To hang or not to hang?

[GolfHiker]

Every year, every time I hike on the AT, the Q. of hanging your food at night comes up. Sometimes we have Bear Cables, sometime a Bear Pole, and now we are seeing Bear boxes, so depending on where you are ( shelters, camp sights, or stealthing in the backwoods) the choices can be obvious. The real question beyond convenience is what is the proper thing to do? Many veteran hikers will laugh at those who hang, swear by the method of just "sleeping" with your food bag. They even support their thinking with logic. So, is there any definitive thinking on this topic that might make future decisions easier. Maybe even a study....

i would note that the focus always seems to be on bears, but those pesky red squirrels have no respect for a cable or pole.

Thanks.

[stephanD]

Mice will cause more damage to your gear then bears if you sleep with your food.

[Lone Wolf]

most folks that use shelters hang food poorly so bears become a problem. i sleep with my food away from shelters because they are trashy, filthy urban areas

[Strategic]

Properly stowing your food is simply good practice, no matter where you are (shelter, campsite, stealthing, whatever). That absolutely does not mean sleeping with your food, which is both a poor practice and a good way to lose it. If there is a bear box available, that's usually a sign of bear activity in the area and you should use it by preference, since these teach bears that food is not accessible at that site. In any other situation, do a proper hang (i.e., a PCT hang) in order to discourage all types of animals from viewing the site you're at and the presence of humans as a food opportunity. This is the main reason not to sleep with your food, since you're basically teaching anything that comes across you that humans and their gear (tents, hammocks, etc.) = food. Not only is this a good way to get your food snatched right out from under you by something small and crafty (mice, raccoons, etc.) but it is teaching the same lesson to any bears who might come around. Even if you don't have a problem, you're setting up others for problems later. Learn how to hang properly and do it consistently, because it's good practice just like other LNT practices.

[Lone Wolf]

i'll continue to sleep with my food in my tent like i have for 30 years. works for me

[CalebJ]

I certainly agree with hanging food well when the environment supports it, but if that's not a viable option (and it often isn't), then I'll sleep with it under my head also.

[Epsilon>0]

Just wanted to share my experience here. I'll be thru-hiking the AT when I graduate in 2020. I've never hiked a foot of the AT, but I've done a lot of hiking in the Monongahela National Forest. The Cranberry Wilderness is there, and is crisscrossed with great trails. The Cranberry is also a black bear reserve. The first time I hiked in the Cranberry Wilderness, I decided against hanging a bear bag: it was getting dark and I just wanted to bed. So I slept with my food in my tent. I woke at around 3 AM to the sounds of some large animal (what animal or how large, of course, I couldn't tell) lumbering by the riverside, snapping branches. I lay awake for a while, and I remember getting the feeling that something was near the tent. I was laying with my head pressed against the stretchy fabric of the tent. Well, there was something right outside the tent, and it reached out and scratched my head. I wasn't hurt, just terrified. I lay there for 2 and a half hours, willing the sun to start shining. Now, was it a bear that scratched me? Beats me--could have been anything. But I saw two black bears within half a mile of where I slept when I hiked out early that morning, and I had seen prints and scat near the trail all day long the day before. Granted, this was a black bear reserve, not the AT--I get that. But my lesson was, if I'm hiking where I think it's a good idea to hang a bear bag, and if I'm hiking alone, then I'm just going to hang one. Better safe than sorry.

[Hayduke Lives]

Some people drink and drive for thirty years, the on a magical day they kill a family of four minding there own business. If people want to put themselves in danger, more power to them. My point is don’t let your personal choices endanger others. If bears didn’t like dumps, you wouldn’t find them in dumpsters.


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[T.S.Kobzol]

Same for me. Sorry if it upsets the hanging enthusiasts. I've never had an issue and I get out pretty much every weekend.


i'll continue to sleep with my food in my tent like i have for 30 years. works for me

[stephanD]

Anecdotal evidences suggest that black bears along the AT have less fear of humans. Also, I have read that some bears learn to break the tree branches where the food bags are hanged. Fortunately, most shelters have either/or bear boxes (which are sometimes full of hiker's trash), bear poles and bear cables. As a matter of principal, i NEVER keep anything in my tent that a wild animal may think of as food, and that includes hand sanitizer and tooth paste.

[scope]

I'm a lazy hiker. I loathe hanging a food bag. I also don't want mice getting into my food or ruining bags/packs trying to. I also want a place to put cool stickers. That's why I use a BV450.

[gravityman]

Would I rather take the 1:100 chance that a bear will get away with my hung food bag or a 1:10000 chance that a bear will try to get to the food under my head I'm using as a pillow?

I would rather take a 1:100 chance that I loose my food than a 1:10000 chance of getting hurt.

Gravityman

PS: I made those statistic up, but it illustrates the point

[Feral Bill]

I just got an Ursack Almighty. Seems a good choice as hanging is often difficult to impossible in the west. Also I am lazy.

[MuddyWaters]

Properly stowing your food is simply good practice, no matter where you are (shelter, campsite, stealthing, whatever). That absolutely does not mean sleeping with your food, which is both a poor practice and a good way to lose it.

Not true.

Do not confuse issues.

Your food is always safest with you.

You, on the other hand, are theoretically safer with your food somewhere else.

These are two totally different things.

Several years ago Mountain Crossings kept a tally when the bear problem was at its peak at Blood Mountain. The tally at one point was was something like.... Food lost when hanging ... 78. Food loss when sleeping with it...0.

Another truism... A poor hang, is worse than no hang at all. They hang has to be darn near perfect to be bear resistant. Good trees are hard to find.

[martinb]

After 27 years of hangs, my food bag got taken over the summer by a bear that knew what it was doing. There was nothing wrong with my hang, it was just not going to stop an experienced bear. I threw in the towel and have a bare boxer. You never know when you are going to run in to this kind of bear, so, for the safety of you and your food, a can is worth the effort.

[FreeGoldRush]

i'll continue to sleep with my food in my tent like i have for 30 years. works for me
How can this work? Four nights ago I hammocked with my pack hanging on the hammock line under the tarp. The food bag was hung far away from camp. At midnight the hammock strings were jiggling and a large animal was outside. I climbed out with my headlamp expecting a bear. It was a small deer. After returning home I realized a small piece of cake in a ziplock bag had been forgotten in the backpack and not hung.

So did I inadvertently sleep with food? It didn't stop an animal from trying to get it. I'm still a novice and still amazed at how fearless the animals are when you settle down and get quiet at night. Sleeping with food sounds like a very bad idea.

[T.S.Kobzol]

I'd say you did not sleep with your food. It hung on a hammock line outside of your hammock [emoji16]


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[randall_mcduberson]

I can't help but notice the large number of posts regarding campsites being closed due to bears. I think Strategic put it perfectly that it is not so much an issue of the bear eating your food or attacking you, but rather the bears seeing it as a food source/opportunity. I, for one, could not care less about your food. After all, it is YOUR food, not mine. But if campsites that I want to use are being closed due to bears seeing them as a potential food source, and the solution that is being suggested by the people who's job it is to manage these areas is to hang my food, then I will hang my food.

I think this is an issue of problem framing. Are you trying to protect your food or are you trying to reduce impact and prevent the attraction of animals to campsites. The question may change your answer. Perhaps a bear canister is the solution to your problem?

I congratulate everyone who has never lost their food to a bear. I am sure you are responsibly controlling your food and trash in order to minimize your impact. The unfortunate thing is that some are not responsible, and see you keeping your food in your tent as an excuse to not hang their own food. This isn't the root of the problem, but that does not make it any less true.

I find "it is how I have always done it" to be a lazy answer to this. I will admit that change is difficult, and I am rarely surprised but still frustrated when people do things solely because of convenience.

[Crushed Grapes]

I find "it is how I have always done it" to be a lazy answer to this. I will admit that change is difficult, and I am rarely surprised but still frustrated when people do things solely because of convenience.
Could not agree more

[martinb]

I can't help but notice the large number of posts regarding campsites being closed due to bears. I think Strategic put it perfectly that it is not so much an issue of the bear eating your food or attacking you, but rather the bears seeing it as a food source/opportunity. I, for one, could not care less about your food. After all, it is YOUR food, not mine. But if campsites that I want to use are being closed due to bears seeing them as a potential food source, and the solution that is being suggested by the people who's job it is to manage these areas is to hang my food, then I will hang my food.

I think this is an issue of problem framing. Are you trying to protect your food or are you trying to reduce impact and prevent the attraction of animals to campsites. The question may change your answer. Perhaps a bear canister is the solution to your problem?

I congratulate everyone who has never lost their food to a bear. I am sure you are responsibly controlling your food and trash in order to minimize your impact. The unfortunate thing is that some are not responsible, and see you keeping your food in your tent as an excuse to not hang their own food. This isn't the root of the problem, but that does not make it any less true.

I find "it is how I have always done it" to be a lazy answer to this. I will admit that change is difficult, and I am rarely surprised but still frustrated when people do things solely because of convenience.

