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spfleisig
07-09-2018, 08:00
NOLS' lightning protocol says not to stand near the entrance of a cave or small overhangs in a storm. If you are on trail, is standing in your typical shelter basically the same as standing near a cave opening? Or asked another way...is getting to a shelter a good option to reduce the chance of getting zapped or a bad option? Is your answer your opinion, or based on "professional" knowledge/experience?

Thanks

Sarcasm the elf
07-09-2018, 08:32
I’m no expert (though I do play one on the internet ;)) So I can’t tell you whether shelters are more or less safe than it would be to just stand in the open in the same spot, but I can tell you that 3 sided shelters do not provide lightning protection, at least according to the experts:

http://www.ngcoa.org/infocentral/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/Small%20Shelters%20and%20Safety%20from%20Lightning .doc

My $0.02 is that since shelters are generally in the woods they’re relatively safe, and the roof can protect against small to moderate sized falling branches which is nice. I would not personally trust the rare shelter that is on a ridge or in an exposed area.

greenmtnboy
07-09-2018, 08:39
There is way too much fear thrown out in US society on this and so many other subjects; I have hiked during thunderstorms, your chance of being hit is minuscule, still I would avoid being near commonly lightning hit objects like metal towers.

Slo-go'en
07-09-2018, 08:53
There is way too much fear thrown out in US society on this and so many other subjects; I have hiked during thunderstorms, your chance of being hit is minuscule, still I would avoid being near commonly lightning hit objects like metal towers.

About 300 people a year are stuck by lightning. Of those, only 13 people were killed by lightning in 2017, the lowest number ever. On average over the last 10 years, 27 people get killed by lightning. Back in 1942, 432 people were killed by lightning.

Fewer people working in open fields like farms is one reason for the much lower numbers these days. Better and quicker treatment for people struck by lightning has also reduced the number of deaths. 70% of those killed by lightning are male.

Florida had the most lightning deaths last year, followed by Alabama, NC and Colorado with three each.

Sarcasm the elf
07-09-2018, 09:09
There is way too much fear thrown out in US society on this and so many other subjects; I have hiked during thunderstorms, your chance of being hit is minuscule, still I would avoid being near commonly lightning hit objects like metal towers.
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/conditional_risk.png

BlackCloud
07-09-2018, 09:24
Go inside the cave. Problem solved.

fiddlehead
07-09-2018, 09:44
I believe that lightning travels down ravines and cracks as well as spreads across exposed (wet) roots and of course, barbed wire fences.
I tend to try to stay away from all of those as much as possible, especially when lightning is closer than 3 seconds.
Last year, we had it very close to us on our Via Dinarica hike as we ran across an open field to an abandoned house and then hid in the stable with the cow ****. Fastest mile we did on the whole trail.

HooKooDooKu
07-09-2018, 10:00
The reason you are warned not to stand near the entrance of a cave or under an over-hang is because electrical charges concentrate near pointed objects given rise to a greater chance lighting will strike at that point than somewhere else.

To Sarcasm the elf's point, lighting is more likely to strike something taller than something shorter. A dense canopy of trees is considered a relatively safe area (lots of targets taller than you), where as a lone tree is dangerous being the most likely target in the area. So a shelter in a dense canopy of trees is probably a relatively save spot because the numerous taller pointed trees around the shelter.

Feral Bill
07-09-2018, 10:46
Go inside the cave. Problem solved. Only a solution if the cave is deep. Shallow caves, such as overhangs, are considered dangerous. I was planning a ridge hike starting tomorrow, but thunderstorms are forecast. I'll head out Wednesday and not have to worry about it.

Tipi Walter
07-09-2018, 11:51
When push comes to shove, the natural inclination is to bail off the high ground or ridge and get into a valley.

One time I was camped on a TN ridge at 3,500 feet and heard ominous storm news pinging on my little radio so I packed up and did a nighthike 2 miles down and a loss of 1,500 feet to a creek valley. The storm raged up above but I felt safe in the valley.

lonehiker
07-09-2018, 12:17
The reason you get to lower (ravines, depressions etc.) areas is to reduce the risk of the lateral strikes. Ya the statistics indicate that the odds are pretty small that you will be hit. But I've had a couple of strikes so near to me that I could taste it. I have a healthy respect for them.

