MinnesotaSmith Update [Archive] - Page 6

Darwin again

08-25-2006, 15:20

After reading his political/social views, I can't believe he's using Wingnuts book! MS, you aren't turning Benedict Arnold on us Conservatives, are you?

MS's only ideological loyalty is to the TRUTH (as he sees it, of course) and to his country. Once again, I reiterate and I repeat that I will not repeat myself, MS is NOT a conservative of typical definition, if he's one at all. More like libertarian spiced with certain, um, controversial leanings.
But when the mosquito bites, does he no bleed red? When the tick bites, does he not ooze yellow pus? MS is not an island unto himself, but a part of the main, when from which a clod falls it diminishes all of us. His success is our success, for he is the archytypical man, versusing himself against man and against nature and against himself, day after day, unendingly, into that primordial forest macabre that is the Appalachian trail. RAGE! MINNESOTA, RAGE! against the dying of the batteries, and don't go quiet into that good night...RAGE! MINNESOTA, RAGE! against the stinging of that blackfly bite.

Regardless of whatever goat he says he prefers to sacrifice, he's welcome at my table anytime. (after a shower)
GO Minnesota!:bananaEnjoy the north, you lucky sucker...wish I was there now.

Mother's Finest

08-25-2006, 15:24

damn darwin, once again, brilliant use of language......

peace
mf

Jack Tarlin

08-25-2006, 15:35

mweinstone

08-25-2006, 16:14

contraversial yes ,but i like him too.

Dances with Mice

08-25-2006, 18:01

Glencliff hostel right now.

Also in Glenciff, Brite Eyes and a Billville organizer but MS was embarrased that he couldn't remember his name. He's sure as soon as he hangs up he'll remember.

Cube Mtn views were stunning.

Hexacube & its privy were amusing.

Lots of muddy troughs in trail, and the trail dries slowly

It's getting cooler, his 40 degree bag was feeling a little thin. He's picking up his winter bag in Glencliff.

He's arranging to slack over Moossilauke Mtn.

Warning to other hikers - "Everything but Anchovies" restaurant in Hanover - he was not pleased w/ the ayce pasta dishes.

A special shout out to Baltimore Jack in Hanover, who was wonderful to him.

Weather is delightful, bugs not a major problem.

It wa a hard hike into Kent.

He's feeling ok - not 100% yet but getting no worse. Still taking antibiotics.

He's feeling the Oct 15 deadline.

He thanks everyone who's helped him so far along the way.

weary

08-25-2006, 18:04

Glad you think it's brilliant use of the Mother Tongue, Mother's Finest.
Now if you can show me a dictionary with the word "versusing" in it, I'd be inclined to believe you.
Otherwise, some very nice use of some fine old quotes.
Language is not static, Jack, as you should know. Language changes over the decades and centuries -- for better or worse. Someone, some forum, has to introduce the new. What better someone, what better forum, than a White Blaze member and White Blaze.

Jack, All of ux who write, borrow from the past. That we use old language in new ways, to express new ideas is not a reason for condemnation of Darwin Again, but for praise.

Weary

Dances with Mice

08-25-2006, 18:31

That we use old language in new ways, to express new ideas is not a reason for condemnation of Darwin Again, but for praise. To recap, for those who may be lost: Weary is condemning Jack for condemning Darwin Again for praising mweinstone's writing about MinnesotaSmith.

StarLyte

08-25-2006, 18:53

To recap, for those who may be lost: Weary is condemning Jack for condemning Darwin Again for praising mweinstone's writing about MinnesotaSmith.

Yeah thanks a lot DWM because I sure as heck wouldn't have known WHAT was goin on. :cool:

The Old Fhart

08-25-2006, 18:56

DWM-"To recap, for those who may be lost: Weary is condemning Jack for condemning Darwin Again for praising mweinstone's writing about MinnesotaSmith."I'm still confused. Who's on first??:D

mweinstone

08-25-2006, 19:03

how am i involved? i dont even understand my own posts. i also dont follow the explanation of the explanation. nor am i able to make sence of the instructions for the instructions. my own brain does all the confusing i need but thanx anyway. oh yeah,..guess who called and what they wanted? i cant remember but they were drunk.

minnisota smith is now available in diet minnisota smith at stores near you.

Dances with Mice

08-25-2006, 19:05

Yeah thanks a lot DWM because I sure as heck wouldn't have known WHAT was goin on. And some people have actually wondered why this has been such a long thread...

STEVEM

08-25-2006, 19:10

MS, Sounds like NH is treating you well. No better place than New England in the fall. Robert Frost also spent some quality time in NH. He has some good advice for everyone: HYOH

THE ROAD NOT TAKEN

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference

ed bell

08-25-2006, 19:31

To recap, for those who may be lost: Weary is condemning Jack for condemning Darwin Again for praising mweinstone's writing about MinnesotaSmith.No, Jack was condemning Mother's Finest for praising Darwin Again's writing. mweinstone was not part of that loop.:rolleyes:

Dances with Mice

08-25-2006, 19:38

No, Jack was condemning Mother's Finest for praising Darwin Again's writing. mweinstone was not part of that loop.I stand corrected. Accuracy is important.

And Darwin Again was replying to Teatime, who also deserves credit.

emerald

08-25-2006, 20:03

THE ROAD NOT TAKEN

I once started a poem in which I borrowed considerably from Robert Frost's poem. Mine was called "The Maine Junction," which is where the Long Trail continues on to Canada and the A.T. bears east for New Hampshire and Maine. I never did finish it, but it seemed headed in the right direction.

Those who know the spot might want to visit Baro's journal (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=152348). It's one of his longer entries and it takes him a while to get to his story to which I refer, but bear with it until you get to the story, it's worth it.

minnesotasmith

08-25-2006, 20:04

I'm at the hostel here, which seems to be a good place. My winter gear did arrive here. Current plan is to slackpack the 9 miles north of here, staying a second night, then leaving for real the following day. Have to do major gear organization, reintegrating all my winter stuff back into my pack. How did it ever all fit before?

Lots of NOBO hikers here; Bright Eyes, Arius, Swiss Miss, Justryan, Hawkeye, E-Rock, Catchup, and a couple others.

Combat and Superstar are SOBOS that are here.

I'm about to put in a NEW signature line. So everyone will know what the clamor was about the old one, I'm posting it here: :D

"1 of the things that most sharply divides the conservative from the modern "liberal" is the liberal's reckless willingness to level what took centuries or longer to grow in public soil, his propensity to pollute religion, poison morals, despoil culture, & upset the delicate balance of our old-growth Constitution. We conserve paintings & manuscripts, furniture & buildings, churches & liturgies, forests, rivers, lakes & shores [affirming] conservative principle.

minnesotasmith

08-25-2006, 20:27

I carry a copy of it with me, and reread it every couple of days for inspiration. I have read it aloud to interested people about half a dozen times so far along the way during my currently-underway thruhike attempt.

Here is a link to the full text: http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/781.html

Here are the parts that most reach me:

"Send not your foolish and feeble; send me your strong and your sane --
Strong for the red rage of battle; sane for I harry them sore;
Send me men girt for the combat, men who are grit to the core;
Swift as the panther in triumph, fierce as the bear in defeat,
Sired of a bulldog parent, steeled in the furnace heat.
Send me the best of your breeding, lend me your chosen ones;
Them will I take to my bosom, them will I call my sons;

the others, the men of my mettle, the men who would 'stablish my fame
Unto its ultimate issue, winning me honor, not shame;
Searching my uttermost valleys, fighting each step as they go,
Shooting the wrath of my rapids, scaling my ramparts of snow;

I am the land that listens, I am the land that broods;
Steeped in eternal beauty, crystalline waters and woods.
Long have I waited lonely, shunned as a thing accurst,
Monstrous, moody, pathetic, the last of the lands and the first;

And I wait for the men who will win me -- and I will not be won in a day;
And I will not be won by weaklings, subtle, suave and mild,
But by men with the hearts of Vikings, and the simple faith of a child;
Desperate, strong and resistless, unthrottled by fear or defeat...

================================================== ====

I also carry a copy of William Henley's "Invictus" with me. Here is its full text (it's short):

Invictus OUT of the night that covers me, Black as the Pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul. In the fell clutch of circumstance 5 I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance My head is bloody, but unbowed. Beyond this place of wrath and tears Looms but the Horror of the shade, 10 And yet the menace of the years Finds, and shall find, me unafraid. It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate: 15 I am the captain of my soul.

emerald

08-25-2006, 20:32

And more mail that can't get into your inbox!

Problem corrected. Thank you for clearing your inbox and your reply.

Another neat thing that can be done with editing priviledges.

Advertisement sponsored by Shades of Gray

Please donate to WhiteBlaze.net and edit responsibly.

minnesotasmith

08-25-2006, 20:46

Finally, I can get mail again. :sun

minnesotasmith

08-25-2006, 20:48

emerald

08-25-2006, 21:16

Don't forget to tell us when we can expect to see you on Mt. Washington.

Jack Tarlin

08-25-2006, 21:31

Geez, Weary, lighten up for heaven's sake.

No one was "condemning" Darwin.

I was merely amused that in a post fairly reeking of education and erudition he included a word that doesn't actually exist.

Tell ya what, Weary. Write back when your sense of humor returns.

T-Dubs

08-25-2006, 21:38

No, Jack was condemning Mother's Finest for praising Darwin Again's writing. mweinstone was not part of that loop.:rolleyes:

From what I can tell, mweinstone is about the only thing holding this whole thread together. :) (Not that it's a bad thing.)

Tom

weary

08-25-2006, 21:46

how am i involved? i dont even understand my own posts.
That's because you refuse to learn to spell.

Weary

Dances with Mice

08-25-2006, 21:49

That's because you refuse to learn to spell.Thank you.

It's getting late and nobody's dissed mweinstone's writing all day. Now we can all go to bed.

Jack Tarlin

08-25-2006, 21:50

Geez, Weary, that's real nice.

You insult poor old Weinstone over his inventive and unusual spelling, but defend other people when they use words that don't exist!

As a grammarian, this lacks consistency, Weary.

ed bell

08-25-2006, 22:32

(Directions to some good stealth camping spots included, ideally.) ;)Are we now dropping the leash, so to speak?;)

minnesotasmith

08-25-2006, 22:44

Are we now dropping the leash, so to speak?;)

1) "Stealth" sites is often construed to mean campsites that are legal, but not on the maps.

2) IMO, the AMC is what is illegal in the Whites, not adhering to normal ATC guidelines as exist elsewhere on virtually the rest of the AT (excluding Baxter, mainly). It's analogous to how the U.S. Fedgov no longer follows the Constitution as its meaning was understood by those who wrote it. Someone who is in rebellion against the Fedgov could conceivably be loyal (and thus law-abiding) to the Constitution and the real law, unlike the criminally-behaving gov't that is outside it.

3) As a partial solution to the AMC problem WRT the AT in the Whites, I propose that shelters with caretakers and hostels on the non-NH part of the AT add an additional $8.00 surcharge and/or a 2-hour work-for-stay option for all NH-driver's-licence-holding hikers and members of the AMC. Likewise, such NH-origin hikers/AMC members could be put under identical regs for camping, etc., in the rest of the AT that thruhikers currently are subject to in the Whites. Just taking a copy of the regs for operating in the Whites, and substituting as needed would be perfect IMO. (Yes, we could make an exception for Baltimore Jack, who is on record as opposing the current AMC system in the Whites.) :D This would end only when the AMC has in place at least 8 normal shelters in the Whites that are totally free for thruhikers, without any work-for-stay requirements.

Jack Tarlin

08-25-2006, 22:44

With all due respect to Smitty, the AMC doesn't really damage anyone's hiking plans that much. True, they over-emphasize high-end lodging places, and in the past few years, have created very few new shelters or care-taker campsites. But except for perhaps a day to a day and a half (between Mizpah Hut and Osgood Campsite), there are thousands of places for hikers to camp.

Looking back on things later on, most thru-hikers come to realize that their fears and anxieties about crossing thru AMC territory were needless. I don't think Smitty's plans or schedule will be any more affected than anyone else's.

Sly

08-25-2006, 22:51

I ran across a couple nice stealth spots, unfortunately most were during mid day and too early to stop. One good one was shortly before the Ethan Pond Shelter across the creek where it paralleled the trail, through a clump of trees. I don't recommned doing a work for stay here. The caretaker worked me like a dog for well over an hour, which wasn't worth the $6 savings.

