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Cue
05-02-2018, 07:11
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/01/health/ticks-mosquitoes-diseases.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

maindigs
05-03-2018, 20:02
Ticks are everywhere and Lyme disease is no joke. From experience, not only is it hard to diagnose but symptoms can last for a long time if it is untreated. Once you get it, getting back to full strength takes some time.

If you do get bitten by a tick, do yourself a favor and get a Lyme disease test (https://www.accesalabs.com/Lyme-Disease-Test) to try and screen for Lyme disease. With proper clothing and some tick repellent, most people should be able to avoid getting bitten in the first place.

4shot
05-04-2018, 07:26
Ticks are everywhere and Lyme disease is no joke. From experience, not only is it hard to diagnose but symptoms can last for a long time if it is untreated. Once you get it, getting back to full strength takes some time.

If you do get bitten by a tick, do yourself a favor and get a Lyme disease test (https://www.accesalabs.com/Lyme-Disease-Test) to try and screen for Lyme disease. With proper clothing and some tick repellent, most people should be able to avoid getting bitten in the first place.

This is good advice. The spring after my hike I started having pain in my shoulder. Doctor gave me a cortisone shot and told me I had bursitis. A few weeks later, my hip started hurting. Went back and asked to have a Lyme's test. My doctor (and the entire clinic) had never encountered this disease before and if I had not specifically asked for the test, it would not have been diagnosed until (possibly) too late. And the doctor is someone I respect and trust. Lyme's does not (apparently) show up in routine blood and lab work. As much as hikers and doctors on the AT corridor are aware of Lyme's, it is not a safe assumption to think that doctors. hospitals, clinics, etc. elsewhere know the symptoms and how/when to test for it.

double d
05-04-2018, 23:46
nasty, nasty stuff!!!!!! be very careful-I know a guy with Lyme Disease (he got it in northern Wisconsin).

Last Call
05-05-2018, 00:38
yup...and now there is a new strain out west, where it makes one allergic to meat.....don't get bit by that tick!

Deacon
05-05-2018, 06:34
My son has now spent north of $30,000 battling Lyme disease. Obamaís healthcare does not cover Lyme, and refuses to acknowledge that it even exist!


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Traveler
05-05-2018, 07:11
My son has now spent north of $30,000 battling Lyme disease. Obamaís healthcare does not cover Lyme, and refuses to acknowledge that it even exist!
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Just as fact, the ACA provided the "floor" of what insurance policies needed to cover, for example insurers were required to provide an annual physical as a policy inclusion. Insurers decide what to cover beyond the policy requirements of basic care the ACA established. These policies range from minimal to optimal coverage and are priced accordingly.

Lyme disease has long been acknowledged in the medical community, however insurers are not required to cover all illnesses in policies. In areas of the US that do not have a high incidence rate of Lyme disease for example, testing for Lyme disease may not be common and if the patient requests one, it may be considered a test outside the insurance policy list of benefits, typically determined by the cost of the policy itself. The issue you may be having is with the insurer, not a President.

Offshore
05-05-2018, 07:39
My son has now spent north of $30,000 battling Lyme disease. Obama’s healthcare does not cover Lyme, and refuses to acknowledge that it even exist!


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I don't doubt that he spent $30K, but an insurer, but "refuses to acknowledge that it even exist" needs to be clarified. What may not be recognized is "chronic" Lyme disease - and that's because the Infectious Diseases Society of America guidelines don't recognize chronic Lyme due to their position that no scientifically accepted case definition exists for chronic Lyme disease. The insurance companies use these guidelines when determining whether to cover a therapy or not. This is not a shortcoming of ACA ("Obamacare") - you'd see it in Medicare, provate plans, and employer-sponsored plans. Never forget for one moment that medical insurance is a zero-sum game and the position of an insurer (whether acting as an actual insurer or as a plan administrator for a self-insured employer plan) is to pay as little as possible. Your son's issue is not with a particular policy but would be the same no matter where or how he obtained his insurance.

It serves as a great reminder to treat clothing with permethrin and ask your doctor to prescribe 200 mg of doxycycline to keep in your first aid kit. Peer-reviewed studies show that taking this after a bite reduces that expected infection rate by 90%. Also, remember to take tick precautions when outdoors - not just hiking. My doctor told me that the vast majority of Lyme cases he's treating were from people doing yard work or participating in outdoor recreation other than hiking. He said that his patients that are hikers seem to know better. Some of what I read here on WB and see on the trail belies that, though.