JPritch
07-09-2018, 13:05
Man do I hate statistics, and I'm a data guy at work. I don't care what the "odds" are, if that 1 in whatever chance can kill me, I take it seriously. People can twist statistics for darn near anything, to downplay carrying bear spray for example, and even terrorism. I wonder if Florida being #1 for strikes is due to all the boating activity? I've been on a river a few times with lightning touching down as close as 100 yds, and it's pucker factor 10 when you realize you're one of the tallest objects on the water.

HooKooDooKu
07-09-2018, 13:15
I wonder if Florida being #1 for strikes is due to all the boating activity?
I've always assumed Florida was a high strike area because the state is pretty much flat (after all, isn't Disney's Expedition Everest the highest point in the state? :) ), combined with a region where storms are frequent (i.e. we're not talking dessert territory).

Slo-go'en
07-09-2018, 15:14
The reason you get to lower (ravines, depressions etc.) areas is to reduce the risk of the lateral strikes. Ya the statistics indicate that the odds are pretty small that you will be hit. But I've had a couple of strikes so near to me that I could taste it. I have a healthy respect for them.

Risk factor depends on activity and location. Pretty much being in any open area when the afternoon T storms come rolling in.

Florida is #1 for the number of yearly lightning strikes and combined with all the outdoor activities like boating and golfing, no surprise they are #1 for deaths.

MtDoraDave
07-09-2018, 16:22
Golfers hide under trees to hide from storms. Lots of boaters out on the water with nowhere to hide ... and we just get a LOT of thunderstorms.

A friend of a friend just lost their donkey Friday - it was under a tree that got hit by lightning.

I've been in my tent during a thunderstorm while camped on the infield of Daytona. Rationally, I realized there were lots of great lightning conductors around the perimeter of the track, but it was still pretty nerve racking.

Had plenty of rain on the trail, but not much thunder/ lightning. If one came up, the same general rules would apply:
stay off a ridge
Stay out from under the tallest trees around.

Lightning doesn't follow all the rules, so do your best and try not to panic.

middle to middle
07-09-2018, 16:37
the trail depression fills with water and lightning is everywhere you are in t he cloud lightning seemingly everywhere no tall trees and I am here to tell the story.
Another timeI was rowing on a small river storm blew in lightning came straight down from a low cloud wide powerful blast. Feat lt buzz in my body and all hair stood on end I rowed to shore and got to a porch on a house.Rattled my cage good.

chiefiepoo
07-09-2018, 16:50
" I wonder if Florida being #1 for strikes is due to all the boating activity?"
Not surprisingly, many people are walking on the beach or watching the cloud wall move in when they are struck. If the storm is over Saint Pete, with a 6 to 10 mile striking range, people on the beach are at risk and might not even know it.

garlic08
07-09-2018, 20:41
I'm glad this topic is getting some more attention. A friend of a friend was killed by lightning on a 14er climb some decades ago after taking shelter in the lee of a large boulder.

The areas described do not attract lightning. But a nearby strike will create very large ground currents, which can then arc across shallow, narrow openings. Those currents are why it's recommended to have only one point of contact with earth.

I heard somewhere that most lightning fatalities are men. Perhaps women have better sense to get out of the storm, and to not stand in the open door or under the eave and watch the show.

cmoulder
07-10-2018, 07:30
Was on top of Kings Peak, UT when the typical afternoon storm rolled thru. Lucky to still be alive.

TexasBob
07-10-2018, 09:02
...........I heard somewhere that most lightning fatalities are men. Perhaps women have better sense to get out of the storm, and to not stand in the open door or under the eave and watch the show.

That would be me. I always figured I was safe if I was under a roof, guess I better rethink that. Thanks.

MuddyWaters
07-10-2018, 10:28
" I wonder if Florida being #1 for strikes is due to all the boating activity?"
Not surprisingly, many people are walking on the beach or watching the cloud wall move in when they are struck. If the storm is over Saint Pete, with a 6 to 10 mile striking range, people on the beach are at risk and might not even know it.
Outdoor activities where you are tallest thing around like fishing, golf, boating contribute. Along with large population.

But , 7 out of 8 cities with most thunderstorms in US are in florida. Its thunderstorm central. Has something to do with it.

