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bayview
06-26-2018, 22:11
After doing a section hike a few weeks ago, I spoke with a trail worker that was cleaning a shelter about garbage. Why does ATC not place near proof trash receptacles at major locations and intersections of trail with highway. It would probably help reduce extra garbage on trail. I am sure logistics could be figured out to ensure they would be emptied during hiking seasons.

Gambit McCrae
06-26-2018, 22:17
Whose going to fund this major trash receptival project?
whose going to empty these trash cans?
cost of trash bags alone?
why would people throwing trash away at shelters and along the trail now keep that trash till they get to a road?

MuddyWaters
06-26-2018, 22:18
They would need to be emptied regularly
This would involve paying somebody

Trash is light
Yeah some people leave trash at shelters
Those people will always leave trash anywhere

For the rest of us
Not a big deal to carry our trash to town

A better solution is to just get rid of the shelter

GoldenBear
06-26-2018, 22:50
The placement of easy-to-use garbage cans does NOT reduce the amount of trash in an area -- it INCREASES it. Plain & simple, unless the cans are emptied pretty much every day, people dump their house trash into them and overwhelm their carrying capacity. This is an undeniable FACT in cities, rural areas, parks (ever wonder why you don't see a lot of cans in parks?), and DEFINITELY along roads.

It would be great if the ONLY trash left at cans, located where The Trail meets roads, was junk left by hikers. But a fact we can NOT ignore is that it would soon become a dumping ground for everybody who drives along that road.
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site21/2015/0902/20150902__03DCABERw~1.jpg

May I suggest that each of us simply carry out a LITTLE bit of trash at each shelter? I truly believe the good guys far out-number the bad guys in this regard, and if each of us takes a handful or so of junk from a shelter, add it to our own trash bags (you know, the ones where we pack out what we pack in?); we would accomplish a LOT more than putting garbage magnets next to roads.

Durunner
06-26-2018, 23:03
Sounds good in theory, but others already brought up plenty of good points. Imagine this though. Let's say 100 backpackers go through an area a day. Say 5 out of the 100 trash the shelter while the other 95 pack out their trash. Now, we introduce that trash can. Even if the 5 people now use it, the other 95 or at least a good majority of those will probably also use it. Imagine how much more thrash that creates with 100 people with 3 days or more of trash. The can will get full very quickly.

Dogwood
06-27-2018, 00:20
Carry your own trash out. The AT is easy enough logistically to hike as it is.

BuckeyeBill
06-27-2018, 06:11
Pack it in, pack it out.

bayview
06-27-2018, 08:20
He’s, you people act as I was too lazy to pick out my trash, I am not. I am probably on of the biggest LNT people. There are solutions out there.

Many want to make an excuse to a solution without offering alternatives to a problem. Instead of criticizing someone for their ideas, why not find solutions. Many people that follow LNT like my idea while I was on the trail two weeks ago.

I understand some thoughts out there, but why do we lump everyone into one group.

Two Tents
06-27-2018, 08:47
bayview, I hear ya! I'm not sure a trash can solution is the best solution. Nor is doing away with shelters a serious answer. Some would not care if there was a can not far away. I've seen people miss an empty dumpster with a bad throw of trash and just leave it where it landed. Pass a law, make a rule, put up signs, it won't matter. Litterbugs don't care. If solutions to getting people to change happens then that is golden. People ( some) don't give things like litter any thought whatsoever. I have always carried out more than what I take in. Until things change it is my way to help.

Leo L.
06-27-2018, 09:12
I've made good experience by picking up litter occassionally within clear view of "litter bugs". Heard lots of positive comments that put the litter spenders ashame.
Not that I'll do this every time, but just occassionally when I think it would make a great example.
In other cases I just pick up and depose in the next bin.

Pondjumpr
06-27-2018, 09:13
[QUOTE=GoldenBear;2213381]The placement of easy-to-use garbage cans does NOT reduce the amount of trash in an area -- it INCREASES it. Plain & simple, people dump their house trash at cans, overwhelming it...
[/QUOTE (http://ads.[/QUOTE)]

This is very true. I work at a bank and have done so for almost 20 years. Early in my career, we had trash cans by the ATM machines. In theory, it was so someone could throw away the receipt if they didn't want it. In reality, it became a place where people placed cups, fast food garbage, water bottles, etc. It was often filled to capacity, or over, daily. We no longer place trash receptacles by the ATM or outside the bank. If you ever notice trash receptacles at gas stations, this is pretty much the same thing. People stop to get gas and they empty their cars of any and all trash. Many stations no longer place trash receptacles near pumps for the same reason.

