Harvey Lewis - 2018 AT Supported FKT Attempt

[OwenRunning]

Harvey Lewis, accomplished ultra marathon runner, set off today on his attempt to break the record for the fastest AT completion. Based on his Facebook athlete page he departed on May 30 from Springer Mountain. He has a tracking site through a sponsor, RoadID.

Harvey Lewis' Facebook Page
(https://www.facebook.com/harveylewisultrarunner/)
Where's Harvey RoadID Tracking Page (https://www.roadid.com/pages/wheresharvey)

Harvey lives and trains in Cincinnati, Ohio and is known for his frequent racing and streak running. His biggest accomplishments include winning the infamous BAdwater 135 twice.

This should be interesting to follow - what does everyone think?

[Slo-go'en]

Good luck. Many have tried, most have failed in short order.

[Rain Man]

If he's "supported" or "sponsored" and marketed (advertisement) by a for-profit corporation for racing on the AT, does that make it a commercial venture? If so, does he have to have a special permit to use this National Park for profit?

I don't know the rules about such things.

[The Old Chief]

Don't know much about these speed hikes but this is a "supported" attempt, correct? Here are my questions. Since the AT is longer this year by at least a mile will the first speed hiker to finish the trail, regardless of time, hold the new record for the new distance of the AT? Can it be called a "world" record when you can't do it anywhere in the world but the AT?

[Crushed Grapes]

Not really my bag, but good luck to him. Hike your own...run? :D

[stumpknocker]

Seems like a good guy. Pretty cool that his dad gets to be involved.
Amazing athletes that can do something like this.
Good luck to you Harvey!

Going to have to follow his progress whenever I get a chance on the RoadID site.

[OwenRunning]

If he's "supported" or "sponsored" and marketed (advertisement) by a for-profit corporation for racing on the AT, does that make it a commercial venture? If so, does he have to have a special permit to use this National Park for profit?

I don't know the rules about such things.

He is not racing on the Appalachian Trail.

[Slo-go'en]

He is not racing on the Appalachian Trail.

Now that would be interesting. Have two people start at the same time and race towards the summit! Maybe we can have teams :-?

[stumpknocker]

Hope he gets some good sleep.
I just checked his RoadID and it looks like he is well on his way with 53.1 miles done on his first day.
He should be done with Georgia around noon on day 2.

Again...amazing athlete!!

[Feral Bill]

Now that would be interesting. Have two people start at the same time and race towards the summit! Maybe we can have teams :-? Oh please no!

[OwenRunning]

On behalf of all trail runners, please know that none of us want there to be a “race” on the Appalachian Trail. I feel like we go through his every time there is an FKT attempt and that some hikers on this forum perpetualize this notion of racing even though no one wants it to happen.

[TJ aka Teej]

No commercial events allowed in Baxter. He'll have to stop at the Abol Stream footbridge.

[ScottS]

On behalf of all trail runners, please know that none of us want there to be a “race” on the Appalachian Trail. I feel like we go through his every time there is an FKT attempt and that some hikers on this forum perpetualize this notion of racing even though no one wants it to happen.

I'd do a race.

[cmoulder]

On behalf of all trail runners, please know that none of us want there to be a “race” on the Appalachian Trail. I feel like we go through his every time there is an FKT attempt and that some hikers on this forum perpetualize this notion of racing even though no one wants it to happen.
It's 'vapors season', doncha know? Time for people to declare their thru was ruined by some guy running past them in SNP. :o

[Crushed Grapes]

Road ID is showing him almost at the NC border. So like 76 miles in a day and a half?

[OwenRunning]

This seems to be a yearly thing now (3 straight years) of people breaking the AT FKT. I was tuned in daily for the Jurek attempt but haven’t been on the forum over the past two years with Meltzer and Stringbean but thought I’d hop on here since I know Harvey personally, though only briefly spoke with him about his AT attempt.

What was the overall tone of WhiteBlazes opinions about Meltzer vs Stringbean over the past two years?

[cmoulder]

About the same.

I'm a bit surprised anyone is doing it this year after Stringbean crushed it unsupported.

[OwenRunning]

It appears Harvey has ended day #2 at Standing Indian Campground, the same location Scott Jurek ended his day 2 in 2015.

[JC13]

This seems to be a yearly thing now (3 straight years) of people breaking the AT FKT. I was tuned in daily for the Jurek attempt but haven’t been on the forum over the past two years with Meltzer and Stringbean but thought I’d hop on here since I know Harvey personally, though only briefly spoke with him about his AT attempt.

What was the overall tone of WhiteBlazes opinions about Meltzer vs Stringbean over the past two years?Mixed just like you have seen so far. People who forget that this part of the forum is specifically to discuss speed and record attempts who fuss about racing and not seeing things on trail. Then you have a group who sit back and watch with snack of choice, hoping that the person either succeeds or at least gets to put in a good attempt and not crash in a blaze of bad luck.

[cmoulder]

Mixed just like you have seen so far. People who forget that this part of the forum is specifically to discuss speed and record attempts who fuss about racing and not seeing things on trail. Then you have a group who sit back and watch with snack of choice, hoping that the person either succeeds or at least gets to put in a good attempt and not crash in a blaze of bad luck.
Yes, the "you're enjoying the outdoors incorrectly!" people. :rolleyes:

[nsherry61]

Yes, the "you're enjoying the outdoors incorrectly!" people. :rolleyes:

Well said, I suspect that nearly everyone IS NOT enjoying the outdoor correctly as they type replies to these threads.

Actually, I suspect there are a few that are replying while sitting outside. I wonder how many?

[stumpknocker]

Yes, the "you're enjoying the outdoors incorrectly!" people. :rolleyes:

That's beautiful! The best phrase I've ever seen on WhiteBlaze!

[stumpknocker]

Harvey is north of Franklin, NC. I really hope he does well. I am always amazed when I think of what he is doing...and has to do every day until he reaches Katahdin.

[cmoulder]

I did not coin it, but I think it is the most succinct description ever.

[OwenRunning]

FKT attempts are always an unknown for a runner. As accomplished and “gutsy” someone might be there will be a moment that they are tested more than they ever have been, unless they’ve done this before of course.

Harvey is doing well through 2.5 days but there are still 6 more weeks of this. I’m excited to follow, and the longer he is “on track” the more exciting it will be. We will be able to start comparing to past attempts and so forth.

Where are the data excel experts? Hope you are on hold to break out the comparison charts, though now it’s too early to tell.


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[fiddlehead]

2 days of over 50 mpd.
And now a 34.
Maybe he resupplied ?

[OwenRunning]

2 days of over 50 mpd.
And now a 34.
Maybe he resupplied ?

Where do you see this? The day is still young. There should be no need to resupply.


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[fiddlehead]

He seems to have stalled around NOC (Wesser)
I get it from here: https://www.roadid.com/pages/wheresharvey
Looks like first 2 days of over 50, next 2 days of 30 or less.
If the tracking is accurate, I'd have to say this attempt may be over already.

[OwenRunning]

He seems to have stalled around NOC (Wesser)
I get it from here: https://www.roadid.com/pages/wheresharvey
Looks like first 2 days of over 50, next 2 days of 30 or less.
If the tracking is accurate, I'd have to say this attempt may be over already.

He has only done 3 days.


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[fiddlehead]

Oh sorry.
I thought he did 4.
First 2: over 50 per day.
THen it said 137 after 3 and then I thought it was 167 after 4.
I'm watching from Asia and our day is over already here.
If he's at 167 after only 3, then he's doing great.

[OwenRunning]

Oh sorry.
I thought he did 4.
First 2: over 50 per day.
THen it said 137 after 3 and then I thought it was 167 after 4.
I'm watching from Asia and our day is over already here.
If he's at 167 after only 3, then he's doing great.

At the end of day three he was 149.6 miles in based on his tracker. I think he stopped at Fontana Dam. According to my data book from when I “tracked” Jurek in 2015 he was 156 miles in after day three big in unsure that’s accurate because I don’t remember Jurek sleeping on the trail at this point. At 10am local Harvey looks to be 16 miles in already (Saturday 6/2, day 4)


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[D2maine]

No commercial events allowed in Baxter. He'll have to stop at the Abol Stream footbridge.

that is silly


Lets just hope harvey lewis learned what to do and what not to do from the damage done to the hiking community in Baxter by Jurek(and others)...if we hope to keep Baxter Park Authority from imposing even more restrictions on long distance hikers. It would really suck for long distance hikers if they lost their current special permits and had to follow the same rules for access to the park as everybody else.

[Violent Green]

It's early so who knows where this one will go. Either way, if he's won Badwater twice then he knows what it's like to suffer and push through it. That can only help.

[ScottS]

OwenRunning = Michael?

It's kinda funny now how you can't say "He's not even on selfsupported pace." when talking about supported runs.

[George]

that is silly


Lets just hope harvey lewis learned what to do and what not to do from the damage done to the hiking community in Baxter by Jurek(and others)...if we hope to keep Baxter Park Authority from imposing even more restrictions on long distance hikers. It would really suck for long distance hikers if they lost their current special permits and had to follow the same rules for access to the park as everybody else.

not silly, it is pushback for irresponsible sponsors such as should be blamed for the Jurek BS - they are what makes it "commercial" - no problem IMO if the rules are enforced / they are excluded

without repercussions there is no reason for sponsors to follow the rules - is a 500$ fine for cliff bars a meaningful deterrent? not at all - is stopping a sponsored runner from entering the park a deterrent so the stunt that they sponsored can not be completed? - certainly

[OwenRunning]

not silly, it is pushback for irresponsible sponsors such as should be blamed for the Jurek BS - they are what makes it "commercial" - no problem IMO if the rules are enforced / they are excluded

without repercussions there is no reason for sponsors to follow the rules - is a 500$ fine for cliff bars a meaningful deterrent? not at all - is stopping a sponsored runner from entering the park a deterrent so the stunt that they sponsored can not be completed? - certainly

I don’t think many others will have quite the fanfare as Jurek. Jurek was a global icon in the sport prior to his attempt to he had quite the following.


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[George]

People who forget that this part of the forum is specifically to discuss speed and record attempts who fuss about racing and not seeing things on trail. .

"discussion" involves pros and cons - sounds like you feel opinions that you do not agree with should be excluded

[ScottS]

Going somewhere where people congregate over a specific subject just to tell them you don't like what they're talking about isn't constructive. You can nitpick the semantics of a "discussion" but anyone who pointlessly instigates is not contributing to anything meaningful.
When he says it's mixed reviews, he's referring to the type of people who go to a running forum and say they don't like people running.

[cmoulder]

Well if he makes it as far as Abol he'll be a "day hiker," and if there isn't a 20-person greeting committee with champagne and a TV crew helicoptered in for the event, I'm guessing things will go fine.

[Malto]

It's 'vapors season', doncha know? Time for people to declare their thru was ruined by some guy running past them in SNP. :o
Yeah, running at a blazing 4mph. The wind almost knocked me down.

[John B]

"discussion" involves pros and cons - sounds like you feel opinions that you do not agree with should be excluded

This is the "Sticky" for this forum. Perhaps you missed it:


This forum is for the discussion of trail running, speed and/or long hiking days, and related activities.

A forum for the discussion and celebration of those who enjoy being out all day and the physical challenges that the trails can offer.

There are many ways to enjoy the outdoors. Lower mileage and more camping or town time is the traditional way. Many of us prefer to simply be out all day and do minimal camping and less town time.

While healthy debate can be constructive, this forum is not for the purpose of debating the merits of long or fast travel on the trails.

If you do not prefer to hike all day or run the trails...that's cool. A person can say why they prefer one form of enjoying the outdoors without disparaging another form. A person may prefer chocolate ice cream to vanilla ice cream. That does not mean vanilla ice cream sucks. https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Those who insist their way is the one, true, correct and absolute way to enjoy the outdoors many want to read this document. (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/Outdoor-Writings/hike-my-hike-damn-it.html) https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Happy Trails..no matter how you enjoy them!

Paul Mags (moderators)

[cmoulder]

He has certainly endured a heap of super-crappy weather.

RoadID page shows 238.4mi total and 39.73mi/day avg. He'll need some sustained very nice weather to begin moving the needle in the other direction.

[OwenRunning]

He has certainly endured a heap of super-crappy weather.

RoadID page shows 238.4mi total and 39.73mi/day avg. He'll need some sustained very nice weather to begin moving the needle in the other direction.

Make sure you read that mileage total and average correctly. At the END of day five, last night, he was at 237 miles, for an average of 47.4 miles per day. What you are seeing with the 39.73 average is including his 6th day, which has just begun. At the time of writing this he is at 254 miles, so he has ran 17 miles on his 6th day, and his per day average will only be a true reflection when he finishes his day.


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[OwenRunning]

This is the "Sticky" for this forum. Perhaps you missed it:


This forum is for the discussion of trail running, speed and/or long hiking days, and related activities.

A forum for the discussion and celebration of those who enjoy being out all day and the physical challenges that the trails can offer.

There are many ways to enjoy the outdoors. Lower mileage and more camping or town time is the traditional way. Many of us prefer to simply be out all day and do minimal camping and less town time.

While healthy debate can be constructive, this forum is not for the purpose of debating the merits of long or fast travel on the trails.

If you do not prefer to hike all day or run the trails...that's cool. A person can say why they prefer one form of enjoying the outdoors without disparaging another form. A person may prefer chocolate ice cream to vanilla ice cream. That does not mean vanilla ice cream sucks. https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Those who insist their way is the one, true, correct and absolute way to enjoy the outdoors many want to read this document. (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/Outdoor-Writings/hike-my-hike-damn-it.html) https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Happy Trails..no matter how you enjoy them!

Paul Mags (moderators)

Thank you for the reminder. We all use trails with different intents. I prefer to run because that’s what I do. That does not mean I view hikers disparagingly. The vice versa should be true as well. I get very upset when someone accuses me and runners that we aren’t enjoying nature. I enjoy nature and revel in the peaceful solitude as much as anyone. My heart rate may be a bit higher, and I may be going a bit fast at some points, but I can still take in all aspects of the trail. It’s a big part of the reason I started running trails. For anyone to take on trail running, especially at the degree of the AT, they have to have that sense of enjoyment for the trail and outdoors. Otherwise they would stick to the roads.

When it comes down to it hiking and running really isn’t that much different, especially in a long distance run. I’ve heard hikers argue about being upset when being passed by runners. I’d venture to say hikers pass hikers as well, since there are different levels of fitness within hikers. Any other argue “against running” can be addressed as well but what it comes down to is the lack of open mindedness and realizing there are different ways of doing things. Obviously we all would agree ATV’s and other modes of travel should not be allowed on the AT, but running? Running is virtually the same as hiking.


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[cmoulder]

I got that directly off the Road I.D. page this morning around 6am EDT.

Here is a screenshot from less than 5 minutes ago:

42822

I checked FB this morning and didn't see further updates. I signed up for the Road ID updates but have gotten no email pings. But thanks for the explanation as to how they're counting the mileage... I assumed they waited until the day's run had ended to calculate.

[OwenRunning]

I got that directly off the Road I.D. page this morning around 6am EDT.

Here is a screenshot from less than 5 minutes ago:

42822

I checked FB this morning and didn't see further updates. I signed up for the Road ID updates but have gotten no email pings.

Yeah I bet he started his day before 6am. The average restarts after midnight so the average isn’t a true reflection at that point.


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[cmoulder]

Good to hear he's progressing nicely, all things considered.

He and the few other rare individuals who can do this are truly amazing. If I somehow forced myself to cover this kind of mileage for one day I'd be dead or at least in the hospital.

[jdx1177]

I'm late to the party. But I'm in. I look forward to following along.

[John B]

... We all use trails with different intents. I prefer to run because that’s what I do. That does not mean I view hikers disparagingly. ...
When it comes down to it hiking and running really isn’t that much different, especially in a long distance run. ...
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I'm in the same camp, so to speak -- I prefer distance running on trails more than hiking, and when I hike, I prefer to do as many miles as possible per day to the extent that if it's a gradual descending slope, I don't mind a bit breaking into a slow run while carrying my pack. That said, if others prefer to hike at a much, much slower pace and spend more time in camp, that's great too and I hope they enjoy every second of it.

On a totally different matter, Road ID is a local company based in northern Kentucky. They make great products. Over the years, I've bought 3 wrist Road IDs and one dog tag ID. None of them broke or wore out, I just bought that many 'cause my information changed.

[Odd Man Out]

FYI. I am not sure if my spreadsheet with mileage data is up to date, but it is close.



Location

Day

Total Miles

Day Miles

MPD



Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus

0

0

0

0



Unicoi Gap/GA Hwy 75

1

52.3

52.3

52.3



Rock Gap Shelter/USFS Rd 67

2

105.4

53.1

52.7



Stecoah Gap/NC Hwy 143

3

150.3

44.9

50.1



Clingmans Dome Tower

4

199.6

49.3

49.9



Davenport Gap/NC Hwy 32

5

238.7

39.1

47.7

[Odd Man Out]

I found the daily records for Stringbean's run on FKT. So I updated the spreadsheet to track Harvey vs Stringbean's paces.




Harvey



StringBean






Day
Location
Total Miles
Day Miles
MPD
Location
Total Miles
Day Miles
MPD
Ahead of Pace


0
Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus
0.0


Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus
0.0





1
Unicoi Gap/GA Hwy 75
52.3
52.3
52.3
Low Gap Shelter
42.6
42.6
42.6
9.7


2
Rock Gap Shelter/USFS Rd 67
105.4
53.1
52.7
Standing Indian Shelter
85.7
43.1
42.9
19.7


3
Stecoah Gap/NC Hwy 143
150.3
44.9
50.1
Nantahala, NC/US Hwy 19/74
136.5
50.8
45.5
13.8


4
Clingmans Dome Tower
199.6
49.3
49.9
Spence Field Shelter/Eagle Creek Trail
183.3
46.8
45.8
16.3


5
Davenport Gap/NC Hwy 32
238.7
39.1
47.7
Cosby Knob Shelter
230.7
47.4
46.1
8.0


6
Log Cabin Rd
290.8
52.1
48.5
Hot Springs, NC/NC Hwy 209
274.3
43.6
45.7
16.5

[OwenRunning]

I found the daily records for Stringbean's run on FKT. So I updated the spreadsheet to track Harvey vs Stringbean's paces.




Harvey



StringBean






Day
Location
Total Miles
Day Miles
MPD
Location
Total Miles
Day Miles
MPD
Ahead of Pace


0
Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus
0.0


Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus
0.0





1
Unicoi Gap/GA Hwy 75
52.3
52.3
52.3
Low Gap Shelter
42.6
42.6
42.6
9.7


2
Rock Gap Shelter/USFS Rd 67
105.4
53.1
52.7
Standing Indian Shelter
85.7
43.1
42.9
19.7


3
Stecoah Gap/NC Hwy 143
150.3
44.9
50.1
Nantahala, NC/US Hwy 19/74
136.5
50.8
45.5
13.8


4
Clingmans Dome Tower
199.6
49.3
49.9
Spence Field Shelter/Eagle Creek Trail
183.3
46.8
45.8
16.3


5
Davenport Gap/NC Hwy 32
238.7
39.1
47.7
Cosby Knob Shelter
230.7
47.4
46.1
8.0


6
Log Cabin Rd
290.8
52.1
48.5
Hot Springs, NC/NC Hwy 209
274.3
43.6
45.7
16.5



Great data. I had never seen Stringbean’s numbers. Where did you find them?

I have Jurek’s written down somewhere and I’m pretty sure he’d be ahead of where Harvey is currently. So Stringbean busy have crushed the second half.


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[OwenRunning]

Looks like Harvey settled in for day 7 at Highway 19W / Spivey Mountain Road.


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[Odd Man Out]

Great data. I had never seen Stringbean’s numbers. Where did you find them?

I have Jurek’s written down somewhere and I’m pretty sure he’d be ahead of where Harvey is currently. So Stringbean busy have crushed the second half.

He posted a link to them on a FKT Forum post.

http://fastestknowntime.proboards.com/post/5426/thread

[chknfngrs]

Cool to track once more.

[Chair-man]

No commercial events allowed in Baxter. He'll have to stop at the Abol Stream footbridge.

I doubt it. Simply having sponsors support a hike shouldn't prevent someone from ascending Katahdin. Could you show which rule you're referring to that he would be breaking? https://baxterstatepark.org/rules-and-permits/


Anyway, good luck to Harvey and glad to see the live tracking.

[OwenRunning]

Am I seeing that Harvey moved about 59 miles today? His tracker has updated within the past half hour and it’s midnight. Looks like he’s almost to HWY19E/Rt. 37.


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[Odd Man Out]

Am I seeing that Harvey moved about 59 miles today? His tracker has updated within the past half hour and it’s midnight. Looks like he’s almost to HWY19E/Rt. 37.

He started yesterday early at Spivey Gap/US 19W (5:30 AM) and got to US 19E at 11:00 PM. That is 62 miles in 17.5 hrs, which is 3.5 mph. Maybe he was making up for a bad day on Tuesday, when he only covered 42 miles. Were there weather problems down there on Tuesday?

[LittleRock]

Holy cow! The fact that he's able to track his progress and post it in real-time like that is almost as amazing as his crazy fast progress. I hope my wife never finds out about this technology...

[trippclark]

Spotted Harvey today at 2:00 at Dennis Cove Road. Appeared in good spirits.

[Odd Man Out]

Spent the night at Iron Mtn Shelter. I think his first night that wasn't at a trail head. 49.2 mile yesterday.

[JC13]

"discussion" involves pros and cons - sounds like you feel opinions that you do not agree with should be excludedIf that were the case, I am well acquainted with the "ignore" function. As was stated while I was on vacation, this sub-section has a regular influx of "haters" every time someone attempts an FKT.

[ScottS]

Really frustrating that his tracking site doesn't say what day he's on.
And very interesting that his mileage is getting compared more to Joe than Scott.

[Odd Man Out]

He started on May 30 (about 6 AM) so 6 AM on Sunday June 10th will be the end of day 11 (beginning of day 12). His last tracking location for day 11 is Partnership shelter which only gave him 39.2 miles for the day. This is the same place Stringbean was at on day 11 so he lost all of his lead he had. Didn't look like there was a weather problem in SE VA today.

[ScottS]

The rain should be hitting there about now or maybe yesterday. I was in Shenandoah through Friday and that's what people were saying.

[TravisRex]

I'm part of the team working on planning and logistics effort for Harvey's journey and have enjoyed reading the conversation thus far. As of today (6/10), Harvey is 5.7 miles ahead of where Joe spent the night at the end of day 12. The rough patch on day 11 (he spent the night at VA 16 - 533.7 miles) was a combination of non-weather related factors, but after some additional rest, day 12 was a 50.6 mile day (VA 615 - 584.3).

I'm happy to answer questions but please note that I'm speaking only for myself..

[Odd Man Out]

I've been charting his progress. My spreadsheet is set up to compare progress to Stringbean. Any thought as to what the best benchmark is?

[TravisRex]

We looked at data from the four previous record holders - Jen Pharr-Davis, Jurek, Meltzer, and Stringbean. We're keeping an eye on the progress against all four, though obviously Stringbean is the priority. As Harvey noted in his initial post on FastestKnownTime.com, we're monitoring the records for overall, fastest supported, and fastest NOBO in descending order. One of the nice things about having two records from SOBO and two records from NOBO is that it allows us to see what days are tough days regardless of which direction you're going and how fresh you are. Deep mud sucks (literally) no matter when or how you run into it.

In additional to the daily and overall comparisons, we're also looking at a 3 day rolling comparison (so how did Stringbean do on days 13, 14, and 15 for instance) to try to balance out the impact of a single good/bad day.

This early on, we're not feeding Harvey much information about how where he is in relation to Stringbean, but once the days start to creep up into the mid-20s, I expect we'll switch over to more of a "Stringbean did xx miles, so you need to do xx miles or even better xx+1 miles" type of situation.

[TravisRex]

Here's the current progress against Stringbean and Jurek. The "3 day average" column refers to Stringbean's average for that day, and the next two days.

42858

[ScottS]

we're monitoring the records for...fastest NOBO

Is this a detail people are going to start caring about now that more pure runners are coming into FKTs?
Were Joe and Joey not racing for the same thing anymore?

I blame Comrades.

[TravisRex]

We are tracking it because that's the way the times are listed on fastestknowntime.com. The primary focus is the overall FKT. No one on the team wants to see additional modifiers (here's the FKT that started on a Monday, here's the FKT for people whose name starts with the letter B). But since we're tracking against one thing already there's little added effort to track against two or three other benchmarks.

[jdx1177]

Awesome, thanks for the updates

[KCNC]

Looks like a bit of a shortcut, or a detour, or an anomaly, or a glitch, or....

42875

[illabelle]

Looks like a bit of a shortcut, or a detour, or an anomaly, or a glitch, or....

42875

Wasn't there a reroute just north of Pearisburg?

[LittleRock]

Yes, the trail on the map is from before the reroute. Harvey went the right way.

[TravisRex]

We were using an older mapping file from the ATC that included the "old" route. We were able to obtain a new "AT Line" file from the National Park Service GIS server and were able to apply the changes which should soon be reflected on the RoadiD tracking site. Using the "test" version of the tracking site, we confirmed that his travel matches the route.
42876

[ScottS]

We are tracking it because that's the way the times are listed on fastestknowntime.com. The primary focus is the overall FKT. No one on the team wants to see additional modifiers (here's the FKT that started on a Monday, here's the FKT for people whose name starts with the letter B). But since we're tracking against one thing already there's little added effort to track against two or three other benchmarks.

It's always been qualified which direction someone went but was more of a "so you know" than an official distinction. Interesting that they've now separated the times.
I hope I don't come across like I'm picking on you at all. The last couple years have just seen a lot of people new to FKTs who don't seem to really understand or want to. It hurts every time I hear "unsupported AT record."
And I can already see people saying how Joe doesn't have his record any more were Harvey to beat his time.
It hurts.

[Odd Man Out]

He seems to have had another bad day yesterday. Now about 17 miles behind Stringbean.




