Hiker Killed Fording the Kennebec

[D2maine]

http://www.wabi.tv/content/news/Body-of-missing-hiker-found-483507431.html


please do not attempt to ford...

[Lone Wolf]

he attempted to swim it not ford it

[CalebJ]

Yep. Instead of doing a planned early morning crossing, he seems to have gone straight across right when a ton of water was flowing. Predictable outcome.

[peakbagger]

It looks like it can be forded until they get out in the deeper sections, by that time no choice but to swim. Water this early in the year would have been too cold, without a wetsuit he would have lost control of his limbs in minutes. Add in big variations in daily water level due to demand for power and makes it a risky idea.

[TNhiker]

he also didnt take the advice of a law enforcement officer......

[Just Bill]

It looks like it can be forded until they get out in the deeper sections, by that time no choice but to swim. Water this early in the year would have been too cold, without a wetsuit he would have lost control of his limbs in minutes. Add in big variations in daily water level due to demand for power and makes it a risky idea.
I can't think of any bodies of water I would voluntarily enter that far north that early in the season.

Good ol' hypothermia... rarely gets credit as it's often followed by some other calamity much more interesting.
Bit like drunk driving into a tree. The tree is clearly the cause of death but...

Sucks fer his family.

[Feral Bill]

It looks like it can be forded until they get out in the deeper sections, by that time no choice but to swim. Water this early in the year would have been too cold, without a wetsuit he would have lost control of his limbs in minutes. Add in big variations in daily water level due to demand for power and makes it a risky idea. It's hard to overstate how fast cold water disables a person. When i was in the Coast Guard I saw a man made utterly helpless in a minute or less. My crew had to drag him bodily into our boat. It's sobering to think of even decades later. (Police boat got him to shore and treatment where he recovered.)

[TJ aka Teej]

Instead of doing a planned early morning crossing,

That info is decades out of date. Dam releases can happen at any hour of the day.

[peakbagger]

Ice out on lakes in the region was just happening when the deceased decided to go swimming. I used to WW kayak on occasion and the best water is with ice chunks floating in it in the spring. Even with the right gear getting dumped is quite a surprise. I have helped to haul folks out of the water in the spring who lost total control of their arms and legs in minutes. The upstream power plants are dispatched remotely by an operator somewhere far away, they play various power markets and that wall of water can come down the river anytime. There are also recreational releases that are somewhat timed for the whitewater rafters but that's just part of it.

[D2maine]

he attempted to swim it not ford it

a ford can, without warning, become a swim at that crossing - stop defending poor choices from your past.

[CalebJ]

That info is decades out of date. Dam releases can happen at any hour of the day.

Good to know, thanks for the clarification.

[egilbe]

On May 8th. Wow. Dumb.

[Miner]

When I passed through at the end of August in 2012 and had to wait 2.5 hours for the afternoon canoe, I spent time exploring the riverside trying to figure out how one could actually ford across like I had read in older accounts. Never did see a good spot as everything in the middle looked to be over my head and looked to involve a lot of swimming. Water surface did look calm and the water level was consistent the entire time, so I did wonder if a strong swimmer could actually do it. But when I hear about people fording which implies actually walking across, I have a hard time believing it's possible, but maybe my timing was just really bad.

I offer the family my condolences.

[Gambit McCrae]

Ill think twice about not waiting for that canoe now...Didn't know it was actually a risk..Shows how ignorant I still am

[rocketsocks]

Cold water and exhaustion kills when panic sets in, in water temps he prolly would’ve made it no problem, although a little further down stream than most might like.

[D2maine]

Ill think twice about not waiting for that canoe now...Didn't know it was actually a risk..Shows how ignorant I still am

thing is it looks totally doable - the problems come in if an unplanned release from one of the 2 upstream dams happens and catches you mid-river - then all bets are off

[peakbagger]

The traditional thru hiker typically was northbound and went across in late summer. Depending on the winter, the lake storage was probably low so they dam owner timed their releases to match the demand curve on the grid that ramps slowly during the morning to mid morning. Therefore someone camping on the bank would see a fairly quiet river with many mid stream sandbanks. The water was a lot warmer than early May so folks tried and most succeeded and the unfortunate ones who dies or needed rescued just were unlucky.

[Rain Man]

Ill think twice about not waiting for that canoe now...Didn't know it was actually a risk.

Yep, the risk is exactly why the ATC provides a canoe ferry in the first place, due to hikers drowing over the years.

[MuddyWaters]

a ford can, without warning, become a swim at that crossing - stop defending poor choices from your past.

The water was high. He told authorities he was going to swim. Thats what article says. Thats all we know. No info on preparedness. He knew this ahead of time and knowingly tried.

[rickb]

The water was high. He told authorities he was going to swim. Thats what article says. Thats all we know. No info on preparedness. He knew this ahead of time and knowingly tried.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/new_jersey/south-jersey-man-on-journey-of-a-lifetime-drowns-in-maine-20180525.html

[rickb]

Yep, the risk is exactly why the ATC provides a canoe ferry in the first place, due to hikers drowing over the years.

This post sugggests that more than one hiker — prior to Michael Camiso — have drowned crossing the kennebec over the years.

I do not believe that to be true.

[Deadeye]

This post sugggests that more than one hiker — prior to Michael Camiso — have drowned crossing the kennebec over the years.

I do not believe that to be true.

Alice Ference, 1985

[Deacon]

After my friend and I crossed in the canoe on August 5th last year, we stood on the bank looking for possible places to possibly ford.

Just upstream there seemed to be a string of rocks in shallows that stretched about 3/4 of the way across, but then gave way to deeper water.

I can see where that spot would tempt a hiker.

[Dogwood]

It looks like it can be forded until they get out in the deeper sections, by that time no choice but to swim. Water this early in the year would have been too cold, without a wetsuit he would have lost control of his limbs in minutes. Add in big variations in daily water level due to demand for power and makes it a risky idea.


These events are again why the canoe ferry is available and the schedule info well documented.



Risky for that time of day, time of year, probably exactly where he attempted the ford, in today's ADHD soundbites only get er dun gotta go go go impatient demanding I watched a YouTube video so now know how to do whatever - build a house, fly a helicopter, etc I know better culture, and...It can and has been forded safely otherwise.



There are YouTube vids on how to fly a helicopter, run a bulldozer, drive a tractor trailer, become your own dentist(never again needing to pay for a professional with 8 yrs accredited education), climb Mt Everest(without O2),...



This could have been some of us making comments here, if we acted rashly.



on a bright sunny day when a teenager almost drowned in less than 2 mins in a small pond at first wading into cold calm freshwater then having to swim less than 15 ft attempting to retrieve a favorite Mepps spinner stuck on a log in early April in NJ. Barely got back to the bank only 30 ft away after loosing all energy and almost all control of my limbs. Two friends were ready to jump in for me. Cold water saps energy quickly.

[JERMM]

Alice Ference, 1985

you are correct

[TNhiker]

from this article..

https://thetrek.co/crossing-the-kennebec/


“Every year we have some people who successfully ford across, but we have a higher number who try but do not make it across, and several of them have very dangerous experiences. Every year for the last nine years I have seen at least one or two who would have died without intervention from myself or another hiker.”

[rocketsocks]

Cold water and exhaustion kills when panic sets in, in water temps he prolly would’ve made it no problem, although a little further down stream than most might like.in warmer water temps...ugh, blew the shift...another demerit!

[Feral Bill]

in warmer water temps...ugh, blew the shift...another demerit! Blame the technology, that's what I​ always do.

[egilbe]

As someone who once stood in an empty Kennebec river after Harris station shut the water off while we were training to be white water guides, I know first hand how fast that water comes up when the water is turned back on. I will never ford that river. There was a fisherman's drowned in that same area because the water was low and he wandered across. When the water came back up, he was swept away. It was around the same time as Alive Terrence.

[Lone Wolf]

i've forded 6 times. good stuff. always around 7 am

[Nikkicam]

This is Michael Camiso’s sister. My brother was not inherently reckless, stupid or “rash.” He was a disabled veteran, who suffered from a TBI resulting in mental illness and early onset dementia. He had stunning moments of clarity. Before his injury and illness he was a brilliant, beautiful, healthy man who competed in triathlons. He trained in far harsher conditions in Fairbanks, AK, and undertook scouts and Rangers training. While he was ill at the time that he journeyed for the SECOND time along the Appalachian Trail, he was trained, fit and ready. He trained for HOURS a day for months before he began, and he trekked farther than many have had the pleasure of enjoying before he tragically lost his life trying to ford the river.

There was no ferry the day that my brother lost his life. A police officer reportedly told told him that the ferry could not run because the river was at flood levels. My brother then informed the police officer that he intended to cross on his own. This officer told my brother that he couldn’t, that it was too dangerous. Michael was a paranoid schizophrenic, an unfortunate byproduct of his brain injury. He reacted confrontationally, erratically in conversation with the officer, BECAUSE he was a paranoid schizophrenic. What did that officer do, in the face of a clearly irrational man, who told him that he was going to cross even though they told him he couldn’t? They LEFT. My brother was a human being with a tragic illness. He was also a hero with the type of fortitude, spirit and heart that most men NEVER achieve. EVER. My family is utterly heartbroken, and the world lost a beautiful man with an indomitable spirit. Unspeakably tragic, particularly where authorities apparently knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that an irrational, paranoid man intended to enter the raging waters of a river that he surely could not survive, and they did nothing.