I imagine that trailside cans would have the same impact. While it is nice in theory, many people, possibly unknowingly, would cause a bigger issue than what is already present. Let's be honest, most people don't carry their trash all the way home when on trail. They empty the trash at the first trash receptacle they see. It's just how it is.

orthofingers
06-27-2018, 09:34
There's a gravel parking lot at the town forest where I "hike" every morning with my dogs. They used to have two trash receptacles there. They were always overflowing with pizza boxes, beer cans, clothing articles and a couple of times, old mattresses. Since they removed them about five years ago, I pick up the stray can or bottle and the place is much cleaner.

TexasBob
06-27-2018, 09:55
[QUOTE=GoldenBear;2213381]The placement of easy-to-use garbage cans does NOT reduce the amount of trash in an area -- it INCREASES it. Plain & simple, people dump their house trash at cans, overwhelming it...
[/QUOTE (http://ads.[/QUOTE)]

This is very true. I work at a bank and have done so for almost 20 years. Early in my career, we had trash cans by the ATM machines. In theory, it was so someone could throw away the receipt if they didn't want it. In reality, it became a place where people placed cups, fast food garbage, water bottles, etc. It was often filled to capacity, or over, daily. We no longer place trash receptacles by the ATM or outside the bank. If you ever notice trash receptacles at gas stations, this is pretty much the same thing. People stop to get gas and they empty their cars of any and all trash. Many stations no longer place trash receptacles near pumps for the same reason.

I imagine that trailside cans would have the same impact. While it is nice in theory, many people, possibly unknowingly, would cause a bigger issue than what is already present. Let's be honest, most people don't carry their trash all the way home when on trail. They empty the trash at the first trash receptacle they see. It's just how it is.


There's a gravel parking lot at the town forest where I "hike" every morning with my dogs. They used to have two trash receptacles there. They were always overflowing with pizza boxes, beer cans, clothing articles and a couple of times, old mattresses. Since they removed them about five years ago, I pick up the stray can or bottle and the place is much cleaner.

It strikes me as ironic that one of the reasons for not having trash cans is that people put trash in them. :)

Bcollarhiker
06-27-2018, 09:58
Not much of a poster here but people leaving trash behind or spray panting on the trail gets my blood boiling, I say we need stricter laws regarding this, lets start with a 1000.00 dollar minimum fine for littering, if you cant pay it, minimum 1 week in your local cell, fine and prison times goes up for repeat offenders, plus police actually need to enforce this law, i cant tell you how many times I saw people dump fast food bags out of there cars with a police officer right there not giving it a second look

Bcollarhiker
06-27-2018, 10:08
I would also say lets get rid of shelters that are less than a few miles from the roads since those seem to be the worst when it comes to people leaving trash

nsherry61
06-27-2018, 10:35
Two thoughts, mostly repeating previous points of view:
1) Trash cans only work when there is reliable funding to keep them emptied as often as needed, likely once a day or more during certain times of year. Most parks systems struggle to manage manage trash. In the case of the AT it would be 100+ different jurisdictions trying to manage trashcans at trailheads. Organizing a trail-long system would be insanely difficult or impossible and super expensive. However, I'm sure there are already examples of some places where this is done. Nothing wrong with encouraging it in other places where the resources are there to manage it. Heck Bayview, maybe you could take on organizing an effort at one or two trailheads you think are worth putting your time into.

2) I go through phases where I put quite a bit of effort into making sure I pick up other people's trash along trails and in camp sites I visit. The really big surprise for me is how long my efforts pay off. It turns out that, in my experience, the vast majority of trash along trails and in campsites has been there quite a while and does NOT accumulate quickly. So, if even a significant minority of us out there take the trouble to pick up the trash others leave behind, those spaces stay amazingly clean. It really takes a whole community refusing to put just a little extra effort into cleaning up other peoples messes to allow these places to be cluttered.

In summary, if we each do even a little bit to clean up the clutter of others, it makes a huge difference, especially in more remote areas!