Harvey


StringBean





Day
Start Location
Total Miles
Day Miles
Location
Total Miles
Day Miles
Ahead of Pace


0
Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus
0.0

Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus
0.0




1
Unicoi Gap/GA Hwy 75
52.3
52.3
Low Gap Shelter
42.6
42.6
9.7


2
Rock Gap Shelter/USFS Rd 67
105.4
53.1
Standing Indian Shelter
85.7
43.1
19.7


3
Stecoah Gap/NC Hwy 143
150.3
44.9
Nantahala, NC/US Hwy 19/74
136.5
50.8
13.8


4
Clingmans Dome Tower
199.6
49.3
Spence Field Shelter/Eagle Creek Trail
183.3
46.8
16.3


5
Davenport Gap/NC Hwy 32
238.7
39.1
Cosby Knob Shelter
230.7
47.4
8.0


6
Log Cabin Rd
290.8
52.1
Hot Springs, NC/NC Hwy 209
274.3
43.6
16.5


7
Spivey Gap/US Hwy 19W
332.8
42.0
Bald Mtn Shelter
327.0
52.7
5.8


8
Roan Mountain, TN/US Hwy 19E
394.8
62.0
Roan High Knob Shelter
378.5
51.5
16.3


9
Iron Mtn Shelter
444.0
49.2
Watauga Lake Shelter
430.0
51.5
14.0


10
Elk Garden/VA Rd 600
494.3
50.3
Saunders Shelter
479.6
49.6
14.7


11
Partnership Shelter/VA Hwy 16
533.5
39.2
Partnership Shelter/VA Hwy 16
533.5
53.9
0.0


12
Laurel Creek/VA Rd 615
584.3
50.8
Jenkins Shelter/Hunting Camp Creek
579.9
46.4
4.4


13
Pearisburg, VA/VA Hwy 100
636.5
52.2
Cross Ave/VA Rd 793
635.5
55.6
1.0


14
Rocky Gap/VA Rd 601
671.3
34.8
Craig Creek/VA Rd 621
688.3
52.8
-17.0

[Violent Green]

If he follows the same pattern as Jurek(nobo), he will have some stellar days followed by some very average says down south, kill it in the Mid-Atlantic, and then try to eek it out up north. So, as long as he can come out of the South healthy and somewhat near pace, it will still be on.

[Odd Man Out]

But he had another low mile day yesterday. He's now about 20 miles behind Stringbean's pace.

[jdx1177]

Just some speculation and I wish nothing but good vibes on Harvey..... But if he's falling behind while being supported in the south where IIRC string bean wasn't at his best, what's he gonna do up north where string Bean absolutely killed it. IMO if he wants this he's got to build a lead now not just barely be hanging on.

[TravisRex]

It's always been qualified which direction someone went but was more of a "so you know" than an official distinction. Interesting that they've now separated the times.
I hope I don't come across like I'm picking on you at all. The last couple years have just seen a lot of people new to FKTs who don't seem to really understand or want to. It hurts every time I hear "unsupported AT record."
And I can already see people saying how Joe doesn't have his record any more were Harvey to beat his time.
It hurts.

I completely understand where you're coming from - and I completely agree with you. One of the other team members who manages the Harvey Lewis Ultra Runner Facebook page accidentally posted that Harvey was going after the "unsupported record." As Harvey has moved further along, the incredibleness (that's a word, right?) of what Joe did is becoming more and more apparent. And regardless of how Harvey finishes, Joe's unsupported AT record will remain (my guess would be for quite some time).

We're planning on making a post on the Facebook page that calls attention to the fact that Stringbean didn't have a van driving him to hotels, or someone cooking his dinner or doing his laundry. What Joe did is amazing, and we'll be doing what we can from our side to make sure that Joe gets the recognition that he deserves (regardless of when/if Harvey makes it to Maine).

[TravisRex]

Just some speculation and I wish nothing but good vibes on Harvey..... But if he's falling behind while being supported in the south where IIRC string bean wasn't at his best, what's he gonna do up north where string Bean absolutely killed it. IMO if he wants this he's got to build a lead now not just barely be hanging on.

Harvey's currently suffering through some tendinitis and luckily had both a nurse practitioner and a doctor on the crew yesterday. Additionally, a PT that he's worked with in the past is arriving Friday so the team is hopeful that some lower mileage days and some extra medical care can hopefully make the pain more manageable.

Personally, the thought of being "tied" with Stringbean heading into the last week scares me quite a bit when I look at the numbers. Assuming that Harvey is able to bounce back, we're planning on trying to eek out as much of a lead as possible. Joe's average miles over the next 10 days works out to 49.54, which isn't going to make things easy.

Yesterday's low number - 38.1 miles to VA 311, 709.4 - potentially would have happened regardless of how Harvey was feeling with the next road crossing not until 729.2 which would have been a 58 mile day. As we look ahead over the next couple of days, there are a few more options within the target range that will provide some good stops for getting an average up north of 50 miles per day. Assuming his leg cooperates. If it doesn't.....

[Odd Man Out]

Stringbean had some low mile dsys through this stretch, so it's would be a place to get caught up or ahead of the pace.

[Slo-go'en]

Harvey is about to get into the more difficult part of Virginia where there are a several big, steep, rocky climbs and descents - to say nothing of all the "little" ones. I see it will also be hot and humid. Add in tendinitis and the next couple of days should be a real challenge for him. But once past there, it gets easier for awhile.

[Crushed Grapes]

Harvey is about to get into the more difficult part of Virginia where there are a several big, steep, rocky climbs and descents

That downhill on the Priest......whew doggie

[TrailRunnerGuy]

That downhill on the Priest......whew doggie

I happened to run the last mile + of the Priest down to 56 with him, running up some food/drink since we missed him at the previous crew spot. He was bombing down sections of that and ran well on all of what I saw. Wish I could've taken video but I couldn't even quite keep up just concentrating on running. Spent most of the last 4 days crewing and sometimes accompanying--really impressed especially how he keeps so upbeat even during rough patches. No disrespect to stringbean or any of the others, just that I'm seeing this effort firsthand.

[CalebJ]

Spent most of the last 4 days crewing and sometimes accompanying--really impressed especially how he keeps so upbeat even during rough patches.
He's been smiling in every picture I've seen on Facebook. David Horton and Tim Lewis have posted a few in the last couple of days and he looks great. Good luck!

[Odd Man Out]

Despite doing well, he is still loosing ground to Stringbean's pace every day. He will need to post at least 50 MPD just to keep pace, mid 50's to close the gap.




Harvey

StringBean




Day
Start Location
Day Miles
Location
Day Miles
Ahead of Pace


0
Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus

Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus




1
Unicoi Gap/GA Hwy 75
52.3
Low Gap Shelter
42.6
9.7


2
Rock Gap Shelter/USFS Rd 67
53.1
Standing Indian Shelter
43.1
19.7


3
Stecoah Gap/NC Hwy 143
44.9
Nantahala, NC/US Hwy 19/74
50.8
13.8


4
Clingmans Dome Tower
49.3
Spence Field Shelter/Eagle Creek Trail
46.8
16.3


5
Davenport Gap/NC Hwy 32
39.1
Cosby Knob Shelter
47.4
8.0


6
Log Cabin Rd
52.1
Hot Springs, NC/NC Hwy 209
43.6
16.5


7
Spivey Gap/US Hwy 19W
42.0
Bald Mtn Shelter
52.7
5.8


8
Roan Mountain, TN/US Hwy 19E
62.0
Roan High Knob Shelter
51.5
16.3


9
Iron Mtn Shelter
49.2
Watauga Lake Shelter
51.5
14.0


10
Elk Garden/VA Rd 600
50.3
Saunders Shelter
49.6
14.7


11
Partnership Shelter/VA Hwy 16
39.2
Partnership Shelter/VA Hwy 16
53.9
0.0


12
Laurel Creek/VA Rd 615
50.8
Jenkins Shelter/Hunting Camp Creek
46.4
4.4


13
Pearisburg, VA/VA Hwy 100
52.2
Cross Ave/VA Rd 793
55.6
1.0


14
Rocky Gap/VA Rd 601
34.8
Craig Creek/VA Rd 621
52.8
-17.0


15
Catawba, VA/VA Hwy 311
38.1
Daleville, VA/US Hwy 220
40.9
-19.8


16
Bearwallow Gap/BRP 90.9
41.4
Thunder Hill
44.8
-23.2


17
Robinson Gap Rd/VA Rd 607
46.4
Woodworth Shelter/Lovingston Trail
47.8
-24.6


18
Reids Gap/VA Rd 664/BRP 13.6
46.7
Calf Mtn Shelter
48.9
-26.8

[matthew.d.kirk]

As Harvey has moved further along, the incredibleness (that's a word, right?) of what Joe did is becoming more and more apparent. And regardless of how Harvey finishes, Joe's unsupported AT record will remain (my guess would be for quite some time).

My head is still spinning from last year’s performances by both Joes! The more I ponder it, the more I think we’re nearing a tipping point (at least on the AT) where a “self-supported” bid (or some hybrid of crewed fast packing) is most advantageous. Crazy to think...

Quality lightweight gear can help insure a good rest whenever and wherever for just a few pounds on the back. No days need to be inconveniently shortened/lengthened as they do when relying on roads for the day’s starting/stopping points.

Consider also the uptick in goods and services with the connectivity that’s now become standard. Conversations with ground control can happen more and more places without loss of signal. With ear buds in, one can walk and talk down the trail. No time need be wasted with strategy sessions outside a parked RV.

Every supported effort seems to have a story of a botched rendezvous. The driver gets lost, the van runs out of gas, a tire pops... Meanwhile, it’s easier and easier for a hiker (or a friend, or family member on behalf of the hiker) to call ahead to some service down the trail. Arranging timely delivery of a meat-lover’s pizza to a trailhead, for example. I’m not even sure I’m up on all the latest tricks anymore…

Prearranged? Perhaps. The point is: things are endlessly evolving and the semantics of “self-supported” seem to matter less when it’s the overall FKT at stake. As curiosity takes hold, I’m becoming more intrigued and less irritated by the blurring of lines… Good luck to Harvey and kudos for the tracking.

[TravisRex]

My head is still spinning from last year’s performances by both Joes! The more I ponder it, the more I think we’re nearing a tipping point (at least on the AT) where a “self-supported” bid (or some hybrid of crewed fast packing) is most advantageous. Crazy to think...



It does make a lot of sense. There have been several days in this journey where the team has had to decide between something like 41 and 55 miles. That's...that's not an ideal choice.

If I was making my own run at the FKT I'd do a hybrid approach like you're proposing and have a support crew available during the day, and pick up a bag of overnight gear late in the day (or if I'm making a wish list, have an advance crew hike out and set up camp and continue running as light as possible). Or sleep in the van once every 3-4 nights. You'll still run into some of these odd distance situations but it feels like they'd be happening a lot less often. It felt like Harvey had multiple days in a row where the options were either picking a number way under or way over his goal pace. It got to the point where I just started scanning the AT Data Book for road crossings that were 8+ miles apart and sure enough, those would be the ones that Harvey's day would end with needing to make a decision about that section.

Thus far, Harvey has stayed at a shelter just once - Iron Mountain on day 9 - and unfortunately didn't sleep all that well which turned him off staying in the back country (In full disclosure, the plan had been to always stay at the van, at least south of PA, but the road crossing at Wilbur Dam Rd was too early in the day and Tenn 91 would have made for a very long day (54 miles after doing 62 the day before) so Harvey called an audible and slept somewhere other than the van/hostel.

[TravisRex]

Despite doing well, he is still loosing ground to Stringbean's pace every day. He will need to post at least 50 MPD just to keep pace, mid 50's to close the gap.



Unfortunately Day 19 was another rough day to Black Rock Gap - which I have as 40.5 miles behind Stringbean. I took Harvey's mark at 18 days, 12 hours - or 27 days to go for the FKT - and he needs 48.8 for those 27 days which obviously get tougher.

Over the next 7 days (including day 19), Stringbean did 353.9, an average of 50.6 per day just to hold the gap at 40 miles. Jurek, it should be noted, did 377.2 over those same 7 days so it's possible to make up some ground.

Ultimately it all comes down to how Harvey's feeling. As TrailRunnerGuy noted, when he's running, he's moving well, and when I spoke with him earlier in the week he made a point of asking how my family was doing, so he still seems to be very "Harvey-like" (if you've met him before you'll know what that means).

But a positive mental outlook and good vibes won't suddenly make the miles tick by faster. As I log the day's miles and look ahead to potential stops for the next three days, that's one less day for him to be able to make up some time.

Right now I can still make the numbers make sense on paper. Is it still possible? Sure. Joe went from being 18 miles ahead of Jurek on day 19 to 9 miles behind Jurek on day 24. A few good days in a row - and maybe a very good day or two - and Harvey is back in this. A few more bad days and, well....

[OwenRunning]

Thanks for your updates TravisRex. Love the numbers you are processing. Everything looks doable on paper [emoji6]. Like you said though, it’s all up to how Harvey is feeling. He’s not out of the picture yet but like you said, there certainly will be a tipping point. I hope either way Harvey will stand on top of Mt. Katahdin. I couldn’t imagine the mental dialogue going on in Harvey’s head with those numbers. Hope he doesn’t focus on them to much. But even more exaggerated than, say, a 100 mile race you start realizing that X person is X time ahead and there is X miles left that means I have to run X fast. It’s hard. Couldn’t imagine it over the next 27 days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CalebJ]

My head is still spinning from last year’s performances by both Joes! The more I ponder it, the more I think we’re nearing a tipping point (at least on the AT) where a “self-supported” bid (or some hybrid of crewed fast packing) is most advantageous. Crazy to think...

Quality lightweight gear can help insure a good rest whenever and wherever for just a few pounds on the back. No days need to be inconveniently shortened/lengthened as they do when relying on roads for the day’s starting/stopping points.

Consider also the uptick in goods and services with the connectivity that’s now become standard. Conversations with ground control can happen more and more places without loss of signal. With ear buds in, one can walk and talk down the trail. No time need be wasted with strategy sessions outside a parked RV.

Every supported effort seems to have a story of a botched rendezvous. The driver gets lost, the van runs out of gas, a tire pops... Meanwhile, it’s easier and easier for a hiker (or a friend, or family member on behalf of the hiker) to call ahead to some service down the trail. Arranging timely delivery of a meat-lover’s pizza to a trailhead, for example. I’m not even sure I’m up on all the latest tricks anymore…

Prearranged? Perhaps. The point is: things are endlessly evolving and the semantics of “self-supported” seem to matter less when it’s the overall FKT at stake. As curiosity takes hold, I’m becoming more intrigued and less irritated by the blurring of lines… Good luck to Harvey and kudos for the tracking.

Does any of that increasing intrigue lead to making another go of it? I feel like you really generated the inertia of self supported record breakthroughs over the last few years.

[matthew.d.kirk]

Does any of that increasing intrigue lead to making another go of it? I feel like you really generated the inertia of self supported record breakthroughs over the last few years.

Haha. Getting a 1.5 month pass is just about as out of reach as these amazing performances... But thanks for the compliment!:) If I ever do whip this dad bod back into mountain shape, I might have a go (in a hybridized style) at something less than half as long as the AT. But right now, that adventure remains a dream and a fun/annoying mapping problem (chinese postman algorithm, anyone?)

Meanwhile, it's going to keep heating up on the AT this season (both literally and figuratively) as http://www.karelsabbe.com/ gets ready to roll out.

[TravisRex]

But right now, that adventure remains a dream and a fun/annoying mapping problem (chinese postman algorithm, anyone?)



Ooh man, we started trying to go down the road of "Science the <bleep> out of this" to use the quote from The Martian, but the problem is that each day the best path changes unless you make the optimal choice each day. What might have been the best possible option for Day 5 when you first started now doesn't make sense. So rather than try to solve the the trail long distance, we started looking at shorter time periods (typically 3 days) to come up with the "best" route for any given mileage.

So the program that I wrote (The "HarveyTrack 3000," because all good mapping programs need to have a 3000 in the name) starts by looking to see what combination of distances gets you to a desired average distance (let's say 50 miles). Then it looks to see which group of distances are the closest together (or what I'm calling "efficiency"). Let's say you end up with the following:

Option 1:
Day 1: 50 miles
Day 2: 60 miles
Day 3: 40 miles

Option 2:
Day 1: 52 miles
Day 2: 48 miles
Day 3: 50 miles

Assuming the same amount of elevation each day (say 13,000 feet), option 2 is clearly preferable. You end up with the same average, but the difference between your long day and your short day is only 4 miles. Are there instances where Option 1 might make more sense? Sure - especially if you're self supported and are able to restock on day 3. But it feels more efficient to have your distances as close to your target as possible.

Where it gets tougher is if Option 2 had the following distances instead:
Day 1: 47 miles
Day 2: 49 miles
Day 3: 48 miles

The average here is only 48 - so you're 6 miles behind, but your min/max range is only 2 miles compared to 20 miles in Option 1. Is that worth being 6 miles behind? I don't know.

That's actually an interesting question - and one that I'm curious to start playing around with - if someone wanted to average 49 miles per day, staying overnight only at road crossings, and completely ignoring elevation/mud/any other factor - what are the most efficient stops each day?

[TravisRex]

Here's a post that I made on the Facebook group, recapping the progress the first 22 days. Someone - correctly - pointed out that JPD was not included in the metrics that I originally posted, but I did later add her in (she went through Crampton Gap southbound on Day 26, so was effectively on the same pace as Karl).

As Day 22 draws to a close (well, technically at 5 am tomorrow morning), let's take a second and check to see how Harvey is doing overall:

NOTE: As of 11:15 pm eastern, Harvey is still on the move. This post assumes that he's stopping at the next road crossing.

Miles: 1041.2 (Reno Monument Road, Fox Gap). 54.2 miles on the day, 52.7 mile average over the past three days (50.6, 53.4, 54.2). Overall average, 47.3 miles per day.

Let's look at how that compares:

- At the end of his day 22, Joe "Stringbean" McConaughy was at 1077.5 miles - 36.3 miles ahead. Over the next 7 days, Joe averaged 49.9 miles with a low of 39.7 and a high of 53.8. (And again, remember that Joe was self-supported. He had no van, no hot meal waiting, no one to do his laundry).

- Scott Jurek ended his day 22 at 1066.8 - 25.6 miles ahead. Over the next 7 days, Jurek averaged 52.6 miles with a low of 45.5 and a high of 59.2.

If you've been following along, you'll notice these are the two main benchmarks that the team talks about. Stringbean as the current record holder, and Jurek for the large public interest following the recent publication of his book "North."

There's not a lot of comparison done to Karl Meltzer or Joey Campanelli (who I don't know if we've mentioned by name, but did a 48 day, 23 hour self-supported journey and deserves some recognition) - mostly because they traveled from Maine to Georgia (SOuthBOund - or SOBO like the cool kids say), so it's difficult to make a comparison with the different terrain.

(Just a quick aside, but Stringbean and Campanelli were both hiking on the trail in opposite directions at the same time. Stringbean started from the south in late July, Campanelli from the north in early August. Not only were they both unsupported, they were effectively going head-to-head on the trail)

But since we're doing a recap, let's dive into Karl's numbers.

After 22 days, Karl was at 956.9 miles, though across the challenging northern terrain. Coincidentally on Day 26, Karl slept at "Gapland Rd" - which Harvey went through late in the day today.

So there's two ways to look at Karl's progress:

1. If Harvey travels to Maine at the same speed that Karl traveled south, Harvey will finish in 48 days (22 days to this point, 26 days for Karl from Maine->Gapland Rd).

2. From Gapland Road, it took Karl 20 days (or technically 19 days, 22 hours, and 38 minutes) to travel the same distance as Harvey has covered in 22 days.

Here's part of the reason why we've avoiding making these kinds of comparisons to Karl's progress - it doesn't account for the "final kick" factor. Or as much of a final kick as you can have after spending 6 weeks sleeping in the back of a van. Karl was pushing hard as he got closer to Springer Mountain, the same way that Harvey will be pushing hard as he gets closer to Maine. So instead we focus on the Northbounders where everyone was (roughly) in the same place at the (roughly) same time.

One of the roles that I play on the team as the "numbers guy" is to be objective, pragmatic, and realistic. Numbers don't have feelings. It doesn't matter if 3 is in a great mood, it's still less than 4 (Which reminds me of a joke - Why is 6 afraid of 7? Because 7 8 9. Get it? 7 ate 9? This is why I'm the "numbers guy" not the "funny guy")

Harvey's behind record pace. He knows it, everyone on the team knows it. But knowing something doesn't determine how you react to it. We all know what needs to be done and we're all doing what we can to support Harvey, whether from the side of the road, in front of a computer screen, or just putting positive energy out into the world.

I wrote a draft of this post earlier today figuring I knew where he'd be stopping for the day after spending 3 weeks watching little triangles appear on a map every 10 minutes. And frantically wrote a new version as I "saw" him move beyond that point.

I got a message from Harvey's fiancee Kelly the other day recapping a phone call with Harvey earlier that day - "He said, 'I'm a fighting fox, just wait and see what I can still do.' He also said he is not going to back down."

Harvey still believes this is possible.

And, from my objective, pragmatic, realistic view....he's right.

It is possible.

I've known Harvey for 4 years, been a part of his crew at the Badwater 135 three times, and followed numerous races of his online. And there will come a time where I look at the gap to the leader, or his current pace, and as the numbers guy think to myself "There's no way he comes back from this..."

And then he does.

I've witnessed first-hand Harvey shuffling along a road, only to find myself desperately trying to keep up as he sprints uphill at 8:00 mile pace (in the case of one particular half mile section at Badwater, while carrying paper cups filled with pancakes and syrup. Quick crewing tip for you: Don't try to run while carrying a cup of syrup)

So as much as the objective, pragmatic, realistic part of my brain wants to put down my AT Guide Books and spreadsheets thinking "There's no way he comes back from this..." I know better.

I can't say for certain that he's going to break the record. What I can say for certain is that the next 22 days are going to be one hell of a ride.

Jenny Baker and her husband Franklin spent several days on two separate trips crewing for Harvey, ended one of her emails to the rest of the team with the following line which I just love (and am incredibly jealous that I didn't write) because it embodies Harvey and this journey so well:

"It's really beautiful when someone takes the wisdom of the past and marries it with the reality of the present to create a unique adventure."”

[ScottS]

As Harvey has moved further along, the incredibleness (that's a word, right?) of what Joe did is becoming more and more apparent.

I really don't believe it can be undersold. The only reason he didn't get every award, every ___ of the year, etc. is because the feat is so far outside what most people are familiar with that they don't understand how incredible it is.


MThe more I ponder it, the more I think we’re nearing a tipping point (at least on the AT) where a “self-supported” bid (or some hybrid of crewed fast packing) is most advantageous.

Hybrid:
It's the best. Any limitations you can lift will benefit you. The year before my attempt I took notes of every single water source that was directly on trail and had room for a tent. If you have that kind of intimacy of the trail combined with a support van, you should be able to tailor every single day to almost the exact mileage you need while only having to actually carry the tarp/etc. on the days you need it. And only from the last time you see your crew to the first in the morning.
It's really fun seeing the way the "sport" of FKT is evolving since sponsors have started getting involved. We're in the era of top athletes coming in but they're doing challenges they're unfamiliar with. There's still room for someone who really knows the trail to have advantages in logistics and strategy. And it's funny because top athletes all know that knowing a course makes it easier...
I'm really excited for the first person to either take the time to learn a trail (never going to happen with the AT) or to actually have someone on their crew who isn't a friend but just knows the route intimately. Coaches in FKTs! Can you imagine?? "___ is going for the FKT and he's got ____ in his crew." I mean, using Harvey's background as an example, I would be very surprised if he were to say a Badwater CR should be attempted by someone who has never stepped foot on the course and whose crew has never done it either. In the future, the idea of going into these giant FKTs blind will seem silly.


I feel like you really generated the inertia of self supported record breakthroughs over the last few years.

Bannister:Track
Kirk:AT

[ScottS]

Also, shoutout to the Georgia Jewel.

[James GAME2009]

Travis,

Thanks for the great updates. I've really been enjoying following this, as I do all record attempts. Your first-person insight makes this attempt particularly interesting. I also appreciate you acknowledging what an absolutely amazing thing Stringbean did. He truly blew it out of the water on his hike.

[Linesman]

Also, shoutout to the Georgia Jewel.

Are you working on the AT this summer or different Scott S?

[TrailRunnerGuy]

Past the halfway point (1099) pretty early this morning. Still a little behind but 4 big days in a row, averaging ~55 miles/day, which puts him right back in the game.

[TravisRex]

Travis,

Thanks for the great updates. I've really been enjoying following this, as I do all record attempts. Your first-person insight makes this attempt particularly interesting. I also appreciate you acknowledging what an absolutely amazing thing Stringbean did. He truly blew it out of the water on his hike.

Thanks James! While doing research for the attempt, WhiteBlaze was one of the best sources for daily breakdowns (OddManOut and MapMan come to mind) as well as people posing questions, making suggestions, and some uh, "constructive criticism."

One of the things that Harvey wanted to do with his run was to make it accessible. Harvey thrives on positive thought and support (my first year with him at Badwater, one of the other guys on the crew suggested that I periodically put my hand on his shoulder and talk to him about what I was experiencing and how that was possible because of what he was doing), and so we've tried to pull back the curtain to some extent and let people peek behind the curtain a bit.

On a personal level, I've really enjoyed reading WB and all of the discussion on both this and other attempts, and it's clear that this is an amazing, passionate (and at times amazingly passionate) community who truly love this trail. And I appreciate the opportunity to poke my head in the door and share some additional insight on this attempt.

I know there are some who likely looked at Harvey as an interloping ultrarunner - and a road runner at that - and probably rolled their eyes. I know when Harvey first started talking to me about it, my initial reaction was "Wait, what? Really?" But Harvey does respect the trail, those footsteps he's literally following, and the people that he's meeting along the trail and in the towns along the way. He went into this knowing it was going to be a huge challenge, and I've had several conversations with him that have included him saying "You have no idea how tough this is."

Did he really know what he was getting himself into? Oh heck no. I don't think anyone who has done a thru-hike ever really does. The team has had multiple conversations that ended with "Man, I wish we had an extra year to plan!" But I don't doubt that in June of 2019 we'd still be sitting here saying "Man, I wish we had an extra year." Attempting a thru-hike, let alone an FKT, is a mammoth undertaking (as I know many of you are intimately aware).

ScottS and Matthew.d.kirk are right on in their assessment - the FKT will get to the point (and maybe it already is at this point) where the only way to break the record is to spend years of trial, planning, scheduling, and potentially multiple attempts and will require a specialized skillset (and maybe a healthy dose of luck and trail magic). Jurek broke the record thanks to his world-class fitness (and other reasons), Meltzer broke the record thanks to his planning (and other reasons). I have no idea how Stringbean and Joey did what they did.

