View Full Version : Steep parts of AT
I thought the thread "Any specific training to help with knee pain from descents " was a good one and didn't want to hijack the post so I will ask my question here for those who have been there;
In your estimation, what percentage of the trail is more than a 45 degree (just an arbitrary number) incline or decline? I want to hike it next year and my weakness is my left knee. I had a torn meniscus about 15 years ago which was corrected with surgery. I also had a cortisone shot a year ago which also helped greatly. I am walking 5-10 miles several times a week with 30 lbs in my pack. I'm not a runner but I can jog 3 miles or so on my treadmill with no problems. My stamina and legs are definitely getting stronger. Watching YouTube videos I see lots of level ground and slight inclines which would be no problem. So being concerned about what I would be facing, how much of the trail is actually step ascents and descents that would test my knee? Many thanks.
Of the almost 2200 miles I bet that about 1 or 2 % is 45 degrees. Most people can name the bad ones for North bounders like the Priest in Va, into Port Clinton Pa, the trail into Bennington Vt, the north side of Mousselaki, Webter cliff, Pinkham, Madison, Baxter Peak. It's different for South Bounders.
much like the recent thread about measuring distance and the idea of something like the "coastline paradox" someone brought up, it all depends on perspective.
how often does one encounter, lets say 3 feet, to pick an arbitrary reasonable constant, that exceeds 45 degrees? often.
how often does one lets say 1/2 a mile, to pick another, that exceeds 45 degrees?
i'm going to go out on a very small limb and say never once.
johnacraft
04-13-2018, 15:25
In your estimation, what percentage of the trail is more than a 45 degree (just an arbitrary number) incline or decline?
None, if that much. OK, maybe a few feet somewhere in Mahoosuc Notch.
A 45 degree incline is a 100% grade - one unit of "rise" during one unit of "run." You would climb one mile for every mile of horizontal distance. No hiking trail is that steep.
The climb from Crawford Notch to Mt. Webster (3,910 feet of elevation gain in 4.7 miles) is an average 15.7% grade, equivalent to about a 9 degree incline.
The climb from Davenport Gap to Mt. Cammerer (3,075 feet of elevation gain in 5.2 miles) is an average 11% grade, equivalent to about a 6 degree incline.
Another poster recently posted that the average incline is around 9%, or an incline of 5.1 degrees.
A 45 degree incline is a 100% grade - one unit of "rise" during one unit of "run." You would climb one mile for every mile of horizontal distance. No hiking trail is that steep.
is there even anywhere on the tral that rises over 5K feet in lets say2 miles? or 2500 feet in half a mile? i dont believe there is. those would be halfway to 45 degrees.
i mentioned it in the other thread, to no avail- we think the trail is like this because we look at vertically exaggerated elevation profiles. an elevation profile without any such exaggeration would be a nearly flat line and useless, which is why the exaggeration is applied.
johnacraft
04-13-2018, 15:52
is there even anywhere on the tral that rises over 5K feet in lets say2 miles? or 2500 feet in half a mile? i dont believe there is. those would be halfway to 45 degrees.
Isn't there an aluminum ladder somewhere in Massachusetts? Because that's what we're talking about. 45 degrees is even steeper than what's code for a staircase.
The Mt. Washington Cog Railroad averages about 25% grade. I once walked up the path next to the bottom portion (from the base station to the first water tank), and that's far steeper than any trail I've ever hiked.
The South Kaibab Trail was engineered for a very stable incline - it's about 13%. The upper North Kaibab is about the same. Ditto the Baxter Creek trail to Mt. Sterling in GSMNP.
