PDA

View Full Version : Sleep Setup for a GSMNP Section Hike



jgillam
05-17-2018, 21:37
A friend and some of his family, who aren't on this site, are planning to hike the AT though the Smokies this fall. I have been letting him try and compare some on my gear as he tries to figure out what works for him. So far, he seems to like a hammock system. My concern for him at this point is, if they are required to stay in the shelters, he is going to want a sleeping pad of some sort. If he is going to carry a pad, my thought is that he should carry a tent as a backup, rather than a hammock. I realize that a pad could work on a hammock but, my experience is that it's not nearly as good as a UQ.

Thoughts and suggestions are appreciated. Thank you.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Southeast
05-17-2018, 23:02
A friend and some of his family, who aren't on this site, are planning to hike the AT though the Smokies this fall. I have been letting him try and compare some on my gear as he tries to figure out what works for him. So far, he seems to like a hammock system. My concern for him at this point is, if they are required to stay in the shelters, he is going to want a sleeping pad of some sort. If he is going to carry a pad, my thought is that he should carry a tent as a backup, rather than a hammock. I realize that a pad could work on a hammock but, my experience is that it's not nearly as good as a UQ.

Thoughts and suggestions are appreciated. Thank you.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

If they are hiking the AT thru the Smokies, they’ll need to stay in the shelters and not hammock.
Only the thru-hikers are allowed to camp outside them if the shelter is full.

I’m a hammock camper, and honestly that is why I pick other trails in the park. Who wants to sleep in the shelter unless you have to.

And agree they should carry a tent as well. Unless they have propane torches. (Sorry old joke)

Feral Bill
05-17-2018, 23:19
A tarp would be a decent backup. Not likely to need it, and maybe a pound per person, tops.

jgillam
05-18-2018, 06:11
If they are hiking the AT thru the Smokies, they’ll need to stay in the shelters and not hammock.
Only the thru-hikers are allowed to camp outside them if the shelter is full.

I’m a hammock camper, and honestly that is why I pick other trails in the park. Who wants to sleep in the shelter unless you have to.

And agree they should carry a tent as well. Unless they have propane torches. (Sorry old joke)They know that they need to stay in shelters...the hammock was the backup plan should something cause them to not be able to make it to shelter. They also want to do THIS trail and understand the limitations it puts on them. I wouldn't call him a hammocker yet, he's still borrowing my setup and hasn't even slept in it. Lol

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

jgillam
05-18-2018, 06:16
A tarp would be a decent backup. Not likely to need it, and maybe a pound per person, tops.Wasn't going to suggest it for a rookie.[emoji51] You bring up a good point about not likely needing a backup. What are the odds that would need it anyway? They are all healthy though not hikers. I'd think that they would be able to make their shelters without any issues. Is there any chance that they would get to the shelter and NOT be able to get in?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

moldy
05-18-2018, 08:26
Yes there is a chance they can’t get in. There is also a chance that they get lost or get caught in the dark and are forced to camp. A light tarp could save the day

bigcranky
05-18-2018, 08:44
Wasn't going to suggest it for a rookie.[emoji51] Is there any chance that they would get to the shelter and NOT be able to get in?


Yes. There is a non-zero chance that they arrive at the shelter and it's full. Whether it's full of hikers who didn't bother with the reservation system, or thru-hikers, doesn't really matter at that point. They either have to kick people out of the shelter, or camp nearby. Myself, I would camp nearby and call it a win. If the ranger shows up, show her my reservation and explain that the shelter was full and I wasn't comfortable throwing people out (a.k.a. "not my job.")