[Malto]

Travis, the intimate knowledge of the trail was a huge advantage for Scott Williamson when he was setting near annual records on the PCT. He knew unmarked water sources and I suspect he had unadvertised resupply points based on relationships that he had established. As far as the hybrid approach goes, I wonder if the efficiency of sleeping at times on the trail is outweighed by the support factor of being around others. I guess you could have a traveling hiking crew to get the best of both worlds.

[ScottS]

Are you working on the AT this summer or different Scott S?

Different guy.

[Violent Green]

Hybrid:
It's the best. Any limitations you can lift will benefit you. The year before my attempt I took notes of every single water source that was directly on trail and had room for a tent. If you have that kind of intimacy of the trail combined with a support van, you should be able to tailor every single day to almost the exact mileage you need while only having to actually carry the tarp/etc. on the days you need it. And only from the last time you see your crew to the first in the morning.
It's really fun seeing the way the "sport" of FKT is evolving since sponsors have started getting involved. We're in the era of top athletes coming in but they're doing challenges they're unfamiliar with. There's still room for someone who really knows the trail to have advantages in logistics and strategy. And it's funny because top athletes all know that knowing a course makes it easier.

This. I still see the occasional "we had to do 39 miles or 66 miles due to road crossings, so we did 39" with practically every attempt. Was it JPD's crew that hiked in and set up camp for her?
I think we're nearing the speed limit faster than the logistical limit.

[TravisRex]

Harvey's had a rough couple of days with some falls outside of Port Clinton and getting off-trail heading into Delaware Water Gap (he corrected, backtracked, and was back on trail with about an hour of lost time).

I spent some time last night - with "Made to Be Broken" playing in the background on Netflix - trying to work out a strategy for the remaining 18 days and what options exist for closing a 30 mile deficit to Stringbean.

I'm drawn to day 44. From numbers I found on the forums here, Stringbean ended day 44 at 2076.4. Jurek ended at 2074.6. Despite being at nearly the same distance, Stringbean finished 19 hours and 52 minutes faster than Jurek. I know that he made that final push without sleeping, but that was the first time that I've really dug into those numbers.

And so the question shifted to trying to figure out how to get Harvey far enough ahead by day 44 that he might have a buffer against Stringbean's final push.

He'll end today (it's 10 pm eastern and he's still moving) somewhere around 20-30 miles behind Stringbean. So there's time to make up that he's behind already - and time that he needs to get ahead to guard against Stringbean's closing speed.

The numbers still make sense on paper. With Scott and Joe being at roughly the same place, I've put together a plan that targets a few miles more than whatever the maximum was done by Stringbean or Jurek on each particular day. For instance on Day 35, Stringbean did 55.3, Jurek did 50.4. We're looking at 58.5.

It's tough, it's aggressive, but it's the only way at this point.

[chknfngrs]

I think it’s awesome and an amazing effort for what it’s worth hopefully this guy knows no matter what he’s a damn fine runner

[TravisRex]

I think it’s awesome and an amazing effort for what it’s worth hopefully this guy knows no matter what he’s a damn fine runner

Before Harvey even started, I had some conversations with people about what it would mean for him to complete the trail, but miss the record. Obviously it's something that happens - Joey last fall comes to mind - but I can't imagine what that feeling would be like. Actually, after going completing the trail - regardless of how fast - I can't imagine what that must feel like.

For any of you who have completed a thru-hike, what is the feeling like of going back to the "real world?"

[putts]

For any of you who have completed a thru-hike, what is the feeling like of going back to the "real world?"

It's easier if you have a good support crew and know where you are going to camp. In all seriousness though, for me, the transition was tough. I was ill prepared.

[Crushed Grapes]

Is his Road ID page not loading correctly for anyone else? The map won't display for me

[Odd Man Out]

Is his Road ID page not loading correctly for anyone else? The map won't display for me

It worked just now. I have had a few times when the map wouldn't load. Then if I reload the page it was fine. I think sometimes it just gets stuck. I've tried switching to a different browser when it wouldn't load and that helped.

[Odd Man Out]

Here's what I have so far, along with Stringbean's pace to the finish.




Harvey

StringBean




Day
Start Location
Day Miles
Location
Day Miles
Ahead of Pace


0
Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus

Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus




1
Unicoi Gap/GA Hwy 75
52.3
Low Gap Shelter
42.6
9.7


2
Rock Gap Shelter/USFS Rd 67
53.1
Standing Indian Shelter
43.1
19.7


3
Stecoah Gap/NC Hwy 143
44.9
Nantahala, NC/US Hwy 19/74
50.8
13.8


4
Clingmans Dome Tower
49.3
Spence Field Shelter/Eagle Creek Trail
46.8
16.3


5
Davenport Gap/NC Hwy 32
39.1
Cosby Knob Shelter
47.4
8.0


6
Log Cabin Rd
52.1
Hot Springs, NC/NC Hwy 209
43.6
16.5


7
Spivey Gap/US Hwy 19W
42.0
Bald Mtn Shelter
52.7
5.8


8
Roan Mountain, TN/US Hwy 19E
62.0
Roan High Knob Shelter
51.5
16.3


9
Iron Mtn Shelter
49.2
Watauga Lake Shelter
51.5
14.0


10
Elk Garden/VA Rd 600
50.3
Saunders Shelter
49.6
14.7


11
Partnership Shelter/VA Hwy 16
39.2
Partnership Shelter/VA Hwy 16
53.9
0.0


12
Laurel Creek/VA Rd 615
50.8
Jenkins Shelter/Hunting Camp Creek
46.4
4.4


13
Pearisburg, VA/VA Hwy 100
52.2
Cross Ave/VA Rd 793
55.6
1.0


14
Rocky Gap/VA Rd 601
34.8
Craig Creek/VA Rd 621
52.8
-17.0


15
Catawba, VA/VA Hwy 311
38.1
Daleville, VA/US Hwy 220
40.9
-19.8


16
Bearwallow Gap/BRP 90.9
41.4
Thunder Hill
44.8
-23.2


17
Robinson Gap Rd/VA Rd 607
46.4
Woodworth Shelter/Lovingston Trail
47.8
-24.6


18
Reids Gap/VA Rd 664/BRP 13.6
46.7
Calf Mtn Shelter
48.9
-26.8


19
Black Rock Gap/Skyline 87.4
39.1
Lewis Spring/Big Meadows Wayside
53.9
-41.6


20
Skyland Loop Rd
50.6
Goose Creek/VA Rd 638
52.5
-43.5


21
Whiskey Hollow Shelter
52.4
Loudoun Heights
45.1
-36.2


22
Rocky Run Shelter
54.2
South Mtn, PA/PA Hwy 233
56.7
-38.7


23
Woodrow Rd
58.5
Conodoguinet Creek/Bernheisel Bridge Rd
54.1
-34.3


24
Peters Mtn Rd/PA Hwy 225
57.8
Yellow Springs
39.5
-16.0


25
Shartlesville Rd
55.3
Windsor Furnace Shelter
52.1
-12.8


26
Bake Oven Knob Rd
38.3
Leroy Smith Shelter
50.0
-24.5


27
Beulah Trail
47.9
Gren Anderson Shelter/Stony Brook
51.5
-28.1


28
Lake Wallkill Rd
52.8
Mombasha Mtn/Allis Trail
52.1
-27.4


29


RPH Shelter/Hortontown Rd
51.9



30


Caesar Brook Campsite
52.0



31


Tyringham, MA/Jerusalem Rd
59.0



32


Wilbur Clearing Shelter/Notch Rd
49.2



33


Stratton Pond Shelter
50.8



34


GovernorClement Shelter
50.2



35


Norwich, VT/Elm St
55.0



36


Oliverian Brook/NH Hwy 25
45.7



37


Liberty Springs Camp
28.4



38


Ripley Falls Trail
24.6



39


Carter Dome/Rainbow Trail
33.6



40


Mahoosuc Notch/South End
36.9



41


Spruce Mtn
42.7



42


Crocker Cirque Campsite
37.2



43


Kennebec River
44.0



44


North Pond Brook
40.8



45


Mud Pond
57.6



45.51


Mt Katahdin/AT Northern Terminus
53.1

[TravisRex]

Yeah we've had a number of issues with the RoadiD map but haven't been able to find an exact cause. We think it has something to do with the number of connections but nothing seems to really explain it.

[Odd Man Out]

He ran past midnight last night and was going before 7 AM today. At 8 AM today he at the low point. that is, crossing the Hudson. It's all uphill from here.

[thestin]

Harvey had a fairly short day yesterday, stopping at Mile 1471.8, which puts him 58.3 miles behind StringBean's pace. He is having a good day today, having already gone 40 miles.

[thestin]

Harvey covered 57.3 miles on Saturday, leaving him 50.2 miles behind StringBean's pace.

[thestin]

Looks like I may have been confused with Harvey's starting point on Saturday. It appears he covered around 47 miles, leaving him around 60 miles behind StringBean's pace.

[Odd Man Out]

This is what I have as of this morning. For the first time he is more than a day behind Stringbean, i.e. he started day 32 behind the spot where Stringbean started day 31.




Harvey

StringBean




Day
Start Location
Day Miles
Location
Day Miles
Ahead of Pace


0
Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus

Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus




1
Unicoi Gap/GA Hwy 75
52.3
Low Gap Shelter
42.6
9.7


2
Rock Gap Shelter/USFS Rd 67
53.1
Standing Indian Shelter
43.1
19.7


3
Stecoah Gap/NC Hwy 143
44.9
Nantahala, NC/US Hwy 19/74
50.8
13.8


4
Clingmans Dome Tower
49.3
Spence Field Shelter/Eagle Creek Trail
46.8
16.3


5
Davenport Gap/NC Hwy 32
39.1
Cosby Knob Shelter
47.4
8.0


6
Log Cabin Rd
52.1
Hot Springs, NC/NC Hwy 209
43.6
16.5


7
Spivey Gap/US Hwy 19W
42.0
Bald Mtn Shelter
52.7
5.8


8
Roan Mountain, TN/US Hwy 19E
62.0
Roan High Knob Shelter
51.5
16.3


9
Iron Mtn Shelter
49.2
Watauga Lake Shelter
51.5
14.0


10
Elk Garden/VA Rd 600
50.3
Saunders Shelter
49.6
14.7


11
Partnership Shelter/VA Hwy 16
39.2
Partnership Shelter/VA Hwy 16
53.9
0.0


12
Laurel Creek/VA Rd 615
50.8
Jenkins Shelter/Hunting Camp Creek
46.4
4.4


13
Pearisburg, VA/VA Hwy 100
52.2
Cross Ave/VA Rd 793
55.6
1.0


14
Rocky Gap/VA Rd 601
34.8
Craig Creek/VA Rd 621
52.8
-17.0


15
Catawba, VA/VA Hwy 311
38.1
Daleville, VA/US Hwy 220
40.9
-19.8


16
Bearwallow Gap/BRP 90.9
41.4
Thunder Hill
44.8
-23.2


17
Robinson Gap Rd/VA Rd 607
46.4
Woodworth Shelter/Lovingston Trail
47.8
-24.6


18
Reids Gap/VA Rd 664/BRP 13.6
46.7
Calf Mtn Shelter
48.9
-26.8


19
Black Rock Gap/Skyline 87.4
39.1
Lewis Spring/Big Meadows Wayside
53.9
-41.6


20
Skyland Loop Rd
50.6
Goose Creek/VA Rd 638
52.5
-43.5


21
Whiskey Hollow Shelter
52.4
Loudoun Heights
45.1
-36.2


22
Rocky Run Shelter
54.2
South Mtn, PA/PA Hwy 233
56.7
-38.7


23
Woodrow Rd
58.5
Conodoguinet Creek/Bernheisel Bridge Rd
54.1
-34.3


24
Peters Mtn Rd/PA Hwy 225
57.8
Yellow Springs
39.5
-16.0


25
Shartlesville Rd
55.3
Windsor Furnace Shelter
52.1
-12.8


26
Bake Oven Knob Rd
38.3
Leroy Smith Shelter
50.0
-24.5


27
Beulah Trail
47.9
Gren Anderson Shelter/Stony Brook
51.5
-28.1


28
Lake Wallkill Rd
52.8
Mombasha Mtn/Allis Trail
52.1
-27.4


29
Seven Lakes Dr
48.9
RPH Shelter/Hortontown Rd
51.9
-30.4


30
AT Metro Station/NY Hwy 22/55
50.3
Caesar Brook Campsite
52.0
-32.1


31
Carse Brook/Cornwall Rd
34.3
Tyringham, MA/Jerusalem Rd
59.0
-56.8


32
Blue Hill Rd
47.0
Wilbur Clearing Shelter/Notch Rd
49.2
-59.0

[Slo-go'en]

If he's already that far behind, no catching up. He's about to get into the hard parts of the trail and with afternoon thunderstorms popping up in the Whites lately, that will slow him down even more.

[Lone Wolf]

it's over....

[Ethesis]

it's over....


Too bad.

But I expect more and more ultra marathoners to be giving it a shot.

[TravisRex]

Officially, we're still looking approaching things like he has a chance at getting the record. We've put together a schedule that includes four very long days with the rest similar to the mileage of Jurek/Joe.

Unofficially (and speaking only for myself), the schedule is pretty unrealistic, and I'm starting to work on an end-game that would bring him in at 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 days. At some point the focus will need to shift from pushing as hard as possible to leaving enough in the tank to be able to finish.

Harvey posted a video from the trail yesterday where he was fairly candid about how the trail was different than he expected. I'm sure some/many/most would argue that he was unprepared bordering on naive on what conditions would be like. Warren Doyle has been a fairly consistent presence over on the Facebook page pointing out how Harvey lacks the hiker mindset and providing daily "Reality Checks" on his progress. And I'm sure some are glad to see the record remain with an unsupported hiker rather than a corporate sponsored ultrarunner.

Whether you agree or disagree with how Harvey chose to attack the trail, and whether he was doing things the "right" way or not, I think it's worth taking a moment to appreciate what Harvey has done for the group of people following along with his well-documented route.

We've been encouraging people to run/hike a mile each day since Harvey started, resulting in people logging 9,340 miles "with" Harvey over the first two weeks. The comments are filled with people getting up early to get out before the heat, or adding an extra mile on to the end of their run as the "Harvey mile." For many people this is the first time that they've attempted a daily run/walk streak of getting out and moving every day.

Yesterday, there was a post about an 8-year old girl that Harvey befriended at a race in Cincinnati a few years ago (if you know Harvey, this is nothing unusual. I've run with him before where we'll come up on someone else out running and Harvey will slow down and start talking to them. After a few minutes, they tag along and follow behind like the Pied Piper. I remember one run where it started with 3 of us and ended with 7 people in the group). Her mom wrote to say that she often uses Harvey as an example of how "what may seem impossible, can become possible if you dream big and believe in yourself." The fact that there's an 8 year old girl out there who is seeing on a daily basis Harvey chasing the impossible but believing he can do it, is an incredibly cool moment.

But as someone put it, "Being a nice guy and inspiring people doesn't get you any closer to the end of the trail."

In 13 days, the clock that started 45 days, 12 hours and 15 minutes ago will stop. Harvey will be at the top of Katahdin, or he won't. He will break the record. Or he won't. But regardless of what the clock says when (or if...) he makes it to the summit, it doesn't take away from the effect that he's had on 8-year old AnnaLee or a single mother in Arizona walking on her lunch break because that's the only time in her day where she can be active.

The clock will stop, but the influence of Harvey's attempt will continue on well after 45 days have passed.

[Bobby]

It’s a good first effort. I think it’s highly unusual for an ultra runner with little to no hiking/AT experience to go out and beat it the first time. Kind of why Jureks run was so impressive. The true test will be if he comes back and makes changes based on what he’s learned from this first trip.

[Slo-go'en]

Reminds me of the woman from Colorado who tried to beat the FKT for the Long Trail. She ended up a full day behind the record and commented something like "I had no idea this trail would be so hard". People who run western trails are in for a shock when they find out what the AT is like. The heat and humidity of a summer attempt doesn't help either. Doing it in cooler months helps from dying of heat stroke, the trade off being less daylight hours.

[TrailRunnerGuy]

Great post, TravisRex. From what I saw in my week with him, Harvey is also getting a lot out of the people experience on the AT, interacting with a lot of hikers, trail angels, and others he sees, plus those who drop in and run with him and crew.

[ScottS]

And I'm sure some are glad to see the record remain with an unsupported hiker rather than a corporate sponsored ultrarunner. Whether you agree or disagree with how Harvey chose to attack the trail, and whether he was doing things the "right" way or not

Dude, anyone who goes faster than like 14mpd gets accused of doing the trail "wrong" by jagoffs. Don't sweat any of those people. Hike your own hike.
With the experience all of you are getting doing this, I really hope you guys come back for another go. And seriously, 3rd place or however you end up is still astounding.

[brew]

Hey y’all. Some of you may recognize my name and some not. My wife Jen set the AT fkt in 2011. I tried to reply to a comment a week or so ago but forgot my password and am such a technology rookie (and busy dad with two kids) that it’s taken me this long to figure it out. First off, congrats to Harvey on a strong attempt. He seems like one of the nicest guys in the world. I’ll throw out an answer and then a couple observations. I’m speaking as a trail runner AND an AT section hiker. Yes, Jen did sleep on the trail quite a bit, sometimes between road crossings which was a huge advantage. (And frankly, something future record attempterd are gonna HAVE to do in the future. And maybe practice if they’re trail runners and are not used to it.) Even at the road crossings we camped out because our highlander was packed with stuff. As for the random thoughts, I continue to be surprised that guys unfamiliar with the trail don’t do their homework a little more and underestimate the trail and previous record setters do grossly. Scott was aiming for 42 days, the trail was a shock to his system and the whites were almost too much for him to overcome. Karl learned a LOT from attempts 1 to 3 and really became an AT fkt expert in that time. Joe had trail experience and talent (like Matt but maybe he just pushed himself more... and was possibly had that much faster. I don’t know). Jen had hiked twice before, once as the women’s record attempt. And we had trail yoga warren Doyle giving us advice literally at every turn, at least in the women’s record and the first two weeks of the overall. If Harvey comes back he’ll obviously have learned a lot. But as some have said, the lessons not over. Based on what’s happened so far, the whites and Maine have the potential to Really kick his butt. And that’s if he Doesn’t have bad weather. The other big thought is, it just seems like a bad idea to have so much sponsorship and attention. He kind of lost me with the massage table at the trailhead. I mean, maybe they were doing trail magic and massaging all the they hikers that cr by. But short of that, it seems a bit over the top. Like when cruise ship tourists flood off the boat and try to pay with US dollars in Rome. It’s a lack of awareness. If you’re gonna do the massage thing, at least do it discreetly. But that’s not what Structural elements wants. Also, it’s probably not the best idea to have a film crew out there documenting everything. Maybe they’re documenting the journey regardless of success but I have a feeling there are some folks at road ID who are bummed and surprised that things are going the way they are. Maybe I’m wrong, but I’m just skeptical of corporations, even (gasp) in the outdoor Industry. such is the nature of big time sponsorships. The companies and publicists have probably never set foot on the trail and it’s in their dna to milk it all. I just think a better balance can be struck between inspiring folks in Cincinnati or wherever and approaching the trail and the trail community with the respect it deserves. None of these guys are bad people. Quite the opposite. (Well, maybe not Karl. 🙂) just kidding. I love Karl and have a Ton of respect for the way he came back til he set the record. And for how real he is across the board. But I do think the dust should have settled by now. Guys and gals going after the record have tons of resources for learning about the trail and for approaching it- and the record- with a lot more humility. I hope Harvey has a great rest of his run/hike. He’s an Amazing athlete (and probably person) and it’s been neat to see how many people he’s inspired.

[Odd Man Out]

I wonder if last night maybe was an example of how relying on road crossings for overnight stops is problematic. From his tracker, it looks like he reached VT9 around 7:30 PM last night. After that, the map shows 20.6 miles without a road crossing. On previous days he had kept going well beyond 7:30, but I'm guessing he had to stop "early" since he didn't have enough time to make it to the next road crossing and as a result, only put in 33 miles yesterday bringing his current deficit to almost 80 miles over Stringbean's pace. It looks like he maybe has tried to make up for some of that by getting an early 4:30 AM start today.

On the other hand, possibly his low mile days are due in part to some physical problems. Based on today's track, he has been moving constantly from 4:30 AM until now. He got to the next road (the Forest Service road) a little after 12:30 PM, which in the data set I have is 20.6 miles from VT9. So that is 20.6 miles in 8 hours which is about 2.6 MPH. I've not hiked in VT, but the topo maps suggest this section isn't overly difficult by AT standards. Doesn't that seem slow for a world class trail runner moving continuously?

[greatexpectations]

On the other hand, possibly his low mile days are due in part to some physical problems. Based on today's track, he has been moving constantly from 4:30 AM until now. He got to the next road (the Forest Service road) a little after 12:30 PM, which in the data set I have is 20.6 miles from VT9. So that is 20.6 miles in 8 hours which is about 2.6 MPH. I've not hiked in VT, but the topo maps suggest this section isn't overly difficult by AT standards. Doesn't that seem slow for a world class trail runner moving continuously?

it is very possible he is fading, but some credit needs to be given to the weather. today is probably the coolest it has been in the northeast since friday, and it looks like it is still 88F with 60% humidity where harvey is now. the heat could be catching up to him a bit too.

[MuddyWaters]

I wonder if last night maybe was an example of how relying on road crossings for overnight stops is problematic. From his tracker, it looks like he reached VT9 around 7:30 PM last night. After that, the map shows 20.6 miles without a road crossing. On previous days he had kept going well beyond 7:30, but I'm guessing he had to stop "early" since he didn't have enough time to make it to the next road crossing and as a result, only put in 33 miles yesterday bringing his current deficit to almost 80 miles over Stringbean's pace. It looks like he maybe has tried to make up for some of that by getting an early 4:30 AM start today.



For a serious supported attempt, I can't see how somebody wouldn't have a crew that would be willing to pack in whatever is needed for them to spend the night in whatever location needed.

In fact, when I played a support role in a fkt once, we had pre-set up camps hiked in for the runner. Many miles from the nearest roads.

Even though this was a corporate sponsored runner , everyone was still volunteers except the coordinator. Basically friends of the runner. The amount of money the corporate sponsor donated was pretty pathetic. Not even a sat phone to coordinate things, which caused a lot of problems due to lack of cell service . Especially when the spot trackers failed. And nobody knew if the runner was still on the attempt or not and they were out camp somewhere without cell service to find out. Using groupies led the people that abandon their post.

And that probably is the rub. You can get enough people together to string out a few hundred miles. A few thousand gets harder without paying them, or having a lot of jobless friends.

[Slo-go'en]

it is very possible he is fading, but some credit needs to be given to the weather. today is probably the coolest it has been in the northeast since friday, and it looks like it is still 88F with 60% humidity where harvey is now. the heat could be catching up to him a bit too.

It's a pretty good climb out of Rt9 - 1000 feet in 1.5 miles, most if it in the first 0.8. A net gain of 2200 feet by the time one gets to Glastenbury, with a few 500 foot dips in between. Not horrifically difficult, but in 90 degree heat and high humidity it can be. It's been brutally hot for a week or more now, with little relief in sight. Maybe after Thursday's thunderstorms it will cool down a little. It's amazing he's still on his feet.

[capehiker]

I wonder if last night maybe was an example of how relying on road crossings for overnight stops is problematic. From his tracker, it looks like he reached VT9 around 7:30 PM last night. After that, the map shows 20.6 miles without a road crossing. On previous days he had kept going well beyond 7:30, but I'm guessing he had to stop "early" since he didn't have enough time to make it to the next road crossing and as a result, only put in 33 miles yesterday bringing his current deficit to almost 80 miles over Stringbean's pace. It looks like he maybe has tried to make up for some of that by getting an early 4:30 AM start today.

This is an important aspect to think about for future attempts. At first, it sounds almost impossible for Stringbean to have set two FKT's (despite his long distance resume), but when he is carrying his shelter on his back, he can stop whenever he wants.

What Harvey's team should've done was if they get to a road crossing early but the next one is too far, the support crew should've went to the next crossing and hiked towards him until they met. Then camp. I know, I know. I'm backseat quarterbacking. It may also explain why a few days back he had 40 miles done by 4pm and only ended with 47 miles for the day.

[Crushed Grapes]

What Harvey's team should've done was if they get to a road crossing early but the next one is too far, the support crew should've went to the next crossing and hiked towards him until they met. Then camp.
That's what I've been thinking all day. With such a strong crew, seems like he could have prepped and approached this much better. More power to Harvey, regardless. He's doing (and attempted) something I'll never be able to do.

[TrailRunnerGuy]

The other big thought is, it just seems like a bad idea to have so much sponsorship and attention. He kind of lost me with the massage table at the trailhead. I mean, maybe they were doing trail magic and massaging all the they hikers that cr by. But short of that, it seems a bit over the top. Like when cruise ship tourists flood off the boat and try to pay with US dollars in Rome. It’s a lack of awareness. If you’re gonna do the massage thing, at least do it discreetly. But that’s not what Structural elements wants. Also, it’s probably not the best idea to have a film crew out there documenting everything. Maybe they’re documenting the journey regardless of success but I have a feeling there are some folks at road ID who are bummed and surprised that things are going the way they are. Maybe I’m wrong, but I’m just skeptical of corporations, even (gasp) in the outdoor Industry. such is the nature of big time sponsorships.

Hi Brew, I can't and wouldn't argue with a lot of your points. I just want to comment on a couple things I personally saw during the week I spent crewing and pacing. I only met Harvey once briefly last year before this, just someone who volunteered and wound up staying for most of a week. Just making clear this is a personal response, not coming from Harvey's team, or in any way representing them.

I was there for the first personal massage therapist time. The guy is a personal friend of Harvey's, a running friend, who came out to support him. Maybe it was also part of a sponsorship, I really don't know, but I do know he is a guy that Harvey trusts, and it wasn't a publicity stunt. It happens that Harvey was having serious tendinitis issues when he arrived, so the guy set up a table (actually Harvey's sleeping cot, I think) at the first trail crossing they could catch him and get him back on trail ASAP. This was not a relaxing massage, it was targeted at the specific problem area. It worked well and turned Harvey's day around. Maybe you take issue with the pictures. Oh well. It was part of the trek and one of the crew happened to get some pictures and maybe video. It was really kind of neat, I was in the truck with him racing up a mountain road to catch him, and the therapist was quizzing the person who had run with him earlier that day about exactly how he looked, so he could have a plan on what to focus on and limit time on the cot.