Isn't there an aluminum ladder somewhere in Massachusetts? Because that's what we're talking about. 45 degrees is even steeper than what's code for a staircase.
maybe, as well as elsewhere. hence my point that if measuring in very short distances you can find near vertical spots, but not over any sort of distance.
i think the real question the OP is asking without knowing is something like this- what areas of the trail have the highest concentration of short distances (as in 5 ft or less) where the grade exceeds 45 degrees?
i have no idea howd you'd actually measure such a thing or what amount of concentration would make something feel especially steep.
for the record, the steepest trail i've ever walked on is actually a short side trail off of the AT- the devil's pulpit trail in lehigh gap. i dont think it is even 1/4" a mile long, but it is very near to climb straight down and back up again. on several occasions i used the trees growing alongside the trail as a ladder. it may be something like a 30 or 35% incline.
btw, my above post should read 2500 in 1 mile, not 1/2.
johnnybgood
04-13-2018, 16:08
I imagine the cumulative frequency of daily hiking will likely test that knee more than any steep climbs or descents. Wear a orthopedic knee brace for more stability.
this post covers this subject quite well and also covers the pct and cdt...
http://www.guthookhikes.com/2015/01/what-are-the-steepest-climbs-on-the-at-and-pct.html
it would help if i added the link dammit
Katahdin is the single largest elevation gain on the AT at 4188 feet in 5.3 miles. Most of that is in the middle 3 mile section. The first and last miles are very gentle slopes. Steep hiking here in NH and Maine is 1000ft elevation gain per mile. What's that? 1/5 slope? 20% roughly? Thats when you really know the trail is steep. There are sections that are steeper, but that's not really hiking, its non-technical climbing.
http://www.guthookhikes.com/2015/01/what-are-the-steepest-climbs-on-the-at-and-pct.html
it would help if i added the link dammit
HAH that reminds me of an argument i had with someone on here over whether or the climb up garfield was difficult or not.
HAH that reminds me of an argument i had with someone on here over whether or the climb up garfield was difficult or not.
Really depends on how fast you want to go :-)
Really depends on how fast you want to go :-)
if one puts any credence into this way of breaking it down, garfield and south twin back to back may just be the hardest section of the AT of a few miles or so. i dont think thats one very many people name when someone does the "whats the hardest section of the AT" thread every so often.
i'm glad to see nothing between grafton notch and rangeley landed anywhere in sight. i would have really started to believe i had somehow blocked that hike from my memory.
johnacraft
04-13-2018, 17:04
Steep hiking here in NH and Maine is 1000ft elevation gain per mile. What's that? 1/5 slope? 20% roughly?
Pretty close - 18.9%, 10.9 degree incline.
I guess my "45 degree" question was a bit vague.
From what I get from all the posts, you are saying that there are inclines and declines of different degree but certainly not steep enough to suggest that I just stay home and forget it.
I will continue my training. Thanks
I guess my "45 degree" question was a bit vague.
From what I get from all the posts, you are saying that there are inclines and declines of different degree but certainly not steep enough to suggest that I just stay home and forget it.
I will continue my training. Thanks
i think the point is more that "steep" is all very relative.
and also that it is not as steep as one may think.
thats not by any means to imply that since none of the trail is steeper than 45 degrees that none of it is steep or that it is all easy.
Feral Bill
04-13-2018, 17:43
Lets not forget that a long (2-10 mile) 10% down grade can seriously beat you up if you let it.
MuddyWaters
04-13-2018, 17:55
Very little like 100% grade except for stairsteps and ladders.
In hiking , 1000 '/mile is pretty steep. 2000'/mile is very taxing.
illabelle
04-13-2018, 18:08
Lets not forget that a long (2-10 mile) 10% down grade can seriously beat you up if you let it.
We hiked down off the Priest a few weeks ago. Five miles of steep down. I was more beat up by that descent than I was coming down Katahdin. The Priest is a Beast!
Dan Roper
04-13-2018, 18:46
700 feet elevation gain per miles is the toughest non-AT climbs I've done - both Tearbritches in Georgia's Cohutta Wilderness and the North Rim of the Grand Canyon, starting at Redwall Bridge, climb about 2,100 feet over three miles.
700 feet per mile is darned tough.