Deacon
05-05-2018, 09:13
Whatever the argument, before the ACA, every physical malady was covered.


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Deacon
05-05-2018, 09:14
By my insurance.


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Offshore
05-05-2018, 09:51
By my insurance.


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So you are saying that you were treated for a diagnosis of chronic Lyme disease and that it was all covered under your insurance? By all means, redact your personal information and post the EOBs.

Out here in the fact-based world, the ACA set minimum standards for insurance policies. The reason so many pre-ACA policies got so expensive or went away all together is that they didn't originally didn't meet the minimum coverage requirements. Most people that had these crappy policies never read what they did - or more importantly, did not - cover. The one sure thing is that insurance may have covered treatment of symptoms associated with "chronic" Lyme, but wouldn't cover a diagnosis of it for reasons given in my prior post.

Given your stated age of 72, you are presumably on Medicare. The ACA was enacted in 2010 and took full effect in 2015. ACA increased benefits under Medicare by fully covering preventive care and included provisions for closing the prescription drug "doughnut hole". At the time of enactment of ACA in 2010 you would have been just become eligible for medicare, so may have been on a private or employer policy pre-ACA and Medicare post-ACA, so you are comparing two different policies, which is meaningless. If you were on Medicare pre- and post-ACA enactment, you may feel the Medicare coverage got worse, but you would be demonstrably wrong.

Deacon
05-05-2018, 10:24
No, forget Medicare. Iím referring to my insurance during my working years.

When I started with Ford years ago my insurance paid everything 100%. Then before 2010, the deductible was $600. After that, my insurance paid EVERYTHING.


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Deacon
05-05-2018, 10:27
And my entire family was included in the coverage.


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Offshore
05-05-2018, 11:34
No, forget Medicare. I’m referring to my insurance during my working years.

When I started with Ford years ago my insurance paid everything 100%. Then before 2010, the deductible was $600. After that, my insurance paid EVERYTHING.


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Implementation of (or an increase in) a deductible for a covered procedure and whether or not a procedure is covered (regardless of deductible) are two separate things and shouldn't be conflated. You're also now saying that after 2010 you went from a $600 deductible to a $0 deductible, so passage of the ACA didn't do anything to hurt - and may have improved - your coverage. So other than ideology, what exactly is the basis of your complaint?

While symptoms may be covered, many insurers don't cover "chronic" Lyme disease because there is no consensus that it even exists or if it does, how to treat it. Here's a good summary: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5102277/

Deacon
05-05-2018, 13:05
Implementation of (or an increase in) a deductible for a covered procedure and whether or not a procedure is covered (regardless of deductible) are two separate things and shouldn't be conflated. You're also now saying that after 2010 you went from a $600 deductible to a $0 deductible, so passage of the ACA didn't do anything to hurt - and may have improved - your coverage. So other than ideology, what exactly is the basis of your complaint?

While symptoms may be covered, many insurers don't cover "chronic" Lyme disease because there is no consensus that it even exists or if it does, how to treat it. Here's a good summary: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5102277/

Whoa, I never said that. When I started at Ford in 1988, I had 0 deductible, $30/month Premiums.

At retirement in 2010, the deduct was $600, $110/month premiums.

My son with ACA pays $10,000/year in premiums alone, and coverage is iffy.


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kestral
05-05-2018, 13:35
Whoa, I never said that. When I started at Ford in 1988, I had 0 deductible, $30/month Premiums.

At retirement in 2010, the deduct was $600, $110/month premiums.

My son with ACA pays $10,000/year in premiums alone, and coverage is iffy.


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I hear your pain and anger. ACA actually did make things better in general, not worse. Health access has been sliding for years, including price escalation and diminishing care. Been on both sides of insurance and medical issues now, it’s scary to be sick today.

The takeaway from original post that I get is “ most health care professionals, even the very highly respected ones, don’t thnk Lyme disease, so please request a blood test to consider possibility if you feel you are at risk and your symptoms suggest exposure .” The treatment and cure for Lyme is an extended antibiotic treatment, which is much different from usual treatment for chronic joint pain issues -steroids, anti inflammatory meds, opiates. Note I said cure! Lyme disease can be cured, not just treating symptoms, the biggest takeaway.

I mentioned to my Dr that I walk about 5 miles per day on average, and am exposed to numerous vector hosts, including ticks, mosquitos, and possible bacteria from water sources that I swim in. She looked at me with disbelief, and this bright young professional is a native of a developing country - India!