If you can get a work for stay at one of the huts, see if your chores can be done that afternoon/evening, otherwise plan on a late start the following day.

minnesotasmith

08-25-2006, 22:54

If you can get a work for stay at one of the huts, see if your chores can be done that afternoon/evening, otherwise plan on a late start the following day.

That would likely mean not getting to the next hut by 6:00 P.M., which means no dinner, right?

Jack Tarlin

08-25-2006, 22:58

Sly

08-25-2006, 23:05

That would likely mean not getting to the next hut by 6:00 P.M., which means no dinner, right?
I dunno, never had dinner, but leftovers at Mizpah I did a work stay at Ethan Pond and Mizpah (since the camp sites were full). Paid at Garfield Ridge, the Dungeon, Imp and Speck Pond.

Sly

08-25-2006, 23:10

Despite good intent, it's generally not a good idea to post the location of stealth sites on the Internet, or anywhere else, for that matter.

This is a very good way to get them posted, patrolled, or over-used.

Yeah think? Does the AMC control all of the WMNF?

Anyone that's looking will find it anyway if they're at all curious, since it's one of the flat areas in the Whites.

eric_plano

08-25-2006, 23:16

Excuse my noobness but is stealth camping in the Whites the only way to avoid the huts?

Sly

08-25-2006, 23:21

Here are the rules for backcountry camping in the Whites...

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/white_mountain/recreation/camping/backcountry_rules_2006-07.pdf

Jack Tarlin

08-25-2006, 23:23

Geez, Sly, you're sort of testy tonight.

This wasn't about what the AMC does and does not control.

It was about publicizing campsites that for any number of reasons should not necessarily be advertised.

You've been around long enough to know that publicizing a lot of these places could result in many of them being damaged, or ruined thru over-use.

It could also cause perfectly legal---but little-known----campsites being closed or posted by rangers or ridgerunners who simply don't want folks camping there. I can think of any number of cool "stealth" sites in New Hampshire and Maine where this has taken place,and any number of people have been inconvenienced as a result.

And you know this is true as well as I do.

Sly

08-25-2006, 23:26

Excuse my noobness but is stealth camping in the Whites the only way to avoid the huts?

To me "stealth camping" is low impact and unseen, not illegal. Except for above treeline you can pretty much camp anywhere in the Whites that's over a 1/4 mile from an AMC facility and 200 feet from water and/or a trail.

Jack Tarlin

08-25-2006, 23:28

Eric--

There are all sorts of perfectly legal, official places to camp in the Whites.

In a very few places (say a few miles after Mizpah Hut to treeline on the North side of Mt.Madison) there is no legal place to camp on the AT in the Whites. One either hikes on til one is no longer above treeline and can therefore camp legally, or you have to leave the AT on a side trail, and descend from the ridge, til you are below treeline. There are some great places to camp/shelter just off the ridge, some run my the AMC, and some run by the wonderful Randolph Mountain Club (Such as the Perch).

But to answer your question, there are all sorts of overnight options in the Whites, and not all involve stealth or incognito camping.

weary

08-25-2006, 23:30

Geez, Weary, that's real nice.
You insult poor old Weinstone over his inventive and unusual spelling, but defend other people when they use words that don't exist!
As a grammarian, this lacks consistency, Weary.
Think levity, rather than consistency. Besides, I'm both poorer and older than Weinstone.

Sly

08-25-2006, 23:33

It could also cause perfectly legal---but little-known----campsites being closed or posted by rangers or ridgerunners who simply don't want folks camping there.

As I went walking, I saw a sign there;And on the sign there, It said, 'NO TRESPASSING.'But on the other side, It didn't say nothing.That side was made for you and me.

mweinstone

08-25-2006, 23:34

i dont know what i just read (last few posts). i didnt get enough out of it to get confused. but im guessin its somthing to due with esotarism. witch i dont know what it is. ( from the word(misspelled ) esoteric? witch i think means weird. anyway i can identify any msr part to any msr product with my eyes shut.minnisota smith you sound excited like your really high on being north.im happy for you as are alot of people.your thread goes from professional to goofy alot. oh well. you just hike . just hike.

ed bell

08-25-2006, 23:37

Despite good intent, it's generally not a good idea to post the location of stealth sites on the Internet, or anywhere else, for that matter.

This is a very good way to get them posted, patrolled, or over-used. Well this would be a good time for me to plead ignorance. All this time I thought "stealth sites" were "under the radar" sites to make camp with near zero chance of being found out of compliance of area camping rules. I never thought they were legal areas to camp that were often overlooked. Learn something new everyday.:sun

The Old Fhart

08-25-2006, 23:37

minnesotasmith-"IMO, the AMC is what is illegal in the Whites, not adhering to normal ATC guidelines as exist elsewhere on virtually the rest of the AT (excluding Baxter, mainly). It's analogous to how the U.S. Fedgov no longer follows the Constitution as its meaning was understood by those who wrote it."That shows you have absolutely no knowledge of the Whites or their history. The AMC and the trail system maintained throughout the WMNF was there decades before the ATC was conceived. Basically the A.T. is the "new kid on the block" and the AT uses the existing trails and facilities that have been there, in some cases, since 1819.

The AMC operates under a special use permit issued by the same "Fedgov" you find distasteful and it is the USFS that calls the shots in the WMNF, not the AMC. The Whites are heavily used by "normal" hikers and there is no way that they will cater to a few thru-hikers, some of whom are quite egocentric, at the expense of hundreds of thousands of other hikers who are generally willing to pay the free market price for the services they have available to them.

As to the 3rd of your suggestions, did mweinstone write that for you or did you intend that for the humor section.;)

weary

08-25-2006, 23:46

1) ....IMO, the AMC is what is illegal in the Whites, not adhering to normal ATC guidelines as exist elsewhere on virtually the rest of the AT (excluding Baxter, mainly). ....
As a partial solution to the AMC problem WRT the AT in the Whites, I propose that shelters with caretakers and hostels on the non-NH part of the AT add an additional $8.00 surcharge and/or a 2-hour work-for-stay option for all NH-driver's-licence-holding hikers and members of the AMC. Likewise, such NH-origin hikers/AMC members could be put under identical regs for camping, etc., in the rest of the AT that thruhikers currently are subject to in the Whites. .....
Minnesota S. AMC huts and campsites are in compliance with the laws governing National Forests. Your proposal to discriminate against AMC members and New Hampshire residents is a clear violation of the US Constitutuon -- or at least it should be.

How do you propose to identify those you propose discriminating against -- a national identity card? I suppose one could post the names of all 90,000 AMC members and the million NH residents in each shelter and leave a can people could put their $8 in. You know the honor system.

But that probably wouldn't work. I know a lot of AMC members who probably would cheat.

Wait! I just thought of a solution. All we need do is to post a government agent at each AT campsite and shelter to demand identification. Everyone would be happy with that, I'm sure. Right? MS.

Jack Tarlin

08-25-2006, 23:46

mweinstone

08-25-2006, 23:47

i hope thats minnisota smith. i hate to think hes up this late. that would be pritty awfull. after all we have invested in minnisota smith,.. he ows us to get to bed and hike hard each day. im shocked quite frankly. and i belive i may be frank.GO TO BED1

dont make me come up there!
goodnite moon, goodnight minnisota smith

Sly

08-25-2006, 23:50

LOL... speaking of "This Land" a blast from the past...

http://www.jibjab.com/JokeBox/JokeBox_JJOrig.aspx?movieid=65

ed bell

08-25-2006, 23:58

Ed--

Sometimes the definition gets a bit murky.

In most cases, your "off the radar" description is accurate.

But in some cases, a "stealth" site can also be a secret or hidden spot, sometimes a perfectly legal one, that overzealous rangers or ridgerunners shut down or cover up (with large tree branches, etc.) on their own initiative.

In any case, discreet sites should stay that way, or at the very least, one should probably use a bit of discretion and common sense when talking about them.

Unless, of course, one doesn't care if they disappear.That is more along the lines of what I understood. Not trying to bust anyone's ***** here, just thought it was funny that MS has been a stickler for the rules, yet wanted to know ways to avoid paying money while crossing the Whites by using "stealth sites". I now recognize the fact that he was merely wondering about good, legal campsites close to the AT in the Whites that are not mentioned in the guides. Sorry for insinuating otherwise MS.:sun

Darwin again

08-26-2006, 00:02

damn darwin, once again, brilliant use of language......

peace
mf

Thanks man... (and Jack, too.) I appreciate your appreciation.:cool:

Darwin again

08-26-2006, 00:07

No, Jack was condemning Mother's Finest for praising Darwin Again's writing. mweinstone was not part of that loop.:rolleyes:

But note that Jack's condemnation was backhanded, or at least open-fisted. Which is fine.:D

eric_plano

08-26-2006, 00:19

Jack, thanks for the info in the middle of this flamefest :)

Eric--

There are all sorts of perfectly legal, official places to camp in the Whites.

In a very few places (say a few miles after Mizpah Hut to treeline on the North side of Mt.Madison) there is no legal place to camp on the AT in the Whites. One either hikes on til one is no longer above treeline and can therefore camp legally, or you have to leave the AT on a side trail, and descend from the ridge, til you are below treeline. There are some great places to camp/shelter just off the ridge, some run my the AMC, and some run by the wonderful Randolph Mountain Club (Such as the Perch).

But to answer your question, there are all sorts of overnight options in the Whites, and not all involve stealth or incognito camping.

Darwin again

08-26-2006, 00:27

If anyone can clue me in on a good post on how to minimize damage from the AMC system in the White Mountains to my hiking schedule and budget, please clue me in. (Directions to some good stealth camping spots included, ideally.) ;)

Hey, MS. You're certainly asleep by now, but maybe you'll see this in the morning.
My strategy for the Whites was as follows: Stayed at the Hikers Welcome with Phat Chap et al. I stealthed up over a ridge to the west of the trail after that big climb out of the parking area after Moosilauke.
After that, I just tented on the AMC platforms for 8 bucks a night, with the exception of two nights at the Meadowlark Motor Court in North Woodstock. I wound up zeroing one day (stayed two nights) inside the 12-person Garfield Ridge shelter while watching the remnants of Katrina blow rain horizontally and shake the entire structure. Liberty Spring (I think that's the name) tentsite is only a short hike out of North Woodstock and stages you perfectly for the run along Franconia Ridge and over to Garfield. Tented at Ethan Pond tentsite. Tented at Nauman tent site near Mizpah Hut. Next was Osgood Tent site (free) on the other side of the Presidentials (long day--too long.). I stealthed about a mile beyond the Pinkham Notch Visitors Center one night. (Don't miss the buffet food at the visitors center.) For me, the logistics in the Whites were no problemo and I didn't mind paying the 8 bucks to tent along the way. I could have stopped at the huts and tried the work for stay, but was not inclined. Good luck...

minnesotasmith

08-26-2006, 06:32

That shows you have absolutely no knowledge of the Whites or their history. The AMC and the trail system maintained throughout the WMNF was there decades before the ATC was conceived. Basically the A.T. is the "new kid on the block" and the AT uses the existing trails and facilities that have been there, in some cases, since 1819.

The AMC operates under a special use permit issued by the same "Fedgov" you find distasteful and it is the USFS that calls the shots in the WMNF, not the AMC. The Whites are heavily used by "normal" hikers and there is no way that they will cater to a few thru-hikers, some of whom are quite egocentric, at the expense of hundreds of thousands of other hikers who are generally willing to pay the free market price for the services they have available to them.

As to the 3rd of your suggestions, did mweinstone write that for you or did you intend that for the humor section.;)

1) The previous agreements Congress laid out were IMO superseded by the acts creating the AT and covering their operation. (These were at the same level, unlike those WRT the Fedgov ignoring the Constitution, so are valid, unlike the latter.)