JC13
05-18-2018, 08:49
Wasn't going to suggest it for a rookie.[emoji51] You bring up a good point about not likely needing a backup. What are the odds that would need it anyway? They are all healthy though not hikers. I'd think that they would be able to make their shelters without any issues. Is there any chance that they would get to the shelter and NOT be able to get in?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using TapatalkI read a story last week on reddit where a group of section hikers couldn't sleep in the shelter because they got there late during a rain storm. They didn't bring any shelter because they expected that they had priority. According to the rules, they did. With no one to enforce those rules, all bets are off and always have a means of shelter.

tdoczi
05-18-2018, 09:01
Yes there is a chance they can’t get in.

if they dont qualify for a "thru hiker" permit they ened a reservation at a specific shelter.

if they have a shelter specific reservation and it was full, those without a reservation would have to vacate.

i carried only an emergency backup shelter and was prepared to kick someone out of a shelter if it was called for. you're going to make me jump through hoops to hike i'm going to make everyone jump through with me.

there were close calls but i didnt have to kick anyone out.

you couldnt pay me to lug a complete proper shelter through there with those rules in place

and though it may sound it from my tone, i am not against the rules in the least

tdoczi
05-18-2018, 09:02
I would camp nearby and call it a win. If the ranger shows up, show her my reservation and explain that the shelter was full and I wasn't comfortable throwing people out (a.k.a. "not my job.")

unlikely to happen but if the ranger were a stickler and/or in a bad mood you'd be fined for doing so.

MuddyWaters
05-18-2018, 09:11
If all present had reservations, or were permitted not to as thru hikers, i doubt ranger would care who tented . Its all the same. As long as shelter already full.

Gambit McCrae
05-18-2018, 09:12
I side slightly on the side of danger on this topic...it has been discussed many many times. I used to throw caution to the wind in the smokies and bring nothing extra for shelter. At the same time, all I had was a 5 lbs tent I really didn't care to lug around all day when I knew I wasn't going to be able to use it in the end. However as I get older and slightly less ignorant, and have more shelter options. I carry a cuben tarp. It is less then a pound and in high wind, blowing rain can be snugged down to the ground.
I would advise all whom hike the AT thru the smokies to:
A- Know your capabilities and not exceed them during the planning stages of the trip(getting your permit)
B- Carry some sort of shelter
C- Use common sense

tdoczi
05-18-2018, 09:32
If all present had reservations, or were permitted not to as thru hikers, i doubt ranger would care who tented . Its all the same. As long as shelter already full.

like i said, unlikely.

but that doesnt change the fact that an at face value literal reading of the rules says otherwise.

HooKooDooKu
05-18-2018, 10:42
Wasn't going to suggest it [tarp...decent backup] for a rookie.
Nonsense...
My second ever camping trip was to what is now GSMNP CS#5. Back then, the trail maps showed a shelter at the site, so I didn't bother bringing my tent. However, having never seen a back country shelter, I brought along a "blue tarp" in case the roof wasn't very water-tight. But after driving to the smokies, I learned the shelter had been torn down the prior year. Didn't want to just turn around and drive home, so I hiked out to CS#5 with my tarp... used a tree, a 4' branch, some twine and stakes I brought and rigged up an A-Frame. Started raining just as the sun went down, but I remained dry under my tarp.


those without a reservation would have to vacate.
But who's going to enforce the rule?
I'm not about to risk putting myself in danger miles away from any trailhead trying to confront a stranger who doesn't want to follow the rules... especially since "those without a reservation" usually implies someone without a permit (because otherwise, the only legal way the hiker could camp at the shelter is if they are an AT thru hiker on a Thru hiker permit... and if the shelter is getting full, this type of hiker is likely to WANT to vacate the shelter).


unlikely to happen but if the ranger were a stickler and/or in a bad mood you'd be fined for doing so.
IMHO: If you have a valid permit... NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

First of all, if you have a reservation for the shelter and the shelter is full... someone there either doesn't have a permit or is an AT hiker not following the rules. The ranger is going to go after the one without a permit rather than someone who is trying to follow the rules.

Second of all, my interactions with GSMNP park rangers has shown that they value safety ABOVE following the "letter of the law". bigcranky's response is a fine example of safety above rules.