The film crew is not documenting everything. As I understand it, they were out for a day at the start, and the next time was for a couple days while Harvey was in SNP. I don't know what other plans they have and if they've changed with the status of his trek. It was never their plan to be there every day. The short daily video you see is Harvey on his phone. He said he just likes doing it, and it's a brief distraction, once a day for about two minutes. There's a GoPro that's been getting some use. I was never asked to wear it when I was running with him but I know a couple others did take it out.

I also met the RoadID rep, who as I understand it, is also a friend of Harvey's. He's also only been out with him a limited amount of time. Very supportive, even while Harvey was going through a very rough patch, and I saw no interference or demands for him to do more. I can't say anything about how he and the company are viewing the trek now because I'm out of the picture, but I'd be surprised if they aren't still supportive of him finishing, record or not.

So that's my picture. I see an amazing athlete and person going after a very hardy record, which hasn't been lowered that much since Jen did it in 2011. It's been mainly Harvey and his dad, with other friends and random people coming out to help support, and not really a commercial venture, though it's more of one than you and Jen had. I don't know that he'll be writing a book on it though. I would agree he was a little unprepared for some things. If it were me, I'd scope out every road crossing in advance and over-plan every day, and probably decide it's impossible even if I were that caliber of an athlete. Hike your own hike applies to the prep too. I think most everyone would agree that the record is out of reach now, but yet Harvey is still out there every day, making his way to Maine.

Too bad your message didn't get through earlier. It happens you and Jen just spent time in CO with a mutual friend from Cville. She probably agrees more with you than me, but at least she would've (probably) told you I'm not totally full of it!

Bob

[TravisRex]

Excellent discussion, and I'm enjoying reading all the passionate, well-thought out responses (and trying to give my own kinda-thought out responses). Having been involved with this effort since the planning stages, I agree that there were some planning decisions that the team would love to do differently, and I'll be curious to see if Harvey decides to give this another go in the future.

- The road crossings have been a pain to deal with, including yesterday's decision between 33 and 55 miles, which yes, finally put out the last few embers of a FKT being possible. I realize some of the posts may make it seem like a small army of volunteer crew members, but I was recently looking at the schedule from Day 1 and there was an entire week long section where the only confirmed crew member was his 78-year old father. A lot of the people who have made it down to crew have been spur of the moment decisions - like Bob, or Pete Kostelnick who suddenly was available for five days.

- For better or worse, Harvey went into this intending to sleep in the van most nights and certainly could have spent more time figuring out camping/back-country gear and prioritizing the ability to go xx miles past a road crossing instead of stopping right there. For him the trade-off of comfort won over additional miles. It's a slippery slope once you start getting behind on time/miles/calories/sleep and trying to figure out how to fight your way back. One of the impressive stats was between Day 20 and Day 25, Harvey closed the gap on Stringbean from 41.8 miles behind to 12.6 miles behind averaging 54.55 miles across those days.

- I won't comment on the sponsorship amount (mostly because I don't know the exact details of it) but I do know it's not a huge sum nor was it tied to this attempt specifically. RoadiD is a company based in Covington KY, just across the Ohio River and considered part of the Greater Cincinnati area. Mike's decision to get involved with Harvey was primarily driven by the desire to support a local, world-class athlete, and the sponsorship of Harvey will continue with this year's Badwater race (again, I don't have the exact details of how long the sponsorship will continue, but I know Newton and Clif have supported Harvey since at least 2014, so I would expect this will not be a 1-year deal). But the vast majority of sponsorships aren't huge cash amounts. It's more "Hey if you wear our shirt in some pictures and tag us in some posts, we'll give you a few <insert product here>." For Badwater, he was able to provide a free pair of Newton's for each crew member, but we weren't exactly dining out on the company expense account.

- I can understand the push-back to the publicity, whether video, book, or social media. "Made to be broken" recently showed up on Facebook documenting Karl's run, and North was published earlier this year. Part of publicizing these attempts (besides yes, eyeballs for sponsors) is to share the "story behind the story." We made a decision to be open and document as much as we could - partially because we all think it's interesting and exciting to see. Even if I remove myself from the team, I would still be excited to be able to read multiple posts a day about the attempt, or see a short video that Harvey is taking along the trail. But that's me. I can see how others may roll their eyes or find it annoying or a distraction. What you've seen from Harvey and the team is really how Harvey is - open, affable, honest. We talked about not including a link to the spot tracker, or delaying it a day, but that's not who we are or who Harvey is. Harvey loves connecting to people and sharing adventures.

- As far as the other crew members, all of us our giving our time for this. Tracey, who coordinates the posts on Facebook and elsewhere on social media. Matt, Louis, and myself working with logistics, planning, whatever else we can. Harvey asked early on if I would be able to come out "for a week or two," but "real life" prevented that from being an option. Having a dedicated, active crew who are there for extended periods of time would go a big way towards making future record attempts possible.

- I'll admit we didn't reach out to many people during the planning of this, and it's one of the things in retrospect I wish we would have done differently. Additionally, we've focused much of our attention on the NOBO record holders, which meant that Joey, Karl, and JPD didn't get nearly as many mentions in the things that we were posting. It wasn't because JPD was a "walker" or for any other reason than it was simple logistics. It's easier to say "Harvey is xx miles behind Stringbean" on day 3 because they were going the same direction.

- I'm extremely curious to see the reaction to Karel Sabbe's upcoming attempt - an extremely accomplished athlete yet with the same lack of knowledge (at least as far I can tell).

- The FKT dream is over for Harvey. We've put together a couple of additional schedules that will get him to the finish, but well after the needed time. As I noted above, we'll see if there is a second attempt made in the future.

[TravisRex]

And just to be clear, there have been no shortage of moments when I've thrown up my hands in disgust with this attempt and some of the decisions that were made.

[Slo-go'en]

It's interesting to note that most of the AT FKT setters were long distance hikers first and foremost, not ultra maraton runners.

[Violent Green]

It's interesting to note that most of the AT FKT setters were long distance hikers first and foremost, not ultra maraton runners.

A couple reasons for that, I think. Firstly, ultramarathon running is a reasonably young sport. It's only become somewhat mainstream in the last 10-15 years.

Secondly, and probably most importantly, the ultramarathon culture in the US is decidedly a Western thing. Hardrock, Western States, Leadville, etc. Jurek doing the AT gave it some publicity, I think.

Rest assured, the days of long distance hikers setting AT FKTs are over. We're not even seeing the elite ultra runners attempting these (no offense to anyone). The only FKT set by an elite was Francois D'Haene who utterly murdered the previous JMT record.

[fiddlehead]

It's been a real pleasure following this attempt and the up to date thoughts and preparations from TravisRex
Thanks!

[brew]

I'll respond to Bob, TravisRex, and Violent Green all in one post. :) I don't know anything about Structural Elements and it's nice to hear that Road ID is a local company to Cincy. I just think there's a way to do things AFTER the fact to minimize the visual and social impact on the trail. The term "hike your own hike" gets used a lot in the trail community and I'm a staunch defender of it because of course my wife hiked the AT in a VERY unique way. I just think if your hike encroaches on the experience of others, it's detrimental to the trail and some of the positive vibe that's being generated on social media and back in Cincy is being negated by a thru hiker or day hiker rolling their eyes and thinking "good grief." As for the documentary stuff, the AT has a "no drone" policy and commercial use permits are required and someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think that has been universally ignored by all of these film crews and sponsors making promotional videos. I'm not saying it's done intentionally but ignorance isn't an excuse. For the record, I LOVE Harvey's personal morning videos. And I certainly get focusing on the NOBO splits more than the SOBO and appreciate what y'all are saying about wishing you would have done more recon. Violent Green, I don't really agree with your statement. One because it's sort of dismissive of hikers when the reality is Jen "hiked" 3-3.5 miles consistently when Harvey and Scott "ran" 2.5 or less at times, especially Scott through the Whites. I'm not really sure how String Bean would define himself but I'd call him a hybrid and I think that's the category best suited for these particular FKTs. Certainly the young, elite runners (I'd but String Bean in that category) have fresh legs and are hungry. But most of them are not used to being uncomfortable for more than a hundred miler. I'd love to see Kilian or Jim Walmsley go after the A.T. next year (I'd beg Jen to let me support either one of them) and I think they have the TALENT to shave significant time off. But I'm not sure how they'd handle the grind and logistics are huge, too. 20-30 mile stretches between roads necessitate your being comfortable sleeping on the trial. How would those guys do with that? I don't think Harvey, Karl, or Scott liked it very much, whereas thru hikers embrace it. I think somebody like Jared Campbell or some of the other Barkley finishers are better suited for the long distance FKTs than guys and gals used to showering after they crush a hundred in 15 hours. Matt Kirk, are you out there? What do you think? Or if Karl can figure out his password, maybe he can chime in. :) One other thing... the heat Harvey had this week sucked, but Jen had several 100+ days in Maryland and got hypothermia from a sleet storm on Franconia Ridge, Scott got soaked in Vermont and Andrew Thompson literally got blown off a mountain on one his attempts. Everybody has weather and everybody has injuries. It's part of it. Having said all that, I like whoever used the word "affable" to describe Harvey. He really does seem like a great guy and I hope to meet him some day.

[chknfngrs]

Finishing the trail knowing a failed FKT is imminent speaks volumes about Harvey and that he didn’t quit or get off trail

[TravisRex]

Rest assured, the days of long distance hikers setting AT FKTs are over. We're not even seeing the elite ultra runners attempting these (no offense to anyone). The only FKT set by an elite was Francois D'Haene who utterly murdered the previous JMT record.

As an ultrarunner myself, I don't agree with this. Ultrarunners are suited to going quickly across a single day (or two day) event. Being able to grind out 50+ mile days for over a month is such a different skill set regardless of how fast you're moving. 50 miles is 50 miles no matter how fast you're going.

Harvey competed in the Marathon des Sables (a 6 day, 250 km stage race across the Sahara) a few years back and had a great day on day 1 and a pretty solid day 2 and was near the top 10 (7th and 11th I think? I don't have the stats in front of me and I'm too lazy to go find them). But he couldn't recover after day 3 and struggled the remaining days. That same year, a multiple time winner of MDS came out to run Badwater and ended up dropping fairly early on. The skills that make you an elite in one arena don't transfer over to another.

Without opening a can of worms too much, it's the same reason why you don't see Kenyans dominating ultramarathons including road ultras like JFK 50. There are other reasons (lack of prize money for instance) but it's a different skill set to run for 15 hours than being able to run supremely fast for 2 hours.

Runners only have a speed advantage when the terrain supports running. After that, everyone is a hiker.

[TravisRex]

Brew - totally understand where you're coming from. We had the wife of a thru-hiker leave a comment on Facebook chastising the crew for the fact that they had a table set up near the can spread with food for Harvey as her husband came hiking through and was extremely disappointed that the crew didn't offer him anything. She later left another comment that when Harvey caught up to her husband, he was impressed that Harvey slowed and walked with him for a mile or so asking questions about how his hike was going, his life back home, and other topics.

The first comment made me cringe a bit - I can only imagine what a full table of food must look like to a thru hiker in PA. And I don't know if the crew has been offering food, water, or supplies on a regular basis (I do know there was a hiker who got some anti-chafe stuff at one point). I like to think that they are.

At Badwater one year, late in the race Harvey was running near a guy whose crew had run out of ice, not something you want to see in the desert. Harvey asked us to pull up to his crew as soon as we could and give them as much ice as we could spare. Harvey and Dan were battling for 2nd place at the time, but the competition was less important than helping another runner out.

So I like to believe the crew is helping when they can, and not making a big production of massage tables or full food tables. And hopefully they are doing what they can to make the time on the trail a positive experience for everyone, not just one runner.

[Odd Man Out]

A couple reasons for that, I think. Firstly, ultramarathon running is a reasonably young sport. It's only become somewhat mainstream in the last 10-15 years.

Secondly, and probably most importantly, the ultramarathon culture in the US is decidedly a Western thing. Hardrock, Western States, Leadville, etc. Jurek doing the AT gave it some publicity, I think.

Rest assured, the days of long distance hikers setting AT FKTs are over. We're not even seeing the elite ultra runners attempting these (no offense to anyone). The only FKT set by an elite was Francois D'Haene who utterly murdered the previous JMT record.

I'm not an ultra marathon runner. I'm not even a runner. I barely qualify as a hiker. As a biochemistry professor, I am interested in the biochemistry of energy transduction. I'm also a bit of a number and map geek (hence the spreadsheets). However I just don't see this. Based on what I've seen, the mistake that ultramarathoners have made is to assume they can extrapolate what they do in a day or a 210 mile trail (e.g. JMT) to one that is 10 times longer and probably more rugged. I recall a few comments by people who said something along the lines of "The FKT for the AT is less than 50 MPD - Heck I can do that". And they can, for several days.


Finishing the trail knowing a failed FKT is imminent speaks volumes about Harvey and that he didn’t quit or get off trail

I agree. As I recall, the FKT web site includes notable hikes that were not FKTs. I appreciate that.

BTW, As of this morning, Harvey's deficit is 89 miles over Stringbean. He is approaching a two day deficit. He finished day 35 only 16 miles ahead of where Stringbean finished day 33.

[TrailRunnerGuy]

I can only imagine what a full table of food must look like to a thru hiker in PA. And I don't know if the crew has been offering food, water, or supplies on a regular basis (I do know there was a hiker who got some anti-chafe stuff at one point). I like to think that they are.



That was a tricky thing, because it sure looked like a trail angel setup, but giving out Harvey's supplies meant his were drained more, so that meant more trips into unfamiliar towns for the crew, and less rest. A trail angel might come out a few weekend days, but isn't out there 45+ days in a row treating any hiker than came through. I brought all my own food and drink with me so that I wouldn't deplete his supplies. Once in awhile I was offered something like oatmeal, and accepted, and some of my own supplies were used for Harvey in return.

What I did was to greet any approaching hiker with a "Hi, how are ya? We're supporting a guy who's going for the speed record, maybe you've heard of Harvey?" leaving it unsaid that we were not trail angels. It wasn't my stuff to give out so I never offered. If they kept sniffing around, I walked away and let his dad handle it. I know that some hikers got stuff. If someone was hurting they weren't getting turned away. But it's just not realistic to expect the crew to support Harvey AND be trail angels every day. While Harvey was on the trail, the crew was resting, getting more supplies, cleaning up , and setting up for his next time in, not also serving other people. I'm sure it was disappointing to some hikers. Not sure how to better handle it without putting a lot more stress on the crew, namely Harvey's dad.

[Violent Green]

As an ultrarunner myself, I don't agree with this. Ultrarunners are suited to going quickly across a single day (or two day) event. Being able to grind out 50+ mile days for over a month is such a different skill set regardless of how fast you're moving. 50 miles is 50 miles no matter how fast you're going.

Harvey competed in the Marathon des Sables (a 6 day, 250 km stage race across the Sahara) a few years back and had a great day on day 1 and a pretty solid day 2 and was near the top 10 (7th and 11th I think? I don't have the stats in front of me and I'm too lazy to go find them). But he couldn't recover after day 3 and struggled the remaining days. That same year, a multiple time winner of MDS came out to run Badwater and ended up dropping fairly early on. The skills that make you an elite in one arena don't transfer over to another.

Without opening a can of worms too much, it's the same reason why you don't see Kenyans dominating ultramarathons including road ultras like JFK 50. There are other reasons (lack of prize money for instance) but it's a different skill set to run for 15 hours than being able to run supremely fast for 2 hours.

Runners only have a speed advantage when the terrain supports running. After that, everyone is a hiker.

As an ultrarunner myself, I don't agree. The old line used to be that Western runners would never hold an AT FKT. All that running wouldn't transfer to the trail. Terrain is too tough. How many ultra runners have held the FKT now? 4 or 5?

Everyone is going to power hike the hills at 3-3.5mph. It's the other 60% of the trail(plus better logistics and planning eventually) where runners are going to start pushing out the FKT even further. I mean, we're already to the point where solely hiking it at 3mph will require, what, nearly 17 hours per day of movement? We're going to see more and more running. No way around it.

[Violent Green]

I'll respond to Bob, TravisRex, and Violent Green all in one post. :) I don't know anything about Structural Elements and it's nice to hear that Road ID is a local company to Cincy. I just think there's a way to do things AFTER the fact to minimize the visual and social impact on the trail. The term "hike your own hike" gets used a lot in the trail community and I'm a staunch defender of it because of course my wife hiked the AT in a VERY unique way. I just think if your hike encroaches on the experience of others, it's detrimental to the trail and some of the positive vibe that's being generated on social media and back in Cincy is being negated by a thru hiker or day hiker rolling their eyes and thinking "good grief." As for the documentary stuff, the AT has a "no drone" policy and commercial use permits are required and someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think that has been universally ignored by all of these film crews and sponsors making promotional videos. I'm not saying it's done intentionally but ignorance isn't an excuse. For the record, I LOVE Harvey's personal morning videos. And I certainly get focusing on the NOBO splits more than the SOBO and appreciate what y'all are saying about wishing you would have done more recon. Violent Green, I don't really agree with your statement. One because it's sort of dismissive of hikers when the reality is Jen "hiked" 3-3.5 miles consistently when Harvey and Scott "ran" 2.5 or less at times, especially Scott through the Whites. I'm not really sure how String Bean would define himself but I'd call him a hybrid and I think that's the category best suited for these particular FKTs. Certainly the young, elite runners (I'd but String Bean in that category) have fresh legs and are hungry. But most of them are not used to being uncomfortable for more than a hundred miler. I'd love to see Kilian or Jim Walmsley go after the A.T. next year (I'd beg Jen to let me support either one of them) and I think they have the TALENT to shave significant time off. But I'm not sure how they'd handle the grind and logistics are huge, too. 20-30 mile stretches between roads necessitate your being comfortable sleeping on the trial. How would those guys do with that? I don't think Harvey, Karl, or Scott liked it very much, whereas thru hikers embrace it. I think somebody like Jared Campbell or some of the other Barkley finishers are better suited for the long distance FKTs than guys and gals used to showering after they crush a hundred in 15 hours.

Jared Campbell - You mean the winner at Hardrock 100 a few years ago? You're kinda proving my point for me, Brew. :)

Not trying to be dismissive of Jen or other "hikers" at all. If anything it goes to show how important logistics and planning are to an AT FKT. Scott's FKT seemed pretty poorly planned(compared to Jen's - kudos) and he still managed to eek out the FKT. Where would he have finished if the planning was on point?

Ultimately, there are only 24 hours in a day. All other factors the same, it's going to take more and more speed. Some runners won't have the mental aspect of it, but some will.

PS - Love the book!

[MrClahn]

Not to belittle the man, but Jared's Hardrock finish time was over 27 hours, 4 hours behind today's winners, and it was the fastest of all his finishes. He's not elite in the conventional super fast way that would have him topping the podiums. Which I think is what Brew was referring too.

A 16/7 hour day, at a 3.5mph hiking pace isn't out the realms of possibility. Especially supported carrying minimal gear. So the potential to average mid 50 mile days walking is there, still a ways above the average mileage of current fkts.

[Violent Green]

Not to belittle the man, but Jared's Hardrock finish time was over 27 hours, 4 hours behind today's winners, and it was the fastest of all his finishes. He's not elite in the conventional super fast way that would have him topping the podiums. Which I think is what Brew was referring too.

A 16/7 hour day, at a 3.5mph hiking pace isn't out the realms of possibility. Especially supported carrying minimal gear. So the potential to average mid 50 mile days walking is there, still a ways above the average mileage of current fkts.

What did JPD, Karl and Jurek average? 3mph or slightly less? If you want to average 3.5mph, 15% faster, for 6 weeks, you're going to need to do some running IMO. Let's just revisit in 5 years and see where it's at. I could always be wrong.

[Violent Green]

Not to belittle the man, but Jared's Hardrock finish time was over 27 hours, 4 hours behind today's winners, and it was the fastest of all his finishes. He's not elite in the conventional super fast way that would have him topping the podiums. Which I think is what Brew was referring too.

PS - It's tough to compare years, but Jared's 2010 time would have put him 6th in 2017's race. About 2.5 hours behind Killian's 1st place finish. Jared was/is a very good runner. I will grant you that he favors climbing races.

[MrClahn]

Well, from personal experience I hiked the CDT in 85 days (route was approx 2850 miles), with 17 zeros. 13 of those were spent in hospital or resting after getting rocky Mountain spotted fever. Which meant on moving days I averaged over 40mpd on what was just a casual (ie non fkt) hike. And whilst I broke camp in about 10 minutes in the mornings, I'd usually spent an hour and a half plus in camp in the evenings, and slept as much as my body wanted.

There's also much "stronger" hikers than me. It's just whether they have the desire to it.

[MuddyWaters]

Being an ultra runner just means your in top fitness.
Not even top ultra runners necessarilly succeed

I met 3 time woman Hardrock champ Darcy Afrika in sierra when she was bailing on a stealth jmt fkt fkt attempt. She was already behind after just 2 days .

And stringbean blew everyone away.

[brew]

I'm still pretty young so I'm not familiar with the "old line" about western runners never holding the AT FKT. :) I do think every guy that's gone out to "run" the AT has had a rude awakening in some way or another. I don't remember Karl having a tracker where you could calculate his splits but Scott averaged less than 2 mph through the Whites and I think around 2.5 through most of Maine. He was going a LOT slower than Jen in those stretches. I think Harvey's been 2-2.5 mph the past week or so. I don't disagree that they can't run bigger stretches of the Mid-Atlantic but I'm just not convinced that that's enough to overcome their lack of comfort sleeping on the trail, first hand knowledge and their seeming inability to handle the really tough "unrunnable" terrain well. I guess when I say "hiker" I don't just mean the speed at which their traveling, but that other stuff, too, and that's why I think it would need to be a hybrid thing.

[brew]

Glad you like the book! I need to get a copy. Just kidding.

I agree logistics and planning are huge. Following with the "hiker" definition in my other post, I'd argue that hikers will ALWAYS have an advantage in the logistics/planning area. Karl did all sorts of recon before his third attempt but still chose to sleep exclusively at roads and I think that was a pretty big handicap.

As for Jared, yeah he won Hardrock but I'm not sure I'd ever put him in the elite "trail runner" category of guys that win Western States. To me Hardrock's a lot more of a "hybrid" race like Barkley.

It's worth mentioning that Jen's an ultra runner, too. She just realized she while recovering from shin splints that she could get her miles without having to run and it took a lot less of a toll on her body. Horton kept egging her on to run and she wouldn't do it.

I'd love to know how much of the trail Joe ran versus hiked, but regardless I'd argue that he's as much of a long-distance hiker as an elite trail runner. The fact that he was self-supported and slept on the trail points to that.


Jared Campbell - You mean the winner at Hardrock 100 a few years ago? You're kinda proving my point for me, Brew. :)

Not trying to be dismissive of Jen or other "hikers" at all. If anything it goes to show how important logistics and planning are to an AT FKT. Scott's FKT seemed pretty poorly planned(compared to Jen's - kudos) and he still managed to eek out the FKT. Where would he have finished if the planning was on point?

Ultimately, there are only 24 hours in a day. All other factors the same, it's going to take more and more speed. Some runners won't have the mental aspect of it, but some will.

PS - Love the book!

[Violent Green]

Well, from personal experience I hiked the CDT in 85 days (route was approx 2850 miles), with 17 zeros. 13 of those were spent in hospital or resting after getting rocky Mountain spotted fever. Which meant on moving days I averaged over 40mpd on what was just a casual (ie non fkt) hike. And whilst I broke camp in about 10 minutes in the mornings, I'd usually spent an hour and a half plus in camp in the evenings, and slept as much as my body wanted.

There's also much "stronger" hikers than me. It's just whether they have the desire to it.

Congrats on a nice hike. 42mpd is anything but a casual hike to 99.9% of hikers though. There aren't many cranking out that amount of mileage over an entire thru. Swami probably.

[MrClahn]

Pressed sent to early whilst editing that.
John Z, Heathery, and Joey camps would be the names you might know. But there's enough others. Treeboo, and another English guy named Ben on the CDT both hiked it in under 3 months I think. Candlemaker finished in a little over 100 days, but started in March, going thru a cold and snowy colorado/wyoming in April and may. Twinkletoes, and another guy (whose name Ive forgot) on the AT in 16 went under 80 and 70 days.

And that's just people I met in my two thru hikes. I have no doubt there's a bunch of people who just like to walk all day. A few of whom if properly motivated could probably set, or at least put in a good challenge, on some of these long fkts.

[Violent Green]

I agree logistics and planning are huge. Following with the "hiker" definition in my other post, I'd argue that hikers will ALWAYS have an advantage in the logistics/planning area. Karl did all sorts of recon before his third attempt but still chose to sleep exclusively at roads and I think that was a pretty big handicap.

As for Jared, yeah he won Hardrock but I'm not sure I'd ever put him in the elite "trail runner" category of guys that win Western States. To me Hardrock's a lot more of a "hybrid" race like Barkley.

I'd love to know how much of the trail Joe ran versus hiked, but regardless I'd argue that he's as much of a long-distance hiker as an elite trail runner. The fact that he was self-supported and slept on the trail points to that.

There's no reason a runner couldn't have his crew setup on the trail similar to how you guys did. Right? It's just more difficult. If someone chooses to sleep only at roads, my guess is it's because they think they can get the record regardless.

Meh. The Barkley and Hardrock are pretty darn dissimilar in my book. The Barkley is an adventure race with 80% off trail bushwhacking which is why so few elite runners do it. UTMB is the world's most popular trail race and it has more gain than Hardrock. Each to their own definition of course.

According to Joe, he ran the downs, flats and some of the ups. If I remember correctly he finished several 50mi days in 11-12 hours. To me, thats a runner, but we would just be arguing semantics at that point.

But anyway, I don't want to take us too far off course from Harvey's great hike/run. It's all hypothetical. Time will tell. Nice discussion everyone!

[Violent Green]

Pressed sent to early whilst editing that.
John Z, Heathery, and Joey camps would be the names you might know. But there's enough others. Treeboo, and another English guy named Ben on the CDT both hiked it in under 3 months I think. Candlemaker finished in a little over 100 days, but started in March, going thru a cold and snowy colorado/wyoming in April and may. Twinkletoes, and another guy (whose name Ive forgot) on the AT in 16 went under 80 and 70 days.

And that's just people I met in my two thru hikes. I have no doubt there's a bunch of people who just like to walk all day. A few of whom if properly motivated could probably set, or at least put in a good challenge, on some of these long fkts.