2) Actually, I believe that my suggestions about how to fix the problem with the AMC & the Whites were logical and plausible. I mean, come on, if it's okay to walk and sit on the rocks, it's okay to lie down on them and sleep on them. There is lichen on virtually every rock of any size on the entire AT, and no one gets bent out of shape if you step on some outside the Whites. Besides, if I happen to kill some lichen by stepping on it, well, that patch of lichen was chemically weathering the rock it was atop, and my footstep will have extended the life of that rock. "Bushwack and illegally camp and save the Whites!" Not much of a ring to it, but it's got a certain logic to it. ;)

mweinstone

08-26-2006, 08:32

press one now to leave a non political comment. press two now to leave a boring political comment. press 3 now if you never vote and never would in a million years and you hate the irs.3333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333 33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333 33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333 33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333

mweinstone

08-26-2006, 09:34

matthewski the funny man isnt very funny right now. he will be back when im me again. got a big bill from the irs yesterday and now im bummed.if i could change places with minnisota smith i would. as long as i could keep my kid.im gonna go blow a wad of money now. maby that will help. subscription to mad mag is on my list. i swear ,.. i really would change lives with someone else if i could. trail and city are unlikly brothers. the world away from town is so much better isnt it? hey my friend,.. dont you forget how great the trail is.

The Old Fhart

08-26-2006, 09:54

minnesotasmith-"The previous agreements Congress laid out were IMO superseded by the acts creating the AT and covering their operation. (These were at the same level, unlike those WRT the Fedgov ignoring the Constitution, so are valid, unlike the latter.)"
Again you show total ignorance of the history and the current rules, regulations, and laws in the Whites. Your so-called "logic" is faulty so if, as you so superciliously imply, the more current agreements take precedent, the AMC hut renewal occurred in 1999. The 2005 WMNF forestry plan that specifies every possible use of the WMNF is available as a 32Mb download if you want to read it as well. So no matter how you look at it and no mater what your “IMO” say to you, you are not in the same astral plane as the rest of the planet. Even though you’d like the world to revolve around you, it ain’t gonna happen.

minnesotasmith-"Actually, I believe that my suggestions about how to fix the problem with the AMC & the Whites were logical and plausible. I mean, come on, if it's okay to walk and sit on the rocks, it's okay to lie down on them and sleep on them."
Again you are displaying total ignorance (notice I didn’t say stupidity, but it is close) of the area and its unique geological and historical features. Anyone who knows Franconia Ridge, the area around Lakes Of The Clouds, or countless other environmentally sensitive areas, knows they have to be protected them people like you who show no interest in, and have no concern for the environment. You probably don’t care if the Dwarf Cinquefoil (the rarest alpine plant in NE) or the Diapensia, or the Mountain Azalea are trampled by barbarians like yourself but others do care. There are RUAs (look it up) where more stringent rules apply and an informed and concerned hiker would obey the rules to protect the environment.

It is sad that you view your hike like Sherman’s march to the sea, with no concern of anyone around and no concern for how your egocentric behavior affects the environment or the hikers who will hike the trail long after you’re gone.

Dust

08-26-2006, 10:55

Fart - I think Old Smittie is ayanking yer chain. :D

Besides, if I happen to kill some lichen by stepping on it, well, that patch of lichen was chemically weathering the rock it was atop, and my footstep will have extended the life of that rock.

:-?

mweinstone

08-26-2006, 11:30

minnisota smith is allways deadpan serious.going back out to drown my sorrows in spending. hey minnisota smith. your a mans man. you speak the truth and all you lack in my opinion is a fanatical zelot like jesus freakyness like i have. and i would like some of your brain please. did some guy wanna eat einsteins brain once? did i read that ?

Mother's Finest

08-26-2006, 11:36

Hi Jack.....I am laughing as I type this....I guess that next time I give kudos, I should do a better job of proofing text. or maybe I should look up the origin of the quote, and include that in an endnote.....

either way brother, I still think that Darwin puts thoughts to paper in a very creative manner.

and one more thing.....KEEP ON TRUCKIN' MINNESOTA SMITH

peace
mf

The Old Fhart

08-26-2006, 11:57

googoogaga-"Fart - I think Old Smittie is ayanking yer chain."
I assume you are referring to me although my name has a few too many letters in it for you to spell it correctly!;)

Is this like Minnesotasmith's yanking everyone's chain with his masogonistic, racist, and other off-the-wall views that he repeats ad nauseum?? I think you have missed that I'm talking about MS's whole distorted view of the Whites and that his recommendations on everything from free shelters for thru-hikers to the ATC ruling the trail through the Whites is based on illogic and ignorance.

mweinstone

08-26-2006, 13:42

think not.a racist gives them selves away as a racist. their is no hiding it. growing up a city kid i know who is and isnt. but you jest for true.and laugh do you. at the blazers blazing mad. and you push . and push. your a pusher. thanks for listening to this episode of "as mat rants." and now,... i will go out one more time to spend more money i dont have. does minnisota smith win anything if he succeeds? you know like a patch or something? and how will he honor that patch? will he recklessly sew it to a coat? framed in walnut on the wall?or protest will he? your pit of political embers you guys have been huddled around for a year now is fun to stir .

Darwin again

08-26-2006, 14:55

Again you show total ignorance of the history and the current rules, regulations, and laws in the Whites. Your so-called "logic" is faulty so if, as you so superciliously imply, the more current agreements take precedent, the AMC hut renewal occurred in 1999. The 2005 WMNF forestry plan that specifies every possible use of the WMNF is available as a 32Mb download if you want to read it as well. So no matter how you look at it and no mater what your “IMO” say to you, you are not in the same astral plane as the rest of the planet. Even though you’d like the world to revolve around you, it ain’t gonna happen.

Again you are displaying total ignorance (notice I didn’t say stupidity, but it is close) of the area and its unique geological and historical features. Anyone who knows Franconia Ridge, the area around Lakes Of The Clouds, or countless other environmentally sensitive areas, knows they have to be protected them people like you who show no interest in, and have no concern for the environment. You probably don’t care if the Dwarf Cinquefoil (the rarest alpine plant in NE) or the Diapensia, or the Mountain Azalea are trampled by barbarians like yourself but others do care. There are RUAs (look it up) where more stringent rules apply and an informed and concerned hiker would obey the rules to protect the environment.

It is sad that you view your hike like Sherman’s march to the sea, with no concern of anyone around and no concern for how your egocentric behavior affects the environment or the hikers who will hike the trail long after you’re gone.

Oh please, Old Fahrt. I think MS understands the rules and regulations and situation in the Whites perfectly. He just hasn't been conditioned to being controlled and herded like a sheep through his nature experience. MS is typically and quintessentially American in his views on liberty and personal freedoms. His position is merely a response to the attitudes embodied by the extra-special and unique elitists that characterize the AMC, as expresed in their despotic and patronizing policies in the Whites. The AMC's is a system based on financial patronage, all up and down the line. Minnesota Smith is not part of the human-control problem in the Whites, he's merely responding to it.

So the AMC has wormed its way into the political process and eked out a niche based on its sense of entitlement to the point that it holds semi-fascist powers along the section of Appalachian Trail it thinks it owns. Good News: With rising gas prices, sooner that you think fewer and fewer people will even be able to afford to go to the mountains, except the wealthy elites. Then they can have the mountains to themselves. After a time, say 50 or 80 or 100 years, the traffic will dwindle to the point that the huts will no longer be viable and will be abandoned to become rubble, since the elite fetish for mountain clubbing will go out of style once rustic living becomes the social norm. The WMNF forestry plan is an environmentalist pacifier right now, but when millions of people in the northeast megalopolis start to get cold in the winter of fossil fuel depletion, wood will be the next most available thing to burn. It's a national forest and it's there for a reason: a resource reserve.

MS is probably expessing frustration at our government right now, just like many of us. Governments change and fall, but human beings cannot, Cannot, CANNOT destroy mountains in any significantly permanent way, especially rugged massive igneous ones like the Whites. The Earth recycles and it will eventually recycle us. There are millions of varieties of flowers like the Dwarf Cinquefoil and Mountain Azalea yet to come that will thankfully and happily live out their entire species existence without being observed by the naked ape who believes himself to be a king of all he surveys. At this point, conservation is more important than preservation. I know the human being and the fish can coexist peacefully, but that peaceful relationship is strained when humans have to put food on their families or gas in their cars or heat in their homes. Nature is red of tooth and claw, but everything natural that humans touch turns up wrecked or destroyed or exhausted, good intentions or not. The AMC's efforts in the Whites are child-like exercises in control, nothing more.

Most of the rest of the planet, outside of these United States, takes baths in plastic buckets and would instantly cut every tree in the Whites for firewood if they could. Frankly, being on their astral plane would suck. MS occupies an astral plane that is more prescient than many of us dare admit. The Whites and their unique geological and historical features do not belong only to the past, but they have a history yet to come, yet to be written, wherein cinquefoils will be the least of it. An analogy to MS's environmental position is, I believe, something like this: He's concerned with keeping the house from burning down, whereas the AMC is interested in keeping the porcelain figurines in the parlor from getting dusty.
Yes, there are thousands of places to camp in the Whites.

And yeah, there's probably some chain rattling going on here, but it's the MS thread. Whadaya expect? ;) Good weekend, all!
http://www.oilposter.org/index.html
http://haveskunk.blogspot.com

mweinstone

08-26-2006, 15:49

a play with actors reading this whole thread!

Jack Tarlin

08-26-2006, 16:09

mweinstone

08-26-2006, 16:19

forced to take vivrin and keep walking.

The Old Fhart

08-26-2006, 16:29

Darwin again(post #1316)-"Oh please,....................................Good weekend, all!"Everything you wrote in between "please" and "Good" is the most amazing collection of buzz-words, nonsense, platitudes, and dribble I have seen in ages! It isn’t worth commenting on because there isn’t a coherent or logical thought in your entire post.
_________________________
That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history. -Aldous Huxley

weary

08-26-2006, 16:33

Oh please, Old Fahrt. ....MS is typically and quintessentially American in his views on liberty and personal freedoms. His position is merely a response to the attitudes embodied by the extra-special and unique elitists that characterize the AMC, as expresed in their despotic and patronizing policies in the Whites. The AMC's is a system based on financial patronage, all up and down the line. ...So the AMC has wormed its way into the political process and eked out a niche based on its sense of entitlement to the point that it holds semi-fascist powers along the section of Appalachian Trail it thinks it owns. ....
Your problem, Darwin A., is that your imaginings about who constitutes the AMC membership are totally false.

I've been kicking around the edges of the AMC since they gave me an honorary membership 30 years ago. (They seemed to think I had something to do with the recovery of 400,000 acres of land about that time.)

Anyway. I put out the Maine Chapter newsletter and go to Maine chapter and occasionally national club meetings from time to time. The people I see are far from elites in the sense you imagine. Most strike me as being on the lower fringes of the middleclass.

I see legal secretaries, teachers, computer repair people, a small town investment adviser, a retired welfare case worker, an antiques auctioneer, an insurance saleman, a hostel operator, a seasonal LL Bean employee, a college teacher ....

All qualify as special people. They run meetings, lead guided hikes, teach folks white water paddling, arrange wilderness first aid classes... They are great and dedicated people, working to show others and to teach others about the mountains, hills and rivers they love and protect.

No one I've met in all these years strike me as having "attitudes embodied by the extra-special and unique elitists that characterize the AMC, as expresed in their despotic and patronizing policies in the Whites."

Most recognize that alpine plants and animals are fragile and support efforts that protect them. If that qualifies as elitism in your mind, I say we need more, not fewer.

WEary

Darwin again

08-26-2006, 16:33

Darwin--

Quick reply: All in all I'd rather have the AMC running facilities in the Whites than a private entity whose sole concern was profits.

The AMC doesn't do everything right, but at least their heart is generally in the right place. All in all, I'd rather have them in charge up there than a for0-profit corporation.

Better the devil you know...

Hyperbole and geo-historical big-picture rants aside, I have to agree, Jack.

I didn't have any problem with the AMC employees or caretakers in the Whites. I did my thing, they did theirs. I can see how the air of exclusivity rubs AT hikers the wrong way, maybe the mere idea of it...

But it could always be worse. I once paid Aramark $16 for two cheeseburgers and a hot dog at a wayside in Shenandoah.
The dog didn't even really like her burger, either...:cool:

Skyline

08-26-2006, 17:12

Hyperbole and geo-historical big-picture rants aside, I have to agree, Jack.

I didn't have any problem with the AMC employees or caretakers in the Whites. I did my thing, they did theirs. I can see how the air of exclusivity rubs AT hikers the wrong way, maybe the mere idea of it...