TSWisla
06-27-2018, 10:35
I wish that people would stop trying to burn their trash. It is never completely burned away and always ends up being a huge, disgusting mess. What is wrong with people!? Pack in, pack out. Simple concept!!!

BillyGr
06-27-2018, 11:00
Perhaps if they were to consider this, it would be necessary to place them not quite at the trailhead, but within a reasonable distance from one. That is, just enough into the trees so that the average person driving by isn't going to see them but those walking on the trail would be able to spot them easily, and they'd still be close enough for whoever was picking it up to get it out without too much trouble.

rocketsocks
06-27-2018, 13:20
Why rely on any entity to provide something we all should have learned in pre-school, outside of lobbying for a corridor to hike the ATC shouldn’t be responsible for diddly squat.

George
06-27-2018, 14:29
Perhaps if they were to consider this, it would be necessary to place them not quite at the trailhead, but within a reasonable distance from one. That is, just enough into the trees so that the average person driving by isn't going to see them but those walking on the trail would be able to spot them easily, and they'd still be close enough for whoever was picking it up to get it out without too much trouble.

trash containers that resist animals are heavy and expensive - putting it away from the road greatly multiplies the labor to service it - no easy solution
also remember any additional tasks taken on by the volunteer workforce means something else needs to be eliminated

to those with the great ideas fo garbage collection -------- go ahead and do it, let us know how it goes

George
06-27-2018, 14:33
After doing a section hike a few weeks ago, I spoke with a trail worker that was cleaning a shelter about garbage. Why does ATC not place near proof trash receptacles at major locations and intersections of trail with highway. It would probably help reduce extra garbage on trail. I am sure logistics could be figured out to ensure they would be emptied during hiking seasons.

great idea - go ahead and collect/ dispose of the garbage - you might even get something named after you

GregInAthens
06-27-2018, 15:46
Hmmm, I remember one shelter in particular in the Nantahala Forest that was covered in trash. It didn’t look like hiker trash to me, looked like a hang out for underage people to drink and party at. It is a real shame.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tdoczi
06-27-2018, 15:51
i really was hoping this would be a thread about setting up cameras to catch people littering.

perdidochas
06-27-2018, 15:58
He’s, you people act as I was too lazy to pick out my trash, I am not. I am probably on of the biggest LNT people. There are solutions out there.

Many want to make an excuse to a solution without offering alternatives to a problem. Instead of criticizing someone for their ideas, why not find solutions. Many people that follow LNT like my idea while I was on the trail two weeks ago.

I understand some thoughts out there, but why do we lump everyone into one group.
Bay,

I think everybody thinks that you're sincere, and appreciate your solution. However, like many idealistic solutions, it crashes when reality hits. More garbage cans is not the solution. I agree with GoldenBear. Grab a little garbage when you see it and pack it out. Maybe when the trashy people see it, it will make them feel guilty, probably not, but at least the garbage gets picked up.

soilman
06-27-2018, 17:10
i really was hoping this would be a thread about setting up cameras to catch people littering.

Ditto. Trash is a problem everywhere and until there is a shift in behavior it will probably continue to be. I live on a country road and pick up trash on a mile stretch a couple times a year. People dump tires, mattresses, toilets, deer carcasses, etc. on my property. I set up a trail cam to try and catch the culprits. We used to have recycling dumpsters at several retail stores in town but they have slowly gone away because people ignore posted restrictions and dump all kinds of non-recycling materials. I make it a habit to pick up trash that I find along the trail, but don't bother at shelters.

Traveler
06-28-2018, 08:07
He’s, you people act as I was too lazy to pick out my trash, I am not. I am probably on of the biggest LNT people. There are solutions out there.

Many want to make an excuse to a solution without offering alternatives to a problem. Instead of criticizing someone for their ideas, why not find solutions. Many people that follow LNT like my idea while I was on the trail two weeks ago.

I understand some thoughts out there, but why do we lump everyone into one group.

I'm not sure who has said you were lazy, however the solution you proposed has been tried in various places and has failed for a few reasons. The primary reasons being funding issues to obtain the trash cans and have them serviced (trash removed, trash bags replaced, trash cans replaced when stolen or destroyed), simple trash cans will attract animals which in turn can create a nuisance for local residents nearby, heavy bear proof trash containers increases the labor costs, and when trash cans are available in remote areas they tend to attract trash from sources not associated with the trail itself. Having been involved in trail maintenance, there are no easy solutions for this problem beyond picking up behind these clods or shaming those who litter when they are observed doing so.