[Nikkicam]

These events are again why the canoe ferry is available and the schedule info well documented.



Risky for that time of day, time of year, probably exactly where he attempted the ford, in today's ADHD soundbites only get er dun gotta go go go impatient demanding I watched a YouTube video so now know how to do whatever - build a house, fly a helicopter, etc I know better culture, and...It can and has been forded safely otherwise.



There are YouTube vids on how to fly a helicopter, run a bulldozer, drive a tractor trailer, become your own dentist(never again needing to pay for a professional with 8 yrs accredited education), climb Mt Everest(without O2),...



This could have been some of us making comments here, if we acted rashly.



on a bright sunny day when a teenager almost drowned in less than 2 mins in a small pond at first wading into cold calm freshwater then having to swim less than 15 ft attempting to retrieve a favorite Mepps spinner stuck on a log in early April in NJ. Barely got back to the bank only 30 ft away after loosing all energy and almost all control of my limbs. Two friends were ready to jump in for me. Cold water saps energy quickly.

This is Michael Camiso’s sister. My brother was not inherently reckless, stupid or “rash.” He was a disabled veteran, who suffered from a TBI resulting in mental illness and early onset dementia. He had stunning moments of clarity. Before his injury and illness he was a brilliant, beautiful, healthy man who competed in triathlons. He trained in far harsher conditions in Fairbanks, AK, and undertook scouts and Rangers training. While he was ill at the time that he journeyed for the SECOND time along the Appalachian Trail, he was trained, fit and ready. He trained for HOURS a day for months before he began, and he trekked farther than many have had the pleasure of enjoying before he tragically lost his life trying to ford the river.

There was no ferry the day that my brother lost his life. A police officer reportedly told told him that the ferry could not run because the river was at flood levels. My brother then informed the police officer that he intended to cross on his own. This officer told my brother that he couldn’t, that it was too dangerous. Michael was a paranoid schizophrenic, an unfortunate byproduct of his brain injury. He reacted confrontationally, erratically in conversation with the officer, BECAUSE he was a paranoid schizophrenic. What did that officer do, in the face of a clearly irrational man, who told him that he was going to cross even though they told him he couldn’t? They LEFT. My brother was a human being with a tragic illness. He was also a hero with the type of fortitude, spirit and heart that most men NEVER achieve. EVER. My family is utterly heartbroken, and the world lost a beautiful man with an indomitable spirit. Unspeakably tragic, particularly where authorities apparently knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that an irrational, paranoid man intended to enter the raging waters of a river that he surely could not survive, and they did nothing.

[MuddyWaters]

This is Michael Camiso’s sister. My brother was not inherently reckless, stupid or “rash.” He was a disabled veteran, who suffered from a TBI resulting in mental illness and early onset dementia. He had stunning moments of clarity. Before his injury and illness he was a brilliant, beautiful, healthy man who competed in triathlons. He trained in far harsher conditions in Fairbanks, AK, and undertook scouts and Rangers training. While he was ill at the time that he journeyed for the SECOND time along the Appalachian Trail, he was trained, fit and ready. He trained for HOURS a day for months before he began, and he trekked farther than many have had the pleasure of enjoying before he tragically lost his life trying to ford the river.

There was no ferry the day that my brother lost his life. A police officer reportedly told told him that the ferry could not run because the river was at flood levels. My brother then informed the police officer that he intended to cross on his own. This officer told my brother that he couldn’t, that it was too dangerous. Michael was a paranoid schizophrenic, an unfortunate byproduct of his brain injury. He reacted confrontationally, erratically in conversation with the officer, BECAUSE he was a paranoid schizophrenic. What did that officer do, in the face of a clearly irrational man, who told him that he was going to cross even though they told him he couldn’t? They LEFT. My brother was a human being with a tragic illness. He was also a hero with the type of fortitude, spirit and heart that most men NEVER achieve. EVER. My family is utterly heartbroken, and the world lost a beautiful man with an indomitable spirit. Unspeakably tragic, particularly where authorities apparently knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that an irrational, paranoid man intended to enter the raging waters of a river that he surely could not survive, and they did nothing.
Thank you for providing missing details.
There is not a person here that is not sorry about your brother.

Everyone just wants to learn from others experiences, and it takes discussion to do that. While such can come across as insensitive to the victim or family, its purpose is to help others avoid similar. There always will be people who choose to cross on their own.

[Offshore]

This is Michael Camiso’s sister. My brother was not inherently reckless, stupid or “rash.” He was a disabled veteran, who suffered from a TBI resulting in mental illness and early onset dementia. He had stunning moments of clarity. Before his injury and illness he was a brilliant, beautiful, healthy man who competed in triathlons. He trained in far harsher conditions in Fairbanks, AK, and undertook scouts and Rangers training. While he was ill at the time that he journeyed for the SECOND time along the Appalachian Trail, he was trained, fit and ready. He trained for HOURS a day for months before he began, and he trekked farther than many have had the pleasure of enjoying before he tragically lost his life trying to ford the river.

There was no ferry the day that my brother lost his life. A police officer reportedly told told him that the ferry could not run because the river was at flood levels. My brother then informed the police officer that he intended to cross on his own. This officer told my brother that he couldn’t, that it was too dangerous. Michael was a paranoid schizophrenic, an unfortunate byproduct of his brain injury. He reacted confrontationally, erratically in conversation with the officer, BECAUSE he was a paranoid schizophrenic. What did that officer do, in the face of a clearly irrational man, who told him that he was going to cross even though they told him he couldn’t? They LEFT. My brother was a human being with a tragic illness. He was also a hero with the type of fortitude, spirit and heart that most men NEVER achieve. EVER. My family is utterly heartbroken, and the world lost a beautiful man with an indomitable spirit. Unspeakably tragic, particularly where authorities apparently knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that an irrational, paranoid man intended to enter the raging waters of a river that he surely could not survive, and they did nothing.

Don't take anything you read here to heart. White Blaze is full of finger-wagging, self-appointed experts who are quick to criticize and pontificate without benefit of actually knowing the facts.

[TJ aka Teej]

Every guidebook says do not ford.
There are posters at every lean-to north and south of there that say do not ford.
There are signs in several spots on both banks that say do not ford.
We're told the hiker was spoken to in person and told not to ford.

I believe the authorities did what they could, so let's not blame them.

[Starchild]

...

I believe the authorities did what they could, so let's not blame them.

While we shouldn't blame them, I don't believe that it has been established that they did all they could. It is often (always?) their responsibility to evaluate the mental health of a individual and make a judgement call if they are a danger to themselves, and take appropriate action including hospitalization for evaluation by a mental health professional. I think it's fair to review their procedures and training to see if there was anything that could or should have been done in cases like this to hopefully avoid future tragedy. I think it's safe to say if they took such a action this man would still be alive.

[MuddyWaters]

Good history here of the crossing:
(And doyle, while controversial, has crossed more than any other person most likely. He claimed about 40 times around 15 yrs ago)



https://thetrek.co/crossing-the-kennebec/

[TJ aka Teej]

While we shouldn't blame them, I don't believe that it has been established that they did all they could.

Every guidebook says do not ford. < Citing ATC and MATC
There are posters at every lean-to north and south of there that say do not ford. < MATC
There are signs in several spots on both banks that say do not ford. <MATC
We're told the hiker was spoken to in person and told not to ford. < LEO (?)

I believe the authorities did what they could.

Aside from standing on both banks 24/7/365 doing physical and mental evaluations, what more could be done?

[MuddyWaters]

Should the Maine State Police stake out the next Doyle slackpack tour, and arrest him as he enters the water?

On what grounds?

[Starchild]

....

Aside from standing on both banks 24/7/365 doing physical and mental evaluations, what more could be done?

That's some thinking there, perhaps that is what should be done, but that seems to be a bit too far to me but to each their own. It would certainly speed up with rescues to have them on site, on both sides of the river, I'll give you that. Perhaps they could help hikers cross, and relieve the bottleneck during the crowed times when the bubble comes thru. (this was a bit sarcastic, but your reply seemed to be also)

You seem to be missing the point that they met him and he relayed his intentions to them, was warned about the deadly conditions and insisted that he was going to do that anyway.

I think it's incumbent for the authorities to be able to do a preliminary assessment at the time that he reveals his determination to cross the Kennebec after he hears that the water is too high, fast and cold to make it at this time of the year (not that it's good at any time). I do believe such a prelim assessment as to if they are a danger to others or themselves is usually part of such a job and their obligation (perhaps it's not in Manie, but it is in other states).

If it's not part of their job, we should consider including it and get them the training, if it is we should look as to why that didn't prevent this death. Yes we need to look at what could have been done, if anything, since the authorities did have this opportunity.