HooKooDooKu
05-18-2018, 10:49
like i said, unlikely.

but that doesnt change the fact that an at face value literal reading of the rules says otherwise.
But they don't have rules for every situation my might encounter... and there are no "rules" for what YOU should do if you arrive at a full shelter yet YOU have a reservation.

Besides, given all the park rule violations I typically see, park rangers have plenty of "targets" that are willfully breaking rules than to waste their time going after someone making a legitimate attempt to follow the rules.

tdoczi
05-18-2018, 10:53
But who's going to enforce the rule?


me. i would were i in that spot.

Ashepabst
05-18-2018, 10:53
yeah, if they're staying in shelters the whole time and this is just a back-up scenario, just bring the tarp. ...and give him a quick primer on local depressions and rises and such so he wont wake up in a puddle.

tdoczi
05-18-2018, 10:55
But they don't have rules for every situation my might encounter... and there are no "rules" for what YOU should do if you arrive at a full shelter yet YOU have a reservation.

Besides, given all the park rule violations I typically see, park rangers have plenty of "targets" that are willfully breaking rules than to waste their time going after someone making a legitimate attempt to follow the rules.

unless i am mistaken, the rules state that the only people who can tent at shelter sites are people with AT thru hiker permits.

is that not the rule?

in big cranky's example he is camping in a tent without said permit, is he not?

end of story.

and ill say again, i agree it isnt going to be enforced that way, but lets not pretend that isnt what the rules state

TNhiker
05-18-2018, 10:56
First of all, if you have a reservation for the shelter and the shelter is full... someone there either doesn't have a permit or is an AT hiker not following the rules. The ranger is going to go after the one without a permit rather than someone who is trying to follow the rules.




and the ranger will make the person who doesnt have a permit pack up and leave.............

ive heard a couple of stories of people at a shelter, no permit, and they were escorted back to the trailhead....

TNhiker
05-18-2018, 11:01
unless i am mistaken, the rules state that the only people who can tent at shelter sites are people with AT thru hiker permits.

is that not the rule?




yes............and ONLY if the shelter is full...

Gambit McCrae
05-18-2018, 11:01
unless i am mistaken, the rules state that the only people who can tent at shelter sites are people with AT thru hiker permits.

is that not the rule?

in big cranky's example he is camping in a tent without said permit, is he not?

end of story.

and ill say again, i agree it isnt going to be enforced that way, but lets not pretend that isnt what the rules state

It is enforced that way, I have seen it on 2 of my trips. Once at mollies ridge, once at Tricorner knob. It was enforced by different ridgerunners and on top of that, the very first trip I ever took on my own in the park ended after night 1 because I didn't even know you had to have a permit and so the ridgerunner told me I had to exit the trail at russel field and he radio'd the cades cove visitor center so they could watch for me. When I got down there, there was a park ranger waiting to walk me to center so I could use the phone to call for a ride. It was a real pain the arse trying to get a ride from cades cove to Fontana dam let me tell ya. A friends mom had to drive from Johnson city to pick me up. Why the hell if he could radio down to the ranger station to taddle, could he not have radio'd down and gotten me a permit?! made it a positive learning experience? I had never been to GSMNP I did know of this so called permit system?! I digress, the park is strict and the rules are enforced, and that is the end of my story.

TNhiker
05-18-2018, 11:14
Why the hell if he could radio down to the ranger station to taddle, could he not have radio'd down and gotten me a permit?! made it a positive learning experience?




one could also say that it's up to the individual to know beforehand about the permits and all that...

after all, its been on the dollar map for decades that one needs to have a permit...............along with also being on the interwebs.....

tdoczi
05-18-2018, 11:16
yes............and ONLY if the shelter is full...

so someone with a shelter reservation permit who is found to be in a tent is violating that rule. shelter full or not.

i dont know how anyone can read it any other way

TNhiker
05-18-2018, 11:20
so someone with a shelter reservation permit who is found to be in a tent is violating that rule. shelter full or not.



if it's an AT thru hiker (and by the Park's definition of 50 miles before and 50 miles after)-----and the shelter is not full, and they have a permit, and they are in a tent-----then yes, they are in violation....


if its just someone with a permit for a night or two (a non thru hiker)-----and they are in a tent and not in the shelter----they are in violation......



the keys things are what type of permit it is and whether the shelter is full or not...


bottom line----the only people allowed to tent outside the shelter are thru hikers with permits and if the shelter is full......

