View Full Version : GSMNP - Was Asked to Show a Permit
HooKooDooKu
09-04-2018, 00:11
Labor Day weekend, I made a loop out of the AT, Jonas Creek, Forney Creek, Noland Creek, and Noland Ridge.
Along the Forney Creek section, about 5 miles from the nearest trail head, ran into a pair of park rangers and was asked to show my camping permit. That's the 1st time in over twenty years of hiking GSMNP that a ranger in the back country has asked me to show a permit. Don't know if this was just a Labor Day Weekend thing, or will we see more rangers in the back country (I hope we'll be seeing more rangers).
The bad news is that all the bad behavior I saw this weekend was at the tunnel at the end of the "Road to Nowhere" where the ranger's SUV was parked...
Saw at least three groups hiking the trails in the area with a dog (at least they were all on a leash). But then, a motorcyclist crossed the barrier and "hot dogged" between the barriers and the tunnel (then continued thru the tunnel). In the process of "hot dogging" at cooler on the back of the cycle flips open spilling Gatoraid and water bottles as well as a glass bottle.:mad:
soumodeler
09-04-2018, 08:03
I have been asked if I have a permit maybe 3 times, but never asked to actually produce it.
Unfortunately, it seems like I see more and more people who just don't care about rules of any type. It is all about them, not what anybody else says. I have absolutely no problem with seeing more rangers to hopefully enforce the rules a little more. I avoid popular destinations like GSMNP on holiday weekends, partially to avoid crap like this, and just too many people for my tastes.
illabelle
09-04-2018, 09:04
We hiked a loop several weeks ago that overlapped yours (Forney Ridge + Springhouse Branch + Forney Creek). We had to navigate over/around a couple of big blowdowns, one of them requiring a difficult off-trail climb up a steep hill to get past it. I remember wondering how long it had been since that area had been maintained, wondering what, if any, Park resources are spent on trail maintenance, wondering what tools we should personally carry on our next trip, etc.
We spent the night previous to the trip at Smokemont. Going over Newfound Gap, we saw that they were repaving everything, including pull-offs for overlooks and trailheads. It's not for me to say whether the road needed a new coat of asphalt, but I sure was wishing some of that money could have been re-directed towards backcountry maintenance and ranger presence.
The rule-breakers won't be deterred without imposing consequences. A sign doesn't have the impact a ranger does. Ironically the dog-rule-breakers probably were upset about the cyclist-rule-breaker. How dare he drive a motorcycle on the trail! That's illegal!
Might be fun if some of us were to get a look-alike ranger uniform to hike in. Maybe we could then confront and educate people without getting told off.
HooKooDooKu
09-04-2018, 09:08
I avoid popular destinations like GSMNP on holiday weekends, partially to avoid crap like this, and just too many people for my tastes.
At least in the back country, I saw a lot fewer people that I expected to. Camp sites were no where close to full (even if the reservation said they nearly were).
If you exclude the day hikers around trail heads and cars along our two short road walks, we encountered about a dozen people at back country campsites and another dozen along our 32 mile loop.
Starchild
09-04-2018, 09:31
As a Ridgerunner 4 years ago I have asked countless times for the camping permits. Though I have no power to command it (though I could radio a 'problem' to central dispatch which is like 911), most were glad to show it to me, a few did question me about my authority to do so, but always gave in.
By far the largest 'problem' in terms of the management philosophy are those tenting/hanging when they need to stay in shelters and the expanded camping area they create in the process, followed far behind by 'stealthers' (camping not at/around camping sites). This had little correlation to carrying permits as I saw it.
It terms of permits themselves, the largest issue would be what was termed 'off sequence hikers', hikers with permits but at (or heading to) a different shelter/camping spot then the one indicated. Usually, as I was trained,I would give a LNT speech about plan ahead and prepare plus the importance of the reservation system, then radio the back country office to see if it would be possible to change their reservation to correct for them being off sequence and plan out a route that would work. After that would be people incorrectly using thru hiker permits (as they didn't qualify). Some admitted it, some said they could not reserve the sites they wanted so did this instead - again a talk and a radio to back country office to correct if and how possible. There were a few I suspected of this as well, though they held to their story.
