoor refuses to make some reasonable attempt at stepping off the all or nothing platform; they will not be stocked on the shelves.

Since corporations are people now... REI has the right to use it's purchasing power to dictate the terms of purchase.

Politics is a game of division, ideally very black and white surface issues.
Kids died. There was a gun. If you had to pick your gun or your kid which would you choose?

That's a ridiculous thing to ask, which is exactly the point. It is a polarizing and intentionally emotional and reactionary statement.
It forces division, it angers in it's very premise. It's 'rage bait' designed to capture your attention.
It keeps us busy as sadly both sides take such questions very seriously at face value.

The gun side needs to make a few simple changes, or concessions. They have taken an unreasonable position.
You can't discuss the myriad of social issues that have led to the increase in mass shootings; prescription drug abuse, broken families,economic hardship, lack of mental health care or dozens of other issues in our quickly burning Rome.

Unfortunately after years of all or nothing policy we are rapidly approaching the choice they have requested.
The 'what about this' debate is exhausted in the public sphere. Oddly REI's response is one of the more reasonable ones you will find.

A company like Dick's may or may not have taken a moral stance; more realistically the minor retail profit probably wasn't worth the headache.
Selling guns is not an easy thing, I sold them at a sporting good store and inventory control, training, paperwork, liability and now public perception make things tricky when your primary customers are moms equipping kiddos for after school sports. They used to be a loss leader product... you carried guns so guys would wander over to the outdoor section and pick up a few things. I didn't sell many guns but fishing lures, clay pigeons, ammo, binoculars and all the junk in front of the gun case moved. Customers could come in, fondle a gun fer a bit, get worked up and then satisfy themselves with some other piece of junk. You don't make much money really... so if 10 soccer moms say they aren't buying shin guards at 100% markup because you sell a one gun a week at 5% markup... it's a pretty easy business call that may have nothing to do with guns at all. But might as well pull a few political points and free advertising out of the move. That's good solid capitalism right thar.

Politicians follow us... it's us who keep forcing these black and white issues upon ourselves to fight about.

Me... I own a gun and have a kid. I'll store gun, ammo, and kid in separate places under separate lock and key.
It's a rational reasonable response even my negatively impassioned spouse can buy into.
And then we can move on to other issues that are actually important in our lives.

Politics cannot be the art of compromise unless the constituents agree to compromise and move on.
As it sits we've made these issues too hot to touch. Increasingly not touching this issue is also too hot.
In the meantime, left to their own devices; politicians are doing some seriously heinous things that do not even make the news because they are not emotionally triggering enough to warrant the viewers attention.

[rocketsocks]

And since this is a backpacking website, we would be remiss not to mention:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Kudos_Chocolate_Chip.gifokay that get’s a gene gene right there...Brilliant!

[rocketsocks]

As the more Feral version of William pointed out; exactly what we are talking about is emotional and irrational responses.

All of these issues are generally about perception, with no depth.

If a responsible gun owner does agree with the simple tool argument; It's a fair point to point out that it does seem to be a rather unique tool.
Cars need a licence, registration, and the privilege can be revoked. The founding fathers didn't need to spell out your right to a vehicle, but you have the right just the same... with some reasonable conditions.
I can't go buy a semi truck and drive down the highway without demonstrating that I have the ability to do so.

Cigarettes have no capacity to kill multiple people but do have an age restriction of at least 18... with debate on raising that age limit to 21.
In many areas of the country liquor has age restrictions, strange laws about buying various strengths and even counties that remain dry to this day.

As many point out to me- if you idiot proof a product, all you do is create a better idiot.

The current gun debate has little to do with meaningful correction to the mass shooting problem. DUH. It is the low hanging fruit on the tree of issues, give them an apple so they can move on.

Raising the age to 21 is a reasonable request in my opinion. I see no downside to that and it affect zero reasonable gun owners.
Increasing the waiting period for long guns to match that of handguns is a reasonable request. Even with Amazon prime we often wait two days for our instant gratification fix. The only 'harm' this does to law abiding gun owners is that it would restrict instant exchange of tools at a tool show. But again, you can't sell a car without paperwork and I see nothing unique about this tool.
Nationwide connected background checks and actually doing them at each sale is already a law in some form or another. Cut out some of the red tape and use it.

The NRA, generally speaking, has taken an 'all or nothing' approach.
Be it the chicken little statements regarding second amendment rights or the slippery slope arguments... they continue to play a zero sum game.
One I find it increasingly likely they will lose.

Obummer didn't take the guns, but guns sure sold like hotcakes.
Cousin Jimmy is out of the Fema Camp and all stocked up.
Preppers cleaned the store shelves out for a bit, but they are stocked again after the 'great ammo shortage' which still somehow artificially exists.
Personal defense and conceal and carry demand has been met.
AR sales are through the roof, and however many bump stocks one can equip are sold... congrats! Another great quarter.

Overall the folks who are going to buy are pretty well stocked up. You can only play the chicken little sales card so many times.
Gun owners are financially fatigued and slowly reducing their automatic wallet grab and windfalls for the gun lobby after every headline.
If nothing else... you can't get blood from a stone. By catering to the alarmist in favor of reasonable customers most moderate shooters have lost interest in the hobby.
And the alarmists who maxed out the credit card to stock rounds and gobbled up AR parts before they were banned are not generally in the six figure a year salary demographic.


They have a marketing problem much more damaging than REI's little flub. The message is not misconstrued from the gun industry... it is at it's core. It does not represent it's customers views or core values, and has actually lost them more than it's gained. I own a hammer. I don't need fifty of them or thousands of 50lb boxes of nails and I'm not real interested in paying $30 and going to the nail driving range either. I'm definitely not interested in standing next to some dude with sixteen paslode framing nailers and 30 hammers strapped to his belt. If nothing else, I'm liable to put a nail in his noggin if he keeps yapping his nonsense in my face.

Ironically the gun lobby and industry practices many values diametrically opposed to the generally kind, good hearted and god loving americans who defend them.
If you'd like to talk hot headlines there are quite a few interesting financial conspiracies going as well... but the fundamental problem is public relations.
People are pissed... If the public has a black eye threatening to give them another one is not a great public position.
Doing a few minor things and moving away from this all or nothing stance is one even gun owners support. The current biggest threat to the 2nd amendment is the gun lobby.

To bring it back; upon closer inspection after the hot headline cooled off it appears that REI suspended it's orders with a supplier who also happens to sell guns.
REI has chosen to clean up it's supply chain, which is how this thread started. The outdoors industry is waking up to the fact that they have financial clout, and by fiat: political power.
If Vista outdoor refuses to take steps to clean up and responsibly source the products they sell; they will not be stocked on the shelves.
If Vista outdoor refuses to make some reasonable attempt at stepping off the all or nothing platform; they will not be stocked on the shelves.

Since corporations are people now... REI has the right to use it's purchasing power to dictate the terms of purchase.

Politics is a game of division, ideally very black and white surface issues.
Kids died. There was a gun. If you had to pick your gun or your kid which would you choose?

That's a ridiculous thing to ask, which is exactly the point. It is a polarizing and intentionally emotional and reactionary statement.
It forces division, it angers in it's very premise. It's 'rage bait' designed to capture your attention.
It keeps us busy as sadly both sides take such questions very seriously at face value.

The gun side needs to make a few simple changes, or concessions. They have taken an unreasonable position.
You can't discuss the myriad of social issues that have led to the increase in mass shootings; prescription drug abuse, broken families,economic hardship, lack of mental health care or dozens of other issues in our quickly burning Rome.

Unfortunately after years of all or nothing policy we are rapidly approaching the choice they have requested.
The 'what about this' debate is exhausted in the public sphere. Oddly REI's response is one of the more reasonable ones you will find.

A company like Dick's may or may not have taken a moral stance; more realistically the minor retail profit probably wasn't worth the headache.
Selling guns is not an easy thing, I sold them at a sporting good store and inventory control, training, paperwork, liability and now public perception make things tricky when your primary customers are moms equipping kiddos for after school sports. They used to be a loss leader product... you carried guns so guys would wander over to the outdoor section and pick up a few things. I didn't sell many guns but fishing lures, clay pigeons, ammo, binoculars and all the junk in front of the gun case moved. Customers could come in, fondle a gun fer a bit, get worked up and then satisfy themselves with some other piece of junk. You don't make much money really... so if 10 soccer moms say they aren't buying shin guards at 100% markup because you sell a one gun a week at 5% markup... it's a pretty easy business call that may have nothing to do with guns at all. But might as well pull a few political points and free advertising out of the move. That's good solid capitalism right thar.

Politicians follow us... it's us who keep forcing these black and white issues upon ourselves to fight about.

Me... I own a gun and have a kid. I'll store gun, ammo, and kid in separate places under separate lock and key.
It's a rational reasonable response even my negatively impassioned spouse can buy into.
And then we can move on to other issues that are actually important in our lives.

Politics cannot be the art of compromise unless the constituents agree to compromise and move on.
As it sits we've made these issues too hot to touch. Increasingly not touching this issue is also too hot.
In the meantime, left to their own devices; politicians are doing some seriously heinous things that do not even make the news because they are not emotionally triggering enough to warrant the viewers attention.*** is wrong with you man! I ain’t readn’ all that :D

[Just Bill]

*** is wrong with you man! I ain’t readn’ all that :D

You just need one Kudos to power through it :banana

[Uncle Joe]

Since corporations are people now... REI has the right to use it's purchasing power to dictate the terms of purchase.


Sure REI has the right. I'd call their handling of the situation far from reasonable.

[nsherry61]

Sure REI has the right. I'd call their handling of the situation far from reasonable.
Have you actually read what REI said and did?

You may disagree with them, which is understandable and fine. But to suggest that what they did was "far from reasonable" suggests you aren't aware of the lengths they went to or how little they were asking for.

[Uncle Joe]

Have you actually read what REI said and did?
You may disagree with them, which is understandable and fine. But to suggest that what they did was "far from reasonable" suggests you aren't aware of the lengths they went to or how little they were asking for.
I read their published statement. They wanted a "statement" of a "plan." It was vague. Likely intentionally. If they've said anything about what kind of "plan" they expected from Vista I haven't seen it. Link to it and I'll be glad to read it.

[Just Bill]

Copied and pasted from the following
https://newsroom.rei.com/company-information/statements/rei-statement-on-relationship-with-vista-outdoor.htm


03.01.2018

REI does not sell guns. We believe that it is the job of companies that manufacture and sell guns and ammunition to work towards common sense solutions that prevent the type of violence that happened in Florida last month. In the last few days, we’ve seen such action from companies like Dick’s Sporting Goods and Walmart and we applaud their leadership.