The healthiest patient is often often the best informed.

Deacon
05-05-2018, 13:43
I hear your pain and anger. ACA actually did make things better in general, not worse. Health access has been sliding for years, including price escalation and diminishing care. Been on both sides of insurance and medical issues now, itís scary to be sick today.

The takeaway from original post that I get is ď most health care professionals, even the very highly respected ones, donít thnk Lyme disease, so please request a blood test to consider possibility if you feel you are at risk and your symptoms suggest exposure .Ē The treatment and cure for Lyme is an extended antibiotic treatment, which is much different from usual treatment for chronic joint pain issues -steroids, anti inflammatory meds, opiates. Note I said cure! Lyme disease can be cured, not just treating symptoms, the biggest takeaway.

I mentioned to my Dr that I walk about 5 miles per day on average, and am exposed to numerous vector hosts, including ticks, mosquitos, and possible bacteria from water sources that I swim in. She looked at me with disbelief, and this bright young professional is a native of a developing country - India!

The healthiest patient is often often the best informed.

The ACA made things better in general?

The exact plan I had doubled in premiums and doubled in deductibles when the ACA went into effect. Thatís a fourfold increase.

Put anything in the hands of the government and they will mess it up.


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Deacon
05-05-2018, 13:48
Iím just relaying my experience and as you can tell, Iím not happy about it.


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ADK Walker
05-05-2018, 14:20
It's been almost 7 months since I tested positive for Lyme (with a confirmed case of Mono on the side). It wrecked me to a depth that I have never experienced before.

If I may, I'd like to share a few recommendations to any and all who might be interested.

1) Don't think it can't happen to you.

2) Be diligent about tick checks.

3) Invest in some treated outdoor clothing especially socks and pants (Insect Shield is one company that treats garments prior to the arrival at the retail storefront)

4) Purchase permethrin spray for at home application of your clothing. (Won't last as long on clothing as those that have been commercially applied but still works). Also purchase and keep handy (in your car, backpack, back door, etc.) as a repellant product for skin application.

5) If you suddenly have a fever, joint stiffness and/or severe aching muscles get to you doctor ASAP. I waited for close to two weeks after my fever hit. Only after not being able to walk did I make a doctor appt. I wish I went to a doctor sooner.

6) I didn't have a rash or find a tick so don't dismiss signs or symptoms if you didn't find evidence of a tick bite.

7) If you are diagnosed with Lyme you will unfortunately (on top of everything else your dealing with) will be told dozens of tick related horror stories by well meaning friends as well as random acquaintances. Lyme can effect you physically, mentally and emotionally. You don't have to battle it alone. Find a support network as you recover.

8) If doing the things you love require you to be outside don't let fear rob you of that joy. Take precautions, be smart and diligent about checking yourself and live your life to the fullest. Lyme can cause paralysis. But so can fear.

9) If you have a family member or friend with Lyme, your support and encouragement would be gift to them. Give it to them freely. Lyme as well as the other tick related diseases can look different in each individual. It's scary and a lot is still unknown about them.

10) If you're reading this and Lyme is a part of your life already... Don't give up.

Offshore
05-05-2018, 21:17
I’m just relaying my experience and as you can tell, I’m not happy about it.


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Your story keeps changing or you are being very unclear and non-specific in your claim. The last hard figures you quote was at retirement in 2010 - before the ACA kicked in. So what insurance doubling are you talking about? Its not Medicare which is what you presumably went on after retirement. I call BS on your claim. Wait until you see what happens to Medicare now that they just discovered (despite the warnings of economists) that this BS tax cut for the 0.1% added $1.1 trillion to the budget deficit. The party in power is coming for your Medicare and Social Security to fix the deficit, so better get your "blame it on ACA" talking points in better order than you do now.

Offshore
05-05-2018, 21:34
Put anything in the hands of the government and they will mess it up.


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More misinformation - the ACA is a law - nothing more, nothing less. It did not create a government-run system (like the Medicare that I expect you refused to accept to avoid being a hypocrite). The insurers did not change. There are the same for-profit insurance companies that were there before ACA.

MuddyWaters
05-05-2018, 23:18
More misinformation - the ACA is a law - nothing more, nothing less. It did not create a government-run system (like the Medicare that I expect you refused to accept to avoid being a hypocrite). The insurers did not change. There are the same for-profit insurance companies that were there before ACA.
It affected things in ways you may not be aware.
Companies were financially penalized for having " cadillac" plans, ie too good for their employees. Plans were actually reduced due to this.

