View Full Version : One woman - rescued TWICE on the AT...
https://www.pressherald.com/2018/07/19/hiker-rescued-from-appalachian-trail-twice-in-2-weeks/
Feral Bill
07-20-2018, 00:49
if she's trying a thru, maybe just wore herself out. Duly embarrased, I would hope.
cmoulder
07-20-2018, 06:08
if she's trying a thru, maybe just wore herself out. Duly embarrased, I would hope.
I guess we'll find out 2 weeks from now.
Good thing it happened in a state that really welcomes and embraces thrus.
cneill13
07-20-2018, 06:57
Typical Snowflake. It wasn't her fault. It was that big, bad mountains fault. Unless I was completely knocked out, I couldn't imagine having to be carried down a mountain. But two times??? Really??? She is going to have a rough and disappointing life.
She's Sobo, so maybe she still doesn't know her body.
A quote from Sandy Stott's book "<Critical Hours> Search and Rescue in the White Mountains" when asking a group of young men who volunteer for SAR and we're Maine Guides, trail maintainers, Wardens, avid outdoors people, why, as a group, people who spend so much time outdoors, never call for rescue.
"I'd crawl on my hands and knees for four days before I'd ever call for rescue"
This young woman needs to.learnto crawl
Called for help.
Called for help again.
Cell phones at fault?
Perhaps the SAR team could make an evaluation and decide if the person actually needed assistance?
Conversely, we don’t have any facts and shouldn’t jump to conclusions.
Do stories like this come from the Rockies? I’m genuinely curious. Perhaps people along the Continental Divide are better prepared, self reliant and often lack cell coverage long before they reach the trailhead.
Once again I would like to know the whole story.
Be safe Y’all!
Wayne
TwoSpirits
07-20-2018, 08:11
In 2014 I was at times very literally crawling through the HMW after I smashed my knee. It never occurred to me to call for SAR extraction -- I mean, of course it hurt horribly, but I wasn't bleeding uncontrollably, hadn't hit my head and wasn't in fear for my life. I had shelter and I had food and God knows I had plenty of water (epic rain!) I figured I had gotten myself into the problem and would have to figure out how to get out of it. I just stayed in place for a couple days to see if it could get any better, and then when I realized I had to call it quits I was able to reach a spot with a teeny amount of cell service and call the AT Lodge. Coordinated a spot for them to pick me up the next day -- a mere 4 miles that took me almost 6 hours. (Always & forever a huge shout out to AT Lodge!)
Not trying to sound tough, because I'm not, and I think the area she was at is much more difficult than where I was, but yeah -- I'd really have to be on fear for my life in order to call for rescue.
I hope she's okay and glad no one on the team got hurt.
Time Zone
07-20-2018, 08:14
Typical Snowflake. It wasn't her fault. It was that big, bad mountains fault. Unless I was completely knocked out, I couldn't imagine having to be carried down a mountain. But two times??? Really??? She is going to have a rough and disappointing life.
I missed the part in the article where she was quoted as blaming the mountain. Where did you see that?
FreeGoldRush
07-20-2018, 08:19
You guys are tough. Is it possible she had a serious medical issue and simply thought she had overcome it?
.......................................
Rain Man
07-20-2018, 08:43
So much judgmental keyboard diagnosis.
Slo-go'en
07-20-2018, 08:53
To me, it reads that both times she 'became severely ill'. Makes me think she could have some underlying medical condition and perhaps should not be in such remote areas. Perhaps needs to be doing short section hikes with lots of roads for self-extraction when the illness returns.
Not knowing what caused the illness it's hard to judge, but to have it happen twice in a few weeks rises a red flag or two. Could be an underlying medical condition or maybe food related?
Water Rat
07-20-2018, 09:06
Her first rescue was on July 5th, back when Maine was experience the first real heat AND extreme humidity of the season. If I remember correctly, she was one of the ones rescued due to heat related illness from the 100 Mile.
I have no idea what she is experiencing this round, but it is possible the heat related illness exacerbated an unknown health issue. It's also possible she had a knee-jerk reaction after needing the first rescue. Without all the facts it's wrong to say she acted in an irresponsible manner.
Offshore
07-20-2018, 09:20
Typical Snowflake. It wasn't her fault. It was that big, bad mountains fault. Unless I was completely knocked out, I couldn't imagine having to be carried down a mountain. But two times??? Really??? She is going to have a rough and disappointing life.
Did you actually read the article? I did and she was evacuated for illness on both occasions. No mention was made of her denying responsibility - you read this into the article to support your outrage. As far as your self-professed superior outdoor self-rescue skills and general self-righteousness, at 51 years old you should have learned already that life has a way of putting us in circumstances that we would not have imagined. She's a 21 year old attempting a 2190 mile thru-hike and you're 51 and sitting inside anonymously pounding away baseless criticism on a keyboard - and she's the snowflake?
Called for help.
Perhaps the SAR team could make an evaluation and decide if the person actually needed assistance?
that there is a very large number of people running around now who would vehemently and passionately disagree with this statement is a huge problem.
gpburdelljr
07-20-2018, 09:54
From the article it is known that she was rescued twice, and where she was rescued. There are no other significant facts, yet people want to make all kinds of assumptions. Amazing!
Crushed Grapes
07-20-2018, 09:56
Typical Snowflake. It wasn't her fault. It was that big, bad mountains fault. Unless I was completely knocked out, I couldn't imagine having to be carried down a mountain. But two times??? Really??? She is going to have a rough and disappointing life.
Watch out kids we got a real maverick here
Starchild
07-20-2018, 10:34
In 2014 I was at times very literally crawling through the HMW after I smashed my knee. It never occurred to me to call for SAR extraction -- I mean, of course it hurt horribly, but I wasn't bleeding uncontrollably, hadn't hit my head and wasn't in fear for my life. I had shelter and I had food and God knows I had plenty of water (epic rain!) I figured I had gotten myself into the problem and would have to figure out how to get out of it. I just stayed in place for a couple days to see if it could get any better, and then when I realized I had to call it quits I was able to reach a spot with a teeny amount of cell service and call the AT Lodge. Coordinated a spot for them to pick me up the next day -- a mere 4 miles that took me almost 6 hours. (Always & forever a huge shout out to AT Lodge!)
Not trying to sound tough, because I'm not, and I think the area she was at is much more difficult than where I was, but yeah -- I'd really have to be on fear for my life in order to call for rescue.
I hope she's okay and glad no one on the team got hurt.
As someone who has worked evacuating people, and also has assisted NH Fish and Game, NY Forrest Rangers, and the Forrest Service in the 'Smokies', I do have something to say about your post.
Immediate threats and discomfort aside, one also has to take a look at long term heath effects on stuff like this. Pushing thru could mean a lifetime disability. Not calling to alert them, or a friend when you had the chance to let them know, even if you didn't need rescue, is also potentially calling for a much larger search if things go wrong when you are out of cell service. For that I don't commend what you did, there are people who want to help out and who devote their careers for this purpose, people who care that you are fully able to hike and enjoy hiking again.
With that said I don't know the circumstances in your case, but that attitude of self rescue and self reliance often works, but at a unneeded cost, and sometimes just makes things worse if one misses opportunities for help.
that there is a very large number of people running around now who would vehemently and passionately disagree with this statement is a huge problem.
That was a question.
I probably didn’t word my theoretical question fully.
Suppose a small SAR/EMS team arrives on the scene. Something like this happens: Diagnoses. Treatment if needed. You’re going to be fine tomorrow. Have a nice hike.
A big thumbs up to the second rescue team that arrived promptly and evacuated the lady quickly.
I bought CORSAR cards for my granddaughter and I yesterday. We’ll be in Colorado soon. All you CT/CDT hikers and Colorado visitors in general should do the same.
Cheers!
Wayne
That was a question.
a somewhat rhetorical one i would say
FrogLevel
07-20-2018, 10:58
A lot of tough guy bad asses in this thread.
:rolleyes:
Tipi Walter
07-20-2018, 11:00
You guys are tough. Is it possible she had a serious medical issue and simply thought she had overcome it?
We'll never know because the article has no mention of what kind of illness she had. Overheated? Food poisoning? Bad diarrhea? Migraines? Who knows.
In 2014 I was at times very literally crawling through the HMW after I smashed my knee. It never occurred to me to call for SAR extraction -- I mean, of course it hurt horribly, but I wasn't bleeding uncontrollably, hadn't hit my head and wasn't in fear for my life. I had shelter and I had food and God knows I had plenty of water (epic rain!) I figured I had gotten myself into the problem and would have to figure out how to get out of it. I just stayed in place for a couple days to see if it could get any better, and then when I realized I had to call it quits I was able to reach a spot with a teeny amount of cell service and call the AT Lodge. Coordinated a spot for them to pick me up the next day -- a mere 4 miles that took me almost 6 hours. (Always & forever a huge shout out to AT Lodge!)
Not trying to sound tough, because I'm not, and I think the area she was at is much more difficult than where I was, but yeah -- I'd really have to be on fear for my life in order to call for rescue.
I hope she's okay and glad no one on the team got hurt.
Excellent point!!! I share this general mindset---get out on my own. Of course I was raised without a phone in my shirt pocket so easy escape or rescue was never a viable alternative. And there is probably a strong tendency nowadays for hikers to flippantly call for rescue at the slightest discomfort---not saying this is true in her case though---the article is woefully short on details.
Your other point---STAY IN PLACE FOR A COUPLE DAYS---is the magical potion for backpackers in extremis. I've used this technique countless times to weather food poisoning with vomiting, explosive diarrhea, toothaches, broken toes, walking pneumonia, and the debilitating sickness of Depression etc.
Many backpackers get sick on the trail, especially in the beginning of their hikes. I think I remember Eric Ryback talking about his AT thruhike in 1969 when he got very sick for several days and holed up in his tent.
It could relate to how people deal with sickness at home. Some go to the doctor or clinic at the first sign of problems. Others stick it out and never see a doctor and it passes.
DownYonder
07-20-2018, 11:10
As many have mentioned, we simply do not know the full story. She may have taken some zero days in hopes of recovering or tried, but failed, to get out on her own.