This week, we have been in active discussions with Vista Outdoor, which has recently acquired several companies that are longtime partners of REI. These include Giro, Bell, Camelbak, Camp Chef and Blackburn. Vista also owns Savage Arms, which manufactures guns including “modern sporting rifles.”

This morning we learned that Vista does not plan to make a public statement that outlines a clear plan of action. As a result, we have decided to place a hold on future orders of products that Vista sells through REI while we assess how Vista proceeds.

Companies are showing they can contribute if they are willing to lead. We encourage Vista to do just that.

[Uncle Joe]

Copied and pasted from the following
https://newsroom.rei.com/company-information/statements/rei-statement-on-relationship-with-vista-outdoor.htm

03.01.2018
REI does not sell guns. We believe that it is the job of companies that manufacture and sell guns and ammunition to work towards common sense solutions that prevent the type of violence that happened in Florida last month. In the last few days, we’ve seen such action from companies like Dick’s Sporting Goods and Walmart and we applaud their leadership.
This week, we have been in active discussions with Vista Outdoor, which has recently acquired several companies that are longtime partners of REI. These include Giro, Bell, Camelbak, Camp Chef and Blackburn. Vista also owns Savage Arms, which manufactures guns including “modern sporting rifles.”
This morning we learned that Vista does not plan to make a public statement that outlines a clear plan of action. As a result, we have decided to place a hold on future orders of products that Vista sells through REI while we assess how Vista proceeds.
Companies are showing they can contribute if they are willing to lead. We encourage Vista to do just that.

Thanks. I think this is a bit longer than what was sent to me. I don't think it's reasonable but that's my opinion. Vista has owned Savage for a few years now so this was all political reaction. Something I feel is contra to "reason."

[Just Bill]

I read their published statement. They wanted a "statement" of a "plan." It was vague. Likely intentionally. If they've said anything about what kind of "plan" they expected from Vista I haven't seen it. Link to it and I'll be glad to read it.
REI released a 12 page paper outlining their expectations- https://www.rei.com/assets/stewardship/sustainability/rei-product-sustainability-standards/live.pdf

Of course those detailed expectations are related to their field of expertise.

One might take a skeptical approach in calling the request made of Vista intentionally vague.

One might also form the opinion that they are giving them leeway to come up with their own standards, in their own words in their own field of expertise.

It's easy to stomp your feet like a toddler and demand things. It's much more adult to notify your partner of an issue, open a dialogue and give them an opportunity to present a solution.

It's a co-op, a vocal minority of it's members made an unreasonable demand via a knee jerk petition.
REI listened to it's members, but provided a reasoned response and they left the door open to it's business partner to address the situation.
Sadly corporations truly are powerful people in our global society. REI has chosen to examine itself in that light, put some thought into the person they want to be, and put that thought into action.
They are simply asking their buddy to do the same. Failing that... guess they will part ways.


No Kudos for you on this one :(

[Uncle Joe]

It's easy to stomp your feet like a toddler and demand things. It's much more adult to notify your partner of an issue, open a dialogue and give them an opportunity to present a solution.
No Kudos for you on this one :(

Why are you getting personal with me? I wasn't "stomping my feet." I merely disagree that this is "reasonable." Disappointing. If not me then Vista? I didn't read where they were "stomping their feet." In fact, have they even commented on this publicly?

[Just Bill]

Thanks. I think this is a bit longer than what was sent to me. I don't think it's reasonable but that's my opinion. Vista has owned Savage for a few years now so this was all political reaction. Something I feel is contra to "reason."
Self-preservation is reasonable.
As is respecting yourself and your values.

Fine line to walk in this day of insta outrage and calls for boycotts; I think they handled it much better than others.

Co-Op or not, every company is at the mercy of their customers.
Since politicians fail to lead, more and more people are turning to companies to lead... or at least satisfy their baser impulses and punish the 'bad actor' of the day.
I don't think that's a great direction for our country as a whole... but we're doing it to ourselves. Hard to blame REI or even Vista for trying to surf the waves and survive the storm.

[Just Bill]

Why are you getting personal with me? I wasn't "stomping my feet." I merely disagree that this is "reasonable." Disappointing. If not me then Vista? I didn't read where they were "stomping their feet." In fact, have they even commented on this publicly?
I'm not getting personal with you- I'm speaking in generalities you are taking personally. I am responding to the points you are making.

Specifically 'stomping their feet' was more in reference to both customers and corporations who are reacting with much more drama than REI or vista.
There is quite a bit of toddler like behavior on both sides of nearly every issue today.

Far as I'm concerned... at worst you or I might choose to step away from the campfire if we met on the trail. More'n likely we'd have a decent talk and get along just fine.
I get it's easy to take it personally, but personally speaking it ain't personal.

[Uncle Joe]

I get it's easy to take it personally, but personally speaking it ain't personal.

I stand corrected. Look, I'm not taking any other comments personally. I didn't know if there was an implication there or not. It seemed to be directed at me but I'll take you at your word.

I would like to think we'd get along fine. I try not to bring up politics at all on the trail and/or in any kind of mixed or new company. Politics is a necessary evil but an evil nonetheless.

[Just Bill]

I stand corrected. Look, I'm not taking any other comments personally. I didn't know if there was an implication there or not. It seemed to be directed at me but I'll take you at your word.

I would like to think we'd get along fine. I try not to bring up politics at all on the trail and/or in any kind of mixed or new company. Politics is a necessary evil but an evil nonetheless.

Yar... I stand as a Coyote, known liar, and generally speak funny on porpoise.
Yer still welcome to the last Kudos bar in my food bag. At the end of the day that's how most of us feel and worth reminding ourselves of when evil does arrive uninvited on the trail.

[Just Bill]

I stand corrected. Look, I'm not taking any other comments personally. I didn't know if there was an implication there or not. It seemed to be directed at me but I'll take you at your word.

I would like to think we'd get along fine. I try not to bring up politics at all on the trail and/or in any kind of mixed or new company. Politics is a necessary evil but an evil nonetheless.

On a personal note, for yourself and others to take quite personally.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Or more accurately; that quote is based/adapted upon this one from Edmund Burke;

"No man, who is not inflamed by vain-glory into enthusiasm, can flatter himself that his single, unsupported, desultory, unsystematic endeavours are of power to defeat the subtle designs and united Cabals of ambitious citizens. When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

Perhaps it is worth some thought and consideration;
Those of us who are moderate, polite, respectful of our fellow humans and the planet we live on who were raised to not bring up politics or other controversial topics up in polite company are the voices missing amongst the vocal extremes who feel no such compunction and impolitely dominate the conversation.

[Dogwood]

Kudos to REI for following Patagonia's sustainability policy. Still, Patagonia's commitment to sustainability and environmental causes are the example to follow. And, remember these commitments by Patagonia were instituted long before it become so popular among the Outdoor Industry as a green marketing/advertising ploy.

[Dogwood]

"More and more responsible gun owners are disenfranchised with the NRA.
Hunting is in decline, bushcraft is on the rise... and the overlap with environmentalists has never been more complete. You can't hunt, fish or shoot if there is not land available. You can't consume anything from land that is destroyed or polluted. Eco-systems in jeopardy will not sustain sportsman."


NRA is not about hunting, "sportsmanship", or shooting practice per se. The NRA's primary goal is defending the Second Amendment which is currently under assault. They do this through marksmanship, hunting, shooting, and other events though.


The Second Amendment is not about hunting or shooting practice. It was written so the public would have the right to own firearms and practice marksmanship so it could defend itself in the event govt went tyrannical. The writers of the Second Amendment knew darn well about tyrannical govt suppressing free speech, religion, the press, to be represented in gov't, and freedom to fight back against govt military arms which is why many chose to escape these suppressions by risking everything in traveling to the 13 Colonies/New World.


https://home.nra.org/about-the-nra/


See where the NRA held shooting matches in Sea Girt NJ? That's where I used to live. It's now a U.S. Coast Guard Station. It's still a site where local, state, and Federal LEO train including having shooting matches. It's right on the Atlantic Ocean. I used to go onto the site. It became more secure after 911.

[RockDoc]

There's a very hard political edge to such requirements, which, if you read the rules are more social engineering than environmental.

Fighting pollution is laudable. But allowing radical Leftist ideology to permeate your business and dictate all products and services starts to read like the methods of the great-granddaddys of the Leftist movement, the Nazis.

[JERMM]

I love how these companies preach helping the environment. Then, you walk into these huge stores with air conditioners roaring, lights blaring, sucking up all sorts of electricity. Just think how much gasoline REI uses every day shipping their products across the country. If these little things make them feel better, fine I guess. They don't really practice what they preach.

REI is moving in the right direction, it takes time, here's an example of one of REI's distribution centers located in Goodyear, AZ. Other facilities are doing the same sort of thing.

"We took a different approach and committed to making sure the building produced all of its own energy. This thinking resulted in a 280,000-square-foot rooftop solar array that produces 2.2 megawatts of electricity—enough to power the entire facility and making the building Net Zero Energy (http://living-future.org/netzero). We are also pursuing LEED Platinum (http://www.usgbc.org/leed), the highest rating from the U.S. Green Building Council, which looks at how buildings are planned, constructed, maintained and operated."

full article here
https://www.rei.com/blog/stewardship/how-we-get-your-gear-to-you

[Tundracamper]

REI does not sell guns. We believe that it is the job of companies that manufacture and sell guns and ammunition to work towards common sense solutions that prevent the type of violence that happened in Florida last month. In the last few days, we’ve seen such action from companies like Dick’s Sporting Goods and Walmart and we applaud their leadership.

So it's completely reasonable for REI to ask one of their suppliers to take action to prevent evil in this world? Sorry, that's BS. You can't eradicate evil. So instead, you punish all those that aren't evil for the rare few that are. That's like saying car companies need to take steps to make sure their cars can't be used to intentionally run over people.

[nsherry61]

. . . That's like saying car companies need to take steps to make sure their cars can't be used to intentionally run over people.
So what is it specifically that you are suggesting REI is telling their suppliers (actually just one particular supplier) to do?

[MuddyWaters]

https://youtu.be/GzFWRPiNXOI

[rocketsocks]

https://youtu.be/GzFWRPiNXOI
Are you suggesting REI should keep it all in the family? :D

[Offshore]

Sounds like Qajaq, like myself, is one of REI’s owners.

As such, wouldn’t you agree that he not only has “standing” on this matter, but a responsibility to have his own voice heard?

"Owner" here too. I never said that he has no standing, so stop reading your own fiction into my post. As far as a "responsibility" to have his voice heard, no he doesn't. He's free to speak, but no one is required to listen - especially when its tired old whining talking points.