Ins. Doesnt cover everything. Some viruses have been declined as not proven to not be act of terrorism. Acts of war, terrorism may be excluded, etc. Always read fine print.

JPritch
05-07-2018, 11:43
It serves as a great reminder to treat clothing with permethrin and ask your doctor to prescribe 200 mg of doxycycline to keep in your first aid kit. Peer-reviewed studies show that taking this after a bite reduces that expected infection rate by 90%.

I have heard this is nearly impossible to get as a preventive prescription, and that the only ones who carry it in their first aids kits while hiking are doctors. :-?

Can others confirm/deny? I would love to get it if possible.

Offshore
05-07-2018, 11:58
I have heard this is nearly impossible to get as a preventive prescription, and that the only ones who carry it in their first aids kits while hiking are doctors. :-?

Can others confirm/deny? I would love to get it if possible.

It shouldn't be too tough since its not a Schedule II drug that carries a high risk of abuse. In my case, it may have helped that I live in a Lyme hot spot and my internist is a younger doctor that keeps up with the literature and treats Lyme cases. I think I paid under $2.00 for the script and get a new one with each annual physical. I never had to use it. I wear long sleeves/long pants treated with permethrin.

The literature showing the efficacy of a prophylactic 200 mg doxycycline dose has been around for almost 20 years. Here's a early paper from NEJM https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200107123450201 If your physician is hesitant, pull some abstracts from Pubmed. If they still refuse, consider getting a better doctor.

Cue
05-07-2018, 13:32
That statement has no basis in fact. Limbaugh/Hannity/Trump/Ryan are not always right.

JPritch
05-07-2018, 14:38
Good stuff Offshore. Next time I see the doctor, I'm bringing the research and am gonna ask for some.

tommaloney
05-07-2018, 15:43
That statement has no basis in fact. Limbaugh/Hannity/Trump/Ryan are not always right.

Which statement?


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Offshore
05-07-2018, 15:44
Good stuff Offshore. Next time I see the doctor, I'm bringing the research and am gonna ask for some.

You need to go in with the concept that your doctor is your partner in your health care, not a dictator. I've had doctors tell me that their favorite patients are those that take an interest in their own health care and that they welcome discussions. Just have your notes together and stay on point to get the best use of the limited time of the visit.

TwoSpirits
05-07-2018, 21:38
It's also important to remember that your doctor may not know as much about Lyme as you do, and this can be problematic in some cases. It's important to do your homework and have the conversation as an invested (and senior) partner in your own healthcare.

I am very fortunate to have had the same doctor for many years; he knows all about this little hiking hobby of mine, and while he does have a pretty good knowledge of Lyme, he also knows that he doesn't know it all. Each spring I ask him for a prescription for doxycycline -- nothing more than a few days worth to initiate treatment if I discover an imbedded tick. You don't have to be a medical professional to have some doxycycline in your kit.

TwoRoads
05-10-2018, 16:25
I have heard this is nearly impossible to get as a preventive prescription, and that the only ones who carry it in their first aids kits while hiking are doctors. :-?

Can others confirm/deny? I would love to get it if possible.

Before my 100 mile section hike in mid-April (I was planning a thru-hike), my doctor actually brought it up and suggested Doxycycline (100 mg) for me. He would have prescribed 10, 20, or 30 tablets. I opted for 10 (enough for 5 tick bites). He said if I got a tick bite, to take two of the 100 mg tablets that day, as a preventive measure. Since he was the one who brought it up, I know that when I return to the trail, he will allow a preventive prescription. Just sharing the good information because other people may not know that this is an option.

TwoRoads
05-10-2018, 16:44
Yeah, I concur on some of the good points about the ACA. Having worked in public health before my retirement, I have a little bit of knowledge about the subjec. In my opinion, the Affordable Care Act wasn't perfect, but it certainly does take critical hits based on ideology rather than information. My own personal experience, having worked at a local health department, is that our health care premiums rose anywhere from 8-30 percent per year from the early 1990s until passage of the ACA. They continued to rise after the ACA, but not as fast (still faster than inflation though). Often our local Board of Health covered much of those increases, but just as often, our annual raises were less than the employee share of the cost. It is insurance companies that have raised premiums, deductibles, and copays and restricts what medications and conditions they will cover. To be sure, these have affected different people differently. The ACA becomes a convenient scapegoat, but if we don't address the true causes, health care access will continue to suffer.