If this is something you feel strongly about you can provide trash service through the local maintainers group (who will love you for that). Because this has not worked in some places it does not mean it won't work where you think they may. You could sponsor/service game cameras that can photograph those who litter and perhaps aid in their prosecution. A lot of litterbugs are locals who use shelters or camping spots for parties who can be identified with a bit of leg work.

This is a long standing problem requiring different methods of solution in at different locations.

Old Grouse
06-28-2018, 09:22
A similar issue is dog walkers not picking up their pets’ poop in parks. In the town where I work, some of the patrons of one park became militant. They made little signs attached to a bit of coat hanger wire, saying “Shame on you.” They’d stick a sign next to a pile of poop to shame the dog owner. Of course, all that did was add sign litter to poop litter.

When that didn’t work, they wanted to install trail cams to photograph the violators. This would also require cameras in the parking lots and someone to watch the videos all day long to identify the violators by matching their photos with their license plates. Sanity ultimately prevailed when they calculated the expense involved. The saga actually made the NYC news.

George
06-29-2018, 00:54
A similar issue is dog walkers not picking up their pets’ poop in parks. In the town where I work, some of the patrons of one park became militant. They made little signs attached to a bit of coat hanger wire, saying “Shame on you.” They’d stick a sign next to a pile of poop to shame the dog owner. Of course, all that did was add sign litter to poop litter.

When that didn’t work, they wanted to install trail cams to photograph the violators. This would also require cameras in the parking lots and someone to watch the videos all day long to identify the violators by matching their photos with their license plates. Sanity ultimately prevailed when they calculated the expense involved. The saga actually made the NYC news.

the one I do not get is how many bags of dog crap are left along the trail

if you are not going to carry it out, why bag it? - maybe to lessen the risk of getting caught/ fined?

Old Grouse
06-29-2018, 09:43
Do they tell themselves they’ll be back to pick it up? Do they believe themselves?

cmoulder
06-30-2018, 07:57
Old Grouse;2213629]Do they tell themselves they’ll be back to pick it up? Do they believe themselves?

Last Tuesday morning in Harriman State Park, somebody left an entire bag of trash, which had probably been there since Sunday. Contained beer bottles and cans and was very noisy, so it was not inadvertently dropped... it was placed very deliberately on the rock for somebody else to deal with. I carried it out, but it's yet another reminder of what absolute pigs some people can be.

43044 43045

blw2
06-30-2018, 08:48
I know that I'm probably wrong a lot of the time with this thinking....but I like to give folks benefit of the doubt....

I usually wonder in situations like these if it was just a well intentioned bad decision....

The dog walker day hiker bags the poop and stashes it planning to pick it up on their backtrack back to the car, then either forgets or can't find it...

and the bag of trash.... maybe they each thought the other one was going to get it, or simply forgot it....much like we all do at one time or anther...we lay our pocket knife down on a log while we are having lunch then later when packing up and going we don't see it and walk off leaving it there...or our sunglasses on a restaurant table

rhjanes
06-30-2018, 09:50
Last Tuesday morning in Harriman State Park, somebody left an entire bag of trash, which had probably been there since Sunday. Contained beer bottles and cans and was very noisy, so it was not inadvertently dropped... it was placed very deliberately on the rock for somebody else to deal with. I carried it out, but it's yet another reminder of what absolute pigs some people can be.

43044 43045
Thanks for carrying out. As noted above, I suspect that was an instance of "I thought Mikey was carrying that out". They bothered to bag it up and trash doesn't weigh that much. I hike a trail here in Dallas every weekend. It is shocking how much trash is at the trail heads! I suspect 99.9 percent of that, was tossed by someone with a CAR right there. I'm also shocked at some trail hikers and runners who just toss their empty water bottles next to the trail. I want to put up signs "Your MAMA isn't following you down the trail picking up after you.....pack it out". Two weeks back, deep in the forest, 2 empty water bottles on the trail and right in the grass next to the trail, 3 full bottles. I assumed it was a water cache for some runners. I picked up the empties and went on. Last weekend, the 3 full were still there. I stopped, emptied them and packed them out.