[Lyle]

As a retired paramedic, and one who has been hauled into court for acting against a patient's wishes, and acting in their best interest (the court eventually agreed with us), I have to ask. At what point do you draw the line. If I, or the police, took it upon ourselves to deny a person's free choice, and restrain them when they choose to do something foolish, we would never be out of court.

To lay this, on the police's feet, when the family did nothing to stop the person from going out and hiking 2000 plus miles, knowing that he would be facing danger and be required to make critical decisions, is entirely unfair. The family knew of his background and potential tendencies, the police did not. Do you know how many people the police encounter who, on the surface, appear to be making irrational decisions. They are not babysitters, or medical personnel who are responsible for monitoring and ultimately determining a person's mental status, particularly without he benefit of history.

It is NOT something I would want, and not something I accept, having big brother feeling responsible for my decisions.

[MuddyWaters]

The police are not mental health professionals.

Nor were they likely the first people who had a opportunity to intervene in the chain of events. Simply the last.

If the person had an known mental condition that affected decision-making, why were they allowed to be out there?

Completely rational people, make deadly mistakes and miscalculations every day as well.

Given what we were told about the victim's background, a triathelete had the water not been very cold it might not have been impossible. It's at least plausible to believe that the victim rationally believed they could do it.

[Slo-go'en]

Simply make it illegal to ford the river. $5,000 fine and 1 year in jail. If you die, your family is responsible to pay the fine and all associated retrieval costs. It would be easy enough to put in electronic surveillance on the Caratunk side to enforce the law. The first person they nail would pay for the system.

What if the shuttle is not yet in operation? You have to walk around to the bridge.

[MuddyWaters]

Simply make it illegal to ford the river. $5,000 fine and 1 year in jail. If you die, your family is responsible to pay the fine and all associated retrieval costs. It would be easy enough to put in electronic surveillance on the Caratunk side to enforce the law. The first person they nail would pay for the system.

What if the shuttle is not yet in operation? You have to walk around to the bridge.

People know the risks.
There's no way to get there and not know the risks.

Last time I checked all manner of pfds and pack rafts and such are also available.
People choose not to use such , or the ferry, that's on them.

Despite severe warnings that it kills
People still smoke
67% of smokers die of smoking-related illness
That's substantially higher than the percent of people that die from fording the Kennebec
Perhaps we should arrest smokers? Make it illegal?

Or better yet let's just let them live with their choice, or not.

[cmoulder]

People know the risks.
There's no way to get there and not know the risks.

Last time I checked all manner of pfds and pack rafts and such are also available.
People choose not to use such , or the ferry, that's on them.

Despite severe warnings that it kills
People still smoke
67% of smokers die of smoking-related illness
That's substantially higher than the percent of people that die from fording the Kennebec
Perhaps we should arrest smokers? Make it illegal?

Or better yet let's just let them live with their choice, or not.
+1

Every year at least 2 or 3 people die at Kaaterskill Falls in the Catskills (google it!) despite signs at the bottom that starkly warn of the dangers and stating in no uncertain terms that the trail is closed. Yet they go right around the fence, clamber to the top, slip on the slime-covered rocks and fall a couple hundred feet to their deaths.

You can't stop people from doing stupid things, and occasionally they pay the ultimate price.

And sometimes people who aren't doing stupid things get killed. Stuff happens.

[Nikkicam]

Thank you for your kind and considerate response. It is greatly appreciated.

[kolokolo]

This is Michael Camiso’s sister. My brother was not inherently reckless, stupid or “rash.” He was a disabled veteran, who suffered from a TBI resulting in mental illness and early onset dementia. He had stunning moments of clarity. Before his injury and illness he was a brilliant, beautiful, healthy man who competed in triathlons. He trained in far harsher conditions in Fairbanks, AK, and undertook scouts and Rangers training. While he was ill at the time that he journeyed for the SECOND time along the Appalachian Trail, he was trained, fit and ready. He trained for HOURS a day for months before he began, and he trekked farther than many have had the pleasure of enjoying before he tragically lost his life trying to ford the river.

There was no ferry the day that my brother lost his life. A police officer reportedly told told him that the ferry could not run because the river was at flood levels. My brother then informed the police officer that he intended to cross on his own. This officer told my brother that he couldn’t, that it was too dangerous. Michael was a paranoid schizophrenic, an unfortunate byproduct of his brain injury. He reacted confrontationally, erratically in conversation with the officer, BECAUSE he was a paranoid schizophrenic. What did that officer do, in the face of a clearly irrational man, who told him that he was going to cross even though they told him he couldn’t? They LEFT. My brother was a human being with a tragic illness. He was also a hero with the type of fortitude, spirit and heart that most men NEVER achieve. EVER. My family is utterly heartbroken, and the world lost a beautiful man with an indomitable spirit. Unspeakably tragic, particularly where authorities apparently knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that an irrational, paranoid man intended to enter the raging waters of a river that he surely could not survive, and they did nothing.

So sorry for your loss.

[Captain Blue]

Another news article on the tragedy: http://www.nj.com/burlington/index.ssf/2018/05/nj_man_found_dead_on_appalachian_trail.html

[magic_game03]

I always challenge authorities so I guess it's my job to do so here. Crossed the Kennebec 3 times in '04 as the #1 NOBO. Steve was still alive in those days but didn't run the ferry that early in the year. Swam across to get a feel for the river, swam back to get my pack, swam my gear across. Definitely cold.

Lesson learned in this effort: don't wear shoes if you think you have to swim. I know this seems like a mundane tip but it is something I've learned and had to use quite a few times since. I've been going to Glacier NP quite a bit for my hiking and I have to cross the Flathead River which is substantially larger. If you think you can ford than unbuckle your pack (hip strap and chest strap!) and crocs. If you got to swim than strip down to underwear and that's it (test your pack and make sure it floats!) River crossing is one reason I switched from Osprey to Hyperlite. I loved my Osprey(s) for more than a decade but their crap when it comes to water.

I don't recommend ever crossing the Kennebec by swimming, but if you are in trouble (for whatever reason) and you need to swim, don't wear your hiking shoes/boots to cross rivers and be sure you can jettison your pack in an instant.

[rocketsocks]

Thank you for providing missing details.
There is not a person here that is not sorry about your brother.

Everyone just wants to learn from others experiences, and it takes discussion to do that. While such can come across as insensitive to the victim or family, its purpose is to help others avoid similar. There always will be people who choose to cross on their own.this ^^^^^^^^^

[Slo-go'en]

This is Michael Camiso’s sister. My brother was not inherently reckless, stupid or “rash.” He was a disabled veteran, who suffered from a TBI resulting in mental illness and early onset dementia. He had stunning moments of clarity. (snip)
There was no ferry the day that my brother lost his life. A police officer reportedly told told him that the ferry could not run because the river was at flood levels. My brother then informed the police officer that he intended to cross on his own. This officer told my brother that he couldn’t, that it was too dangerous. Michael was a paranoid schizophrenic, an unfortunate byproduct of his brain injury. He reacted confrontationally, erratically in conversation with the officer, BECAUSE he was a paranoid schizophrenic. What did that officer do, in the face of a clearly irrational man, who told him that he was going to cross even though they told him he couldn’t? They LEFT. My brother was a human being with a tragic illness. He was also a hero with the type of fortitude, spirit and heart that most men NEVER achieve. EVER. My family is utterly heartbroken, and the world lost a beautiful man with an indomitable spirit. Unspeakably tragic, particularly where authorities apparently knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that an irrational, paranoid man intended to enter the raging waters of a river that he surely could not survive, and they did nothing.

Unfortunately, the police can't do anything unless an actual crime is committed. (which is why I suggested making fording the river illegal) While crossing the river at that time was reckless, he wasn't doing it with the expressed desire to commit suicide, although that's what it amounts to. The police did their job, they told him not to do it and he did it anyway. While your brothers death was tragic, don't go trying to blame someone else for his death.

Given what you say about the state of your brothers mental health, it sounds like he was losing the ability to make rational decisions and probably should not have been allowed to do this hike alone in the first place, especially at that time of year in that part of Maine.

[WTX2WY]

Nikki, thanks for letting us know more of the details and also a little about who Michael was and how he spent his life. I am sorry for your loss.

[Nikkicam]

I am utterly speechless about the ignorance of some of the comments on this thread. First and foremost, my family DID attempt to convince my brother not to go back out on the trail. We tried MANY times to convince him to go back into the VA Hospital. Unfortunately, until and unless a mentally ill person states an intent to commit an act that is harmful to himself or others, a civilian cannot force an adult “not” to do something. In THIS case, the authorities have personally admitted to me, his sister, that they expressly told him he could not cross because it was too high, too dangerous. He then became belligerent and confrontational, as paranoid schizophrenics do. TRUST ME, when my brother had those moments NO sane individual would not recognize that he had mental health issues. A TRAINED POLICE OFFICER CERTAINLY would know. Now, I am an attorney. I am VERY well versed in what officials can and cannot do relative to the individual rights of adult people. I am ALSO very familiar with their legal obligation to prevent someone from taking an action that will almost certainly kill them. Imagine that a distraught man is standing on a bridge. He tells a police officer that he wants to leap to take a swim. The office says, hey buddy, you can’t jump, you will die. The man becomes determined, confrontational, paranoid, and says he intends to do it anyway. The officer will 99.9% of the time ABSOLUTELY take that person into custody. He stated an intent to act in a way that is suicidal, even if suicide was not his stated goal. According to the authorities, the river was at flood levels and attempting to cross was not only dangerous but impossible. The inevitable outcome was death. That is PRECISELY what happened to my brother when that officer DID NOTHING AND LEFT. For all of the Internet trolls who want to spout off about what his family could have or should have done, I hope and pray that you NEVER suffer the tragedy of watching a live one slip away into mental illness, be it the type of brain injury and associated illness my brother had, Alzheimer’s, dementia, or something else. If and when you do, remember this exchange. Remember that you so carelessly judged my family without truly understanding.