This says it all
43126
The most incredible lightning show i ever saw was at a lake i was fishing on in fla in hs. Storm ran me off water and i sat in truck. For 45 light rain min it crackled across sky, linked up with other streamers, etc. It was awesome from a safe place . Like scenes from movie. In 35 yrs ive never seen another like it.

lonehiker
07-10-2018, 11:18
The most incredible lightning show i ever saw was at a lake i was fishing on in fla in hs. Storm ran me off water and i sat in truck. For 45 light rain min it crackled across sky, linked up with other streamers, etc. It was awesome from a safe place . Like scenes from movie. In 35 yrs ive never seen another like it.

Relatively safe but not entirely.

https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/cars-can-be-safe-place-during/17283636

Offshore
07-10-2018, 11:37
Man do I hate statistics, and I'm a data guy at work. I don't care what the "odds" are, if that 1 in whatever chance can kill me, I take it seriously. People can twist statistics for darn near anything, to downplay carrying bear spray for example, and even terrorism. I wonder if Florida being #1 for strikes is due to all the boating activity? I've been on a river a few times with lightning touching down as close as 100 yds, and it's pucker factor 10 when you realize you're one of the tallest objects on the water.

I do statistics and risk assessment for a living, but when it comes to certain things I take the approach that the only data point that counts is me.

spfleisig
07-10-2018, 12:10
I do statistics and risk assessment for a living, but when it comes to certain things I take the approach that the only data point that counts is me.

Now that's funny...

perdidochas
07-10-2018, 13:23
I'm glad this topic is getting some more attention. A friend of a friend was killed by lightning on a 14er climb some decades ago after taking shelter in the lee of a large boulder.

The areas described do not attract lightning. But a nearby strike will create very large ground currents, which can then arc across shallow, narrow openings. Those currents are why it's recommended to have only one point of contact with earth.

I heard somewhere that most lightning fatalities are men. Perhaps women have better sense to get out of the storm, and to not stand in the open door or under the eave and watch the show.

Men are just more outdoorsy and don't come in when it's about to rain. In terms of FL, men fish and play golf more.....

Shaker
07-10-2018, 17:18
I was at a shelter a few weeks ago that had a lightning rod on it. The strike probably wouldn't hurt you, but your eardrums might not survive.

Tinstaafl
07-10-2018, 20:47
If the lightning rod works as intended, you will never see a strike at that location. Their purpose is to bleed off the static charges before they get large enough for a strike.

But while on average they do that more often than not, that's only an average.

blw2
07-10-2018, 22:05
back in the 1980's I was with my dad fishing from his boat offshore a mile or two out. it was a 23ft boat with flying bridge and cabin under it. A storm overtook us, so dad was at the helm down in the cabin, while I stood at the door looking out onto the aft deck, visibility was near zero so we were just idling along, and rain spray from the deck was splashing up on my lower legs....

simultaneous flash bang, and everything went dead.

I felt a tingle up my legs and through my body much like you feel when licking a 9volt battery.
Everything in the boat was dead...radio was out...so we tossed out the anchor and waited for the cell to pass and someone to happen by. Everything seemed ok otherwise, so we figured the lightning hit near the boat and stray currents knocked out the electronics... Later we were towed to the dock.... when tying up someone pointed out that the top of the antenna was gone and what was left was blackened. Turns out that everything electrical in the boat that was switched on was literally melted... puddles of goo.

Anyway, the short point of the long story is that there is some truth, I think, in the idea that it could be dangerous standing at the door or near an open end of the shelter.

cliffordbarnabus
07-11-2018, 00:04
cancer, als, hodgkin's, parkinson's.........or.........lightning out in the woods. i'll take the latter (and maybe even climb a ladder to do so).

MtDoraDave
07-11-2018, 06:43
On vacation in Sanibel island back in the early 80's at the Reef Motel, after a day of too much sun, my mother had my brother and I at the bathroom alcove applying goop to our sunburns. It was afternoon, so the daily storm was doing its thing outside. For fresh air, mom had the front door and the sliding glass doors open so the breeze could blow through the room.
Simultaneous flash bang and a blue streak THROUGH the motel between the open doors.
.
.
.
...so close the back door to the shelter and you'll be fine. :D

garlic08
07-11-2018, 19:21
Men are just more outdoorsy and don't come in when it's about to rain. In terms of FL, men fish and play golf more.....