Great post. When the bear got my hung food I did not feel bad for myself, I felt I had contributed to the problem. Hanging is really a game of chance. You hang the food in hopes that a bear who shows up looking for food does not know how to get at your well-hung food bag. An experienced bear will get it. It may take a long time but, if you spend enough time in the woods, it's going to happen. I now carry a can because it's my responsibility, to the bears and other hikers, to minimize bear/human interactions.

[ggreaves]

I can't help but notice the large number of posts regarding campsites being closed due to bears. I think Strategic put it perfectly that it is not so much an issue of the bear eating your food or attacking you, but rather the bears seeing it as a food source/opportunity. I, for one, could not care less about your food. After all, it is YOUR food, not mine. But if campsites that I want to use are being closed due to bears seeing them as a potential food source, and the solution that is being suggested by the people who's job it is to manage these areas is to hang my food, then I will hang my food.

I think this is an issue of problem framing. Are you trying to protect your food or are you trying to reduce impact and prevent the attraction of animals to campsites. The question may change your answer. Perhaps a bear canister is the solution to your problem?

I congratulate everyone who has never lost their food to a bear. I am sure you are responsibly controlling your food and trash in order to minimize your impact. The unfortunate thing is that some are not responsible, and see you keeping your food in your tent as an excuse to not hang their own food. This isn't the root of the problem, but that does not make it any less true.

I find "it is how I have always done it" to be a lazy answer to this. I will admit that change is difficult, and I am rarely surprised but still frustrated when people do things solely because of convenience.
If there was a "like" button, I would have pressed it.

[IslandPete]

We thru hiked last year. Hung our food every night, or used Bear boxes where provided. One night in a shelter we hung from the rafters, because of warnings everywhere about flying squirrels getting into bags hung in trees. Our food was important to us, and I didn’t want to share it with mice or bears. As far as sleeping with it in my tent, I think it was less that I was afraid of bears, as I just didn’t want the hassle of being awaken in the middle of the night by one trying to get into my tent for my food. My sleep was important to me too...

[IslandPete]

We thru hiked last year. Hung our food every night, or used Bear boxes where provided. One night in a shelter we hung from the rafters, because of warnings everywhere about flying squirrels getting into bags hung in trees. Our food was important to us, and I didn’t want to share it with mice or bears. As far as sleeping with it in my tent, I think it was less that I was afraid of bears, as I just didn’t want the hassle of being awaken in the middle of the night by one trying to get into my tent for my food. My sleep was important to me too...

[Fredt4]

Not true.

Do not confuse issues.

Your food is always safest with you.

You, on the other hand, are theoretically safer with your food somewhere else.

These are two totally different things.

Several years ago Mountain Crossings kept a tally when the bear problem was at its peak at Blood Mountain. The tally at one point was was something like.... Food lost when hanging ... 78. Food loss when sleeping with it...0.

Another truism... A poor hang, is worse than no hang at all. They hang has to be darn near perfect to be bear resistant. Good trees are hard to find.
This is my point. A poor hang is bound to create problems, Most hikers are not capable of hanging their food in such a manner to prevent it being taken by a bear. A review of bear activity will show that bears do not take food that is next to a person. I've seen many bears take food from bear hangs. I was at Black Mountain in 2011 and I advised my fellow campers not to hang their food and was ignored. The bears took their food from the trees and I just shook my head. My belief is that a hanged food bag is a invitation to the bear to take the food. Sleeping with your food is not an invitation for the bear to harm you. In my research I've have found no incidents of bears harming the hiker sleeping with their food. So the one's that say hang your food need to look at the history of bear incidents and reevaluate their advice.

[FreeGoldRush]

This is my point. A poor hang is bound to create problems, Most hikers are not capable of hanging their food in such a manner to prevent it being taken by a bear. A review of bear activity will show that bears do not take food that is next to a person. I've seen many bears take food from bear hangs. I was at Black Mountain in 2011 and I advised my fellow campers not to hang their food and was ignored. The bears took their food from the trees and I just shook my head. My belief is that a hanged food bag is a invitation to the bear to take the food. Sleeping with your food is not an invitation for the bear to harm you. In my research I've have found no incidents of bears harming the hiker sleeping with their food. So the one's that say hang your food need to look at the history of bear incidents and reevaluate their advice.
If you believe it is perfectly safe to sleep with your food, then what do you believe is the primary cause of bear attacks?

Is a bag hung 10 feet off the ground and 10 feet from the trunk of the tree sufficient?

[TNhiker]

In my research I've have found no incidents of bears harming the hiker sleeping with their food.




what about the people who had bears harming them or enter their tents who claimed they didn't have food with them while they were sleeping?

i can think of three right off the top of my head without thinking---the kid in a hammock in hazel creek, this years Thomas knob tent, and the guy up at Spence field in a tent.....

[Crossup]

I've only been reading about hanging food for a few years but the one thing I have never seen mentioned is a direct side effect of hanging food vs keeping it in your tent...odor control. Hung, your food smells are almost certainly going to be broadcast over a large area if there is any air movement.
On the opposite end of that spectrum, food in a sack or container, in a back pack, in a tent on the ground is inherently less likely to broadcast its odors as far and wide. My take is food in your tent is more likely to get the attention of rodents etc than bears.

The only thing I'm sure of it is the only sure solution is to not bring food...brought to you by the guy with 9 days worth in his pack :D

[martinb]

Bears are going to smell your food, hung or not. Using "odor proof" sealed bags will help, a little, but bears have very, very keen sense of smell.

[Astro]

If there is a cable, pole, box, etc., I use it, otherwise I sleep with it in my tent.

A few times like in SNP or a real remote place I wasn't sure about I did hang a bear bag, but I am not confident in the quality of job I did (tried the 10 foot up an 10 foot out, but who knows).

[Fredt4]

If you believe it is perfectly safe to sleep with your food, then what do you believe is the primary cause of bear attacks?

Is a bag hung 10 feet off the ground and 10 feet from the trunk of the tree sufficient?
What is the primary cause of bear attacks? That's an interesting question. I can tell what it isn't, food storage, proper or improper. An interesting article I've read, but wasn't able to relocate, in 2011 discuss the issue. No incidents were found to lead to bear attacks from the garbage sites to less obvious sites. The article discussed the rarity of incidents given the possibilities. Most attacks involved people who worked or otherwise intentionally involved themselves with bears. I note that no AT thru-hiker has ever been killed, or injured (pretty sure about this) by a bear. A few hikers have been killed nearby but it's a very small portion of the one's killed. If you examine the ones killed it's a few children and as I stated before persons intentionally involving themselves with bears, plus a couple of women. I believe the number is less than 1 per year. For hikers the result is that it's extremely unlikely that one will be attacked by a bear. So food storage is not about safety for the hiker. It's about controlling bear behavior. Now given this your concerns are not relevant. As to the question of a bag that's hung 10' by 10' is it sufficient. I will only observe that I've seen bears defeat many such hangs, though most are not as well hung. The reality is that most hikers can't or won't hang in such a fashion. I question the reasons for encouraging hikers to continue to hang when it's given that the hang will be defeated by the bears. A cable, bear box, bear pole can be and are very effective. But a food bag hung in a tree is not effective. Food kept by your side is effective. Food placed in a tent when you are not in the tent is not effective. As many have noted on this thread many hikers have been sleeping with their food. I don't see a slew of incidents of them being attacked by the bears. Most AT hikers, at least after the first couple of months, probably sleep with their food. Perhaps their telling us something about the non-existence of bear attacks. A more interesting question is in the following post, "what about the people who had bears harming them or entered their tents". As noted in most such incidents no food was kept in the tent or otherwise involved. Perhaps the bears didn't know someone was in the tent. Perhaps their keen sense of smell wasn't a factor. As to the incident of the kid in the hammock I believe the bear wasn't looking for food as much as it was thinking the person was it's food. Anyways it's a rarity in any event which I'm not able to explain.

[martinb]

Food in a tent is not effective, it's a higher stakes gamble. You are gambling that the bear will be afraid enough not to overcome it's urge to get into the tent, after your food. The bear does not want to kill you, it wants your food. Having done both, hang the bag and sleep with the food, I have realized these are not the answer. Bear cans are the answer because there is no wiggle room. There's no hang judgement and no worries about being injured by a bear determined to get your food you are sleeping with. Just put the food, toothpaste, et al in the can and lock it.

A little something about researching these incidents, from personal experience. The Forest and Park Services are not going to post when a bear gets in to someones tent. Usually you find out second hand and it's often not posted all over the Internet. They stick to the rules established, hang your food or place it in a locked container.

[skater]

I can't help but notice the large number of posts regarding campsites being closed due to bears. I think Strategic put it perfectly that it is not so much an issue of the bear eating your food or attacking you, but rather the bears seeing it as a food source/opportunity. I, for one, could not care less about your food. After all, it is YOUR food, not mine. But if campsites that I want to use are being closed due to bears seeing them as a potential food source, and the solution that is being suggested by the people who's job it is to manage these areas is to hang my food, then I will hang my food.

I think this is an issue of problem framing. Are you trying to protect your food or are you trying to reduce impact and prevent the attraction of animals to campsites. The question may change your answer. Perhaps a bear canister is the solution to your problem?