[BlackCloud]

I don't understand what Vista has to do w/ Parkland. Did the shooter even use a Savage Arms gun or BLACKHAWK! holster? "Social responsibility"? Who died and made REI the arbiter of community standards? Now that the gun control portion of our society realizes that legislation outlawing tactical rifles (no such thing as an "assault rifle" - all guns are engineered to destroy what their bullets hit) is never going to happen, they've turned to social shaming and strong arm tactics. [and "AR" refers to ArmaLite, not assault rifle]

While I'm always surprised to see that so many brands are owned by so few conglomerates, I don't want companies dictating values. I think that's undemocratic.

As a conservative, I can no longer watch Jimmy Kimmel, the Tonight Show or CNN. I have purchased my last Patagonia product, and I'm now cooling to my fav outdoor store.....If they keep this up....well..they're only a retailer. I can go elsewhere.

[rocketsocks]

I don't understand what Vista has to do w/ Parkland. Did the shooter even use a Savage Arms gun or BLACKHAWK! holster? "Social responsibility"? Who died and made REI the arbiter of community standards? Now that the gun control portion of our society realizes that legislation outlawing tactical rifles (no such thing as an "assault rifle" - all guns are engineered to destroy what their bullets hit) is never going to happen, they've turned to social shaming and strong arm tactics. [and "AR" refers to ArmaLite, not assault rifle]

While I'm always surprised to see that so many brands are owned by so few conglomerates, I don't want companies dictating values. I think that's undemocratic.

As a conservative, I can no longer watch Jimmy Kimmel, the Tonight Show or CNN. I have purchased my last Patagonia product, and I'm now cooling to my fav outdoor store.....If they keep this up....well..they're only a retailer. I can go elsewhere.all of this ^^^^^

[Sarcasm the elf]

The real issue that REI should be concerned with is whether the firearms sold by Vista outdoors are sustainably sourced.

[Just Bill]

There's a very hard political edge to such requirements, which, if you read the rules are more social engineering than environmental.

Fighting pollution is laudable. But allowing radical Leftist ideology to permeate your business and dictate all products and services starts to read like the methods of the great-granddaddys of the Leftist movement, the Nazis.

It would be reasonable to point out that there are easily two groups of requirements. One easily falls under the blanket of environmental stewardship. I think that is pretty straightforward.

The other group depends upon your labeling choice: Radical. Leftist. Communist. Socialist. Or jump to Nazi. Suppose there are a few other inflammatory labels one could apply too. Not being an expert at distilling anything down, let alone complex positions, into labels I'll leave that up to others.

Although the motivation behind such policy moves may be helpful. One could make human rights, basic decency, value of labor or simple moral arguments from a 'bleeding heart' standpoint. One could even throw the dramatic 'slave labor' and 'marginalization of non-white workers' around. Toss in some colonialism and native population oppression and you might win buzzword bingo.

And hard to disagree that those motivations are not real or might not apply or be used as justification in some form.

I think the more accurate term if you prefer one is economic engineering. The sewn goods industry is a mess. It is one of the largest industries on the planet where various unfavorable advantages affect the global economy. It's the unpleasant corner of the globe where horrible stuff happens. Socially, sure. But it's the social items that allow an unfair economic advantage to many companies. Currency manipulation, patent infringement, to flat out theft of intellectual property are all crimes committed and fueled by the simple fact that most of our sewn goods are produced in some dark corner someplace for tenths of pennies on the penny.

The reason the fabric mills, sweat shops, and other not so secret portions of the sewn goods industry were moved overseas is that Americans simply would not tolerate them. Pesky regulations and basic worker rights and safeties cost money. So we farm our dirty and expensive things out to places where such 'hindrances' do not exist. Our finished goods are imported back and the price we'd like to pay and we collectively look the other way. As we say in the trades, 'Can't see it from my house'. If the **** isn't in our backyard we can pretend our **** doesn't stink.

Retailers like REI are just as much, if not more so, economic victims of this continued black market of sewn goods. Years back when wally world, gap, and other retailers were supposedly working on this it was discovered that there were 'ethical' front companies who then turned around and hired subcontractors out the back door to continue to fill orders with the same folks they were trying to get rid of while pocketing the 'extra money' paid to them to do it right. Sewn goods can literally cost $1 or less. Hammock vendors in the US are facing problems with a flood of crap on Amazon. REI tries to build decent products and even economical 'house brand' items but are constantly undercut by these suppliers. A decent company like Osprey who tries to manufacture things right must compete against a pack retailer like VF corp with no such handcuffs on their profit making. REI puts them on the shelf, where as if you go to a traditional sporting goods store Osprey packs are pushed off the shelf by VF corp via exclusivity agreements.

You can buy widgets from a catalog of ali-baba sewn goods sources. Because you are buying finished goods from 'source, cut and sew' suppliers there are no regulations, no supply chain, nothing. I can buy a hammock for a few dollars, a sil-nylon tarp for less than $10. Tents for little more. Who knows what environmental costs were incurred, nor how many human rights atrocities were committed. It is a deep and very ugly issue on many fronts.

But the bottom line is always the bottom line. REI will not remain in business, nor will other suppliers of quality goods while the sewn goods industry remains in it's current form. Amazon sells anything, from anyone who can give them their cut. So do others. Common sense tells you that if you can buy a finished sewn good product for less than the cost of the raw material there is something seriously wrong.

Many of the 'fair trade' and other perceived social engineering you see is in large part financially motivated. It should be.

Only so many people can work at the Amazon distribution center, and even fewer if and when that center moves overseas. Unions have a proud tradition in this country, fair trade is simply a global variation on that theme. At the end of the day, if all one needs to do is cross an arbitrary line on a map to undercut your pay... all one can do is erase those lines via trade agreements and retailer demand. The only way to clean out these very dark corners of our global economy is for those who buy from this marketplace to stop doing so. That costs money.

All the feel good parts may have some genuine altruism behind them, but they help customers get on board and open their wallet to support the cost of these choices.


So it's completely reasonable for REI to ask one of their suppliers to take action to prevent evil in this world? Sorry, that's BS. You can't eradicate evil. So instead, you punish all those that aren't evil for the rare few that are. That's like saying car companies need to take steps to make sure their cars can't be used to intentionally run over people.



Kudos to REI for following Patagonia's sustainability policy. Still, Patagonia's commitment to sustainability and environmental causes are the example to follow. And, remember these commitments by Patagonia were instituted long before it become so popular among the Outdoor Industry as a green marketing/advertising ploy.

You can eradicate evil. The aforementioned actual Nazi's were eradicated when the good among us joined forces to remove that evil... at great cost.

Here's a simple question; How are you punished? What exactly has been taken?

If you choose not to shop at REI, have I been punished, has something been taken from me?
Should I counter protest your protest, demand you shop at REI? Contact my elected official?
If REI chooses not to shop at Vista outdoor, how does that hurt YOU?

One of Patagonia's original signature moves was organic cotton. A simple choice in the supply chain that greatly changed their business and the industry as a whole. The only one's 'punished' for this choice were industrial farms who profit from destroying our planet. A host of individual farmers were rewarded with continued contracts to farm with methods that let them sleep at night. Money was made, other companies paid attention, and one small part of the world became a better place.

We are a global community, even if we are not yet a global government. More and more your economic choices are your strongest and deepest political impact. More and more consumers vote for responsible products and deeply reward those companies that provide them. Who in turn reward us all with better wages, cleaner environments, and even political action.

Car companies do take steps to ensure their cars are safe, including new technology that literally does stop people from hitting other people. Consumers demand it, companies like Volvo and other brands market it.
Gun companies tried to implement 'safe guns' with chip or fingerprint readers. It is unclear who exactly killed that product, but it is clear that the free market and consumer rights were not high on the list of reasons.

Gun companies do take some measures to ensure safer products, it's good business. They don't want this PR nightmare, no company does. Rather than learning the lessons of companies like Patagonia, they march on with their heads buried in the same second amendment sand as ever.

Patagonia says, ' Don't buy this jacket' and doubles their customer base.
Gun companies say, 'Buy our product before they take it' and lose customers.

Patagonia says, ' This is our problem, so all sales on black Friday will go to the environment'... and they do record business that day and give away 10 million dollars but gain 100 million or more in sales from those customers in return.
Gun companies say this is not our problem, these are not our customers, we did not do this, no sympathy from us. Even simply donating a fraction of profits to a victims fund would be high on the list of recommendations from 'the most idiotic PR firm' you could possibly hire.

Patagonia takes a leadership roll; starts 1% for the planet, evaluates their supply chain, creates industry standards and drives all their competitors to do the same, vastly multiplying their impact on a global level.

I couldn't calculate the multiplier to figure out how much bigger the gun industry, or even an individual gun company is than Patagonia.
Certainly Patagonia has nowhere near the size of the NRA's reach and history.
So go beyond the bare minimum... what could be done. What lesson could be learned?

Is mental health the issue? Are gun companies donating 1% for the healthy mind.
Is it prescription drugs? Are gun companies dealing with this issue or teaming up with pharmacy companies to lobby politicians.
If a gun free zone poster is a false gesture? Are gun companies offering to train, equip and staff schools to prevent guns from entering.
If gun industry sales do fund so many outdoor activities, where are the companies when the national monuments, public lands and the environment threatened by the politicians they paid to elect?
Did Savage Arms declare the president stole your land? Or did they falsely declare the president (doesn't matter which one) is coming for your guns?

What meaningful action of any kind has any gun company done? On any issue beyond the second amendment.
What benefit have they provided to you? What punishment have they spared you from with their profits? What they take away your money, what do they do with it?

Tiny little Patagonia does more for you, with less, on so many levels. You don't even have to shop there.
His buddy Doug Thompkins protected more land than most countries on the planet.
Two piece of **** climbing dirtbags.

Where is one guy in the gun industry doing the same? I do not say that in a ranting or angry tone. Guns have a PR problem. They have a social problem. They are 'not good neighbors'.
Not eveyone is Yvon Chionard 'model citizen'. But the gun guys are starting to turn into the rich eccentric crazy dude on the edge of town nobody wants around. The inaction is starting to punish those around town.
A good gun owner can ask, 'Why am I being punished'.... but so can a good parent who did nothing but get their kid to school on time.

It's pretty simple... people have vote$, corporations are now people too who have even more money to stuff in the ballot box.

People are voting for companies that do the right things for the community as a whole.
Patagonia has messed up some stuff... but the litany of good things they do buys them enough goodwill in the neighborhood that they can move on.
It's also been profitable enough for them that others are saying, ' I wanna do what they are doing'.