[Nikkicam]

And for those who would criticize that my brother didn’t take the ferry, when the sheriff called to tell us they’d found my brother’s body, he advised us that the ferry was not running because the river was at flood levels and it was too dangerous for the ferry to run. There was no ferry for my brother to take. Again, people who don’t know the facts are quick to judge behind the anonymity of the internet and a computer keyboard.

[Nikkicam]

Given that you are not one of my family members, your personal opinion on whether or not the police actually did their job that day is entirely irrelevant, particularly given that you are not privy to all of the details.

[Nikkicam]

Every guidebook says do not ford.
There are posters at every lean-to north and south of there that say do not ford.
There are signs in several spots on both banks that say do not ford.
We're told the hiker was spoken to in person and told not to ford.

I believe the authorities did what they could, so let's not blame them.

Given that you are not one of my family members, your personal opinion on whether or not the police actually did their job that day is entirely irrelevant, particularly given that you are not privy to all of the details.

[devoidapop]

I wonder if it would be appropriate to place a marker at the river to remember this man and to serve as a warning of the risk of death by drowning.

[TJ aka Teej]

he advised us that the ferry was not running because the river was at flood levels and it was too dangerous for the ferry to run. There was no ferry for my brother to take. Again, people who don’t know the facts are quick to judge behind the anonymity of the internet and a computer keyboard.
That's incorrect. The ferry service didn't start their service until just a few says ago.
There's not a person here that is not sorry about your brother.
I'm wondering what else you were told that's false.
Were you told where the officer was when he told your brother he shouldn't ford?

[Thefurther]

Given that you are not one of my family members, your personal opinion on whether or not the police actually did their job that day is entirely irrelevant, particularly given that you are not privy to all of the details. nikki ... sorry for your loss . this forum is full of people that like to put their thoughts down and not care about who they are hurting in the process . please for your sanity stay away from it . i have watched this forum for a few days and have watched people talk about your brother with no respect and no respect for the family member that is on here asking you all to stop . man , i just do not understand how some people can gossip about a person that passed away and actually continue with insensitive remarks after the family member has asked you people to stop . get a grip on yourselves ...

[TJ aka Teej]

I wonder if it would be appropriate to place a marker at the river to remember this man and to serve as a warning of the risk of death by drowning.

I recall that when Alice drowned there is was reported the NPS denied allowing a marker inside the AT corridor.
Her family ended up providing the funds for a lean-to, I believe.

[egilbe]

It would be ironic if the police officer was still mourning the death of Deputy Cole and decided not to confront a crazy person he didn't know. If someone is determined to kill themselves by doing something a normal thinking person wouldn't do, why would the responsibility lie with anyone other than the person making irrational decisions?

Your brother was a free person, able to make his own decisions. We don't live in a police state up here in Maine. People are allowed to.make mistakes and pay for them. The onus is not on anyone other than himself.

I'm sorry your brother came back from the war a changed person. That happens. It's one of the hortors and evils of war.

[FreeGoldRush]

As a retired paramedic, and one who has been hauled into court for acting against a patient's wishes, and acting in their best interest (the court eventually agreed with us), I have to ask. At what point do you draw the line. If I, or the police, took it upon ourselves to deny a person's free choice, and restrain them when they choose to do something foolish, we would never be out of court.
Well said. It is interesting that the people who insist on implementing forced intervention never recognize how often this sort of power has been abused throughout the world. That power comes with a huge price that the responsible people of the world have to pay.

[cmoulder]

Given that you are not one of my family members, your personal opinion on whether or not the police actually did their job that day is entirely irrelevant, particularly given that you are not privy to all of the details.
As an attorney, do you really think this is the place to hash this out?

As a former law enforcement officer, I would point out that you are also not privy to all the details because you weren't there when that conversation took place. It could be that the confrontation ended with assurances from your brother that he'd find another way across the Kennebec, just to allay the officers' concerns so that they would leave him alone and he could carry out his plan. There are so many ways this could have happened that it is maddening and pointless to speculate.

I am truly sorry for your loss and I have contributed to your GoFundMe so that Mike may be returned to your family.

May he rest in peace, and may you live in peace without malice in your heart.

[TexasBob]

...........My brother was not inherently reckless, stupid or “rash.” He was a disabled veteran, who suffered from a TBI resulting in mental illness and early onset dementia. ............Michael was a paranoid schizophrenic, an unfortunate byproduct of his brain injury..................

It seems that this man is an indirect casualty of his wartime service. It is Memorial Day so maybe we should be honoring him for his service and sacrifice rather than arguing about the circumstances of his death. You can go back to arguing tomorrow.

[RuthN]

It seems that this man is an indirect casualty of his wartime service. It is Memorial Day so maybe we should be honoring him for his service and sacrifice rather than arguing about the circumstances of his death. You can go back to arguing tomorrow.

The only intelligent and sensitive post on this thread. Nikkicam, to you and your family I offer my deepest condolences and salute your brother's service to our country.

I'd also like to share with the forum this article from The Trek which includes information on funds set up for your family and in support of other injured officers. https://thetrek.co/appalachian-trail/hiker-drowns-attempting-cross-kennebec-river/

[somers515]

First off my condolences to Nikkicam and her family.

I don't think it's disrespectful to discuss this incident however and that the "only intelligent" response is to not talk about it. As others have said I think it would be a shame to not try to learn from this tragic incident and perhaps save the next person. I know that I was only vaguely aware of the dangers of fording the Kennebec and I've learned a lot from this thread.

Here's what I can contribute, like Nikkicam I'm also a NJ attorney and while I'm not aware of what area of law she practices but I've worked extensively with law enforcement officers. Generally they are amazing people who have a very difficult job. Also generally speaking a law enforcement officer can't just seize someone because they are going to do something risky, they have to be committing a crime. People have a right to be free from unreasonable seizures - that's a constitutional right.



However what Nikkicam says is also true that in certain circumstances a law enforcement officer (or in fact anyone) can seek to involuntarily commit someone. This of course is not be done lightly and basically the officer would have to be really confident that the situation merited it. Of course the laws in each state are different in their legal standard. Again generally speaking the officer has to believe the person is mentally ill and is about to cause serious harm to himself or others.


While I have a lot of empathy for Nikkicam and her family, I also have empathy for this law enforcement officer. And I think that's where some people in this thread have bristled at Nikkicam's very confident placement of blame on this officer. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to hear the officer's side of the story before judging this officer so harshly. I also don't think it's fair to assume that the officer knew this hiker was suffering from a mental illness. Unfortunately there are a lot of people in this world who occasionally act belligerent and it's very difficult to tell whose just having a bad day or who is suffering from a mental illness. Did anyone call to let the law enforcement officers to be on the look out for this hiker and what his situation was? If he was so likely to be defiant when told by someone not to ford a river perhaps a friend or someone he trusted could have hiked with him?


In New Jersey (and likely elsewhere too) there is a trend towards starting special needs registries. One of the purposes of these voluntary registries is to provide information to law enforcement officers and it would increase their chances of being able to handle a situation appropriately. That's the good news. The bad news is of course that there also appears to be a trend of an overall decrease in funding for beds.


I've thought a lot about this incident the past couple of days and I think part of what gets people feeling so strongly is at its heart this case is about the right to do something incredibly risky - where should society draw the line and not allow someone to do something dangerous to themselves? I don't think there are any easy answers.


So thank you Nikkicam for the additional information that you provided in this thread. And on this Memorial Day I want you to know that I appreciate your brother's service and thank you to all our veterans and those who made the ultimate sacrifice.

[nsherry61]

I am somewhat intrigued by the controversy and history of swimming the Kennebec.

1) The exaggerated fear shared in this thread and others about becoming hypothermic and drowning in cold water is not surprising, but it is substantially exaggerated. Once you get past the initial shock of cold water immersion (cold water shock, which can certainly lead to people drowning), no healthy, non-panicked person will become disabled by water that is near freezing in less than two minutes. It takes about five to 10 minutes. And yes, I like swimming in cold water, including glacial lakes with ice floating in them - especially on hot summer days.

2) Any experienced swimmer should be able to swim the width of the Kennebec in less than five minutes as long as they don't waste energy trying to swim against the current. And yes, I also like swimming rivers as long as there is good runout below me so I don't get carried into a dangerous area downstream. And yes, you might get carried 1/4 mile downstream.