I've done the AT from Springer to The Scales in Grayson Highlands, Virginia. There is no three-mile stretch like those two. I don't think there's a two-mile stretch. The steepest climb I've done on the AT is Jacob's Ladder, which may approach 700 feet over a mile. The second steepest is probably Albert Mountain, but that's just one-third of a mile. Most of the other long, tough climbs are 500- to 600-feet per mile, I think included Wesser to Cheoah Bald. There's a big difference between 500-feet- and 700-feet per mile.
The northbound climb up Roan Mountain used to have a fearsome reputation, but it had been modified by switchbacks when I arrived in 2015. It wasn't that bad (I'm guessing about 500-feet per mile). Before the modifications it must've been a booger bear.
Bottom line is this: for me, at age 57, I don't worry about 300- or 400-feet per mile; I know 500- to 600-feet per mile over an extended distance will hurt; at 700-feet per mile, I "gird up my loins" for a bear of a climb.
MuddyWaters
04-13-2018, 20:09
http://www.guthookhikes.com/2015/01/what-are-the-steepest-climbs-on-the-at-and-pct.html
BuckeyeBill
04-13-2018, 21:08
If anyone has a copy of the 2013 Thru-Hiker's Companion, it shows a guy crawling up Katahdin with his hands and feet. Yes he was wearing a day pack.
... percentage of the trail is more than a 45 degree ... incline or decline? ...weakness is my left knee. ... cortisone shot a year ago ...walking 5-10 miles several times a week with 30 lbs in my pack. I....
You can do it... but you have to be realistic about how the cards are stacked against you...
My last FOUR hiking companions got off the trail due to knee issues (1st...meniscus that hadn't been repaired enough ... he ended up with a full ACL replacement), 2nd - knee issues that weren't addressed, 3rd - history of meniscus surgery with some pain hiking later that was not addressed; 4th: former knee injury that was not confirmed as heeled prior to hiking.
What I am getting at is... you may have had the correction 15 years ago, but if you had to have a shot last year (yes, I am familiar with that because my husband was one of those mentioned above who got a shot in the year prior...), your knee might not be able to handle it.
It has no bearing on the "# of degrees up and down" - rather - it is about the amount of TIMES up and down. This past year, even I - who has NEVER had a knee issue, started feeling discomfort on the downs - enough that I purchased knee braces.
If you are walking 5-10 miles several times a week in the flat-lander Texas (like Michigan), plan to walk 4-5 miles each day when you start the AT. Plan to spend three to four times the amount of time walking.
Can you do it? Yes, but realize it will take getting used to and will take much more time... But, it is worth it!!!
Jacob's Ladder was the worst ascent that I remember. It sucked. It is flat and steep so you can't even get comfortable taking a break.
I'm pretty sure it was Pinkham's Notch that was my worst descent. There is a campground at the bottom and it came at the end of our hiking day. The grade on the map doesn't really show the difficulty of that downhill. It's like walking down stairs except that each stair step is three feet high. If your knees can make it down this one they can complete the trail. What an ordeal.
peakbagger
04-14-2018, 05:38
Jacob's Ladder was the worst ascent that I remember. It sucked. It is flat and steep so you can't even get comfortable taking a break.
I'm pretty sure it was Pinkham's Notch that was my worst descent. There is a campground at the bottom and it came at the end of our hiking day. The grade on the map doesn't really show the difficulty of that downhill. It's like walking down stairs except that each stair step is three feet high. If your knees can make it down this one they can complete the trail. What an ordeal.
If you were Northbound I expect the section you are mentioning is the Osgood trail section from the top of Madison down to the Osgood tentsite. There are steeper sections in the whites but this trail is relentlessly steep but graded well enough that is can be walked down rather than scrambled down. It also is sustained elevation drop longer than most other sections of the AT in the whites. I think that makes a difference, if you observe someone scrambling down a steep slope that is paved with boulders like the Twinway from South Twin to Galehead, they usually are treating it as long series of uneven steps. I think most people with a pack on are taking individual steps and with a very short break in between steps. They can stop after each step. Where the knee damage can occur is when the person is running down the slope where the hiker is carrying momentum and can not readily stop after every step.