No matter her situation, I have a general question regarding rescues.....who pays for the expenses. Is the evacuee billed for all expenses or are these public services? Does this vary by locality? @StarChild
a question for all the "oh sure you're all tough on the internet" people.
assume for a minute she goes back on the trail again and gets rescued a 3rd time. and then a 4th, a 5th.... dozens of them all the way down to georgia. hike, resuce, hike, rescue, hike, rescue.
at some point, surely, all of you would find that ridiculous behavior i would hope, yes?
well at what point does it become ridiculous?
i don't know the answer, but the opinion that twice within a couple hundred miles is already over the line is perhaps not totally crazy.
TwoSpirits
07-20-2018, 11:20
As someone who has worked evacuating people, and also has assisted NH Fish and Game, NY Forrest Rangers, and the Forrest Service in the 'Smokies', I do have something to say about your post.
Immediate threats and discomfort aside, one also has to take a look at long term heath effects on stuff like this. Pushing thru could mean a lifetime disability. Not calling to alert them, or a friend when you had the chance to let them know, even if you didn't need rescue, is also potentially calling for a much larger search if things go wrong when you are out of cell service. For that I don't commend what you did, there are people who want to help out and who devote their careers for this purpose, people who care that you are fully able to hike and enjoy hiking again.
With that said I don't know the circumstances in your case, but that attitude of self rescue and self reliance often works, but at a unneeded cost, and sometimes just makes things worse if one misses opportunities for help.I understand and respect what you are saying here. And this is the part where I'd say every situation is unique and we all make the best decision we can, the decision we think is right for our unique situation at the time.... And that applies to this young woman as well.
I did not mean to imply any judgement of her in my post, but it did come off as sanctimonious and self-righteous. I regret that.
TwoSpirits
07-20-2018, 11:23
Oh and I meant to add, for what it's worth -- I had actually been in touch with my family and they knew what my situation was and where I was.
.who pays for the expenses. Is the evacuee billed for all expenses or are these public services? Does this vary by locality?
it varies....
here in the Smokies-------it's free...
and here's a link about new hampshire..
https://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/law-enforcement/sar.html
and more detailed..
https://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/law-enforcement/funding.html
Tipi Walter
07-20-2018, 11:25
As many have mentioned, we simply do not know the full story. She may have taken some zero days in hopes of recovering or tried, but failed, to get out on her own.
No matter her situation, I have a general question regarding rescues.....who pays for the expenses. Is the evacuee billed for all expenses or are these public services? Does this vary by locality?
For many rescues I'm familiar with I would surely hope the participants would have to pay for their extractions. Reminds me of 3 guys from South Carolina who planned a 10 day January trip in the Smokies and were terribly unprepared---See---
https://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/2014/01/04/rangers-rescue-stranded-hikers-in-smokies-/4313377/
a question for all the "oh sure you're all tough on the internet" people.
assume for a minute she goes back on the trail again and gets rescued a 3rd time. and then a 4th, a 5th.... dozens of them all the way down to georgia. hike, resuce, hike, rescue, hike, rescue.
at some point, surely, all of you would find that ridiculous behavior i would hope, yes?
well at what point does it become ridiculous?
i don't know the answer, but the opinion that twice within a couple hundred miles is already over the line is perhaps not totally crazy.
Paying for such rescue would curb such abuse. How would I feel if I called for rescue and the helicopter crashed? Or a rescuer got pit viper bit or fell to his death? Calling out is the last resort.
Feral Bill
07-20-2018, 11:32
Do stories like this come from the Rockies? I’m genuinely curious. Perhaps people along the Continental Divide are better prepared, self reliant and often lack cell coverage long before they reach the trailhead.
Once again I would like to know the whole story.
Be safe Y’all!
Wayne In the western mountains, there is rarely any cell coverage, even at trailheads or along roads. When I hike alone (as I usually do) I am extremely careful and prepared, leave an itinerary at home, and hope for the best. I expect that's pretty standard.
Berserker
07-20-2018, 12:21
a question for all the "oh sure you're all tough on the internet" people.
assume for a minute she goes back on the trail again and gets rescued a 3rd time. and then a 4th, a 5th.... dozens of them all the way down to georgia. hike, resuce, hike, rescue, hike, rescue.
at some point, surely, all of you would find that ridiculous behavior i would hope, yes?
well at what point does it become ridiculous?
i don't know the answer, but the opinion that twice within a couple hundred miles is already over the line is perhaps not totally crazy.
I get what you are saying and agree. Perhaps this lady is just extremely unlucky and got hit with 2 unrelated random illnesses, or perhaps she's prone to making bad decisions...with the details presented we don't know. 2 rescues in that short of a period of time with the lack of details provided definitely raises a red flag though.
The reality is we are free to do whatever we want as long as we aren't breaking any laws, and if for sake of discussion she is making bad decisions to go back out too soon then there could be another rescue. It's just like the recent thread on the man that drowned in the Kennebec, and people were bashing the police officer who didn't stop him...he wasn't breaking any laws so why would the officer stop him. It's part of living in a society. Not everyone is going to make intelligent informed decisions, and some people have mental disorders that don't allow them to make such decisions.
As for the "pay for the rescues crowd" I've gone back and forth on this one. On one hand that should theoretically stop any abuse of the system, but then on the other hand you might have people taking more risk because they are afraid of dealing with the bill they will get later.
The reality is we are free to do whatever we want as long as we aren't breaking any laws, and if for sake of discussion she is making bad decisions to go back out too soon then there could be another rescue. It's just like the recent thread on the man that drowned in the Kennebec, and people were bashing the police officer who didn't stop him...he wasn't breaking any laws so why would the officer stop him. It's part of living in a society. Not everyone is going to make intelligent informed decisions, and some people have mental disorders that don't allow them to make such decisions.
.
not for a second endorsing the idea that she should be officially stopped from going back out in any sort of legal way.
i doubt it will play out this way, but it would be interesting if she continues doing this and racks up or 8 or 9 rescues by the time she reaches, lets say, central VA.
would the relevant SAR people have the ability to find her and inform her that if she calls them for rescue they are not responding?
probably not, but they should. this idea, perhaps not stated so boldly but present and underlying the position of many never the less, that we somehow have a right to be rescued needs to end. for myriad reasons.
this reminds me of the hikers in GCNP a few years back who, on the same trip, twice set off their PLB because they had run out of water.
reminds me of people who get back to back DUI's in a short period, like 24 hrs.
I did see an article that included a photo of a a rescuer holding what looked like an IV that had been administered.
http://www.sunjournal.com/ill-hiker-rescued-from-appalachian-trail/
I am not very knowledgeable about such matters, but to me that suggests their presence was a good thing.
Stuff happens.
On the topic of who pays for SAR:
$3/year in Colorado helps defray some of the cost of SAR. As I said earlier, my granddaughter and I have CORSAR cards for an upcoming trip to Colorado.
https://dola.colorado.gov/sar/cardPurchase.jsf
Wayne
Puddlefish
07-20-2018, 18:13
There are reasons men don't live as long as women. Pushing through serious illnesses, the what doesn't kill me makes me stronger... until it kills me... attitude, embarrassment at asking for help, a whole lot of people are found dead of heart attacks with a giant bottle of Tums next to them.
My daughter has hyponatremia, which causes headaches, dizziness, weakness and such when her salt levels get too low. Trying to drink more water can just make the problem worse. This is just one of hundreds of odd little undiagnosed conditions that can cause medical issues on the trail for perfectly competent and prepared hikers.
Stop with the name calling and try to offer your fellow hikers some sort of useful support and information.
peakbagger
07-20-2018, 18:26
Maine does not charge for rescues. It come out the fish and game budget.
NH does charge unless a hiker buys a Hike Safe Card for $25. Even a Hike Safe card does not prevent billing for "reckless or negligent related rescues"
MuddyWaters
07-20-2018, 18:47
Its pretty much a given imo this person excercised poor judgement in some fashion for this to occur.
But its still a good thing they are ok. I for one dont want to come across sick or injured persons and take responsibilty for helping them if theres an option they could have excercised.....and likely no one else here do either.
You can argue need for self reliance, preparedness, etc
But most AT hikers dont fall into that category today. All they need is that cell phone.....when it works. But it dont always, as Ms. Largay experience demonstrated.
Sarcasm the elf
07-20-2018, 19:08
Sure are a lot of psychics taking part in this discussion. It’s the only way to explain the detailed conclusions being drawn from one sparse article.
http://wwwcdn.goldminemag.com/wp-content/uploads/JohnnyCarson_CarnacTheMagnficent_FI.png
MuddyWaters
07-20-2018, 19:15
Sure are a lot of psychics taking part in this discussion. It’s the only way to explain the detailed conclusions being drawn from one sparse article.
http://wwwcdn.goldminemag.com/wp-content/uploads/JohnnyCarson_CarnacTheMagnficent_FI.png
Nope.
Calling for rescue twice in two weeks
While 99.99% of hikers dont in a lifetime
Screams "something not right ". The statistical chance of it happening without poor judgement is tiny.
Given obvious odds, giving them benefit of doubt would be a poor bet. So why would anyone? Its illogical.
Other than its the "polite" thing to do, that is.
Heliotrope
07-20-2018, 21:57
I was out on a section hike last week from Monson to Stratton. I am fairly certain we met this young woman based on the photo and the timing of her hike. She camped with us at Bald mountain pond. And had fallen ill in the 100 mile wilderness the week before. She seemed like a delicate soul. My impression was that she was afraid of being alone in the woods and was lamenting the lack of company. It was curious that she placed her tent so close to ours.
I believe there is a tendency to get injured when there is an underlying fear working on your mind. Perhaps she wanted an excuse to get off trail. I think she needed to know that she was safe. Probably to inexperienced in hiking and life to embark on a solo thru hike.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
... yet secretly longed to complete a thru hike alone to hopefully cure her fears.
Makes sense. I hope she gains confidence. Otherwise her fear is feeding on itself. Sad.
Wayne
gpburdelljr
07-20-2018, 22:19
I hope some of the commenters never serve on a jury, where you are supposed to deal with the facts and not speculation.
gracebowen
07-21-2018, 00:16
I gotta say if I knew there was a hefty bill for SAR I'd be very unlikely to call to my own detriment.
I have a medical issue that occasionally makes me go to the ER. As a vet treatment at aVA facility is free. The ambulance to get there I'm not sure so I usually drive myself.
Got chewed out more than once for driving in that condition.
Disclaimer. Only once did I feel unsafe to drive. I started getting worried about a mile from the hospital. Once I got there I needed assistance to get from parking lot inside.
Every other time I felt safe driving.