So, to have swimming the Kennebec be dangerous to an experienced swimmer, the swimmer would have to either panic, fail to manage the initial cold-shock, foolishly try to swim against the current to avoid being taken downstream, or be trapped or injured by rocks or other obstacles downstream. Of course, at high water, especially flood stage, the likelihood of being trapped by branches or trees in the water can be horribly high.

All these risks can be responsibly assessed in most cases. I would be significantly put out if someone told me I could not use my own knowledge and judgment to decide whether or not to swim the Kennebec. Also, if I died after choosing to the swim the Kennebec, I would be very unhappy if anyone tried to blame anyone else (or the river for that matter) for my death. It was my decision. I made the choice. Please let me take full responsibility for taking the risks I choose to take. I think I'd rather risk swimming the Kennebec than drive in downtown Boston!

[rocketsocks]

I am somewhat intrigued by the controversy and history of swimming the Kennebec.

1) The exaggerated fear shared in this thread and others about becoming hypothermic and drowning in cold water is not surprising, but it is substantially exaggerated. Once you get past the initial shock of cold water immersion (cold water shock, which can certainly lead to people drowning), no healthy, non-panicked person will become disabled by water that is near freezing in less than two minutes. It takes about five to 10 minutes. And yes, I like swimming in cold water, including glacial lakes with ice floating in them - especially on hot summer days.

2) Any experienced swimmer should be able to swim the width of the Kennebec in less than five minutes as long as they don't waste energy trying to swim against the current. And yes, I also like swimming rivers as long as there is good runout below me so I don't get carried into a dangerous area downstream. And yes, you might get carried 1/4 mile downstream.

So, to have swimming the Kennebec be dangerous to an experienced swimmer, the swimmer would have to either panic, fail to manage the initial cold-shock, foolishly try to swim against the current to avoid being taken downstream, or be trapped or injured by rocks or other obstacles downstream. Of course, at high water, especially flood stage, the likelihood of being trapped by branches or trees in the water can be horribly high.

All these risks can be responsibly assessed in most cases. I would be significantly put out if someone told me I could not use my own knowledge and judgment to decide whether or not to swim the Kennebec. Also, if I died after choosing to the swim the Kennebec, I would be very unhappy if anyone tried to blame anyone else (or the river for that matter) for my death. It was my decision. I made the choice. Please let me take full responsibility for taking the risks I choose to take. I think I'd rather risk swimming the Kennebec than drive in downtown Boston!

Truth is none of know what happened and likly never will, he could have been hung up on a log or struck, but the conditions you lay out are ideal, do you swim with pack enough to hike a long distance trail? Had you not used the word exaggeration I prolly wouldn’t have even posted, but you do no service to down play a cold water crossing, the fella wasn’t in good mental health...yours is just a ridiculous post.

[Dogwood]

I am somewhat intrigued by the controversy and history of swimming the Kennebec.

1) The exaggerated fear shared in this thread and others about becoming hypothermic and drowning in cold water is not surprising, but it is substantially exaggerated. Once you get past the initial shock of cold water immersion (cold water shock, which can certainly lead to people drowning), no healthy, non-panicked person will become disabled by water that is near freezing in less than two minutes. It takes about five to 10 minutes. And yes, I like swimming in cold water, including glacial lakes with ice floating in them - especially on hot summer days.

2) Any experienced swimmer should be able to swim the width of the Kennebec in less than five minutes as long as they don't waste energy trying to swim against the current. And yes, I also like swimming rivers as long as there is good runout below me so I don't get carried into a dangerous area downstream. And yes, you might get carried 1/4 mile downstream.

So, to have swimming the Kennebec be dangerous to an experienced swimmer, the swimmer would have to either panic, fail to manage the initial cold-shock, foolishly try to swim against the current to avoid being taken downstream, or be trapped or injured by rocks or other obstacles downstream. Of course, at high water, especially flood stage, the likelihood of being trapped by branches or trees in the water can be horribly high.

All these risks can be responsibly assessed in most cases. I would be significantly put out if someone told me I could not use my own knowledge and judgment to decide whether or not to swim the Kennebec. Also, if I died after choosing to the swim the Kennebec, I would be very unhappy if anyone tried to blame anyone else (or the river for that matter) for my death. It was my decision. I made the choice. Please let me take full responsibility for taking the risks I choose to take. I think I'd rather risk swimming the Kennebec than drive in downtown Boston!




Truth is none of know what happened and likly never will, he could have been hung up on a log or struck, but the conditions you lay out are ideal, do you swim with pack enough to hike a long distance trail? Had you not used the word exaggeration I prolly wouldn’t have even posted, but you do no service to down play a cold water crossing, the fella wasn’t in good mental health...yours is just a ridiculous post.



There's good info in Nsherry's post but he is downplaying the danger as noted by Rocketsocks. One does NOT need to be hypothermic to drown! Cold shock in itself especially in faster colder water in the 40*'s with immediate complete deep(over one's head) immersion having a backpack and possibly(likely) wearing clothing) has taken the lives of many people. Second, all can't be easily accessed by a mentally stable person never the less someone acting hastily or with a medical mental lapse as to how they will react to cold shock. This is compounded by these factors. Third, the Kennebec was at high water, high flow, and high volume stage; this makes for more current even in areas where fording is typical in a slackish current and probably resulted in an immediate swim, rather than a bit of wading as has been done and then possibly a short swim or short chest deep ford in water during lower volume and warmer water stages. Fourth, if you're still listening, and most importantly, one certainly can lose dexterity in their limbs in 5 mins or less in water 50* f. Currently, on May 27 Kennebec River water temp at noon day is 50*. In late April when this happened water temp was likely in the mid to lower 40's* at mid day.


http://www.shipwrite.bc.ca/Chilling_truth.htm


In short, swimming or attempting to deep wade the Kennebec River under the conditions Mike CHOSE to was high risk!


Again, I almost drowned becoming physically disabled in 2 mins from loss of dexterity and energy in calm cold freshwater brackish water barely over my head wearing boxer briefs as a lean body type teenager. The water temp according to my friends thermometer read 43*f.


Thanks to Somers post. It was communicated well.


Likewise, my condolences to your family.

[Malto]

I am somewhat intrigued by the controversy and history of swimming the Kennebec.

1) The exaggerated fear shared in this thread and others about becoming hypothermic and drowning in cold water is not surprising, but it is substantially exaggerated. Once you get past the initial shock of cold water immersion (cold water shock, which can certainly lead to people drowning), no healthy, non-panicked person will become disabled by water that is near freezing in less than two minutes. It takes about five to 10 minutes. And yes, I like swimming in cold water, including glacial lakes with ice floating in them - especially on hot summer days.

2) Any experienced swimmer should be able to swim the width of the Kennebec in less than five minutes as long as they don't waste energy trying to swim against the current. And yes, I also like swimming rivers as long as there is good runout below me so I don't get carried into a dangerous area downstream. And yes, you might get carried 1/4 mile downstream.

So, to have swimming the Kennebec be dangerous to an experienced swimmer, the swimmer would have to either panic, fail to manage the initial cold-shock, foolishly try to swim against the current to avoid being taken downstream, or be trapped or injured by rocks or other obstacles downstream. Of course, at high water, especially flood stage, the likelihood of being trapped by branches or trees in the water can be horribly high.

All these risks can be responsibly assessed in most cases. I would be significantly put out if someone told me I could not use my own knowledge and judgment to decide whether or not to swim the Kennebec. Also, if I died after choosing to the swim the Kennebec, I would be very unhappy if anyone tried to blame anyone else (or the river for that matter) for my death. It was my decision. I made the choice. Please let me take full responsibility for taking the risks I choose to take. I think I'd rather risk swimming the Kennebec than drive in downtown Boston!

Amen especially to the bolder part.

[Berserker]

I want to send my condolences out to the family, and thank Nikki for coming on here and providing some back story.

Having been a member of WB for 10+ years these types of stories (i.e. a news report on a bad injury or death) get posted all the time, and we are all (including myself) quick to judge without knowing all the information. After my recent foray into one of these type threads (the "Cougar" thread) I quickly remembered why I stay out of these. I know this is the internet and people have the freedom to say what they want. So I just want to nicely request that you think before you type, because you don't know who may read this now or in the future.

[Feral Bill]

I am somewhat intrigued by the controversy and history of swimming the Kennebec.

1) The exaggerated fear shared in this thread and others about becoming hypothermic and drowning in cold water is not surprising, but it is substantially exaggerated. Once you get past the initial shock of cold water immersion (cold water shock, which can certainly lead to people drowning), no healthy, non-panicked person will become disabled by water that is near freezing in less than two minutes. It takes about five to 10 minutes. As I said early in this thread, I personally have seen a person made utterly helpless in a minute or less in near freezing water. Might another person do better? Maybe, depending on circumstances. Polar Bear Plunge people seem to. I have got away with enough foolish decisions in my life already, and don't plan on pushing my luck any further..

[nsherry61]

. . . I personally have seen a person made utterly helpless in a minute or less in near freezing water. . .
Sure, panic and/or cold-shock could do that, but it could not have been from hypothermia in that length of time. And, if the person can manage to keep panic at bay and their head above water, after the first several seconds to a minute, people can regain control.