It's not useful to talk about angles like 45 degrees... In nature slopes fail if they are above the angle of repose of about 33 degrees. The materials are rarely strong enough to hold themselves up at steeper angles (for long; an exception is young glacial canyon walls). The steepest mountains generally are young volcanos, whose sides are almost exactly 33 degrees. Yeah I know that dr wikipedia has a different answer...
MuddyWaters
04-14-2018, 07:32
It's not useful to talk about angles like 45 degrees... In nature slopes fail if they are above the angle of repose of about 33 degrees. The materials are rarely strong enough to hold themselves up at steeper angles (for long; an exception is young glacial canyon walls). The steepest mountains generally are young volcanos, whose sides are almost exactly 33 degrees. Yeah I know that dr wikipedia has a different answer...
42459
The tops of most mountains are rock outcroppings, and considerable steeper than flanks of eroded fill, and can be quite vertical.
42460
Which is why we do have steep trails, and double black diamond ski runs from 35-50 degrees for short distances.
42461
Solid rock has no angle of repose
But as i linked to guthooks analysis above, steepest section of AT approaches 2000'/mile for half mile out of pinkham notch. All been discussed before. No one wants to search.
Modern trailbuilding attempts to limit to 7-8% grade, about 400'/mile . Studies have shown people walk that most efficiently.
the cutoff line used is 15%, as opposed to 45%, but this is the answer the OP was looking for-
http://www.guthookhikes.com/2015/02/slope-analysis-of-at-pct-cdt.html
I did Osgood trail going South bound over Madison. The nobo hikers I talked to at Osgood Tentsite the night before were absolutely drained by the descent off of Madison. The worst descent I can recall after a long day was coming off the Bigelow's and stopping at Stafford Brook campsite.
Puddlefish
04-14-2018, 09:54
I find the "smoothness" of the trail on steep stretches to be more impactful to me, rather than just the grade. That is, if the trail is rocky and you have the chance to place your whole foot down flat once in a while, it helps. I think it was Jacobs Ladder (I have a crappy memory,) that I felt like I was perched up on the balls of my feet/toes for half an hour. Put a lot of pressure on my calves and Achilles tendons.
Maybe I'm just not flexible enough.
Crossing into Maine on the AT can get quite steep.
https://youtu.be/tf3JXah7z14
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If you were Northbound I expect the section you are mentioning is the Osgood trail section from the top of Madison down to the Osgood tentsite. There are steeper sections in the whites but this trail is relentlessly steep but graded well enough that is can be walked down rather than scrambled down. It also is sustained elevation drop longer than most other sections of the AT in the whites. I think that makes a difference, if you observe someone scrambling down a steep slope that is paved with boulders like the Twinway from South Twin to Galehead, they usually are treating it as long series of uneven steps. I think most people with a pack on are taking individual steps and with a very short break in between steps. They can stop after each step. Where the knee damage can occur is when the person is running down the slope where the hiker is carrying momentum and can not readily stop after every step.
Thanks for clarifying that! Still have bad thoughts thinking about it.
Martzy13
04-14-2018, 11:15
For northbounders, the descent into Duncannon, PA was the sketchiest of the trail in my opinion. It's super fine gravel on a crazy steep decline. Albert Mtn. in NC was pretty steep for a hot minute, as well as Kelly Knob in Georgia (NC?). After these two climbs, you will be getting those legs underneath you, and a steep climb will simply be a sopping wet inconvenience, nothing more.
For northbounders, the descent into Duncannon, PA was the sketchiest of the trail in my opinion. It's super fine gravel on a crazy steep decline. Albert Mtn. in NC was pretty steep for a hot minute, as well as Kelly Knob in Georgia (NC?). After these two climbs, you will be getting those legs underneath you, and a steep climb will simply be a sopping wet inconvenience, nothing more.
i think guthook needs to make a new chart... steepest AT climbs south of... glencliffe? greylock?
it would be illuminating, in part, to see just how much steeper, by his measure, the whites are.