I do know Heather, Joey and John Z. All strong hikers, and I know there are more of them out there. Swami, Trauma, etc. Until they get the motivation though, we're going to have to watch these ultrarunners make their attempts. Karel Sabbe's up next this month.

[capehiker]

John Z could never set an FKT on the AT in any category. He doesn’t like the AT and he doesn’t respect it. It’s a trail that he treats as beneath him. He’s a west coast hiker through and through.

[chknfngrs]

John Z could never set an FKT on the AT in any category. He doesn’t like the AT and he doesn’t respect it. It’s a trail that he treats as beneath him. He’s a west coast hiker through and through.

I think you should clarify that statement and say would never because he most certainly could but as you said and I agree he does not particularly care a profuse amount for the AT

[brew]

Maybe it's 50/50 but I still lean toward Hardrock being more like Barkley than a traditional 100 miler. The cutoffs and elevation change, plus the fact that a guy like Jared won it, tells me it leans that way. But yeah, we're getting into semantics with whether Jared's a trail runner or a hybrid, and which category Joe fell int.

As for runners sleeping on the trail, of course they could but they haven't yet. At least not on purpose. Or well. There's also no reason a hiker couldn't run parts of the Mid-Atlantic. I just think the best formula is to do both (be a hybrid) and I don't think most of the fastest trail runners are willing to do that. To bring it back to Harvey, it sounds like his worst nights of sleep were on the trail and until runners adapt in that way they're not maximizing their potential.

It'll be fun to see what Karel does. Anybody know when he's starting? Or which way he's going? That's a whole nother issue, but the NOBO vs. SOBO thing is interesting.


There's no reason a runner couldn't have his crew setup on the trail similar to how you guys did. Right? It's just more difficult. If someone chooses to sleep only at roads, my guess is it's because they think they can get the record regardless.

Meh. The Barkley and Hardrock are pretty darn dissimilar in my book. The Barkley is an adventure race with 80% off trail bushwhacking which is why so few elite runners do it. UTMB is the world's most popular trail race and it has more gain than Hardrock. Each to their own definition of course.

According to Joe, he ran the downs, flats and some of the ups. If I remember correctly he finished several 50mi days in 11-12 hours. To me, thats a runner, but we would just be arguing semantics at that point.

But anyway, I don't want to take us too far off course from Harvey's great hike/run. It's all hypothetical. Time will tell. Nice discussion everyone!

[TravisRex]

I really like the use of the word "hiker" as a mindset rather than describing a speed of travel.

If we're frankensteining a best possible FKT attempt it would be someone capable of running the "flats," has considerable knowledge of the trail, comfortable sleeping in the backcountry, and ideally supported with several full-time crew members who allow the FKT'er to travel as light as possible. And extremely durable.

When we were planning for Harvey, I was advocating for spending 1 night out of 5 out on the trail. Karl obviously made it work with his van stops, but Harvey had 2 days in the first couple of weeks where he booked under 40 miles due to how the road crossings played out (like ending with 39.4 miles on Day 11, because it was 17 miles to the next road crossing after VA 16).

Harvey's new goals include looking to get under the time of Andrew Thompson 47d, 13h (which FKT lists as the 5th fastest), Pete Palmer's 48d 20 hr, and just getting in under 50 days. Yesterday was a short day (somewhere around 30 - I haven't done the math yet) after deciding he didn't want to do Killington late in the day. The current plan (well until yesterday) had a new goal target of getting to Abol Bridge Campground Store in 47 days (and however long to do the last 14 miles after that). The short day yesterday will require an updated plan because he'll run into difficulty with road crossings in a few days.

[TravisRex]

It'll be fun to see what Karel does. Anybody know when he's starting? Or which way he's going? That's a whole nother issue, but the NOBO vs. SOBO thing is interesting.

His website says starting July 18th and he appears to be going NOBO based on the information I can find.

[colorado_rob]

John Z could never set an FKT on the AT in any category. He doesn’t like the AT and he doesn’t respect it. It’s a trail that he treats as beneath him. He’s a west coast hiker through and through. That's a bit snarky, I don't think any of us westerners thing the AT is "beneath us", some of us just don't like hiking/trail running in those types of conditions, like hot and humid. I'm a westerner through-and-through (and an ex "ultra runner") and I thoroughly enjoyed hiking the AT, though my feet never touched the trail in the summer (3 months of spring, 1 month of fall). Why on earth would you say something like this about John Z?

[brew]

Yeah, I just saw July 18th on his FB page. Interesting he's going NOBO. Travis Rex and Bob, did Harvey go NOBO because that's what String Bean did or just because? I've always thought the overall was a lot more important than directional but maybe that's changing? I think most in the AT FKT community would say SOBO's easier.
His website says starting July 18th and he appears to be going NOBO based on the information I can find.

[Violent Green]

If we're frankensteining a best possible FKT attempt it would be someone capable of running the "flats," has considerable knowledge of the trail, comfortable sleeping in the backcountry, and ideally supported with several full-time crew members who allow the FKT'er to travel as light as possible. And extremely durable.

100% - On this, I think we all agree. Best of luck to Harvey and crew on a strong finish!

[TravisRex]

Travis Rex and Bob, did Harvey go NOBO because that's what String Bean did or just because?

With Harvey being a teacher, he knew he needed to make his attempt in the summer, and as close to the end of the school year as possible (I think it ended on a Thursday and his original plan was to start on Tuesday). Going NOBO made sense to try to "follow the cool(er) weather" and avoid needing to run through TN in mid-July. With the weather this year being the way that it is - it's currently warmer in Killington VT than it is in Fontana NC - it probably wouldn't have mattered. From a logistic point of view GA was easier to get to (only a 400 mile drive from Cincinnati vs 1200 to Maine).

Harvey never mentioned to me about wanting to go NOBO because Stringbean did, but knowing what I do about how he thinks, I have to imagine it was in the back of his mind at least somewhat of wanting to beat the record on the "same" course. His friend Pete - who set the fastest time on a cross-country run - made a point of following the same route as the previous record holder (San Fran to NYC) and using as many of the same roads as possible.

[Violent Green]

Maybe it's 50/50 but I still lean toward Hardrock being more like Barkley than a traditional 100 miler. The cutoffs and elevation change, plus the fact that a guy like Jared won it, tells me it leans that way. But yeah, we're getting into semantics with whether Jared's a trail runner or a hybrid, and which category Joe fell int.

As for runners sleeping on the trail, of course they could but they haven't yet. At least not on purpose. Or well. There's also no reason a hiker couldn't run parts of the Mid-Atlantic. I just think the best formula is to do both (be a hybrid) and I don't think most of the fastest trail runners are willing to do that. To bring it back to Harvey, it sounds like his worst nights of sleep were on the trail and until runners adapt in that way they're not maximizing their potential.

It'll be fun to see what Karel does. Anybody know when he's starting? Or which way he's going? That's a whole nother issue, but the NOBO vs. SOBO thing is interesting.

Brew - Speaking of the Barkley, you and Jen should come over to Frozen Head this Spring to watch the spectacle. It's an interesting couple days for sure. Of course, I've not been since it's gotten so popular so they may shut half the park down now.

[TrailRunnerGuy]

Brew, I don't know the reason Harvey chose NOBO.




If we're frankensteining a best possible FKT attempt it would be someone capable of running the "flats," has considerable knowledge of the trail, comfortable sleeping in the backcountry, and ideally supported with several full-time crew members who allow the FKT'er to travel as light as possible. And extremely durable.



I was thinking about this too. Maybe a crew setup like Pete Kostelnick's cross country road run FKT, where he had an RV meet then half way each day for a mid-day meal, and then end of day, with an SUV every 1-3 miles to refuel on the go. Logistically that's so much easier on the road than trail, both for opportunities of where to stop and also the consistency of roads over trail, but there's something to the way Pete did 70-73 miles every single day (except for the 0 day on day 7 for the bad tendinitis) that may have been pretty unique. I don't know if that consistency or predictability is at all possible on the AT, for the crew and runner to look at each day of terrain and elevation and say "XX miles for today" and constantly hit it. Alternatively, maybe 2 crews alternating stops, half days, or days, to keep them fresh and more able to hike in supplies, a tent or hammock for sleeping on trail, etc. There's little doubt in my mind that part of the prep for this should be going out for a multi-day run and sleeping on trail at nights, to get used to being able to fall asleep. Only from what I heard, neither Harvey nor Karl did too well when they had to sleep on trail.

[brew]

yep, I agree
100% - On this, I think we all agree. Best of luck to Harvey and crew on a strong finish!

[brew]

We used Andrew Thompson's daily mileage the same way y'all are using String Bean and Scott's. And the alternating thing is what we did in the 100 Mile Wilderness because a bridge was out (we wouldn't have known if Warren hadn't told us). It wouldn't have made a huge difference, but it's an example of having things dialed in. We missed Jen once in NY and caught her at the next possible road. She anticipated that and kept hiking. And she made a wrong turn in the Whites (which still bugs me a little) because she didn't take the map warren offered and the AMC kind of refuses to give the A.T. special treatment (i.e., signage) over other trails in the Whites. But aside from that the whole thing was pretty seamless, which was how it had to be for us to get it and how it's gonna have to be going forward because the margin for error keeps getting smaller. We also had some ridiculous advantages like Warren knowing a side way into some trails for resupplies (one even with the car) and me finding a similar one near Snickers Gap by eyeballing a map. That's what I've always loved about the AT fkt. It's a giant puzzle or rubics cube. You have to have talent but you have to do it smart, too.
Brew, I don't know the reason Harvey chose NOBO.



I was thinking about this too. Maybe a crew setup like Pete Kostelnick's cross country road run FKT, where he had an RV meet then half way each day for a mid-day meal, and then end of day, with an SUV every 1-3 miles to refuel on the go. Logistically that's so much easier on the road than trail, both for opportunities of where to stop and also the consistency of roads over trail, but there's something to the way Pete did 70-73 miles every single day (except for the 0 day on day 7 for the bad tendinitis) that may have been pretty unique. I don't know if that consistency or predictability is at all possible on the AT, for the crew and runner to look at each day of terrain and elevation and say "XX miles for today" and constantly hit it. Alternatively, maybe 2 crews alternating stops, half days, or days, to keep them fresh and more able to hike in supplies, a tent or hammock for sleeping on trail, etc. There's little doubt in my mind that part of the prep for this should be going out for a multi-day run and sleeping on trail at nights, to get used to being able to fall asleep. Only from what I heard, neither Harvey nor Karl did too well when they had to sleep on trail.

[capehiker]

That's a bit snarky, I don't think any of us westerners thing the AT is "beneath us", some of us just don't like hiking/trail running in those types of conditions, like hot and humid. I'm a westerner through-and-through (and an ex "ultra runner") and I thoroughly enjoyed hiking the AT, though my feet never touched the trail in the summer (3 months of spring, 1 month of fall). Why on earth would you say something like this about John Z?

This isn't Tupac vs. Biggie, here. I was saying he prefers west coast trails. I was not saying all west coast hikers hate the east coast trails. I respect his body of work and have nothing but admiration for his aspirations (although I'd wish he listen to his body more). But, it doesn't take a psychologist to analyze his less than enthusiastic attitude towards the AT. That attitude doesn't set FKT's.

[colorado_rob]

This isn't Tupac vs. Biggie, here. I was saying he prefers west coast trails. I was not saying all west coast hikers hate the east coast trails. I respect his body of work and have nothing but admiration for his aspirations (although I'd wish he listen to his body more). But, it doesn't take a psychologist to analyze his less than enthusiastic attitude towards the AT. That attitude doesn't set FKT's.Sure, but you said: "It’s a trail that he treats as beneath him" which was snarky, which was my point. "Less than enthusiastic" is a fair statement, but a far cry from stating that the AT he considers to be "a trail that he treats as beneath him."

[JC13]

Sure, but you said: "It’s a trail that he treats as beneath him" which was snarky, which was my point. "Less than enthusiastic" is a fair statement, but a far cry from stating that the AT he considers to be "a trail that he treats as beneath him."Just throwing in here that from his AT videos, I seem to recall him pretty much saying that he hated the AT and was only continuing to get his triple crown. Take it however you wish, though I was surprised when I saw a video of him and Neemor on the AT earlier this year.

[brew]

I'd love for Jen to try Barkley. But right now we've got a 5 year old and 1 year old so, yeah. :)
Brew - Speaking of the Barkley, you and Jen should come over to Frozen Head this Spring to watch the spectacle. It's an interesting couple days for sure. Of course, I've not been since it's gotten so popular so they may shut half the park down now.

[colorado_rob]

Just throwing in here that from his AT videos, I seem to recall him pretty much saying that he hated the AT and was only continuing to get his triple crown. Take it however you wish, though I was surprised when I saw a video of him and Neemor on the AT earlier this year.Sure, he may "hate" the AT, but he probably doesn't consider the AT to "be beneath him", which implies snobbishness, which I say he doesn't have, which was my only point. Lots of westerners "hate" the AT, for reasons I already stated. In fact, none of my local trail running pals wouldn't consider doing anything ultra out east, even when I tell them they don't know what they are missing.

[Violent Green]

Sure, he may "hate" the AT, but he probably doesn't consider the AT to "be beneath him", which implies snobbishness, which I say he doesn't have, which was my only point. Lots of westerners "hate" the AT, for reasons I already stated. In fact, none of my local trail running pals wouldn't consider doing anything ultra out east, even when I tell them they don't know what they are missing.

After running some in CO and CA, I can kinda understand why they feel that way. I love running here in the East, but I could certainly do without the heat and humidity.

I ran 14.5mi in the Big South Fork yesterday. It was 91F in the shade and 94F in the sun. There was much suffering.

[CalebJ]

I'd love for Jen to try Barkley. But right now we've got a 5 year old and 1 year old so, yeah. :)

I don't know how you found time to record your own album while raising two kids (my 3 year old son takes up nearly all my time it seems like), but I've enjoyed listening to it and reading your wife's book.

[Slo-go'en]

After running some in CO and CA, I can kinda understand why they feel that way. I love running here in the East, but I could certainly do without the heat and humidity.

I ran 14.5mi in the Big South Fork yesterday. It was 91F in the shade and 94F in the sun. There was much suffering.

Between the weather and the rough Treadway, the AT is the ultimate endurance challenge. The fact the trail is so poorly blazed and brushed in NH and Maine to the point you have to wonder if your still on a trail at all adds to the excitement.

[colorado_rob]

Between the weather and the rough Treadway, the AT is the ultimate endurance challenge. That's for sure. Of all the amazing physical feats, I admire the AT endurance racers the most. Second place would have to go to the Barkley participants.... Or maybe the Badwater folks....

[JC13]

Sure, he may "hate" the AT, but he probably doesn't consider the AT to "be beneath him", which implies snobbishness, which I say he doesn't have, which was my only point. Lots of westerners "hate" the AT, for reasons I already stated. In fact, none of my local trail running pals wouldn't consider doing anything ultra out east, even when I tell them they don't know what they are missing.I gotcha, the heat and humidity are no fun.

[ScottS]

If I remember correctly he finished several 50mi days in 11-12 hours

This still blows my mind. Especially when he described his mornings as being pretty relaxed getting out.
He finished top ten at Gorge. He's absolutely a runner.

In fact, none of my local trail running pals wouldn't consider doing anything ultra out east, even when I tell them they don't know what they are missing.

They should come out and hate it so we can keep saying they're soft. :)
GDR is probably the only race that will ever draw West coast guys and that's not even that bad. I want elites out here for Cruel Jewel, Superior or Eastern States. Maybe Uwharrie.

[chknfngrs]

Is saabe going for supported or unsupported

[Violent Green]

Is saabe going for supported or unsupported

Supported attempt

[CalebJ]

According to Joe, he ran the downs, flats and some of the ups. If I remember correctly he finished several 50mi days in 11-12 hours. To me, thats a runner, but we would just be arguing semantics at that point.

Holy smokes. I had no idea he'd been maintaining that kind of moving pace. That's mind blowing for a long distance trail like the AT. A few hundred miles is one thing, but to repeat that performance for weeks is wild.

[JC13]

This still blows my mind. Especially when he described his mornings as being pretty relaxed getting out.He finished top ten at Gorge. He's absolutely a runner.They should come out and hate it so we can keep saying they're soft. :)GDR is probably the only race that will ever draw West coast guys and that's not even that bad. I want elites out here for Cruel Jewel, Superior or Eastern States. Maybe Uwharrie.Looks like we have 14 West Coasters coming out for the Pinhoti 100, gotta get that golden ticket!

[Just Bill]

Holy smokes. I had no idea he'd been maintaining that kind of moving pace. That's mind blowing for a long distance trail like the AT. A few hundred miles is one thing, but to repeat that performance for weeks is wild.
Both Joe and Joey ran. I'm a bit foggy on Stringbean's breakdowns but I believe Joey's biggest day was a 67, his worst was a 10 when he tore his quad.
Both of them did 'rip off a quick 50' at times which I believe helped manage the days for those who wonder how a self supported attempt could find the time to do what needed to be done.

My personal viewpoint only...
Both Jurek and Meltzer performed a fairly traditional "runner" style supported hike. Based loosely on the ultrarunning style of going from aide station to aide station, ideally with the day ending at access to the support vehicle.
It would be hard to argue Jurek had good logistics and knowledge of the trail, but it would be unfair to Karl (and Belz) to say that their logistics wasn't up to snuff.

What Jen did was truly unique. It was a hybrid of running and hiking in terms of style. She and Brew approached the FKT like a hike with a car logistically. You could think of it more as a slack pack really than a supported hike, as rather than beat their collective heads and wasted energy on making each possible point of aide a priority... they worked with the trail and accepted the logistics at face value in terms of what was realistic and what was not. As Brew mentioned... they couldn't sleep in the SUV anyway... but they took that further when needed and brought the camp where it needed to be. Both Doyle and Horton were secret weapons; but it is quite clear that Brew was very skilled at putting the support just where it needed to be. And as a hiker Jen wasn't as affected by 'missing the aide station' mentally as others have been on the rare mishap that did occur.

It terms of a supported hike, I think they set a model that is nearly ideal.
Further- You couldn't discount the dedication of Karl's crew and the emotional support of his father, nor could you say that Jenny Jurek didn't love and support Scott. However it would be hard to match the level of interconnection and support expressed between Brew and Jen. All supported efforts speak to a degree of the 'team' reaching the goal but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a husband and wife partnership equal on the level of the Davis crew.

Above all; they were in harmony with the trail in a way that very closely mimics the connection of the self-supported hiker. I'm not claiming that supported hikes cannot enjoy, love, or deeply connect with the trail. Far from it. However there is a slight (but profound) difference in attitude to the way one chooses to travel on the trail itself. One's impact, visibility, and respect that is hard to slip into when on a more traditional supported effort. All hikers understand this. No matter what speed you hike at: when all is going well, despite the highs and lows or difficulty encountered; the trail supports you. Without that support it is a vicious battle. With that support anything is possible.

Putting a crew together, dealing with logistics, bringing a vehicle to the woods, juggling multiple personalities, differing moods and energy levels are all huge challenges. There is an added financial burden, LNT issues, and even the public perception do deal with when going supported. More or less... you take on all these challenges for the simple benefit of carrying a bit less stuff.

Increasingly it is debatable if this is a fair trade.
The AT is choppable into to very logistically manageable 50-200 mile sections. With some planning and knowledge there exist many opportunities to further adjust on the fly. At 50 MPD and advances in ultralight gear the line between supported hiker moving between aide stations and self supported hiker moving between towns is blurring quickly.

I doubt there is a best. It's too personal.
I'd have a hard time picturing a career runner like Scott or Karl abandoning a lifetime of experience simply to try it.
I'd have a hard time picturing Jen moving without the carrot of Brew at the end of each day's trail pulling her along so quickly.
I'd have a hard time seeing Joey Camps trade the love and peace of a solo trip just to save a few pounds.

I could easily see a master strategist like Matt Kirk developing a hybridized style just for the intellectual challenge of it.
I could easily understand how Stringbean, much like Williamson before him, could find a way to 'beat the runners'.

Though it is increasingly clear that regardless of approach or style; not running at points is no longer a serious option.
Even a blistering 4 MPH hour walking pace for 15 hours a day in some form of hyper Jennifer Pharr Davis modeled trip is unlikely. There is a natural speed limit on the AT that would swat down this plan. The terrain dictates the speed. The cycle of the sun dictates the time available.
The strategy of both the tortoise and the hare is currently required.

Being most familiar with Joey's attempt (but expecting deep parallels with Stringbean) it is clear that is the model of success.
Being self-supported, rather than wake up and pour over a road map... they could wake up and pour over an elevation profile. Joey could pick and choose where to fight his battles. When the wise and patient tortoise should plod along and when the hare should rip off a half day 50 and take a nap. That stretch of positive forward progress dictated by hours upon hours of steady walking with little sleep could be balanced and mixed with a quick day of jogging backed up by an 8 hour or longer period of sleep. While some see the bursts of speed as counter productive to slow steady consistency... I think that buying back a few hours to replenish the sleep deprivation piggy bank via running made a big difference to both Joes.


Most importantly perhaps, with no-one to depend on and no-one depending on them; they were free to listen to both body and trail in terms of when to implement these strategies.

Unlike typical supported logistics... with out frequent 'aide stations' to check into and splits to micro analyze your goals are broader. Sure everyone is shooting for 'daily' goals but I feel the self supported or solo hiker is less prone to pushing one's self to the redline quite so often. We all have ups and downs. If every 5-12 miles you're pushing to stay on pace... that's much different than walking for several hours when your body tells you and then ripping off serious miles when your body gives you the green light.


With logistics pushed out to 50, 75, or 100+ miles at a time rather than simply the next road crossing... the carrots were harder to reach but bigger draws.
You read Jen describe making a push to see Brew, or a runner sucking it up for an extra dozen miles to reach the next stop when times are hard and energy is low.
But what you didn't read much of is when Joey Camps looked several dozen miles ahead and made multi-day pushes to reach his carrots.

Every hiker understands that time you looked at the data book, dug out some device to tell you that it was indeed a 'thursday' and you better kick some ass if that resupply, town meal and beer you wanted is going to happen, because you need to be there on Saturday rather than Sunday when things are closed. Once you've cleared down you can go back to a more proper schedule of Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow and slip back out of needing to know any other labels.
To an extent, the supported hiker never quite gets to slip reality in quite the same way a hiker does. They have to focus on days, hours, stops, miles, checkpoints.

The self-supported FKT isn't quite the totally carefree traveling of the long distance hiker... but it's much closer. Hit town, look to the next one, then put your head down and make it happen. Maybe it is three days out, and you do have to do a quick calculation on if three days happens to be on a Sunday or not. There is a clear goal, but it is a bit broader than the next crossing. You can always set those micro targets as needed, however you can abandon them too. So long as when you next hit town is not going to be a scheduling issue you are once more free to shoulder a pack, melt into the woods, and travel the trail as you see fit.

Not being a master runner... I find it debatable if 5 lbs or so is some magical limiting factor that would crush all pace and effort on a highly technical multi-week trail like the AT.
Doing one of Jurek's 24 hour laps around the track type competitions... I could easily see there being an significant impact. But when restricted by the terrain and subject to the whims of weather and nature I'd think the freedom to do what you will, when you will is far more strategically valuable than shortening your resupply from 150 miles to 12 miles or so at a time. Perhaps I'm too much of a backpacker to think otherwise...

Pushing through a bad storm because you have a checkpoint... picking up hypothermia because you don't have sufficient gear... missing your crew and going several hours without food or water... killing yourself on the last hour of the day because you don't have sleep gear... crashing and sleeping on the trail mid-morning and the mental highs and lows of OTHERS being involved in your hike.

Better to duck in that next shelter and chat with a hiker, or make a quick hot drink during that storm. Unless you miss a spring or find a dry one... you can't miss connecting with what you already are carrying. And if you're drained and the last few miles will kill you for tomorrow you just pull out your bivy and sleep right beside yer old friend the trail.

And if all has fallen into place; you are in the right space, you are fast, you are light and most important you are free.
Well there is nothing but miles and miles of trail ahead of you calling you to float along beside her and enjoy the day.

Peace and Love indeed.

[JC13]

Beautifully spoken as usual Bill!

[brew]

I chose to train for and run a 100 miler when Charley was one and to record an album when Gus was one. The album was a lot easier. :)
I don't know how you found time to record your own album while raising two kids (my 3 year old son takes up nearly all my time it seems like), but I've enjoyed listening to it and reading your wife's book.

[CalebJ]

I'll bet! Which hundred did you do?

[ScottS]

I like the slackpack description more than hybrid. Funny how I never considered that.

[fiddlehead]

Interesting discussion.
But there's one more elephant in the room that I don't see discussed: LUCK!

Luck with the weather (temps in PA in July range from 23 deg to 110 deg F ) (which one would you rather hike in, or have the fastest time)
Luck with your support crew: breakdowns, getting lost, not finding the medicine or food you crave
Luck with equipment: shoes fall apart in PA, 9 miles from the next support?
Luck with timing: support, people waiting in line to filter water at a spring, finding a campsite when you need one, or even a parking spot close to the trail for supportt.

I seem to remember on Karl Metzger's first attempt, he started with something like 7 days of heavy rain.
Couldn't even ford Big Wilson or one of the Maine fords I believe. He ended up with athletes foot from the constant water and ended up starting over if I remember correctly.

Not sure if this is true but isn't this year hotter than average in New England? Much hotter? THAT can make a huge difference IMO.

2 years ago, there was quite a big snowstorm in CO in June. It stopped a lot of thru-hikers that year who had to change plans and gear and created much slower than normal times through the Wiminuche, San Juan NF, etc.
This year, there are fires in the same area so, things get closed.
What would happen to a FKT attempt if there are fires or floods and the trail gets closed in some sections? If nothing else, I'm sure it would be demoralizing.
And of course: getting lost.

I imagine Stringbean had some luck. And of course massive planning that all worked out.

One year I hiked the AT and we had an 11 day stretch of rain and water was bubbling out of the ground everywhere (95 I believe it was)

[brew]

Mohican in Ohio

[matthew.d.kirk]

An analogy has been drawn between climbing and FKT hikes as aid : free :: supported : self-supported. While on a family vacation to escape the FL heat and humidity, we've been listening to a book on CD by climber Tommy Caldwell called "The Push." Caldwell describes speed-climbing in his book as often assuming a hybridized form of aid and free, that the best speed climbers are often the ones proficient in both styles.