SoaknWet
06-30-2018, 11:55
My thoughts on people and trash is simple. People were on the Moon for a very short time and look at all the trash they left behind, and they were the educated ones!

cmoulder
06-30-2018, 12:13
I know that I'm probably wrong a lot of the time....but I like to give folks benefit of the doubt....

I usually wonder in situations like these if it was just a well intentioned bad decision....

The dog walker day hiker bags the poop and stashes it planning to pick it up on their backtrack back to the car, then either forgets or can't find it...

and the bag of trash.... maybe they each thought the other one was going to get it, or simply forgot it....much like we all do at one time or anther...we lay our pocket knife down on a log while we are having lunch then later when packing up and going we don't see it and walk off leaving it there...or our sunglasses on a restaurant table
I would also like to think it was unintentional but I have seen so much garbage in Harriman that my 'benefit of doubt' account is thoroughly depleted.

Lone Wolf
06-30-2018, 14:59
My thoughts on people and trash is simple. People were on the Moon for a very short time and look at all the trash they left behind, and they were the educated ones!

Everest is a dump. bodies, trash and debris litter that mountain

George
06-30-2018, 19:20
Everest is a dump. bodies, trash and debris litter that mountain

Fuji is the worst

Ethesis
07-01-2018, 00:40
i really was hoping this would be a thread about setting up cameras to catch people littering.

Me too.

It just seemed so tempting.

cmoulder
07-01-2018, 04:55
Me too.

It just seemed so tempting.
Typos have consequences! :D

imscotty
07-01-2018, 14:20
i really was hoping this would be a thread about setting up cameras to catch people littering.

I think 'Trash Cams' is a fantastic idea. Now we can finally find out who the hell is leaving all this crap in the woods.

nsherry61
07-01-2018, 16:31
I think 'Trash Cams' is a fantastic idea. Now we can finally find out who the hell is leaving all this crap in the woods.
The catch being that it is a surprisingly small number of people dropping trash and a surprisingly large number of people not taking a couple minutes of their time to pick it up when they see it.

I many cases, the reason there is so much trash isn't so much that lots of people trash the trails, it's that a very few people trash the trails and then the trash stays there for a long time. How often have you done multiple hikes on the same trail months apart and noticed that much of the trash is the same as what was there the last time you hiked it? I have found that if I pick up a trail that I regularly hike, it stays clean for a surprisingly long time. Picking up trash makes for an amazingly huge return on my small investment in time and yukky trash handling.

If you want to motivate yourself to get better at picking up trash when you hike and backpack, start by doing it on a trail you hike repeatedly so you can enjoy your effort and see how much difference it makes. Then also, make it easy by including in your standard hiking kit a garbage bag and a few doggy bags or surgical gloves (so you can pick stuff up without touching it). Then, make sure you take pictures of your haul to show off and humble your friends and remind yourself how awesome you are.

Burrhead
07-01-2018, 17:10
I wish that people would stop trying to burn their trash. It is never completely burned away and always ends up being a huge, disgusting mess. What is wrong with people!? Pack in, pack out. Simple concept!!!

I agree 100%! My personal opinion is that people burning trash that has food residue on it is a large part of the problem we are having with bears on the AT and in the Smokies. I can't understand why so many hikers can't grasp the concept of pack it in pack it out.

George
07-03-2018, 00:34
I can't understand why so many hikers can't grasp the concept of pack it in pack it out.

well, that goes back to the original post - no place to dispose of the trash at road crossings etc

cmoulder
07-03-2018, 05:25
well, that goes back to the original post - no place to dispose of the trash at road crossings etc

Umm, so what I do is I keep carrying it until I find a proper place to dispose of it. But I'm kinda quirky that way. :rolleyes:

nsherry61
07-03-2018, 09:53
well, that goes back to the original post - no place to dispose of the trash at road crossings etc

I would suggest a key point in this discussion is that the people who are irresponsible enough to little in the woods don't really give a rip about roadside trash bins. Once the trash is packed up to carry, continuing to carry it isn't a big deal. It's taking the trouble to manage the trash responsibly to begin with that is the problem.