Time Zone
07-21-2018, 07:57
I hope some of the commenters never serve on a jury, where you are supposed to deal with the facts and not speculation.
The demand for certainty is one which is natural to man, but is nevertheless an intellectual vice. ... But so long as men are not trained to withhold judgment in the absence of evidence, they will be led astray by cocksure prophets, and it is likely that their leaders will be either ignorant fanatics or dishonest charlatans. To endure uncertainty is difficult, but so are most of the other virtues. - Bertrand Russell
Sarcasm the elf
07-21-2018, 08:12
The demand for certainty is one which is natural to man, but is nevertheless an intellectual vice. ... But so long as men are not trained to withhold judgment in the absence of evidence, they will be led astray by cocksure prophets, and it is likely that their leaders will be either ignorant fanatics or dishonest charlatans. To endure uncertainty is difficult, but so are most of the other virtues. - Bertrand Russell
Let me translate that into millenial for you:
Let me translate that into millenial for you:
ehh, as someone who is generally a little bit older than whats considered a millenial i'll counter with we often makes things more complicated than they are to excuse our own failings.
DownYonder
07-21-2018, 08:22
Interesting: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/AazRWIzCsEf6H2QcRbP7J83n3Eq9Mr766sFAoYRY5t8TOOtrtO ybWW0/
Puddlefish
07-21-2018, 08:34
I'm seeing a bunch of internet know it alls, projecting their own beliefs on this situation, and demonstrating a complete lack of interest for details specific her situation, and being unwilling to share their knowledge with those they deem unworthy. Theories range from she's a weak snowflake indicative of her entire generation, to she was unprepared, to I have no idea but she did something wrong and it's entirely her fault for being an idiot, to I'm concerned about my taxpayer dollars being wasted on someone unworthy, to I don't really care if I live or die myself, but she should be more like me. Out on the trail, I don't believe for a second that one of you, having met her and hiked alongside her for an hour, or a day would have demonstrated this complete lack of empathy.
There's nothing wrong with judging her, if you know maybe a bit about her situation, if you know a bit of her background. It's fine to have theories, this is the internet, not the courtroom, but maybe you could withhold the disdainful judgement. The Bertrand Russell quote talks about the balance between the brainless demand for certainty and the brainless withholding of judgement. What some of you are missing is the balance in this quote.
Fine, you're certain that where there's smoke there's fire. How about demonstrating a tiny bit of community spirit, presenting your theory on what you think she did wrong, and give some good old fashioned practical hiker advice, instead of simply tearing her down in a weird attempt to demonstrate your own superiority.
Act like a community of supportive hikers, not like a bunch of bitter old men who are pissed off that someone unworthy is having a difficult time joining our fellowship. Do you really want to be part of a hiker hate community, where we all gather and mock hikers for not being as smart and worthy as we are?
My advice to her, is simply to go see a doctor before going back out on the trail, describe the situation and maybe have some tests run. If it's a heat/hydration problem, maybe stop for an hour or so mid day. I know that most of you have far more hiking experience in a vast range of conditions than I do. Help me out here and use that experience for good.
Edited a few times for grammar.
I know that most of you have far more hiking experience in a vast range of conditions than I do. Help me out here and use that experience for good.
sure i'll help- whatever it is/was wrong it would the height of irresponsible and not behavior any of us should condone for her to go back out into the woods to try again with the attitude that if she again feels unwell she can just call for a rescue again.
hows that?
Puddlefish
07-21-2018, 09:01
sure i'll help- whatever it is/was wrong it would the height of irresponsible and not behavior any of us should condone for her to go back out into the woods to try again with the attitude that if she again feels unwell she can just call for a rescue again.
hows that?
That was actually slightly better than the crap being thrown up before. A bit judgy of you to believe it's an attitude problem, but that's just you being you.
Called for help.
Called for help again.
Cell phones at fault?
Perhaps the SAR team could make an evaluation and decide if the person actually needed assistance?
Conversely, we don’t have any facts and shouldn’t jump to conclusions.
Do stories like this come from the Rockies? I’m genuinely curious. Perhaps people along the Continental Divide are better prepared, self reliant and often lack cell coverage long before they reach the trailhead.
Once again I would like to know the whole story.
Be safe Y’all!
Wayne
Unfortunately even sillier stories have been happening out west.
1) Guy hits spot on Whitney Approach trail. Rescuers come. He won't go to the hospital, he only wanted a ride to his car. They made him walk out.
2) Women just north of I-80 on the PCT in mid-May. Has phone apps, knows exactly where she is, has plenty of food and is within a couple hundred yards of a closed forest service road. Posts out on Facebook that she's scared. Ends up calling the rangers to pick her up on that closed road. Is hailed as an epic adventurer by the facey groupies.
3) Two hikers last year, late season, north of Stevens Pass. Struggled in prior section, Knows a major storm is coming, tells family that they will hit their spot button if they get in trouble. Snow hits, loses phone battery and all ability to navigate. Presses spot and rescuers snatch them a couple of days later.
I believe all three of cases should have the bills sent to the irresponcpsible people involved. With the plethora of information making everyone an epic adventurer combined with the instant gratification of pushing the button and get a rescue Uber ride will make these sad stories more commonplace. Plus, lets not forget Johnies mommy who get on Facebook and says Johnie must be in trouble, "He always messages me every night as he is snuggling with his teddy bear. There must be something wrong." I would love to know the increase in calls to S&R from Johns's mommy.
Tipi Walter
07-21-2018, 09:19
Sure are a lot of psychics taking part in this discussion. It’s the only way to explain the detailed conclusions being drawn from one sparse article.
Then again, there are some of us who are using her plight to discuss in general the tendency to call out for help when other alternatives could be available. It's a discussion not only of her but of backcountry rescues in general.
Two of the best things I took from the article - 1) She was safely rescued. That's good! She couldn't walk out on her own. If they carried her out in a gurney that's typically telling of her medical condition. 2) Second best part of the article that no one posting failed to mention:
The warden service offered the following tips for hikers:
n Always tell a responsible person where you are going, where you will park, what route you will take and what time you will be back;
n Bring enough supplies to spend the night;
n Sign every sign-in book you pass, with the date and time;
n Do not overestimate your abilities or speed on the trail;
n Have a good communication plan while in often poor cellphone coverage areas.
I guess everyone is so evolved that they could never get into a situation because they follow these tips, always making the right decisions?
We tend towards seeing ourselves in a higher light than we are.
I've come perilously close to dying several times as a backpacker because of my own bad decisions. And, I'm not referring to AT road crossings. It's hard to definitively say what this woman personally experienced.
I will say over reliance on assistance and communication through electronic connectivity is going to lead to fatalities and more S&R efforts.
Unfortunately even sillier stories have been happening out west.
1) Guy hits spot on Whitney Approach trail. Rescuers come. He won't go to the hospital, he only wanted a ride to his car. They made him walk out.
2) Women just north of I-80 on the PCT in mid-May. Has phone apps, knows exactly where she is, has plenty of food and is within a couple hundred yards of a closed forest service road. Posts out on Facebook that she's scared. Ends up calling the rangers to pick her up on that closed road. Is hailed as an epic adventurer by the facey groupies.
3) Two hikers last year, late season, north of Stevens Pass. Struggled in prior section, Knows a major storm is coming, tells family that they will hit their spot button if they get in trouble. Snow hits, loses phone battery and all ability to navigate. Presses spot and rescuers snatch them a couple of days later.
I believe all three of cases should have the bills sent to the irresponcpsible people involved. With the plethora of information making everyone an epic adventurer combined with the instant gratification of pushing the button and get a rescue Uber ride will make these sad stories more commonplace. Plus, lets not forget Johnies mommy who get on Facebook and says Johnie must be in trouble, "He always messages me every night as he is snuggling with his teddy bear. There must be something wrong." I would love to know the increase in calls to S&R from Johns's mommy.
Amen! Brother!
I pray it's not me. Meanwhile there have been cases in recent memory where a SPOT/INREACH/PLB would have saved a life. Otter on the CDT outside Chama, NM comes to mind.
Be safe Y'all!
Wayne
Time Zone
07-21-2018, 18:19
Then again, there are some of us who are using her plight to discuss in general the tendency to call out for help when other alternatives could be available. It's a discussion not only of her but of backcountry rescues in general.
There's definitely a valid discussion to be had around that, but there's more than a little specific victim-blaming here well before the facts are in. There's some virtue-signaling too, which is ironic since it seems to come from a generation (me included) that tends to be quick to decry it among millennials.
It may well be too easy these days to call for rescue, and no doubt people vary in how quickly they're willing to use that ability. Without PLBs and so forth, people on average would probably be more careful. But I'm not ready to throw this young woman under the bus without the facts of her situation. Even then, how helpful is that? Rangers and SAR don't need me to get filled with indignation on their behalf. They can stand up for themselves, if it's even appropriate here. Which remains to be seen.
FreeGoldRush
07-21-2018, 23:09
I have a general question regarding rescues.....who pays for the expenses. Is the evacuee billed for all expenses or are these public services? Does this vary by locality? @StarChild
In many cases a rescue simply replaces training. Also keep in mind that most of the people doing this stuff love to do it. So the true net cost is kinda hard to calculate IMO. I do not believe some of the crazy high estimates. Even if a helicopter is used it is important to realize that it might have been flying anyway on that particular day. Aircraft and crew don't just sit in a garage until they are needed. It doesn't work that way.
MuddyWaters
07-21-2018, 23:35
In many cases a rescue simply replaces training. Also keep in mind that most of the people doing this stuff love to do it. So the true net cost is kinda hard to calculate IMO. I do not believe some of the crazy high estimates. Even if a helicopter is used it is important to realize that it might have been flying anyway on that particular day. Aircraft and crew don't just sit in a garage until they are needed. It doesn't work that way.
Localities that depend on outdoor tourism for income have no desire to charge for SAR. But in recent years the proliferation of unprepared people calling for help has stretched budgets so that it has become necessary to charge negligent people in some areas.
Air ambulance is a different story. Those are private ambulance services, and bill up to $900 /minute from time the bird lifts off. Receiving $15,000- 50,000 bills is not uncommon. Better have insurance that covers it. The important thing to know....is insurance will only cover to nearest transfer point if not life threatening. An air ambulance has to drop you at closest trailhead/ground ambulance for a broken leg, or you will be on hook for every minute past that. The ambulance operators will ask you where to go...if you tell them wrong....its extremely costly.
