Permethrin

[spfleisig]

I wear a buff on my head folded up like a fat headband to keep the sweat at bay. If I spray the buff with Permethrin, I'm wondering if the chemicals would "ooze" out of the buff and run into my eyes.

Anyone have that problem?

Thanks

[lonehiker]

The chemical forms a bond with the fabric. As I understand it, agitation, such as from a washing machine, is what predominately breaks that bond. I personally wouldn't hesitate to use it as you are proposing.

[wayside_mn]

The chemical forms a bond with the fabric. As I understand it, agitation, such as from a washing machine, is what predominately breaks that bond. I personally wouldn't hesitate to use it as you are proposing.

I soak my buffs in permetherin. Once it dries it doesn't seem to leak out with my sweat. I don't know how effective it will be as a headband though. I cover the top of my head from the beasties

[Nanatuk]

Agree. Once dry its stable. I soak all my hats in Permetherin to keep bugs out of my face. Works great.

If you rinse your buff often, it will probably need to be retreated often.

[Rain Man]

Agree with prior posts. Once dry, it doesn't "ooze" out. I think of it a bit like I think of cement: once mixed up with other ingredients and allowed to set, it becomes concrete and re-applying water doesn't cause it to "dissolve" back into its prior incarnation. Not a perfect metaphor (or is it a simile?!), but that's how I think of it, no matter. Perhaps using spray paint might be better analogy?

I treat my Buff, clothing, hat, underwear, shoes, gaiters, pack, hammock, ... everything (except tree straps), and let THOROUGHLY dry. Then I do run the clothes through a short gentle wash and dry cycle as an extra precaution.

This has more info "straight from the horse's mouth" as they say:
Official Sawyer video. (http://vimeo.com/39012753)

[Davem]

The directions on the permethrin package I bought said not to use it on headwear.

[Quik]

I wear a buff on my head folded up like a fat headband to keep the sweat at bay. If I spray the buff with Permethrin, I'm wondering if the chemicals would "ooze" out of the buff and run into my eyes.

Anyone have that problem?

Thanks

I treated a bandanna that I wear around my head before I left Harpers Ferry May 1, lots of sweat toward the end of my hike in GA. I had zero irritation from the Permethrin. I will be retreating the same bandanna in a couple of days before I head up to ME to hike back to HF.

[Jayne]

I use it on everything, including hat and undies. No issues with with it that I have been able to observe. I am far more worried about the very real threat of Lyme disease than a generalized and unproven anxiety about the potential risks of using insecticide on my clothes.

[Nanatuk]

The directions on the permethrin package I bought said not to use it on headwear.

What product are you using?

[lonehiker]

The directions on the permethrin package I bought said not to use it on headwear.

This warning probably only applies in California...

[Ashepabst]

I treat my Buff, clothing, hat, underwear, shoes, gaiters, pack, hammock, ... everything (except tree straps), and let THOROUGHLY dry.

Hey, Rain Man, Is there a reason you avoid the tree straps, out of curiosity?

[bigcranky]

I use it on everything, including underwear and my Buff and bandana. The Sawyer package says not to treat underwear, but having had Lyme disease I am not messing around with the &*(%^ ticks.

[blw2]

yeah, I read the same thing about it...something about not treating anything ...well as I remember it it was something about underwear, and the part of socks that would be inside the shoe.
but it's funny because they use the stuff to treat heads with lice, so skin contact even when wet doesn't seem to be a problem...yeah, I know, limited contact, and so on....

[BuckeyeBill]

I sent my clothing off to InsectShield for treatment and even though it was new, they wanted washed. They also won't treat under garments, waterproof clothing, water resistant clothing, dry clean only clothing, do not tumble dry clothing and line dry only clothing. I do use this service, as it last up to 70 wash cycles. Chris at ULA recommends spraying their packs for protection.

[RockDoc]

We used it on everything (except underwear) during one of our long Maine hikes (Andover to Mt K) in June/July. We were able to wear shorts and had minimal problems with bugs. However, we met trail people who even though they had no skin exposed they were within a cloud of mosquitos, they were miserable.