With Lyme Disease being a common and serious risk among backpackers, concern about the state of our health care is a salient topic, and we need to get it right.

SC_Forester
05-11-2018, 21:18
I too am a Lyme survivor and would add to ADK Walker's suggestions, don't be afraid to use DEAT. It is one of the most researched chemicals out there and has been around long enough for long term effects to researched as well. Its safe (or at least safer than Lyme or Zika) It is different from Permethrin. Permethrin while safe to use on clothes should not be used on skin and is a insecticide. DEAT is a repellent and complements the use of Permethrin. Also treat your pack with Perethrin. It will keep you from picking up bed bugs in the cheap questionable motels.

SC_Forester
05-11-2018, 21:59
I too am a Lyme survivor and would add to ADK Walker's suggestions, don't be afraid to use DEAT. It is one of the most researched chemicals out there and has been around long enough for long term effects to researched as well. Its safe (or at least safer than Lyme or Zika) It is different from Permethrin. Permethrin while safe to use on clothes should not be used on skin and is a insecticide. DEAT is a repellent and complements the use of Permethrin. Also treat your pack with Perethrin. It will keep you from picking up bed bugs in the cheap questionable motels.

Sorry DEET. I lose some creditably when i cant even spell it right.

Slow Trek
05-12-2018, 00:16
I just visited the Dr yesterday for annual check. since we are heading back to the AT next month,I asked her about doxy in case of a tick bite. Not only did she write the script,she suggested a dosage for the entire trip as a preventive measure. Seemed a bit much,so I got 30 100mg capsules for 3.00 with insurance. Even in mostly tick free Iowa,she was very aware of the hazard and ready to help.

BuckeyeBill
05-14-2018, 18:04
I just visited the Dr yesterday for annual check. since we are heading back to the AT next month,I asked her about doxy in case of a tick bite. Not only did she write the script,she suggested a dosage for the entire trip as a preventive measure. Seemed a bit much,so I got 30 100mg capsules for 3.00 with insurance. Even in mostly tick free Iowa,she was very aware of the hazard and ready to help.

Do what ever you have to do to keep that doctor.

double d
05-15-2018, 07:54
"My son has now spent north of $30,000 battling Lyme disease. Obamaís healthcare does not cover Lyme, and refuses to acknowledge that it even exist!"

####I'm not getting into a long debate here on WB with you Deacon about this issue, but I call BS on your statement on ACA, as your political beliefs are the basis for your opinions, not actually how the ACA works.

double d
05-15-2018, 07:55
I just visited the Dr yesterday for annual check. since we are heading back to the AT next month,I asked her about doxy in case of a tick bite. Not only did she write the script,she suggested a dosage for the entire trip as a preventive measure. Seemed a bit much,so I got 30 100mg capsules for 3.00 with insurance. Even in mostly tick free Iowa,she was very aware of the hazard and ready to help.

I agree, you have a very good doctor, and with you living in Iowa, that is a Dr. that you need to keep!!!!

double d
05-15-2018, 07:59
It shouldn't be too tough since its not a Schedule II drug that carries a high risk of abuse. In my case, it may have helped that I live in a Lyme hot spot and my internist is a younger doctor that keeps up with the literature and treats Lyme cases. I think I paid under $2.00 for the script and get a new one with each annual physical. I never had to use it. I wear long sleeves/long pants treated with permethrin.

The literature showing the efficacy of a prophylactic 200 mg doxycycline dose has been around for almost 20 years. Here's a early paper from NEJM https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200107123450201 If your physician is hesitant, pull some abstracts from Pubmed. If they still refuse, consider getting a better doctor.

Great, early research on Lyme Disease, thank you for sharing it!!!! good to know information.

SC_Forester
05-15-2018, 17:53
"My son has now spent north of $30,000 battling Lyme disease. Obama’s healthcare does not cover Lyme, and refuses to acknowledge that it even exist!"

####I'm not getting into a long debate here on WB with you Deacon about this issue, but I call BS on your statement on ACA, as your political beliefs are the basis for your opinions, not actually how the ACA works.

You might have your son try some of the hippie mambo jumbo holistic medicine. I not going to day it works, because i don't believe in hippie mambo jumbo holistic medicine, But when I had Lyme you get desperate so I tied it and started feeling better even after doxy. Look up buhnerhealinglyme.com

BuckeyeBill
05-15-2018, 18:55
You might have your son try some of the hippie mambo jumbo holistic medicine. I not going to day it works, because i don't believe in hippie mambo jumbo holistic medicine, But when I had Lyme you get desperate so I tied it and started feeling better even after doxy. Look up buhnerhealinglyme.com

The Native American Indians did not have Pharmacies and used natures cures to cure ailments. They only started having problems when the English and European settlers came over carrying smallpox and other diseases.