Finally are those without permits at all, which was actually a small number. I could issues them permits on the spot (again radioing to BCO) and they would get mailed the bill (if they gave the correct address), Rangers finding this could also fine them and may have them hike out instead of field permitting them. It appears that those not getting any permits were the ones at risk of fines, and some have seemed to take advantage of this getting a permit but without any plans of hiking those shelters/campsites they reserved.
FreeGoldRush
09-04-2018, 09:42
On a busy holiday weekend it's a safe bet that people bring their dogs without realizing the gsmnp rule against dogs. Yes, I have seen the no-dog signs at the trail heads but I sure didn't notice it on my first visit, and the casual visitor probably does not either. To be clear, I do understand this particular rule and support it.
The guy on the motorcycle was clearly in the wrong place and would have known better, sign or not.
Was out there all weekend as well along the AT. Busier near trailheads of course, but everyone I met was kind and well behaved and appreciative of the experience. I was asked for my permit by a RR. The Smokies sure are a special place.
Two questions:
- is there no "GSMNP" boundary sign at the North end at Davenport Gap, similar to the one on the South end at Fontana?
- are horses allowed on the AT in the Smokies? Lots of horse crap from Cosby to Davenport. I always thought horses weren't allowed.
DuneElliot
09-04-2018, 09:56
On one of my most recent hikes in Wyoming I came across ATV tires tracks a half mile or more inside the wilderness boundary. The thought of it pretty much ruined that day for me. It wasn't like the wilderness boundary was close to the road...they had to drive a mile up a non-motorized footpath to get there and destroyed some delicate marsh habitat in the process. People are just....HORRIBLE sometimes.
- are horses allowed on the AT in the Smokies? Lots of horse crap from Cosby to Davenport. I always thought horses weren't allowed.
yes..............certain stretches of the AT in the Park are open to horses and pack animals........
the dollar map shows the parts they are allowed on...
HooKooDooKu
09-04-2018, 10:24
Two questions:
- is there no "GSMNP" boundary sign at the North end at Davenport Gap, similar to the one on the South end at Fontana?
- are horses allowed on the AT in the Smokies? Lots of horse crap from Cosby to Davenport. I always thought horses weren't allowed.
It's been a few years since I was at Davenport Gap, but I don't recall a "boundary" sign (I think there was only a trail head sign).
As for horses in GSMNP, you have to look at the back country trail map to see what trail segments horses are and are not allowed.
As far as the AT in GSMNP, it looks like horses are allowed between Shuckstack to Spence Field, Pecks Corner to Davenport Gap, and a segment near Silers Bald.
(Shuckstack to Spence Field and Pecks to Davenport Gap make up the bulk of where hor
Starchild
09-04-2018, 10:25
...Two questions:
- is there no "GSMNP" boundary sign at the North end at Davenport Gap, similar to the one on the South end at Fontana?
- are horses allowed on the AT in the Smokies? Lots of horse crap from Cosby to Davenport. I always thought horses weren't allowed.
Not sure about your first question, however Fontana Dam is 1- very touristy, while Davenport is really just for hikers, better to let them know about it before venturing in 2 there is a thru hiker permit drop off box at Davenport (and Fontana), so there is some sign of it.
About horses, as I understand it it is because of historical reasons, horses were still used for transport at the time the part was formed and the park divided communities. Horses were allowed so these communities could continue to use them to transit between the communities. Today horse clubs work well with the park, using their horses to haul up supplies that is needed for trail, campsite, shelter and privi maintenance. A single horse can take up a lot of wood shavings at a time, and that can be a couple thousand feet in elevation. They are good partners of the park and many hikers do benefit from them.