We would definitely do it again, great invention. We hear it works well for ticks too.

[IslandPete]

My daughter has Lyme. I can’t imagine permethrin doing anything near as bad to me as Lyme is doing to her. We treated everything, especially underwear. The area under your underwear is some of the hardest real estate to cover in your tick checks on the trail. Seriously, treat everything...

[Time Zone]

I wear a buff on my head folded up like a fat headband to keep the sweat at bay. If I spray the buff with Permethrin, I'm wondering if the chemicals would "ooze" out of the buff and run into my eyes.

Thanks

How about calling the Permethrin manufacturer (perhaps Sawyer?) and asking?

[Davem]

Bought the spray bottle at Walmart, I think it was sawyer.

[MtDoraDave]

Chris at ULA recommends spraying their packs for protection.


Absolutely.
Once, here in FL, I put my pack down for a break and before I settled myself down for the break, I saw several ticks climbing up my pack! Now I definitely spray my pack with permethrin. I lightly misted my down sleeping bag. I misted the no see-um mesh on my tent. Hat, handkerchief, every article of clothing... well, I forgot to do the insides of the frogg toggs, but everything else.

I just finished another section hike, in Virginia, in late June. Other people were picking ticks off them, I did not. Nor did I get any mosquito bites... I did get a few gnats in my eyelashes - but that's all the bug interactions I had.

The permethrin treatment worked so well, even the bear, several deer, a rabbit, and 3 snakes fled from me! ;P

[Ethesis]

I sent my clothing off to InsectShield for treatment and even though it was new, they wanted washed. They also won't treat under garments, waterproof clothing, water resistant clothing, dry clean only clothing, do not tumble dry clothing and line dry only clothing. I do use this service, as it last up to 70 wash cycles. Chris at ULA recommends spraying their packs for protection.


Thanks. I’ll be treating my pack. Insectsheild got everything else.

[Nimblewill]

Permethrin exposure is linked to development of Parkinson's disease, among others. It's a grim diagnosis, especially in the later stages of the disease. The toxin permethrin, like many insecticides, destroys the part of the brain that controls movement.

That anyone would voluntarily use this product, especially on clothing or near their body, is shocking. While most insects have simple robust nerve systems, the more complex and subtle operations in human's nervous systems get altered in all kinds of ways from pesticide exposure. This rsults in cogitive changes, usually impairments in memory and inability to multi-task, not just movement disorders.
For those of you performing chemical warfare experiments on yourselves, please sign up or create a disease registry so the later-life effects of your poison exposure can be correlated. And don't forget your kids, if you choose to have any. Their odds of being "normal" will be reduced.

We're living in a period when denying science and just making up stuff is how our party in power operates. Ignore the truth of the effects of ingestion, absorption, and inhalation of poisons--this is a de facto poison-and you'll see the effects eventually.

[Time Zone]

Permethrin exposure is linked to development of Parkinson's disease, among others. It's a grim diagnosis, especially in the later stages of the disease. The toxin permethrin, like many insecticides, destroys the part of the brain that controls movement.

That anyone would voluntarily use this product, especially on clothing or near their body, is shocking. While most insects have simple robust nerve systems, the more complex and subtle operations in human's nervous systems get altered in all kinds of ways from pesticide exposure. This rsults in cogitive changes, usually impairments in memory and inability to multi-task, not just movement disorders.


For those of you performing chemical warfare experiments on yourselves, please sign up or create a disease registry so the later-life effects of your poison exposure can be correlated. And don't forget your kids, if you choose to have any. Their odds of being "normal" will be reduced.

We're living in a period when denying science and just making up stuff is how our party in power operates. Ignore the truth of the effects of ingestion, absorption, and inhalation of poisons--this is a de facto poison-and you'll see the effects eventually.


*citation needed.

[Talk about science denial. Or are you a cat or a fish? If so, my apologies ... you are right to be concerned. ]

[Nimblewill]

*citation needed.