I congratulate everyone who has never lost their food to a bear. I am sure you are responsibly controlling your food and trash in order to minimize your impact. The unfortunate thing is that some are not responsible, and see you keeping your food in your tent as an excuse to not hang their own food. This isn't the root of the problem, but that does not make it any less true.

I find "it is how I have always done it" to be a lazy answer to this. I will admit that change is difficult, and I am rarely surprised but still frustrated when people do things solely because of convenience.

Beautifully explained!

[TNhiker]

Most attacks involved people who worked or otherwise intentionally involved themselves with bears



ill disagree..

the two fatal attacks that we have had, one in GSMNP and one in cherokee national forest, one of those was a lady on a day hike...

the other was a kid who's family was having a picnic.......

[Fredt4]

ill disagree..

the two fatal attacks that we have had, one in GSMNP and one in cherokee national forest, one of those was a lady on a day hike...

the other was a kid who's family was having a picnic.......
Notice that I didn't say all, just used "most". While you may disagree the truth is still relevant. Most attacks don't involve hikers but perhaps you wish to see it all all the attacks involved hikers. Your perception only clouds the issue. Most people say that you shouldn't sleep with your food because they see the issue as you do. But once you see the issue as it really is then one can understand why hanging is a bad solution.

[TwoRoads]

This is from an actual experience conveyed by a backpacker I came upon at a shelter. For a couple of miles, I had been seeing signs about bear activity at nearby shelters. It was raining when I came upon the next shelter and there was a backpacker sitting by the fire ring in his raincoat. I asked him if he had stayed at the shelter the previous night and if he had seen any bear activity. He told me that he had not seen bear activity at the SHELTER, but the previous night, he had stayed in his tent on the ridge a short distance back. He said that a bear had tried to get into his tent. I asked him where he had his food, and he replied, "in my tent." The look on my face must have conveyed my surprise at what I considered an unwise practice. So he offered, "well, what are you gonna do? It got to my site late, after dark, so I didn't hang." I thought, "you do ANYTHING but that" (keep your food in your tent), but I didn't say anything. The guy seemed a little shaken by the experience. My own thinking is that an bear encounter like the one he experienced presents a significant danger. I've always hung my food (PCT method), and will continue to do so. My order of preference is bear box (provided at the shelter), bear pole, bear cables, PCT method. Only one time when I had none of these options, I stashed my food bag (with Opsack) a distance away from my tent under a log, covered with leaves and duff. The night was without incident.

I go along with many of the other comments that you are protecting against (in this order): a bear threat to you personally, creating a bear problem for others, endangering the bear, losing your food.

Sometimes when I see the tuna can hangs in a shelter, no bear boxes, cables, poles, or signs warning of bear activity, I will hang my food in a shelter (though I'm still a little wary, especially when alone). But I would NEVER sleep with my food in my tent.

I'd be curious to hear from those who have lost their food when hung if they used the PCT method. I consider that method to be adequately safe, and try to use the recommended 12 feet high and 6 feet from the trunk of the tree. I certainly can relate to the difficulty of finding a good bear bag limb, though.

[SWODaddy]

what about the people who had bears harming them or enter their tents who claimed they didn't have food with them while they were sleeping?

i can think of three right off the top of my head without thinking---the kid in a hammock in hazel creek, this years Thomas knob tent, and the guy up at Spence field in a tent.....

Who up near Thomas Knob had a bear enter their tent?

[TwoSpirits]

Sometimes when I see the tuna can hangs in a shelter, no bear boxes, cables, poles, or signs warning of bear activity, I will hang my food in a shelter (though I'm still a little wary, especially when alone). But I would NEVER sleep with my food in my tent.

This is where I get confused -- and please do not take me as being snarky or argumentative; this is a genuine question: what is the difference between hanging your food in a shelter vs. keeping it in your tent?

As for myself, I know full well that my hanging skills are near zero, and I believe that a poor hang is worse than no hang at all. I use an Ursack/OPsack combination. Most of the time I sleep with my food in my tent, however if I'm in an area with known or obvious bear activity (or if I just have an uneasy feeling), I tie my Ursack to a tree. On the couple of occasions when I've stayed in a shelter, I've put the sack up the pole out of respect for the others who were there and adamant about hanging their food.

[Crossup]

Bear encounters are just like people encounters- you have no way of knowing what you'll get. If you want to be "protected" by statistics, you have nothing to worry about. If you want to be sure you are not the lottery winner, you might not want to keep food in your tent. I'll admit to be being one of "those" guys, despite having a bear try to abscond with our cooler/food at Canaan Valley campsite.
Woken in the middle of the night by(I thougth) some idiot rifling thru an ice filled cooler across the loop road, I tell my worried wife its not a bear(she wanted to have bear spray, but even the management said not needed) only to exit our BA CS3 and be facing a 200lb bear with its paws on our cooler on the picnic table less than 15' away. I froze for a second then manned up and yelled and waved my arms...it trundled off knocking the cooler off the table. We later that day,saw the bear cruising around the perimeter of the camp site and finally heard that the Rangers had scared it off with rubber bullets. Needless to say my wife has never let me live it down, but that having been about my 5th close encounter with bears(Whistler and Snowshoe multiple times) I'm a bit jaded. So I go with the flow- hang if available, box if available and camp with it when there is no reported activity.
I feel there is no reason for either fear nor ignoring the possibility of being unlucky, if you can mitigate the small risk, why not? If not, being fearful is the wrong state of mind for LD hiking and camping, the odds of a very unpleasant bear encounter are less than that of being injured, assaulted or other bad situation. LNT aside, we are intruding into their habitat, and as such we can only do so much when we choose to disrupt nature. I can see the very act of hanging as training some bears to out wit our methods, yet its statistically more effective than leaving your food out. Many answers, none perfect.

[MuddyWaters]

This is from an actual experience conveyed by a backpacker I came upon at a shelter. For a couple of miles, I had been seeing signs about bear activity at nearby shelters. It was raining when I came upon the next shelter and there was a backpacker sitting by the fire ring in his raincoat. I asked him if he had stayed at the shelter the previous night and if he had seen any bear activity. He told me that he had not seen bear activity at the SHELTER, but the previous night, he had stayed in his tent on the ridge a short distance back. He said that a bear had tried to get into his tent. .




I'm just going to point out that if a bear actually tried to get into the tent, the bear would have succeeded. No doubt the bear was curious sniffing around, maybe testing to see if the person was awake or willing to defend the food. But the fact is it wasn't willing to confront a person to get it.

Without a doubt a bear will take food that it thinks it can get without confrontation by human. They will Bluff to get you to abandon food and packs and back away. They will sneakily take things that are just feet out of your reach. It's not that it's "in a tent ", its that it is under control of a person , and they must be willing to fight that person for it.

Shortly after the blood Mountain issues, a couple of females camped together a little ways past Neel Gap.
They pitched their tents together , put their food in one, and slept together in the other. They posted on here from trail for help when the bear ripped up the other tent and took the food. They left in night and hiked 2 miles back to neel gap. The next day they came back with food and they found that the bear had ripped up their gear they had left behind as well.

[Crossup]

Dead on MuddyWaters, bears(especially mature ones) are very opportunistic and unless they are sick or otherwise not normal, avoid confrontation. One merely has to observe the many videos of hunters in their tree stands who are "visited" by bears to realize they are not into confronting but are curious and when young, not yet experienced enough to know to avoid humans.

[TNhiker]

Most attacks don't involve hikers but perhaps you wish to see it all all the attacks involved hikers.



can you provide some incidents/attacks/whatever one wants to call it for non hiker/backpacker/fisherpeoples?


and since this is a board mainly dealing with the AT---incidents in the southeast/east coast area?

[Fredt4]

can you provide some incidents/attacks/whatever one wants to call it for non hiker/backpacker/fisherpeoples?


and since this is a board mainly dealing with the AT---incidents in the southeast/east coast area?
This is the site that lists bear attacks. It separates the attacks by type of bear: black, brown or polar

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

The most striking aspect is the rarity of attacks, especially of attacks upon hikers. I remember when they removed the fencing from the shelters in the GSMNP. To date no one has been killed that was sleeping in a shelter. Unfortunately a woman was killed while day hiking. I thought there was another incident but perhaps it was outside the park.

[martinb]

I'd be curious to hear from those who have lost their food when hung if they used the PCT method. I consider that method to be adequately safe, and try to use the recommended 12 feet high and 6 feet from the trunk of the tree. I certainly can relate to the difficulty of finding a good bear bag limb, though.

I lost mine, hing PCT method, 14' high about 7' from the trunk. It did not matter to this bear, he know how to get it. Break off the branch. This is the weakness of these types of hangs. I was camping with a three-time AT thru hiker when this happened, he said you did everything right, this bear just knew what he was doing.

I found out, a couple of days later that this bear had gotten to other hangs in the area (nothing posted on the Forest FB or webpage). The forest service closed the entire wilderness area down a few days later. I drove by while a ranger was putting up closure notices and ask him about what happened. He said the bear got in to someone's tent while they were in it, after their food. Again, this was not posted by the Forest Service. I believe this happens more than people realize, it's just not news unless someone gets hurt.