- is there no "GSMNP" boundary sign at the North end at Davenport Gap, similar to the one on the South end at Fontana?
i dont know which boundary type of sign you are referring to------maybe the large brown ones that sit off of a road??
but, there are boundary signs nailed to the trees (unless torn down) that generally go around the whole boundary of the Park...
they are maybe 2 inches across by 8 inches long, and made of plastic...
i have seen these signs tacked to trees in basically every part of the park at the boundary...
They are good partners of the park and many hikers do benefit from them.
(talking about horseback riders)
the horse groups are typically the most active groups in trail maintenance and other volunteer projects....
Last year on day 7 (Sunday) of my hike on the BMT I came to the tunnel. At that point I had only seen a total of about a dozen people on the trail. I did a double take when I passed a couple with a dog then I came around the corner and hit the tunnel. There were perhaps 30 noisy people walking thru the tunnel. Talk about culture shock. I realized that the couple with the dog were not hikers but people who drove to the end of the road to nowhere, parked, and walked thru the tunnel. I imagine most people probably don't even realize they are in the backcountry let alone walking on a trail.
HooKooDooKu
09-04-2018, 12:51
I realized that the couple with the dog were not hikers but people who drove to the end of the road to nowhere, parked, and walked thru the tunnel. I imagine most people probably don't even realize they are in the backcountry let alone walking on a trail.
I must say that I don't know if dogs are or are not allowed thru the tunnel. It's a paved road from the barricades thru the tunnel and on for anther 100 yards. I looked as we passed the barricades, and there was not a sign saying dogs are not permitted on the "road" (all other "roads" in the park are not considered back country and dogs are allowed along them).
But the trail heads for beyond the tunnel (Lakeshore, Goldmine Loop, Tunnel Bypass) had the proper "no dogs" signs in place. When I say I saw three groups with dogs, I mean on these trails, NOT the road thru the tunnel.
At this point, I've been to the tunnel three times, and every time I've seen one or more groups with a dog along one of these back country trails.
illabelle
09-04-2018, 13:29
Last year on day 7 (Sunday) of my hike on the BMT I came to the tunnel. At that point I had only seen a total of about a dozen people on the trail. I did a double take when I passed a couple with a dog then I came around the corner and hit the tunnel. There were perhaps 30 noisy people walking thru the tunnel. Talk about culture shock. I realized that the couple with the dog were not hikers but people who drove to the end of the road to nowhere, parked, and walked thru the tunnel. I imagine most people probably don't even realize they are in the backcountry let alone walking on a trail.
We took three friends to the tunnel on a dayhike a few weeks ago. I admit that we were noisy. :o The tunnel has great acoustics. Kinda fun to sing or scream or yodel in there. :)
full conditions
09-04-2018, 14:05
We took three friends to the tunnel on a dayhike a few weeks ago. I admit that we were noisy. :o The tunnel has great acoustics. Kinda fun to sing or scream or yodel in there. :)
I live about nine miles from the tunnel and hike there at least once a week and, while it is a pretty cool experience to walk thru it w/o benefit of a headlamp, it is worth noting that the local high school kids (go Maroon Devils) use it a party spot and have been known to throw empty beer bottles into the tunnel for the same excellent acoustic effects. Ergo, watch where you step.
HooKooDooKu
09-04-2018, 14:26
Ergo, watch where you step.
Yea, I noticed other people either using flashlight (or their phone) and recommending the same to others they saw approaching the tunnel.
I've so far only hiked the tunnel as a part of a back packing trip where I was wearing boot and didn't need to give it a second thought. (But the graffiti on the walls makes it obvious it's something of a party spot at times).
I must say that I don't know if dogs are or are not allowed thru the tunnel. It's a paved road from the barricades thru the tunnel and on for anther 100 yards
i would say that dogs are not allowed on the road inside the tunnel....
to me-----the trail starts at the sign right by the gate..........by the parking lot...........
HooKooDooKu
09-04-2018, 15:00
i would say that dogs are not allowed on the road inside the tunnel....
to me-----the trail starts at the sign right by the gate..........by the parking lot...........
