Snakes and tents [Archive]

Jayne

06-13-2018, 12:14

People have been camping outdoors without enclosed tents for pretty much the entire history of humanity. Snakes don't want to mess with people. Bugs really aren't that much of a problem either really - it's mostly just a phobia. Mosquitoes are annoying but they are mostly a problem at dusk and permethrin treated clothing does a great job at keeping them at bay. You pack your fears with you. You may want to try a tarp once or twice to see how you do if you can tolerate it - I suspect you'll find the experience to be better than you think. A tent floor really is not necessary or even that helpful for any long distance hike IMPE. It just gets dirty and nasty from you tracking mud in and out anyway.

Berserker

06-13-2018, 12:28

I wouldn't worry about snakes. I don't see many of them during the day, and have yet to see one slithering around at night. Bugs on the other hand are a good reason to get a tent. Many portions of the AT are in areas where the bugs tail off after dark, but I have been in some areas on the AT where bugs like noseeums (AKA sand gnats) and mosquitos were going strong well into the night. Parts of New York stands out as one example of an area where I encountered this. I've also had nights where slugs got all over my stuff that was left outside of my tent. Then of course there's spiders and other nocturnal bugs that can just be annoying if they are crawling on you when you are trying to sleep. Oh yeah, and don't forget the mice. I've had mice run over my sleeping bag in the middle of the night. Even had one do a "doughnut" on my bag while I was in my tent and had left the door open to get more airflow.

nsherry61

06-13-2018, 12:38

. . . I've also had nights where slugs got all over my stuff that was left outside of my tent. . .
Other than mosquitoes, slugs are really the only creatures I've ever found to be annoying when sleeping with an open shelter or without shelter. Spiders don't bite (in my experience anyway) and I don't notice them much. Mice might run across me, but again, don't cause any problems. Mosquitoes suck as we all know. But, those darn slugs leave those sticky slime trails and I just find them gross, not gross enough to start sleeping in an enclosed shelter, but still surprisingly gross and annoying!

Slo-go'en

06-13-2018, 12:39

There is a reason tents are the most common type of shelter on the AT. Overall, you get better rain and bug protection with a tent then with a tarp. A tent also provides a bit more warmth. Hammocks are making inroads, but are still the minority. Tarps are rarely used.

My tent weighs 24 oz. If you want to spend the money, a cuben fiber tent is even lighter.

Tipi Walter

06-13-2018, 14:14

In my years of living out I've had 3 snake experiences in the tent---

The first was in Pisgah on a backpacking trip and after a night around the fire with some friends and after returning to the tent I found a coiled up copperhead in the tent vestibule. We moved it into some dog hobble.

Last year I was backpacking in NC and woke up to a snake going thru my gear in the tent vestibule.

Recently I was on Bob Bald and my backpacking buddy Bryan DeLay was relaxing in the dark on his Ridgerest Solar ccf pad. As he was reclining and talking a garter snake crawled under his body on the pad. He got up fast.

And everybody's all over the map when it comes to bugs and insects and spiders and ants---as if these creatures aren't a problem. If you do any long term pack humping in the Southeast and in the mountains of TN/NC you WILL get pestered by crawling and biting bugs.

On my last trip I was on the BMT and had to set up camp in Tate Gap just off the trail. Black carpenter ants discovered my tentsite and swarmed over everything and all night long. Thankfully I was in my zipped up tent. If you live out long enough you'll encounter these ants and they'll be into everything. They only bite when pinched or rolled over.

Then there are the pesky NOSEEUMS which no one ever seems to talk about. They're hateful and DEET and a zipped up hot tent is about the only relief.

And then there are big spiders. I often sleep with my tent door open and one night I heard a rustling in my gear inside the tent and shined my headlamp and moved some stuff and found a big wolf spider checking out my Gear List. I don't particularly like wolf spiders. I moved him outside and zipped up fast.

One time it was dark and I had a sierra cup half full of cold tea and half asleep I grabbed the cup and put it to my lips to sip and dangit if there wasn't a big wolf spider sitting in the cup on top of the tea. ZAP!

Tipi Walter

06-13-2018, 14:18

Other than mosquitoes, slugs are really the only creatures I've ever found to be annoying when sleeping with an open shelter or without shelter. Spiders don't bite (in my experience anyway) and I don't notice them much. Mice might run across me, but again, don't cause any problems. Mosquitoes suck as we all know. But, those darn slugs leave those sticky slime trails and I just find them gross, not gross enough to start sleeping in an enclosed shelter, but still surprisingly gross and annoying!