But it could always be worse. I once paid Aramark $16 for two cheeseburgers and a hot dog at a wayside in Shenandoah.
The dog didn't even really like her burger, either...:cool:

That's a PERFECT analogy. Just imagine Aramark running the Whites' hut system. Jack's right, better the devil you know . . .

Darwin again

08-26-2006, 17:27

Your problem, Darwin A., is that your imaginings about who constitutes the AMC membership are totally false.
WEary

Please, Weary, I'm aware of my problems and I don't need you to elucidate them for me, no offense intended.

I'm fairly tounge-in-cheeky in this context, on the MS thread.
But there does seem to be a noticeable sense of entitlement expressed by the defenders of the AMC, specifically their policies in the Whites vis-a-vis thru hikers, and that irritates me, in tone if nothing else. I know this is a well-worn topic, so I won't belabor it.

I do know that the people I've seen at the AMC huts look, act and dress like tourists, not hikers.
I do know that those good folks have people to wait on them and cook their food, just like at a hotel.
I do know that the first thing a long-distance hiker becomes aware of in the Whites are the rules, the huts and the fees.
I just know what I've seen and that's not false or faulty or fiction.

No hiker can tell me that after walking from Georgia virtually unfettered, that these rules, restrictions and fees don't chafe them, at least at some level, at least a little bit or for at least a moment. I think MS is responding to that feeling, and is not unjustified in doing so.

I'm still thinking that if the huts weren't there, the hiker traffic would be fairly restricted to day hikers just due to the nature of the terrain. But that's academic given the depth of the AMC infestation -- the huts are semi-permanent (until their inevitable abandonment). If the Whites are so fragile, why not cook up a permit system to control the debauching hoardes? Turnstiles at trailheads. An armed ranger next to every plant and hire summit stewards to write tickets on offenders. Paved walkways across the ranges (nearly have those already). Fortunately, hiker volume in the Whites will likely only marginally increase for about the next 30 years, then drop off dramatically.

I don't know which hikers I've met are card-carrying AMCers and I don't care. But the ones I've seen at the huts have to be members to be allowed to stay at them, no? If the membership of the AMC isn't elitist, the AMC policies along the AT are certainly supportive of concluding that it is elitist. The AMC is a club with members.
Obviously, membership has its privileges. (And I'd like to see the resumes of the "ordinary folk" who run the AMC, just for kicks and grins...)

I'll grudgingly accept the aegis of the AMC, but I don't gotta like it. :cool:
POWER TO THE PIPPLES!!!

Jack Tarlin

08-26-2006, 17:41

Darwin raised some excellent points.

The AMC for decades has stated that it's main purpose is to be the wise steward of some incredibly fragile areas, including the White Mountains.

Several years ago, on their own website Bulletin Board (a section called "Mountains and Molehills"), I publicly asked the AMC to tell us how much they spent on glossy advertising whose sole purpose was to entice more folks to visit these very fragile lands---and to patronize AMC lodging places when they did so.

The AMC never answered.

Shortly thereafter, "Mountains and Molehills" disappeared from their website.

I'm still curious......how much DO they spend on these ads, and if the areas in question are indeed so fragile, are they well served by the AMC's encouraging thousands more folks to visit them?

Lugnut

08-26-2006, 17:46

If MS keeps thumbing his nose at the AMC it can't be long before someone accuses him of Doyleism. Every time Warren says something about sticking it to the man the whole site goes nuts. Maybe nobody is taking MS seriously? :rolleyes:

Jack Tarlin

08-26-2006, 17:53

Correction, Lugnut: Smitty is merely saying he objects to paying user fees.

The other gentleman you mentioned not only boasts of not paying them, but instructs others on how they can similarly defraud people.

The difference is significant.

Lugnut

08-26-2006, 17:59

The difference is significant.

Not so much. The desire is there and I would assume he would take advantage of a stealth spot if anyone tells him where they are. :D

ed bell

08-26-2006, 18:33

Not so much. The desire is there and I would assume he would take advantage of a stealth spot if anyone tells him where they are. :DMaybe I really do understand the term "stealth".:D I think MS's resentment of the AMC setup boils down to two issues IMO: 1) Money 2) Energy. I believe he resents the prospect of paying $ to stay the night while hiking. I also believe he resents having to spend extra energy to walk off the trail a significant distance in order to legally camp. After all this is the same hiker that wanted all shelters to be located trailside and evenly spaced every 8 miles.

The Old Fhart

08-26-2006, 18:53

Darwin again-"I don't know which hikers I've met are card-carrying AMCers and I don't care. But the ones I've seen at the huts have to be members to be allowed to stay at them, no?"
Yes, the answer is “no”.;) Even people like you can pay and stay at a hut. You can even pay your dues to become a member and help support the AMC’s environmental policies of trying to keep elitist thru-hikers from damaging the fragile alpine environment.

Darwin again-"If the membership of the AMC isn't elitist, the AMC policies along the AT are certainly supportive of concluding that it is elitist. The AMC is a club with members." Actually you have it backwards. The overwhelming opinion of the state park people, the “normal” hikers, and everyone else that visit or works in the Whites is that the this trickle of thru-hikers that make up such a small percentage of the hiker traffic, feel that they are ‘special” and entitled to privileges that others don’t get.

Oh when you say-"The AMC is a club with members", what would you expect, a club without members?:-?

Darwin Again-"Obviously, membership has its privileges. (And I'd like to see the resumes of the "ordinary folk" who run the AMC, just for kicks and grins...)" Weary already answered that by giving you brief resumes of some AMC people but you apparently didn’t care to acknowledge that because it didn’t fit in with your distorted view of the world.

Sly

08-26-2006, 21:09

For the longest time MS was ranting about modern liberals and their quest to tear down establishments built by conservatives in his past sig, but he himself is doing the same thing with his neo-rant against the AMC, founded in 1876 and the oldest conservation club in the US.

No wonder he changed his sig...... :rolleyes:

rickb

08-26-2006, 21:19

I can understand why MS doesn't want to pay for an AMC campsite, but who should?

Why does the AMC charge an $8 fee at some backcountry campsites?

A couple years ago, it was posted that:

The AMC's 14 shelters in the White and Mahoosuc Mountains cost about $167,000 to operate and maintain. Operational costs include caretaker salaries, airlifts, capital improvements, transportation, and food for caretakers.

During this same period it was also said that:

The AMC projected that with the $8 fee, they would be receiving approximately $108,800 in user fees per year. The net loss of $58,200 will be absorbed by the AMC using income from membership dues, endowments, and fundraising

I wonder if people like MS realize that his stay is being susidized by the Club he so despizes for charging anything?

minnesotasmith

08-26-2006, 22:15

1) Darwin has shown some very deep thinking on this thread IMNSHO.

2) I have yet to get a direct answer to these points:

A) if it's okay to walk on the rocks, why is it not okay to sleep on them? The answer IMO is that the (over)paying guests have to be able to get to the huts to get fleeced, while the AMC people could care less if thruhikers have a place to sleep unf'ed with or not. Conversely, if it's not alright to sleep on the rocks in the Whites, it should be illegal to hike on them.

B) Why is the AMC perpetually unable/unwilling to install a standard set of shelters as exist on the rest of the AT, with those shelters operating under exactly the same policies as exist on 90%+ the rest of the AT ? If the AMC's managers are unable, those managers are arguably the least competent of all the AT overseers, and should be replaced ASAP by some managers from one of the many other (such as any of them) Trail sections who don't have this demonstrated ability lack. If unwilling, cupidity is the likely answer, and again they should be replaced.

C) The AMC hut system in the Whites reminds me of nothing so much as what would be the case if owners of motels located near Trail crossings got a gov't mandate to tell hikers they could not camp within a substantial distance of where the AT crossed a road, and got all the shelters torn down. This would be solely to push the hikers into dealing with those motels, either paying exorbitant rates, or serving as low-paid menial labor to gain what hikers get for free without delay or work on the rest of the AT.

I would like nothing more than to finally install the normal system of regular shelters in the Whites, and to have regular camping policies there, so that I (and other, like-minded thruhikers) can ignore and be ignored by the hut system, in exactly the same way as I currently completely ignore (and am ignored by) motels near road crossings, and push on either to a shelter, or camp when it gets near dark.

Jack Tarlin

08-26-2006, 22:24

mweinstone

08-26-2006, 22:28

... to your regularly schedualed minnisota smith thread allready in progress.

minnesotasmith

08-26-2006, 22:29

Smitty:

If the White Mountains were a National Park, they'd be the most visited National Park in the nation.

Thru-hikers represent a miniscule fraction of the folks who visit this area annually, probably around a tenth of one per cent, if that.

I know this might be hard for you to believe, Smitty, but thru-hikers deserve no special rights, privileges, or courtesies while in the Whites or anywhere else. This includes "discounts" on lodging.

You say that the AMC could care less about the thru-hikers.

It would perhaps be more correct to say that the club reralizes that these folks represent a tiny percentage of the folks who visit or pass thru the Whites each year, and there is no reason for the club---or anyone else for that matter---to grant them special rights and perks.

The Smokies are comparable in their situation as a national park, but manage (albeit imperfectly) to have a shelter system. How is it that their management is so much more able than the AMC, with a similiar starting situation?

I don't want special consideration in the Whites. I would only want to be treated as I am everywhere else on the AT (and you know perfectly well how that is). The tourons currently patronizing the huts would of course be free to use the shelters, presuming they got there first, and weren't a large (i.e., 5+ in #) group, which should of course always camp.

mweinstone

08-26-2006, 22:36

The tourons currently patronizing the huts would of course be free to use the shelters, presuming they got there first, and weren't a large (i.e., 5+ in #) group, which should of course always camp.

arent tourons from tourene,bulls urine contained in the popular energy drink , red bull? and go to sleep .

minnesotasmith

08-26-2006, 22:38

A couple years ago, it was posted that:

The AMC's 14 shelters in the White and Mahoosuc Mountains cost about $167,000 to operate and maintain. Operational costs include caretaker salaries, airlifts, capital improvements, transportation, and food for caretakers.

Well, I would tell them to cut out the pay and food for caretakers (the ones who collect fees from hikers as opposed to do maintenance), if money is in such short supply with their current poor management practices.;)

Why can't they just learn about how the other AT section overseers manage their money so that A) screwing with hikers and how they do normal camping (as accepted on the rest of the AT) isn't necessary, and B) the AMC will finally have money left over after glossy ads, websites, manager salaries, etc., to have the normal AT shelter system put in in the Whites?

I really think it's time the AMC got up to the level of the rest of the AT.
I mean, fricking Pennsylvania, with all their unfinished Trail issues (and all the management problems those fairly scream) at least had shelters, and generally decent ones.

minnesotasmith

08-26-2006, 22:41

Your problem, Darwin A., is that your imaginings about who constitutes the AMC membership are totally false.

I've been kicking around the edges of the AMC since they gave me an honorary membership 30 years ago. (They seemed to think I had something to do with the recovery of 400,000 acres of land about that time.)

Anyway. I put out the Maine Chapter newsletter and go to Maine chapter and occasionally national club meetings from time to time. The people I see are far from elites in the sense you imagine. Most strike me as being on the lower fringes of the middleclass.

I see legal secretaries, teachers, computer repair people, a small town investment adviser, a retired welfare case worker, an antiques auctioneer, an insurance saleman, a hostel operator, a seasonal LL Bean employee, a college teacher ....

All qualify as special people.
WEary

Not a chance of being true. Special by definition means unusual, atypical of the majority of the group. Most would have to be ordinary people, with all the flaws and lacks (i.e., of vision and ethics) that ordinary people have. Methinks you are unclear on the meaning of the word "special".

minnesotasmith

08-26-2006, 22:43

I slack-packed over Mt. Moosilauke today. Heck of a climb, wondrous view.

Saw a moose from 10' away while en route to the trailhead, too. (Yes, I got its picture.) Apt in a certain way.

mweinstone

08-26-2006, 22:44

this just in,... human beings have run out of things to bitch about.

Jack Tarlin

08-26-2006, 22:48

Smitty:

I suspect you are posting from Glencliff.

With all due respect, perhaps you should actually pass thru the section of the Trail overseen by the AMC before passing such harsh judgment on them.

I suspect that you will not have such a difficult time with camping and campsites as you fear. I also think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the friendliness and helpfulness of the people the club employs, particularly at the Huts.