I don't disagree with you (technically, I think you are right).
But from the point of view of a dog owner "caught" with a dog in the tunnel, the argument could be made that that there is no sign at the gate saying "no dogs", that dogs are allowed on park roads, and that the path beyond the gate sure looks a lot like a "road". And if you really know your back country signs, the trail intersection sign for either the Goldmine Loop or the Tunnel Bypass indicates a distance to "Lake View Drive", and I noticed this weekend that distance is based on where the dirt trail ends and the paved road beyond the tunnel begins (but then how would someone with a dog that shouldn't be in the back country know that).
Analog_Kidd
09-04-2018, 18:37
A couple years ago I wanted to take my grandson backpacking to Ice water Springs. I made reservations, and then the weather turned really bad, so I postponed for a few days. The new day, IWS was full, so we opted for Kephart. I called the park office and got the reservation changed, no problem.
We went on the hike, stayed in Kephart with a couple of nice college kids. In the am while eating breakfast, a ranger came up, asked if I stayed the night, and asked for my permit. I produced it, only to discover the office did not change my destination, only the date. She was not happy about this at all, and made several calls on the radio, and finally gave up saying, "at least you got a permit". I really thought I was in trouble for a minute.
Not sure why she was so worked up, I had A permit, didn't displace anyone, and it was the day after the reservation.
I also don't understand how the office computer allowed him to reschedule me back to IWS, since it was booked solid for that night. Had we gone there, there would be 14 people in a 12 person shelter, all with valid permits.
You sure it was a Ranger or was it a Ridge Runner? The fact that she got really worked up but didn't do anything about it sounds more like a RR. You tried to do the right thing, so no skin off your a$$.
I've been asked for my permit a couple of times but the one time that surprised me was when I was sleeping at 10 am in leconte shelter after doing a night hike up to watch the sunrise...
i should have hung the permit on the entrance so he didn't wake me up...
he then came by two other times to check my permit again.....
You sure it was a Ranger or was it a Ridge Runner? The fact that she got really worked up but didn't do anything about it sounds more like a RR. You tried to do the right thing, so no skin off your a$$.
It shouldnt be a ridgerrunner down at kephart...
they only do the AT (hence the ridge part)...
Starchild
09-04-2018, 21:28
It shouldnt be a ridgerrunner down at kephart...
they only do the AT (hence the ridge part)...
Though rare it is possible, and they use trails to access the AT, and on the job when traversing to the AT. But Ridgerunning is AT (In the East US). Also some are, um lets just say, very dedicated, and vocal, to views of how things should be.
FreeGoldRush
09-04-2018, 22:59
Not sure why she was so worked up, I had A permit, didn't displace anyone, and it was the day after the reservation.
Sadly, it is common for many people to turn "the rules" into their belief system. After all, that doesn't take as much working as thinking. It's comical that you slept on a wooden platform, without disrupting anyone else, and with assurances that you had a proper permit, yet a park official feels there is some action that needs to be taken with you.
Most of the GSMNP rules seem reasonable (although I struggle with that rule about not being able to lay on the ground), but I do genuinely wonder what the goal is that led to the creation of the backcountry rules. Is it to protect the experience of the backcountry hiker?
but I do genuinely wonder what the goal is that led to the creation of the backcountry rules. Is it to protect the experience of the backcountry hiker?
why yes---the rules are there to protect the backcountry experience....
and it's based on prior backpackers experiences and things they have F-ed up....
for example---since some groups decided to bring up to 20 of their friends to a backcountry site--there needed to be a rule that set a limited on how many can camp there...
and of course---the more rules that people break, means the more rules the Park has to lay down ...
and we found that out with the new backcountry permit system took place....
people were breaking the rules, and ruining the backcountry experience for others, which led to more rules....
Analog_Kidd
09-05-2018, 05:08
You sure it was a Ranger or was it a Ridge Runner? The fact that she got really worked up but didn't do anything about it sounds more like a RR. You tried to do the right thing, so no skin off your a$$.