The gun industry may not have messed up anything really... but they have no goodwill to help them with public perception.

I understand my fellow gun owners, sportsman and hunters contribute lots of money directly and benefit the community.

Do gun supporters not understand that the gun companies are not doing the same?
That beyond that the inaction and unwillingness to participate is potentially much worse?

If the response is simply that the gun industry contributes to the NRA, what exactly is the NRA doing to improve the community around them?
Is REI responsible because they teach the ten essentials, basic map reading, and other outreach to it's members at a discount? Nope.

I'm little more impressed by touting the NRA providing sport specific education to it's membership at a discount is some laudable item to note.
Why would anyone join a 'club' and pay money to it if it didn't provide benefits to it's membership.

So again... beyond basic benefit to it's members, what does it do for non-members. What does it do for the community, what does it do for the planet.

Why should anyone 'vote' for them?

A smart gun retailer and good businessman might want to ask a simple question; Why?
Why are consumers not passionately advocating and supporting that business?
I hear gun folks say we must protect our second amendment, but in support of the NRA.
I hear environmental supporters say we must protect what we love... by supporting these companies.

If I was Savage Arms/Vista Outdoor... I'd wonder why I had ceded my branding power to the NRA. Why customers are not looking to support my product.
Why nobody blames a car company for an accident, but they blame my brand for one. Why do people love Tesla even though a feature on that car literally did kill someone?

Beyond the basic... I like this tool over that tool and ford vs chevy type rivalry... why do people look at gun companies as a tool manufacturer and not as a BRAND they are proud to support.
The answer is simple...
The gun industry says, the world is messed up and you need to protect yourself. Don't blame me, don't hold me accountable, don't tread on me, don't take my rights.

Folks like Patagonia, REI, Tesla say; the world is messed up. WE need to protect ourselves. I'm going to take responsibility for this. I'm going to hold myself accountable. Don't tread on anyone, and give everyone rights so they don't feel the need to come take mine because they have less.

So yar... I am perfectly willing to hold companies responsible for fixing the evil in the world.
They are people, we all live here and have to be good citizens of this planet.

[rocketsocks]

It would be reasonable to point out that there are easily two groups of requirements. One easily falls under the blanket of environmental stewardship. I think that is pretty straightforward.

The other group depends upon your labeling choice: Radical. Leftist. Communist. Socialist. Or jump to Nazi. Suppose there are a few other inflammatory labels one could apply too. Not being an expert at distilling anything down, let alone complex positions, into labels I'll leave that up to others.

Although the motivation behind such policy moves may be helpful. One could make human rights, basic decency, value of labor or simple moral arguments from a 'bleeding heart' standpoint. One could even throw the dramatic 'slave labor' and 'marginalization of non-white workers' around. Toss in some colonialism and native population oppression and you might win buzzword bingo.

And hard to disagree that those motivations are not real or might not apply or be used as justification in some form.

I think the more accurate term if you prefer one is economic engineering. The sewn goods industry is a mess. It is one of the largest industries on the planet where various unfavorable advantages affect the global economy. It's the unpleasant corner of the globe where horrible stuff happens. Socially, sure. But it's the social items that allow an unfair economic advantage to many companies. Currency manipulation, patent infringement, to flat out theft of intellectual property are all crimes committed and fueled by the simple fact that most of our sewn goods are produced in some dark corner someplace for tenths of pennies on the penny.

The reason the fabric mills, sweat shops, and other not so secret portions of the sewn goods industry were moved overseas is that Americans simply would not tolerate them. Pesky regulations and basic worker rights and safeties cost money. So we farm our dirty and expensive things out to places where such 'hindrances' do not exist. Our finished goods are imported back and the price we'd like to pay and we collectively look the other way. As we say in the trades, 'Can't see it from my house'. If the **** isn't in our backyard we can pretend our **** doesn't stink.

Retailers like REI are just as much, if not more so, economic victims of this continued black market of sewn goods. Years back when wally world, gap, and other retailers were supposedly working on this it was discovered that there were 'ethical' front companies who then turned around and hired subcontractors out the back door to continue to fill orders with the same folks they were trying to get rid of while pocketing the 'extra money' paid to them to do it right. Sewn goods can literally cost $1 or less. Hammock vendors in the US are facing problems with a flood of crap on Amazon. REI tries to build decent products and even economical 'house brand' items but are constantly undercut by these suppliers. A decent company like Osprey who tries to manufacture things right must compete against a pack retailer like VF corp with no such handcuffs on their profit making. REI puts them on the shelf, where as if you go to a traditional sporting goods store Osprey packs are pushed off the shelf by VF corp via exclusivity agreements.

You can buy widgets from a catalog of ali-baba sewn goods sources. Because you are buying finished goods from 'source, cut and sew' suppliers there are no regulations, no supply chain, nothing. I can buy a hammock for a few dollars, a sil-nylon tarp for less than $10. Tents for little more. Who knows what environmental costs were incurred, nor how many human rights atrocities were committed. It is a deep and very ugly issue on many fronts.

But the bottom line is always the bottom line. REI will not remain in business, nor will other suppliers of quality goods while the sewn goods industry remains in it's current form. Amazon sells anything, from anyone who can give them their cut. So do others. Common sense tells you that if you can buy a finished sewn good product for less than the cost of the raw material there is something seriously wrong.

Many of the 'fair trade' and other perceived social engineering you see is in large part financially motivated. It should be.

Only so many people can work at the Amazon distribution center, and even fewer if and when that center moves overseas. Unions have a proud tradition in this country, fair trade is simply a global variation on that theme. At the end of the day, if all one needs to do is cross an arbitrary line on a map to undercut your pay... all one can do is erase those lines via trade agreements and retailer demand. The only way to clean out these very dark corners of our global economy is for those who buy from this marketplace to stop doing so. That costs money.

All the feel good parts may have some genuine altruism behind them, but they help customers get on board and open their wallet to support the cost of these choices.






You can eradicate evil. The aforementioned actual Nazi's were eradicated when the good among us joined forces to remove that evil... at great cost.

Here's a simple question; How are you punished? What exactly has been taken?

If you choose not to shop at REI, have I been punished, has something been taken from me?
Should I counter protest your protest, demand you shop at REI? Contact my elected official?
If REI chooses not to shop at Vista outdoor, how does that hurt YOU?

One of Patagonia's original signature moves was organic cotton. A simple choice in the supply chain that greatly changed their business and the industry as a whole. The only one's 'punished' for this choice were industrial farms who profit from destroying our planet. A host of individual farmers were rewarded with continued contracts to farm with methods that let them sleep at night. Money was made, other companies paid attention, and one small part of the world became a better place.

We are a global community, even if we are not yet a global government. More and more your economic choices are your strongest and deepest political impact. More and more consumers vote for responsible products and deeply reward those companies that provide them. Who in turn reward us all with better wages, cleaner environments, and even political action.

Car companies do take steps to ensure their cars are safe, including new technology that literally does stop people from hitting other people. Consumers demand it, companies like Volvo and other brands market it.
Gun companies tried to implement 'safe guns' with chip or fingerprint readers. It is unclear who exactly killed that product, but it is clear that the free market and consumer rights were not high on the list of reasons.

Gun companies do take some measures to ensure safer products, it's good business. They don't want this PR nightmare, no company does. Rather than learning the lessons of companies like Patagonia, they march on with their heads buried in the same second amendment sand as ever.

Patagonia says, ' Don't buy this jacket' and doubles their customer base.
Gun companies say, 'Buy our product before they take it' and lose customers.

Patagonia says, ' This is our problem, so all sales on black Friday will go to the environment'... and they do record business that day and give away 10 million dollars but gain 100 million or more in sales from those customers in return.
Gun companies say this is not our problem, these are not our customers, we did not do this, no sympathy from us. Even simply donating a fraction of profits to a victims fund would be high on the list of recommendations from 'the most idiotic PR firm' you could possibly hire.

Patagonia takes a leadership roll; starts 1% for the planet, evaluates their supply chain, creates industry standards and drives all their competitors to do the same, vastly multiplying their impact on a global level.

I couldn't calculate the multiplier to figure out how much bigger the gun industry, or even an individual gun company is than Patagonia.
Certainly Patagonia has nowhere near the size of the NRA's reach and history.
So go beyond the bare minimum... what could be done. What lesson could be learned?

Is mental health the issue? Are gun companies donating 1% for the healthy mind.
Is it prescription drugs? Are gun companies dealing with this issue or teaming up with pharmacy companies to lobby politicians.
If a gun free zone poster is a false gesture? Are gun companies offering to train, equip and staff schools to prevent guns from entering.
If gun industry sales do fund so many outdoor activities, where are the companies when the national monuments, public lands and the environment threatened by the politicians they paid to elect?
Did Savage Arms declare the president stole your land? Or did they falsely declare the president (doesn't matter which one) is coming for your guns?

What meaningful action of any kind has any gun company done? On any issue beyond the second amendment.
What benefit have they provided to you? What punishment have they spared you from with their profits? What they take away your money, what do they do with it?

Tiny little Patagonia does more for you, with less, on so many levels. You don't even have to shop there.
His buddy Doug Thompkins protected more land than most countries on the planet.
Two piece of **** climbing dirtbags.

Where is one guy in the gun industry doing the same? I do not say that in a ranting or angry tone. Guns have a PR problem. They have a social problem. They are 'not good neighbors'.
Not eveyone is Yvon Chionard 'model citizen'. But the gun guys are starting to turn into the rich eccentric crazy dude on the edge of town nobody wants around. The inaction is starting to punish those around town.
A good gun owner can ask, 'Why am I being punished'.... but so can a good parent who did nothing but get their kid to school on time.

It's pretty simple... people have vote$, corporations are now people too who have even more money to stuff in the ballot box.

People are voting for companies that do the right things for the community as a whole.
Patagonia has messed up some stuff... but the litany of good things they do buys them enough goodwill in the neighborhood that they can move on.
It's also been profitable enough for them that others are saying, ' I wanna do what they are doing'.

The gun industry may not have messed up anything really... but they have no goodwill to help them with public perception.

I understand my fellow gun owners, sportsman and hunters contribute lots of money directly and benefit the community.

Do gun supporters not understand that the gun companies are not doing the same?
That beyond that the inaction and unwillingness to participate is potentially much worse?

If the response is simply that the gun industry contributes to the NRA, what exactly is the NRA doing to improve the community around them?
Is REI responsible because they teach the ten essentials, basic map reading, and other outreach to it's members at a discount? Nope.