Starchild
05-18-2018, 11:29
I would say since they can't use the hammock it is best not to take it at all, but a simple tarp. Even though shelters may be full, there is often space on the dirt floor inside that could be used (and is during thru season).

MuddyWaters
05-18-2018, 12:28
if it's an AT thru hiker (and by the Park's definition of 50 miles before and 50 miles after)-----and the shelter is not full, and they have a permit, and they are in a tent-----then yes, they are in violation....


if its just someone with a permit for a night or two (a non thru hiker)-----and they are in a tent and not in the shelter----they are in violation......



the keys things are what type of permit it is and whether the shelter is full or not...


bottom line----the only people allowed to tent outside the shelter are thru hikers with permits and if the shelter is full......

But.... The regulation is specific to Tents.
It does not actually say You must sleep in the shelter.
It says you are not allowed to use a tent.

It actually does not specifically say that you cannot use a hammock. In fact it states hammocks may not be attached to the shelter.

Nor does it say that you cannot sleep on the ground if you like, sans tent. One could argue that a bivy is a very small tent, but lack of one obviously is not.

42750

TNhiker
05-18-2018, 13:37
But.... The regulation is specific to Tents.



the regulation is for both tents and hammocks........


from the compendium ----

Hammocks may be set up in areas where tent use wouldbe suitable and are subject to the same regulations as tentuse. Hammocks must be strapped to trees using TreeSaver straps or other wide straps that will not cut intotrees. Hammocks may not be set up in areas whereresources would be trampled or otherwise compromised.Hammocks may not be set up inside shelters or attached toany part of shelters.

Starchild
05-18-2018, 14:03
...It does not actually say You must sleep in the shelter.
...
This reminds me of a work situation where a worker was sleeping when his super walked into the room and saw him. The super noting he was asleep acted to wake him. This guy held up his finger as to indicate a request for a moment please, then quickly did a catholic cross motion with hands and said 'amen'.

Note sure it it would work in a hammock.

tdoczi
05-18-2018, 14:18
This reminds me of a work situation where a worker was sleeping when his super walked into the room and saw him. The super noting he was asleep acted to wake him. This guy held up his finger as to indicate a request for a moment please, then quickly did a catholic cross motion with hands and said 'amen'.

Note sure it it would work in a hammock.

it begs something of an interesting question-

when people like matt kirk do their run across the whole park in one shot deal, do they need a camping permit?

you would think not. and if not, is there a regulation against sitting down in the dark with your back against a tree or rock?

Starchild
05-18-2018, 14:27
it begs something of an interesting question-

when people like matt kirk do their run across the whole park in one shot deal, do they need a camping permit?

you would think not. and if not, is there a regulation against sitting down in the dark with your back against a tree or rock?
There are interesting potential loopholes, including hiking at night and sleeping in the shelters during the day (I was told directly by my ATC supervisor incharge of the smokies section that a permit was not needed for this).

TNhiker
05-18-2018, 14:30
when people like matt kirk do their run across the whole park in one shot deal, do they need a camping permit?



as long as he doesnt stop to sleep, no permit is needed....




you would think not. and if not, is there a regulation against sitting down in the dark with your back against a tree or rock?



yeah........you cant do that...............thats considered sleeping and the park frowns on sleeping in other places besides a campsite (front or backcountry or shelter).........



point of reference----even taking a mid day nap at a shelter, needs a permit...

at leconte shelter-----i was sleeping in the shelter at 10 am (i did a night hike up to watch sun rise) and the ranger came by and woke me up and asked for permit...

and throughout the day---he kept checking my permit........as in, he came by 3 different times, and every time i had to show my permit............