Yes I agree. I also think, and it may be sexist, that more men have outdoor jobs--utility workers, highway patrol, for example.

MuddyWaters
07-11-2018, 20:10
On vacation in Sanibel island back in the early 80's at the Reef Motel, after a day of too much sun, my mother had my brother and I at the bathroom alcove applying goop to our sunburns. It was afternoon, so the daily storm was doing its thing outside. For fresh air, mom had the front door and the sliding glass doors open so the breeze could blow through the room.
Simultaneous flash bang and a blue streak THROUGH the motel between the open doors.
.
.
.
...so close the back door to the shelter and you'll be fine. :D
Flash...bang. from lightning ...and we had a charred socket/tripped breaker on refrigerator 120 v power plug receptacle once. I was in kitchen when it happened. It looked like lightning struck that receptacle to me, there was flash IN the kitchen, from the window it seemed. This receptacle was at ht of counter backsplash receptacles, and totally behind the refrigerator out of sight, about 12" from edge. Refrigerator was undamaged and worked fine.

Nothing else in house damaged or sign of high voltage spike or another tripped breaker, etc. Tvs were on at time, etc. This was pre -gfci too.

I think lighning struck something, maybe range vent which extended thru roof outside, and then arced across kitchen to that receptacle. The window was closed.

blw2
07-12-2018, 21:14
that one reminds me of a coworker years ago who told me about getting struck inside his kitchen. As I recall, he said it jumped out of the wall phone (back when those things were wall mounted....with a wire)...it jumped out of the phone and from across the room knocked him down. Apparently it struck a tree or something outside near the driveway and traveled through the phone wire.

TexasBob
07-13-2018, 10:01
that one reminds me of a coworker years ago who told me about getting struck inside his kitchen. As I recall, he said it jumped out of the wall phone (back when those things were wall mounted....with a wire)...it jumped out of the phone and from across the room knocked him down. Apparently it struck a tree or something outside near the driveway and traveled through the phone wire.

Back in the day when all phones were wired landlines and most folks just had one phone, lightning melted my Grandmother's phone during a storm. Staying off the phone during thunderstorms used to be common advice back then.

Night Train
07-14-2018, 15:06
Ok, I'll bite........Don't become a conductor or a ground.

Burrhead
07-14-2018, 16:53
The scariest thing I have ever done while backpacking is riding out thunderstorms. It sucks but sometimes it becomes your only option.

MuddyWaters
07-14-2018, 18:07
Back in the day when all phones were wired landlines and most folks just had one phone, lightning melted my Grandmother's phone during a storm. Staying off the phone during thunderstorms used to be common advice back then.
Neighbors sons house recently struck i heard today. Struck tree, came down 30', could be seen on tree, jumped to phone wire, went into house and fried almost everything
Electrical. Tvs, ac system, refrigerator, etc. Home owners covers it but his son has been without ac for 2 weeks now.

NY HIKER 50
07-15-2018, 01:07
Here's my spin: you do not have to be hit directly. The air is also charged and if there is a discharge nearby you can still be killed.

NY HIKER 50
07-15-2018, 01:12
Oh, one other item. don't ever think a storm is moving away. You could have it turn back around like What has happened to me many times. You don't realize this but lightning can hit well away from a storm. I have seen this happen. I was at a shelter and the storm was way away and I figured it was ok to leave. BIG mistake since the lightning hit right behind the shelter and I heard the thunder rumble.

peakbagger
07-15-2018, 06:32
One thing a Wilderness Medical tech mentioned if that CPR is far more effective on electricians and folks who get hit by lighting. CPR is not very effective on old folks remote form a hospital. If folks are hiking in an exposed area they should obviously reduce their exposure but also get some distance from each other. If one person gets impacted by a strike the other person who wasnt can come back and start CPR.

Shaker
07-15-2018, 09:21
One thing a Wilderness Medical tech mentioned if that CPR is far more effective on electricians and folks who get hit by lighting. CPR is not very effective on old folks remote form a hospital. If folks are hiking in an exposed area they should obviously reduce their exposure but also get some distance from each other. If one person gets impacted by a strike the other person who wasnt can come back and start CPR.

IF...CPR is needed. Do NOT start CPR on a person who is unconscious but still has a carotid pulse. I have seen this mistake made even in the hospital, and it can have the opposite effect of your intended consequences.