Yeah, I'm sure. She was wearing the badge and uniform, and carrying a pistol, if memory serves correctly. After she was done with me, she stomped all around the campsite, kicking leaves and rolling logs over, and was poking in the fire pit, like she was looking for a stash of drugs, then took off down the trail. It was a strange encounter, for sure.
rmitchell
09-05-2018, 11:05
why yes---the rules are there to protect the backcountry experience....
and it's based on prior backpackers experiences and things they have F-ed up....
for example---since some groups decided to bring up to 20 of their friends to a backcountry site--there needed to be a rule that set a limited on how many can camp there...
and of course---the more rules that people break, means the more rules the Park has to lay down ...
and we found that out with the new backcountry permit system took place....
people were breaking the rules, and ruining the backcountry experience for others, which led to more rules....
If I remember correctly, the permit system was started after a Labor Day when there were about 200 people camped in and around the shelter at Mt. Le Conte.
With no restrictions the easily accessed areas could begin to look like Woodstock.
If I remember correctly, the permit system was started after a Labor Day when there were about 200 people camped in and around the shelter at Mt. Le Conte.
With no restrictions the easily accessed areas could begin to look like Woodstock.
it was more than just that one incident (which this is the first ive heard about it).....
there have been numerous times campsites have been filled with 30 to 50 people each night.....
i know there were a couple of times where (and i hate to admit it) that i was part of a group that had over 20 people at a site....
and with that----comes food storage issues and bathroom issues......
and fwiw----the Park started talking about a new reservation system back in the late 90's.......
i went to a meeting in the early part of 2000 where it was the only topic discussed and the Park was trying to figure out what to do....
cneill13
09-05-2018, 11:24
Although it initially pi$#ed me off with all the rules, I am now all for the permit system in GSMNP.
It is user-friendly in booking reservations on-line (at least I can figure it out) and keeps crowds well dispersed. I have only spent 6 nights in the GSMNP but have never had a permit checked nor even seen a ranger in the backcountry. Everyone I have camped with seems to be obeying the rules, booking the sites, and camping where required with permit.
People forget the GSMNP is the most visited national park in the U.S.
I think the permit system is working extremely well as far as I can see.
rmitchell
09-05-2018, 11:36
I recall having been asked to show a backcounty permit three times, all on the AT.
First time was in April of 1976 when doing the Smokies section southbound. Then you had to pick up the permit in person at a ranger station. Then we didn't know anything about bubbles and was surprised to meet 100 other hikers in a week.
In August 1998 I did the southern half of the park northbound. First night I was completely alone at Mollies. Second night there were 3 or 4 people at Derick Knob. Double Springs was more popular.
A couple of guys with no gear showed up. One other hiker told me he got a bad vibe from the one wearing a leather jacket. A few more hikers arrived then a ranger.
When the ranger began to check permits, one couple was up front an said they did not have permits. The leather jacket guy said they decided they wanted to go into Gatlinburg to get a steak and the couple could have their permit. Ranger got on radio and arranged permits for the couple. Leather jacket guy disappeared, seems that they had no permit after all.
HooKooDooKu
09-05-2018, 11:38
Although it initially pi$#ed me off with all the rules, I am now all for the permit system in GSMNP.
It is user-friendly in booking reservations on-line (at least I can figure it out) and keeps crowds well dispersed. I have only spent 6 nights in the GSMNP but have never had a permit checked nor even seen a ranger in the backcountry. Everyone I have camped with seems to be obeying the rules, booking the sites, and camping where required with permit.
People forget the GSMNP is the most visited national park in the U.S.
I think the permit system is working extremely well as far as I can see.
While the COST of the online booking system still pi$@es me off (I just paid $12 for a permit for me and two kids to camp in the back country for one night where the only amenity I've been given is a bear cable)...
* I must say that I LOVE the online system compared to the old system of trying to make reservations by phone.
* Rangers are seldom seen in the back country (hence the situation that started this post).