Deacon
05-15-2018, 20:43
I have to apologize for my rant earlier in this thread. Seems like I sufficiently and thoroughly managed to Ďtickí everyone off. Iíll admit my Obama comment was over the top, and shouldnít have been said.

As I watch my son brush near death with Lyme, I get quite emotional. He was on doxycycline for 18 months, but being an antibiotic, that also kills the immune system if youíre on it long enough. Apparently the spirochetes bury themselves in the walls of the organs and blood vessels, and hide from the antibiotics.

He had to stop the antibiotics six months ago and is trying to recover his immune system. Weíll see where it goes from here.



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Brother Blood
05-16-2018, 01:53
This is why I don't hike. Lyme Disease is a killer !!! I would never even think of stepping foot on the Appalachian trail, because of ticks.

---Brother Blood, GA-ME '16

Traveler
05-16-2018, 06:44
This is why I don't hike. Lyme Disease is a killer !!! I would never even think of stepping foot on the Appalachian trail, because of ticks.

---Brother Blood, GA-ME '16

If you don't have a yard to maintain, or leave paved surfaces much you have little to worry about then. Lawns/yards is a common link for tick exposure with a high percentage of people who contract Lyme disease. Risks can be mitigated for both back yards and being in the forests.

stephanD
05-16-2018, 15:11
[QUOTE=Brother Blood;2208365]This is why I don't hike. Lyme Disease is a killer !!! I would never even think of stepping foot on the Appalachian trail, because of ticks.

you can get bitten anywhere. here's how you can protect yourself;

A. InsectShield your hiking cloths (except underwear).
B. Stay on the trail, don't busdwhack
C. Hike with long, light colored trousers.
D. For extra protection, spray your cloths, shoes, and gear with Permethrin.
E. Check yourself daily for ticks (easier said then done though).

Time Zone
05-16-2018, 16:11
Has anyone here verified for themselves the long-term effectiveness of Insect Shield treated clothing? Just wondering. When they first come back, it's very obvious that the clothing has been treated in some way. The surface texture feels rougher/grippier, and anything that can shrink in a hot dryer (such as wool socks) will have done so a bit. But over time, the fabrics soften, and revert to their original feel. The treatment is supposedly good for 70 washings/life of the garment, and I'm nowhere near 70 uses yet (3-4 complete sets of dedicated hiking clothes were treated), but I do wonder if I put a tick on there, would they still die. I don't have any ticks handy to test it myself (and I'm kind of glad about that!). Just wondering if anyone else has done this.

Another Kevin
05-16-2018, 16:32
Has anyone here verified for themselves the long-term effectiveness of Insect Shield treated clothing? Just wondering. When they first come back, it's very obvious that the clothing has been treated in some way. The surface texture feels rougher/grippier, and anything that can shrink in a hot dryer (such as wool socks) will have done so a bit. But over time, the fabrics soften, and revert to their original feel. The treatment is supposedly good for 70 washings/life of the garment, and I'm nowhere near 70 uses yet (3-4 complete sets of dedicated hiking clothes were treated), but I do wonder if I put a tick on there, would they still die. I don't have any ticks handy to test it myself (and I'm kind of glad about that!). Just wondering if anyone else has done this.

I haven't tried Insect Shield yet, but I find that Sawyer permethrin will last me for a summer, being out maybe every other weekend. I find dead ticks in my clothing, so it must be doing something right. It doesn't feel funny after the first washing, but it's still effective.

SC_Forester
05-16-2018, 17:35
The Native American Indians did not have Pharmacies and used natures cures to cure ailments. They only started having problems when the English and European settlers came over carrying smallpox and other diseases.

That is what our 3rd grade history books teach us. But, it's untrue. Pre 1492 indigenous people where practicing agriculture and living in settlements some with over 100,000 people in it. With masses of people come diseases. Diseases such as treponemiasis and tuberculosis were already present in the New World, along with diseases such as tularemia, giardia, rabies, amebic dysentery, hepatitis, herpes, pertussis, and poliomyelitis. Then lets not forget syphilis which is thought to be the gift that keeps on giving that Europe got from the new world. It is true that they were unable to cope with old would diseases.