Similarly, it makes sense to me that the most successful attempt at an overall FKT on the AT would be by someone proficient in both supported and self-supported styles. At least I'd like to think that runners with backgrounds in backpacking still enjoy an advantage. Maybe that's just my bias. :)
Nice to see Stringbean coming out and supporting Harvey. Hopefully Harvey can enjoy the beauty of the North Woods in spite of his suffering.

[royalusa]

.... And we had trail yoga Warren Doyle giving us advice literally at every turn ...

I always wondered about the decision to have have Jen cross the Kennebec without the aid of the canoe. Was there 'inside' info from Warren Doyle about the scheduling of releasing water that made such an action safer? I believe many have died from such a unassisted crossing.

[George]

I believe many have died from such a unassisted crossing.

no, one person died - but people die daily crossing roads, we need boy scouts to assist hikers crossing busy roads

[brew]

She got there around 5:45am and had to wait 2.5-3 hours for the water to go down so we went to northern outdoors for breakfast and came back. It was pretty clear the level was too high when we got there but she wouldn’t have known where to cross without warren showing her. It was upstream 50-75 yards and the current was crazy strong. She had to focus to keep her feet under her but she just really wanted to do it so that’s what we did. My favorite photo from that hike was of her and warren fording. They look hard core.

[D2maine]

2 have died

there is only a partial schedule(to aid the white water rafting business mostly)
releases can and do come at any time of day or season based solely on the economics and flood conditions of the upstream dams
once released the river rises faster than a hiker can cross and comes with an increase in the speed of the current
nobo hikers do not see the real depth of the river until about half way across, its deepest near the east bank (trail north) side

now back to the excellent fkt discussion i am sure Brew is not going to get sucked into a troll about fording...

[D2maine]

2 have died

there is only a partial schedule(to aid the white water rafting business mostly)
releases can and do come at any time of day or season based solely on the economics and flood conditions of the upstream dams
once released the river rises faster than a hiker can cross and comes with an increase in the speed of the current
nobo hikers do not see the real depth of the river until about half way across, its deepest near the east bank (trail north) side

now back to the excellent fkt discussion i am sure Brew is not going to get sucked into a troll about fording...

[D2maine]

the dreaded double post arghhhhh

[capehiker]

This brings up an interesting point. Since the honored tradition is to hike the FKT attempt the way the current holder did, what is the Kennebec crossing for supported and unsupported? How did Stringbean do it?

[brew]

I’m glad you chimed in and reinforced how crazy it can be and how unpredictable the releases are. I wanted to give a disclaimer or something. 🙂 Purists like warren Love fording but I think the ferry’s there for good reason.

I also don’t hold it against Karl or Scott for hiring a private ferry. I know precedent was to take the AT ferry but I think thats a grey area. I mean, AT fkt junkies would know but not necessarily western trail runners. I also think a guy like Scott (or Karl if he’d been NOBO) are gonna gut it out and make it happen private ferry or not. Having said that, I also think the fact that string bean waited to take the official ferry makes his record that much more insane. The ferry’s a moot point now, I’d say, but to use an expression i used earlier, in general the dust should have settled and any legit fkt attempter should know how to do things. Or that if they don’t (ie, cutting out a burn section or yellow blazing around it), their fkt will be questioned or have an asterisk. It’s not their fault, it’s just tough nuts, like weather in the whites.

What do y’all think? I’m not as much of an “expert” as Matt, Karl, Joey camps, probably some of you. the more we talk about this stuff, the poorer the excuses will be going forward. Incidentally Jen wrote an fkt etiquette article on thetrek.com that came out yesterday. I’d link to it but I’m typing with one finger on my phone while the kids fall asleep. 👍

[Slo-go'en]

2 have died

there is only a partial schedule(to aid the white water rafting business mostly)
releases can and do come at any time of day or season based solely on the economics and flood conditions of the upstream dams
once released the river rises faster than a hiker can cross and comes with an increase in the speed of the current
nobo hikers do not see the real depth of the river until about half way across, its deepest near the east bank (trail north) side

now back to the excellent fkt discussion i am sure Brew is not going to get sucked into a troll about fording...

My neighbor did a 90 day thru hike in 1985, with Limmer boots no less. He forded the river and said he ended up over a mile down stream and getting up and over the bank where he ended up was not easy. He turned his pack into a floatation aid with a trash bag sealed inside. He had a large Gregory pack with not much left in it at that point, so plenty of space to fill up with air.

[Odd Man Out]

My neighbor did a 90 day thru hike in 1985, with Limmer boots no less. He forded the river and said he ended up over a mile down stream and getting up and over the bank where he ended up was not easy. He turned his pack into a floatation aid with a trash bag sealed inside. He had a large Gregory pack with not much left in it at that point, so plenty of space to fill up with air.

In Tajikistan, boys learn to cross rivers by killing a goat, skinning it, sewing it up the skin, and inflating it like a balloon.

And FWIW, as of day 40, Harvey is 77.7 miles behind Stringbean was on day 40, or 7.2 miles behind where Stringbean was on day 38.

[Just Bill]

I’m glad you chimed in and reinforced how crazy it can be and how unpredictable the releases are. I wanted to give a disclaimer or something. 🙂 Purists like warren Love fording but I think the ferry’s there for good reason.

I also don’t hold it against Karl or Scott for hiring a private ferry. I know precedent was to take the AT ferry but I think thats a grey area. I mean, AT fkt junkies would know but not necessarily western trail runners. I also think a guy like Scott (or Karl if he’d been NOBO) are gonna gut it out and make it happen private ferry or not. Having said that, I also think the fact that string bean waited to take the official ferry makes his record that much more insane. The ferry’s a moot point now, I’d say, but to use an expression i used earlier, in general the dust should have settled and any legit fkt attempter should know how to do things. Or that if they don’t (ie, cutting out a burn section or yellow blazing around it), their fkt will be questioned or have an asterisk. It’s not their fault, it’s just tough nuts, like weather in the whites.

What do y’all think? I’m not as much of an “expert” as Matt, Karl, Joey camps, probably some of you. the more we talk about this stuff, the poorer the excuses will be going forward. Incidentally Jen wrote an fkt etiquette article on thetrek.com that came out yesterday. I’d link to it but I’m typing with one finger on my phone while the kids fall asleep. 👍

Link to article by yer missus.
https://thetrek.co/fkt-etiquette-sponsorship-publicity-jennifer-pharr-davis/
As she points out simply- do your homework. As discussed before, this 'sport' is new so a bit of misstep and confusion is to be expected but as you point out... there is more info than ever and less firm ground than ever before for any excuses to stand on.

The ferry is pretty simple I think.
One of the most basic and fundamental rules is to follow the official trail. The ferry is part of the official trail. Use it moving forward.

As fer hiring a private ferry. One could easily argue that on a supported FKT it's just another form of support.
You could go a step further and argue that hiring a private ferry ensures your attempt does not interfere with the experience of other hikers... though I think that is a bit thin.
You could also argue that it removes a variable to keep the FKT 'even'. Much as Bink argued that catching a hitch or not could introduce an unpredictable advantage or disadvantage... getting stuck on the bank for 12 hours or rolling up and hopping in the canoe with no line or delay is an unpredictable advantage. Not a theoretical one either when a mere 12 hours or so separate Jen, Scott and Karl.

Technically Jen hired a private ferry too ;):p:D. Or maybe private tugboat is more accurate.

All that said; the current overall time was set by a person who used the official ferry. And one who had to wait 12 hours to do so.
The last bit of thin ice left to skate on I think has melted. If a self-supported hiker can figure out how to stay on the official route, set a safe example, use the service provided AND still shave a day one could argue that attempting to circumvent the ferry to gain an advantage is just plain cheatin.
The goal is never to **** on those who came before you. So nothing negative should be ascribed to Jen, Scott, or Karl. Or Warren hisself if'n you want to go back to his pioneering record.
However the goal is also to at minimum match, if not improve upon the standards set by those who came before you. To that end, falling back on fording or a private ferry would be a step backwards.

Trail First: The ATC provides the ferry and considers it the official route.
Stringbean used it, set the overall FKT, and proved that it is not an undue burden to impose on future attempts.
That 'undue burden' is a standard Peter Bakwin likes to use when discussing any 'rules' or guidelines.


Jen does a good job of addressing the real issue popping up and the underlying issue with FKT's on our big trails; Trail First.
Admire them or not, there is nothing so special about an FKT that it should impact the trail in a negative way. The closer to the trail itself and cleaner your impact the better. If anything an FKT should set an even higher standard of respect and responsibility to the trail because of it's public nature.

Folks here toss around the word 'ambassador'. I think it's perhaps going a bit too far to demand one take on the burden of that role, but it sure does make life easier for everyone if a participant assumes that role.

On a selfish level- I haven't read it yet... but I'd guess Jurek addresses in his book how a simple misstep can overshadow all the good and positive attention one attempts to bring to a trail with a FKT.
He is such a fine person that I think we all (as a trail community) really missed an opportunity to both inspire and bring more people together thru his effort.

On a trail wide level- If the trail does not come first, then the FKT itself will not continue. Even now I privately debate if one should start/stop the hike at Abol Bridge. Tensions with Baxter State Park are high, and the impact of this tension for the trail as a whole is quite real. It's unfair to lay all that at the feet of the occasional FKT that passes through as it's the flood of hikers overall using the AT that is the actual issue. Though it can be hard to tell which is the proverbial drop of champagne that breaks the camel's back.

Speaking of ambassadors:
Sincere thanks once again to Jennifer for stepping up. Defining and addressing these issues is critical, including the growing impact of publicity pollution, a term she coined?
I was in talks after last year about publishing a similar FKT etiquette piece; but in truth nobody wants to hear from a yowling jackass desk jockey. The message needs to come from a holder/participant.
I'm glad Jen learnt to cuss in her latest book from time to time. A good swear or two balanced with passion and plainspeaking goes a long way.

Thanks again for flexing your unique voice and putting the trail first.
"At the end of the day, it is important to remember that despite different resumes and approaches, and regardless of whether we want to set an FKT, thru hike, section hike, or picnic on the AT we are all on the same team, or at least in the same conference. We all need to work together to share healthy dialogue and respectful debate so that we can have a better understanding of one another, trail culture, and conservation policies.


My hope here is not to degrade anyone but to honestly and openly talk about what is best for the future or FKTs and the trail. And, I will be the first to admit, that I wish I could tweak some of my previous actions or decisions. But moving forward, I believe that low-media, low-impact trail records, which adhere to conservation regulations set forth by land management and the Appalachian Trail Conservancy are best for the trail, the AT community, and the FKT athletes."

[Just Bill]

An analogy has been drawn between climbing and FKT hikes as aid : free :: supported : self-supported. While on a family vacation to escape the FL heat and humidity, we've been listening to a book on CD by climber Tommy Caldwell called "The Push." Caldwell describes speed-climbing in his book as often assuming a hybridized form of aid and free, that the best speed climbers are often the ones proficient in both styles.

Similarly, it makes sense to me that the most successful attempt at an overall FKT on the AT would be by someone proficient in both supported and self-supported styles. At least I'd like to think that runners with backgrounds in backpacking still enjoy an advantage. Maybe that's just my bias. :)
Nice to see Stringbean coming out and supporting Harvey. Hopefully Harvey can enjoy the beauty of the North Woods in spite of his suffering.

Still with you on the climbing parallels. Though in yer case, and perhaps Tommy's too... bit of a chicken and egg issue. At some point when someone has attempted, attacked and absorbed a pursuit at every angle and direction they become so well rounded that the lines blur into a complete circle. Or as Coyote Thunder Owl says of the ol medicine wheel; All paths lead to the center.

I'm still biased towards the lessons learned from 'Team Backpacker' but it's clear that such clean delineations between the styles are no longer enough to do the job regardless. Neither runner or backpacker can take this on as a standalone practitioner of their chosen discipline.

Though seems Jen remains conflicted on the subject as well:
"Maybe it is as simple as cheering for your team? Maybe you form alliances and allegiances with other record-setters based on similar approaches. Perhaps I feel a stronger connection to Joe because he had more of a long trail resume and spoke the language of a thru hiker or a backpacker more that the trail runners who have come from an ultra-racing background."

Though if'n I may be so bold I think that I've put my finger on the issue for me at least...

A supported hike is an exploration of the limits of the human body. As much as humanly possible the needs beyond simply putting one foot in front of the other are eliminated. A successful supported trip boils it down to a physical effort on the trail with the least amount of distractions or limits placed on that effort.

A self supported hike is an exploration of the limits of a human being. It strikes right at the heart of the purity of purpose in backpacking itself; A person, a pack, a trail.
One could express that it presents the ultimate competition of man vs nature by it's solitary limitation, but I think most would agree that in truth it the battle is one of man vs himself. If anything I know we both strongly feel that it is only in being in harmony with the trail that one could even entertain thoughts of success.

I'd guess and infer that you are curious of what could be possible, what the absolute limits of the physical aspect of the effort could be. Perhaps my mind has muddled up having that very conversation with you and no speculation on the matter is needed. It remains a valid question, and I feel that is the one a fully supported effort can answer. If a hybrid version proves most effective, I'd more than give you credit for being capable of determining how best to apply all the tools in yer bag of tricks since the very advantage/appeal of the supported effort is that all options are on the table. At the extreme level of support; the thought of having your own personal sherpa team on hand would give you the flexibility of the self-supported hiker to maximize each mile, section, and day to it's fullest. On the simpler side; doing a shennies style multiple aide point run where it was logistically easy blended with 24-36 hour slackpacks where terrain dictates would be exciting to dream about.

But at the end of the day... I find some portion of that quest boring. I respect it. Admire the effort of it.
Ultimately though it's hyper focus on point a to b coverage of distance forces me back into the tired old backpacker argument: "It's a race"

Unlike my fellow curmudgeonly old backpackers, I can appreciate that race and have no desire to exclude any from attempting it so long as the trail comes first.
Could even easily see myself studying them for clues about how best to integrate those lessons into a traditional hike.

Though the completeness of one human being accepting total responsibility for oneself while pursuing maximum effort is a balance and harmony with the world around them is the true appeal. Both climbing and backpacking do require some specialized gear, but remain very pure pursuits overall. While not quite as dramatically present, there is a life or death balance present in backpacking as well... collapsing at each day's finish line is not an option. 'Any jackass can climb a mountain, but only a mountaineer can return to the base of it.'

There is a fine line one must walk in both sports. KNOWING there is more in the tank, but having the discipline and experience to reserve just enough to complete the trip.
A supported trip lets you redline the engine and see how accurate that gas gauge really is so you can run on fumes safely and with little care. Neat trick. Good thing to know.

When you walk that tightrope... it's just not as appealing when there is a safety net. It's an admirable skill to cross it for sure.
But the real appeal comes when the master removes the net and dances solo with everything on the line.


That's when simply being fast transcends a simple race or sport for both participant and audience.
Even when there is no audience, or perhaps especially when there is none.

I still think Ms McAfee-Maggart says it best:

“When the Pawn Hits the Conflicts He Thinks Like a King
What He Knows Throws the Blows When He Goes to the Fight
and He'll Win the Whole Thing 'Fore He Enters the Ring
There's No Body to Batter When Your Mind Is Your Might
So When You Go Solo, You Hold Your Own Hand
and Remember That Depth Is the Greatest of Heights
and If You Know Where You Stand, Then You Know Where to Land
and If You Fall It Won't Matter, Cuz You'll Know That You're Right”

[brew]

I like thinking about warren as a tugboat. 👍 We scheduled the entire hike (at least the first 3 days) around getting to the kennebec while the ferry was running. But Jen just wanted to ford it, to have an old school experience because she didnt know if she’d ever get the opportunity to ford (she hadn’t the two previous times) and warren, with all his first hand knowledge, was right there.

You could argue she went “off route” but I don’t think you could argue she got an advantage from it, not that you were saying she did. She used a lot of energy on that ford and the ferry was already running when she crossed it.

I think it’s interesting that all of us feel like Joe is on our “team,” regardless of whether we are hikers or trail runners.

Also, I wonder how much time he spent resupplying. If it was just a total time suck or somehow allowed him to recover mentally from trail miles. Kind of like when Kilian takes a rock out of shoe or waits for somebody else to run with at a summit. If somebody wanted to do a self supported style because that suited them better but didn’t want to spend hours every few days resupplying in town or at a hostel it would be pretty simple to have a support person deliver resupplies at road crossings every 150 or 200 miles. If they were aiming for the overall/supported record of course. I mean, isn’t that what amazon prime is for? Ha

[brew]

I do like having the kennebec as an added puzzle to solve on record attempts, but I don’t think it’s realistic to revert back.

[TravisRex]

Thanks for the link to Jen's article. Interesting to get her take on it.

The massage table has been brought up by a couple of people and looking back through the pictures that have been posted, there are total of three pictures of a massage table, all taken in the dark, late at night at Harvey's final stopping point. In two of the pictures, yes, the table is outside in an otherwise empty, dark parking lot. In the third the table is located inside a tent, hidden from view, and again taken at night. I wasn't there so I can't confirm how many hikers saw this, but the chances of other hikers being out after dark in those particular areas feels pretty low.

There are also two instance where a travel cot was set up during the day at a road crossing, allowing a visiting PT (not a masseuse) to work on his injury.

Which brings me to my point - where's the line?

To take this out to extremes, should there not be a chair or table sitting out? What about a dry pair of socks? What about the thru-hiker who could afford to buy two hamburgers in a small town? Should they not eat in front of other hikers?

I agree with a lot of what JPD has to say, and I understand how some of the team's actions have undoubtedly come across - especially through the prism of social media where a single picture might be displayed with little to no information outside of what one looks and interprets what they see.

Harvey feels an extremely close connection to nature, and I don't think we've done a great job of having this come across in some of the posts. I've been on runs where we've stopped to take pictures of milkweed and checked the leaves for caterpillars, eaten berries from a tree, and ran to a nearby zoo so he could try to get the wolves to howl with him (this was all on the same run by the way...we got back well after dark). Besides his well-documented love of rocks, Harvey often will buy a plant for races. During a 24 hour race around a track, Harvey placed a plant outside of the track so he could look at over at it each time he went around. At Badwater, with space at a premium in a van, Harvey will buy a cactus which we'll periodically haul out so he can look at it, before planting it once the race is over. Does being able to get clean water from the van versus filtering from a stream lead him to be less connected to nature? I honestly don't know...

Where's the line between documenting a trip as it's going on versus documenting it once it's over? If Joe came out with a book, would that change what anyone thought? Does that make it a well-documented trip? Is there a difference between documenting "during" vs documenting "after"? Jen talks about she feels that "low-media" attempts are ultimately best for the trail. Where I struggle with this is that being able to live vicariously through a "high-media" trip is as close as many of the people following along will ever get to experiencing the trail. And maybe that's the problem - maybe it's too much like a tour group riding a bus as it glides through Rome. You're seeing it, but are you really experiencing it?

Rereading this, I realize this is going to come across as overly defensive, and that's not really my intention. What I'm trying to understand - and living in the Midwest, I've had little to no exposure to what Jen describes as "trail culture," especially the "east coast" variation that others have mentioned - is...well, trail culture. I appreciate the paragraph where she talks about everyone being on the same team - and her call to action resonated enough with me to go make a donation to the ATC. But there's also no shortage of subsets and cliques within that team. I realize the answer is probably "hike your own hike," whether that's with a crew catering to your needs or spending time to filter your water each day only able to eat three handfuls of trail mix when you want the whole bag. Being involved in this experience has been an interesting (and at times eye-opening) peek into this world.

[TrailRunnerGuy]

Interesting point about trail closures and FKTs. In Aug 2016, the AT was closed in VA between Humpback Rocks parking to Dripping Rock because of aggressive bears that had broken into a car, and weren't leaving the trail (at least once) when hikers approached. Hikers were told to yellow blaze on the parkway--~3.5 miles on pavement instead of 7 by trail, and a lot less elevation, not to mention avoiding some rocky parts. It was re-opened by the time Karl came through. Had it not been, and if he had followed instructions, would he not have been recognized for the FKT? Certainly another option would've been to ignore the signs and take his chances with the bears, but that would've led to negative publicity if he'd been caught. And if there had been fire, he would've had no choice. That's the breaks?

[brew]

Man, that's a great question ("where's the line?"). I can't say. It's different for everyone. I just know it struck me as over the top.

It'd be a little like having a cappuccino maker at a trail head. It's a luxury most ordinary thru hikers don't have. If you're doing trail magic and offering to folks, awesome. genius even. But if not, don't have it or be discreet about it. otherwise if you're saying "hey, he's just one of you," thru-hikers (and the online AT community) are gonna call BS. And they'd be right.

It's the "haves" and "have nots." There's no set dollar amount but I've heard a lot of thru-hikers spend two or three dollars per mile. I'm guessing that's the most recent supported FKTs have been $30-$50 or more. And hey, hike you're own hike. But just be aware of the discrepancy and tread lightly. I think that's how Karl really evolved and I applaud him for that. If you're dirt bagging it and doing things discreetly- as it sounds like was done with the cot and the PT- we're none the wiser and it's all good. But with sponsorship stuff, that almost seems mutually exclusive.

I think Trail Runner Guy a while ago mentioned needing supplies for Harvey and not being able to share stuff. I kind of get that, not wanting to run into town or having a limited supply and being focused on your guy (or gal). But at the same time, that's also kind of the opposite of what the AT is about. People share stuff- fuel, an energy bar, sometimes water, duct tape. It's what makes the trail special and what makes trail angels so appreciated. A cold Coke or Clif bar, a burger or burrito at a trail head- heck, a freakin' jolly rancher- goes a LOOOONG way and really lifts your spirits when you're thru-hiking.

If I were in town or at a trailhead and saw somebody who looked like they needed a ride, I'd either give them one or tell them I'd do it as soon as Jen came through. I'm not trying to seem like a saint. The opposite. I think that's normal around the trail and just part of the "trail culture."

As for "in the moment" vs. "after the fact" I'm not one to talk. I mean, we make our living off Jen speaking and writing. She's got a book out right now on FKTs and though she'd written Becoming Odyssa (her first and most popular) before ever doing an FKT, the recognition from the FKT took that stuff to another level. But at the same time, we kind of use the FKT to get her foot in the door and talk about what really matters, which is her love for the AT and getting people outdoors. She's on the AT board, we give sizable donations every year, and she'll keep hiking and trying to get people on trails till the day she dies. She wants to share her passion for the AT (and trails in general) because she thinks it can make a difference in people's lives and for the environment. I have no doubt that's what Harvey wants, too (even the sponsors, deep down).

I will say, y'all have done an OUTSTANDING job of documenting things. It's been highly entertaining to get 2, 3, and 4 updates a day. And I love the image of Harvey trying to get the zoo wolves to howl. He seems like that type of guy.

The last thing I want is to offend any of you, either. That would be wrong and I don't want you to get that impression from the "AT" community. We want to be welcome hosts, if I can call us that. Like Jen said and you reiterated, we're all on the same team, working together to try to inspire people to be better versions of themselves and to care about nature and trails. Cue the koombayah. But it's true.




Thanks for the link to Jen's article. Interesting to get her take on it.

The massage table has been brought up by a couple of people and looking back through the pictures that have been posted, there are total of three pictures of a massage table, all taken in the dark, late at night at Harvey's final stopping point. In two of the pictures, yes, the table is outside in an otherwise empty, dark parking lot. In the third the table is located inside a tent, hidden from view, and again taken at night. I wasn't there so I can't confirm how many hikers saw this, but the chances of other hikers being out after dark in those particular areas feels pretty low.

There are also two instance where a travel cot was set up during the day at a road crossing, allowing a visiting PT (not a masseuse) to work on his injury.

Which brings me to my point - where's the line?

To take this out to extremes, should there not be a chair or table sitting out? What about a dry pair of socks? What about the thru-hiker who could afford to buy two hamburgers in a small town? Should they not eat in front of other hikers?

I agree with a lot of what JPD has to say, and I understand how some of the team's actions have undoubtedly come across - especially through the prism of social media where a single picture might be displayed with little to no information outside of what one looks and interprets what they see.

Harvey feels an extremely close connection to nature, and I don't think we've done a great job of having this come across in some of the posts. I've been on runs where we've stopped to take pictures of milkweed and checked the leaves for caterpillars, eaten berries from a tree, and ran to a nearby zoo so he could try to get the wolves to howl with him (this was all on the same run by the way...we got back well after dark). Besides his well-documented love of rocks, Harvey often will buy a plant for races. During a 24 hour race around a track, Harvey placed a plant outside of the track so he could look at over at it each time he went around. At Badwater, with space at a premium in a van, Harvey will buy a cactus which we'll periodically haul out so he can look at it, before planting it once the race is over. Does being able to get clean water from the van versus filtering from a stream lead him to be less connected to nature? I honestly don't know...

Where's the line between documenting a trip as it's going on versus documenting it once it's over? If Joe came out with a book, would that change what anyone thought? Does that make it a well-documented trip? Is there a difference between documenting "during" vs documenting "after"? Jen talks about she feels that "low-media" attempts are ultimately best for the trail. Where I struggle with this is that being able to live vicariously through a "high-media" trip is as close as many of the people following along will ever get to experiencing the trail. And maybe that's the problem - maybe it's too much like a tour group riding a bus as it glides through Rome. You're seeing it, but are you really experiencing it?

Rereading this, I realize this is going to come across as overly defensive, and that's not really my intention. What I'm trying to understand - and living in the Midwest, I've had little to no exposure to what Jen describes as "trail culture," especially the "east coast" variation that others have mentioned - is...well, trail culture. I appreciate the paragraph where she talks about everyone being on the same team - and her call to action resonated enough with me to go make a donation to the ATC. But there's also no shortage of subsets and cliques within that team. I realize the answer is probably "hike your own hike," whether that's with a crew catering to your needs or spending time to filter your water each day only able to eat three handfuls of trail mix when you want the whole bag. Being involved in this experience has been an interesting (and at times eye-opening) peek into this world.

[brew]

That's another great question. And I don't know. I lean toward "that's the breaks" but I'm a lot less of an expert on this one than Matt and some of the others. I don't think Matt wants to be the arbiter of all this stuff but I'm curious what he thinks. Matt? :)


Interesting point about trail closures and FKTs. In Aug 2016, the AT was closed in VA between Humpback Rocks parking to Dripping Rock because of aggressive bears that had broken into a car, and weren't leaving the trail (at least once) when hikers approached. Hikers were told to yellow blaze on the parkway--~3.5 miles on pavement instead of 7 by trail, and a lot less elevation, not to mention avoiding some rocky parts. It was re-opened by the time Karl came through. Had it not been, and if he had followed instructions, would he not have been recognized for the FKT? Certainly another option would've been to ignore the signs and take his chances with the bears, but that would've led to negative publicity if he'd been caught. And if there had been fire, he would've had no choice. That's the breaks?