[Talk about science denial. Or are you a cat or a fish? If so, my apologies ... you are right to be concerned. ]

I don't follow your cat or fish remark. Go ahead and soak up if you wish. And spray the kids. Don't let translational research in like or unlike life forms discourage the convenience of using poisons. And certainly don't let epidemiological evidence or clinical research on the very effects I offered information on dissuade you from using poisons. It's just science, and that's not even used in our government agencies decision making. You are free to do whatever. Parents are even free to poison your kids, with impunity.

Here's a principal researcher name: Jeffrey R. Bloomquist. One of many who make this connection: nerve poisons that kill little creatures also harm humans.

Study Of Insecticide Neurotoxicity Yields Clues To Onset Of Parkinson's... (https://vtnews.vt.edu/articles/2003/03/2003-18.html)https://vtnews.vt.edu/articles/2003/03/2003-18.html


Mar 24, 2003 - Jeffrey R. Bloomquist, a neurotoxicologist and associate professor in the ... in mice exposed to various doses of the insecticide permethrin.

Here's a BBC article that discusses specifically this toxic and Aprkinsons--low doses cause more cumulative harm as is the case with many toxics.

For more on neurological illnesses and pesticides, Beyond Pesticides is a great resource, linking peer reviewed science and our exposures.

[chef4]

There are a fair number of epidemiological research studies linking pesticides to Parkinsonism; common limitations of these include the difficulty of determining the total exposure, and how the diagnosis is made or confirmed. Therefore it makes sense to be cautious with permethrin, particularly keeping it out of your gastrointestinal system, where it is highly absorbed. You have to balance the risk of tick borne disease with this chemical risk. Skin absorption is likely to be higher when the permethrin is in tight clothing. You should also be very careful if considering using DEET with permethrin, as animal studies have show that DEET can markedly increase skin absorption of pyrethroids. For the occasional hiker in high risk areas, the insect repellants are likely worth it. If you get longterm exposure through very frequent use when backpacking, there is a concern that your risk is higher. However, the lifelong risk of Parkinsonism is only increased modestly in these research studies, it is not like you have a 50% risk of getting it.

[SC_Forester]

I am always disappointed with the press release version of research reports. I know in the liquid form permethrin is pretty bad stuff and is often sprayed directly on animals; acutely toxic to fish and cats. Curious to the exposure once it is bonded to clothing. If this data is not available it soon will be now that most US military field uniforms are now treated. I would error on the side of using only products made for fabrics.
I watched my Grandmother die of Parkinsons and I personally have had/have Lyme. Between Parkinson's and chronic Lyme pick your slow terrible end of life spiral. But sitting an your couch all day has its own risks and will probably die sooner.

[Time Zone]

Nimblewill,

I'm not sure you have a firm grasp on how science and science policy is supposed to work. A single, 15-year old study on mice, described in a presentation, does not by itself overturn FDA studies establishing the safety and efficacy of permethrin topically applied on humans for treatment of lice, nor the application of permethrin to clothing as an insecticide or repellent. To name just a few issues, one should balance that one presentation against peer review and critique of method/analysis/interpretation, reproducibility of the study and results, formation of consensus among experts, other studies showing multiple lines of evidence pointing in another direction, plausible mechanism of action, trials on primates and perhaps humans (if practical, else observational studies), etc. No one study is conclusive of anything.

Funny you warn of absorption - permethrin is not absorbed well at all through human skin - that's one solid reason why it's approved for topical use!

You are throwing around incendiary phrases like "poisoning your kids" and "performing chemical warfare experiments on yourself" - the language of a troll or a fearmonger. In either case, I suggest you take your evidence to the nearest regulatory authority, to which our society has delegated responsibility for figuring out issues like this, and make your case. In the meantime, I'll continue to use FDA and EPA approved products and protocols unless and until I have good reason to suppose they've missed something.

By the way, I do take the risks of permethrin seriously and that's why I keep it away from my cats. It is highly toxic to cats - not dogs, though. Even with cats, the risk is only when it's wet, not dry. These distinctions and subtleties seem to be lost on you. The world is not black and white. Pesticides are not wholly good or bad; there's risks and rewards to using them. And the consensus of the best experts on these matters is that certain permethrin sprays and treatments are safe for humans when used as directed.