My brother got a bill for $400,000 for an air ambulance trip for his wife once. They wrote it off because she died.
LucyInColor
07-21-2018, 23:47
I'm planning a two week solo hike & bought an inReach with the SOS button because, well, I'll be alone & might need to be rescued. Then I wondered what was enough of an emergency to press the SOS button? A snake bite? Hmmm. Was it poisonous? I don't know. What did it look like? I don't remember, I was running for my life. Is that ankle swollen? Yeah, maybe. How long should I wait to decide? Am I feeling sick? I don't know, scared though. What will it cost if I press the SOS button in one of the three states I'll be in? So...I bought insurance to pay the cavalry who might take me to a trail head where my health insurance will pick up the tab. I hope. But back to the original question. What is enough of an emergency to press that SOS button?
Emerson Bigills
07-21-2018, 23:50
Lots of questions unanswered in this one. I would say she is a slow learner.
SoaknWet
07-22-2018, 07:39
It's nice to sit here, invisible, at the keyboard and judge our fellow humans for everything under the sun from size, color, religion and mistakes or weakness and then use that same invisible keyboard to hide our own! The girl made a mistake, wasn't ready to give up, made a second one big deal, didn't cost anyone here a dime! But made your day to feel good about yourself to judge another!
Interesting: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/AazRWIzCsEf6H2QcRbP7J83n3Eq9Mr766sFAoYRY5t8TOOtrtO ybWW0/
160 oz of water, all her containers filled ***. No wonder she needed rescue. Halfof that stuff needed to be left home, or in the dumpster.
It's nice to sit here, invisible, at the keyboard and judge our fellow humans for everything under the sun from size, color, religion and mistakes or weakness and then use that same invisible keyboard to hide our own! The girl made a mistake, wasn't ready to give up, made a second one big deal, didn't cost anyone here a dime! But made your day to feel good about yourself to judge another!
I'm from Maine. My tax money paid for those two trips. To say it didn't cost anyone here a dime is foolish. I hike in NH. I drop money into the box at IME sports to support MRS. I buy A hike safe card. Hopefully I'll never have to use either service.
FreeGoldRush
07-22-2018, 08:40
Localities that depend on outdoor tourism for income have no desire to charge for SAR. But in recent years the proliferation of unprepared people calling for help has stretched budgets so that it has become necessary to charge negligent people in some areas.
Air ambulance is a different story. Those are private ambulance services, and bill up to $900 /minute from time the bird lifts off. Receiving $15,000- 50,000 bills is not uncommon. Better have insurance that covers it. The important thing to know....is insurance will only cover to nearest transfer point if not life threatening. An air ambulance has to drop you at closest trailhead/ground ambulance for a broken leg, or you will be on hook for every minute past that. The ambulance operators will ask you where to go...if you tell them wrong....its extremely costly.
My brother got a bill for $400,000 for an air ambulance trip for his wife once. They wrote it off because she died.
The amount printed on a bill and the actual cost of something are two different things. I can charge you $1,000 for an ice cream cone. It doesn't mean it costs that much to serve ice cream.
cneill13
07-22-2018, 09:22
I bet if they handed Ms Snowflake a bill after the first rescue she wouldn't have been so quick to call for the second one. She obviously suffered no personal consequence for the first rescue. At least she got a public shaming which she richly deserves.
On a sidenote, did you notice how many handlers there were carrying her. Her stupidity in going back on the trail was a personal risk to each one of them.
Litter carries are very labor intensive. 6 to 8 people in, preferably, 3 to 4 teams, plus, the teams support personell. Not all of them are volunteers. Some are paid employees of the state: Warden service, police officers, Conservation officers, National Guardsmen. They get paid. So, billing g someone for being g stupid is a way to teach them. Education is expensive.
My friend, when he was younger, broke up with his high school girlfriend. For some reason, he thought he could fo better. Months go by, he's still single and she shows up to a party we are at with a new boyfriend. He gets all depressed and goes home and swallows a bunch of pills. He's sharing a trailer with my brother at the time. My brother goes home, finds him passed out on the floor, an empty bottle of Tylenol, or Advil, by his hand and calls the rescue service. Weeks later he gets the bill and said he felt like killing himself again. He never tried it again. 35 years later, two marriages and two divorces later, he's still kicking.
nsherry61
07-22-2018, 10:24
. . . So, billing g someone for being g stupid is a way to teach them. . . My friend, . . . passed out on the floor, an empty bottle of Tylenol, or Advil, . . . Weeks later he gets the bill and . . . He never tried it again. . .
Are you seriously trying to suggest that an attempted suicide can be prevented by fear of a large medical bill?!
NOT cool and NOT helpful!
Fear of large bills may be helpful in reducing the likelihood of doing careless and dangerous things, but suggesting that suicide decisions are, in any way, connected to such fears is silly, irresponsible, naive, and dangerous if you every want to truly help someone that is considering killing themselves.
Traffic Jam
07-22-2018, 11:12
All I know is she’s alive and this guy isn’t. Why no comments/criticism on that thread?
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/130108-Body-Along-Appalachian-Trail-Identified-Blue-Ridge-Outdoors-Magazine-(blog)
Are you seriously trying to suggest that an attempted suicide can be prevented by fear of a large medical bill?!
NOT cool and NOT helpful!
Fear of large bills may be helpful in reducing the likelihood of doing careless and dangerous things, but suggesting that suicide decisions are, in any way, connected to such fears is silly, irresponsible, naive, and dangerous if you every want to truly help someone that is considering killing themselves.
I don't care if it's cool or not. That's the story. If it offends you, well suck it up buttercup. I'm not here to spare your sensitive feelings.
Question:
Should the rescue personnel who administered what looks to be an IV in the photo I linked be fired for doing so in a situation where it was “clearly” not indicated?
If it was not clear, my last post was peppered with a bit of sarcasm.
That said, I think there are two things that deserve scrutiny whenever looking at those situations:
1. What did the person requesting a rescue do to put themselves in their situation
2. Was the rescue really needed
One thing to consider when pondering point number one is what couch potato / golfing taxpayers (even those in Maine) might think of ANYONE participating in adventure sports, and why doing so could reasonbly be considered bring on the situation yourself.
As for number two — that’s a harder call. From what I am reading hear it sounds like no one should have called authorities if they encountered the girl who was eventually rescued, right?
nsherry61
07-22-2018, 12:18
I don't care if it's cool or not. That's the story. If it offends you, well suck it up buttercup. I'm not here to spare your sensitive feelings.
Probably shouldn't reply to this publicly, but alas, I can't resist. This isn't a feelings thing.
There is nothing about your story that is offensive. It is your horribly missguided conclusions implying that the fear of a large medical bill can be helpful in stopping someone from killing themselves! Dude, that's just plain naive and potentially hurtful to people in need.
Time Zone
07-22-2018, 13:18
160 oz of water, all her containers filled ***. No wonder she needed rescue. Halfof that stuff needed to be left home, or in the dumpster.
That's not her gearlist.
If you look at the alt-text from mousing over, it explains that it is Andrew Skurka's starting gear list from his first AT hike. And checking this link -
https://andrewskurka.com/adventures/appalachian-trail/gear-list-starting/
indeed it is.
Still want to rush to judgment?
Uncle Joe
07-22-2018, 15:49
Not a fan of billing for rescues. It's something they've completely gotten away from in the Canadian Rockies for a very good reason: it deters people from seeking help. Billy doesn't call for rescue because Billy is afraid of incurring a $10k rescue bill. So Billy attempts to self-rescue after a fall and severe head injury. Billy eventually dies and his body is found and reported to SAR who has to go recover his body anyway. So now you have to one to bill for a rescue and are forced to do the job you're paid to do anyway.
That said, I see no problem with imposing fines for people that call SAR for trivial matters. Have a system in place for arbitrating whether the fine is warranted and I'm good with it. That alone accomplishes the stated goal of making sure people understand what SAR is for and that tying up limited resources for trivial matters will have consequences.
LucyInColor
07-22-2018, 17:01
That said, I see no problem with imposing fines for people that call SAR for trivial matters. Have a system in place for arbitrating whether the fine is warranted and I'm good with it. That alone accomplishes the stated goal of making sure people understand what SAR is for and that tying up limited resources for trivial matters will have consequences.[/QUOTE]
I think the problem is we don't always know if rescue is necessary when we're in the middle of it. I once broke my arm & was in such pain that I couldn't decide whether to be driven to the hospital. In that moment I thought the pain would go away if everyone left me alone. (Friends called an ambulance, thankfully, and insurance covered it). But, go back to the snake bite example I threw out earlier. You're bitten by a snake, don't know what it looked like, have no idea if it's poisonous, and you're alone and scared out of your gourd. If you hit the SOS button & it was a garden snake are you a snowflake? If you don't hit the SOS button & it was poisonous you could die. So, what qualifies as a big enough emergency?
DownYonder
07-22-2018, 17:26
Who pays is simple. Either obtain insurance or pay your own bill for the rescue. It’s called personal responsibility.
She's an optimist. She's bold. She's an adventurer.
She attempted to stretch her limits. Did she fail? Or, did she succeed at getting farther than she otherwise might have had she not pushed herself?
Admire her.
She's an optimist. She's bold. She's an adventurer.
She attempted to stretch her limits. Did she fail? Or, did she succeed at getting farther than she otherwise might have had she not pushed herself?
Admire her.
You go girl!
I just wish that somewhere down the road we would get an anonymous summary of what exactly happened to her from start to her second evacuation. A summary of her preparation would be nice too.
Information like that would be more beneficial to beginners than years of cyber hiking here.
Cheers Y’all!
Wayne
Uncle Joe
07-22-2018, 18:24
Who pays is simple. Either obtain insurance or pay your own bill for the rescue. It’s called personal responsibility.
Great! We can stop putting tax dollars towards SAR! Save the taxpayer some money since we have other ways to fund it.
Time Zone
07-22-2018, 18:33
It’s called personal responsibility.
Sounds great!
How do you think it applies to post #48 of this thread?
Crushed Grapes
07-22-2018, 19:34
I see the keyboard mavericks are still going *fart*
DownYonder
07-22-2018, 19:59
Sounds great!
How do you think it applies to post #48 of this thread?
No idea what you are asking. I made post #48 because I found the things on Skurka's list interesting. My post #76 referenced the cost of rescues and who should pay....it really has nothing to do with this young woman. I just happen to believe in "the user pays" theory and personal responsibility.