* While not the majority of times... I have frequently shared a back country camp site with people flagrantly disobeying rules
- (bringing pet, camping without a permit, camping where they should not, feeding wild life, etc).
- (this is why I'd like to see more rangers in the back country... at least the ridge runners I've been encountering in recent years is a start)
HooKooDooKu
09-05-2018, 11:42
I recall having been asked to show a backcounty permit three times, all on the AT.
First time was in April of 1976 when doing the Smokies section southbound.
I have an older brother who started hiking in GSMNP in the 70's. He's told me stories of hiking back then when he would be miles into the back country, encounter a ranger, and the ranger would start the conversation with "are you the ____ party?".
I have an older brother who started hiking in GSMNP in the 70's. He's told me stories of hiking back then when he would be miles into the back country, encounter a ranger, and the ranger would start the conversation with "are you the ____ party?".
that should have been (and i was not down in this area at the time, just heard it from one of the now retired Park PIOs)-----that they would have a place where rangers had to check one's gear out and make sure it was adequate for the backcountry and what not...
the ranger told me the nickname of the building it was at was the "sugar shack"-----as it was next to sugarlands visitors center...
so, guessing they had a more hands on approach and would know who was out in the backcountry..
and im guessing the crowds back then were not like they are today...
The first time I hike in GSMNP was in 1977 doing a section hike from Springer to Elk Park. As mentioned earlier at that time you had to get your reservations in person. I remember hanging around Fontana Village waiting for the ranger to return to get a permit. He told us where we would be staying. The night we were at Ice Water Springs a ranger came by around dinner time checking permits. Five people there did not have the proper permits. He told the two teens to get hiking and head to their proper campsite. The other three he said it was too late for them to get where they were supposed to be so they could stay. After the ranger left the teens were talking tough and didn't leave. About 9 that night a group of 7 people showed up looking for their spots in the shelter. Needless to say the 5 people who were not supposed to be there didn't say a word.
LittleRock
09-05-2018, 12:33
I've only been backpacking in GSMNP 4 times, but the impression I got was it's a haven for novice backpackers, especially the AT. The Smokies are one of the most well-known "wilderness" areas in the eastern US, so it's no surprise lots of people go on their first overnight trips there.
Novice backpackers tend to cause more issues than more experienced ones. They're often under (or over) prepared, don't know how to store food or dispose of waste properly, etc. They need some level of oversight to make sure things don't get out of hand.
So as much as I don't like all the rules, I understand why they're needed.
LittleRock
09-05-2018, 12:43
FWIW, I learned that starting this year the ATC hired 2 ridge runners in Shenandoah. Stayed at a shelter with one of them one night, nice guy. He said their instructions were to hike hut to hut through the park during peak thru-hiker season. He never asked anyone for a permit.
illabelle
09-05-2018, 12:45
* Rangers are seldom seen in the back country (hence the situation that started this post).
* While not the majority of times... I have frequently shared a back country camp site with people flagrantly disobeying rules
- (bringing pet, camping without a permit, camping where they should not, feeding wild life, etc).
- (this is why I'd like to see more rangers in the back country... at least the ridge runners I've been encountering in recent years is a start)
Help me with this list (make corrections/additions):
Park Ranger - NPS employee empowered to enforce regulations
Ridge Runner - NPS volunteer/employee (?) tasked with educating and encouraging compliance
Trail Steward (proposed) - NPS trained/experienced volunteer maintainer given permission to stealth camp as needed to facilitate their work (people like Tipi). Would have Ridge Runner authority.
Sergeant Hiker (proposed) - NPS trained/experienced hiker given limited authority (and a badge) to educate and encourage compliance (people like Hookoo)
Between the Park Ranger and the Clueless Moron is a host of concerned people - including most of us - who could help to discourage the ignorant and/or intentional rule-breakers. Why don't we? Why don't I? Because I don't have the authority. Because I don't want to get beat up. Because the clueless morons might be my friends/neighbors. Because I just want to enjoy my own hike. Even something as simple as correcting people who cut across switchbacks isn't done, because I don't want to be "that person" correcting a grown man in front of his kids, or correcting kids in front of their parents.