[Time Zone]

As an addendum, the World Health Organization lists permethrin among their model list of essential medicines ("most effective and safe").

[nsherry61]

Let's put these permethrin toxicity studies into context.
1) The only ones with reasonable controls are on rats, not people.
2) The rats were fed the equivalent of an adult person drinking 200 ml of Sawyer's spray-on permethrin every day from the time they were born until probably the equivalent of about 8 years old (21 days of a rat's life).
3) Direct application of liquid permethrin onto your skin leads to a 1% absorption of permethrin into your system which is rapidly broken down to undetectable levels in a matter of hours. So, you would have to apply what you put on your cloths directly to your skin every day for 100 days to absorb the equivalent amount of permethrin fed to those rats every day.
4) Permethrin adheres VERY strongly to fabrics so there is almost no transfer of permethrin from fabrics to your skin.
5) The correlation studies on people that show a correlation between people that work in an environment with significant permethrin exposure and parkinson's cannot show a direct cause, and even if their is a true cause and effect relationship, these people are dealing with highly concentrated liquid permethrin exposure over years, NOT just contact with permethrin bound to fabrics.

As things go, permethrin has been shown to be surprisingly benign at the levels of exposure experienced in the outdoor industry.

[Meenkya]

Dropped mike...

[spfleisig]

Dropped mike...

Well played....

[chef4]

The problem with epidemiologic studies is they're difficult to control, and experiments on people would be unethical. I think I would just be careful with permethrin-treated hats/bandannas, and not spray deet on the clothing (although not sure why you would want to do that). It seems low risk for loose clothing, packs, etc and is quite effective. Most ticks are going to cling to your legs and climb, not drop on you.

[Leo L.]

After I've learned about Permethrin here at WB a few years back, I'm using it on my hiking pants and never had a tick biting into the skin again.
One day this May we headed along deer tracks through high grass crossing many streams. I went ahead, big lots of ticks gathering on my pants at every stream crossing, but all of them gone after a few minutes.
My wife, walking behind me with untreated short pants, carried several with her down to the forest road where we took off and shaked out the clothes to get rids of the ticks. Back home, she still had four lodged into the skin later back home.

We have a very severe tick season this year, and Permethrin threated pants make all the difference.
Its everybodys own choice between the very concrete danger of Lyme and FSME, and possible risk from the Permethrin.
I took the Permethrin route and am happy with it.
But I treat my pants only, no other pieces or clothing.

[Mudsock]

Well I know one thing for certain. i soaked my underwear in permethrin and my wife has been unable to conceive since. i am 69, she is 68. Sarah was 90 and Abraham was over a hundred when she conceived. But then, they didn't use permethrin on any of their garments.

[trailmercury]

Well I know one thing for certain. i soaked my underwear in permethrin and my wife has been unable to conceive since. i am 69, she is 68. Sarah was 90 and Abraham was over a hundred when she conceived. But then, they didn't use permethrin on any of their garments.

;)

Permethrin causes menopause?

[Time Zone]

Permethrin was first described in an article in Nature in November, 1973.

Just six months later, Duke Ellington died.

Be careful with this stuff, folks.

[Mudsock]

;)

Permethrin causes menopause?

I am not sure. I do know it does not cause ED.

[jackwagon]

Nimblewell quoted Study Of Insecticide Neurotoxicity Yields Clues To Onset Of Parkinson's... (https://vtnews.vt.edu/articles/2003/03/2003-18.html)

https://vtnews.vt.edu/articles/2003/03/2003-18.html

In there, it states, "Our studies have documented low-dose effects of permethrin, doses below one-one thousandth of a lethal dose for a mouse, with effects on those brain pathways involved in Parkinson's Disease,"

So what's 1/1000 of a lethal dose? I found this in a Pesticide Information Project of Cooperative Extension Offices of Cornell University (http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/metiram-propoxur/permethrin-ext.html) "The amount of permethrin that is lethal to one-half (50%) of experimental animals exposed to it is referred to as the lethal dose fifty, or LD50, of this insecticide. The oral LD50 for technical permethrin in rats is 430 to 4,000 milligrams per kilogram (mg/kg). Its LD50 is over 270 mg/kg when injected into the veins."