TNhiker
05-18-2018, 14:33
including hiking at night and sleeping in the shelters during the day (I was told directly by my ATC supervisor incharge of the smokies section that a permit was not needed for this).




i was told by a park ranger that one needs to have a permit if they are taking a nap in a shelter or campsite during the day.....

HooKooDooKu
05-18-2018, 15:16
Let's keep in mind that not all laws are "written"...
There is "Statutory Law" (laws that are written) and there is "Common Law" (laws derived from custom and judicial precedent).


so someone with a shelter reservation permit who is found to be in a tent is violating that rule. shelter full or not.
i dont know how anyone can read it any other way
But by that logic, if you a come to a stop on the interstate because of traffic congestion, you're breaking the law and subject to being ticketed for violating the minimum speed limit (typically about 40mph on most interstates).


There are interesting potential loopholes, including hiking at night and sleeping in the shelters during the day (I was told directly by my ATC supervisor incharge of the smokies section that a permit was not needed for this).
I believe the ATC supervisor was wrong...


i was told by a park ranger that one needs to have a permit if they are taking a nap in a shelter or campsite during the day.....

... is there a regulation against sitting down in the dark with your back against a tree or rock?
Another situation where "Common Law" rather than "Statutory Law" comes into play...

On the general subject of "day hikes", in many national parks (GSMNP among them), you don't need a permit to day hike. But if you are "day hiking" with a set of camping gear, "Common Law" sort of says you have the intent to camp and therefore need a permit. So simply walking around the back country with camping gear can prompt a ranger to ask for a camping permit, and if you don't have one, you'll be escorted out of the park (I was once walking around the visitor's center at Clingman's Dome with a back pack on and a ranger asked to see my permit).

This might also explain the seemingly conflicting statements between Starchild's comment and THhiker's comment...
I don't know, but I'll speculate...
If a ranger finds you at a shelter around noon taking a nap with no camping gear and you're within 5 to 8 miles of a trail head, you're day-hiking and simply taking a rest, NOT camping.
But if you're found napping at a shelter and you have a sleeping pad, cooking gear, etc, that implies you're camping (either here or somewhere else within a half days walk) and you better have a camping permit.

bigcranky
05-18-2018, 15:28
Wow, lots of angels on the head of the pin here.

Am I violating the rule if I tent with a section hiker permit? OK, sure.

Am I willing to try to throw someone out of the shelter who is already violating the permit system? Nope. Too many unstable people out there, some of them armed.

If the ranger shows up and throws out the unpermitted folks, I am happy to move into the shelter.

HooKooDooKu
05-18-2018, 15:33
Wow, lots of angels on the head of the pin here.
How many?

Am I violating the rule if I tent with a section hiker permit? OK, sure.

Am I willing to try to throw someone out of the shelter who is already violating the permit system? Nope. Too many unstable people out there, some of them armed.

If the ranger shows up and throws out the unpermitted folks, I am happy to move into the shelter.
Agreed

tdoczi
05-18-2018, 15:35
Let's keep in mind that not all laws are "written"...
There is "Statutory Law" (laws that are written) and there is "Common Law" (laws derived from custom and judicial precedent).


But by that logic, if you a come to a stop on the interstate because of traffic congestion, you're breaking the law and subject to being ticketed for violating the minimum speed limit (typically about 40mph on most interstates).


I believe the ATC supervisor was wrong...



Another situation where "Common Law" rather than "Statutory Law" comes into play...

On the general subject of "day hikes", in many national parks (GSMNP among them), you don't need a permit to day hike. But if you are "day hiking" with a set of camping gear, "Common Law" sort of says you have the intent to camp and therefore need a permit. So simply walking around the back country with camping gear can prompt a ranger to ask for a camping permit, and if you don't have one, you'll be escorted out of the park (I was once walking around the visitor's center at Clingman's Dome with a back pack on and a ranger asked to see my permit).