I'm betting that if you put roadside trash bins at every road crossing along the AT you would see almost exactly the same amount of trash being strewn along the trail and in campsites by the same people that are doing it now. A few more backpackers might be willing to pick up trash if they new there was a disposal site nearby, so the trail might stay a bit cleaner. BUT, I have a hard time believing that roadside trash bins would end up really making much difference. And if it did, it would simply make it easier for the rest of us to clean up after the littering scum instead of leading to the littering scum becoming more responsible.

perdidochas
07-03-2018, 12:51
I would suggest a key point in this discussion is that the people who are irresponsible enough to little in the woods don't really give a rip about roadside trash bins. Once the trash is packed up to carry, continuing to carry it isn't a big deal. It's taking the trouble to manage the trash responsibly to begin with that is the problem.

I'm betting that if you put roadside trash bins at every road crossing along the AT you would see almost exactly the same amount of trash being strewn along the trail and in campsites by the same people that are doing it now. A few more backpackers might be willing to pick up trash if they new there was a disposal site nearby, so the trail might stay a bit cleaner. BUT, I have a hard time believing that roadside trash bins would end up really making much difference. And if it did, it would simply make it easier for the rest of us to clean up after the littering scum instead of leading to the littering scum becoming more responsible.

I agree with you 100%. The roadside trash bins aren't going to make the current litterers not litter. The only possible effect it could have is that the responsible people might be more likely to pick up other people's litter, if they didn't think they had to carry it as far. That's a stretch, IMHO. Those of us who carry out extra litter, will do it regardless of roadside bins. Those of us who don't, probably won't start.

George
07-03-2018, 23:19
A few more backpackers might be willing to pick up trash if they new there was a disposal site nearby,.

that would be me, and I expect many others - if that were the case this conversation would likely not be happening

my policy:
I carry my own garbage as far as it takes - others garbage for a day, but seldom can you predict a disposal spot so.......

lucky luke
07-04-2018, 02:11
i loved this sign! only time on the trail i knew for much longer i would have to haul my trash!

https://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/7/5/5/0/img409_thumb.jpg (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=62787)

Leo L.
07-04-2018, 02:43
There is a theory called "Broken Windows" or something like that:
As soon as in an empty house one window gets broken, its declared being a ruin for free misuse and destruction, by some obscure law.

Several years ago, I bought a tiny place that includes an old house, near our place. It was exactly following the Broken Windows law: As soon as one glass got smashed, the other windows didn't stay undamaged for longer than a few months.
And there was a thicket in a corner at the edge of the public road where everybody was tempted to dump some thrash, mostly beverage cans and food/candy wrappers.

I repaired all windows and closed the blinds, cut down the thicket and removed all rubbish, and keep on doing so on a regular basis.
People quickly accepted that this is "my place" and that I do care, and no more littering and windows-smashing happened.

I think the same is true for the trail: As soon as people see that somebody cares, the littering will stop.

tdoczi
07-04-2018, 07:24
There is a theory called "Broken Windows" or something like that:
As soon as in an empty house one window gets broken, its declared being a ruin for free misuse and destruction, by some obscure law.

Several years ago, I bought a tiny place that includes an old house, near our place. It was exactly following the Broken Windows law: As soon as one glass got smashed, the other windows didn't stay undamaged for longer than a few months.
And there was a thicket in a corner at the edge of the public road where everybody was tempted to dump some thrash, mostly beverage cans and food/candy wrappers.

I repaired all windows and closed the blinds, cut down the thicket and removed all rubbish, and keep on doing so on a regular basis.
People quickly accepted that this is "my place" and that I do care, and no more littering and windows-smashing happened.

I think the same is true for the trail: As soon as people see that somebody cares, the littering will stop.
do you mean this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

interesting interpretation of it if so, but i think this one is more accurate-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

somers515
07-04-2018, 11:35
do you mean this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

interesting interpretation of it if so, but i think this one is more accurate-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Many years ago I served briefly on a community advisory board for PATH (NJ's version of the subway near Hoboken/Jersey City for those not familiar) and they expressed that there were studies done that demonstrated if vandalism was quickly repaired that overall vandalism rates dropped. So at one point vandals were scratching the glass panes of the PATH trains, and if they left the scratches more and more would appear, but if they started immediately replacing the glass then the rates of scratching on the glass dropped dramatically. I think that's the idea Leo is referring to.