Part of what makes Permethrin safe is that it bonds to the fibers of clothing and sticks there well. I would be hard pressed to get a human-lethal dose from wearing dry permethrin-treated clothing.

I think my likelihood of getting 1/1000th of a lethal dose (for a human) of Permethrin to possibly contribute to later-life Parkinsons is infinetesimal when compared to the likelihood of getting a tick-borne disease that could more likely screw me up for the rest of my life if I avoid using Permethrin.

[chef4]

I'm not ready to toss out my eco mesh hiking pants and sit on the couch. And that couch is unfortunately treated with a stain prevention chemical that is both more easily absorbed and likely more toxic than permethrin. Everyone can evaluate the risks and just make their own choices.

[KCNC]

I read a study (hardcopy - don't have it to cite) that indicated Permethrin and Picaridin used in conjunction reduced the risk of picking up a tick by ~85%.

With Powassan on the rise in addition to the spread of Lyme and alpha-gal, all piled on my childhood phobia of Rocky Mt Spotted Fever - I'll take my chances with the pesticides - underwear and all.

I have heard some interesting anecdotal reports from three people who are all on Metropolol (Beta-blocker) who have found 4 ticks among them in the last few years - all dead.

Now, to mix up a batch and dunk all my "stuff" in preparation for my hike later this month.

At least I don't have to worry about ED!

[BuckeyeBill]

If you avoided everything that was bad for you, you should just dig a hole and have someone cover you in dirt.

[martinb]

I believe the instructions for Permethrin state not to use it is areas that come in contact with skin (like underwear). I spray my shoes, outside of socks, and the outside(to about halfway up) of long pant legs. The much greater danger is inhaling the spray as you apply. Use a mask and gloves when applying to avoid direct exposure when wet.

[Jayne]

[QUOTE=Nimblewill;2213842]Permethrin exposure is linked to development of Parkinson's disease, among others. It's a grim diagnosis, especially in the later stages of the disease. The toxin permethrin, like many insecticides, destroys the part of the brain that controls movement.


Here are some fun facts that may be help you live a life that is not filled with anxiety:

1) Mice are not people.
2) It's the dose that makes the poison.
3) Correlation does not prove causality.
4) Everyone dies.

Almost anything can kill you in large enough doses but that doesn't mean that there is a risk in lower doses. Cyanide is quite toxic but you breathe cyanide everyday: it's a naturally occurring trace element in our atmosphere. I doubt that logic will influence the poster's opinion but at least we can help put this kind of scaremongering into context.

"You can not use reason to change the opinion of someone that did not use reason to form their opinion in the first place" Benjamin Frankin

[BuckeyeBill]

Well said Jayne. You to Benny.

[Deadeye]

If you avoided everything that was bad for you, you should just dig a hole and have someone cover you in dirt.

but that would be bad for you...

[BuckeyeBill]

Yea it would, but you don't need to worry about it for too long, you would be dead.

[Nanatuk]

All you can do is try to live a chemical free life. Be diligent because chemicals are everywhere. Acetylsalicylic acid, sodium chloride, calcium carbonate, titanium dioxide, potassium carbonate, acetic acid and ascorbic acid are present in almost every home and office environment.

Most alarmingly, its almost impossible to avoid dihydrogen mononxide or DHMO (http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html) in everyday life. http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

[Jayne]

All you can do is try to live a chemical free life. Be diligent because chemicals are everywhere. Acetylsalicylic acid, sodium chloride, calcium carbonate, titanium dioxide, potassium carbonate, acetic acid and ascorbic acid are present in almost every home and office environment.

Most alarmingly, its almost impossible to avoid dihydrogen mononxide or DHMO (http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html) in everyday life. http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html
You have be particularly careful of the dihydrogen monoxide - it's in almost everything:eek:

[George]

You have be particularly careful of the dihydrogen monoxide - it's in almost everything:eek:

you definitely don't want to drink the stuff, with what intimate acts fish do in it

[chef4]

For those who enjoy linking recent threads, the fact that we have moved on to the apparent risks of dihydrogen monoxide suggests that we should now get deeply engaged (again) in a prolonged discussion of whether and when this ubiquitous chemical requires filtration on the trail, or is best enjoyed in its untreated state, 'raw' dihydrogen monoxide.