I would love to know the increase in calls to S&R from Johns's mommy.
there one in maine last year or the year before very much like that discussed on here. 2 hikers who were held up by an impassable ford but otherwise perfectly fine had someone send a chopper to go find them.
Question:
Should the rescue personnel who administered what looks to be an IV in the photo I linked be fired for doing so in a situation where it was “clearly” not indicated?
either i'm looking at the wrong photo or there is no obvious IV bag
even if there were, someone complains of feeling sick while out hiking in the heat a bag of fluids is probably SOP.
ive often said half the problem here is there are some number of people working in SAR who just cant wait to rush up the mountain and help someone. sort of like how i've read that newfoundlands will rescue swimmers who arent drowning just cause it's what they do.
either i'm looking at the wrong photo or there is no obvious IV bag
even if there were, someone complains of feeling sick while out hiking in the heat a bag of fluids is probably SOP.
ive often said half the problem here is there are some number of people working in SAR who just cant wait to rush up the mountain and help someone. sort of like how i've read that newfoundlands will rescue swimmers who arent drowning just cause it's what they do.
Good catch. Long sleeve knit shirt. Sleeves down to her wrists. Hands crossed over her abdomen. No place for a drip in her arms. A blanket covering her from abdomen down.
No IV drip.
Wayne
either i'm looking at the wrong photo or there is no obvious IV bag
even if there were, someone complains of feeling sick while out hiking in the heat a bag of fluids is probably SOP.
ive often said half the problem here is there are some number of people working in SAR who just cant wait to rush up the mountain and help someone. sort of like how i've read that newfoundlands will rescue swimmers who arent drowning just cause it's what they do.
Good catch. Long sleeve knit shirt. Sleeves down to her wrists. Hands crossed over her abdomen. No place for a drip in her arms. A blanket covering her from abdomen down.
No IV drip. The article says that she walked some under her own power with assistance.
Wayne
No IV drip.
There were two photos in the link I posted earlier, including this one:
43238
either i'm looking at the wrong photo or there is no obvious IV bag
even if there were, someone complains of feeling sick while out hiking in the heat a bag of fluids is probably SOP.
ive often said half the problem here is there are some number of people working in SAR who just cant wait to rush up the mountain and help someone. sort of like how i've read that newfoundlands will rescue swimmers who arent drowning just cause it's what they do.
I have no idea what or how serious the woman’s medical condition was, or even who called the authorities.
Not sure if everyone feeling sick on a hot day gets put in a sleeping bag and given an IV by the first responders though.
If I came upon a hiker exhibiting signs of severe dehydration (not saying that is what she had, just as a hypothetical) I would not hesitate to call 911myself for their benefit— whether they wanted me to or not.
Would you?
cmoulder
07-23-2018, 07:05
I have no idea what or how serious the woman’s medical condition was, or even who called the authorities.
Not sure if everyone feeling sick on a hot day gets put in a sleeping bag and given an IV by the first responders though.
If I came upon a hiker exhibiting signs of severe dehydration (not saying that is what she had, just as a hypothetical) I would not hesitate to call 911myself for their benefit— whether they wanted me to or not.
Would you?
I am agnostic on this, mainly because these 'news' stories are maddeningly short on details and there is hardly ever follow-up on them. For all we know — and should assume — the woman who was rescued is following this discussion and can provide more details.
But tell me, what would your opinion be if she needs to be rescued again in a few weeks?
I subscribe to the old saying that Once is a fluke, twice is a pattern. Maybe LD hiking simply isn't her 'thing' and she now has two very large clues that suggest she shouldn't try to force the issue.
But tell me, what would your opinion be if she needs to be rescued again in a few weeks?
precisely. even if 100% legit medical issue you cant keep going out and trying as if having to call for rescue is no biggie and all part of the experience.
there is some slight degree of possibility the 2 calls are coincidences arising from 2 separate and unrelated legit medical issues and its all a massive bout of bad luck, but i doubt it.
johnspenn
07-23-2018, 07:29
... Once is a coincidence, twice is a pattern...
Not trying to argue, but definitionally a singular occurrence can not be a "coincidence".
No further commentary offered on the situation at hand, there isn't enough data given to base a judgement upon.
cmoulder
07-23-2018, 07:38
Not trying to argue, but definitionally a singular occurrence can not be a "coincidence".
No further commentary offered on the situation at hand, there isn't enough data given to base a judgement upon.
Good point... Ok, let's say fluke. :)
Traveler
07-23-2018, 07:49
160 oz of water, all her containers filled ***. No wonder she needed rescue. Halfof that stuff needed to be left home, or in the dumpster.
I did not see anything in that Pinterest page beyond a common assortment of lists and maps regarding the AT. I've not seen any follow up reports on incident that describes her gear, the woman's condition, and the rescue itself to reach any conclusions outside some photos of the use of an IV which can be due to several different medical issues. Where did you get the information she carried 10-pounds of water? I am not sure anyone can make a judgement regarding the merit of the first or second rescue.
Having been involved in SAR work, I can say in that community it is preferrable to engage in rescue response over recovery. There are few who will not answer the call to help regardless if they are paid or not.
Puddlefish
07-23-2018, 09:06
I'm certainly questioning if I want to renew my membership to a site that allows it's members to actively drives hikers away from the community.
Sarcasm the elf
07-23-2018, 09:14
I'm certainly questioning if I want to renew my membership to a site that allows it's members to actively drives hikers away from the community.
Being a donating member is well worth it for the access to the “ignore thread” feature alone. A feature which I’ll likely be using on this steaming excuse for a thread in the near future. ;)
43242
I'm certainly questioning if I want to renew my membership to a site that allows it's members to actively drives hikers away from the community.
an honest and legit question- in what ways has this thread done this?
way back at the beginning a post or two used a pejorative to describe the hiker in question. aside from that, i don't see the problem.
its always struck me as odd that people on an internet discussion board will writes posts which, in effect, bemoan the fact that discussion is taking place.
MuddyWaters
07-23-2018, 09:27
Theres two kinds of people
Those that have their opinions, and respectfully allow others to have theirs too.
And then you have those that cannot stand if someone has a different opinion than they do. They argue, criticize, name-call, label, scream, cry, demonstrate, threaten to leave. In positions of authority, they will ban or remove counter viewpoints.
Good riddance to them.
Opinions are based on past experiences as much as current information, btw.
cmoulder
07-23-2018, 09:43
I'm certainly questioning if I want to renew my membership to a site that allows it's members to actively drives hikers away from the community.
Just walk away if it's that bad... no need to give notice. I've done it.
Good tip from Elf on the Ignore option; you can ignore individuals as well as threads!
Puddlefish
07-23-2018, 09:46
an honest and legit question- in what ways has this thread done this?
way back at the beginning a post or two used a pejorative to describe the hiker in question. aside from that, i don't see the problem.
its always struck me as odd that people on an internet discussion board will writes posts which, in effect, bemoan the fact that discussion is taking place.
I love discussions, I love debate. Some people in this thread are clear that they're debating general concerns about the relative ease of rescues, apparently longing for the good old days when you flat out died if you made a mistake on a mountain... and that's a perfectly fine discussion to have, even if I disagree with them. Ideally, it should be moved to it's very own thread.
However some of the people in this thread (including yourself,) are just jumping to very specific conclusions about how it's her attitude, how it's her generation, how it's a moral failing to ask for help on the trail. There's way too much political and morality based agenda laden garbage in these posts. It's self congratulatory, virtue signalling because you survived your youthful stupidity, that's just survivorship bias. How she's an idiot because she didn't have the same genes, the same health, the same teaching that you were so fortunate to have.
These rants are evident all through the website, not just this thread. These rants have very little to do with actual hiking, and much more to do with being a vehicle to whine and complain about things you don't like in the world, like hippies, and socialism and adventurous youth. ... and now I'm guilty of the same thing, complaining about intolerance... but at least I'm not dumping on a specific hiker who ran into some difficulty as an excuse to make my point.
However some of the people in this thread (including yourself,) are just jumping to very specific conclusions about how it's her attitude, how it's her generation, how it's a moral failing to ask for help on the trail. There's way too much political and morality based agenda laden garbage in these posts. It's self congratulatory, virtue signalling because you survived your youthful stupidity, that's just survivorship bias. How she's an idiot because she didn't have the same genes, the same health, the same teaching that you were so fortunate to have.
again, there were a small quantity of early posts that were pejorative in nature. those are long back up the thread and no one has continued just attacking and name calling the hiker in question, certainly not me.
for my part, i like to discuss hypothetical implications of a situation. some, seemingly like yourself, seem to take this as my stating that i know exactly what happened with the exact situation. i don't and that isnt what i am saying. it really just seems to me like batting around hypotheticals is somehow offensive to you and a group of others. i really don't get why.
is this website really better if there are just half as many threads because we don't bother discussing "what ifs?" any more because we don't know all of the details?
Puddlefish
07-23-2018, 10:36
again, there were a small quantity of early posts that were pejorative in nature. those are long back up the thread and no one has continued just attacking and name calling the hiker in question, certainly not me.
for my part, i like to discuss hypothetical implications of a situation. some, seemingly like yourself, seem to take this as my stating that i know exactly what happened with the exact situation. i don't and that isnt what i am saying. it really just seems to me like batting around hypotheticals is somehow offensive to you and a group of others. i really don't get why.
is this website really better if there are just half as many threads because we don't bother discussing "what ifs?" any more because we don't know all of the details?
I hate being quoted in part. I just told you, it wasn't the hypotheticals that was the problem. I just told you that it wasn't only a problem in this thread. Yet you insist on claiming that I seem to be offended by something I just told you I wasn't offended by.
I wonder if Alligator and Mags would consider setting up a Whiteblaze kangaroo court to resolve issues like this?
I did a Facebook search for Ms. Pincumbe but either she doesn't have one or my search skills are too poor. I wanted to invite her to read this thread so that she could deeply apologize to her critics. But perhaps a livestream kangaroo court would be the better way to go? Certain accusers could take turns excoriating her for her weaknesses and poor decisions, and the defendant could bow before their superior skills and judgement.
Anyway, just a thought! Y'all have a nice day. I'm on vacation in Golden, CO and I'm off to day hike the North Table Mesa. I just pray to the baby Jebus that I don't get hurt and need to call for help, or if I do get hurt, I hope the injury is clearly visible -- at a minimum, protruding bones and spurting blood -- and that I get to shelter in place for a couple of days before someone comes to haul away my sunburned carcass.