This might also explain the seemingly conflicting statements between Starchild's comment and THhiker's comment...
I don't know, but I'll speculate...
If a ranger finds you at a shelter around noon taking a nap with no camping gear and you're within 5 to 8 miles of a trail head, you're day-hiking and simply taking a rest, NOT camping.
But if you're found napping at a shelter and you have a sleeping pad, cooking gear, etc, that implies you're camping (either here or somewhere else within a half days walk) and you better have a camping permit.

the difference in my example is the rules spell out a remedy for the situation. the remedy being those without a reservation need to vacate.

now if you want to argue that having stated that you were present and had a reservation and requested those who did not to vacate and no one did that you are not the liable party, i'd agree.

but you cant just go "oh well shelter is full, guess its a tent for me!" because you secretly would rather sleep in your tent.

tdoczi
05-18-2018, 15:42
as for the "unstable people" angle, i guess i just feel like if i'm standing in front of a shelter full of 20 people, 18 of whom belong and 2 who do not, i'm going to win. no matter how crazy the 2 are

TNhiker
05-18-2018, 15:44
but you cant just go "oh well shelter is full, guess its a tent for me!" because you secretly would rather sleep in your tent.




and thats a problem in and among itself....

hikers have been known to arrive at a shelter mid day----wait til its full...........then go and set up a tent somewhere else......


and keep in mind----rules that are broken, will only lead to more rules.....

hence the new reservation system that was put in place a few years ago....

JC13
05-18-2018, 15:56
as for the "unstable people" angle, i guess i just feel like if i'm standing in front of a shelter full of 20 people, 18 of whom belong and 2 who do not, i'm going to win. no matter how crazy the 2 areEveryone is 10 feet tall and bulletproof on the interwebz.

Burrhead
05-18-2018, 16:15
I was in the park in spring of 2014 and got to Silars Bald shelter and found it full of mostly thru hikers and 3 section hikers with permits for Silars Bald. I had a permit for Silars Bald that night but I was doing a loop using other campsites so I had my tent. I was fine with not packing into the shelter so I set my tent up. A ranger came through about two hours later, saw that the shelter was above capacity at this point, checked everyone's permit, I told him that I was fine using my tent and giving a spot to a thru hiker and he said that as long as the shelter was at or above capacity and the people tenting or in hammocks we're happy with the situation it was ok for section hikers to give up a place in the shelter and tent. I can't say that every ranger or ridgerunner will have this same attitude. It does make sense that if a shelter is full and everyone has a permit someone has to tent. It doesn't matter if it's a section or thru hiker. The point seems to be that the section hikers have to be happy about it. In fall of 2016 I camped at cs. 57 on deep Creek trail and two rangers came by around 6 in the evening checking permits and escorted some horse Packers out for not having permits. No idea if they received a fine or not. As to the point of this thread, I would give them a quick lesson on using a tarp and tell them to have a great trip.

tdoczi
05-18-2018, 17:01
Everyone is 10 feet tall and bulletproof on the interwebz.

no, its just simple reality that the odds youre going to meet a gun or hatchet wielding psycho who is going to violently take on 15 or more strangers is up there with being hit by lightning crossing rocky top or having a sudden spontaneous rockslide sweep you off of charlie's bunion.

95% of the people in the world, if theyre in the situation of being the thru hiker who is there and doesnt belong, theyre going to leave if you nicely, but firmly, point out to them that its the right thing to do.

now i suppose theres exists a possibility of encountering 20 thru hikers and youre the only one with a reservation for the night, but i again refer you to the part about the lightning, though the odds are probably not quite as long.

tdoczi
05-18-2018, 17:04
But by that logic, if you a come to a stop on the interstate because of traffic congestion, you're breaking the law and subject to being ticketed for violating the minimum speed limit (typically about 40mph on most interstates).


by that logic, if the traffic jam happens to be within sight of my office building and i ahve an important meeting that i ca not miss, exiting the vehicle and leaving it in the middle of the road is fine and i am not guilty of abandoning it.

a ridge runner in the park told me point blank when asked (mostly out of curiosity) "get to the shelter youre supposed to be at, get your reservation changed if you can get someone on the phone, or exit the backcountry."

by that logic, if you the shelter is full and you either do not want to engage the people there or they refuse to leave, your correct remedy is to leave the backcountry.