Shaker

TexasBob
07-15-2018, 14:59
Neighbors sons house recently struck i heard today. Struck tree, came down 30', could be seen on tree, jumped to phone wire, went into house and fried almost everything
Electrical. Tvs, ac system, refrigerator, etc. Home owners covers it but his son has been without ac for 2 weeks now.

Glad nobody got hurt and they have insurance. Lightning hit a big pine near our house once, stripped the bark all off one side and strangely enough it must have traveled along a root which was close to the surface because it blew all the soil off the root exposing it for about 6 feet.

BuckeyeBill
07-18-2018, 15:42
In my younger years, I was a football official on the high school and collegiate level. When there were storms predicted for the area, someone from the home team had monitor weather conditions both visually and electronically. If as an official we saw lightning bolts, we immediately suspend play until conditions cleared, even if it meant completing the game the following day.

JPritch
07-18-2018, 16:21
IF...CPR is needed. Do NOT start CPR on a person who is unconscious but still has a carotid pulse. I have seen this mistake made even in the hospital, and it can have the opposite effect of your intended consequences.

This may be as true as the anecdote of the #1 snake bite victims being 25 yo drunk males, but I was once told the story of a drowning victim being pulled from a pool, and a dentist who happened to be there asking fellow patrons for help holding down the victim so he could do CPR on him. :eek:

JPritch
07-18-2018, 16:26
Staying off the phone during thunderstorms used to be common advice back then.

This has carried on as I've been told before to get off my cell phone during a t-storm.

walkinmyshoes
07-21-2018, 17:17
NOLS' lightning protocol says not to stand near the entrance of a cave
But why? I know so many hikers who don't pay attention to this, so... Are any scientific/statistic study?

MuddyWaters
07-21-2018, 18:09
But why? I know so many hikers who don't pay attention to this, so... Are any scientific/statistic study?

Yes.
Shallow caves and overhangs will find you with ground currents near openings from a strike. Many people have died this way. There is a small cave on halfdome in yosemite for instance, people took shelter in when storms come, that a several groups of people have died in. One had seizure and rolled off and fell to death, people with him couldnt stop it. It was a long fall.....

Now, is it more dangerous than standing on top of halfdome in an electrical storm, where you the lightning rod? No.

But its not safe either is point.

LazyLightning
07-21-2018, 19:16
A lot of AT hikers will hike right through storms, ridge or whatever... what worries me most in a storm is my aluminum trekking poles. Anytime lightning is around I stop hiking and take all metal (poles, pack) off weather near a shelter or not. First I get off a ridge and away from big trees and ill just wait out the storm standing or squatting in the spot I feel safest in, if I cant set up shelter.

LazyLightning
07-21-2018, 19:20
I like to minimize phone/internet use while outdoors as much as possible but I try to keep up on weather/radar and make sure I don't get caught in a storm.... few days ago did a 6 mile day and set up at noon just so I didn't get caught hiking in any lightning.

NY HIKER 50
07-21-2018, 21:22
This has carried on as I've been told before to get off my cell phone during a t-storm.

Uh folks, you are hanging on to old info. The only phone you should get off is the wired kind, not the cell phone. Also, wireless phones are ok in a storm since you are not connected directly to the system. Some of these are OLD WIVES TALES.

Sarcasm the elf
07-21-2018, 21:48
Uh folks, you are hanging on to old info. The only phone you should get off is the wired kind, not the cell phone. Also, wireless phones are ok in a storm since you are not connected directly to the system. Some of these are OLD WIVES TALES.

Much like the “don’t use your cellphone while pumpig gas” urban legend. Actual number of gas pump related fires caused by cellphones: Zero.

cliffordbarnabus
07-21-2018, 23:47
i'd rather be on a ridge and get struck than be in a hospital bed getting struck by cancer, hodgkins, parkinsons, als, etc.

Del Q
07-22-2018, 16:19
All good input but what about the metal in our gear (ie tent stakes, poles) pack, add we are like 70% water.

I have been out in wicked storms, and some FAST hiking and I am pretty big, old and slow...........used to stay in shelters now tents only past 6+ years.............it's a bit of luck. I sleep great in big nasty storms, I figure that if I do get hit it will be instant and then???

I do stay 100 feet or more from the next person - that does make sense to me. Don't be the tallest thing around.