[Deacon]

Food in a tent is not effective, it's a higher stakes gamble. You are gambling that the bear will be afraid enough not to overcome it's urge to get into the tent, after your food. The bear does not want to kill you, it wants your food....

Ok, then why doesn’t a bear try to grab your food loaded pack off your back as you hike during the day? You’ve got your food in your possession.

The bears I see as I hike while wearing my food loaded pack, either run away or, well, run away.

Why are they any different at night?


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[Deacon]

So therefore I have no problem sleeping with my food.


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[Deacon]

If there is a cable, pole, box, etc., I use it, otherwise I sleep with it in my tent.

A few times like in SNP or a real remote place I wasn't sure about I did hang a bear bag, but I am not confident in the quality of job I did (tried the 10 foot up an 10 foot out, but who knows).

Rock Spring Hut - SNP - 2016.

About ten hikers, mostly if not all, were out for short week long hikes. Everyone hung there food bag on the pole - except me. I slept with my food. I got some dirty looks.

That night - we believe it was raccoons - got every single bag on the pole. I had no problem.

Just sayin’.


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[Uncle Joe]

The problem with sleeping with your food is that you're betting the bear has a proper fear of humans. A bear that's frequenting a camp of humans, going after backpacks, and ignoring people yelling and throwing things at it isn't afraid of humans and is likely just as inclined to go for the food in your tent. This, in fact, has happened.

[SWODaddy]

My general rule of thumb is to sleep with my food everywhere that bears are not protected from hunting, and hang or use a bear canister everywhere they're protected. Yes, there's obviously exceptions.

My food isn't safer while hung, but I am as the bears in these areas often have no fear of humans and associate them with food. Black bears become dependent on the food source and then become more aggressive as measures (bear boxes, cables, canister rules, etc.) are implemented.

Too often in these threads, people conflate opportunistic stealing of food with predatory attacks by black bears. A day hiker (or even a person in hammock) being killed by a bear has nothing to do with food storage.

[Uncle Joe]

My general rule of thumb is to sleep with my food everywhere that bears are not protected from hunting, and hang or use a bear canister everywhere they're protected. Yes, there's obviously exceptions.
My food isn't safer while hung, but I am as the bears in these areas often have no fear of humans and associate them with food. Black bears become dependent on the food source and then become more aggressive as measures (bear boxes, cables, canister rules, etc.) are implemented.
Too often in these threads, people conflate opportunistic stealing of food with predatory attacks by black bears. A day hiker (or even a person in hammock) being killed by a bear has nothing to do with food storage.

Sounds like a good rule of thumb, actually.

Certainly there's a big difference between predatory attacks and food stealing. However, a food thief doesn't have to become predatory to be a danger. People immediately go to a list of fatal bear attacks when people ask about hiking in bear country. Aggressive contact, while still rare, is more likely with a nuisance bear.

[reppans]

Interesting discussion... I sleep with my food in a large Opsak stored inside my tent. A smaller Opsak for garbage is stored inside the larger one (double bagged), and used TP is stored inside a garbage Mountain House bag (triple bagged). I also use Opsaks at home to store my dog's poop bags until I can find a garbage can - it's the only thing I've found that can contain that stink, even baking in hot car for hours. My dog cannot smell a juice steak though it.

Yes I've read that a bear's sense of smell is ~21x better than the average dog (which is 100x better than the avg. human). If that's the case, I figure I'm toast anyway - I stuff empty Cliff bar wrappers in my pack's pocket while hiking; steam from my MH meal wafts into my face/hair/shirt; a drop of food drips onto my clothes/ground sheet; and if it's raining hard, I will both cook and eat inside of my tent (well, pee and poop too, so maybe that cancels the food odors out ;)).

To properly do a 200ft 'bear triangle' for eating/sleeping/hanging, I find I need to bushwack through a lot more low brush (and multiple times) with the equally unattractive tick/Lyme risk. I guess I'll continue to take my chances sleeping with the food.

PS - interesting note: I was day hiking on AT/LT last week and was talking to a PCT/AT thru hiker..... he mentioned that deer :confused: were a real problem. Apparently, they had chewed through some folks packs left outside for the salt imbedded in the padding.

[martinb]

Ok, then why doesn’t a bear try to grab your food loaded pack off your back as you hike during the day? You’ve got your food in your possession.

The bears I see as I hike while wearing my food loaded pack, either run away or, well, run away.

Why are they any different at night?


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Sight. Bears are opportunistic feeders. The bear does not want confrontation but it does want the food.

[GolfHiker]

I gotta say, all these responses are great. Well stated positions from veteran AT hikers who have been there, done that. I've personally seen it all, good & great hangs, PCT included, yet critters get the food. Bad hangs, inviting bears to have easy access, hanging successfully from the shelter tuna cans, and keeping food in your tent &/or under your hammock. I've been lucky over the years, and yes, I've done all the above.

Its a polarizing topic, even to the point of shelter hikers being upset with anyone who does not hang, believing they are somehow bringing harm to everyone else. In the end, pick your side of the question, commit to it and HYOH!

I've learned a lot here, and plan to use this information to my best advantage going forward. I'll be utilizing bear boxes for sure, cables & poles maybe, and sleeping with my food otherwise.

[TwoRoads]

This is where I get confused -- and please do not take me as being snarky or argumentative; this is a genuine question: what is the difference between hanging your food in a shelter vs. keeping it in your tent?
As for myself, I know full well that my hanging skills are near zero, and I believe that a poor hang is worse than no hang at all. I use an Ursack/OPsack combination. Most of the time I sleep with my food in my tent, however if I'm in an area with known or obvious bear activity (or if I just have an uneasy feeling), I tie my Ursack to a tree. On the couple of occasions when I've stayed in a shelter, I've put the sack up the pole out of respect for the others who were there and adamant about hanging their food.

Good question, so for clarification, in a shelter, I at least have a little room to maneuver in case of a close encounter. Maybe that's a false sense of security on my part. I just feel more trapped in a tent and at the mercy of an agile wild animal, plus when tenting, I'm alone and often a good distance from help. However, note that I said I hang in a shelter only if all other signs point to no bear activity and then preferably if I'm not alone (more people to hopefully scare the bear away).

I did hike with a guy who was skitterish about not hanging THE WHOLE PACK (because of the possibility of a bear associating food with a backpack). It makes sense, but I'm just not quite that cautious. In fairness, there was a sign indicating bear activity in the area. Nevertheless, I hung my food and then, out of consideration for my hiking partner, propped my backpack against a tree about 100 yards away and he was comfortable with that.

I'm not so trusting as to believe that a bear is always going to want to avoid confrontation. My thinking is, they are a wild animal, and therefore unpredictable. They have, after all, killed people, albeit rarely, so I'll give them that much respect. And as I alluded to, my process is about saving ME first; if I lose my food, I'm not happy, but I'm alive and uninjured. If I feel like someone's behavior might be putting me at risk, I'll go ahead and hang my food and then tent.

[Berserker]

Ahh yes, the age old food storage debate. My opinion has gone all over the place on this. I used to be a staunch hanger (PCT method), and then I started getting lazy and slept with it. In 2012 I bought a bear can for the JMT, and since then I’ve used it off and on with some random hangs in there and some sleeping with the food.

As another poster stated my main strategy at any point in time depends on the potential threat of a bear actually coming into camp. This can happen anywhere at any time, but there are definitely higher risk areas such as in the National Parks and at shelters where there are problem bears. For the high risk areas I either use provided food storage (cables, poles or boxes) or carry my bear can. Sometimes I’ll hang the food. For lower risk areas I’ll often still sleep with the food (sealed up in multiple bags).

There’s really not a good answer here that would for all intents and purposes solve the issue…well, actually there is, but most ain’t gonna like it. Where storage is not provided the bear can appears to be the next safest bet. Of course this is the heaviest option, and most will not want to carry it. There is also a valid debate as to whether or not it’s really necessary. However, if we were to pick a unified solution (i.e. a solution that should cover all hiker experience levels) to this problem this seems like the most fool proof method. As it goes with everything, the vast majority of hikers are responsible with their food, but there’s that small percentage that’s gonna screw it up for everyone else.

[GolfHiker]

As I've read through the responses I'm seeing one somewhat consistent comment regarding "possession" of the food bag, meaning having it in your tent, hammock or backpack, which qualifies as possession. I understand the concept, and assuming I accept it, follow it, what specifically does one do with a hammock? Hang the bag outside on the strap? Place directly beneath the hammock? Normally, there is not enough room inside my hammock for a full food bag.

What do you veteran hangers do, again, assuming you are not tree hanging.

Thanks.

[T.S.Kobzol]

Put it under your knees


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[TwoRoads]

Let me preface this by saying I respect the prerogative of all hikers to "hike their own hike." And this includes the different opinions and approaches to this topic. That said:

I am really kind of shocked by the number of hikers here (and many of you are fairly experienced), who trust the practice of sleeping with your food. First I would say that the low number of bear attacks are probably just as influenced by the infrequency humans venturing into bear habitat (compared with other risks) as by the shyness of bears (black bears in particular). My second point would be that most of the reasons given here for the willingness to sleep with food are personal anecdotes; not based on research or expert opinions. A hiker might hike for 1,000 miles sleeping with their food, and conclude that it's safe to do. But the conclusion can still be wrong. And the possible consequences of being wrong on sleeping with food are 1) Facing a life-threatening situation, 2) Increasing the chances that a food-conditioned bear will have to be destroyed, and 3) Increasing the chances that other hikers will face life-threatening situations with a food-conditioned bear.