Personally I hate seeing litter while out in the woods and if I'm my way into town that day or otherwise know I will pass by a trash can then I will pick it up and I think back to this claim by those that operated the PATH trains and hope that not only am I eliminating this litter today but I may be reducing the rate of future litter as well. Anyway that's what I hope is true, I haven't reviewed the studies directly myself. If anyone happens to knows about these studies, I for one, would be interested in a link or two.

tdoczi
07-04-2018, 12:00
Many years ago I served briefly on a community advisory board for PATH (NJ's version of the subway near Hoboken/Jersey City for those not familiar) and they expressed that there were studies done that demonstrated if vandalism was quickly repaired that overall vandalism rates dropped. So at one point vandals were scratching the glass panes of the PATH trains, and if they left the scratches more and more would appear, but if they started immediately replacing the glass then the rates of scratching on the glass dropped dramatically. I think that's the idea Leo is referring to.

Personally I hate seeing litter while out in the woods and if I'm my way into town that day or otherwise know I will pass by a trash can then I will pick it up and I think back to this claim by those that operated the PATH trains and hope that not only am I eliminating this litter today but I may be reducing the rate of future litter as well. Anyway that's what I hope is true, I haven't reviewed the studies directly myself. If anyone happens to knows about these studies, I for one, would be interested in a link or two.

what youre expressing is also very similar to the idea, popularized briefly in NYC, of "broken windows" policing. in short, thats the theory that if you allow a neighborhood to have things like litter, broken windows, vandalism, etc that eventually "real" crime starts happening- robbery, assault, etc.

ive heard of this idea you speak of that is close to all of these that says when there is some litter (or vandalism) more appears. but when someone speaks of the "broken window" theyre generally not referring to that.

i still think the tragedy of the commons is the closest to the situation on the AT if you remove the economic angle.

Leo L.
07-04-2018, 14:13
what youre expressing is also very similar to the idea, popularized briefly in NYC, of "broken windows" policing. in short, thats the theory that if you allow a neighborhood to have things like litter, broken windows, vandalism, etc that eventually "real" crime starts happening- robbery, assault, etc...
Thats what I was referring to, sorry for my lack of English, and especially Americanism.
It worked in my case, exactly to the point.

somers515
07-04-2018, 20:53
I agree tdoczi, probably both ideas at play on the AT.

Glad it worked out for you Leo!

perdidochas
07-05-2018, 12:41
There is a theory called "Broken Windows" or something like that:
As soon as in an empty house one window gets broken, its declared being a ruin for free misuse and destruction, by some obscure law.

Several years ago, I bought a tiny place that includes an old house, near our place. It was exactly following the Broken Windows law: As soon as one glass got smashed, the other windows didn't stay undamaged for longer than a few months.
And there was a thicket in a corner at the edge of the public road where everybody was tempted to dump some thrash, mostly beverage cans and food/candy wrappers.

I repaired all windows and closed the blinds, cut down the thicket and removed all rubbish, and keep on doing so on a regular basis.
People quickly accepted that this is "my place" and that I do care, and no more littering and windows-smashing happened.

I think the same is true for the trail: As soon as people see that somebody cares, the littering will stop.

I did an experiment on this back a few years ago when my sons were playing soccer, and I had to wait around during practice. I got bored, was looking around and saw an awful lot of garbage. I spent the next hour and a half, picking up garbage. Filled up a 40 gallon trash can. Did the same the next practice (to finish up the area). Some other parents helped out the second time. I didn't clean up again, because two weeks later, it looked like I had never done a thing.

perdidochas
07-05-2018, 12:42
what youre expressing is also very similar to the idea, popularized briefly in NYC, of "broken windows" policing. in short, thats the theory that if you allow a neighborhood to have things like litter, broken windows, vandalism, etc that eventually "real" crime starts happening- robbery, assault, etc.

ive heard of this idea you speak of that is close to all of these that says when there is some litter (or vandalism) more appears. but when someone speaks of the "broken window" theyre generally not referring to that.

i still think the tragedy of the commons is the closest to the situation on the AT if you remove the economic angle.

I agree, it's more like the tragedy of the commons.

Grampie
07-05-2018, 13:08
Pack it in, pack it out.

It's all about taking pride in doing what you are doing. You are either a person who takes pride in the AT and what it means to the many users, than you practice LNT. If not you are just another S--t head who doesn't care about anything but your self.
As a past thru-hiker I can say, From what I have observed, most thru-hikers carry out their trash. Packing out your trash is just something most thru-hikers do. It's part of the deal when you use the trail.