I really think you should actually have some experience hiking in this area before you are so quick to condemn the folks who are charged with its care.

When you're done with this section,you might not think the AMC is so horrible after all.

mweinstone

08-26-2006, 22:58

and maby he will meet his soul mate ,... working as a hut driver. i hate the huts and ive never been there. you see jack the hut system is whats wrong with the world. they suck on paper. no one needs an up close in person veiw. they suck, youve been fooled. they suck for a mirid of reasons too obvious to need mentioning but of all the reasons, slavery was outlawed and working to stay at there rates they dont need me to work.and there evil. there evil exzudes all down the trail. they are condemed and hated. who loves them? name a thru hiker who cant wait to be humiliated and ripped off? they are natzies and i hope they go to a really bad place called hell.once in hell i want them to have to watch there presious huts burn. then i want lyme tics to kill all of them and finaly i want the part of the earth containing these huts to break off and go spinning wildly off into space. thats my christmas wish.

fiddlehead

08-26-2006, 23:02

Sly

08-26-2006, 23:14

LOL.. the Whites suck and they're going to kick y'alls ass! Deservedly so! Get on up there and haul some rock around if you want to change things...

minnesotasmith

08-26-2006, 23:21

LOL.. the Whites suck and they're going to kick y'alls ass! Deservedly so! Get on up there and haul some rock around if you want to change things...

I have no major desire to change the trail in what I have seen of the Whites so far. (That's Moosilauke, plus the roughly 10 miles south of Glencliff that are in the White Mtn. Nat'l Forest.) I understand perfectly well the difference between hard trail (much of what I hiked today) and stupid trail (about 60 miles of the AT in PA between the 501 shelter and the PA/NJ line). I would very much like to change the management and rules in the Whites, however. I rather doubt they would allow me to construct a regular free trail shelter 1/5 mile from Lake of the Crowds, for example.

The Old Fhart

08-26-2006, 23:28

Minnesotasmith “2) I have yet to get a direct answer to these points:”
You have had these points answered several times by different people, you just refuse to acknowledge that you are totally wrong or in your own little nether world..

Minnesotasmith-"if it's okay to walk on the rocks, why is it not okay to sleep on them?" One of the more ignorant things you’ve said. How about: “if it's okay to walk on the sidewalks, why is it not okay to sleep on them?” The USFS has made the rules (and they are extremely reasonable) that there is no camping in certain areas, and that includes above treeline, the AMC has absolutely no say in those regulations. Those types of rules have been in place since you left Georgia. There was only one camping spot within 4.5 miles north of DWG when I went thru, you could only stay at specific campsites in Maryland , no camping at picnic shelters in VA or around ponds and campsites in VT, no camping on Crawford Pond in Maine, the list goes on and on.

Minnesotasmith “B) Why is the AMC perpetually unable/unwilling to install a standard set of shelters as exist on the rest of the AT……” As has been pointed out to you several times it is the WMNF and not the AMC’s land. The USFS dictates what can be done on WMNF land, the AMC has no say-can’t you understand that simple concept?

Minnesotasmith "C) The AMC hut system in the Whites reminds me of nothing so much as what would be the case if owners of motels located near Trail crossings got a gov't mandate to tell hikers they could not camp within a substantial distance of where the AT crossed a road, and got all the shelters torn down." Going from ignorant to ludicrous, this analogy is just laughable! The 0.25 mile buffer around huts is so hikers don’t destroy all the vegetation by camping close to the huts or shelters. When I was in Yosemite I had to stay at the hiker campground, a hotel in the park, or go miles outside to find a place to stay. Every heavy-use area has these types of rules, they aren't unique to the Whites.

Quit spending your whole hike complaining about everything around you, start hiking and stop grousing.

Jack Tarlin

08-26-2006, 23:37

Smith, 1/5th of a mile from Lakes of the Clouds in ANY direction is well above treeline. Shelters simply don't belong there.

You really need to go thru these areas and see what they're like before announcing what you think is needed and required there, or where you think these facilities should be.

Dust

08-26-2006, 23:47

If MS keeps thumbing his nose at the AMC it can't be long before someone accuses him of Doyleism.

or Dworkinism :eek:

Sly

08-27-2006, 00:10

Quit spending your whole hike complaining about everything around you, start hiking and stop grousing.

You noticed that too? :p

poor old minnisota smit, like post turtle...

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=610&d=1142698410

minnesotasmith

08-27-2006, 00:32

Smith, 1/5th of a mile from Lakes of the Clouds in ANY direction is well above treeline. Shelters simply don't belong there.

No cover from rain or sun or hail, no place to hang a food bag, no easy spot to hang a hammock, all on what I have heard is difficult hiking terrain -- sounds to me like an eminently worthwhile place to place a trailside shelter.

Frankly, I see no reason but human ones for not having shelters along the entire AT no less than every 12 miles (ideally every 8). Oh, and yes, the ones over 0.3 miles from the AT should in most cases be helicoptered to within 0.1 mile of the AT. I'd much rather drop my pack and hike downhill to a water source (hiking back uphill with water but sans pack) than having to haul my pack most of a mile off the Trail to a shelter that could easily have been located right on it (i.e., the 666-mile shelter in VA). This opinion about appropriate shelter locations is widely held by hikers, going by shelter register entries I've read over the last 6+ months. The Cumberland Valley is another place where not having several shelters is inexcusable.

Darwin again

08-27-2006, 01:07

The AMC's 14 shelters in the White and Mahoosuc Mountains cost about $167,000 to operate and maintain. Operational costs include caretaker salaries, airlifts, capital improvements, transportation, and food for caretakers. ...

... The AMC projected that with the $8 fee, they would be receiving approximately $108,800 in user fees per year. The net loss of $58,200 will be absorbed by the AMC using income from membership dues, endowments, and fundraising

I know truth is blasphemy in some quarters, but here I go.

I dont' think MS or any other thru hiker ASKS to be subsidized by the generous and aristocratic AMC when they begin their thru hike, but are humbly grateful for the noblesse oblige.

And if the gallant AMC didn't have permanent bases in the green zone, er, I mean the presence of 14 shelters with all that super-porky-pig operating overhead, including helicopter-airlifting in live goats or whatever, the AMC wouldn't have to run in the red for the sake of their generous and boldly philanthropic operation.

Businesses that lose money either learn to cut costs or they go bankrupt. Either the AMC gulags lose money or they don't. It looks like they do, but the junta just winks and nods and writes off the loss while the hut croos conduct donut raids in the night between huts. (THAT has to be good for the lichen) These AMC people should run the US government...

The Old Fhart

08-27-2006, 01:10

minnesotasmith(referring to Lakes)-"No cover from rain or sun or hail, no place to hang a food bag, no easy spot to hang a hammock, all on what I have heard is difficult hiking terrain -- sounds to me like an eminently worthwhile place to place a trailside shelter."Only a complete ignoramus would suggest putting a shelter in a totally exposed area that has some of the world's worst weather. Even the enclosed high huts like Lakes Of The Clouds close around September 15 because of weather.

I know you find it hard to believe that countless highly knowledgeable people who have hiked and worked in this area for decades know more than a neophite like yourself who has never been there, but still considers himself the expert, not on just this area, but of everything related to the A.T. Your hubris knows no bounds.

Darwin again

08-27-2006, 01:21

If the White Mountains were a National Park, they'd be the most visited National Park in the nation.

Thru-hikers represent a miniscule fraction of the folks who visit this area annually, probably around a tenth of one per cent, if that.

It's easy to see how regularly spaced shelters through the Whites would attract many more of these hoardes of visitors and create areas of extremely high impact on the ecology and environment. Conveniently spaced shelters would become focal points for all manner of degradation.

Instead, all of these visitors are bottlenecked through the highly regulated AMC huts, where they can stay for a fee or be encouraged to move on down the mountain by quasi-officials. It's almost as though, if there were no places to stay, impact would be ... REDUCED? :-?

The AMC could spend the $100,000 annual cost of the hut system on shuttle buses around to the trailheads and recoup the $58,000 it loses every year on them. Unless it doesn't want to save that money.

Darwin again

08-27-2006, 01:44

Only a complete ignoramus would suggest putting a shelter in a totally exposed area that has some of the world's worst weather. Even the enclosed high huts like Lakes Of The Clouds close around September 15 because of weather.

I know you find it hard to believe that countless highly knowledgeable people who have hiked and worked in this area for decades know more than a neophite like yourself who has never been there, but still considers himself the expert, not on just this area, but of everything related to the A.T. Your hubris knows no bounds.

Territorial and ego-driven pissing contest: I rest my case.

Only a cruel and callous egomaniac would call a hiker who hadn't experienced the Whites a complete ingnoramus. We're all born ignorant and is not MS and his hike a metaphor for us all?

Not very nice, Mr. "I'm special and you're all stupid" Fart Man.
Have you checked your hubris meter today? It's pegging...

SGT Rock

08-27-2006, 01:58

You know MS has a point. The Whites do not have the same shelter system as the rest of the AT.

My solution (to make the whole thing fair) is to advocate tearing down the shelters on the rest of the trail to make the whole thing fair.

Damn ATC developing a sense of entitlement in hikers! They are turning everyone into shelter dependent socialists! Lets get MS to champion our cause. Surely we can all be as strong as him and bring our own shelter into the woods and be self sufficient! Surly we can cast of the sniveling of an entitlement class seeking people to provide for us what we have not earned!

Down with shelters! Who is with me?

Darwin again

08-27-2006, 02:05

If long-distance hikers make up such a miniscule percentage of the users of the AT in the Whites, why doesn't the ever-generous AMC just allow them to stay in those big stone buildings, huts, shelters, or whatever politically correct name would make them available, for free?

Because it's not politic, that's why.
"What would we tell the paying guests?" har-har. Hypocrisy exposed.
Which brings us back to EGO and TERRITORIALITY.

If the very Appalachian Trail is embodied by the long-distance and thru hiker, the AMC is doing nothing to help nurture that body.

SGT Rock

08-27-2006, 02:09

The day hiker and the section hiker embody the trail. Anyone that thinks otherwise is ignoring the rest of the world because of a narrow view of the AT community. There are more day hikers than section hikers. More section hikers than trail maintainers, and more trail maintainers than thru-hikers.

It would be llike sayinig drag racers embody the American driver on the highway.

Darwin again

08-27-2006, 02:17

emerald

08-27-2006, 02:22

Excuse me, where does the line form?

I understand perfectly well the difference between hard trail (much of what I hiked today) and stupid trail (about 60 miles of the AT in PA between the 501 shelter and the PA/NJ line).

I would like minnesotasmith to explain stupid trail (about 60 miles of the AT in PA between the 501 shelter and the PA/NJ line).

I don't believe I've ever heard the adjective stupid used in conjunction with trail. Now I've heard of PUDs and similiar acronyms, but never stupid trail--that's entirely new to me.

emerald

08-27-2006, 02:33

Anyone hungry or have you all now gone to bed? Maybe I should too. This could be good tomorrow.

fiddlehead

08-27-2006, 03:46

Excuse me, where does the line form?

I would like minnesotasmith to explain stupid trail (about 60 miles of the AT in PA between the 501 shelter and the PA/NJ line).

I don't believe I've ever heard the adjective stupid used in conjunction with trail. Now I've heard of PUDs and similiar acronyms, but never stupid trail--that's entirely new to me.

Yeah, he's talking about my neck of the woods which i've hiked many times. The mtns in the area are very rocky. i doubt MS will get his way to bulldoze them flat, so who is he going to blame about those rocks? The glaciers that put them there? Or perhaps it's the fact that the trail sometimes loses the ridge to go near a water source that he finds "stupid" I grew up on those trails and think they're pretty nice and even take a little pride in the fact that i've learned how to rock hop them since i'm 12 and find out that wimps still are complaining about the rocks. The rocks aren't leaving. Perhaps he should.

Way too much complaining. Why hike if you can't deal with nature?
The trick is to learn how to live in harmony with it.

emerald

08-27-2006, 04:21

MinnesotaSmith: "Oh, and yes, [shelters] over 0.3 miles from the AT should in most cases be helicoptered to within 0.1 mile of the AT."

Eagle's Nest Shelter is 0.3 off of the A.T. It was constructed off-site and air lifted there, not nearer the A.T., because it lies just within Weiser State Forest at its present location. Any nearer the A.T., it would be on PA State Game Lands.