I'd like to inject a couple of things that I don't think have been mentioned here that probably indicate that sleeping with one's food is unwise and risky. First, in my reading of reliable sites (National Geographic, National Park Service, Geology.com, Smithsonianmag.com, and others, I have yet to find any bear expert who has not strongly advised against sleeping with food. Second, bears may be undergoing food stress because of environmental conditions that we may not recognize or be aware. Third, Smithsonianmag as well as other sources advise that the most dangerous human/bear interaction is not with a mother bear defending her cubs, but instead with hungry, lone, male bears.

According to Smithsonianmag.com, "Keep food and garbage away from bears. Food or garbage was present in 38 percent of the documented fatal black bear attacks, and the scent may have attracted the bears. In addition, the scientists speculate the presence of food may make the bears more aggressive, thus increasing the possibility of an attack."

I am far more inclined to trust the advise of bear experts, who have had a career observing and studying as well as often being involved (or at least being knowledgeable) with research than I am to trust anecdotes, logic, or limited personal experience. I'm not saying this to criticize anyone; just to address the original question with what I consider to be the best available information.

[T.S.Kobzol]

No one, in this sue happy society, will ever recommend that you sleep with your food. Liability.


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[Fredt4]

Let me preface this by saying I respect the prerogative of all hikers to "hike their own hike." And this includes the different opinions and approaches to this topic. That said:

I am really kind of shocked by the number of hikers here (and many of you are fairly experienced), who trust the practice of sleeping with your food. First I would say that the low number of bear attacks are probably just as influenced by the infrequency humans venturing into bear habitat (compared with other risks) as by the shyness of bears (black bears in particular). My second point would be that most of the reasons given here for the willingness to sleep with food are personal anecdotes; not based on research or expert opinions. A hiker might hike for 1,000 miles sleeping with their food, and conclude that it's safe to do. But the conclusion can still be wrong. And the possible consequences of being wrong on sleeping with food are 1) Facing a life-threatening situation, 2) Increasing the chances that a food-conditioned bear will have to be destroyed, and 3) Increasing the chances that other hikers will face life-threatening situations with a food-conditioned bear.

I'd like to inject a couple of things that I don't think have been mentioned here that probably indicate that sleeping with one's food is unwise and risky. First, in my reading of reliable sites (National Geographic, National Park Service, Geology.com, Smithsonianmag.com, and others, I have yet to find any bear expert who has not strongly advised against sleeping with food. Second, bears may be undergoing food stress because of environmental conditions that we may not recognize or be aware. Third, Smithsonianmag as well as other sources advise that the most dangerous human/bear interaction is not with a mother bear defending her cubs, but instead with hungry, lone, male bears.

According to Smithsonianmag.com, "Keep food and garbage away from bears. Food or garbage was present in 38 percent of the documented fatal black bear attacks, and the scent may have attracted the bears. In addition, the scientists speculate the presence of food may make the bears more aggressive, thus increasing the possibility of an attack."

I am far more inclined to trust the advise of bear experts, who have had a career observing and studying as well as often being involved (or at least being knowledgeable) with research than I am to trust anecdotes, logic, or limited personal experience. I'm not saying this to criticize anyone; just to address the original question with what I consider to be the best available information.
"Keep food and garbage away from bears."

This is the reason I sleep with my food. Hanging the food is not an effective method of keeping the food away from the bears. As noted in the posts above most hikers can not effectively hang their food because the selection of trees or the experience of the bears in getting the food from the trees. You may choose to believe that the bears will be defeated by the food hangs, but it's not what most hikers will state the result is. Once you accept that hanging the food isn't about protecting the hikers then you're able to see the errors in food hanging, until then you're fighting a battle that you're bound to lose. Sleeping with my food allows me to avoid the errors that hanging the food instills. I've yet to find a slew of bear attacks caused by sleeping with the food, but it's fairly certain that hanging the food is a certain path to having a bear getting the food. So, you decide whether you hang to protect yourself of whether you sleep with the food to protect the bears.

[SWODaddy]

No one, in this sue happy society, will ever recommend that you sleep with your food. Liability.


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Yep.

I'll add, if a food scent was present in 38% of fatal black bear attacks, that would imply there was no scent present in 62% of fatal black bear attacks - ie, no correlation and supporting the argument that they are preying on the people and not their dehydrated beef stroganoff.

[Crossup]

To add to any analysis of the presence or lack of food, also consider how our food situation varies. For example this Friday I will start hiking in SNP where bears are very likely to be food conditioned AFAIK. BUT my food will be 100% sealed MH etc will very little odor and by the time I'm in Harpers I will be carrying several opened and used containers which will have nice smelly, aged food remnants(an argument for cleaning ALL containers) but little bear activity, which represents a greater risk? And how does such correlate with known bear attacks? Having food does NOT tell the full story of how it may or may not have influenced a bear attack. Its all in the details we rarely get.

[Tipi Walter]

My general rule of thumb is to sleep with my food everywhere that bears are not protected from hunting, and hang or use a bear canister everywhere they're protected. Yes, there's obviously exceptions.

My food isn't safer while hung, but I am as the bears in these areas often have no fear of humans and associate them with food. Black bears become dependent on the food source and then become more aggressive as measures (bear boxes, cables, canister rules, etc.) are implemented.

Too often in these threads, people conflate opportunistic stealing of food with predatory attacks by black bears. A day hiker (or even a person in hammock) being killed by a bear has nothing to do with food storage.

Excellent post. Like Lone Wolf I keep all my 40-50 lbs of food in my tent vestibule---. I used to try to hoist 50 lbs of food on a bear line but I never could get it more than about 5 feet off the ground. And I think black bears understand the notion---"He (me) will defend his kill!!".




Yes I've read that a bear's sense of smell is ~21x better than the average dog (which is 100x better than the avg. human). If that's the case, I figure I'm toast anyway -


Yes, agree. This has been my understanding too---about a bear's incredible sense of smell.

Let's say you hang your food bag. What about the 1-2 lbs of dinner inside your stomach's food bag? How are you gonna hang that? And aren't we all just walking or sleeping cheese sticks to a bear? So do we hang our bodies up in a tree all night in case a bear wants to eat our greasy bodies???

[devoidapop]

To Tipi and others with many years experience keeping your food in your shelter, how often have bears come sniffing around your camp? Of those, how many were more persistent and started pawing at your tent or poking around under your tarp?

[Tipi Walter]

To Tipi and others with many years experience keeping your food in your shelter, how often have bears come sniffing around your camp? Of those, how many were more persistent and started pawing at your tent or poking around under your tarp?

I don't backpack in the Smokies because of their burdensome rules (and where their black bears are protected)---and with their 11 million tourists---so I can't speak for the Park. But I backpack everywhere else in the Southeast and generally where black bears are hunted (except for the Citico bear preserve---spent hundreds of nights in Citico)---and have never had a bear come sniff my tent or paw it.

By far the worst mammal pests are hunting dogs left to roam unsupervised for days at a time. These beasts will claw apart a tent, jump inside and claw your thermarest, and steal food bags. Mice will also chew apart food bags but they will do the same with hanging food as they scurry down the cord. I take a few mouse traps.

I've seen dozens of black bears over the years while hiking and about 4 or 5 circling my camp and tent when I'm not hiking and just hanging out in camp. They were never tempted to get my food.

I suppose one day when my number's up I could get eaten by a black bear---or crushed by a falling tree trunk or tree limb---or hit by lightning---or burst a heart artery or stroke out. Or die on the couch watching TV.

[devoidapop]

To Tipi and others with many years experience keeping your food in your shelter, how often have bears come sniffing around your camp? Of those, how many were more persistent and started pawing at your tent or poking around under your tarp?

I don't backpack in the Smokies because of their burdensome rules (and where their black bears are protected)---and with their 11 million tourists---so I can't speak for the Park. But I backpack everywhere else in the Southeast and generally where black bears are hunted (except for the Citico bear preserve---spent hundreds of nights in Citico)---and have never had a bear come sniff my tent or paw it.

By far the worst mammal pests are hunting dogs left to roam unsupervised for days at a time. These beasts will claw apart a tent, jump inside and claw your thermarest, and steal food bags. Mice will also chew apart food bags but they will do the same with hanging food as they scurry down the cord. I take a few mouse traps.

I've seen dozens of black bears over the years while hiking and about 4 or 5 circling my camp and tent when I'm not hiking and just hanging out in camp. They were never tempted to get my food.

I suppose one day when my number's up I could get eaten by a black bear---or crushed by a falling tree trunk or tree limb---or hit by lightning---or burst a heart artery or stroke out. Or die on the couch watching TV.