Slugs. Reminds me of the time I was cowboy camping in a field and it starting raining so I quickly set up my shelter and grabbed everything and carried my sleeping bag in my teeth with my arms full of other crap. In the process I bit a slug in half cuz he was on the bag---and now half of him was in my mouth.

Mice don't cause any problems??? This I find hard to believe. I've had dozens of food sacks chewed open by mice; had my tent floors chewed up, had boot cuffs chewed apart, etc.

TNhiker

06-13-2018, 14:20

In the process I bit a slug in half cuz he was on the bag---and now half of him was in my mouth.

was it tasty?

nsherry61

06-13-2018, 14:43

. . . Mice don't cause any problems??? This I find hard to believe. I've had dozens of food sacks chewed open by mice; had my tent floors chewed up, had boot cuffs chewed apart, etc.
I won't deny that mice cause problems. Heck, I've had a few hundreds of dollars of gear and a few meals damaged over the years by them or other rodents. But, none of those problems were because I was sleeping without a tent, in fact the tent damage was because I was using a tent. If I'd been on just a ground sheet or ground sheet and tarp, the bugger wouldn't have had to chew a hole in my tent!!

I have read one story on White Blaze about someone (I believe in a shelter) having a mouse chew into their down sleeping bag to get nesting material. That would suck. A tent might help with that. But, I've only ever heard of that happening to one person once. Not a big concern, it seems to me.

In my book, the best way to deal with mice is to keep sweaty and tasty stuff out of their reach, which frankly, I tent doesn't necessarily do.

In the end I think to tent or not to tent is very much a personal esthetic as we can, and have, argued the different sides to this point fairly consistently over the years. I wonder how many threads on WP have addressed tent vs. no-tent over the history of this site?

Time Zone

06-13-2018, 16:20

was it tasty?

Maybe it tasted like banana!

42882

Saw this handsome fellow last weekend in Portland (OR) on the trail part of the 4T.

fiddlehead

06-13-2018, 19:37

I've been using a sil-shelter (integral designs) for many years as my go-to tent.
No floor.
I won't use it in Thailand as they have Burmese pit-vipers here and they are night hunters.
I had a bush-tailed possum come in my tent and woke up with him on my back (big as a medium sized dog) last month in Tasmania.
Other than that, no wild animals or reptiles although we did have slugs quite a bit on our Pyrenees hike last century as it rained a lot in France. (we learned to put salt around our the top part of our sleeping bags as they hate that) (supposedly)
By the way, my wife is from northern Thailand and they love slugs. A real delicacy she says (I've never tried one though)
I would carry it on the AT (if I ever did that trail again), or any of the US trails (although I'd check if I ever did Florida with some snake people to see if there are Burmese Pit vipers there first)

Traveler

06-14-2018, 06:56

In general terms, most snakes native to North America can be nocturnal but are not necessarily so. Pit vipers, which are typically the snakes most people are concerned about, can be active in both day and night environments but their eyesight is more acute during daylight conditions. Their ability to camouflage themselves in daylight can be exceptionally difficult to see, in low/no light conditions it makes them invisible unless they move. Pit vipers and other snakes as well will slow down as temperatures drop, preferring a body temperature of 70 to 85 degrees (+/-). If night temperatures get down into the 50s, its not likely you will see many snakes moving around, but if the night temperatures only move into the mid 70s, that may change.

That said, its unlikely snakes will be a bother at night. Pit vipers have some interesting senses, one of them being heat sensing to determine what is prey or to be avoided, which humans would fit in the latter category. Though I have never seen this occur myself, anecdotal tales suggest shaking out sleeping bags, boots, and other gear prior to use or packing in the off chance a snake (or scorpions, bugs, etc) has curled up in a warm bag, boot, or tent as night temperatures drop.

Tipi Walter

06-14-2018, 12:44

Their ability to camouflage themselves in daylight can be exceptionally difficult to see,

You got that right---

42898
On South Fork Creek trail by my tent.

42899
On Bald River trail.

42900
Rattlehead next to South Fork Citico Creek

CalebJ

06-14-2018, 13:20

I try to believe that snakes don't bother me, but the reality is that pictures like Tipi's still (irrationally) give me the heebee jeebees. Yikes.

MuddyWaters

06-14-2018, 13:39

Net tents keep creepy crawlies away
As well as mice and porcupines

I was indifferent about net tent in non- mosquito conditions, until a porky wouldnt leave me alone once. Nets aint just for bugs.