I'm little more impressed by touting the NRA providing sport specific education to it's membership at a discount is some laudable item to note.
Why would anyone join a 'club' and pay money to it if it didn't provide benefits to it's membership.

So again... beyond basic benefit to it's members, what does it do for non-members. What does it do for the community, what does it do for the planet.

Why should anyone 'vote' for them?

A smart gun retailer and good businessman might want to ask a simple question; Why?
Why are consumers not passionately advocating and supporting that business?
I hear gun folks say we must protect our second amendment, but in support of the NRA.
I hear environmental supporters say we must protect what we love... by supporting these companies.

If I was Savage Arms/Vista Outdoor... I'd wonder why I had ceded my branding power to the NRA. Why customers are not looking to support my product.
Why nobody blames a car company for an accident, but they blame my brand for one. Why do people love Tesla even though a feature on that car literally did kill someone?

Beyond the basic... I like this tool over that tool and ford vs chevy type rivalry... why do people look at gun companies as a tool manufacturer and not as a BRAND they are proud to support.
The answer is simple...
The gun industry says, the world is messed up and you need to protect yourself. Don't blame me, don't hold me accountable, don't tread on me, don't take my rights.

Folks like Patagonia, REI, Tesla say; the world is messed up. WE need to protect ourselves. I'm going to take responsibility for this. I'm going to hold myself accountable. Don't tread on anyone, and give everyone rights so they don't feel the need to come take mine because they have less.

So yar... I am perfectly willing to hold companies responsible for fixing the evil in the world.
They are people, we all live here and have to be good citizens of this planet.
Bill you could have just written this and that would have been fine, but you muddied it up, a tatctic the left uses to rally anyone who is touched by a line item veto.


“It's pretty simple... people have vote$, corporations are now people too who have even more money to stuff in the ballot box”

[rocketsocks]

PS, not a bad summation and history lesson, kudos for that! But again let’s not be unclear about what it’s all about...the repeal of the 2nd.

[Just Bill]

I don't understand what Vista has to do w/ Parkland. Did the shooter even use a Savage Arms gun or BLACKHAWK! holster? "Social responsibility"? Who died and made REI the arbiter of community standards? Now that the gun control portion of our society realizes that legislation outlawing tactical rifles (no such thing as an "assault rifle" - all guns are engineered to destroy what their bullets hit) is never going to happen, they've turned to social shaming and strong arm tactics. [and "AR" refers to ArmaLite, not assault rifle]

While I'm always surprised to see that so many brands are owned by so few conglomerates, I don't want companies dictating values. I think that's undemocratic.

As a conservative, I can no longer watch Jimmy Kimmel, the Tonight Show or CNN. I have purchased my last Patagonia product, and I'm now cooling to my fav outdoor store.....If they keep this up....well..they're only a retailer. I can go elsewhere.
Parkland is a straw, doubtful it's the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back... All the straws combined have value. So truthfully nothing special about this one in isolation, but it's a straw just the same.

Vista is a supplier of goods to REI. Much as you exercise your right not to support brands contrary to your views, REI is doing the same, in response to a request by it's membership. As a co-op they are much more democratic than they are a 'corporation'.

Though they have not drawn a clear line in the sand on Vista and may reopen the relationship if it can take a productive direction.
In fact if one looks, it seems Vista may prove a valuable ally they are trying to keep on board. https://vistaoutdoor.com/social-responsibility/

I'm not the only one who wishes for a partnership between all outdoors people. REI appears to be pursuing that, while balancing all it's customers views.
Vista seems to acknowledge they do have a social responsibility, so even what one might perceive as a conservative or libertarian collection of brands believes they have a responsibility to dictate values.

Our democracy is rife with corporate money and 'outside' influence. There is nothing democratic about lobbyist or special interests on either side.
Like it or not... generally speaking these interests traditionally are aligned with conservative values or the republican party... but that is mildly unfair as it's debatable who exactly either party represents any longer.
It's fairly clear that our elected representatives do not represent many of us in any meaningful democratic form.

Companies already dictate your values. Pick your Koch or Soros depending on what side you prefer if decrying the undemocratic influence you oppose.
When you read about overwhelming majorities of american citizens (party affiliation discounted) in favor of various policy or legislative discussions that cross party lines being suppressed... it's quite clear one citizen one vote majority rules are no longer in effect. What goes to the floor, ends up in the budget, or shapes our democracy has little to do with the wishes of the majority. Depending on how dim a view you'd like to take one could argue our democracy is already dead. Some conservatives who stress the 'defend ourselves from a tyrannical government' seem to believe that revolution is the only remaining alternative.

I certainly don't advocate any ' your side is doing it so why not mine?' Especially as I tend to think of myself on OUR side. But at the end of the day I can't advocate ignorance of reality in hopes of a fantasy either.
One basic argument is that liberals have some "Utopian fantasy" on how things should be and I agree generally with that assessment.

But I don't think that is what REI or Patagonia is doing.
I think they are facing reality and playing by the rules of the game set forth. If money talks... guess they better spend money.
If government will not act, then do the most conservative thing one can think of and let the market handle it. REI's choice and stance is as libertarian as I can think of.
Patagonia and Yvon Chionard would fit right in with the most radical and conservative of all the founding fathers you'd care to hold up.

As a citizen, if my ballot does not produce a representative who supports my values... must I not play the game too if I wish to see meaningful action?

As for shopping elsewhere... where?
Consider your purchases as seriously as you'd consider your vote. Whatever your values, it is clear this is perhaps the most powerful way to express them.

As an aside;
There is a reason you are seeing a craft boom, farmers markets, cottage industry, local shopping, and other forms of alternative spending choices. Some of it is simply hipster BS.
But a good portion of it is simple values based spending. 'Woke' is a dumb term, but an apt one for the 18-35 year old millennial generation's spending habits on this issue generally.

More people are asking a simple question; Since it's getting so hard to come by, when I do let it go, where does my money go?

[Just Bill]

PS, not a bad summation and history lesson, kudos for that! But again let’s not be unclear about what it’s all about...the repeal of the 2nd.
Is it? I'm certainly quite capable of being naive. As Blackcloud pointed out... nobody is going to ban a gun they can't even define.
The danger to the 2nd IMO remains the complete unwillingness to talk, which has lead to the complete unwillingness to talk in response.
There is the potential for a critical mass to build, reactionary voters to vote, and idiot reactionary politicians to do something dumb.
I think digging in remains the greatest threat, as all it does is continue to embolden the extremes of the left... when the scale tips too far to either extreme the middle gets dragged along.

I'd like to think that the moderates among us can see that if something reasonable isn't done, something unreasonable will be.
I encourage reasonable gun owners to encourage their lobby to reach out a hand while the option still exists.

Bill you could have just written this and that would have been fine, but you muddied it up, a tatctic the left uses to rally anyone who is touched by a line item veto.


“It's pretty simple... people have vote$, corporations are now people too who have even more money to stuff in the ballot box”
Yar... hike in the rain enough you get muddy. Though no political motivation really from me. The trail goes left and right... I try to stay in the center.

[Just Bill]

PS...

All this started because of a petition. One without a ton of votes actually that according to this has not even met it's goal. The person who started it commented in several articles that they didn't ever really mean this to happen.
https://www.thepetitionsite.com/565/305/346/tell-rei-to-drop-vista-outdoor-products/

REI is a co-op.
For those of you who are gun owners AND customers of REI... why not start your own petition?
I personally feel REI's actions are reasonable.

But in this reactionary world, perhaps simply voicing your reaction to their stances via the same method is a productive choice.

[rocketsocks]

Is it? I'm certainly quite capable of being naive. As Blackcloud pointed out... nobody is going to ban a gun they can't even define.
The danger to the 2nd IMO remains the complete unwillingness to talk, which has lead to the complete unwillingness to talk in response.
There is the potential for a critical mass to build, reactionary voters to vote, and idiot reactionary politicians to do something dumb.
I think digging in remains the greatest threat, as all it does is continue to embolden the extremes of the left... when the scale tips too far to either extreme the middle gets dragged along.

I'd like to think that the moderates among us can see that if something reasonable isn't done, something unreasonable will be.
I encourage reasonable gun owners to encourage their lobby to reach out a hand while the option still exists.

Yar... hike in the rain enough you get muddy. Though no political motivation really from me. The trail goes left and right... I try to stay in the center.i agree, this isn’t a new arguement or movement, just the latest push of an ebb and flow. As my old grandmaw use to say “yur either fur or agin, which side are you on”

[rocketsocks]

PS...

All this started because of a petition. One without a ton of votes actually that according to this has not even met it's goal. The person who started it commented in several articles that they didn't ever really mean this to happen.
https://www.thepetitionsite.com/565/305/346/tell-rei-to-drop-vista-outdoor-products/

REI is a co-op.
For those of you who are gun owners AND customers of REI... why not start your own petition?
I personally feel REI's actions are reasonable.

But in this reactionary world, perhaps simply voicing your reaction to their stances via the same method is a productive choice.for me, my $$$ is my vote, the lack there of my petition. That’s just me, honestly I don’t expect to win this fight, just a matter of time...may take 30 more years.

[rocketsocks]

PS, the left of middle is well organized this time round, and runnin’ like a well oiled machine, really just a numbers game at this point, one of patrician in disguise...in plane sight.

[nsherry61]

. . . But again let’s not be unclear about what it’s all about...the repeal of the 2nd.
Sorry, I call complete BS on this. Nobody is attacking (okay, yes some extremists are) the second amendment. They are asking for reasonable measures to reduce gun violence. Which, by the way, should be the priority on all sides of the gun debate!!!

I don't believe a reasonable person would be against reducing the availability of deadly weapons (guns, bombs, whatever) to people with a past history or mental condition that suggests a high likelihood of using those weapons to harm innocent people. Taking an all or nothing approach like the NRA removes gun advocates from providing constructive input into the discussion, and yes, may well lead to a repeal of the second amendment simply because no reasonable alternatives were put forth and supported by enough people to see them take hold.


. . . honestly I don’t expect to win this fight, just a matter of time...may take 30 more years.

Now, that scares the crap out of me. Fight like heck for a reasonable compromise that has teeth and helps with the problems at hand so that the only other alternative is not to over react and actually damage the second amendment. From my reading of things, trying to push Vista Outdoor to be a constructive partner instead of supporting dysfunctional extremists is what REI is trying to do.

By the way, I also think that claiming the second amendment is about freedom to hunt and gather food for you family is BS also. The second amendment is clearly and unambiguously guaranteeing us the right to own and bare arms against some future tyrannical government, not the deer in my back yard. The problem we now face is how to support reasonable and responsible people with guns while taking constructive steps to stem gun violence. Sadly, there is not a clear path forward.