Whew! I guess BMECC did okay by MinnesotaSmith with the site that was chosen for that shelter.:eek:

Topcat

08-27-2006, 05:19

MS, you ask the question as to why it is ok to walk on the rocks but not sleep on them, the answer is, its not. You are only supposed to walk on the designated trail in the alpine zones of the Whites. This is to preserve a very delicate bio-zone where plants take a long time to grow and recover from damage.

YOu are about to enter a beautiful area, why dont you just walk through it and enjoy it and quit bitching about an $8 charge for a tent platform.

By the by, say goodbye to switchbacks for a while. Hope your up for walking straight up and down for a couple of weeks.

Lone Wolf

08-27-2006, 07:21

rickb

08-27-2006, 08:21

Not to digress MS, but here are a couple suggestions that might help you to maximize your enjoyment of the Whites:

1. Get above treeline before 7AM when possible. Even though you are in the most heavily used section of AT on a summer wekend, you wiill have the beauty all to yourself. You wont see any tents or such either.

2. If the shelter at Guyot is full when you get there, don't panic or yell at the caretaker. All will work out fine.

3. Consider callling for a reservation to stay at the AMC's Shapleigh Bunkhouse in Crawford Notch. Check out the photo exhibit and observe families enjoying the area. Be sure to tell them you an ATC Members and ask if that entitles you to the small AMC mmber discount.

4. Stay at Nauman Tentsite. This will allow you to get above treeline befor the crowds, and also set you up perfectly for the next day.

5. Take a map and consider that while the RMC facilities at the Perch look very far off Ttail, the walk to them is as beautiful as anywhere you will go. Most af the way is above treeline.

6. Only stay at a hut if you want too. Many AT Hikers don't, but I am told that those who do have often enjoyed the experience. Regardless, sighn the registers-- its cool reading your comments 20 years later.

Or not, just some ideas.

Jack Tarlin

08-27-2006, 09:01

Question for Mr. Smith:

Building and placing shelters isn't as easy as you think, and it costs about $6,000 an hour to keep a chopper flying in the Whites.

You gonna help pay for that?

I could also ask you to tell us about all the Trail maintenance you've done on this trip, shelters you helped construct, privy pits dug, trail work you helped on, etc., but I'm not feeling mean this morning.

What I'm saying, Smith, is that a very great deal of time, money, and sweat goes into building these facilities, and the Trail clubs have lots better things to do with their time and money than build dozens of new shelters.

I seem to recall hearing that you've sheltered something like 2/3 of your trip. Your dependence on the shelter system does not mean that the Trail clubs should embark on a massive construction drive.....most folks, believe it or not, prefer to camp out, which is sorta the reason most of them are out there.

Think outside the box!

minnesotasmith

08-27-2006, 09:31

Only a complete ignoramus would suggest putting a shelter in a totally exposed area that has some of the world's worst weather. Even the enclosed high huts like Lakes Of The Clouds close around September 15 because of weather.

You have just made a heck of a case for it not being appropriate to have the AT run through that section, then. Out of curiousity, was that your intent?

I know you find it hard to believe that countless highly knowledgeable people who have hiked and worked in this area for decades know more than a neophite like yourself who has never been there, but still considers himself the expert, not on just this area, but of everything related to the A.T.

I don't have to be like you to be capable of thinking. In fact, it looks like that might on occasion be an impediment.

mrc237

08-27-2006, 09:37

I remember once I spotted a hiker getting water off the side of the trail about 50 yds. I remembered the spring as being a seep at best, when he caught up with me later in the PM he bitched and complained about the condition of the spring etc saying the local club shoud be ashamed etc. I said to him you are the local club right now what did you do to improve the the conditions of the spring you just left for the hikers behind you? Do I have to post his reply? I don't think so! The trail is the trail ---deal with it!

Lone Wolf

08-27-2006, 09:38

Sounds like MSmith is slackpacking the Whites anyway so he shouldn't be whining.

mrc237

08-27-2006, 09:46

Hey Wolf, u r a gud spellar!

Topcat

08-27-2006, 09:47

MS, it isnt supposed to be easy. The hardest day that i ever had on the trail with a group of kids was in that area and it is also the most memorable. 4 years later, that group still talk about it when discussing backpacking to new kids hiking for the first time. It is completely appropriate for the trail to run there.

minnesotasmith

08-27-2006, 09:54

Jack Tarlin said:

I could also ask you to tell us about all the Trail maintenance you've done on this trip, shelters you helped construct, privy pits dug, trail work you helped on, etc., but I'm not feeling mean this morning.

I have a different role on the AT (and path for my life) than that of trail maintainer, and it is not a wrong role or path.

First, thruhikers (which I am doing my best to become) electrify the imagination of the public about the AT in a way that a retiree spending occasional weekends with pruning shears on part of the AT near where he lives never will. We attract no end of interest to it, often resulting in support for the AT. Earl S. certainly did this in a big way, and I would say you have done so extensively as well, intended or not. I have already seen this first-hand among my own family and friends (most of whom had never so much as heard of the AT before this year), and among the many, many day-hikers and tourists I have served as a momentary tour guide and source of information. There are numerous, numerous people I have spoken to this year who are far more interested in the AT after a chance engaging conversation with me than they were prior. These are not only as hikers other than thru- and potential thruhikers, but people willing to act as trail angels, or who just live near the Trail and didn't know it.

Second, by my life (other than hiking) and work, I have done and will in the future do things that indirectly support the Trail. In my work, I help find the petroleum that trail maintainers use to power their vehicles to get to trailheads to do maintenance, to run their chainsaws and weedwhackers, to say nothing of that petroleum making the entire economy and society they depend on for their money and very lives continue. Unlike so many middle-class people I meet, I will have a family, with children being created of it to continue the nation, which the Trail certainly depends upon. (Once people like us are gone from here, there will be no AT, a subject for another time.) My children will find that their lives (at least while they are minors) will consist of more than junk food, TV, video games, and bad (e.g., public) schools that teach little of worth. They would certainly be more likely to become hikers and lovers of the Trail than most children, although that would certainly be ultimately their choice.

I've said enough here on this. I've got gear to go through while my knee recovers from Mt. Moosilauke. The Whites are calling, an intensification of the challenge of the AT -- and of its rewards.

Think outside the box![/quote]

minnesotasmith

08-27-2006, 10:00

Topcat said: MS, you ask the question as to why it is ok to walk on the rocks but not sleep on them, the answer is, its not. You are only supposed to walk on the designated trail in the alpine zones of the Whites. This is to preserve a very delicate bio-zone where plants take a long time to grow and recover from damage.

Either A) no one should be in those areas at all (e.g., no AT in the Whites) or B) I should then be able to freely camp on the Trail itself most anywhere in the Whites. Which of those two inescapable alternatives do you then support? ("None of the above" is not an option here.)

minnesotasmith

08-27-2006, 10:03

Sounds like MSmith is slackpacking the Whites anyway so he shouldn't be whining.

My slacking in the Whites is done. I hike out from the notch 10 miles from here tomorrow, when my knee is better. I have been told that the first day won't be that hard, but pretty much every day thereafter in the White Mtns. will be quite a challenge.

Nean

08-27-2006, 10:05

Maybe MS should raft the Whites:-?
Cry me a river :eek:
I've only done the Whites a few times, but each time was "special" ;) Only once did I feel that the croo was a little less than cool. :(

Intelligence, w/o common sense, is a curse.

Topcat

08-27-2006, 10:09

Actually, none of the above is an option, as it is with everything else. If you read the regs, there are many areas where you can legallly camp at no charge. You may have to hike off the trail a ways, but that is ok. Good planning can reduce inconvenience as well. Just dont camp withing 200 feet of a water source or trail head and stay below tree line and a quarter mile past or before a shelter. Oh, and leave the place you sleep as you found it and all is good.

Biloxi

08-27-2006, 10:10

this thread has become retarded, 69 pages..whats the allure of ms anyway.? slow, bitchy,whinny,complaining,zeroing,slacking.etc...e tc... I got it we could replace the trail with moving sidewalks with escalaters where there is a rise in elevation over 25 feet and install heat and running water in all shelters and every 8.0 miles build a nice holidayinn express and ofcourse those nasty shelters would be for our much needed and assigned sherpas.."wouldn't want to carry gear" that stuff is heavy..my god come on..hike,hurt,sweat,camp,be cold, hungry,wet. what ever it is a choice to be there if you hate it ..GO HOME. but I am amazed at all the attention he gets..for what? just my 2 cents

Topcat

08-27-2006, 10:13

i found the croo at Galehead hut so helpfull 4 years ago that I bought the shirt to remember them by. Also, every caretaker of the tent sites i stayed at were great company and sources of info. Like i said before, my favorite part of the trail so far.

rickb

08-27-2006, 10:14

It gives a facinating insight into the world of slack-packing yellow blazers.

Jack Tarlin

08-27-2006, 10:18

minnesotasmith

08-27-2006, 10:23

Topcat said: MS, it isnt supposed to be easy. The hardest day that i ever had on the trail with a group of kids was in that area and it is also the most memorable. 4 years later, that group still talk about it when discussing backpacking to new kids hiking for the first time. It is completely appropriate for the trail to run there.

Steep slopes in rugged terrain with beauty are one thing, whether you are talking about wondrous views from a summit (as I was privileged to have yesterday) or the cliffsides I saw transformed into crystal ice palaces I hiked by the day of the big ice storm in the Smokies last March.

However, a rotting unsafe bridge, a partly-burnt rotting picnic table, a section of trail routed out of hilly beautiful woods into endless anonymous pointless flat swamp with no views but 5' radius of cattails, a stretch of trail with numerous unidentified side trails crisscrossing it with <1/6th the normal # of blazes, all of which are a double-digit # of years old, a piece of trail (as I saw at 19E last March) that is so covered by litter (we're talking a pickup-truck load here on a 20' stretch) that a hiker would have to bushwack around it -- how are these uplifting to the spirit?

I'll willingly work at scaling any slope while hiking I think I can go up without getting killed. If I neglect to look up often enough that I miss the shelter turnoff on a rainy night, that's my fault and a lesson to me. But, trail that is simply needlessly incomplete (blazes taken through terrain where nothing else was done to make a route into a trail, bypassing where an actual trail route was followed before) chaps my sense of trail order, and I admit it.

Nean

08-27-2006, 10:32

However, a rotting unsafe bridge, a partly-burnt rotting picnic table, a section of trail routed out of hilly beautiful woods into endless anonymous pointless flat swamp with no views but 5' radius of cattails, a stretch of trail with numerous unidentified side trails crisscrossing it with <1/6th the normal # of blazes, all of which are a double-digit # of years old, a piece of trail (as I saw at 19E last March) that is so covered by litter (we're talking a pickup-truck load here on a 20' stretch) that a hiker would have to bushwack around it -- how are these uplifting to the spirit?

I'll willingly work at scaling any slope while hiking I think I can go up without getting killed. If I neglect to look up often enough that I miss the shelter turnoff on a rainy night, that's my fault and a lesson to me. But, trail that is simply needlessly incomplete (blazes taken through terrain where nothing else was done to make a route into a trail, bypassing where an actual trail route was followed before) chaps my sense of trail order, and I admit it.

That's cool MS,:-? so,what are you going to do about it? :confused:
Need me to send you a life jacket?:D

minnesotasmith

08-27-2006, 10:34

It gives a facinating insight into the world of slack-packing yellow blazers.

I have slackpacked well under 5% of my hike. That means over 95% of the time (about 6 months worth so far) I have hiked carrying a pack many other thrus volunteer they are incapable of carrying a mile.

Further, I am not a yellow-blazer. I have not missed so much as a mile of the AT to "I don't feel like doing that nasty section". As soon as I summit Katahdin in my race to beat winter effectively closing my access for the year to that beautiful mountain, I head right back to the Kent-Hanover stretch I put off as a reluctant reaction to being ill for so long. Since I did the Approach Trail, which many people such as myself deem to be part of the AT, I will have done more miles when done than the hikers who jumped ahead and started at Springer.:cool:

Topcat

08-27-2006, 10:35

You had better be willing to do some hand over hand scrambling soon.

minnesotasmith

08-27-2006, 10:48

Smitty, you were a little rough on the old guys with pruning shears.