[TravisRex]

Really appreciate the passionate and well-written response Brew. I came to WB because I knew there would be discussion about this and wanted to be able to respond to questions and provide information where I could (and shout out to TRG for doing the same). I've really appreciated the opportunity to actually discuss things, and disagree, and have that be okay. Appreciate everything that everyone here has done and is doing to protect and preserve these 2000+ miles.

[brew]

Glad y’all came. And thanks for donating to the ATC! Very cool


Really appreciate the passionate and well-written response Brew. I came to WB because I knew there would be discussion about this and wanted to be able to respond to questions and provide information where I could (and shout out to TRG for doing the same). I've really appreciated the opportunity to actually discuss things, and disagree, and have that be okay. Appreciate everything that everyone here has done and is doing to protect and preserve these 2000+ miles.

[TrailRunnerGuy]

I didn't make a donation, but I did weed whack my 1+ mile section of the AT this week. :) Got a fist bump from a thru hiker as I paused to let him go by.

[matthew.d.kirk]

That's another great question. And I don't know. I lean toward "that's the breaks" but I'm a lot less of an expert on this one than Matt and some of the others. I don't think Matt wants to be the arbiter of all this stuff but I'm curious what he thinks. Matt? :)

FKTers should follow the official route, which changes often. Official reroutes pop up to preserve the resource and/or to protect the hiker. Doing otherwise is kind of silly. After all, I don’t see anyone trying to uphold Earl Schaffer’s FKT route. Ignoring reroutes also runs the risk of perpetuating our community’s perception of perverse behavior among FKTers.

As for style, documentation and other stuff, I have some thoughts I’d like to type out, but I’m home from the vacation and back to the grind, so that’ll have to wait. :) Harvey finish prediction… 47d15h

[TravisRex]

Harvey spent the night sleeping in a hammock a few miles north of Gorham (let's call it 1900). The latest schedule I'm working from has him finishing in just under 50 days which would have him finishing on July 18. Badwater starts in Death Valley on the evening of July 23. I'll be out there as the crew chief for a runner in the 9:30 pm wave and I'll be curious to see when Harvey (in the 11 pm wave) passes us and how he's feeling. Last year, he had a week after the World 24 hr championship (running 144 miles for 37th place) and Badwater and he ended up finishing 3rd. Very curious to talk to him next week and see how he recovers.

I'm also curious to see how he approaches these last 300 miles and if he empties the tank or if he tries to manage his effort with Badwater on the horizon.

[Just Bill]

Kudos to Harvey for continuing and best of luck on finishing his hike.

TrailRunnerGuy: EDIT- oops- meant Travis REX
As a fellow practical minded midwesterner...
On a supported FKT, in my opinion, pretty much anything goes. So if that means a true personal masseuse 'on staff' or a friend stopping by for a quick tune-up; it's support. One could argue a comfy folding chair and someone shoveling cooked food in your face is a decadent luxury too. But that's the point really. It's not a 'normal' hike. Any support you get is abnormal by default.

Some normal hikers get offended by those who choose to slackpack a section as well. Some normal hikers get offended by just about anything really. Most probably don't care too much so long as you stay out of their face.
A term you might not have heard is 'yogi'. Like Yogi Bear stealing a pick a nick basket. Some hikers are professional beggars and think anyone parked at the trailhead has arrived to provide them with treats. Failure to comply with their wishes to be supported on their special journey is cause for scorn. Wherever there's an elbow; there's an opinion and an *******.

That said... all eyes are on you. Technically you sign up for that burden. Since the trip is a public one it's worth a little thought and discretion to avoid any negative impact too.
Even as simple as setting up on the far side of the trail head lot, or out of line of sight of others is a decent plan. If nothing else it avoids running into too many folks.

Hikers are used to seeing feeds and trail magic so when you set up a spread right in line of sight of a hiker clearing the woods... even when the hiker is a kind soul with good intentions it causes a mini-roller coaster of emotions. You'll find folks here like myself who would like to see less magicians out on the trail, but on a hot day if someone is sitting there with a slice of watermelon that's hard to turn down. But if I clear the trail and hit a road crossing it's easy enough to walk to the otherside and back into the woods when your van is parked just around the corner with your table of goodies hidden on the far side. You're just another car in a parking lot and we've crossed paths without impacting each other in the slightest.

As Brew mentions though... a little 'goodwill' box of treats for the unavoidable run-in with hikers ain't the worst idea either.

For the most part... FKT's remain an ammeter pursuit. Only a few of us understand that 'professional' or 'sponsored' isn't in reality quite the corporate machine most picture. Hikers are cheap by nature, so even free shoes and t-shirts is a pretty sweet score. Even Karl's relatively extravagant expenditure probably didn't go too far after a van, crew pay, and supplies were factored in. But the perception is of a well stocked and provisioned van filled with every conceivable goody a hiker could want rolling down the trail selfishly hoarding it all for some jerk running on OUR trail is there.

The bigger misconception though is knowledge and planning. For the most part that jibe is valid.
Hikers spend months, even years planning their hikes. When a sponsored athlete takes on a FKT we assume you've done even more homework. You've researched permits, fees, obtained permissions, combed over the details, dove into the history, spent time training on the trail, contacted the ATC and even spent days pouring over websites like this one.
"Filming" implies 'film crews'. Documentation implies 'photographers' "Sponsor" implies 'money'. "Corporate" implies 'lawyers'. Professionals.

So the bottom line- People expect quite a lot out of you. They expect professionalism. There are a few of us who understand the real limitations and that simply concentrating on the FKT itself is more burden than most can handle. Dumping all this extra crap onto it might be a step too far. But real life is that it comes with the territory, in particular with the Appalachian Trail. I can guarantee folks at the Ice Age Trail may happily welcome you and thank you profusely for bringing attention to the trail. The AT is a premier trail, and access to it comes at a premium in terms of responsibility when using it.

Hiking a long distance trail can be a lark, but for many it's the dream of a lifetime.

For some it's the defining moment of young adulthood, for others the retirement carrot that got them through life's long ratrace.
More importantly; for several months at a time... and even decades after one leaves it... the Appalachian Trail is home.
Even those who hike on a whim tend to feel this way long after they have left or even before they've arrived. It's very personal.

Anyone has a right to visit. Just remember you're a guest.
Anyone has a right to move in. But be a good roommate.
Anyone who moves in understands how fragile it is. Don't mess it up.

Runners, especially Ultra folks, have a strong sense of comrade and connection.
Hikers live together in a small town that is 2200 miles long and a few hundred feet wide.
So the word community tends to get used in a very literal and tangible sense a layer deeper than even those in the ultra community enjoy.
So does the word family; though fair to say it's as dysfunctional as any other at times.

It's impossible to say where the line is.
The only clearly defined one is a 2200 mile long line a few footprints wide.
It only exists because thousands and thousands of people every year volunteer to preserve it.
So really all you can do is try not to cross it.

Yar, that's basically an impossible standard.
Thankfully... At their very best;
FKT's specialize in the impossible.

[brew]

I can't believe Harvey's doing Badwater less than a week after finishing. Crazy.

Matt, I wasn't saying "ignore the reroute," I was saying if there's a reroute it complicates how the FKT attempt is viewed. There are a ton of variables. Does it shorten it or lengthen it? Replace trail miles with road miles? How much does it shorten it by? If it lengthens it but replaces trail miles with road miles, how much before it's seen as "equal"? What if it's a significant reroute (12 miles) but you break the record by a day?

And to Matt's point about Earl Schaffer, the trail's never the same from year to year but it would be silly to say "FKT when it's 2189.3," "FKT when it's 2190.1." There are way too many scenarios and I don't think anybody wants to parse out how different or equal it all is. But I do think you reach a breaking point where it's "not the same" and should be viewed as such.

Does anybody know how much the burn reroute took off when Karel did his PCT FKT? On Peter Bakwin's FKT pro board it just says (taking several fire detours)

[Just Bill]

Brew-
If I could channel my spirit animal Peter Bakwin (or basically paraphrase him really):
"The FKT site records efforts that are submitted. As much as possible they do not judge the validity of the efforts; that job remains with the community as a whole".

You can call it the dreaded asterisk. There are some routes like the JMT where a fire closure or other re-route is too serious to even count the effort. It may get noted, but discounted because it was too far off the mark.

Karel's PCT hike "Taking several fire detours" is the asterisk. There was great debate and many who consider his hike invalid as a result.

Peter records... we debate.
Peter may chime in as a member of the community but he still tends to record regardless.

Knott's adventures on the AT; Peter was directly involved in reviewing the hike. Despite several issues, Dan's hike was recorded and remains on the site.

For the most part... you could argue that the AT is one of the only 'stable' trails out there. So we all willingly overlook the exact distance discrepancy from year to year.
Some trails are so unstable in their current routing or land acquisition that it is really little more than noting an effort rather than calling it a true FKT that others could repeat.

The only thing one can do is be transparent. Record what you did and hold your head high.
Not being as familiar with the PCT... with fire issues the 're-route' becomes the official trail for that season... but when it gets to be too much then at best you note it as Peter did and let the chips fall where they may.
At worst you abort or invalidate the attempt completely.

Williamson took a pretty extreme line on the subject at one point... insisting on following his version of the PCT, ignoring closures, walking through fires and other choices.
Respectably badass... but ultimately crossing that 'undue burden' line. An attempt 10 years later can't be expected to recut an abandoned section of trail or willfully violate a reroute of the trail just to perfectly match bink's hike. FKT's have to be repeatable with a realistic standard of guidelines to follow.
In today's age- it also doesn't jive with respecting the trail managers and community as a whole very well either to demand such standards of those who follow.

Is it 1%, .05%... who knows?
Can you do make up miles?
If a section of the shennies was forced onto the parkway for a few miles I don't think anyone would have a huge issue.
If you rerouted a few mile road walk around a section in the whites though... you'd have to kill the hike.

With the weather events taking place now... this will become a serious issue that may require more flexibility.
But is that fair to penalize a hiker who had a 'safe' year?

If Jen didn't run into a storm and get hypothermia in the whites could we play the what if game and assume her time would still stand? Or would we assume that all those who followed would rewrite their effort to match?

Poop occurs.

My personal opinion... tough ****. Be it flooded streams in maine or burning woods... there are so many factors out of your control that you simply have to accept them. In some cases you overcome it, in some the pile of poop is too deep to dig out of.
Joey Camps tore his quad or Karel ran into a fire: both random and unforeseen events that are part of what makes a successful FKT inspirational. The woods isn't all that interested in fair really.
All sympathy to that person on a personal level.
But a record is impersonal by nature and you can no more earn one for being nice than you can sneak in behind a tough break.

The irony is that we deeply respect any who honestly try.
As Jen pointed out... it's all the dishonesty that we dislike.

Perhaps the simplest way to see it...
If it was your record and someone wanted to claim some exception; 'but this happened', a detour, or other qualifier to justify the trip; would you accept it as valid to bump you off the podium?
More importantly; since nobody really owns the record itself... does removing this asterisk tarnish the record itself?
Does it maintain or add to the standard or dilute it?

Those are all questions that Peter and Buzz would like those involved to explore.
Each FKT is as unique as the trail it takes place on. So local tradition and guidelines trump all. The overall rules are just that- overall.
They can't foresee specific issues with each trail or FKT so that's why the participant is asked to clearly state those standards prior to an attempt.
Past holders or participants have a larger say perhaps... but again if someone is just setting up undue burdens to hurdle then that must be struck down as well.

The weather issues are new. Great debate exists on if they are permanent.
There may come a time when up to 100 miles or more of fire re-routes may become needed for the PCT. Sadly for the AT even.

So overall the standard remains to match or exceed the standard set by those who have come before you.
If Bink found a clean enough season to set the record... and Heather was able to come along and do the same... no reason another cannot either.
Until something changes... we can record and acknowledge Karel's effort with it's notable exceptions.
If he proves to do well on the AT, the fact that Peter recorded his PCT trip only adds weight to any current claim he may present... It may even cause some to reevaluate their opinion of his previous efforts.

As a wise woman once said- Hold the record lightly.
Matt might add- but defend the record itself fiercely.

If one is so lucky as to have it all come together and attach their name to it for a brief bit... it only has true value if the nearly impossible standard is maintained.

[MuddyWaters]

I think its implicit that in a fkt as long as AT, PCT, etc, with as many chance variables, some things will go your way, and some against you. What is assumed....and is likely true, is that it all averages out.

My wife would get mad at me when my kids teams lost a close game at high level competition. due to questionable call or something, and I didnt get upset. Last time was ncaa softball super regional last yr. I explained to her, "you cant focus on only one thing. There were often many similar instances in close contests. Some go for you, some against you. " If it comes down to just 1 thing making the difference, we didnt clearly deserve to win" . So be mad at us for what we failed to do, instead of at the other team for 1 call that went their way.

I see same philosophy needing to be applied to fkt. Yeah, eventually stars align for someone and they will put up an impossible time. Thats the breaks.

[Traillium]

Kudos to Harvey for continuing and best of luck on finishing his hike.

… Snip … snip … snip …

The only clearly defined one is a 2200 mile long line a few footprints wide.
It only exists because thousands and thousands of people every year volunteer to preserve it.
So really all you can do is try not to cross it.

This whole thread is one of the best I’ve ever read on WhiteBlaze.

You whole lot are a fascinating bunch — thanks!

[TravisRex]

Interesting to see the challenge of Mahoosuc via the tracker.

The triangle in the lower left corner is from 3:31 pm. The one in the upper right is 5:28 pm. The distance reported by the tracker during those 2 hours? 0.9 miles.
43127

[Just Bill]

Interesting to see the challenge of Mahoosuc via the tracker.

The triangle in the lower left corner is from 3:31 pm. The one in the upper right is 5:28 pm. The distance reported by the tracker during those 2 hours? 0.9 miles.
43127
The 'hardest mile' or the funnest mile depending on how you view the world. :D

If you go over the top you can do it in 30-45 min... but better safe than sorry at this point.

[pbakwin]

There was a lot of discussion on our old FKT website about the nuances of PCT re-routes and what that means for an FKT, with some strong feelings on all sides. As I understand it, for several years now it has been impossible to legally hike the "official" PCT due to (mostly) fire reroutes always being in effect somewhere or other. You might say that Scott Williamson (?) still has the FKT since he might be the last person to hike the "official" route quickly. Or, you could say that an FKT is valid as long as the person follows all "official" reroutes, which is what Karel did, and what Stringbean did before him, as I understand. I think this is (way) less of an issue on the AT?

I look forward to following Karel's attempt, starting next week! Good luck to him.

fastestknowntime.com
Twitter @fastestknown

[jdx1177]

WOW! This is some very interesting conversation. I love all the "heavy weights" weighing in with very valuable insight. It is much appreciated and I'm loving all of it. Unfortunately almost none of this has anything to do with Harvey or his attempt and should be in a separate thread. Occasionally mentioning his name does not justify how far this has deviated. Are we taking advantage because pmags is preoccupied with another adventure? Lol,

[jdx1177]

I was lucky enough to come across Harvey last Monday on my first day out doing a section of the Long Trail. It was Totally random I had kinda lost track of where he was leading up to my trip, being busy with packing and work, and was pleasantly surprised when I saw the van with his name on the side setup on a forest service road I was crossing. I said hello to his dad and asked if Harvey had come through yet. He said he hadn't. His dad all but insisted on topping off my water because it was so hot, which I gladly accepted. Harvey came trotting in. He had just put in 21 miles in 90 degree humid heat. He said he had actually laid in a creek earlier that day to cool down. I said a real quick hello finished my snack and said I'll see you soon as you're passing me and headed out. He caught me in about a mile or so and I moved over to let him through. He slowed his pace and we chatted for the next couple of miles. All I can say is what a class act and such a nice guy. I really wasn't looking to slow him down but he asked me all kinds of questions about my life and I tried to gently warn him about NH and how it's tough but so beautiful. Then as he was pulling away saying his goodbye I shouted "if you can avoid it do not go down the backside of mt moosilauke at night!" My one meager piece of trail advice I could offer to someone who clearly didn't need it. Lol

[Just Bill]

WOW! This is some very interesting conversation. I love all the "heavy weights" weighing in with very valuable insight. It is much appreciated and I'm loving all of it. Unfortunately almost none of this has anything to do with Harvey or his attempt and should be in a separate thread. Occasionally mentioning his name does not justify how far this has deviated. Are we taking advantage because pmags is preoccupied with another adventure? Lol,

Ha! To paraphrase myself from last year:
Fer the 100 or so of us interested in these trips... these threads turn into our mutual water cooler to catch up with each other. 'Watching' a FKT leaves lots of time to fill up with having a good ol fashioned gum flappin session. Nothing against Harvey, just happens to be the thread we are on this season having a little group chat. Speedy folks are efficient so we can get er all done in one place.

As fer Mags; he could care less. Unlike the rest of us jackholes he's out hiking. :D

[Just Bill]

There was a lot of discussion on our old FKT website about the nuances of PCT re-routes and what that means for an FKT, with some strong feelings on all sides. As I understand it, for several years now it has been impossible to legally hike the "official" PCT due to (mostly) fire reroutes always being in effect somewhere or other. You might say that Scott Williamson (?) still has the FKT since he might be the last person to hike the "official" route quickly. Or, you could say that an FKT is valid as long as the person follows all "official" reroutes, which is what Karel did, and what Stringbean did before him, as I understand. I think this is (way) less of an issue on the AT?

I look forward to following Karel's attempt, starting next week! Good luck to him.

fastestknowntime.com
Twitter @fastestknown
Before this year... I'd have said no problem on the AT. Short of minor/local maintenance routing the AT is pretty locked in (99%+). Probably one of the few in the country I can think of.
But it seems non-politically termed weather events have reached the AT as well so at some point this type of controversy is inevitable I'd think.

Off hand... sounds as if Heather had the last 'clean' hike. But more for PCT folks to discuss I think.
The AT does have less 'extreme' sections and many hikers consider road miles a severe penalty... we just ain't used to pounding pavement. Most would take 15 miles of typical trail over 10 miles of pavement.
That said, I still agree with you overall... those who know the nuances of each trail are best suited to comment on what effect a detour really has.

The bigger the trail, the bigger the risk. Not everyone has the opportunity to do what Williamson did and accept defeat more years than not when things didn't work out.
For the average hiker... you're out on a 6 month 2000+ mile trip. It makes little sense to 'cancel' or invalidate a casual hike as the point is truly the journey. That's really the only reason that hikers accept the 'official' route idea as the overall journey is the priority and your once in a lifetime hike isn't going to be canceled over some seasonal variation. But there are hikers who do head home and many who would consider missing the sierra, the whites, or other critical sections with regret if they continue. There are many hikers who consider the hike incomplete until those sections are returned to and made up.

On a personal level; it sucks. But these big trail FKT's are basically a long series of all-in wagers where anything can go wrong. I look at a wildfire closure or serious reroute the same way I see injury, trenchfoot, crew issues or any other hazard involved. Nobody felt bad for Karl when it rained too much and his feet got wet... and the accomplishment was that much sweeter after the third attempt. Everyone has a lot invested on a long hike...just because an individual worked really hard and otherwise did well with what they could control doesn't justify a pass for something they could not control.

Official route is the route of the trail outlined for that year at the start of the season. That's why the AT doesn't niggle over the mile or two variations from year to year.

Williamson insisting that people follow a now defunct trail route is not acceptable. The trail can get rerouted for something as simple as moving from private land with easement to public land. In some cases the easement was withdrawn because of hikers violating or misusing such easements. More often though they are simply done in order to guarantee the stability of the trail via permanent land acquisition.

Joey Camp's first trip on the AT was crushed by a hurricane. It didn't cause an official trail closure or official reroute but the result was the same- FKT over. Williamson and plenty of others have been slowed by blowdowns from massive storms and other events too, dozens of people you never hear of abort trips for these reasons.

The intraseason re-routes due to fire are not 'official trail'... they are simply the safe alternative offered so that hikers who have committed to walking for months at a time do not have to abort the journey or risk their lives to continue. And I fully buy the idea of 'what's a hundred miles on a 2600 mile personal journey' argument for the average hiker... but not for a FKT.

As of now- Karel (and perhaps Stringbean) represent an example of one.
If it were to prove over time that completing the PCT without serious closures occurring is the new reality; then the FKT can change.
But as it sits it mainly looks like another FKT that suffered a bad break. And multiple efforts preceding his exception to their accomplishment.

Joey 'bested' Matt Kirk's time his first trip on the AT. He earned much admiration and recognition for the trip, but not the record itself.
Joey also got bested by Stringbean during what would otherwise have been an amazing FKT performance. However not getting the record did nothing to diminish his hike and his effort last year.
Holding himself to that high standard, keeping it together and putting up a mind boggling time is more than enough trophy for his shelf.
What Karel is messing up is that NOT earning the FKT takes nothing away from his accomplishment, but claiming it with exception does take something away from the FKT itself.

PS- as always... Kudos to you for both noting the accomplishment and the exceptions.
Recording the effort regardless allows us to revisit the hike. Karel may be the exception... or the first of many. Time will tell and the history will be there to read.

[TravisRex]

I was lucky enough to come across Harvey last Monday on my first day out doing a section of the Long Trail. It was Totally random I had kinda lost track of where he was leading up to my trip, being busy with packing and work, and was pleasantly surprised when I saw the van with his name on the side setup on a forest service road I was crossing. I said hello to his dad and asked if Harvey had come through yet. He said he hadn't. His dad all but insisted on topping off my water because it was so hot, which I gladly accepted. Harvey came trotting in. He had just put in 21 miles in 90 degree humid heat. He said he had actually laid in a creek earlier that day to cool down. I said a real quick hello finished my snack and said I'll see you soon as you're passing me and headed out. He caught me in about a mile or so and I moved over to let him through. He slowed his pace and we chatted for the next couple of miles. All I can say is what a class act and such a nice guy. I really wasn't looking to slow him down but he asked me all kinds of questions about my life and I tried to gently warn him about NH and how it's tough but so beautiful. Then as he was pulling away saying his goodbye I shouted "if you can avoid it do not go down the backside of mt moosilauke at night!" My one meager piece of trail advice I could offer to someone who clearly didn't need it. Lol

This is fantastic to hear, and I hope indicative of the interactions that people have had with Harvey over these past (checks calendar) 44 days.

We're hoping that Harvey makes it to ME 27 tonight which would put him over the 2,000 mile mark (2002.7) at the start of day 45. With, oh let's say another 20 miles during the first 12 hours and 15 minutes of day 45 (or through 5:48 pm), Harvey will end up falling short of the record by about 170 miles. We're still hopeful for sneaking in under 50 days (I've sticking with my 49 day, 8 hour prediction).

On the topic of reroutes, a few years ago a landowner removed access from a 1.6 mile section of the Superior Hiking Trail - a 300 mile trail from Duluth MN up to the Canadian border following Lake Superior (though you can't see the lake on most of the trail). In this case, the land owner was frustrated by poor behavior of hikers - here's an article (http://www.startribune.com/property-owner-boots-superior-hiking-trail-off-land-forcing-detour/301601731/) . This revised section is now part of the "official" route and FKT.com recognizes only the times after this reroute. (I'm trying to talk a friend of mine into going after the FKT which seems a little soft at 8 days, but that's another topic entirely).

And in this case there was an incredibly easy reroute - there's a paved bike trail running nearly parallel to the trail, and the detour changed the distance by only a few miles. But it's easy to think about what could have happened if this had been in more remote section. Or if there was a group of landowners who said "we're done."

One of the things that caught us off-guard a bit with Harvey's attempt was a section of "new trail" down in VA that wasn't on our trail map from 2017 - the local group had built a new section of trail slightly west of the existing trail down in VA that apparently "opened" in April - I think it was down near Sugar Run Gap. It caught us off-guard when he suddenly wasn't tracking on the trail map that we were using, but after some freaking out we were finally able to figure out what was going on.

[Just Bill]

Under 50 days is an accomplishment only a handful of folks on the planet can claim.
Regardless of the FKT Harvey's a winner. Hikers in particular deeply respect the choice to finish his trip.

Perhaps not everyone here is familiar with the details of the SHT reroute but we are all familiar with similar cautionary tales. Most trails are much more fragile than people realize. It's only the last decade or so that the easements and allotments for the AT have been mainly eliminated. Many trails sit on land with access assured by little more than a handshake or a kind owner. From a family choosing to sell the land to hiker's getting themselves kicked off it's an issue. It's actually pretty shocking if you really look how few of our 'national scenic trails' are truly trails. Most are routes, handshakes, and hope that drawing the line on the map will eventually result in preserving one on the ground.

On the AT... the land owner frustrated by the hikers is Baxter State Park.
And no easy solution exists nor can you find another Katahdin on this earth to replace it.

Ultimately what happened on the SHT or other trails is the underlying fear driving the trail community and shaping the opinions of those who comment on the FKT impacts.
That story has been told hundreds of times on the AT itself really but very few times have the stakes been so high.

On it's face its an easy thing to dismiss as an overreaction... a bit like screaming hysterically at yer kid chasing a ball because you're terrified they may wander into the street.
Everyone feels a little silly afterwards and confused by the emotion displayed.

Hope nobody feels picked on or picked apart.
Those doing it are huge fans of FKT's and respect those who participate pretty deeply.
Could even go so far as to say they love em.
They just love the trail a bit more and want to remind everyone how dangerously close to the street we are playing.

[rickb]

We're still hopeful for sneaking in under 50 days (I've sticking with my 49 day, 8 hour prediction).

FWIW, You can count me among those who is even more impressed by those who push themselves to such limits long after the possibility of getting the FKT has slipped away.

Way to go!

Its great to go for the laurels, but obviously there is a whole lot more to these runs than just winning biggly.

Perhaps someday the AT will be blessed to see a whole bunch of runners going for their own personal records — even if the super-human numbers are way, way out of reach. Without the fanfare, but just as special for those who take on such a challenge.

[TravisRex]

FWIW, You can count me among those who is even more impressed by those who push themselves to such limits long after the possibility of getting the FKT has slipped away.

Way to go!

Its great to go for the laurels, but obviously there is a whole lot more to these runs than just winning biggly.