Having jumped into literally freezing water on multiple occasions before, always voluntarily and thus without surprise or panic, I have never experience "cold shock" as described in hypothermia literature, but it is apparently common and resolves within the first minute giving a person 5 to 10 minutes to rescue themselves before hypothermia sets in and disables their ability to move effectively.

[4shot]

I've thought a lot about this incident the past couple of days and I think part of what gets people feeling so strongly is at its heart this case is about the right to do something incredibly risky - where should society draw the line and not allow someone to do something dangerous to themselves? I don't think there are any easy answers.



Wonderful post somers515. I do not think we want or need the government (or its representatives) making the choices for us. (Up until the point that our decisions endanger the life of others). If you want to climb Mt. K after it is closed, or swim the Kennebec River when there is a canoe for crossing or cross the southern balds in thunderstorms or run with the bulls in Pamplona, as long as you put no others at risk, that is a choice that is an individual can and should make for themselves. Let's not ask more of our law enforcement officers than we already do.

[BlackCloud]

The NPS has now posted signs at trailheads on the South Rim of the Grand Canyon telling the story of a marathon runner who died hiking in the Canyon. Perhaps the NPS' refusal to post signs here hasto do w/ the wilderness designation of the trail. But then again, I don't want the G posting a sign everyplace in a park where someone has died. There'd be signs all over the place.

[Just Bill]

Sure, panic and/or cold-shock could do that, but it could not have been from hypothermia in that length of time. And, if the person can manage to keep panic at bay and their head above water, after the first several seconds to a minute, people can regain control.

Having jumped into literally freezing water on multiple occasions before, always voluntarily and thus without surprise or panic, I have never experience "cold shock" as described in hypothermia literature, but it is apparently common and resolves within the first minute giving a person 5 to 10 minutes to rescue themselves before hypothermia sets in and disables their ability to move effectively.
http://www.shipwrite.bc.ca/Chilling_truth.htm
http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/coastal_communities/hypothermia

Might be worth brushing up on the topic for some.

Something to consider, having had hypothermia experience myself...
I do generally agree with you, although you are incorrect in that the initial symptoms of hypothermia can occur within seconds. Ask anyone attempting to strike a match or lighter while shivering violently moments after being dunked how long it took. You are not voluntarily shivering, or warming up... your are performing an involuntary action which falls within hypothermia's scope. You can move from initial symptoms to deeper ones in one minute in the right conditions.

It seems we have both been gifted with either the experience, self awareness, or dumb luck to have been previously put in this situation with that past experience to draw from.
Not all people are.

Unfortunately you are assuming two very big "if's"...
The victim of cold shock or hypothermia is in a good physical position, for a long enough duration of time, to recover and regain control.
The victim has enough self awareness and mental prowess to do so.
If that initial gasp is from falling over into cold water, you can add choking and the mental terror of water in your lungs to the pile of unfortunate problems to deal with.
The mammalian diving reflex isn't called a choice... it's called a reflex because it is involuntary.
One could argue the simple act of educating yourself and mentally preparing for an experience may indeed be enough to get you started. Your experience of getting prepared to jump into cold water both shielded you somewhat in that initial jump... and added to your pool of past experience to draw upon should such a thing happen unexpectedly. If nothing else... simply being aware of WHAT is happening to you, gives you a big edge in correcting the problem. When people who have no knowledge of hypothermia or what is happening, the panic can quickly spiral.

What people fail to recognize about hypothermia is that it isn't freezing to death that is the concern.
If one goes out in zero degree weather then actually freezing to death is a real concern prepared well against and little danger to most travelers.

The actual danger of hypothermia is ignorance of it and how it works in normal temperatures as high as 65* F.
The signs are small and subtle, creeping, and often impair judgement without one's knowledge. They are small things... perhaps even a simple choice to proceed to the far shore rather than abort the crossing.
That slight shiver that leads to a stumble. The minor lack of willpower that leaves you to simply lie there after falling. The creeping stupidity that prevents you from taking positive action.
It's very similar to being drunk.
Some folks are better at operating while impaired than others... but that's what hypothermia really is.
Having a beer is drinking. Being a bit cold is having hypothermia.
You might not know it until you start getting a bit tipsy... but once you start sipping the cold one you begin to become impaired.

There is not a hiker here worth their shoes who hasn't stripped down to hiking clothes on a cold morning for the first half hour before they warmed up.
That's still hypothermia. Mild, under control, jaw clenched to stop yer teeth from rattling and with a clear recovery insight... but hypothermia just the same.
Hypothermia is a gentle push on the first domino.
If you are aware of it, it's quite possible to stick a mental finger in and stop the cascade.
If you are not... it's rare that people give credit where credit is due once all the domino's have fallen.


Poop occurs. A young gal who works with me is dealing with the fact her 23 year old boyfriend ran under a truck and got his head sliced clean off on the highway yesterday.

Death is a fact of life, and I have no problem with folks dying for good, bad or dumb reasons.
An may all continue to have the freedom to make their own choices and live or die by them.

If you want to offer condolences, do so.

If you want to review an incident to see if there is something to learn from it... then do so.

If this dude had a mental issue... then nothing much to learn on a personal level and hopefully he and his family can find some peace.

If this dude didn't or you want to play the 'if'n it was me' ... odds are probably high that hypothermia kicked over the first domino. From there you can set up any domino's you'd like and play your own game:
...cold water, heavy boots, lack of a large pack liner to float his pack, failure to inflate a sleeping pad or use a flotation aide, lack of awareness of fording in general, poor swimming ability, bad timing, dumb luck, panic, shock, hardheadedness, incorrect assessment of physical strengths, machismo, lack of experience, talking to Lone Wolf or Warren Doyle, crossing in Spring rather than Fall, not sitting down for a hot meal or drink before crossing cold water...

That time of year a person is likely to have a chill (mild hypothermia) just from the ambient air temp and moving all day.
If nothing else... just think of that 'hold my beer' meme going around. Just a little sip of the cold stuff may have been enough to impair judgement enough to make one small bad choice.
Maybe the thought to chuck the pack flashed by, but was ignored. Maybe many smart things rattled around in the smart part of his brain but didn't penetrate the dull fog that hypothermia causes.

It's impossible to say for sure.

Maybe it was just dumb luck... like the kid who got his head sheared off under a truck.
Maybe both these folks were just dumbasses and death by idiocy was inevitable.

Maybe the reason folks get fascinated by these events is that they like to believe that they are special somehow, and won't do anything so dumb as to be one of the 117 people a day who die in a car crash.
And certainly would never do anything so dumb as to....

[nsherry61]

. . .If you want to offer condolences, do so.

If you want to review an incident to see if there is something to learn from it... then do so. . .

Exactly to the point. Thank you.

In this case, my comments in this thread have been targeted directly at the second point. If we are trying to learn, I think it is important to learn the right lesson and not just jump to conclusions based on popular myth.

At no point do I want to suggest that hypothermia is not real or is not lethally dangerous. It is both!

I would also not want to suggest that mild hypothermia could not set in in less than 10 minutes. But the loss of dexterity in your fingers is still a few minutes ahead of loosing large muscle control.

The point I think is important is that instances where people drown or otherwise become dysfunctional in cold water in two minutes or less have nothing to do with a drop in core body temperature and everything to do with a very different set of circumstances associated with sudden submersion in cold water typical of cold-shock and or panic, NOT hypothermia. As such, our mental preparation for and our chosen actions in such situations can and should be VERY different than what we would assume for an appropriate response to reduced core body temperature.

In other words, if we are submerged in cold water, our focus needs to be to gain control of our shock and panic responses, keeping our head above water in the process, DON'T PANIC ABOUT GETTING OUT AS FAST AS POSSIBLE TO AVOID HYPOTHERMIA. If alternatively we panic about getting hypothermia (instead of focusing on calming down and knowing we have a workable 5-10 minutes) we can make bad and dangerous choices trying to extricate ourselves from a bad situation as fast as possible instead of as safe as possible!!

We will NOT be safer thinking that hypothermia can cause us to drown in two minutes or less. We will be safer if we realized that we don't have to get out of cold water as fast as possible in a dangerous panic, but instead we have a couple minutes to figure out the safest and most expedient solution to our problem, calm down, gain self control, then execute your extrication.

The sense of fear generated by the myth that people drown from hypothermia in less than two minutes is the issue I have with the misinformed comments in this and other threads that suggest people die of hypothermia in these short time frames. The focus should not be on getting out of the water as fast as possible, but to get out as safely as possible within five minutes or less, if possible.

[nsherry61]

For what it's worth, here is an interesting 3-part youtube series that is quite informative.

Part 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gOW8ZaYqHA)
Part 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyBVWrqvkEg&t=10s)
Part 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PAwzPgRYOI)

[Feral Bill]

Exactly to the point. Thank you.

In this case, my comments in this thread have been targeted directly at the second point. If we are trying to learn, I think it is important to learn the right lesson and not just jump to conclusions based on popular myth.

At no point do I want to suggest that hypothermia is not real or is not lethally dangerous. It is both!