TwoRoads
05-17-2018, 16:55
I have to apologize for my rant earlier in this thread. Seems like I sufficiently and thoroughly managed to ‘tick’ everyone off. I’ll admit my Obama comment was over the top, and shouldn’t have been said.
As I watch my son brush near death with Lyme, I get quite emotional. He was on doxycycline for 18 months, but being an antibiotic, that also kills the immune system if you’re on it long enough. Apparently the spirochetes bury themselves in the walls of the organs and blood vessels, and hide from the antibiotics.
He had to stop the antibiotics six months ago and is trying to recover his immune system. We’ll see where it goes from here.
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Deacon, thanks for sharing your story, which adds important first-hand information to the original link to the CDC article. I hope your son fully recovers from this ordeal. I can only speak for myself, but you certainly did not "tick" me off. Your son's story is a cautionary lesson for all of us. My doctor, in addition to offering and prescribing the doxy for me, emphasized the importance of preventing and treating tick bites. Where I live (I'm an Ohio guy too), I never see deer ticks, and most of the concern here is about Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, which I'll take over Lyme any day. One thing I've picked up on by reading various articles is to capture any tick that is attached and keep in a small container with a blade of grass in case you develop symptoms. Then take the tick with you when you visit the doctor, so the tick can be tested. I usually just destroy the little suckers, but in the case of the deer tick, I think I'd want to go the extra step as a precaution.

trailmercury
05-17-2018, 17:25
Then take the tick with you when you visit the doctor, so the tick can be tested. I usually just destroy the little suckers, but in the case of the deer tick, I think I'd want to go the extra step as a precaution.

I'm a family physician practicing for a major health care organization in the Lyme heavy state of Wisconsin, and although I do appreciate when patients bring in ticks, this is solely for me to identify it as a deer tick or not. I do not routinely test the tick for the Borrelia bacteria, and my colleagues don't either. We are in a community setting as opposed to an academic setting however.

There is survey testing that is done on ticks by the University of Wisconsin Madison. The ticks are gathered from afield. The results of these tests show what percentage of nymphal deer ticks carry Lyme disease bacteria in a particular county. Most county's here are around 30%.

I am liberal with my doxycycline prescribing as it regards to deer ticks/Lyme etc. But just to clarify I do not test the tick itself.

BuckeyeBill
05-17-2018, 20:22
That is what our 3rd grade history books teach us. But, it's untrue. Pre 1492 indigenous people where practicing agriculture and living in settlements some with over 100,000 people in it. With masses of people come diseases. Diseases such as treponemiasis and tuberculosis were already present in the New World, along with diseases such as tularemia, giardia, rabies, amebic dysentery, hepatitis, herpes, pertussis, and poliomyelitis. Then lets not forget syphilis which is thought to be the gift that keeps on giving that Europe got from the new world. It is true that they were unable to cope with old would diseases.

Yes they had their own set of medical problems, my point mostly was they used natural cures to treat them. Also as the influx of more European and English settles came to the new world, They began to push the eastern bands of several tribes west into lands where there were no place to get the plants used to treats their illnesses. The only tribe to hold out was a small band of Cherokee who hid and fought in the Appalachian mountains and today have a reservation in North Carolina. You can go there during your hike from Newfound Gap. They have a very excellent outdoor drama called "Unto These Hills" that is worth a zero day to go see.

Time Zone
05-17-2018, 21:15
Yes they had their own set of medical problems, my point mostly was they used natural cures to treat them. Also as the influx of more European and English settles came to the new world, They began to push the eastern bands of several tribes west into lands where there were no place to get the plants used to treats their illnesses. The only tribe to hold out was a small band of Cherokee who hid and fought in the Appalachian mountains and today have a reservation in North Carolina. You can go there during your hike from Newfound Gap. They have a very excellent outdoor drama called "Unto These Hills" that is worth a zero day to go see.

It's important to understand that there's nothing better about "natural" cures; they are almost always less effective and more dangerous than manufactured medicines. What science helps us do is isolate an effective active ingredient, purify it, and dose it.

If you just grab a plant that supposedly is good for problem X, you get none of those important benefits.

TexasBob
05-17-2018, 21:21
............ my point mostly was they used natural cures to treat them.

They didn't have any other alternatives. I bet if there was a CVS or Walgreens around they would have used it.