For what it's worth, one great step might be to reverse the phenomenally stupid Dickey Amendment from 1996 that cut funding for and essentially ended research into gun violence, so that maybe, just maybe, we could come up with some well educated options instead of short sighted emotional extremes.

[Just Bill]

i agree, this isn’t a new arguement or movement, just the latest push of an ebb and flow. As my old grandmaw use to say “yur either fur or agin, which side are you on”
Yar... and seeing as how coal miners are a coming back and I enjoy my female vocalists might as well toss this up by one of my favorites written by Florence Reece. (You can post yer Pete Seeger ;) )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hGRcScbmqg

for me, my $$$ is my vote, the lack there of my petition. That’s just me, honestly I don’t expect to win this fight, just a matter of time...may take 30 more years.


PS, the left of middle is well organized this time round, and runnin’ like a well oiled machine, really just a numbers game at this point, one of patrician in disguise...in plane sight.

But overall... my concern as well. As I said someplace in that mess, not like to be your guns but mine they come fer.

I don't take a 'slippery slope' position on environmentalism anymore than I do on the second amendment though, even though I care far more fer trees than tools. Life is a compromise.
There is a scary coalition building apt to do something foolish. Much like the wilderness, the right to bear arms is one not like to be appreciated until it's gone.

From what I understand- There are obviously conflicting reports.
this is roughly where it's at- http://www.newser.com/story/256957/parkland-students-want-these-5-gun-law-changes.html

1-A ban on semi-automatic weapons that fire high-velocity rounds

2-A ban on bump stocks and other accessories that simulate automatic weapons

3-The creation of a database for gun sales and universal background checks

4-Raise the legal age to purchase guns to 21

5-Close the gun show loophole and loophole for second-hand gun sales

Number one makes zero sense to me. It's unfortunately a non-starter. The terminology is wrong...
Nearly every gun that isn't a muzzle loader or bolt action is semi-auto.
Short of of a BB gun I'd think all rounds are high velocity.

Number two... I have no real issue. Perhaps just not interested in that particular set of tools enough to care to be blunt.

Number three- short of the fears of creating the list itself (which they don't seem to be asking for registration of past sales) No issue from me. If a gun is just a tool, and a car is just a vehicle; register sell em the same.

Four.. no biggy (fine with 72 hour wait for all guns too).

Five- goes right back to three.
Also, forces people to treat their local registered gun dealer like the currency exchange or DMV. As I said before... make the service free of charge (federally reimbursed).
Good for local gun shops, who are generally good stewards, responsible business folks and can be active in the community as a positive force.

Again... I don't see any of this as unreasonable except fer 1. Give em 80% of what they want, show we can can Rodney King our way through this. Most gun owners support this stuff anyway.

Yar... give me this inch and what is the yard they will ask for next?

Actually... if you skim (without getting bogged down in the details) and just read the bold bullet points. Seems the kids ain't so dumb and want to move on to the same things the NRA does.
If they do push further on the guns... there would finally be some moral high ground for the NRA to stand on in the open field of compromise.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/commentisfree/2018/mar/23/parkland-students-manifesto-americas-gun-laws


Give em nothing though...
My generation is quite small compared to the one ready to vote and the one bout to register. My generation isn't big enough to check or balance a thing.
When they finally get their turn moderation unlikely to prevail when yourn an mine fail to show them any model or precedence fer it.

[BuckeyeBill]

I have been reading this thread for some time now and tried to stay out of it, maybe should still stay out of it. For years I was brought up by parents who taught me to respect firearms. My father was in law enforcement and there were always several types of guns in our house. While in Boy Scouts He bought a .22 caliber riffle for me to use to learn gun safety and simple target shooting. As I got older, he would take me with him to the local police outdoor range when it was open for practice. It was here that I learned handgun shooting with a .38 caliber revolver. Lets just say I had a lot to learn. When the firearms instructor handed me a 12 gauge shotgun and with deer slugs in it and at 25 yards I was able to hit the target center X. After I turned 21, I joined my father in law enforcement and would practice shooting with all four department weapons (.357 Magnum, 12 Gauge Shotgun, 30-06 Winchester Rifle and M16 rifles, yes a full auto rifle). I would practice with my side arm at times until my hand and arm would cramp, sometimes firing 500 or rounds in one afternoon.

Why all this information? Back then I felt you had to shoot to be the best in case of a lawsuit. Also you would see people driving around in pickups with shotguns and rifles hanging in their back windows. If you had a problem with someone at school you didn't take a gun and start shooting, you took the guy outside and kicked his ass. Kids today think with a screw loose. Parents aren't paying enough attention to them to see the signs of depression or aggressive behavior that leads up to these shooting sprees at the schools. In most states if familys inform the police that there could be a problem, the police can have them sent for evaluation. There is no need to remove certain guns from the marketplace, just enforce the laws we already have, because even if every gun were ban the criminals, who don't care they are breaking the laws, would find them. I'm not the kind of person who stockpiles weapons and ammunition, but I am some one willing to defend the United States Constitution as it was written by our forefathers. It took them years to hammer out a document that they all could agree to, no matter which party they belonged to, which we should be doing today. If you look up "Assault Weapon" on Wiki, you see that there is several beliefs on exactly what an assault weapon really is. You will note there are several weapons used by law enforcement as sidearms.

As far as the REI situation, they can conduct business as they see fit. If you choose to agree with its new policy, keep buying. If you disagree, stop buying. Me I am going to keep buying even though I don't agree with their decision.
All I want is good gear at reasonable prices. It been said many times that "I may not agree with what you say or do, but I am willing to fight to the death your right to say/do it."

Stepping down off my soapbox.

[rocketsocks]

I have been reading this thread for some time now and tried to stay out of it, maybe should still stay out of it. For years I was brought up by parents who taught me to respect firearms. My father was in law enforcement and there were always several types of guns in our house. While in Boy Scouts He bought a .22 caliber riffle for me to use to learn gun safety and simple target shooting. As I got older, he would take me with him to the local police outdoor range when it was open for practice. It was here that I learned handgun shooting with a .38 caliber revolver. Lets just say I had a lot to learn. When the firearms instructor handed me a 12 gauge shotgun and with deer slugs in it and at 25 yards I was able to hit the target center X. After I turned 21, I joined my father in law enforcement and would practice shooting with all four department weapons (.357 Magnum, 12 Gauge Shotgun, 30-06 Winchester Rifle and M16 rifles, yes a full auto rifle). I would practice with my side arm at times until my hand and arm would cramp, sometimes firing 500 or rounds in one afternoon.

Why all this information? Back then I felt you had to shoot to be the best in case of a lawsuit. Also you would see people driving around in pickups with shotguns and rifles hanging in their back windows. If you had a problem with someone at school you didn't take a gun and start shooting, you took the guy outside and kicked his ass. Kids today think with a screw loose. Parents aren't paying enough attention to them to see the signs of depression or aggressive behavior that leads up to these shooting sprees at the schools. In most states if familys inform the police that there could be a problem, the police can have them sent for evaluation. There is no need to remove certain guns from the marketplace, just enforce the laws we already have, because even if every gun were ban the criminals, who don't care they are breaking the laws, would find them. I'm not the kind of person who stockpiles weapons and ammunition, but I am some one willing to defend the United States Constitution as it was written by our forefathers. It took them years to hammer out a document that they all could agree to, no matter which party they belonged to, which we should be doing today. If you look up "Assault Weapon" on Wiki, you see that there is several beliefs on exactly what an assault weapon really is. You will note there are several weapons used by law enforcement as sidearms.

As far as the REI situation, they can conduct business as they see fit. If you choose to agree with its new policy, keep buying. If you disagree, stop buying. Me I am going to keep buying even though I don't agree with their decision.
All I want is good gear at reasonable prices. It been said many times that "I may not agree with what you say or do, but I am willing to fight to the death your right to say/do it."

Stepping down off my soapbox.i think this’ll be my last on this, cause I haven’t thought this much in a while, and I’m tired now. I agree with most of those points, but one thing not talked about much in main stream media in response time in rural areas away from city’s protected by municipal law enforcement. If I was in the sticks and needed to protect myself and family I don’t want a single shot rifle, or a shot gun with the legislated rounds, I’d want as much fire power as was nessasary to achieve the objective, shut them mofo’s down, I can’t be waitin’ around to be saved. Anywho...I got all the hiking camping gear I need, so I don’t buy that much these days, and even less going forward, he’ll i may never backpack again. Yup, I’m done now too, been a good discussion and I appreciate the thread remaining open. Peace!

[Dogwood]

Those demonizing the NRA and arms manufacturers in ridiculous rhetorical questions should look deeper into the veracity of their assertions. Some good questions were posed that have good answers....if you look...before you....? :)

[BuckeyeBill]

Maybe the anti-gun coalition would allow the pro-gun people use them as protection when a shooting situation happens. It's always nice to shoot from cover.

[rickb]

Life is a compromise.

On most things yes.

The proverbial 2-way street.

This does not seem to apply to gun rights issues, however.

Have you ever seven situations where gun laws were modified (in the spirit of compromise) to the benefit of those who own them?

And not just on big-picture issues like reciprocity between states, but also on any number of smaller things like laws which make one a prohibited person in their state for something like smoking weed in one’s youth.

One might argue that gun owners do not deserve compromise but rather only offer it — but at least understand how they might see things in that respect.

Until then, those interested in my state might check out www.comm2A.org (http://www.comm2A.org) as an organization that would be deserving of support.

[MuddyWaters]

Those demonizing the NRA and arms manufacturers in ridiculous rhetorical questions should look deeper into the veracity of their assertions. Some good questions were posed that have good answers....if you look...before you....? :)

The NRA is composed of honest, tax paying, american citizens, who band together to support an important right.

. I have upwards of 20 firearms. Exactly 1 is registered in my name to me. Theres no tracking of firearms on person to person sales, and they will never ever be able to confiscate even a tiny portion . I have guns that were my great grandfathers .

[nsherry61]

I live in Massachusetts, a state with some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. I know (heck, they're my friends and I shoot with them) several avid gun owners/collectors/NRA members that are very proud of those laws, brag about them during any gun control debate, and yet they still have this extremist knee-jerk reaction of absolutely no to any attempt to even replicate Massachusetts laws elsewhere.

[rickb]

I live in Massachusetts...
As you are probably aware, the Framingham REI has had rather impressive solar car ports for a few years now.