For starters, your ability to "electrify the imagination" of so many people is entirely dependent on the work of these volunteers you treat so cavalierly.

You need to find out more about maintainers.

First off, they're not all retirees. They come in all shapes, sizes, and ages. And their work is not done on occasional weekends: Some of these guiys have been at it for decades. And there's more to their work than strolling in the woods snipping twigs with puning shears: I once saw Bob People and a few other guys take about five hours to hand-saw an enormous blowdown that was blocking the Trail in a wilderness area. So don't belittle the work these guys do, Smith. There's more to it than you think. Ever built a rock staircase, Smith? Or dug a priivy pit? Believe me, the stuff you take for granted every day did not get there without a greal deal of very hard work.

Another reason you should be a bit more respectful is that every hour these guys are out there, Smith, they could be somewhere else---doing stuff at home, spending time with their families, lolling at the beach, playing a round of golf, watching a Saturday afternoon ball game. But no, they're out there all year long, working on the Trail, making the Trail better, and in many cases, preserving its very existence. Oh, did I mention they could also be out there hiking instead of maintaining?

These folks bust their ass for the Trail and for those who hike it, so your flippant comments were more than a little offensive.

You started this post by saying you have a different life goal than being a maintainer. Fine. But you could, if only for a minute, be a bit more grateful for the work they do.

I'm delighted that you've made it to New Hampshire, Smith. Months ago, I was one of your strongest defenders when jerks were betting how many days you'd last on the Trail. But take a minute and instead of complaining about conditions on the Trail (lack of shelters, or poor water sources, etc.) take a minute and give thanks to the folks who helped you get where you are. Except in a few rare cases, just about everything you've seen on your journey that wasn't placed there by God was put there by a volunteer, and
without the folks you consider to be doddering old-timers with pruning shears, well, you'd still be in Georgia. Or more likely, you'd be home.

I respect the maintainers and what they do. If I came across otherwise, that was not my intention. (Practically every one who was a volunteer not doing a college internship I've ever seen was old enough to be collecting Social Security, though.)

I was not a stranger to hard physical work before starting my thruhike, either. For example, I spent a complete winter in NE MN (40 miles from Canada) with my only heat source a woodstove that I fueled with wood I cut with hand (nonpower) tools. Shovels, slingblades, sledgehammers, mauls, axes (splitting and not) -- I've used all these day in and day out at times.

I just want the maintainers to return that respect to hikers. It should not be considered necessary to be a trail maintainer to have one's considered judgement on the Trail be considered of equal or greater weight. The real irony is that most of the maintainers (this is a guess; if I'm wrong, feel free to say so) are not former thrus or long-section hikers, so will have mostly seen a considerably smaller %age of the Trail than a passing thruhiker. The latter will thus arguably often have a breadth of first-hand recent experience WRT how the Trail is and can be that the maintainers will not have, and IMO the maintainers should respect that competence.

minnesotasmith

08-27-2006, 10:50

You had better be willing to do some hand over hand scrambling soon.

When contemplating the remaining 80+ miles of the Whites, I am very much put in mind of what a SOBO put in the register @ Hexacuba Shelter: "It is so nice to again walk without using my hands".

minnesotasmith

08-27-2006, 10:55

Nean said: That's cool MS,:-? so,what are you going to do about it? :confused:

I'll find within me (strength, endurance, intelligence) what it takes to get through that section of the Trail, as I have done for over 1400 miles of the AT so far this year. What else would I do? I have set for myself hiking every mile of the AT this year, and I don't quit a goal easily once I undertake it.

Lone Wolf

08-27-2006, 11:00

mweinstone

08-27-2006, 11:05

i love you anyway.

The Old Fhart

08-27-2006, 11:10

Darwin again-“Only a cruel and callous egomaniac would call a hiker who hadn't experienced the Whites a complete ingnoramus. We're all born ignorant and is not MS and his hike a metaphor for us all?” I believe what I called MS was an “ignoramus,” I’m not sure what an “ingnoramus” is.:D I believe it was Will Rogers who was talking about MS when he said: “He was born ignorant and he has been going downhill ever since.” And lastly, no, MS isn’t a metaphor for all of us. He is a metaphor for the worst of us; for how not to hike the trail; for how not to treat those who provide the trail he walks on or the shelter he sleeps in. He is looked upon as the weird cousin who would be locked in a room when company came.

Darwin again-“If long-distance hikers make up such a miniscule percentage of the users of the AT in the Whites, why doesn't the ever-generous AMC just allow them to stay in those big stone buildings, huts, shelters, or whatever politically correct name would make them available, for free?” Wrong again. Thru-hiker do a work for stay, quid pro quo, they don’t stay free. I wouldn’t expect you to know that because you’ve displayed no trail knowledge whatsoever, even though you show all the symptoms of MS, a neurological disease that manifests itself with delusions of grandeur and the belief that any off-the-wall idea you have is an instant “fact”.

Fiddlehead’-“I grew up on those trails and think they're pretty nice and even take a little pride in the fact that i've learned how to rock hop them since i'm 12 and find out that wimps still are complaining about the rocks. The rocks aren't leaving. Perhaps he should.” Right on!!:clap Both times I went through PA I thought, “WOW”, look at the fantastic amount of work the maintaining clubs have done here. Given the area they have to work with, they do an amazing job. And to top it off, they are volunteers, they don’t even get paid! Even Earl had a lot to do with building at least 2 shelters that I visited.

Minnesotasmith-“You have just made a heck of a case for it not being appropriate to have the AT run through that section, then. Out of curiousity, was that your intent?” I realize you have to be slapped in the side of the head to get your attention, but you were talking about putting a shelter in a spot where none belongs and I merely pointed it out, sorry you missed the obvious, although it comes as no surprise. So now after thousands of thru-hikers have done the trail, most commenting on the beauty of the area, an ant wants the trail rerouted because it is going to be too hard for him and he feels weak-kneed. Grow a pair MS.

Minnesotasmith-“Either A) no one should be in those areas at all (e.g., no AT in the Whites) or B) I should then be able to freely camp on the Trail itself most anywhere in the Whites. Which of those two inescapable alternatives do you then support? ("None of the above" is not an option here.)” Spoken like a true egomaniac. The only choice is to hike the trail like thousands of others have done and quit the incessant whining.

Jack Tarlin

08-27-2006, 11:10

Skyline

08-27-2006, 11:11

Jack Tarlin

08-27-2006, 11:22

Geez, that's a kinda harsh comparison.

After all, the Taliban don't complain about their nation's terrain and weather all the time, and they have lots more respect for women. :D

The Old Fhart

08-27-2006, 11:24

Baltimore Jack-"After all, the Taliban don't complain about their nation's terrain and weather all the time, and they have lots more respect for women." That has to be the best post of the whole thread!!! :D

Skyline

08-27-2006, 11:43

Geez, that's a kinda harsh comparison.

After all, the Taliban don't complain about their nation's terrain and weather all the time, and they have lots more respect for women. :D

So true......

emerald

08-27-2006, 12:36

You might be surprised to learn just how many A.T. maintainers are hikers too. The person in charge of trail maintenance with my local club is a 2000 miler.

Darwin again

08-27-2006, 12:38

Well, Jebus Mahoney. I guess that's the end of the thread. Someone Played the terrorism card....

Fhart: MS has forgotten more about petroleum exploration and most other subjects than you'll ever know. Think of him the next time you switch flip a light switch or start your car. Beyond that, you are incoherant. Have a nice day.

If you're not with MS, you're against him. NO middle ground, NO PRISONERS! Taliban indeed, even here, on a hiking thread.

Sheeple, indeed. Folks here gripe about MS's views because he has the guts to express them in typically American fashion. His type of honesty that has been submerged in favor of being politically corect for the sake moving smoothly through a debt-based economy and borrowing a piece of the American pie. The chickens are roosting in terms of oil and Minnesota Smith is one of those people who are trying to help his countrymen see beyond the mess. For that alone, he deserves respect. But there are none so blind as the ignorant. You old griping curmugeons won't be around to see peak oil, but his kids and my kids will. He has his eyes on a different prize and understands what's coming.

So think globally and don't compare fellow hikers, especially ones who are trying to save your fat consuming butts, to the Taliban. That's the stupidest thing I've seen here so far, besides Fhart's blithering laundry lists of dull invective. Strictly adolescent. Enough said.

MS is admired because he's out there living a dream.
Live and let live. Cripes, people.
http://www.oilposter.org/index.html

weary

08-27-2006, 13:02

Sorry if you thought I was a bit hard on you, but you don't think maintainers respect hikers?

Well, sheesh, Smitty.....if that were so, then why, pray tell, why the **** do you think they're out there, eh?

And your contention that thru-hikers know more about what Trail conditions are like, and know more about what a Trail should look or be like-----well, that's nonsense.
There's a fundamental conflict between thru hikers and most maintainers. Maintainers tend to be weekend hikers working on the trails they love. The goal of a weekender is a challenging day and a half hike. They don't want an easy trail, but a trail that will challenge them, and show them some secret beauty spots.

Thru hikers tend to seek the opposite. The easiest way to get between Springer and Katahdin with a few good views interspersed along the way.

Those PUDS we complain about are what makes a trail interesting to the guy out for a day or a week near their homes.

Since most AT users are weekenders, the maintainers are right to emphasize their desires, not the special concerns of the tiny minority who attempt a thru hike.

Weary

SGT Rock

08-27-2006, 13:09

I just want the maintainers to return that respect to hikers. It should not be considered necessary to be a trail maintainer to have one's considered judgement on the Trail be considered of equal or greater weight. The real irony is that most of the maintainers (this is a guess; if I'm wrong, feel free to say so) are not former thrus or long-section hikers, so will have mostly seen a considerably smaller %age of the Trail than a passing thruhiker. The latter will thus arguably often have a breadth of first-hand recent experience WRT how the Trail is and can be that the maintainers will not have, and IMO the maintainers should respect that competence.

Well on that score you are wrong. Lots of trail maintainers are long distance section hikers and some are even multiple hike thru-hikers. Seems like they figured out where the help is needed - WORK to keep the trail as good as it is and to make it better in some ways. Not complaints about what the trail is not. If the trail isn't what you want, maybe you should hike across England - I hear they have places to eat and sleep that are very convinent.

Back to the point. The inverse is actually more accurate: most thru-hikers and long distance section hikers are not trail maintainers.

As such there are those that think that all sections of the trail can be maintained to the standards or built up to the standards of their favorite parts of the trail. Very unrealistic expectation. But some are so convinced they are smarter and/or have it all figured out. Sort of like politics or sports. Anyway...

The fact is parts of trail need to be re-routed to other areas because when they were laid out factors such as erosion and suitability of terrain were not always taken into account when they were laid. Putting up a bunch of shelters or investing a lot of labor in these areas is a waste of time because it would only be "thrown away" later when the trail is re-routed.

Add to that the need to simply keep maintain and clean what already exists.
Nature and hikers do their best to keep maintainers simply playing catch up. The average maintainer has a life besides working on a trail 40 hours a week and what time they do get is mostly spent doing this work. Big projects are large scale coordinated group efforts that often bring in people that drive 8 hours or more one way to do the work for a couple of days before heading home. And given this, not everyone is jumping at the chance for large work projects just so some guys can save 5 minutes to put up a tent and feel secure in 3 wooden walls. Most big trips I have worked are re-locations of larger sections of the trail.

And it isn't like there is this huge pool of labor and money to make the long distance hikers dream come true and turn the trail into a Wal-Mart chain store of trails and shelters with the same amenities and capacity at ever shelter and ever shelter a convenient 8 miles apart. Some groups like Hardcore and that one near Pearisburg (forgive me for not remembering the name) do their best to try and rope some long distance hikers into putting their money where their mouth is. But many suffer from a lack of new blood because many long distance hikers finish the trail and never put anything back into for future hikers.

So as you have it all figured out on how to fix the trail up for the long distance, entitlement seeking, everything for nothing, self centered hiker who needs more to make his hike comfy and more fun - well join a maintenance group and start knocking yourself out. In fact, since you seem to have that part figured out, join the AMC. They need you more than they know.