TwoRoads
05-17-2018, 22:14
I'm a family physician practicing for a major health care organization in the Lyme heavy state of Wisconsin, and although I do appreciate when patients bring in ticks, this is solely for me to identify it as a deer tick or not. I do not routinely test the tick for the Borrelia bacteria, and my colleagues don't either. We are in a community setting as opposed to an academic setting however.
There is survey testing that is done on ticks by the University of Wisconsin Madison. The ticks are gathered from afield. The results of these tests show what percentage of nymphal deer ticks carry Lyme disease bacteria in a particular county. Most county's here are around 30%.
I am liberal with my doxycycline prescribing as it regards to deer ticks/Lyme etc. But just to clarify I do not test the tick itself.

Thanks for the clarification, trailmercury, and I did possibly pass along some misinformation, which I pulled off the website, webmd.com. However, I misinterpreted the info, which was presented by webmd as follows: "It can help to get the tick tested so you'll know if it was carrying any diseases it might have given you. To do this, place it in a sealed container along with a blade of grass to keep it alive. Then, take it for testing. Some state agencies do tick testing, but if you're not sure where to send the tick, ask your doctor."

I misread the part about "ask your doctor" regarding where to send the tick. Also, with further research, I found that the Ohio Department of Health actually disagrees with the idea of having a tick tested after a bite, as explained on the ODH website as follows:

"Some people are interested in having ticks that they removed from themselves or loved ones tested for various tickborne diseases.. The Ohio Department of Health does not recommend tick testing under these circumstances for the following reasons:

You may not have been infected. Even if a tick is infected and tests positive, it may not have transmitted the infection to you.
It might delay treatment. Tick test results take several days and may not be available in time to make a prompt healthcare decision.
You may have other tick bites that you don't know about. Most people who are infected with tickborne diseases do not recall a tick bite. Therefore, if someone were to develop symptoms of tickborne disease, there would be no way to know whether the infection was from a known tick bite or another unknown tick bite. For example, if a tick is tested and the result is negative, you could still have been bitten by another infected tick, not know it, and develop symptoms of tickborne disease.
Tests performed on ticks are not always perfect. All laboratory tests have the possibility of false positive or false negative results. Even with a negative result, people should still monitor themselves for the appearance of a rash, fever and other flu-like symptoms. If any of these symptoms occur, you should contact your healthcare provider."


Thanks, trailmercury, for clarifying the right information, and in view of the ODH opinion, if you would like to follow up with any recommendations on when to see your physician after a tick bite, I'm sure those would be helpful and well-received. Thanks!

stephanD
05-18-2018, 08:58
There's a vaccine for dogs, but not for humans. Go figure....

Don H
05-18-2018, 09:34
Until 2002 there was a vaccine for humans called Limerex but production was halted due to low demand.

Traillium
05-18-2018, 14:21
That is what our 3rd grade history books teach us. But, it's untrue. Pre 1492 indigenous people where practicing agriculture and living in settlements some with over 100,000 people in it. With masses of people come diseases. Diseases such as treponemiasis and tuberculosis were already present in the New World, along with diseases such as tularemia, giardia, rabies, amebic dysentery, hepatitis, herpes, pertussis, and poliomyelitis. Then lets not forget syphilis which is thought to be the gift that keeps on giving that Europe got from the new world. It is true that they were unable to cope with old would diseases.

Thanks for inserting those brief tidbits of detail and truth into the neo-Rousseauian trope of indigenous peoples. Wonderful people, yes. But not saints ó and neither were all Europeans sinners Ö

BuckeyeBill
05-18-2018, 18:54
You are correct (I think) but the pharmaceutical companies still send people out into the jungles to find medical plants that they can break down then synthesize it for use in developing new medicines.

Deacon
09-19-2018, 11:14
I had previously reported on this thread that my son had contracted Lyme disease, and has been battling the symptoms now for two and a half years.

As it now turns out, he actually has now been diagnosed with Babesia. We couldnít understand why he never responded to one year of doxycycline.

The attached article explains that Babesia does not respond to doxy.

At least now there is hope.

https://rawlsmd.com/health-articles/understanding-babesia


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George
09-19-2018, 17:58
I had previously reported on this thread that my son had contracted Lyme disease, and has been battling the symptoms now for two and a half years.

As it now turns out, he actually has now been diagnosed with Babesia. We couldn’t understand why he never responded to one year of doxycycline.

The attached article explains that Babesia does not respond to doxy.

At least now there is hope.

https://rawlsmd.com/health-articles/understanding-babesia


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interesting, after years of under diagnosing lyme, now it is over diagnosed