[nsherry61]

. . . suggests that we should now get deeply engaged (again) in a prolonged discussion of whether and when this ubiquitous chemical requires filtration on the trail, or is best enjoyed in its untreated state, 'raw' dihydrogen monoxide.
I'd just like to say that for those of us that hold our freedom in highest regards for those of us that want to live life to the fullest in it's most raw, natural and thrilling state, filtering diyhydrogen monoxide before swallowing is like using a condom, wearing a seatbelt or dawning a bicycle helmet. Life should be experienced, NOT protected from!

[MtDoraDave]

I'd just like to say that for those of us that hold our freedom in highest regards for those of us that want to live life to the fullest in it's most raw, natural and thrilling state, filtering diyhydrogen monoxide before swallowing is like using a condom, wearing a seatbelt or dawning a bicycle helmet. Life should be experienced, NOT protected from!

...so... you're anti permethrin, pro tick check?
:D

[Jayne]

For those who enjoy linking recent threads, the fact that we have moved on to the apparent risks of dihydrogen monoxide suggests that we should now get deeply engaged (again) in a prolonged discussion of whether and when this ubiquitous chemical requires filtration on the trail, or is best enjoyed in its untreated state, 'raw' dihydrogen monoxide.

I've yet to find a filter that can remove the dihydrogen monoxide from my drinking water! The current filters on the market just can't handle it. Maybe I should just start carrying more dehydrated drinking water...... :-?

[LovelyDay]

I dunno what a buff is, but that doesnt matter.
Permethrin by Sawyers is available at Walmart sporting goods department with a hand pump; no propellentent. Just Pump the trigger.
Pyrethrum is the juice from chrysanthemums. Do you have an allergy to chrysanthemums? Your concern may be regarding chemical propellents.
Have a Lovely Day.

[nsherry61]

Oh, so much fodder. So little time.


...so... you're anti permethrin, pro tick check? :D
I confess. I do both. Apparently I'm not the purist I profess to be. :eek: I really don't like blood sucking vermin of any kind.


I've yet to find a filter that can remove the dihydrogen monoxide from my drinking water! The current filters on the market just can't handle it. Maybe I should just start carrying more dehydrated drinking water...... :-?
The best filter I've found for DHMO is a tightly closed water bottle. They work surprisingly well, are relatively cheap, and most of us already have them. So, does that make my water bottle a multi-use item? :-? So much thinking . . .


. . . Pyrethrum is the juice from chrysanthemums. Do you have an allergy to chrysanthemums? Your concern may be regarding chemical propellents. . .
Actually permethrin is a synthetically manufactured chemical that is analogous to, one could say an enhanced version of, but not exactly the same as a chemical that can be found in a chrysanthemum. Anyone that has told you it is chrysanthemum juice doesn't understand what they are talking about. As for propellent allergies, that is highly unlikely because propellents are generally gasses that evaporate as they push the product out of the pressurized can. Now, one could have allergies to the solvents that carry the active ingredient (i.e. the other 99.5% of your after-market permethrin clothing treatment) except, in the case of Sawyer the solvent is water.

[BuckeyeBill]

I volunteer to be a female tick inspector. Sorry my mind went to the gutter again.

[George]

I've yet to find a filter that can remove the dihydrogen monoxide from my drinking water! The current filters on the market just can't handle it. Maybe I should just start carrying more dehydrated drinking water...... :-?

problem with every dehydrated water I buy, is you need to add dihydrogen monoxide - just can not get away from these dangerous chemicals

[George]

I volunteer to be a female tick inspector. Sorry my mind went to the gutter again.

are you going to start a gofundme for the sex change operation?

[BuckeyeBill]

No, but I am very professional while conducting inspections.

[THEDON]

very good article on the subject of permethrin.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/07/09/625459326/to-repel-ticks-try-spraying-your-clothes-with-a-pesticide-derived-from-mums