Tipi Walter

06-14-2018, 13:52

Net tents keep creepy crawlies away
As well as mice and porcupines

I was indifferent about net tent in non- mosquito conditions, until a porky wouldnt leave me alone once. Nets aint just for bugs.

This is true. Visitors can come at any time---

42901
This friendly fellow came in my tent vestibule last year as I was camping on Tobe Creek in Cherokee NF.

Tipi Walter

06-14-2018, 13:57

I try to believe that snakes don't bother me, but the reality is that pictures like Tipi's still (irrationally) give me the heebee jeebees. Yikes.

There's FEAR when it's based at home on the computer and there's FEAR when based in nature and you're outdoors. The one at home is much higher than the one in the woods. Seeing my snake pics even makes me hesitant to saddle up but in reality once I throw on the pack for the next trip I take it all in stride with little concern.

Ergo my Mantra---Keep your eyeballs open and your butt cheeks clenched. We'll be okay.

CalebJ

06-14-2018, 14:36

Right. It's not something I think about when actually out there, and the times I've run across venomous snakes really haven't been a problem at all. It's just the pictures that do it.

HooKooDooKu

06-14-2018, 15:21

... in fact the tent damage was because I was using a tent...
Can't argue with that kind of logic... :banana

theinfamousj

06-14-2018, 16:23

Jayne

06-14-2018, 16:23

Can't argue with that kind of logic... :banana

That's Yogi Berra level Jedi stuff there :P

Jayne

06-14-2018, 16:32

theinfamousj

06-14-2018, 16:36

Doesn't seem to work that well on rattlers down here: they just ball up and rattle at you until they are sure you're gone. Sometimes it takes them a long time to move along......Oh good point. If they ball up, it is because they don't feel they have anywhere they can retreat to. That is the missing piece: always make sure the snake has a retreat.

Fun fact, all snakes shake the tips of their tails when they feel cornered. Rattle snakes just have something to make the noise louder. But put a python on a leather couch and let it be teether on by an infant for a half hour and you will hear it's tail shake, too.

Sent from my SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

CalebJ

06-14-2018, 16:37

Put a python on a leather couch and let it be teether on by an infant for a half hour and you will hear it's tail shake, too.

Personal experience?

blw2

06-14-2018, 21:44

I try to believe that snakes don't bother me, but the reality is that pictures like Tipi's still (irrationally) give me the heebee jeebees. Yikes.

I agree.
I've come with half a step of a copperhead once.. A really big moccasin just a foot or two away on my front porch as my daughter and I were walking back and forth bringing in ups packages. She spotted it on the 2nd or third trip ..... and recently a water moccasin laying in the middle of a two track trail. My foot was about to land about 6 or 8 inches in front of this guy's nose. My brother in law walking right beside me probably would have landed on his tail at about the same instant... we were walking at a really fast pace
42902
this photo was taken a few minutes later, after he slithered into the ditch and we collected ourselves.

blw2

06-14-2018, 21:47

Doesn't seem to work that well on rattlers down here: they just ball up and rattle at you until they are sure you're gone. Sometimes it takes them a long time to move along......

moccasins tend to hold their ground too.

Dogwood

06-15-2018, 00:59

get an enclosed tent.

I come across active snakes like rattlers and copperheads in warmer months at night quite often. I've stepped on active copperheads at night thrice on single track(once on the AT in PA, once on the AT in NY, another on the BMT), and once after fording a river in rocky shoreline grass on the OHT. I was watching on the OHT expecting it as it was snake like territory. Alarming when its noticed at night that unseen root or large twig you supposed starts moving under your foot. I see active copperheads during daylight too. I've seen active rattlesnakes in deserts in N America at night. Ive seen actively feeding coral snakes in plant nurseries and old farm sites in FL and GA in summer at night. There are species that are primarily nocturnal and diurnal. Their activity level and habits changes though depending on seasonal temps.

Ive had snakes, plural, under a tent. Weirdest sensation. Felt like Medusa was under me. Maybe, since I made camp in the dark in a peat area there was a hole in the ground under the tent OR maybe they crawled under to get warm and seek serenity.

By far of all the typically listed in camp larger wildlife that people complain about rodents have caused the largest issues for me. I mainly cowboy, tarp or bivy. But even if I'm in a tent the mice can still be an issue. Cockroaches and especially PALMETTO BUGS(A TYPE OF COCKROACH - often the American species) in FL, HI, SC, and TX have visited in mass at night even on beaches in summer with 100's of them looking vfor any omnivore morsels they can greedily get. They will eat dead skin or nibble on ears or open cuts.