I kinda figured that would be the answer. Bears in the woods are probably much like sharks in the ocean, around us much more often than we realize and want nothing to do with us.

[Tipi Walter]

While I've seen many bears and wild pigs---COYOTES are the real mammals who rule the forest. I spend alot of time hiking and camping in the snow and it's amazing to wake up every morning and leave my tent and see coyote prints all around my camp. These guys check out everything. And you'll never know they're out and about as you sleep.

Which reminds me of a story---I was camping on top of Flats Mt in TN at 4,000 feet and woke up one morning and found a huge pile of Bear crap right next to my tent.

42818
My camp on Flats Mt. (I hung my food bags so I could go on a dayhike water run and not leave my food on the ground unattended).

Moral of the story?? These creatures---bears, pigs, coyotes---all know we're out with them. They smell, observe, investigate etc. And for the most part 99% of the time they keep their distance.

[martinb]

That's pretty interesting Walter. coyotes do the same down here. I usually find their tracks, from overnight, near my camps in the morning when I'm out in Ocala National forest. That and the predictable raccoon prints.

[Lone Wolf]

To Tipi and others with many years experience keeping your food in your shelter, how often have bears come sniffing around your camp? Of those, how many were more persistent and started pawing at your tent or poking around under your tarp?

never had a bear sniff around my tent

[Crossup]

And then there is this: SNP has closed Bluff Trail for backcountry camping due to bear activity but are saying Gravel Springs shelter is fine....they are separated by less than 500'. Could it be bears dont like to climb trails?Or they have been discouraged from visiting shelters because the bear hang is difficult to defeat?

[T.S.Kobzol]

Devil's Advocate (https://www.apnews.com/15b8cd35fb0f405c858d12a69d91c3ff/Food-seeking-bear-bites-man-in-Gila-National-Forest)

[FreeGoldRush]

never had a bear sniff around my tent
Every other animal does. But not bears? Ha! Deep sleep on the trail is priceless.

[SWODaddy]

To Tipi and others with many years experience keeping your food in your shelter, how often have bears come sniffing around your camp? Of those, how many were more persistent and started pawing at your tent or poking around under your tarp?

About 20yrs ago I had one walk up to my tent - I watched him press his nose into the side.

All my food (and everything else except for what we needed to sleep) was 30ft away in the trunk of my car at the time.

[Lone Wolf]

Every other animal does. But not bears? Ha! Deep sleep on the trail is priceless.

correct. no bears sniffed around my tent.i'm a very lite sleeper. i'm a Marine

[blw2]

interesting discussion. I have very little experience camping in bear country
I've got to say thought that I think the most logical idea is what tipwalter mentioned....what about the food in our stomachs? residue on our hands? and our own bodies are food for a carnivore! Exactly along the lines I've thought for a long time.

My other thought is that hanging to me, seems mostly a defense against rodents, coons, etc.... especially if given the idea that so many hangs are sub-par for whatever reasons.... These threats are the ones that I've camped around most....so I'd guess that they pretty much apply almost everywhere...not just bear country

[SC_Forester]

My section hike this year I would come across people each day that the mice destroyed gear looking for food. That included chewing though tents. As a side note A couple of years a go I was working with a ranger from Western North Carolina that was telling me they had a sow that was successfully able to open BearVaults and was teaching her cubs to do the same AND they had a male bear that would steel a can, toss it over a cliff, let let gravity open it, and then chow down.

[Sojourner74]

what about the Ursack? How's that working for you guys?

[BuckeyeBill]

what about the Ursack? How's that working for you guys?

I have the AllMitey and I haven't had any problems for 2 years.

[CalebJ]

A friend's ursack was shredded by a bear on Mount Mitchell a few months ago when we camped there. Didn't look like it held up for long at all.

[AngryGerman]

Like SWODaddy the only places I hang my food are where the bears are not hunted. I will use the bear boxes where mandatory if I actually hang my hammock near a shelter or campsite. With that being said; in all the years I've been hiking on the AT I've slept with my food the rest of the time. I've had more issues with critters chewing on my pack straps or trekking pole straps when I am lazy and don't hang said items.

Bears will smell your food whether it is in your pack, in the air or in your car. They smell the odors on your clothes and gear. They smell your toothpaste and tp. They smell your fear. If you are going to be attacked by a bear its because that is your path. Black Bears are about possession. If they feel you have possession of something they will not try and take it. Opportunistic feeders and gathers they are. The smartest black bear will get the best hang every time. Seen bears climb bear poles, cable ties and the likes. So to me it seems you and the rest of us are in quite a pickle huh!?

Ursack Mity is your best light weight option as to a bear canister. I use scent proof sealable bags for waste and food. For a long time my food bag was a stuff sack from OR that was waterproof. Upgrade to the Ursack for critters and westerly adventures. PCT hang(easiest) and the eagle hang.

[LazyLightning]

Didn't realize so many people don't hang there food but it makes me feel better now when there's a bunch of people camping and mine is hung.... Same thing sometimes I do a hang I feel isn't the greatest but you know there's at least 5 easier ones for the bears to get

[Malto]

Didn't realize so many people don't hang there food but it makes me feel better now when there's a bunch of people camping and mine is hung.... Same thing sometimes I do a hang I feel isn't the greatest but you know there's at least 5 easier ones for the bears to get

Wrong. They will go after your half a$$ed hang because it was left unattended in the woods. Would the bear rather go after food left in the woods or guarded by a potential dangerous protector? I think this has an obvious answer.

As far as this age old debate, canisters would give peace of mind and is 99.99% effective. Crappy hangs are at the opposite end of the spectrum, the worst possible option. I truly believe sleeping with food is much closer to canister effectiveness than crappy hangs. And 90% of the hangs I have seen are a joke.

Here is by far the best hang of my career.
42961

[virgil]

I almost always follow the same routine, but I'm big on routines. I'm happy to utilize bear cables, a bear pole, or best of all, a bear box. But, none of them being available, I find a decent branch somewhere away from camp, and string up my food and cooking stuff. Granted, some hangs are better than others, but the idea of keeping my food away from camp, and up in the air, seems like a good idea to me. Anyway, it gives me something to do. I take it as a little camp challenge each evening. You actually get so you're fairly good at it, and then it's not a huge deal. Bears are a tiny bit overplayed, but they are out there.

[DownYonder]

I use a method that I have not seen discussed. A) All unopened packages are placed in the freezer bag in which they will be cooked. All open packages like trail mix are double bagged in freezer bags. This food is kept in a bag inside my tent's vestibule with the socks and shirt that I wore that day draped over the bag. I also sleep with bear spray handy. B) All trash is placed in a sacrificial bag and hung 20'-30' from my tent. Attached to the bag is a 130db alarm similar to the one linked below. The bag/alarm is set to go off if the pin in the alarm is pulled out....very easy to set up and it will awaken the dead for a square mile!

Fortunately this system has not been tested while backpacking but the alarm worked very well at the bird feeders in my yard after they had been raided twice by bears. The 3rd raid was stopped and they have not been back for two years even though my trail cam has shown them 1/4 mile from our house.

https://www.amazon.com/Vigilant-130dB-Personal-Alarm-Flashlight/dp/B005BDBV18/ref=sr_1_21_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1529587365&sr=8-21-spons&keywords=mace+alarm&psc=1

[Lnj]

Wrong. They will go after your half a$$ed hang because it was left unattended in the woods. Would the bear rather go after food left in the woods or guarded by a potential dangerous protector? I think this has an obvious answer.

As far as this age old debate, canisters would give peace of mind and is 99.99% effective. Crappy hangs are at the opposite end of the spectrum, the worst possible option. I truly believe sleeping with food is much closer to canister effectiveness than crappy hangs. And 90% of the hangs I have seen are a joke.

Here is by far the best hang of my career.
42961

That is The "perfect" hang, but.... Easy for a bear to climb that tree and just break that little limb, then go on down and feast. These bears are getting pretty darn resourceful.

[Lnj]

I use a method that I have not seen discussed. A) All unopened packages are placed in the freezer bag in which they will be cooked. All open packages like trail mix are double bagged in freezer bags. This food is kept in a bag inside my tent's vestibule with the socks and shirt that I wore that day draped over the bag. I also sleep with bear spray handy. B) All trash is placed in a sacrificial bag and hung 20'-30' from my tent. Attached to the bag is a 130db alarm similar to the one linked below. The bag/alarm is set to go off if the pin in the alarm is pulled out....very easy to set up and it will awaken the dead for a square mile!

Fortunately this system has not been tested while backpacking but the alarm worked very well at the bird feeders in my yard after they had been raided twice by bears. The 3rd raid was stopped and they have not been back for two years even though my trail cam has shown them 1/4 mile from our house.

https://www.amazon.com/Vigilant-130dB-Personal-Alarm-Flashlight/dp/B005BDBV18/ref=sr_1_21_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1529587365&sr=8-21-spons&keywords=mace+alarm&psc=1

That's a pretty cool little thing. May be a good thing to have on ya anyway in case of any time of real emergency. I imagine people would come to investigate that sound if heard and bear and dogs and raccoons and skunks and all the critters near you when that goes off would probably be moving in the opposite direction rather quickly.