Perhaps someday the AT will be blessed to see a whole bunch of runners going for their own personal records — even if the super-human numbers are way, way out of reach. Without the fanfare, but just as special for those who take on such a challenge.

Here's how I put it in a post on the Facebook group last night:

The crew map that we use starts at a zoomed out view where the entire trail fills the screen. Each day I've opened it and watched the black triangles move further and further northeast - not as fast as we hoped but still pretty damn fast. I don't know what it was about today but I paused for a second before zooming in today and just looked at the map. Georgia to Maine. Just a handful of days remaining (give or take a few fingers).

Days like today make my job easy. Here's the only stopping point that makes sense. Here are the options for the next three days. Good luck. I know for me it's going to feel strange to not spend my free time pouring over books and maps and calculating miles per hour on a daily basis and I can only imagine the emotions that Harvey must be feeling as each footstep brings him one step closer to the end of this adventure. There's no FKT prize at the end but I have to imagine sunsets like tonight, running with his dad, and the thousands of other little moments have made this all seem worthwhile.

[brew]

Well said. Harvey will carry his memories way past the trail. And if you’re anything like me, you’ll remember poring over the maps and data books for a long time, too followi along when others are in the thick of it and be glad it’s not you. But deep down, also miss it a little. 👍
Here's how I put it in a post on the Facebook group last night:

The crew map that we use starts at a zoomed out view where the entire trail fills the screen. Each day I've opened it and watched the black triangles move further and further northeast - not as fast as we hoped but still pretty damn fast. I don't know what it was about today but I paused for a second before zooming in today and just looked at the map. Georgia to Maine. Just a handful of days remaining (give or take a few fingers).

Days like today make my job easy. Here's the only stopping point that makes sense. Here are the options for the next three days. Good luck. I know for me it's going to feel strange to not spend my free time pouring over books and maps and calculating miles per hour on a daily basis and I can only imagine the emotions that Harvey must be feeling as each footstep brings him one step closer to the end of this adventure. There's no FKT prize at the end but I have to imagine sunsets like tonight, running with his dad, and the thousands of other little moments have made this all seem worthwhile.

[Odd Man Out]

If I have it figured right, Harvey's deadline was Saturday around 6:15 PM. It looks like he came up about 169 miles short.





Harvey

StringBean





Day
Location
Day Miles
Location
Day Miles
Ahead of Pace


30-May
0
Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus

Springer Mtn/AT Southern Terminus




31-May
1
Unicoi Gap/GA Hwy 75
52.3
Low Gap Shelter
42.6
9.7


1-Jun
2
Rock Gap Shelter/USFS Rd 67
53.1
Standing Indian Shelter
43.1
19.7


2-Jun
3
Stecoah Gap/NC Hwy 143
44.9
Nantahala, NC/US Hwy 19/74
50.8
13.8


3-Jun
4
Clingmans Dome Tower
49.3
Spence Field Shelter/Eagle Creek Trail
46.8
16.3


4-Jun
5
Davenport Gap/NC Hwy 32
39.1
Cosby Knob Shelter
47.4
8.0


5-Jun
6
Log Cabin Rd
52.1
Hot Springs, NC/NC Hwy 209
43.6
16.5


6-Jun
7
Spivey Gap/US Hwy 19W
42.0
Bald Mtn Shelter
52.7
5.8


7-Jun
8
Roan Mountain, TN/US Hwy 19E
62.0
Roan High Knob Shelter
51.5
16.3


8-Jun
9
Iron Mtn Shelter
49.2
Watauga Lake Shelter
51.5
14.0


9-Jun
10
Elk Garden/VA Rd 600
50.3
Saunders Shelter
49.6
14.7


10-Jun
11
Partnership Shelter/VA Hwy 16
39.2
Partnership Shelter/VA Hwy 16
53.9
0.0


11-Jun
12
Laurel Creek/VA Rd 615
50.8
Jenkins Shelter/Hunting Camp Creek
46.4
4.4


12-Jun
13
Pearisburg, VA/VA Hwy 100
52.2
Cross Ave/VA Rd 793
55.6
1.0


13-Jun
14
Rocky Gap/VA Rd 601
34.8
Craig Creek/VA Rd 621
52.8
-17.0


14-Jun
15
Catawba, VA/VA Hwy 311
38.1
Daleville, VA/US Hwy 220
40.9
-19.8


15-Jun
16
Bearwallow Gap/BRP 90.9
41.4
Thunder Hill
44.8
-23.2


16-Jun
17
Robinson Gap Rd/VA Rd 607
46.4
Woodworth Shelter/Lovingston Trail
47.8
-24.6


17-Jun
18
Reids Gap/VA Rd 664/BRP 13.6
46.7
Calf Mtn Shelter
48.9
-26.8


18-Jun
19
Black Rock Gap/Skyline 87.4
39.1
Lewis Spring/Big Meadows Wayside
53.9
-41.6


19-Jun
20
Skyland Loop Rd
50.6
Goose Creek/VA Rd 638
52.5
-43.5


20-Jun
21
Whiskey Hollow Shelter
52.4
Loudoun Heights
45.1
-36.2


21-Jun
22
Rocky Run Shelter
54.2
South Mtn, PA/PA Hwy 233
56.7
-38.7


22-Jun
23
Woodrow Rd
58.5
Conodoguinet Creek/Bernheisel Bridge Rd
54.1
-34.3


23-Jun
24
Peters Mtn Rd/PA Hwy 225
57.8
Yellow Springs
39.5
-16.0


24-Jun
25
Shartlesville Rd
55.3
Windsor Furnace Shelter
52.1
-12.8


25-Jun
26
Bake Oven Knob Rd
38.3
Leroy Smith Shelter
50.0
-24.5


26-Jun
27
Beulah Trail
47.9
Gren Anderson Shelter/Stony Brook
51.5
-28.1


27-Jun
28
Lake Wallkill Rd
52.8
Mombasha Mtn/Allis Trail
52.1
-27.4


28-Jun
29
Seven Lakes Dr
48.9
RPH Shelter/Hortontown Rd
51.9
-30.4


29-Jun
30
AT Metro Station/NY Hwy 22/55
50.3
Caesar Brook Campsite
52.0
-32.1


30-Jun
31
Carse Brook/Cornwall Rd
34.3
Tyringham, MA/Jerusalem Rd
59.0
-56.8


1-Jul
32
Blue Hill Rd
47.0
Wilbur Clearing Shelter/Notch Rd
49.2
-59.0


2-Jul
33
Cheshire, MA/Hoosic River
47.4
Stratton Pond Shelter
50.8
-62.4


3-Jul
34
Dunville Hollow/VT Hwy 9
33.0
GovernorClement Shelter
50.2
-79.6


4-Jul
35
Mad Tom Notch/USFS Rd 21
45.6
Norwich, VT/Elm St
55.0
-89.0


5-Jul
36
Sargent Brook/USFS Rd 13
33.1
Oliverian Brook/NH Hwy 25
45.7
-101.6


6-Jul
37
Tigertown Brook/VT Hwy 14
48.9
Liberty Springs Camp
28.4
-81.1


7-Jul
38
Baker Pond Brook/NH Hwy 25A
43.0
Ripley Falls Trail
24.6
-62.7


8-Jul
39
Lonesome Lake Hut/Fishin Jimmy Trail
32.6
Carter Dome/Rainbow Trail
33.6
-63.7


9-Jul
40
Zealand Falls Hut
22.9
Mahoosuc Notch/South End
36.9
-77.7


10-Jul
41
Pinkham Notch/NH Hwy 16
33.7
Spruce Mtn
42.7
-86.7


11-Jul
42
Trident Pass
28.0
Crocker Cirque Campsite
37.2
-95.9


12-Jul
43
Grafton Notch/ME Hwy 26
24.2
Kennebec River
44.0
-115.7


13-Jul
44
Rumford Rd/ME Hwy 17
33.7
North Pond Brook
40.8
-122.8


14-Jul
45
Carrabassett River/Caribou Valley Rd
36.9
Mud Pond
57.6
-143.5


14-Jul
45.51
Jerome Brook/Long Falls Dam Rd
28.0
Mt Katahdin/AT Northern Terminus
53.1
-168.6

[Odd Man Out]

BTW, if you want to chart the next FKT attempt, you can use this spreadsheet.
In the first tab, type in the date the challenger begins in the first cell of the date column.
Then enter where the challenger gets to one each day. The data for Stringbean has already been entered.
Then go to the second tab to get the side by side comparison.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m5w4hrn12vuedi7/AT_FKT_Chart.xlsx?dl=0

[Odd Man Out]

PS - You will need to download the file to your own computer and open it in Excel for it to work.

[jdx1177]

Just read that he swam across the Kennebec. Pretty cool.

[TravisRex]

Hey OddManOut -

Here's what I have noted down on my side. I used the 2018 AT Data Book and figured the mileage for the day based on the stopping point for that day minus the stopping point for the previous day. The final column is the distance I have vs the distance that you have. Obviously it all evens out in the end...

The RoadiD tracker was pretty consistent, though after we uploaded a new version of the trail line the distance between "actual" and what the tracker was showing slowly kept growing. I think these days it's about 5 miles off - though over a 2000 mile trail, that's 0.25% off, so we'll take that as far as accuracy goes. I know one of the guys who helped develop the tracker - and has his masters in GIS (aka mapping stuff) - is actually annoyed that it's that far off.

(Apologies for how this formatted...)

31-May 1 Unicoi Gap/GA Hwy 75 52.3 1 52.4 Unicoi Gap 0.1
1-Jun 2 Rock Gap Shelter/USFS Rd 67 53.1 2 105.5 53.1 Rock Gap 0
2-Jun 3 Stecoah Gap/NC Hwy 143 44.9 3 150.3 44.8 Stecoah Gap -0.1
3-Jun 4 Clingmans Dome Tower 49.3 4 197.8 47.5 Clingman Dome -1.8
4-Jun 5 Davenport Gap/NC Hwy 32 39.1 5 236 38.2 Davenport Gap -0.9
5-Jun 6 Log Cabin Rd 52.1 6 287.6 51.6 Allen Gap -0.5
6-Jun 7 Spivey Gap/US Hwy 19W 42 7 332.7 45.1 Spivey Gap 3.1
7-Jun 8 Roan Mountain, TN/US Hwy 19E 62 8 394.8 62.1 19E 0.1
8-Jun 9 Iron Mtn Shelter 49.2 9 443.8 49 Iron Mountain Shelter -0.2
9-Jun 10 Elk Garden/VA Rd 600 50.3 10 494.3 50.5 VA 600 0.2
10-Jun 11 Partnership Shelter/VA Hwy 16 39.2 11 533.7 39.4 VA 16 - 0.2
11-Jun 12 Laurel Creek/VA Rd 615 50.8 12 584.3 50.6 VA 615 -0.2
12-Jun 13 Pearisburg, VA/VA Hwy 100 52.2 13 635.5 51.2 VA 624 -1
13-Jun 14 Rocky Gap/VA Rd 601 34.8 14 671.3 35.8 VA 42 - 1
14-Jun 15 Catawba, VA/VA Hwy 311 38.1 15 709.4 38.1 VA 311 - Catawba 0
15-Jun 16 Bearwallow Gap/BRP 90.9 41.4 16 749.1 39.7 VA 43 - Mile 90.9 -1.7
16-Jun 17 Robinson Gap Rd/VA Rd 607 46.4 17 797.2 48.1 1.7
17-Jun 18 Reids Gap/VA Rd 664/BRP 13.6 46.7 18 843.9 46.7 Reeds Gap - 664 0
18-Jun 19 Black Rock Gap/Skyline 87.4 39.1 19 883 39.1 Blackrock Gap 0
19-Jun 20 Skyland Loop Rd 50.6 20 933.6 50.6 Skyland Service Rd North 0
20-Jun 21 Whiskey Hollow Shelter 52.4 21 987 53.4 Manassas Gap Shelter 1
21-Jun 22 Rocky Run Shelter 54.2 22 1038.6 51.6 lambs knoll -2.6
22-Jun 23 Woodrow Rd 58.5 23 1098.7 60.1 Woodrow rd 1.6
23-Jun 24 Peters Mtn Rd/PA Hwy 225 57.8 24 1156.5 57.8 pa 225 0
24-Jun 25 Shartlesville Rd 55.3 25 1210.3 53.8 camping s of port Clinton -1.5
25-Jun 26 Bake Oven Knob Rd 38.3 26 1250.1 39.8 bake knob 1.5
26-Jun 27 Beulah Trail 47.9 27 1305.2 55.1 Camp Road 7.2
27-Jun 28 Lake Wallkill Rd 52.8 28 1351 45.8 Lake Wallkill Rd -7
28-Jun 29 Seven Lakes Dr 48.9 29 1392.7 41.7 Seven Lakes -7.2
29-Jun 30 AT Metro Station/NY Hwy 22/55 50.3 30 1450 57.3 NY 22 7
30-Jun 31 Carse Brook/Cornwall Rd 34.3 31 1484.3 34.3 West Cornell Rd 0
1-Jul 32 Blue Hill Rd 47 32 1531.3 47 Blue Hill Rd 0
2-Jul 33 Cheshire, MA/Hoosic River 47.4 33 1579.3 48 Mass 8 0.6
3-Jul 34 Dunville Hollow/VT Hwy 9 33 34 1611.7 32.4 VT 9 -0.6
4-Jul 35 Mad Tom Notch/USFS Rd 21 45.6 35 1657.3 45.6 Mad Tom Notch 0
5-Jul 36 Sargent Brook/USFS Rd 13 33.1 36 1691.3 34 Clement Shelter 0.9
6-Jul 37 Tigertown Brook/VT Hwy 14 48.9 37 1738.9 47.6 vt 14 -1.3
7-Jul 38 Baker Pond Brook/NH Hwy 25A 43 38 1782.3 43.4 NH 25A 0.4
8-Jul 39 Lonesome Lake Hut/Fishin Jimmy Trail 32.6 39 1814.9 32.6 lonesome hut 0
9-Jul 40 Zealand Falls Hut 22.9 40 1837.8 22.9 Zealand hut 0
10-Jul 41 Pinkham Notch/NH Hwy 16 33.7 41 1871.5 33.7 Pinkham notch 0
11-Jul 42 Trident Pass 28 42 1900 28.5 backcountry n of gorham (estimated mileage) 0.5
12-Jul 43 Grafton Notch/ME Hwy 26 24.2 43 1923.7 23.7 ME 26 - Grafton Notch -0.5
13-Jul 44 Rumford Rd/ME Hwy 17 33.7 44 1957.4 33.7 ME 17 0
14-Jul 45 Carrabassett River/Caribou Valley Rd 36.9 45 1994.4 37 caribou valley rd 0.1
14-Jul 45.51 Jerome Brook/Long Falls Dam Rd 28 46 2031.5 37.1 carry place rd 9.1

[Just Bill]

Home stretch! Best wishes for a safe finish to Harvey.

Hikers (back when we read maps) have a saying; 'Between the contour lines'.
The North end of the Long trail is a great example; in bit of trail between each 50' contour line interval you may find yourself stepping down 5' to climb a 15-20' ledge, rising up 70' over a hump then dipping back down 20' feet after it to come back to 'level'. We use a roundabout guestimate of miles based upon the area to round up from map to actual.


I did site work with a Trimble system for a few years. x and y (2 dimensions) were always pretty accurate... well under an 1" of actual location. But elevation (even in Illinois) was always messy. At best you'd be within a tenth (1 1/4") on any given shot (ping). That's if you don't get any interference. For the most part even in ideal conditions (open pancaked building site) it would work for about half the day. When the satelites got into the wrong spot, a cloud or tree got in the way, etc... you'd get a 6-18" bounce in location. As a result I'm always pretty impressed that a device like a Spot puts you as close to the trail in dense woods as it does.

With all the micro up and downs "between the contour lines" you'd need one hell of an impressive overlay on top of the geodesic GPS grid to sort out a trail like the AT.
I'd think you'd need a dozen or more 'tracks' worth of individually shot hikes to average out and evenly generate a fairly accurate x,y,z line for the AT. Might even take several re-shoots in places.

Point being- 5 miles over 2000k is mighty impressive as a result.:D
Tell your buddy good enough indeed.

I'd probably guess the data book is at fault too... you measure enough sections in tenths of miles and some rounding errors are bound to accumulate.
That happens on most of the self supported hikes we track.

[Odd Man Out]

Recently someone posted a pretty cool web page for charting distances and elevations.

https://bentwells.shinyapps.io/atdata/

This is where I got the data for my spreadsheet. I copied and pasted into a spreadsheet. He said it is based on the 2018 data from the ATC.

[TrailRunnerGuy]

15-Jun 16 Bearwallow Gap/BRP 90.9 41.4 16 749.1 39.7 VA 43 - Mile 90.9 -1.7

Just a very minor correction, this stop was actually Mills Gap, which is a mile or two short (south) of Bearwallow Gap. I got this picture at the start of the day https://www.facebook.com/harveylewisultrarunner/photos/a.1670587486499214.1073741829.1666623710228925/2569254399965847/?type=3&theater and I know Harvey took a photo at the end of the day before, because we had to camp elsewhere. I mention it not to be picky, but in case you are trying to compare the GPS track to this log and are off a couple of miles here, you'll know why.

[TrailRunnerGuy]

Since it looks like Harvey may be pushing the end of day 49 to finish in under 50 days, I'm wondering about Baxter State Park rules. I know he needs to get a permit card in person at the ranger station. Are there only certain hours for that? If he gets to the park after that time, does he need to wait until morning, which would put him over 50 days? I took a quick look at the park web site and saw the part about the permit card but I didn't see anything about hours.

[TravisRex]

Recently someone posted a pretty cool web page for charting distances and elevations.

https://bentwells.shinyapps.io/atdata/

This is where I got the data for my spreadsheet. I copied and pasted into a spreadsheet. He said it is based on the 2018 data from the ATC.

Ooh that's a great application!

Since we're almost wrapped up, I'll walk you through some of the technical approach that we used for this, and by all means if you want more of an explanation, I'm glad to explain what I can.

The original version of the "trail line" came from this - https://thetrek.co/thru-hiker-resources/appalachian-trail-interactive-map/ One of the GIS guys (Louis) grabbed the KML file and converted it to a File Geodatabase using ArcGIS. This gave us not only the trail line but also an indication of "parking areas." We looked at a couple of other "trail lines" including http://topofusion.com/at-gps.php but despite having 300,000+ way points gives the length of the trail as only 2109.94 miles. But ultimately the trail line we used would be 2189.1 miles - close enough.

During a section where Harvey appeared to be off-track, we realized that the trail line we were using didn't include the most recent updates, so we grabbed the latest version from the NPS. https://nps.maps.arcgis.com/home/index.html

(When we first started, the GIS page at the ATC didn't have the link available otherwise we would have just used that - https://appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/gis-data, but in retrospect, getting the data with the parking areas was a huge help)

From there we manually entered all of the road crossings from the 2018 AT Data book into a database which allowed us to easily know the distance between points. Using some kind of GIS magic, one of the guys (Matt) was able to highlight on the map all of the roads which crossed the trail, and with the data from the data book we were able to correct the mileage for each of those crossing (seriously, magic).

We then took and added way points for the daily stops for Stringbean, Jurek, and JPD (We didn't include Speedgoat for reasons I don't remember) so we could see where Harvey was ahead/behind of the goal.

We took and generated a couple of versions of the plan - one breaking each day using "Price is Right" rules (as close to 52 miles each day without going over), one that followed Stringbean's mileage but using road crossings instead of campsites, and a version that was frankly just a bit of "eh, that sounds good."

Once we got a hold of the InReach tracker, Matt started playing around with it and was able to get each waypoint written to an AWS database. So every 10 minutes a new point gets uploaded to inReach, we read that point from that site, and write it in to our own database (among other things this gives us a complete and permanent record that we don't have to pay inReach to store). Then in more "magic," Matt wrote a KML layer that reads data from the database and plots each point on a map with the most recent timestamped location getting the "Harvey head" marker and everything else indicated with a triangle.

So we had a map where we could track Harvey, see his position, and see where he was compared to others. Cool.

Then the work began to create a streamlined version that we could embed in the RoadiD tracking site that simplified the map a bit and removed any information about road crossing or competition. Matt worked with one of their developers and created the version that you see at https://www.roadid.com/pages/wheresharvey.

There's a few other projects that we spun up for this (we kind of used this as a bit of a "real-world" learning exercise):

- Creation of a "Where's Harvey" skill for Alexa that allows someone to use the Alexa functionality to get an update on Harvey's current mileage. This was surprisingly useful (at least for me) to just be able to yell at Alexa and get the up to date mileage.

- Creation of a Perl based "HarveyTrack 3000" where from any starting point it would chart out the next 3 days with road crossings in a particular range (say 38-58 miles with a goal average of 51 miles per day). The final decision was made by Harvey's dad and the rest of the crew but we were at least able to tell them when a particular stop had the potential to cause problems down the line.

- A 3D tracking map. Not a lot of functionality but it looks cool.
43157

- Automatically embedding Facebook posts on the map based on timestamp. This one never got fully implemented, but we did a proof of concept where if Harvey did a video at 9 am, you would see a little icon on the map and be able to click it and watch the video.

And yes, the irony of spending hours of programming and technical skills on what fundamentally is a walk through the woods is not lost on me. I've spent hours inside to help others (who are also inside) be able to track the one guy who's moving all day long.

[TravisRex]

Just a very minor correction, this stop was actually Mills Gap, which is a mile or two short (south) of Bearwallow Gap. I got this picture at the start of the day https://www.facebook.com/harveylewisultrarunner/photos/a.1670587486499214.1073741829.1666623710228925/2569254399965847/?type=3&theater and I know Harvey took a photo at the end of the day before, because we had to camp elsewhere. I mention it not to be picky, but in case you are trying to compare the GPS track to this log and are off a couple of miles here, you'll know why.

That's for that! I'll update my notes.

[Angle]

TravisRex,
Not a big deal, but if you want to correct the data for June 30th he stopped at Mt. Easter Rd. mile 1486.3 not West Cornwall Rd.

[TravisRex]

TravisRex,
Not a big deal, but if you want to correct the data for June 30th he stopped at Mt. Easter Rd. mile 1486.3 not West Cornwall Rd.

Updated. Thanks!

[jdx1177]

Ooh that's a great application!

Since we're almost wrapped up, I'll walk you through some of the technical approach that we used for this, and by all means if you want more of an explanation, I'm glad to explain what I can.

The original version of the "trail line" came from this - https://thetrek.co/thru-hiker-resources/appalachian-trail-interactive-map/ One of the GIS guys (Louis) grabbed the KML file and converted it to a File Geodatabase using ArcGIS. This gave us not only the trail line but also an indication of "parking areas." We looked at a couple of other "trail lines" including http://topofusion.com/at-gps.php but despite having 300,000+ way points gives the length of the trail as only 2109.94 miles. But ultimately the trail line we used would be 2189.1 miles - close enough.

During a section where Harvey appeared to be off-track, we realized that the trail line we were using didn't include the most recent updates, so we grabbed the latest version from the NPS. https://nps.maps.arcgis.com/home/index.html

(When we first started, the GIS page at the ATC didn't have the link available otherwise we would have just used that - https://appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/gis-data, but in retrospect, getting the data with the parking areas was a huge help)

From there we manually entered all of the road crossings from the 2018 AT Data book into a database which allowed us to easily know the distance between points. Using some kind of GIS magic, one of the guys (Matt) was able to highlight on the map all of the roads which crossed the trail, and with the data from the data book we were able to correct the mileage for each of those crossing (seriously, magic).

We then took and added way points for the daily stops for Stringbean, Jurek, and JPD (We didn't include Speedgoat for reasons I don't remember) so we could see where Harvey was ahead/behind of the goal.

We took and generated a couple of versions of the plan - one breaking each day using "Price is Right" rules (as close to 52 miles each day without going over), one that followed Stringbean's mileage but using road crossings instead of campsites, and a version that was frankly just a bit of "eh, that sounds good."

Once we got a hold of the InReach tracker, Matt started playing around with it and was able to get each waypoint written to an AWS database. So every 10 minutes a new point gets uploaded to inReach, we read that point from that site, and write it in to our own database (among other things this gives us a complete and permanent record that we don't have to pay inReach to store). Then in more "magic," Matt wrote a KML layer that reads data from the database and plots each point on a map with the most recent timestamped location getting the "Harvey head" marker and everything else indicated with a triangle.

So we had a map where we could track Harvey, see his position, and see where he was compared to others. Cool.

Then the work began to create a streamlined version that we could embed in the RoadiD tracking site that simplified the map a bit and removed any information about road crossing or competition. Matt worked with one of their developers and created the version that you see at https://www.roadid.com/pages/wheresharvey.

There's a few other projects that we spun up for this (we kind of used this as a bit of a "real-world" learning exercise):

- Creation of a "Where's Harvey" skill for Alexa that allows someone to use the Alexa functionality to get an update on Harvey's current mileage. This was surprisingly useful (at least for me) to just be able to yell at Alexa and get the up to date mileage.

- Creation of a Perl based "HarveyTrack 3000" where from any starting point it would chart out the next 3 days with road crossings in a particular range (say 38-58 miles with a goal average of 51 miles per day). The final decision was made by Harvey's dad and the rest of the crew but we were at least able to tell them when a particular stop had the potential to cause problems down the line.

- A 3D tracking map. Not a lot of functionality but it looks cool.
43157

- Automatically embedding Facebook posts on the map based on timestamp. This one never got fully implemented, but we did a proof of concept where if Harvey did a video at 9 am, you would see a little icon on the map and be able to click it and watch the video.

And yes, the irony of spending hours of programming and technical skills on what fundamentally is a walk through the woods is not lost on me. I've spent hours inside to help others (who are also inside) be able to track the one guy who's moving all day long.Very cool, I love interesting mapping technologies. thanks for the inside look at all the stuff you guys have been working on. I'm sure things like this will be useful for future attempts

[TravisRex]

Harvey spent last night at the Iron Works so he's down to 83.7 to go. 50 days will end up being Thursday morning at 5:33 am, so everyone on the team is curious to see if he ends up above or below that number.

Echoing TRG's question - what is the policy on entering Baxter State Park and/or climbing Katahdin at night? Is it suitable to be climbed in the dark?

The team missed out on getting a spot in the campground, but do have parking reservations for both Wednesday and Thursday.

(And before anyone asks, the team is being cautious about group size and no alcohol so we're fine on that)