I would also not want to suggest that mild hypothermia could not set in in less than 10 minutes. But the loss of dexterity in your fingers is still a few minutes ahead of loosing large muscle control.

The point I think is important is that instances where people drown or otherwise become dysfunctional in cold water in two minutes or less have nothing to do with a drop in core body temperature and everything to do with a very different set of circumstances associated with sudden submersion in cold water typical of cold-shock and or panic, NOT hypothermia. As such, our mental preparation for and our chosen actions in such situations can and should be VERY different than what we would assume for an appropriate response to reduced core body temperature.

In other words, if we are submerged in cold water, our focus needs to be to gain control of our shock and panic responses, keeping our head above water in the process, DON'T PANIC ABOUT GETTING OUT AS FAST AS POSSIBLE TO AVOID HYPOTHERMIA. If alternatively we panic about getting hypothermia (instead of focusing on calming down and knowing we have a workable 5-10 minutes) we can make bad and dangerous choices trying to extricate ourselves from a bad situation as fast as possible instead of as safe as possible!!

We will NOT be safer thinking that hypothermia can cause us to drown in two minutes or less. We will be safer if we realized that we don't have to get out of cold water as fast as possible in a dangerous panic, but instead we have a couple minutes to figure out the safest and most expedient solution to our problem, calm down, gain self control, then execute your extrication.

The sense of fear generated by the myth that people drown from hypothermia in less than two minutes is the issue I have with the misinformed comments in this and other threads that suggest people die of hypothermia in these short time frames. The focus should not be on getting out of the water as fast as possible, but to get out as safely as possible within five minutes or less, if possible.
Well said. I think we can agree that sudden, unexpected immersion in cold water is something to avoid. Incidentally, extended immersion in fairly warm water for can also induce hypothermia.

[fiddlehead]

How does everyone know he died from hypothermia?
I would have assumed he drowned from flooded rapids.

[nsherry61]

How does everyone know he died from hypothermia?
I would have assumed he drowned from flooded rapids.
I don't think we do know. There were just some suppositions and then judgements early in the thread. Some people jumped on the judgements. I jumped on what I perceive as a dangerous myth about people dying in cold water in under 2 minutes due to hypothermia.

In the end, I think this is really a we're sad at the loss of a "brother" and a warning that cold spring rivers and specifically the Kennebec River can be dangerous and often underestimated in their danger.

Everything else is pretty much drift.

[rocketsocks]

I don't think we do know. There were just some suppositions and then judgements early in the thread. Some people jumped on the judgements. I jumped on what I perceive as a dangerous myth about people dying in cold water in under 2 minutes due to hypothermia.

In the end, I think this is really a we're sad at the loss of a "brother" and a warning that cold spring rivers and specifically the Kennebec River can be dangerous and often underestimated in their danger.

Everything else is pretty much drift.that’s it.......

[Just Bill]

We will NOT be safer thinking that hypothermia can cause us to drown in two minutes or less. We will be safer if we realized that we don't have to get out of cold water as fast as possible in a dangerous panic, but instead we have a couple minutes to figure out the safest and most expedient solution to our problem, calm down, gain self control, then execute your extrication.

The sense of fear generated by the myth that people drown from hypothermia in less than two minutes is the issue I have with the misinformed comments in this and other threads that suggest people die of hypothermia in these short time frames. The focus should not be on getting out of the water as fast as possible, but to get out as safely as possible within five minutes or less, if possible.


I don't think we do know. ...... I jumped on what I perceive as a dangerous myth about people dying in cold water in under 2 minutes due to hypothermia.



In the end, I think this is really a we're sad at the loss of a "brother" and a warning that cold spring rivers and specifically the Kennebec River can be dangerous and often underestimated in their danger.

Everything else is pretty much drift.

Yar... I think I see it now. Turning into a Jordan Peterson/Sam Harris discussion.


There are three topics of discussion happening at once:
Fording rivers in general.
Cold water immersions.
Hypothermia.

Where our difficulty seems to lie is in discussing hypothermia. You are quite correct- nobody dies in 2 minutes from hypothermia.
I used to teach classes and find that this topic is one that has many myths and confusion around it. To be fair; it's also one of those 'weird ones' that few experts agree on.

"Hypothermia is reduced body temperature that happens when a body dissipates more heat than it absorbs." Seems a simple enough definition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia

The other common definition is that one's core body temp has fallen, the often used number being roughly 95*.
Again... depending on who you ask the original 'three stages' has expanded to up to five stages.
Regardless....

You're discussing severe hypothermia, which I tend to agree is not a serious issue of concern or cause for fear mongering. Paradoxical undressing and terminal burrowing are fun topics of discussion but rare.

'Lions, Tigers and Bears' was a talk title I once used... of all the false things folks fear in the woods, hypothermia is probably the most dangerous and least considered.

Mild hypothermia does not require a drop in core temperature. Most folks don't even recognize it as hypothermia and those with mild hypothermia can often still pass the 'fingertip test'.
Especially those of us who don't need to look up the fingertip test and practice doing it.

"Symptoms of mild hypothermia may be vague,[13] with sympathetic nervous system excitation (shivering, high blood pressure, fast heart rate, fast respiratory rate, and contraction of blood vessels). These are all physiological responses to preserve heat.[14] Increased urine production due to cold, mental confusion, and hepatic dysfunction may also be present"

From wikipedia again to keep it simple, but others include goose bumps and other incidental or banal items many would just consider 'being chilly'.

Also from that article- "Hypothermia continues to be a major limitation to swimming or diving in cold water.[18] The reduction in finger dexterity due to pain or numbness decreases general safety and work capacity, which consequently increases the risk of other injuries"

The main point of my talks was not severe hypothermia; but mild or moderate being the scarier danger in the woods.
Principally because it robs you, very quickly, of your most important tools. Your mental cohesion and fine motor dexterity.
Hypothermia is a silent spiral of problems, few of which are directly related to being cold.

Hypothermia is or it isn't... you are either producing enough heat to maintain your temps or you are not. Once it begins:
About 30 minutes is the number used when no water immersion is involved to go from mild to moderate hypothermia.

For the most part once you cross into moderate it is very hard to reverse the spiral. It is an odd condition and I still believe drinking alcohol is the best comparison.

We all like to state that the most important piece of gear you carry is in between your ears... there are only three things that can rob you of that critical tool: Death, Panic, and Hypothermia.
If you're dead... not much you can do to resolve that.
If you panic... I agree with your take that the only cure to panic is knowledge and control; which take some experience to implement. This is a general danger to those in the outdoors in everything from navigation, animal encounters or cold water immersion.

To me the greatest danger is hypothermia. Principally because 'being cold' is something that males especially are simply taught to 'deal with' and tough out.
You're crossing a stream in winter... no **** it will be cold. Get er done and get back to hiking and you'll walk yourself warm.
Generally many long distance hikers deal with hypothermia with that 'walk yourself warm' mentality. To be fair, it can actually work.

The problem occurs when the alarm bells don't go off in your head about what is actually happening.
When charging down the trail to warm up; navigational errors and mental errors increase.
Coupled with a slight shiver, loss of dexterity, motor function impairment and slowed reaction time... the odds of a fall increase.
That's the spiral, and the what if game turns into reality.

On a mountainous trail your walking warm trick may lead you up onto a ridgeline or other exposed spot, where even a mild breeze and damp clothing would spring you from mild to moderate hypothermia in minutes.


A fall on the right rock could break a bone, knock you out, or simply end your hike. You may not slip right into moderate hypothermia... but pain, injury, distress may further spiral things for you.

As I said in an earlier thread... one might not consider hypothermia the 'nail in the coffin' but in an otherwise healthy and capable outdoors person it is commonly a primary link in the chain of events that ends poorly.

A typical hypothermia bout is not fatal.
That hiker didn't fall too badly. The white blazes and clear tread-way shine brightly in the mental fog allowing one to stay the course. Or clears the ridge. Or stumbles to the next shelter chattering and shivering but jetboil or a fellow hiker come to the rescue.
Hypothermia is weird. It hits folks different at different times. Many of us get the opportunity to 'practice drinking' and find out if we are a lush, a lightweight, or have a tolerance like Andre the Giant... few get the chance to casually experiment with Hypothermia's effects until it is too late. While I didn't do it much at the boy scout talks, for older boys and adults I often went back to booze...
A little white wine may make you chatty, a little red wine may make you sleepy.
A beer might be just right, but one more is rarely refused.
A tequila may make you puke, and a whiskey may burn from your belly to your toes an' back to your nose.

A drink at the bar may let you approach someone.
A second may get you acquainted, and a third may get you intimately acquainted.
Be it three or four... none can say what quantity causes evening beauty to turn back to ugly come morn.

The moral of the hypothermia story is always simple... dumb things do happen.
But dumb things tend to happen with alarming frequency when hypothermia is involved.



As I mentioned earlier; When a drunk driver crashes into a tree. We all agree he died of driving into a tree, not of alcohol consumption.
Though we also agree that he and the tree were never likely to meet if'n it wasn't for the drinking.
One doesn't need 'severe alcohol consumption' to die, nor do many people die of true alcohol poisoning.
But many people do die of 'mild or moderate' alcohol consumption every day, though we don't think of it that way.