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/article/20120701/NEWS/307019971

[Traveler]

Those demonizing the NRA and arms manufacturers in ridiculous rhetorical questions should look deeper into the veracity of their assertions. Some good questions were posed that have good answers....if you look...before you....? :)

Hyperbole and histrionics have not done much for me as opposed to rational debates. With the NRA promotion of arming teachers as opposed to supporting positions the NRA used to support like expanded background checks, I find their position to be in conflict with rational discussion. So called "conservative" politicians like Santorum stating teenage students should prepare for shootings by learning CPR instead of protesting for gun laws paints that entire political spectrum with tar that is difficult to remove with association. The optics radiating from that side of the political landscape is dystopian and frankly, very concerning.

The other side of the spectrum, and equally irrational, with the recent opine of a Supreme Court justice regarding the second amendment being outdated and should be amended or repealed giving some horsepower to the concept of a full ban of firearms is equally as specious as positions stated by the NRA.

It seems to me thinking people can meet somewhere between these two points. Some 97% of the population agrees with the concept of expanded background checks for gun purchases. Unless one is determined to be a wild eyed fanatic endorsing a ban on all guns or following the pontifications of some french guy with a $5.00 haircut, this would seem to me a good place to start.

That we can't even bring a concept supported by 97% of the voting public to a floor debate in Congress says a lot about the power of the 3% and the feckless nature of that body.

[nsherry61]

^^^ Well said Traveler ^^^ . . . especially that haircut bit . . . of course, that might also provide an opening for putting dispersions on Einstein.

[rickb]

So called "conservative" politicians like Santorum stating teenage students should prepare for shootings by learning CPR instead of protesting for gun laws paints that entire political spectrum with tar that is difficult to remove with association. The optics ...

You are 100% correct about the optics on that, but I do not think there were “so called politicians like Santorum” who said that - it was just him.

But since you brought it up, given there are 50 million children in public schools, I cannot help but wonder how many lives would be saved (in a wide variety of situations) if the older ones all learned CPR.

At least the politicians are not dumb enough to suggest the the risk children face from these kinds of shootings is statistically very, very small when compared with other risks (some gun related like gang violence) they face.

That would be political suicide — even if it is an incontrovertible fact.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/school-shootings-are-extraordinarily-rare-why-is-fear-of-them-driving-policy/2018/03/08/f4ead9f2-2247-11e8-94da-ebf9d112159c_story.html?utm_term=.dcdc0d6c5865

[nsherry61]

. . . the risk children face from these kinds of shootings is statistically very, very small when compared with other risks (some gun related like gang violence) they face. . .

If we are talking statistics, I would suggest that the biggest gun risk is not bad guys with guns but idiots with guns.

And personally, I liked the NRA a lot better years ago when it spent its money and energy promoting gun safety instead of political extremism.

[Tundracamper]

(Way too much to quote.)



The length of your posts alone (that seems to be a running theme with members that have "bill" in their names) is enough to prove my point - REI stuck their nose where it didn't belong. They can spend all the money they want saving the world and I'll spend my money at other retailers.

[rickb]

If we are talking statistics, I would suggest that the biggest gun risk is not bad guys with guns but idiots with guns.

Not so on the AT.

On the AT proper only two people have been wounded in by idiots with guns (hunting accidents).

[nsherry61]

. . . On the AT proper only two people have been wounded in by idiots with guns (hunting accidents).
How many have been wounded by bad guys?

Also, I'm not so sure that any of us have anything close a comprehensive knowledge of how many people have been injured by guns on the AT, although deaths, being more news worthy, we might have a handle on. How many morons that shoot themselves in the foot are really going to report it to a public news source?

And, for what it's worth, in the context of this discussion, I'm not so sure that only "the AT proper" is the center of the issue.

For what it's worth, statistically, I think suicides account for more than 1/2 of all gun deaths in the US at least in some years. And, nothing makes me more sick than reading about yet another kid getting ahold of a parent's gun and killing themselves, a sibling, or a friend!! Our nation contains far more irresponsible gun owners than it does bad guys with guns.

[rickb]

You could be right.

[Singto]

People who use the term "gun violence" are quite naive. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Simple.

[nsherry61]

People who use the term "gun violence" are quite naive. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Simple.
Singto, I wonder if you could parrot any more political cliches into your overly simplified claim of my naivety, and in doing so further exhibit your own lack of imagination and thoughtfulness?

[Just Bill]

The length of your posts alone (that seems to be a running theme with members that have "bill" in their names) is enough to prove my point - REI stuck their nose where it didn't belong. They can spend all the money they want saving the world and I'll spend my money at other retailers.

As is your right.

One could argue that trading zippy one liners or boiling things down to headlines is an issue for all of us and reducing our ability to discuss ideas.
Though I do believe that there are many truths can be distilled down to one line, even when the explanation of how to apply that truth could fill a book.

PS- In lakota my name is:
sunkmanitu wakinyan hotonpi hinhan

Quite a lengthy mess that translates roughly as; way too much to quote.
Bit ironic as Bill is an abbreviated form of William and folks going by Bill are saving many letters for any who read the name.

[Dogwood]

...I think suicides account for more than 1/2 of all gun deaths in the US at least in some years. And, nothing makes me more sick than reading about yet another kid getting ahold of a parent's gun and killing themselves, a sibling, or a friend!! Our nation contains far more irresponsible gun owners than it does bad guys with guns.



Support that in bold opinion. I was listening to you up to that pt.



One of the primary involvements of law enforcement, military, hunter education classes, the NRA, AND gun manufacturers is firearm responsibility and safety. And, for Just Bill's questions of what GREAT GOOD the NRA and gun manufacturers contribute to the community the NRA site was given. Seems no one read it though. There certainly are many knee jerk emotionally driven comments.



As opinion, the NRA does more to promote gun safety than any probably any other organization. The NRA's actions factored into three separate state Hunter Education classes, gaining Gun Ownership Cards/Purchase Permits, Concealed and Open Carry Permits, obtaining gun cabinets and gun trigger locks, and several gun safety classes.



As some are focusing on "assault" type firearms, "gun violence", and school shootings:



1) The vast majority of civilian deaths from firearms in the U.S. occurs from hand guns not "assault" type weapons by about a 20 to 1 margin.

Question: If one is truly concerned about "gun violence" the rational extends that hand guns need to be banned?


Question: In the recent Parkland School shooting, which was mentioned previously several times not by myself, why has not anyone mentioned the culpability of the Police Department's armed School Resource Officer's lack of response? These armed Officers are stationed at schools to intercede just for such situations protecting those who can't adequately protect themselves...children? Armed School Resource Officers were one of the highly touted answers to preventing these types of school shootings from happening...again. What policies and specific training should School Resources Officers adhere?


As another opinion, by my estimate most gun owners would agree to mental health and criminal background checks but details on how this would be exercised and who have access to the data would have to be laid out beforehand.

[Dogwood]

People who use the term "gun violence" are quite naive. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Simple.


Singto, I wonder if you could parrot any more political cliches into your overly simplified claim of my naivety, and in doing so further exhibit your own lack of imagination and thoughtfulness?

Singto is right! We're asking, we require, people to be personally responsible for their behavior. Are we going to cherry pick at what times that should apply? Firearms are a tool, that can be used as a peacekeeper or weapon...just as an infinite number of other tools and behaviors to maintain peace or commit violence. Firearms aren't just tools of violence!

[rickb]

How many have been wounded by bad guys?


Surprised the number is not common knowledge— at least with respect to the AT among those who frequent this forum.

Not going down that rabbit hole however.

The larger question is whether or not one should patronize a retailer that refuses to offer such products to as Camel Backs, because their parent organization did not see fit to follow their directive regarding product that is not even sold in their stores.

As supplier to the US armed forces and countless police, forest fighting and similar organizations, that slap in the face to Camel Back is simply unacceptable, IMHO.

[nsherry61]

. . . Our nation contains far more irresponsible gun owners than it does bad guys with guns.

Support that in bold opinion. I was listening to you up to that pt. . .

Happily, as it is just my opinion based on my own experience.

Before I answer further, let me clarify one thing: I know a number of gun enthusiasts that are also NRA members that take their guns and their shooting seriously. I have no problems with that . . . other than I think the NRA's politics are poison even as their educational efforts are laudable. I respect pretty much all the gun enthusiast/NRA members I know. They shoot regularly. They know their weapons. They use, carry, and store their weapons responsibly.

The bigger issue I have is all the people I know (more than the NRA gun enthusiasts that I know) that carry a handgun for person protection or keep guns in their house for whatever reason they choose to keep them, BUT, they don't have adequate training to use their gun responsibly in a critical situation and/or they don't shoot regularly, know their weapons, or use, carry and store their weapons in a safe manner. Thus, I call these people irresponsible gun owners.

I don't personally know anyone I would consider a bad guy with a gun.

Thus, my previously stated opinion.


P.S. For what it's worth, I have a locked closet full of guns, most of which I don't shoot and I know little about. They are mostly family heirlooms. I took an NRA safety class to be able to maintain possession of them in Massachusetts. There are no young children living in my house. The guns (other than the nerf guns) are stored in a locked closet separate from their ammo and are not loaded. I have no beef with guns or responsible gun owners. I have a big beef with irresponsible gun owners and the NRA's extreme views on any attempts to responsibly address gun violence in our country.

[rickb]

The bigger issue I have is all the people I know (more than the NRA gun enthusiasts that I know) that carry a handgun for person protection or keep guns in their house for whatever reason they choose to keep them, BUT, they don't have adequate training to use their gun responsibly in a critical situation and/or they don't shoot regularly, know their weapons, or use, carry and store their weapons in a safe manner. Thus, I call these people irresponsible gun owners.

In our state, simple failure to store their guns safely would also make the criminals:

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131L

We clearly travel in different circles.

[BuckeyeBill]

I still stand by what I said earlier, but would like to clarify that I do feel sorrow for the victims and their familys of these senseless school shootings. Some schools are hiring armed security and or arming their teachers, which in my opinion is a smart move on their part, while very sad they have to resort to such actions. There are situations that arise where the schools and individuals can't wait for law enforcement to arrive to take action. Throwing out hunting accidents and other "accidents", the rest of the people were wounded or killed by bad guys.

I am fortunate to live in a state that has passed a stand your ground law, which states I don't have to retreat from someone trying to do me or my family harm. What Singto said is correct if you break down the wording to common sense. Lay a gun on a table and there is absolutely no way that gun will harm or kill anyone, until it's pick up by a human being and then they have to conscientiously manipulate that gun so it will fire. They can do the same thing with a knife, machete, axe, chain saw...... You see where I am going with this. They are all tools until touch by a human being. Are the anti-gun people going to have a large protest asking congress to banned anything that can be used to kill someone? I don't think so and if they did we would be back in the stone age, without clubs because they can kill as well. One thing about it though, we would all be healthy vegetarians, until a wild animal ate us because we can't defend ourselves. They also need to ask themselves that given a choice of shooting someone who is causing harm to them or their family members what would they choose? I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count.