Starchild
05-18-2018, 18:33
...
a ridge runner in the park told me point blank when asked (mostly out of curiosity) "get to the shelter youre supposed to be at, get your reservation changed if you can get someone on the phone, or exit the backcountry."

....
That was not how I was trained when I 'Ridge Ran' the Smokies. The term used in this case is a 'off sequence hiker'. If it was possible for them to get back on sequence we were to encourage them, if not contact the Back Country Office via radio to replan their route (sometimes later at the shelter if needed to let the radio traffic die down). Either way there was a 'mandatory' LNT talk about plan ahead and prepare that this person needed to hear - including knowing their limits, and why it is important to make every reasonable effort to stay on reservation. But it was never suggested that I encourage them to leave the backcountry for the simple reason that they are off sequence, it would be if they were seen to be in trouble, but that's a different issue.

tdoczi
05-18-2018, 20:56
That was not how I was trained when I 'Ridge Ran' the Smokies. The term used in this case is a 'off sequence hiker'. If it was possible for them to get back on sequence we were to encourage them, if not contact the Back Country Office via radio to replan their route (sometimes later at the shelter if needed to let the radio traffic die down). Either way there was a 'mandatory' LNT talk about plan ahead and prepare that this person needed to hear - including knowing their limits, and why it is important to make every reasonable effort to stay on reservation. But it was never suggested that I encourage them to leave the backcountry for the simple reason that they are off sequence, it would be if they were seen to be in trouble, but that's a different issue.

this was last year. things no doubt evolve and as it is a fairly new system i'm sure it has been tweaked over the first few years of its implementation.

i also asked where exactly and how exactly i would exit the backcountry were i not able to reach the shelter i had a reservation for. he suggested clingman's dome (at that point about 8 miles away) i asked what i would do when i got there. the answer was a slightly more pleasant variant of "not my problem."

none of the above is a criticism of him in any way.

the approach you describe is more like what i once was told at grand canyon when i ended up off sequence. that was after being laughed at, in good humor, for not having a headlamp. ahh to be a newb.

Deacon
05-28-2018, 08:54
That was not how I was trained when I 'Ridge Ran' the Smokies. The term used in this case is a 'off sequence hiker'. If it was possible for them to get back on sequence we were to encourage them, if not contact the Back Country Office via radio to replan their route (sometimes later at the shelter if needed to let the radio traffic die down). Either way there was a 'mandatory' LNT talk about plan ahead and prepare that this person needed to hear - including knowing their limits, and why it is important to make every reasonable effort to stay on reservation. But it was never suggested that I encourage them to leave the backcountry for the simple reason that they are off sequence, it would be if they were seen to be in trouble, but that's a different issue.

Here is Starchild and Gray Beard as ridgerunners in the Smokys - 2014.

Remember when you asked me for my permit?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180528/623a89b5b0b13f2ea35404f4d6dd052b.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

JC13
05-28-2018, 11:02
no, its just simple reality that the odds youre going to meet a gun or hatchet wielding psycho who is going to violently take on 15 or more strangers is up there with being hit by lightning crossing rocky top or having a sudden spontaneous rockslide sweep you off of charlie's bunion.

95% of the people in the world, if theyre in the situation of being the thru hiker who is there and doesnt belong, theyre going to leave if you nicely, but firmly, point out to them that its the right thing to do.

now i suppose theres exists a possibility of encountering 20 thru hikers and youre the only one with a reservation for the night, but i again refer you to the part about the lightning, though the odds are probably not quite as long.The more likely possibility in this day and age is the other people watching as you get attacked and hoping they don't. But good luck out there.