LittleTim
04-14-2018, 20:00
For northbounders, the descent into Duncannon, PA was the sketchiest of the trail in my opinion. It's super fine gravel on a crazy steep decline. Albert Mtn. in NC was pretty steep for a hot minute, as well as Kelly Knob in Georgia (NC?). After these two climbs, you will be getting those legs underneath you, and a steep climb will simply be a sopping wet inconvenience, nothing more.
I believe that there may have been a reroute since you did the Duncannon descent. It's now a kitten, a bolder filled stairway of limestone. Although for anyone reading, after the vista lookout before descending, keep hiking toward the river and you'll see what he's talking about. It's sketchy in some parts but a fun way down the mountain.
There's a non-At trail here in PA, the chuck keipler, that otherwise is absolutely fantastic except for a few descents that have nothing under you except forest duft (or mud). Short 200 foot descents are terrifying. So yes, trail maintenance is utmost importance to safeness in steepness. There's another one called 1000 steps (that's actually closer to 1500) that may be closer to your 45 degrees that I've ever seen, but it is also a joy to go up. Not so much to go down, but you'll remember it for the next week guaranteed.
Great info.
the cutoff line used is 15%, as opposed to 45%, but this is the answer the OP was looking for-
http://www.guthookhikes.com/2015/02/slope-analysis-of-at-pct-cdt.html
Slo-go'en
04-14-2018, 22:40
There are a few near vertical climbs or descents in Vt, NH, and ME. They tend to be short, a few 100 feet so they don't show up on profile maps. I find the long, drawn out descents to be more damaging.
Berserker
04-16-2018, 13:03
I thought the thread "Any specific training to help with knee pain from descents " was a good one and didn't want to hijack the post so I will ask my question here for those who have been there;
In your estimation, what percentage of the trail is more than a 45 degree (just an arbitrary number) incline or decline? I want to hike it next year and my weakness is my left knee. I had a torn meniscus about 15 years ago which was corrected with surgery. I also had a cortisone shot a year ago which also helped greatly. I am walking 5-10 miles several times a week with 30 lbs in my pack. I'm not a runner but I can jog 3 miles or so on my treadmill with no problems. My stamina and legs are definitely getting stronger. Watching YouTube videos I see lots of level ground and slight inclines which would be no problem. So being concerned about what I would be facing, how much of the trail is actually step ascents and descents that would test my knee? Many thanks.
I think what you really want to know is how will your knee do. I've had lots of nagging issues with my knees as have a lot of folks here. The main things that will get you are not necessarily always steep stuff. Cumulative ups an downs can get ya too. So if you do a lot of miles where you are going up and down several times a day that can cause a problem. Another gotcha is that there a many long descents on the AT that aren't particularly steep, but the length of them can cause issues. So anyway, just throwing that out there for your consideration.
One Half
04-17-2018, 08:59
If you were Northbound I expect the section you are mentioning is the Osgood trail section from the top of Madison down to the Osgood tentsite. There are steeper sections in the whites but this trail is relentlessly steep but graded well enough that is can be walked down rather than scrambled down. It also is sustained elevation drop longer than most other sections of the AT in the whites. I think that makes a difference, if you observe someone scrambling down a steep slope that is paved with boulders like the Twinway from South Twin to Galehead, they usually are treating it as long series of uneven steps. I think most people with a pack on are taking individual steps and with a very short break in between steps. They can stop after each step. Where the knee damage can occur is when the person is running down the slope where the hiker is carrying momentum and can not readily stop after every step.
Just have to mention that a friend of mine adopted that section a number of years ago and we would help maintain it - from the tentsite up to the split? It was just over a mile IIRC and had a very large number of water bars, more when we were done than when we started actually. What a beast that section is!
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