Sarcasm the elf
07-23-2018, 11:14
I wonder if Alligator and Mags would consider setting up a Whiteblaze kangaroo court to resolve issues like this?
I did a Facebook search for Ms. Pincumbe but either she doesn't have one or my search skills are too poor. I wanted to invite her to read this thread so that she could deeply apologize to her critics. But perhaps a livestream kangaroo court would be the better way to go? Certain accusers could take turns excoriating her for her weaknesses and poor decisions, and the defendant could bow before their superior skills and judgement.
Anyway, just a thought! Y'all have a nice day. I'm on vacation in Golden, CO and I'm off to day hike the North Table Mesa. I just pray to the baby Jebus that I don't get hurt and need to call for help, or if I do get hurt, I hope the injury is clearly visible -- at a minimum, protruding bones and spurting blood -- and that I get to shelter in place for a couple of days before someone comes to haul away my sunburned carcass.
Mags is currently out of the office and doing something epic that I’m quite jealous of. In the meantime I don’t have access to a kangaroo, but can offer you a wallaby if that’s close enough.
43248
cneill13
07-23-2018, 11:41
I'm certainly questioning if I want to renew my membership to a site that allows it's members to actively drives hikers away from the community.
You are as soft as the Snowflake hiker. Will people please toughen up and quit being so hypersensitive. My gosh is unbelievable!!!
I hate being quoted in part. I just told you, it wasn't the hypotheticals that was the problem. I just told you that it wasn't only a problem in this thread. Yet you insist on claiming that I seem to be offended by something I just told you I wasn't offended by.
lets you and i seriously have an exchange of ideas related to the topic of this thread. honestly.
it will involve me giving you a hypothetical. this does not in anyway imply that i know that this was the case with the hiker in question and/or that i am judging for it even if it.
heres the hypothetical-
i have some sort of health problem. the specifics dont matter. this problem in day to day live does not generally cause me issues.
i have never gone backpacking before, but i know that there are things about backpacking that may cause a massive negative spike in my condition. lets say, for sake of argument, if it were unusually hot out and i, for whatever reason, ended up going without water for a certain length of time.
lets say if those conditions were met, i would become incapacitated in such a way as to require rescue. sitting and resting wont solve it. i need medical attention.
i go backpacking. its hot. 2 water sources are dry. bam, i need to be rescued.
after 2 days of rest and receiving medical treatment i'm fine.
do i go back out and hike more? i can tell myself, and it may even be true, that those exact conditions that caused me to be rescued can be avoided and/or arent highly likely to occur again. i've ben rescued once, do i give it another go, or would that be somehow improper or unethical of me?
what if i do go and end up being rescued a second time? do i then further attempt to learn by that in a way in which i can now go back for try #3 with a greater hope of avoiding a problem this time, or is it encumbent upon me to say i can not take the chane of a 3rd rescue?
if the risk of a 3rd rescue is acceptable, what about a 4th? a 5th? the line has to exist somewhere. surely no one could condone hiking the whole trail while regularly and predictably being rescued every 2 weeks..
where is the line?
this is the question i find interesting and am attempting to discuss.
what do you think? honestly. no virtue signaling, no railing against socialism and i havent even called anyone a snowflake or advocated in favor of crawling to safety. nor have i questioned the validity of anyone's medical condition.
gpburdelljr
07-23-2018, 12:52
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wdoGVgj1MtY
SteelCut
07-23-2018, 13:19
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wdoGVgj1MtY
All time classic.
Puddlefish
07-23-2018, 14:17
lets you and i seriously have an exchange of ideas related to the topic of this thread. honestly.
it will involve me giving you a hypothetical. this does not in anyway imply that i know that this was the case with the hiker in question and/or that i am judging for it even if it.
heres the hypothetical-
i have some sort of health problem. the specifics dont matter. this problem in day to day live does not generally cause me issues.
i have never gone backpacking before, but i know that there are things about backpacking that may cause a massive negative spike in my condition. lets say, for sake of argument, if it were unusually hot out and i, for whatever reason, ended up going without water for a certain length of time.
lets say if those conditions were met, i would become incapacitated in such a way as to require rescue. sitting and resting wont solve it. i need medical attention.
i go backpacking. its hot. 2 water sources are dry. bam, i need to be rescued.
after 2 days of rest and receiving medical treatment i'm fine.
do i go back out and hike more? i can tell myself, and it may even be true, that those exact conditions that caused me to be rescued can be avoided and/or arent highly likely to occur again. i've ben rescued once, do i give it another go, or would that be somehow improper or unethical of me?
what if i do go and end up being rescued a second time? do i then further attempt to learn by that in a way in which i can now go back for try #3 with a greater hope of avoiding a problem this time, or is it encumbent upon me to say i can not take the chane of a 3rd rescue?
if the risk of a 3rd rescue is acceptable, what about a 4th? a 5th? the line has to exist somewhere. surely no one could condone hiking the whole trail while regularly and predictably being rescued every 2 weeks..
where is the line?
this is the question i find interesting and am attempting to discuss.
what do you think? honestly. no virtue signaling, no railing against socialism and i havent even called anyone a snowflake or advocated in favor of crawling to safety. nor have i questioned the validity of anyone's medical condition.
I've largely answered your question already. My posted advice was to see a doctor before going out a third time. I'm not sure I agree with your initial set up, that she knew before attempting to hike there was a problem, but going on your scenario, that's my answer.
I'll share a story from my distant past. 30 years ago, when I was at the peak of my physical conditioning, I had a heart event at work. I thought I was dying, the ambulance was called, I got hauled out on a stretcher in front of some 2,000 fellow employees. My heartbeat returned to normal in the ambulance, and they found nothing wrong with me at the hospital. I returned to work the following day, to great rumor and conjecture. Two months later, I had another episode, and again I recovered before reaching the hospital. Returning to work, I faced specific mockery for fainting, for having a panic attack, for being unable to cope with the high stress of my job, it was suggested that I take a demotion to an easier position. Again, this is when I was actively pursuing my career and clawing my way up the corporate ladder. I ate stress for breakfast, and I was furious that all these clowns were trying to hold me back.
It took six months, before the Holter monitor I was equipped with, recorded another heart episode. I was diagnosed with Supraventricular Tachycardia. I have an extra electrical node in my heart. It very much randomly short circuits the normal electrical pattern and fires my heartbeat up to 200 beats per minutes, with resulting dizziness, shortness of breath, mild chest/shoulder pains. It won't kill me, but I have to immediately sit down/pull to the side of the road to prevent myself from passing out. I have a technique where I can reset my heart beat back to normal, but at times it takes a while. I immediately felt better, just having a diagnosis. It can happen twice in a day, twice in a year, or once every five years. There is no discernible trigger for an event.
When something happens to you medically the first time. You don't necessarily know what causes it, you don't know if it's properly diagnosed initially, you don't even know if it's a repeatable event. All the conjecture by non medical professionals without access to information about symptoms, medical records and medical testing are not only unhelpful, but potentially damaging in the wrong circumstances.
As for you personally, the only thing you posted in this thread that I took issue with was when you discussed her "attitude" as if it was her attitude that got her into trouble. I wasn't chiding you personally before that... if the shoe fits, wear it. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't imagine that I'm trying to force it onto your foot specifically. Yes, I actually largely agree with you.
You are as soft as the Snowflake hiker. Will people please toughen up and quit being so hypersensitive. My gosh is unbelievable!!!
What is with all the "Snowflake"talk?
Someone hikes until she physically can't go further is snowflake, while some fat dude chompin' cheetos at his keyboard in his mom's basement is ... what? Go back to watching your porn.
I'll share a story from my distant past.
Thanks for posting that.
Though off off topic at first reading, it really is not at all.
I've largely answered your question already. My posted advice was to see a doctor before going out a third time. I'm not sure I agree with your initial set up, that she knew before attempting to hike there was a problem, but going on your scenario, that's my answer.
I'll share a story from my distant past. 30 years ago, when I was at the peak of my physical conditioning, I had a heart event at work. I thought I was dying, the ambulance was called, I got hauled out on a stretcher in front of some 2,000 fellow employees. My heartbeat returned to normal in the ambulance, and they found nothing wrong with me at the hospital. I returned to work the following day, to great rumor and conjecture. Two months later, I had another episode, and again I recovered before reaching the hospital. Returning to work, I faced specific mockery for fainting, for having a panic attack, for being unable to cope with the high stress of my job, it was suggested that I take a demotion to an easier position. Again, this is when I was actively pursuing my career and clawing my way up the corporate ladder. I ate stress for breakfast, and I was furious that all these clowns were trying to hold me back.
It took six months, before the Holter monitor I was equipped with, recorded another heart episode. I was diagnosed with Supraventricular Tachycardia. I have an extra electrical node in my heart. It very much randomly short circuits the normal electrical pattern and fires my heartbeat up to 200 beats per minutes, with resulting dizziness, shortness of breath, mild chest/shoulder pains. It won't kill me, but I have to immediately sit down/pull to the side of the road to prevent myself from passing out. I have a technique where I can reset my heart beat back to normal, but at times it takes a while. I immediately felt better, just having a diagnosis. It can happen twice in a day, twice in a year, or once every five years. There is no discernible trigger for an event.
When something happens to you medically the first time. You don't necessarily know what causes it, you don't know if it's properly diagnosed initially, you don't even know if it's a repeatable event. All the conjecture by non medical professionals without access to information about symptoms, medical records and medical testing are not only unhelpful, but potentially damaging in the wrong circumstances.
As for you personally, the only thing you posted in this thread that I took issue with was when you discussed her "attitude" as if it was her attitude that got her into trouble. I wasn't chiding you personally before that... if the shoe fits, wear it. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't imagine that I'm trying to force it onto your foot specifically. Yes, I actually largely agree with you.
with much respect, i don't think you answered my question. "see a dr" is putting the decision off on someone else, but i think even more so, its putting the focus more on whether hiking again or not is in the best interest of the person doing the hiking and failing to address the question i am really trying to discuss- is it fair for this theoretical person to risk having to ask others to come to the rescue again, incurring cost doing so and, more importantly, potentially putting their own well being at risk?
while your personal story you shared is relevant in some ways, no one has to go backpacking to find out what works best for them, whats really wrong and how best to work through it. thats a key difference.
once all of that is figured out, then giving backpacking another go, sure, yes ok. but not before.
i have not and do not mean to in anyway conjecture about anyone's health. the conjecture on my part is "what is it ok to expect others to do on my behalf to insure my well being while i engage in a voluntary leisure activity?" and thats all i am conjecturing on.