Furlough

06-15-2018, 06:11

From a PCT blogger.

http://www.storytrender.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/0_CATERS_snake_alarm_clock_001-768x471.jpg

http://www.storytrender.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/1_CATERS_snake_alarm_clock_002-1024x576.jpg

Berserker

06-15-2018, 12:25

As a snake owner, you know how to make a snake go away? Works every time on my pet and on snakes found in nature...

Rush them.

They flee. You are bigger and acting like they are about to be dinner. As fellow predators, they know what's up.

Sent from my SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
I wouldn't recommend doing this with poisonous snakes. In my experience with rattlers and copperheads the best thing to do is just take a wide berth. If they are unavoidable (like laying across the trail) and won't move, then get a really long stick (at least 5') and nudge them gently until they move. I have to stress nudging gently, and if done right it works well with them typically just slithering off into the woods. If you push on them aggressively they'll usually coil up and become defensive.

Dogwood

06-15-2018, 13:35

I wouldn't recommend doing this with poisonous snakes. In my experience with rattlers and copperheads the best thing to do is just take a wide berth. If they are unavoidable (like laying across the trail) and won't move, then get a really long stick (at least 5') and nudge them gently until they move. I have to stress nudging gently, and if done right it works well with them typically just slithering off into the woods. If you push on them aggressively they'll usually coil up and become defensive.

We as humans can walk off the trail giving snakes a wide berth. Very few places on the AT where a human hiker wouldn't be able to be that inconvenienced to walk outside the AT tread. Dont disturb them anymore by kicking or shooing off the trail or intrude on THEIR SPACE - IT IS THEIR SPACE - especially messing with poisonous snakes like many rattlers, moccasins, and copperheads in defense mode. As youre walking around watch carefully for anymore snakes. Copperheads will often freeze well camouflaged. When seen they seem docile. That's when humans often get closer and get bitten. Same can happen with other snakes. That's why I'm surprised I've never been bitten by a copperhead after inadvertently stepping on a few. I agree with you Berserker rushing poisonous snakes could be a way of getting bitten. Non poisonous species can give nasty cuts.

Mojaves, eastern Diamondback, strong colored Timber, Coppeheads, and Corals have beautiful coloration.

cooper30

06-16-2018, 19:54

Venomous snakes are the one thing that goes to the front of my mind when thinking about hiking the southern portions of the AT.

Other than my time in the military, all of my time outdoors has been in Maine, mostly in the northern part of the state. I have never seen a venomous snake other than in (semi) controlled settings with friends who had experience while I was on active duty. I don't even think about them while trail hiking or bushwacking up here. Outside of fly season up here, I have no concerns sleeping in the woods with no tent.

I like snakes...we encourage them to be around our home and garden because they keep the rodent population in check...but it's hard for me to not shudder a bit at the thought of being around them. I know it's irrational, and it will never stop me from hiking down south, but the anxiety is definitely there.

Burrhead

06-16-2018, 20:57

I have a phobia . I'm looking to buy a new tent . I'm trying to stay as light weight as possible . A couple hikers suggested using a tarp or fly . First the bugs would love that but my CONCERN is snakes . I need a tent with a floor to feel secure against having a snake crawl in bed with me . Snake activity seems to be high this year .

Gonzo

Poor guy asked for lightweight tent recommendations because he has a phobia. He got a month long lecture on why he shouldn't have a phobia about snakes. Look at Nemo hornet, Lightheart gear solong 6, Big Agnes makes several, Hyperlight, Z-Packs and many more. Use a tent and don't worry about anyone elses opinion of it.

Berserker

06-18-2018, 10:41

Poor guy asked for lightweight tent recommendations because he has a phobia. He got a month long lecture on why he shouldn't have a phobia about snakes. Look at Nemo hornet, Lightheart gear solong 6, Big Agnes makes several, Hyperlight, Z-Packs and many more. Use a tent and don't worry about anyone elses opinion of it.
Yeah, the OP talks about his snake phobia, so I think people were just trying to be helpful and put things in perspective.

But, you bring up a good point. Any of the cottage gear manufacturers make full single wall light weight tents, and you pretty much can't go wrong with any of them (Tarptent, Zpacks, Lightheart Gear, Mountain Laurel Designs etc.). Me personally I have used 2 different tarptents (Squall and Double Rainbow), a Mountain Laurel Designs Duomid with an innernet, and a Lightheart Gear Solong 6. I liked all of them, and currently use the Solong 6. The only reason I settled in on the Solong 6 is that I'm 6'-5" tall, and it's the one I fit the best in along with all my gear. I also love the HUGE vestibule.