MuddyWaters
05-28-2018, 12:19
as for the "unstable people" angle, i guess i just feel like if i'm standing in front of a shelter full of 20 people, 18 of whom belong and 2 who do not, i'm going to win. no matter how crazy the 2 are

What if its raining , and those 2 people are good friends with the other 18 in that shelter , been on the trail with them since Georgia , and you arent.

Now what's your chances

StuartM
05-28-2018, 13:59
I did that section last year with a group of 6. Two of our party had hammocks and they almost always had places to hang them. There might have been 1 or 2 places where they didn't so a pad or something to sleep on at a shelter might be a good backup.

HooKooDooKu
05-28-2018, 17:45
I did that section last year with a group of 6. Two of our party had hammocks and they almost always had places to hang them. There might have been 1 or 2 places where they didn't so a pad or something to sleep on at a shelter might be a good backup.
There is a HUGE difference between "having places to hang" and being able to legally hang.
The ONLY legal way to hang a hammock is to have a Thru Hiker Permit (which has certain rules to acquire) AND the shelter be already full.

Starchild
05-29-2018, 07:45
Here is Starchild and Gray Beard as ridgerunners in the Smokys - 2014.

Remember when you asked me for my permit?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180528/623a89b5b0b13f2ea35404f4d6dd052b.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Yes I do remember, that was my training session w/ Gray Beard mentoring me. Good times! Thanks for the photo.

StuartM
06-02-2018, 07:18
We hiked the Smokies last year and my wife used her hammock at every shelter. We were registered as thru hikers but it was never an issue.

HooKooDooKu
06-02-2018, 12:08
We hiked the Smokies last year and my wife used her hammock at every shelter. We were registered as thru hikers but it was never an issue.
But the point is "legally" you can not EXPECT to get to hammock at shelters since it takes the combo of thru permit & full shelter.
During the thru "bubble" you're almost guaranteed those conditions can always be meet... But there are no guarantees. So you always need to be prepared with a backup plan.

Countyline
06-05-2018, 13:45
OK so I'm more confused now than before reading this thread. I am section hiking the AT in sequence NOBO over a period of years. My plan is for one such section to be just the Smokies. I will be hiking the 50 miles before and after but not as part of the same hike. So my question is do I get an AT Thru Hiker permit or do I get a backcountry camping permit? Am I eligible for either or both? Which is more advantageous to me?

tdoczi
06-05-2018, 13:59
What if its raining , and those 2 people are good friends with the other 18 in that shelter , been on the trail with them since Georgia , and you arent.

Now what's your chances
theyre better than the chances that they have been hiking since georgia with 18 people who all have reservations for that shelter for some strange reason even though they'd be qualified to have thru hiker permits.

tdoczi
06-05-2018, 13:59
The more likely possibility in this day and age is the other people watching as you get attacked and hoping they don't. But good luck out there.

thats what watching TV would have you believe. it hasn't been my personal experience of the world.

Burrhead
06-05-2018, 14:49
OK so I'm more confused now than before reading this thread. I am section hiking the AT in sequence NOBO over a period of years. My plan is for one such section to be just the Smokies. I will be hiking the 50 miles before and after but not as part of the same hike. So my question is do I get an AT Thru Hiker permit or do I get a backcountry camping permit? Am I eligible for either or both? Which is more advantageous to me?
You will need a backcountry permit listing every shelter you stay at.

TNhiker
06-05-2018, 16:27
I will be hiking the 50 miles before and after but not as part of the same hike. So my question is do I get an AT Thru Hiker permit or do I get a backcountry camping permit?



i'll at to what burrhead said----since you are not hiking 50 before and 50 after as part of this hike, that's why you will need a reservation (permit) for each shelter you stay at...

it it was all part of the same hike----then you would be eligible to get the thru hiker permit......