Slo-go'en
07-23-2018, 15:02
found another article about her - in the dailymail.uk
I found this statement interesting "The nature of her illness remains unclear." And "at times she was forced to walk".
I tried to find an incident report but failed. Franklin county Search and rescue does have a blog with a write up about the lady from the UK who broke her leg in the Bigelow's a few days later.
In any event, having to be carried out of the woods twice in two weeks is a bad sign. Hopefully she's thought better of this and is resting at home.
Puddlefish
07-23-2018, 15:14
with much respect, i don't think you answered my question. "see a dr" is putting the decision off on someone else, but i think even more so, its putting the focus more on whether hiking again or not is in the best interest of the person doing the hiking and failing to address the question i am really trying to discuss- is it fair for this theoretical person to risk having to ask others to come to the rescue again, incurring cost doing so and, more importantly, potentially putting their own well being at risk?
while your personal story you shared is relevant in some ways, no one has to go backpacking to find out what works best for them, whats really wrong and how best to work through it. thats a key difference.
once all of that is figured out, then giving backpacking another go, sure, yes ok. but not before.
i have not and do not mean to in anyway conjecture about anyone's health. the conjecture on my part is "what is it ok to expect others to do on my behalf to insure my well being while i engage in a voluntary leisure activity?" and thats all i am conjecturing on.
To more specifically answer your question on your hypothetical scenario. That's not the kind of decision I'd involve myself in, for another person, who isn't me. I can tell you what I'd do in that situation. There's no right answer for everyone. I'm not the caretaker for who is and isn't worthy to be on the trail.
I'm a big states rights advocate in situations like this. The trail has been around long enough, that every community has already addressed what is considered an abuse of the system, and how they want to deal abuses of the system. If the SAR team and the whole system behind that team aren't making any noises of complaint, I'm not going to white knight for them.
To more specifically answer your question on your hypothetical scenario. That's not the kind of decision I'd involve myself in, for another person, who isn't me. I can tell you what I'd do in that situation. There's no right answer for everyone. I'm not the caretaker for who is and isn't worthy to be on the trail.
I'm a big states rights advocate in situations like this. The trail has been around long enough, that every community has already addressed what is considered an abuse of the system, and how they want to deal abuses of the system. If the SAR team and the whole system behind that team aren't making any noises of complaint, I'm not going to white knight for them.
so what would you do?
i'm going to guess, and i apologize if i'm putting words in your mouth.
you'd speak to your dr and if your dr said it wouldnt hurt you to go try again, you would go.
so, in other words, to state your final summation differently, what impact your actions may have on SAR are of no concern to you.
just want to be clear i am reading you correctly.
Last Call
07-23-2018, 15:57
It's nice to sit here, invisible, at the keyboard and judge our fellow humans for everything under the sun from size, color, religion and mistakes or weakness and then use that same invisible keyboard to hide our own! The girl made a mistake, wasn't ready to give up, made a second one big deal, didn't cost anyone here a dime! But made your day to feel good about yourself to judge another!
but isn't it our DUTY to judge?
Puddlefish
07-23-2018, 16:10
so what would you do?
i'm going to guess, and i apologize if i'm putting words in your mouth.
you'd speak to your dr and if your dr said it wouldnt hurt you to go try again, you would go.
so, in other words, to state your final summation differently, what impact your actions may have on SAR are of no concern to you.
just want to be clear i am reading you correctly.
Well, I'd know my own medical condition. I'd hike. I can die at home, or I can die doing something I enjoy. After taking all additional precautions possible, would I call search and rescue if something blew up? Yes. I already make these kind of decisions when I hike. However, I don't hike in the winter, where's there's a higher chance I'd get SAR personnel killed.
SAR doesn't hire children. They hire adults who know exactly what they've signed up for. I imagine they feel good about helping people, promoting tourism, ensuring safety, and all the things that they do. Doesn't mean I'm going to treat them like a disposable resource.
Every human makes the exact same risk assessment every day, and every human draws the line in a slightly different place. You can't stop living because there's a chance something bad will happen. As my health continues to fail, I'll just adjust my hiking routine, and hope I've adjusted it enough.
Well, I'd know my own medical condition. I'd hike. I can die at home, or I can die doing something I enjoy. After taking all additional precautions possible, would I call search and rescue if something blew up? Yes. I already make these kind of decisions when I hike. However, I don't hike in the winter, where's there's a higher chance I'd get SAR personnel killed.
SAR doesn't hire children. They hire adults who know exactly what they've signed up for. I imagine they feel good about helping people, promoting tourism, ensuring safety, and all the things that they do. Doesn't mean I'm going to treat them like a disposable resource.
Every human makes the exact same risk assessment every day, and every human draws the line in a slightly different place. You can't stop living because there's a chance something bad will happen. As my health continues to fail, I'll just adjust my hiking routine, and hope I've adjusted it enough.
i think we mostly agree.
but i still think there is a line where our expectations of others being there to help us goes too far. that said people dont complain about it speaks to the quality of their character, it doesnt mean the actions of everyone must be ok because they havent complained. i would imagine, like all jobs, on balance they feel good about what they do or they wouldnt do it. that doesnt mean it cant be better or that there are times when what is asked of them is beyond what they feel is reasonable.
so can i assume then that you, unlike some others,have no issues with the way NH handles SAR?
I cannot help but wonder what kind of aid fellow thru hikers rendered.
Probably too early for her to have formed a trail family, right?
Does that even matter?
Does it matter who called the authorities?
Whether it was the young woman, or someone who became aware of her condition?
Puddlefish
07-23-2018, 16:43
i think we mostly agree.
but i still think there is a line where our expectations of others being there to help us goes too far. that said people dont complain about it speaks to the quality of their character, it doesnt mean the actions of everyone must be ok because they havent complained. i would imagine, like all jobs, on balance they feel good about what they do or they wouldnt do it. that doesnt mean it cant be better or that there are times when what is asked of them is beyond what they feel is reasonable.
so can i assume then that you, unlike some others,have no issues with the way NH handles SAR?
NH SAR is a law enforcement arm of Fish and Game. They're funded by a $1 fee on outdoorsy licenses/permits, and by sale of the hikesafe cards (for those just determined to hike negligently?!, or for those who worry too much that they'll be unfairly deemed negligent I guess.) They do a crap load of education. They team up with a bunch of other organizations. At some point, if someone determines you were negligent, based on the well advertised hiker responsibility code (http://www.hikesafe.com/uploads/File/hrc.pdf), the state sends you a bill. Easy to understand, responsibilities and penalties spelled out clearly, lots of education. Yeah, I think it's a solid system.
NH SAR is a law enforcement arm of Fish and Game. They're funded by a $1 fee on outdoorsy licenses/permits, and by sale of the hikesafe cards (for those just determined to hike negligently?!, or for those who worry too much that they'll be unfairly deemed negligent I guess.) They do a crap load of education. They team up with a bunch of other organizations. At some point, if someone determine's you were negligent, based on the well advertised hiker responsibility code (http://www.hikesafe.com/uploads/File/hrc.pdf), the state sends you a bill. Easy to understand, responsibilities and penalties spelled out clearly, lots of education. Yeah, I think it's a solid system.
good, i think we're mostly in agreement
I cannot help but wonder what kind of aid fellow thru hikers rendered.
Probably too early for her to have formed a trail family, right?
Does that even matter?
Does it matter who called the authorities?
Whether it was the young woman, or someone who became aware of her condition?
it may, interesting questions.
Crushed Grapes
07-23-2018, 19:54
What is with all the "Snowflake"talk?
I think you know exactly what this dude means
I think you know exactly what this dude means
Thanks Buttercup but, I was really looking for him to explain for himself.
TexasBob
07-23-2018, 21:10
Well I learned something new from this thread while wading through the thoughtful posts as well as the BS, posturing and chest thumping by some posters. I never heard of virtue signally before. I had to look it up. I hope the hiker is OK. Oops, does that mean I just virtue signaled?
SwathHiker
07-23-2018, 21:27
Did you actually read the article? I did and she was evacuated for illness on both occasions. No mention was made of her denying responsibility - you read this into the article to support your outrage. As far as your self-professed superior outdoor self-rescue skills and general self-righteousness, at 51 years old you should have learned already that life has a way of putting us in circumstances that we would not have imagined. She's a 21 year old attempting a 2190 mile thru-hike and you're 51 and sitting inside anonymously pounding away baseless criticism on a keyboard - and she's the snowflake?
lol. 10 characters are required to respond, so: lolololol
Theres two kinds of people
Those that have their opinions, and respectfully allow others to have theirs too.
And then you have those that cannot stand if someone has a different opinion than they do. They argue, criticize, name-call, label, scream, cry, demonstrate, threaten to leave. In positions of authority, they will ban or remove counter viewpoints.
Muddy Waters: Thank you, for posting this insight. When I started this thread, I was surprised at what happened; however, I didn't mean for people to get caustic.
I REALLY LIKE what you said about how people respond (#1: Respectfully comment; #2: Respond overly critically, demeaning other commenters... This falls in line with my beliefs about politics and religion being like preferences for ice cream... we all like different flavors... (Umm... for those of you who dig nuts in your ice cream, I could say some choice words - but I won't. I respect your freedom to choose. I ask your respect for choices I make... regarding politics... religion... hiking... (as long as choices don't hurt others nor the environment!)
rocketsocks
07-24-2018, 05:09
I don’t need an ignore button to ignore a thread...it’s innate
greenmtnboy
07-26-2018, 18:28
Don't expect touchy feely "understanding" from the DM or it's keyboard warriors: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5983419/North-Carolina-woman-needs-rescuing-twice-two-weeks-Appalachian-trail.html
greenmtnboy
07-26-2018, 18:39
And you had this exchange:
DEarle (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/registration/1532380156228702/DEarle/profile.html), Tx, United States, 3 days ago
southerngirl71 - I grew up in the Rockies. Used to go hiking for miles, at least four to five hours no stop expect water/toilet breaks, with family during our outings and I was just a kid (left the area when 14). The Appalachian trail is not exactly back breaking unless you are severely unprepared. ... Btw, as you obviously don't know, there's a lot of entrance points along the Trail so she could have hiked a whooping 100 miles for all we know.