[LazyLightning]

Wrong. They will go after your half a$$ed hang because it was left unattended in the woods. Would the bear rather go after food left in the woods or guarded by a potential dangerous protector? I think this has an obvious answer.

As far as this age old debate, canisters would give peace of mind and is 99.99% effective. Crappy hangs are at the opposite end of the spectrum, the worst possible option. I truly believe sleeping with food is much closer to canister effectiveness than crappy hangs. And 90% of the hangs I have seen are a joke.

Here is by far the best hang of my career.
42961

Yea so your best hang is what I mean by not being totally satisfied with one, being on such a dead looking branch and all. ...
I would also think about mice chewing through my tent or attracting small rodents or any other animals with food in my tent, not just bears... I know, knowbody else had that happen so its all good.
I'm rarely not satisfied with a hang but there are times when a good one is hard to find. I actually felt better doing my own hangs then using some of the provided cables, particularly in GA.... The food bags were hanging so low a bear could have easily stood on its back legs and either got them or cut them open spilling the food.

[Berserker]

Here is by far the best hang of my career.
42961
As a former regular hanger this is a thing of beauty...well done!

[Berserker]

A couple of points that folks bring up on this thread that are of interest actually support the practice of sleeping with the food. One point is the fact that hanging food is basically broadcasting the smell all over the place if there is any breeze, which there normally is about 99% of the time. If you have the food bagged up and inside the tent then food smells aren't being blown all over the woods.

The other issue is small critters. There's talk of paranoia (I say this because there were very few documented actual incidents in this thread) of mice and/or other critters chewing a hole in the tent. There is not a lot of evidence that this happens very often, so I'd say it's a fairly rare occurrence.

I'm not gonna go on record and tell people to sleep with their food, but if one chooses to I do have a couple of tips:
1. Bag everything up and put it in something. I use a sil-nylon food bag that's placed in a trash bag that I close. I then put that in my empty pack in my tent. Can a bear still smell the food? I'm sure it can, but this likely knocks any odors back significantly.
2. Carry stuff that that's sealed and/or doesn't stink to high heaven.

[Lnj]

So maybe the ultimate answer is to get a 2nd mortgage on your home and buy a Bearikade, then sleep with it inside your tent. Doubles as a camp seat too and possibly a level area to cook if you are in unlevel terrain. Then, if you make the mistake of leaving it unattended, you will likely have your shelter shredded, but the bear won't get the payoff at the end, and if you can find it, you can still eat while sitting out it the rain. No other critters will get to it either, which is another plus. Might make a nice nightstand in the tent? Convenient for those midnight munchies?

My only concern about sleeping with food is how much do I trust that the progression of boldness of these table-fed bears, won't ever get to the level that they are willing to challenge me for my "kill"? Especially those who are already SO people food ingrained that if we all start protecting our food better that it leads to a shortage for the bears and some begin to reach desperation. Is that a real concern or am I being overly dramatic?

[Dogwood]

The proper thing to do is keep wildlife wild. Don't let wildlife get your food. That also means being mindful of not leaving behind cooking trash, food packaging, cross contaminating food with gear, CS's, etc. It means proper disposal of cook remains.

I like what Handlebar recently said about how he cleans his small cook pot swishing around water, his spork after eating and finger and then drinking the water. A quick wipe from a bandanna or micro fiber ditty rag leaves little to nothing to contaminate the CS for those too follow. I've been doing the same for many yrs born out of water logistics management on desert hikes and wanting to build in the skill of not requiring to always camp at a water source. Keeping gear especially pack, cookware, and food bags regularly washed should be a priority.

[Dogwood]

I can't help but notice the large number of posts regarding campsites being closed due to bears. I think Strategic put it perfectly that it is not so much an issue of the bear eating your food or attacking you, but rather the bears seeing it as a food source/opportunity. I, for one, could not care less about your food. After all, it is YOUR food, not mine. But if campsites that I want to use are being closed due to bears seeing them as a potential food source, and the solution that is being suggested by the people who's job it is to manage these areas is to hang my food, then I will hang my food.

I think this is an issue of problem framing. Are you trying to protect your food or are you trying to reduce impact and prevent the attraction of animals to campsites. The question may change your answer. Perhaps a bear canister is the solution to your problem?

I congratulate everyone who has never lost their food to a bear. I am sure you are responsibly controlling your food and trash in order to minimize your impact. The unfortunate thing is that some are not responsible, and see you keeping your food in your tent as an excuse to not hang their own food. This isn't the root of the problem, but that does not make it any less true.

I find "it is how I have always done it" to be a lazy answer to this. I will admit that change is difficult, and I am rarely surprised but still frustrated when people do things solely because of convenience.


Best post on this thread and sleeping with food. Don't let it come down to just you protecting your food. That's not always good enough. Reducing impact and preventing the attraction of animals to campsites should ALSO be included.

[Jayne]

what about the Ursack? How's that working for you guys?

It works great unless a bear has a go at it. It did keep the bear from getting my food but the bear bear shredded everything in my bag - through the OPSACK, through the 1 gallon zip lock, through the 1 quart ziplock, and through the food packaging. About 50% of my food was so shredded it was completely unusable (e.g. a mixed puddle of mixed dehydrated dinners, gatorade, jellied honey bun remnants, and bear saliva in the bottom of the bag) and the other 50% was edible as long as I wasn't too squeamish about bear slobber. Of course it rained for the next 2 days on me so in addition to the holes and bear slobber, the salvaged food got wet from the weather. I could probably return it and get a new one because some of the holes in the bag were bigger than .25" (depending on how you measure it I guess) but I will never use one again.

[martinb]

A couple of points that folks bring up on this thread that are of interest actually support the practice of sleeping with the food. One point is the fact that hanging food is basically broadcasting the smell all over the place if there is any breeze, which there normally is about 99% of the time. If you have the food bagged up and inside the tent then food smells aren't being blown all over the woods.


A bear, in the area, is going to smell the food whether you hang it or keep it in your tent. The gamble involved, if you sleep with it, is whether the bear will be fearful enough not to make an attempt at getting it.

[Dogwood]

The goal is not to sleep with your food, which is mostly done out of human convenience. It's in how to protect food from wildlife AND! reducing impact and preventing the attraction of animals to campsites...NOT just for yourself but all that might follow. If there exists many problematic hangs the answer is in learning how to execute better hangs OR using a canister or Ursack...NOT sleeping with food. Offering in a public forum the general idea TO ALL that sleeping with food is a OK is bad advice.

[shelb]

Russian Roulette??? Go for it!

[Bubblehead]

Hiking from Wind Gap, Pa. to Katahdin starting 5/3/19....gonna go with a bear canister this time...have used z packs bear bag from Springer to Mt. Everett in Mass. in 16 and 17. trying to simplify...went stoveless from Pearisburg, Va to Pawling, NY, and that went great. Gonna go with the canister this time...one less thing to do once you reach camp...no cooking, no hanging bear bag....keeping it as simple as possible...

[RockDoc]

Another vote for sleeping with food with rare exceptions of known hazard or high risk

[Deadeye]

I'm a lazy hiker. I loathe hanging a food bag. I also don't want mice getting into my food or ruining bags/packs trying to. I also want a place to put cool stickers. That's why I use a BV450.

Dang - I've been using a BV for years and never thought to put stickers on it!!! Trouble is, all my stickers smell like bananas.

[bighammer]

I have used LocSak odor-proof bags and keep all food in one and trash in the other. My only encounter was snacking on some peanut M&M's in my tent late one night. Never did that again. :eek:

[scope]

Dang - I've been using a BV for years and never thought to put stickers on it!!! Trouble is, all my stickers smell like bananas.

You’re a monkey?


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[NH_]

Didn't hang or store my food outside my tent after beauty spot, TN. And even before that always slept with my breakfast. Do what makes you feel comfortable.

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[Five Tango]

I currently use an Ursack S-29 All White with certification tag and the aluminum liner and double bag the contents in Base Camp odor resistant bags.It serves a stool in camp and is easy to tie to the fork of a tree.Not mouse proof but so far no mouse has found it cause I sleep in the woods and avoid mouse hotels except for the picnic table.

While it is true that the bear might think you would fight to "protect your kill" for food stored where you sleep,I would rather not tempt them to try it because I may be too much of a wimp to defend mine.There was a bear run over 2 counties south of me that weighed 564 pounds just last week.His picture with the DNR officials that reported the incident was enough to get my attention and give me pause.

[Colter]

...Would the bear rather go after food left in the woods or guarded by a potential dangerous protector? I think this has an obvious answer.

As far as this age old debate, canisters would give peace of mind and is 99.99% effective. Crappy hangs are at the opposite end of the spectrum, the worst possible option. I truly believe sleeping with food is much closer to canister effectiveness than crappy hangs. And 90% of the hangs I have seen are a joke...

Truth, Malto.

[Bwana59]

I've done quite a bit of backpacking in Yellowstone, you couldn't pay me enough to sleep with my food. (I gave away a pocket full of Jolly Ranchers last summer in the AT, because I had already hung my food).