Just like booze, we all think we can handle it or we're fine...Specially us tough manly men outdoors folks.
But any sober person looking at you can tell it's just the booze talking and you got no business operating a vehicle.

Any level headed outdoors person could look at you and tell it's just the hypothermia talking and you're not in control of your vehicle.
Take it seriously. If you're solo, you got nobody to watch your back or take the keys away if your decision making has become impaired.

When you start to shiver... pull over, stop fer a hot coffee and sober up before you crash.

If that doesn't do it, get a hot meal in you and sleep it off.

[Just Bill]

How does everyone know he died from hypothermia?
I would have assumed he drowned from flooded rapids.
If it means anything to the family fer what it's worth....

'Suicide by Kennebec' is about the only invalid cause of death proposed.

Most likely a combination of factors all led to a bad conclusion. There is probably nothing to point to or blame on it's own.

Machismo, mental state, or just plain old 'guy syndrome' may have led to attempting the crossing to start.
-I am a month or so from 40 and still think of myself as 20 when I take on a physical task. Finding out halfway through something I could once do easily is a frequent occurrence... one i'd not like to have in the middle of a river.
-One could also consider a bit of the current trail mythos... that ALL it takes to reach maine is the willpower.
-Katahdin fever and making miles may have been part of the reason to push rather than chill for a few days until the ferry was up.

Poor knowledge of/or lack of a plan for a risky ford is a good start.
-Blowing up an air pad and removing your shoes.
-Inflating your trash compactor bag and tying your bear bag line to your pack so you can float it or dump it.
-Grabbing a solid 6' stave to plant upstream rather than using trekking poles.
-Planning on getting swept and being ready for it- basically figure you're going to swim and have a plan on how you'll do that.
-Scout the river downstream to see if there is a way out if all goes wrong; search for strainers or other obstacles that would turn floating until you could exit fatal.


Cold Water immersion.
-Could be fatal in and of itself at the wrong place and time.
-If facing up stream as you should be and swept off your feet... typically you're leaning into it and will fall face first... the shock could easily cause you to suck a breath of water.
-One simple way to reduce the chances of the reflex part is to immerse yourself in the shallows at the edge of the river to get it over with.
-The river itself is a chest deep ford in summer... in swollen spring it would have been a swim period. Hard to say if that was known, considered, or not.
-Even if it was a ford and not a swim... it's a long enough crossing that cold water immersion exposure would have been well beyond a few minutes. This is a bit more than simply tumbling into and quickly bailing out of cold water.

Hypothermia.
-It was likely cold enough out that it was possible just from hiking.
-Simply stepping knee deep into water that cold would have instantly started the hypothermia process.
-The loss of dexterity in the feet could have caused lost footing.
-The loss of mental function could have effected or overrode the instinct to abort the crossing.
-The longer the crossing went on, the deeper hypothermia would have set in. Escalating from mild to moderate hypothermia in waist deep cold water cold happen very quickly, and fording a tough river if all goes right can easily take 10-30 minutes of careful, slow movement. A hot drink or meal before beginning might have helped some.

The gentleman could have done everything right in terms of crossing precautions or cold water immersion and still 'lost' the battle with hypothermia.
Could have been a big, tough, strong person with experience, awareness and self control. He may have planted a solid up stream pole, toed the river bed, floated his pack and properly inched his way across while maintaining his tripod connection to the riverbed. With blood and adrenaline pumping he may been doing everything right... but simply run out of time.
Grip on the staff, dexterity in the toes to find good footing, slow reaction to a pulse in the current, might have pushed him over.
Lethargy, apathy, confusion or disconnection may have led to not fighting much to reach a shore once he went over.


He could have tried like hell, done everything right and simply succumbed to the fact that a swollen river flows right by your willpower and Ma' Nature has zero f's to give.

The technicalities are not that important. The most important lesson is when to say no.


Sometimes you just picked a fight with the wrong Mother F'er and lost.


"Why... Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody just walked over your grave."
"My fights not with you Holiday"
"I beg to differ sir, we started a game we never got to finish... Play fer blood, remember?"
"...I was just fooling about."

"I wasn't."

Tombstone

[full conditions]

It might be worth mentioning one other serious objective hazard associated with fording fast moving streams, and that is foot entrapment. As a former 20+ year raft guide on Southeastern rivers, foot entrapment was easily the #1 cause of drowning on the rivers I was associated with (boat pinning being a close second). In gravel bottomed streams this is much less of a risk than ledge bottomed streams and if I recall correctly, the Kennebec is kinda' a combination of the two. Our general rule of thumb was any fast moving water knee deep or deeper should not be forded.

[Nikkicam]

One of an officer’s LEGAL DUTIES is to prevent individuals from harming themselves or others. That is literally the very definition of the job. I know this VERY WELL since my father was a police officer, and I am an attorney. If the officer in question was still grieving and not yet fit for duty, not ready to DO HIS JOB, he shouldn’t have been on patrol. But that’s so much for your “empathy” toward our veterans and the issue of mental illness.

[Nikkicam]

It would be ironic if the police officer was still mourning the death of Deputy Cole and decided not to confront a crazy person he didn't know. If someone is determined to kill themselves by doing something a normal thinking person wouldn't do, why would the responsibility lie with anyone other than the person making irrational decisions?

Your brother was a free person, able to make his own decisions. We don't live in a police state up here in Maine. People are allowed to.make mistakes and pay for them. The onus is not on anyone other than himself.

I'm sorry your brother came back from the war a changed person. That happens. It's one of the hortors and evils of war.

One of an officer’s LEGAL DUTIES is to prevent individuals from harming themselves or others. That is literally the very definition of the job. I know this VERY WELL since my father was a police officer, and I am an attorney. If the officer in question was still grieving and not yet fit for duty, not ready to DO HIS JOB, he shouldn’t have been on patrol. But thanks SO much for your “empathy” toward our family, veterans and the issue of mental illness.

[cmoulder]

One of an officer’s LEGAL DUTIES is to prevent individuals from harming themselves or others. That is literally the very definition of the job. I know this VERY WELL since my father was a police officer, and I am an attorney. If the officer in question was still grieving and not yet fit for duty, not ready to DO HIS JOB, he shouldn’t have been on patrol. But thanks SO much for your “empathy” toward our family, veterans and the issue of mental illness.
Condolences for the loss of your brother, but your father being a police officer and your being an attorney have no bearing on this.

Neither you nor anyone else is completely aware of the totality of the circumstances. It could be as simple as the officer advising your brother not to ford the Kennebec and your brother giving his assurances that he wouldn't, only to do so after the officer left. And how was the officer to know he was dealing with someone with mental issues from one very brief encounter?

Continuing to focus your anger on someone who probably did exactly what any of the rest of us would have done in the same circumstance is not productive.

And perhaps consider that you are causing anguish for someone who did nothing wrong.

[SWODaddy]

Police have no legal duty to protect you, or prevent you from harming yourself. In fact, police officers have liability in some instances when intervening against a person when they're not breaking a law.

This man was walking the wilderness with (untreated/undertreated) dementia and paranoid schizophrenia - and people are blaming the cop? A man without the facilities to obey countless warning signs and orders from a law enforcement officer, or the wherewithal to circumvent those dangers, has no business out there.

[LazyLightning]

condolences to your family but you say "anybody would have known he had a mental illness" but I think its important to understand that many hikers may look/act nothing like what anybody would consider to be 'normal' ….. so even if most people would have thought it was a mental issue, if the police officer is familiar with hikers then the attitude/actions might not have seemed different then many other hikers he has encountered and very likely the police officer did not see a mental issue at hand.

Also there was talk about how hypothermia wont set in submerged in water in 5-10 minutes..... the guy operating the ferry this September told me about the incident and said "that's a 5-10 minute swim if your a good swimmer"... so we aren't talking about a 2-3 minute crossing here either. He also pointed to the bank and said "the water was up to the trees", which is 10-15 feet higher then when I was there. He also added "the water was about 42 degrees"

[Old Hillwalker]

There is something that I have been curious about since the first posting of this thread. He must have been a southbounder to have run into a LEO before attempting to cross the river since there are no roads where that could have happened for a couple of days on the western side of the river. I know that Google Earth seems to show roads on the western side, but they are old logging roads, many of which are impassable so that LEOs wouldn't be traveling there. If he was northbound I seriously doubt that the LEO contact spoken of in the news happened. And, yes I have been there on both sides of the river.

[Christoph]

One more reason to put a suspension bridge across or relocate the trial to a safer spot, I reckon. Some people will not adhere to warnings no matter how much you tell them, whether sick or not. Some are lucky to get across, some are not. Sorry for your loss, but to blame the officer is asinine.

[Dogwood]

Yar... I think I see it now. Turning into a Jordan Peterson/Sam Harris discussion.


There are three topics of discussion happening at once:
Fording rivers in general.
Cold water immersions.
Hypothermia.


That was the most applicable thread discussion analogy ever.

What we need is Ben Shapiro to keep it on topic.

I thought we were discussing drowning rather than simply fording?