1
(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5983419/North-Carolina-woman-needs-rescuing-twice-two-weeks-Appalachian-trail.html#)
4
(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5983419/North-Carolina-woman-needs-rescuing-twice-two-weeks-Appalachian-trail.html#)Click to rate
(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/reportAbuseInComment.html?articleId=5983419&commentId=332169529)https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/user/1/3/5/4/9/02219069611_p.jpg?cb=2018726 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/registration/1354902219069611/southerngirl71/profile.html)
southerngirl71 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/registration/1354902219069611/southerngirl71/profile.html), charlotte nc, United States, 2 days ago
@DEarle I section hike the AT weekly, and I am a member of a corps that takes care of state trails. I am well familiar with the entrance points. You are wrong about there not being back breaking points, and the 100 mile wilderness is an area where you are advised to take 10 days of water supply. It has inclines and declines of 3500 feet and dangerous river and rock areas. So, thanks, but maybe speak about what you actually have experienced.
Water for 10 days, what kind of absurd over-preparedness is this? It took me 3 1/2 days to go through the 100 miles. It reminds me of other howlers I heard while a boy scout. If people are going to live in a soft, self-protective fragile bubble they have no business doing extended hikes.
And you had this exchange:
DEarle (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/registration/1532380156228702/DEarle/profile.html), Tx, United States, 3 days ago
southerngirl71 - I grew up in the Rockies. Used to go hiking for miles, at least four to five hours no stop expect water/toilet breaks, with family during our outings and I was just a kid (left the area when 14). The Appalachian trail is not exactly back breaking unless you are severely unprepared. ... Btw, as you obviously don't know, there's a lot of entrance points along the Trail so she could have hiked a whooping 100 miles for all we know.
1
(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5983419/North-Carolina-woman-needs-rescuing-twice-two-weeks-Appalachian-trail.html#)
4
(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5983419/North-Carolina-woman-needs-rescuing-twice-two-weeks-Appalachian-trail.html#)Click to rate
(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/reportAbuseInComment.html?articleId=5983419&commentId=332169529)https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/user/1/3/5/4/9/02219069611_p.jpg?cb=2018726 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/registration/1354902219069611/southerngirl71/profile.html)
southerngirl71 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/registration/1354902219069611/southerngirl71/profile.html), charlotte nc, United States, 2 days ago
@DEarle I section hike the AT weekly, and I am a member of a corps that takes care of state trails. I am well familiar with the entrance points. You are wrong about there not being back breaking points, and the 100 mile wilderness is an area where you are advised to take 10 days of water supply. It has inclines and declines of 3500 feet and dangerous river and rock areas. So, thanks, but maybe speak about what you actually have experienced.
Water for 10 days, what kind of absurd over-preparedness is this? It took me 3 1/2 days to go through the 100 miles. It reminds me of other howlers I heard while a boy scout. If people are going to live in a soft, self-protective fragile bubble they have no business doing extended hikes.
wow, you cant make this up. "i used to hike for 4 or 5 hours at a time in the rockies, the AT is nothing"
vs
"you need to carry 10 days of water in the 100 mile wilderness"
and some of you think THIS website is full of nonsense.
Don't expect touchy feely "understanding" from the DM or it's keyboard warriors: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5983419/North-Carolina-woman-needs-rescuing-twice-two-weeks-Appalachian-trail.html
I read the article twice. A bit disjointed on the facts and difficult to tell exactly where she was hiking, but overall the story was factual without editorial comment. Better than what I see on some USA TV news.
Wayne
What I've learned from a few years on the trail is a general spirit of collaboration and non-judgmentalism. It is quite difficult to be truly non-judgmental for all of us, and the challenge is increased in on-line activities. None of us wants to pay the bill for truly careless people who repetitively require 'bail outs', and particularly if this is common. However, what seems interesting about this story is that it really isn't that common, or it wouldn't be news. The trail attracts a spectrum everything from the super athletes who set records, to everyone else. Please note that I am not excusing the thoughtless few who clean their cookware in the marginal water source, or those that leave trash in trail boxes, [fill in other WB threads], that is (perhaps) unforgivable....
Typical Snowflake. It wasn't her fault. It was that big, bad mountains fault.
A lot of assumptions made with this reply! Supportive communities help to form strong individuals, friend. I hope this gal has a great life and learned a lot from her experience!
Slo-go'en
07-30-2018, 14:52
Water for 10 days, what kind of absurd over-preparedness is this? It took me 3 1/2 days to go through the 100 miles. It reminds me of other howlers I heard while a boy scout. If people are going to live in a soft, self-protective fragile bubble they have no business doing extended hikes.
No doubt he/she ment 10 days of food. We all know there is plenty of water in the HMW. 3.5 days to do the HMW? Good for you Greenmntboy, but not many others can or are willing to do it at breakneck speed. Granted, 10 days is dragging your feet, but 6-7 days is a bit more reasonable for mere mortals.
BlackCloud
07-31-2018, 09:04
It's nice to sit here, invisible, at the keyboard and judge our fellow humans for everything under the sun from size, color, religion and mistakes or weakness and then use that same invisible keyboard to hide our own! The girl made a mistake, wasn't ready to give up, made a second one big deal, didn't cost anyone here a dime! But made your day to feel good about yourself to judge another!
Far more important than money is the physical danger in which rescuers may place themselves to effect a timely rescue of an "adventurer" calling for help. A collateral cost is the unavailability of rescuers to respond to other emergencies during the time they are so engaged.
BlackCloud
07-31-2018, 09:05
What is with all the "Snowflake"talk?
Someone hikes until she physically can't go further is snowflake, while some fat dude chompin' cheetos at his keyboard in his mom's basement is ... what? Go back to watching your porn.
Does this mean it's already started to snow in ME?
Teacher & Snacktime
07-31-2018, 15:43
So much judgmental keyboard diagnosis.
Reminds me of what my mother used to say: "There but for the grace of God go I."
Reminds me of what my mother used to say: "There but for the grace of God go I."
oh i assure you, theres more between me and having to be rescued twice within 2 weeks for seemingly the same problem than the grace of god.
and thats probably true for most of us.
in the unfortunate event that i ever need to be rescued once it will be the catalyst if a very long reconsideration of what i'm doing on many levels that by definition would take longer than 2 weeks. i wouldnt even be back out hiking, let alone needing to be rescued again already
and again, id like to think thats the case for most of us.
BlackCloud
08-02-2018, 09:43
oh i assure you, theres more between me and having to be rescued twice within 2 weeks for seemingly the same problem than the grace of god.
and thats probably true for most of us.
in the unfortunate event that i ever need to be rescued once it will be the catalyst if a very long reconsideration of what i'm doing on many levels that by definition would take longer than 2 weeks. i wouldnt even be back out hiking, let alone needing to be rescued again already
and again, id like to think thats the case for most of us.
It is. That's why the Boys Scout motto is BE PREPARED.
Teacher & Snacktime
08-02-2018, 16:09
oh i assure you, theres more between me and having to be rescued twice within 2 weeks for seemingly the same problem than the grace of god.
and thats probably true for most of us.
in the unfortunate event that i ever need to be rescued once it will be the catalyst if a very long reconsideration of what i'm doing on many levels that by definition would take longer than 2 weeks. i wouldnt even be back out hiking, let alone needing to be rescued again already
and again, id like to think thats the case for most of us.
Perhaps, and it's pretty to think so, but it's an unfortunate fact that every expedition on which Snacktime and I set forth, a rescue was required. On the first, I fell and twisted my ankle and knee badly, on the second Snacktime melted-down, then there was our infamous winter hike....well the less said about that the better! None of these involved ambulances or special transports or folks hiking in to extract us, but we were "rescued" nonetheless. And essentially it was for the same problem(s), ie inexperience and underestimation of the challenges we were up against. Was I embarrassed? Absolutely. Did I stop? No...no chance of that. Instead, we learned from our weaknesses and did our best to push on with our hiking dreams.
My point is this: you can't control everything that happens; you can only try to do your best. If you fall, and someone else has to pick you up, that's not a reason to not try again. There's no shame in failing, even if it's more than once. There's no shame in needing help when you fail, even if it's more than once. The only real shame would be to let the insensitive criticism of others keep one from trying again for fear of their opinion of that failure.
My point is this: you can't control everything that happens; you can only try to do your best.
there is one thing i have absolute, unequivocal control over- my choice to be out in the woods on a hiking trip.
if i were rescued on a trip (as in professional rescue by SAR) i would not be out in the woods again 2 weeks later. is that not under my control? i dont think youre trying to argue that it would be beyond my control, as thats nuts, but that was my only point and you seem to be disagreeing with it.
maybe, MAYBE after rescue #1 a year or two later rescue #2 might happen. sure. and that could be a "grace of god" thing.
i will never be rescued from a hiking trip twice in the span of 2 weeks. i will wager whatever stakes you are willing to match. whether i am or not is 1000000000% percent absolutely and fully under my control. there is no "you never know."
imscotty
08-02-2018, 22:37
My goodness, are people still beating this dead horse?
Maybe this was being irresponsible, or maybe it was just a series of bad breaks. The point is, we don't know. We don't have enough information and Whiteblaze does not have a good history of playing Internet Detective. Lets assume the best and let this woman rest.
SoaknWet
08-03-2018, 07:31
I could not agree more!
MuddyWaters
08-03-2018, 18:44
People got right to beat dead horses if they want.
Because you dont agree, doesnt mean they cant.
Theres an ignore function .
imscotty
08-03-2018, 20:40
People got right to beat dead horses if they want.
Because you dont agree, doesnt mean they cant.
Theres an ignore function .
Of course you are correct Muddy, sorry for my interjection. As my punishment I will be sure to read every future post on this thread.
Flagellate away
greenmtnboy
08-05-2018, 12:16
No doubt he/she ment 10 days of food. We all know there is plenty of water in the HMW. 3.5 days to do the HMW? Good for you Greenmntboy, but not many others can or are willing to do it at breakneck speed. Granted, 10 days is dragging your feet, but 6-7 days is a bit more reasonable for mere mortals.
I got a ride to Long Pond stream by someone at Mr. Shaw's place in Monson, hiked back in the afternoon, next day ride out there again, so it was easier to do the 100 miles; the bugs drive you on in the lowlands.
Okay, it's been another 2 weeks. Any word of another incident? Or has this horse gone home to the barn?