I use the PCT method of hanging my food and cooking equipment, with a down haul line attached away from my tent or a trail.
With the bear population in the U.S. getting larger, all it will take is a drought to reduce the amount of berries and nuts in a given area and there are going to be people having guests in their tents in the middle of the night wanting to check out their food bag.

[GolfHiker]

So, maybe I’m bored, but it seemed right to review all the responses, and since I started this thread, and wanted to keep an unofficial score, I did. While there were 104 posts, quite a few were from the same poster(s) simply responding to a post or amplifying an earlier comment. All in all I was surprised at the results, but not at the sincere and strong positions taken. Lots of personal experience, some research cited, pros and cons aplenty, just as I expected.

In my most unscientific accounting I declare the following: Sleep with your food - 25; Never sleep with your food- ( Hang, poles, cables, boxes) 25; Variation of both based on locale, bear activity - 4; Suck it up and carry a bear canister -8.

I seriously doubt if anyone changes their personal style of food storage after following this thread, but as always, it’s been fun reading. Thanks.

[jigsaw]

a couple thoughts my wife and just returned from a week section hike from fontana south to franklin.
our food storage was this we slept with it 2 nights, hung a perfect pct method 2 nights, stood back and said yup looks like the picture.
and hung 2 of the sorriest hangs ever stood back and said yup be lucky if its there in the morning. whatever happened to the days when we just hung it
on the mouse hangers in the shelter.did this way for 20 plus years with no problem. now people come unglued if you mention this. yet every shelter still has a handful. the lack of good trees to hang from makes it hard, maybe the local clubs could just run a horizontal rope between 2 trees that we can hang from pretty cheap option compared to a bearbox

[Daideo]

Quite an interesting topic. I prefer using a hard canister. But your sleeping with your food poses no additional risk to me. Your awesome/sketchy/absolutely crappy hang poses no additional risk to me.

My own opinion is that the best approach is what is risk acceptable to each individual, personally.

[martinb]

Sleeping with your food can result in situations that lead to this:

https://www.ocala.com/news/20190318/fwc-removes-kills-bear-from-ocala-national-forest-campsite

Not worth it for people or bears. FWIW, this bear tried to get into my bear can just before Thanksgiving. On each of my continuing visits the bear's behavior was getting worse and it would raid tents right after sunset rather than waiting for midnight. It never came back to my campsites because it knew my food was unobtainium.

[Time Zone]

Quite an interesting topic. I prefer using a hard canister. But your sleeping with your food poses no additional risk to me. Your awesome/sketchy/absolutely crappy hang poses no additional risk to me.


You seem very certain. How can you be sure that a bear that associates tents with food is going skip checking out yours? You think it can tell you have used a canister instead?

Consider this quote from the article martinb linked:


... a group of campers set up their tents with no food, toiletries or other attractants inside. Following BearWise guidelines, the group was cooking dinner approximately 50 yards from their campsite when a bear entered their tent, the release notes.

“These people were doing exactly what they needed to do to not draw bears to their campsite,” said FWC bear biologist Mike Orlando in the release. “However, because some people camping in the area previously did not follow these guidelines, this bear associated tents as an easy place to find a meal, which could have resulted in a very dangerous situation for campers.”

[Daideo]

You seem very certain. How can you be sure that a bear that associates tents with food is going skip checking out yours? You think it can tell you have used a canister instead?

One could interpret your reasoning as making an argument for not using a tent because a bear might think tent = food?

I didn't claim certainty, and I can't be certain. But I did say that to me it's a personal risk decision. I personally believe that the likelihood of your scenario is so low that it poses no additional risk.

[Jayne]

Add a vote for suck it up buttercup and carry a canister :)

Sleeping with your food just sounds like a justification for doing what we all want to do (carry less weight.) I get why it's tempting but it doesn't seem like a responsible choice to me. If you encounter the wrong bear then the bear (and any other bears in the area) are in danger of being euthanized and other hikers are going to be put at risk by a habituated bear as well. Hanging can be effective but bears can be really clever at getting bags out of trees and a lot of hikers end up feeding them even if they are trying to do the right thing.

No one wants to carry a couple of extra pounds but it doesn't it seem like kind of a selfish choice to do otherwise when you consider the alternatives?

[HikerHarry]

i'll continue to sleep with my food in my tent like i have for 30 years. works for me

By extension to this line of thinking:
I've never died in a car crash so I don't need to wear a seatbelt
My house has never burned down so I don't need fire insurance
I've never had a heart attack so I don't need health insurance
I've never drowned so I don't need to wear a life jacket on that whitewater raft trip
I've never had cancer so I guess I'll keep smoking
Etc.

It's about risk mitigation. It only takes once.

[T.S.Kobzol]

I think that the reason the bear seldom enters the tent is because he senses/smells a creature in it’s “den”/territory and chooses to move on. If your food is well sealed, you cooked away from camp and cleaned up and if your food bag is directly with you in the tent then you are all set. If there is a bear that has the guts to get into your tent then he would do it regardless.


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[Colter]

By extension to this line of thinking:
I've never died in a car crash so I don't need to wear a seatbelt
My house has never burned down so I don't need fire insurance
I've never had a heart attack so I don't need health insurance
I've never drowned so I don't need to wear a life jacket on that whitewater raft trip
I've never had cancer so I guess I'll keep smoking
Etc.

It's about risk mitigation. It only takes once.

But risk mitigation should be proportional.

Car crashes kill about 35,000 people a year.
Heart disease and cancer, EACH over 600,000 a year.
There are over 300,000 house fires.
Everybody gets sick, so health insurance is sensible unless someone else is covering it for some reason.
Drowning kills about 3,500, nearly 100% preventable.
Bears kill about one person a year. Seldom, if ever, has a person in the United States been dragged out of their tent and killed because they were sleeping with their food. If a bear was going to do that, why would it be concerned about scoring some Poptarts if he could just kill and eat the person?

Now there are some places, say Yosemite, where it is both illegal and a bad idea to sleep with your food because there are known habituated bears. And if it makes someone feel better to carry a bear canister or do a very good job hanging their food, that's their call to make.

[scope]

I assume this argument has a major east coast / west coast divide. I can't fault folks for sleeping with their food in the east, but it isn't without risk.

[T.S.Kobzol]

I have done 3 hiking trips in Wyoming’s Wind River Range(14,5,5 nights). 14 out of 19 nights there were no trees at the campsites suitable for hanging food or no trees at all.




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[Daideo]

But risk mitigation should be proportional.

Spot-on! Risk = likelihood x impact, and determining how much risk is acceptable is a very personal decision. For me it's too risky to sleep with food regardless of how it's packaged, less risky to hang a food bag where that's actually possible and done correctly, least risky to stow food in an odor-proof barrier inside a bear can placed about 30 paces away from your tent. I'm willing to sacrifice the added weight for simplicity and peace of mind. I also love using the bear can as a table to cook on and eat from, as well as to clean laundry in from time to time if there's a convenient water source :-)

[Jeanine]

Not to mention there is no way I want to take the chance that a mouse gets in my sleeping bag with me!

[Jeanine]

I'm a fan of a bear canister myself. Different strokes for different folks I guess : )

[T.S.Kobzol]

I would use a bear canister if I camped in lower elevations of Yosemite or Yellowstone


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[Odd Man Out]

The OP asked " So, is there any definitive thinking on this topic that might make future decisions easier. Maybe even a study...."

Short answer: No

Long answer: Several years ago I posed this exact question via an e-mail exchange with Dr. Tom Smith, widely regarded as one of the world's foremost experts on bear biology/behavior. I was clear that the discussion was restricted to only U.S. east coast Black Bears. Dr. Smith says that that a bear's desire to avoid you is greater than its desire to get your food. This is the logic behind the "sleep with food" group. However for this to work you must keep you food in your possession 60/60/24/7 (that's 60 seconds of every minute, 60 minutes of every hour, etc...). The logic also presumes that you minimize food odors (with odor barrier food bag liners) and maximize human odor (don't wash or if you do, don't use scented toiletries). Evidence to support this rationale is that bears are never known to go after food in the pack of a hiker while hiking, and that nuisance bear behavior is most likely learned as a result of poor storage of unattended food. Dr. Smith's response to my query was that based on the best research on bear biology/behavior, the logic behind the "sleep with your food" strategy is, in fact, sound are reasonable. HOWEVER he also said that while he knows many bear researchers who sleep with their food, based on his extensive experience, HE CHOOSES NOT TO, but rather advocates the use of other methods, the best of which are canisters and electric fences (there are lightweight fence systems for solo backpacking use). He also advocates ALWAYS having bear spray, not using guns, and ignoring conventional wisdom (much of which is not based on science yet easily available in on-line discussion fora). As for research specifically designed to resolve the food debate, I'm fairly certain that no one has done the definitive study, which would be to designate a large area where all people are required to keep their food on their person 60/60/24/7 and see if bears indeed learn that backpacker's food is not free for the taking. I also seriously doubt that anyone is willing to sponsor such a study in the foreseeable future.

This article does a good job of summarizing Dr. Smith's advice on hiking in bear country - entertaining as well as informative and well researched. https://www.backpacker.com/survival/the-truth-about-bears-the-skills