To Rickb, I am in total agreement with you about REI's stance on this topic. As a business owner myself, no one or other business is going to tell me how to conduct my business. It's called free enterprise.

[nsherry61]

. . . We clearly travel in different circles.

No doubt. If you run in NRA circles, you probably know a lot more people that are responsible gun owners than you know that are irresponsible gun owners. . . even if they are political leadites. ;-)

I only interact with a few gun enthusiasts on a regular basis and I have a fair number of stupid paranoid relatives. That being said, I would suggest that you probably still know more irresponsible gun owners than bad guys with guns, unless you hang out in some really questionable crowds.


. . . Lay a gun on a table and there is absolutely no way that gun will harm or kill anyone, until it's pick up by a human being and then they have to conscientiously manipulate that gun so it will fire. They can do the same thing with a knife, machete, axe, chain saw...... You see where I am going with this. . .
Yes. And I strongly disagree. We don't allow people to carry swords in public in post places. We don't allow bombs or seriously dangerous drugs to be available to people even though they aren't doing any harm until someone picks them up. Your argument is as hollow as, well, the extremists on either side of the gun debate.

I am not making and never intend on making a case for taking away your guns or mine. I would like to make a case to reduce the availability of guns (and other dangerous weapons) to people that are not likely to use them in a responsible manner. As a personal safety advocate (which I am assuming you are from your writing) I would assume you want the same thing.

[BuckeyeBill]

Yes. And I strongly disagree. We don't allow people to carry swords in public in post places. We don't allow bombs or seriously dangerous drugs to be available to people even though they aren't doing any harm until someone picks them up. Your argument is as hollow as, well, the extremists on either side of the gun debate.

I am not making and never intend on making a case for taking away your guns or mine. I would like to make a case to reduce the availability of guns (and other dangerous weapons) to people that are not likely to use them in a responsible manner. As a personal safety advocate (which I am assuming you are from your writing) I would assume you want the same thing.

You say you strongly disagree, but you you said exactly what I said: Yes. And I strongly disagree. We don't allow people to carry swords in public in post places. We don't allow bombs or seriously dangerous drugs to be available to people even though they aren't doing any harm until someone picks them up. Sounds like your argument is hollow to me. What's it going to be? I never mentioned bombs or drugs, but again they are safe until some one picks it up.

[double d]

Someone wrote this recently on WB, "People who use the term "gun violence" are quite naive. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Simple."

Correct and that's why countries that have very strong gun laws don't have their citizens kill each other the way Americans do. Simple. And yes, I'm a firearm owner and I have a conceal carry permit in my state as well. The data trumps anyone's opinion.

REI has every right to impose whatever policy and opinion they like (within the limits of the law of course), and if you personally don't like it, shop elsewhere. Simple. REI has been IMO a great company to a member of. They give back to numerous environmental causes, which benefit all of us. With the current anti-National Park, Conservation and EPA Administration in power now, REI is a much needed company.

[Just Bill]

Support that in bold opinion. I was listening to you up to that pt.



One of the primary involvements of law enforcement, military, hunter education classes, the NRA, AND gun manufacturers is firearm responsibility and safety. And, for Just Bill's questions of what GREAT GOOD the NRA and gun manufacturers contribute to the community the NRA site was given. Seems no one read it though. There certainly are many knee jerk emotionally driven comments.



As opinion, the NRA does more to promote gun safety than any probably any other organization. The NRA's actions factored into three separate state Hunter Education classes, gaining Gun Ownership Cards/Purchase Permits, Concealed and Open Carry Permits, obtaining gun cabinets and gun trigger locks, and several gun safety classes.



As some are focusing on "assault" type firearms, "gun violence", and school shootings:



1) The vast majority of civilian deaths from firearms in the U.S. occurs from hand guns not "assault" type weapons by about a 20 to 1 margin.

Question: If one is truly concerned about "gun violence" the rational extends that hand guns need to be banned?


Question: In the recent Parkland School shooting, which was mentioned previously several times not by myself, why has not anyone mentioned the culpability of the Police Department's armed School Resource Officer's lack of response? These armed Officers are stationed at schools to intercede just for such situations protecting those who can't adequately protect themselves...children? Armed School Resource Officers were one of the highly touted answers to preventing these types of school shootings from happening...again. What policies and specific training should School Resources Officers adhere?


As another opinion, by my estimate most gun owners would agree to mental health and criminal background checks but details on how this would be exercised and who have access to the data would have to be laid out beforehand.
I looked at yer link. But didn't change the point I was making any.

I agree that many organizations teach owner responsibility and safety. This includes the NRA. Fer me, it was boy scouts and shooting with my father and his friends. For some it's 4H.
When I sold firearms I had little or no interaction with the NRA beyond a little stack of pamphlets mailed to be placed on the gun counter, basically encouraging folks to join up.
Nothing was required of me when I got my Illinois FOID card. In Indiana I don't have to do a thing, it's harder to get my drivers license, vehicle plate, or emissions test.
The NRA doesn't run the concealed carry courses in either state. One blue, one red... neither with much NRA involvement.
Hunter safety courses are primarily local- with three of fifty states shown covered here; https://nra.yourlearningportal.com/courses/hunter-education

It's debatable if the work the NRA does is constructive, but there is no doubt it is the primary group working to protect the second amendment. As your link pointed out, this was not the founding function of the NRA but a reasonable direction for them to have moved into. NRA tv is much more volatile than any action REI has taken in my opinion, but that's not that important.

REI offers responsibility and safety courses as well. Teaching LNT, ten essentials, map and compass and dozens of other classes for free or a deep discount. That has expanded over the years to everything from talks in store to classes and trips. Really nothing different than what the NRA does.

We both strongly agree in what Patagonia has done and don't need to rehash that.

Selling a product and offering some product education is something.The point was not that the gun industry didn't do anything, but that they could do more.
The question I was asking is where is the Patagonia of the gun industry?

REI is following in Patagonia's footsteps. Not perfectly, but they are making the choice to go above and beyond.

The NRA is not a retailer or manufacturer. So let's just drop them from the conversation for a second.

Smith and Wesson is not S&W any longer: http://www.aob.com/ Though that appears to be a branding/PR move to avoid stock swings more than anything.
Colt is constantly bankrupt and Savage is Vista. Many companies get murky fast or are owned by questionable folks. Many companies are European or international.
It's not super clear who owns who any more but after a century or more now there are not many USA gun companies that don't fall into the corporation/conglomerate bucket.




As I said earlier...
I think we all agree that the term 'gun violence' is misleading with little or no basis in reality.

The CDC has been granted permission to study gun violence in the recent omnibus budget (the aforementioned Dickey Ammendment.)
Rather than going above and beyond to promote and perhaps prove the various 'tool' arguments, the NRA has blocked any and all study that might prove such things.

If gang activity, suicide, police shootings, and other 'bad guy' deaths are real contributes to bad science, why not perform the research independently rather than invest in lobbying to prevent or suppress it?
Why not do what Patagonia did with dams and fund your own studies to shine light on the problem in society, then lobby for your cause once you have firm footing to stand on.

If mental health is the issue, where is the fund established?
Patagonia created in house child care, flex schedules, and other programs to ensure the happiness of it's workers and has been consulted by many companies.
Is there a firearms company hosting a suicide prevention hotline, donating to one, or attempting to reduce gun suicide?

Is there a reason not to focus on pharmaceuticals? It's brought up often by gun rights advocates, why not invest in that research?
Or is it too problematic to deal with as there are multiple levels of political and membership conflicts... from the senator paid by a drug company to the NRA member who also takes that drug?
How do you deal with a hard problem like cotton making your employees sick and destroying the land when you sell cotton t-shirts for a living?
That's almost as suicidal as telling people not to use piton's anymore ever when the only product you sell is Pitons.

Are many of these issues societal and beyond the reach of any individual company? Absolutely.

Did that stop Patagonia? Absolutely not.
Have hundreds of companies followed Patagonia's example, initiatives, and work? Yes.

So again, who is the gun industry equivalent, or even pale comparison?

For the most part (I'm sure there is other charitable giving) it appears that the primary 'greater good' performed is to write checks to the NRA.
Much like 'project RED' is used in other industries there are often specific guns manufactured with the express purpose of raising money for the NRA.

Since you mentioned trigger locks... I believe you are old enough to remember when the NRA nearly put Smith and Wesson out of business for working with the Clinton administration on some simple and practical gun policy reform and safety measures?
That was the closest you ever saw to a gun manufacturer attempting to police themselves, make things safer, and take greater responsibility.
And the closest our country came to meaningful discussion.

Speaking of triggered snowflakes and emotional kneejerks... the NRA boycotted S&W and nearly crushed them.

So it's not hard for me to answer my own question... Where is the Patagonia of the gun industry?
The NRA won't allow anyone to go rogue.

So no... some gun safety classes and '1/10th of 1% of sales' going to a few basic services leftover from a bygone era don't really impress me.

I'm open to hearing of the 'good guy with a gun' in the corporate world.

I KNOW that there are millions of good and responsible gun owners. I also accept the idiots bound to arrive in any free society and have no issue with them either.

I am still pointing out that I support gun ownership and gun owner's rights. I fully agree with the tool argument.

I am not anti-gun, though I understand why some gun reform is needed, especially if the topic of conversation that must take place before we can move on to actual issues relevant to mass shootings.

I'd prefer nobody had to discuss this issue at all. Unfortunately, like all rights... you have the right to do nearly anything you want as long as it does not impact another's rights.
The right to defend yourself with a gun is just as valid as the right to defend yourself from a gun. Like it or not, some folks are not moving past that.


We are all citizens of the USA, we all work within that group identity to fix the greater society we belong to.
I think a large issue is that we conflate our support of a group with our personal identity, and take personal offense when discussing ideas that pertain to that group.
We can criticize a group AND still be a member of it.

Some of us just live here, some of us participate.
I do not see any good corporate citizens in our society from this group, no greater good being done.

It is their right to simply produce a product and sell it on the open market. To simply exchange funds for goods...
Do they have a responsibility to prevent misuse of their product or owe society anything at all? Absolutely not.

Would the world be a better place if more corporations behaved like Patagonia?
Absolutely.

[Alligator]

A good many posters here who are aware of site rules yet have been breaking them anyway. No politics, no arguing gun control. But when given the opening, people keep taking it. How is that responsible?

We do not allow gun control threads. If REI wants to have that discussion, contact REI.

Thread closed.