We'll never have 100% compliance unless we fence the Park and have armed attendants accompany each party. There will always be people who feel that they have a God-given right to do what they want on public lands, or who haven't been introduced to backcountry ethics. The NPS' role is limited by funding and personnel. The bad behavior is permitted, because we permit it by saying nothing. How can we harness peer pressure to discourage the bad behavior?
Starchild
09-05-2018, 13:31
Help me with this list (make corrections/additions):
...Ridge Runner - NPS volunteer/employee (?) tasked with educating and encouraging compliance
....
Can be either paid or volunteer along the AT. I believe there are only paid ones in the Smokies. On trail usually Thursday to Monday, off Tuesday and Wed, but this may vary especially when there are more then one. They also do minor trail maintenance - reporting major ones for trail crews, maintain shelterers, campsites, privi's and 'waste disposal areas' - so basically the janitors of the AT.
Also another ATC position is 'Caretaker', which someone who stays at a single campsite/shelter instead of traveling from site to site.
Novice backpackers tend to cause more issues than more experienced ones. They're often under (or over) prepared, don't know how to store food or dispose of waste properly, etc. They need some level of oversight to make sure things don't get out of hand.
that is true to a certain degree-------but ive seen the same problems with people who have hiked and backpacked in the Park all their life.........
rmitchell
09-05-2018, 21:35
that should have been (and i was not down in this area at the time, just heard it from one of the now retired Park PIOs)-----that they would have a place where rangers had to check one's gear out and make sure it was adequate for the backcountry and what not...
the ranger told me the nickname of the building it was at was the "sugar shack"-----as it was next to sugarlands visitors center...
so, guessing they had a more hands on approach and would know who was out in the backcountry..
and im guessing the crowds back then were not like they are today...
I think the equipment inspection was only during the winter (December-March?). The required items included a sleeping bag rated to -20 and a six inch knife. Not sure what else but those stick in my mind.
Pringles
09-05-2018, 21:48
The first and second backpacking trips I ever took were in the Smokys, and on the second, a ranger on a horse asked to see my permit. I had it attached to my pack, and as he dismounted, I turned so he could see it. I ended up very close, and eye to eye with a grey horse. I had NO IDEA they were that big (the horse, not the ranger). In the last 25 years, I don’t remember being asked about a permit. At Pictured Rocks, I remember a time where one ranger came striding into camp while a minute or two later, another ranger came out of some bushes. We had a discussion and he said we might have been doing something illegal. I pointed out that one of us might have been peeing behind a tree, too. I believe the discussion ended as a draw. Recently I’ve done hiking in Yellowstone. I don’t remember any rangers asking to see a permit, but I’ve seen a good number of rangers IN the backcountry. I recently did a six day trip in the Bechler, and during those six days, saw 5 rangers. None asked about permits, but one looked pretty young, and was carrying a shovel, and wearing not one, but two firearms. He announced himself from outside of camp, so as to not startle us. (Pictured Rocks, are you listening?) He was there to “clean out the fire pit.” We told him fires weren’t allowed at that campsite, so there was no fire pit (Bless his heart.). He looked a little befuddled, but recovered. He then said he was going to go check the pit toilet, and off he strode with his shovel over his shoulder... .
Wow, I wrote lots more than usual. Sorry. I guess I got on a roll.
FreeGoldRush
09-05-2018, 23:08
The required items included a sleeping bag rated to -20 and a six inch knife.
Please elaborate. Because I'm suddenly feeling a bit unprepared for some dire catastrophe.
rmitchell
09-06-2018, 07:29
Please elaborate. Because I'm suddenly feeling a bit unprepared for some dire catastrophe.
Old school thinking. Mid 70's era.
Information was on old park service trail maps and from the old blue Sierra Club trail guide.