Jack Tarlin

08-27-2006, 13:17

And what's more, they not only NEED Smitty......they DESERVE him!! :D

The Old Fhart

08-27-2006, 13:28

Darwin again-"Fhart: MS has forgotten more about petroleum exploration and most other subjects than you'll ever know. "Just when I thought you'd said some of the dumbest things about thru-hiking I've ever heard, you dig down deep and top them all! That is the most irrelevant, farcical, and just plain stupid thing I've heard in a while. You can't cope with facts so your only come-back is along the lines of: "my dad can whip your dad!" You ought to take your stand-up comedy routine on the road.:D

ed bell

08-27-2006, 13:32

- well join a maintenance group and start knocking yourself out. In fact, since you seem to have that part figured out, join the AMC. They need you more than they know.I have a feeling that ain't happening. I wonder if he joined the ATC?:-?

Darwin again

08-27-2006, 13:32

Hey. I'm just sayin.
You a rocket scientist, Fhart?
MS is a a scientist by profession.

I'm just sayin.

Darwin again

08-27-2006, 13:58

Just when I thought you'd said some of the dumbest things about thru-hiking I've ever heard, you dig down deep and top them all! That is the most irrelevant, farcical, and just plain stupid thing I've heard in a while. You can't cope with facts so your only come-back is along the lines of: "my dad can whip your dad!" You ought to take your stand-up comedy routine on the road.:D

Peace, brother.
Go have a muffin or something. Check your meds.
Calm down.

I posted here and it was you who popped back and attacked me for it. If you don't like what I have to say, swallow it up and move on, but don't attack me personally for being part of a community discussion.

Maybe you just need someone at whom to light your brain farts from the safety of your keyboard. Lay off of me and go after someone who gives a half a cup of poop. Really, you're addled. Leave me alone. Better yet, KMA.

Nowhere along the Appalachian Trail or at any shelter or hostel or motel catering to hikers have I ever heard a hiker call another hiker an ignoramus. EVER.

This is simply unacceptable behavior, no matter who you think you are and how profound you sense of entitlement. I'm certain you lack the guts to behave this way in person.

So go ahead, call me dumb.
It reveals more about you than me.
And Have a Great Sunday!

Jack Tarlin

08-27-2006, 14:10

Actually, Darwin, I've never heard anyone on the Trail call someone an ignoramus, either.

But only cuz most hikers aren't familiar with the word.

But I've sure heard people use colorfol language to describe other hikers, and sometimes they even do it to each other's faces.

And actually, O.F., who is a very stand-up guy, actually IS one of the few folks who'd tell someone off in person.

People call each other idiots on WB all the time, Darwin. I get called that several times a week, and usually be the same people. I frequently get called worse. I can even recall some colorful invective that came flying my way from YOU.

So lighten up, bro. O.F. is actually a great guy who happens to have some very strong opinions. You'd probably like him in person.

And in closing, I gotta say that MS might be a scientist, and perhaps he's a brilliant one, but that hasn't prevented him from saying some pretty outrageously dumb things here. I like the guy a great deal; if I didn't, I wouldn't have entertained him in my home a few days ago; but honestly, he has said some pretty whacked-out things here. All O.F. did was point this out.

In any case, it's too nice a Sunday afternoon to bicker it away. I'm going back to my Times.

SGT Rock

08-27-2006, 14:16

I vouch for OF too. He is a stand up guy.

Dances with Mice

08-27-2006, 14:19

MS is a a scientist by profession.And you're impressed?! Then you're a fool.

The Old Fhart

08-27-2006, 14:22

DWM(to Darwin again)-"And you're impressed?! Then you're a fool."At least you didn't use any really big words that confuse him!:D

Darwin again

08-27-2006, 14:50

People call each other idiots on WB all the time, Darwin. I get called that several times a week, and usually be the same people. I frequently get called worse. I can even recall some colorful invective that came flying my way from YOU.

So lighten up, bro. O.F. is actually a great guy who happens to have some very strong opinions. You'd probably like him in person.

And in closing, I gotta say that MS might be a scientist, and perhaps he's a brilliant one, but that hasn't prevented him from saying some pretty outrageously dumb things here. I like the guy a great deal; if I didn't, I wouldn't have entertained him in my home a few days ago; but honestly, he has said some pretty whacked-out things here. All O.F. did was point this out.

In any case, it's too nice a Sunday afternoon to bicker it away. I'm going back to my Times.

Roger that. I agree with all of the above.
I suppose threads like this are what happens when you give monkeys typwriters atached to phone lines. True enough, I might like OF in person, but he needs to stop being a dickhead, unless he can't help himself, then I understand, because I've suffered like that myself.

MS said some pretty wacked things at my dinner table, too, but I still like him. I told him I disagreed and took him to task. My feeling is that the Trail is working on him and I hold out hope for positive understandings. I don't fault a man for exploring ideas or fault another man for poking holes in my ideas if they turn out to be, um, how you say, stoopid.

I like to think that I've been marginally civil with you, Jack. :cool: Or at least never called you any names... Colorful invective, always.

And as for what DWM said about me being wowed by a scientist, nada. I'm not impressed. Knowledge doesn't excuse espousing dysfunctional social theory. But MS's professional focus is worlds more salient and important than most of ours. He's looking for answers to questions most people haven't even got their minds around yet. :D

Whatever. Point taken, Jack. I got no beef with the fart.
http://www.oilposter.org/index.html

Darwin again

08-27-2006, 14:52

At least you didn't use any really big words that confuse him!:D

I challenge you to a duel, old man! :eek:

That is, unless you're chicken. Bawk! Bawk!

freefall

08-27-2006, 14:56

Oh, and yes, the ones over 0.3 miles from the AT should in most cases be helicoptered to within 0.1 mile of the AT. I'd much rather drop my pack and hike downhill to a water source (hiking back uphill with water but sans pack) than having to haul my pack most of a mile off the Trail to a shelter that could easily have been located right on it (i.e., the 666-mile shelter in VA). This opinion about appropriate shelter locations is widely held by hikers, going by shelter register entries I've read over the last 6+ months.
Though I felt the Sarver Hollow Shelter (the 666-mile shelter in VA) was one hella hike off the trail at the end of a very long day, it was an absolute perfect spot for a shelter with a good boxed spring. Not to mention a very nicely built shelter to boot. And I spent an hour the next morning exploring the old homestead that is there. They could have put the shelter up on the ridgeline, it is fairly flat, but they would have had to move some of the zombie nests. I wouldn't want to disturb a zombie nest.
I found that at the beginning, down in GA, NC, TN, I flat out wouldn't go more than .2 off the trail for a shelter. But by central VA, what did and extra .3 matter in a 20 mile day? I even went to the Devil's Racecourse shelter in MD. Didn't stay there but met a rogue maintainer there that treated me to pizza. And I went to the Blackburn Center, which is a healthy .3 off the trail.

mweinstone

08-27-2006, 15:14

tonight on coast to coast with george nory and art bell , linda moultin howel presents new evedince that minnisota smith is the anti christ.

The Old Fhart

08-27-2006, 15:20

Darwin again-"I suppose threads like this are what happens when you give monkeys typwriters atached to phone lines." Actually my high speed network consists of 4 computers, one dedicated to monitoring my rubidium frequency standard that is compared to the atomic clocks on the GPS system. And I do know something of scientists from working in the electronics industry or maintaining the instrumentation at the Mt Washington Weather Observatory. A scientist is one who uses the scientific method to solve problems and MS has shown none of the characteristics of a scientist as he ignores facts and jumps to illogical conclusions as even you have admitted.

I also suppose that if you give evolving species typewriters, they will start calling others “dickheads”. I will have to decline your humorous offer for a duel. As someone once told me: "never engage in a battle of wits when you know your opponent is unarmed.":D

Darwin again

08-27-2006, 15:42

Actually my high speed network consists of 4 computers, one dedicated to monitoring my rubidium frequency standard that is compared to the atomic clocks on the GPS system. And I do know something of scientists from working in the electronics industry or maintaining the instrumentation at the Mt Washington Weather Observatory. A scientist is one who uses the scientific method to solve problems and MS has shown none of the characteristics of a scientist as he ignores facts and jumps to illogical conclusions as even you have admitted.

I also suppose that if you give evolving species typewriters, they will start calling others “dickheads”. I will have to decline your humorous offer for a duel. As someone once told me: "never engage in a battle of wits when you know your opponent is unarmed.":D

See? You just can't stop yourself, can you?
Your dickheadedness is like a compulsion...
You need all that hardware for a post like that? I guess so, as long at it's HIGH SPEED, which enables you to make a fool of yourself more quickly.
You probably use Windows too. Pfffft.
My dog monitors my rubidium frequency standard.

A Powerbook G4 is all I need here.

Impressive pasttime, that Mt. Washington gig. But you don't gotta be a weatherman to know from which direction the wind bloviates...

BAWK! BAWK! Old Chicken.
http://www.oilposter.org/index.html

Biloxi

08-27-2006, 16:12

:eek: dickheadedness???? :banana

Dances with Mice

08-27-2006, 16:14

And as for what DWM said about me being wowed by a scientist, nada. I'm not impressed. That expains why you didn't mention it.

But MS's professional focus is worlds more salient and important than most of ours. He's looking for answers to questions most people haven't even got their minds around yet. And his focus is on doing exactly what right now? BTW, Sparky, "looking for answers to questions most people haven't even got(ten) their minds around yet" is the job description of all scientists. Performance standards are set a bit higher than 'looking'.

http://www.oilposter.org/index.html So the Y2K guys learned not to set a specific date, eh?

The Old Fhart

08-27-2006, 16:30

Darwin again-"You need all that hardware for a post like that?" Nope, I never said I did, that was your uninformed conclusion-try again.

Darwin again-"My dog monitors my rubidium frequency standard."Glad to see someone at your house has some intelligence.:D And I do believe your dog knows more about rubidium standards than you, this is probably the second time you're seen the words.

Darwin again-"A Powerbook G4 is all I need here.Nice doorstop. One of the machines on my network is a G5 with dual processors decked out for graphics design.

SGT Rock

08-27-2006, 16:34

BTW, you know we are about 40 posts over the old record holder for longest thread on WhiteBlaze at this point.

rickb

08-27-2006, 16:36

one dedicated to monitoring my rubidium frequency standard that is compared to the atomic clocks on the GPS system

Serious question, OF:

Why?

ed bell

08-27-2006, 16:36

BTW, you know we are about 40 posts over the old record holder for longest thread on WhiteBlaze at this point.Noticed earlier today that Whiteblaze has just passed the 10,000 member mark.:sun

SGT Rock

08-27-2006, 16:39

We set our standards on the frivolous. Nice to know we can meet those expectations.

Dances with Mice

08-27-2006, 16:47

BTW, you know we are about 40 posts over the old record holder for longest thread on WhiteBlaze at this point.No!! I didn't know that!

I'd like to thank my parents and ... and all the little people who made it possible to win this award. I share it with all of you.

Going forward, I'd like to set a thread length standard that no one could ever hope to break. We beat the Warren thread, now we need to grind its face into the ground. And I mean dig a hole for it with an orange trowel, burn any remnants in the campfire, carry out anything left and throw it away in a gas station restroom trash can.

We're Number One! We're Number One! We're Number One!

Thank you for your support.

Pacific Tortuga

08-27-2006, 16:51

[quote=Dances with Mice]No!! I didn't know that!

I'd like to thank my parents and ... and all the little people who made it possible to win this award. I share it with all of you.

Going forward, I'd like to set a thread length standard that no one could ever hope to break. We beat the Warren thread, now we need to grind its face into the ground. And I mean dig a hole for it with an orange trowel, burn any remnants in the campfire, carry out anything left and throw it away in a gas station restroom trash can.

We're Number One! We're Number One! We're Number One!

Thank you for your support.[/quot

This was a bigger under-dog than the first Rocky .....con-grats all.

Dances with Mice

08-27-2006, 17:00

This was a bigger under-dog than the first Rocky .....con-grats all.Yeah! No flaming allowed for the rest of the day, it's Party Time!

My wife's out of town and I got this leftover bottle of Jameson's. So here's an old, old Irish toast: "May you buy the next round".

Darwin again

08-27-2006, 17:05

That expains why you didn't mention it.

And his focus is on doing exactly what right now? BTW, Sparky, "looking for answers to questions most people haven't even got(ten) their minds around yet" is the job description of all scientists. Performance standards are set a bit higher than 'looking'.

So the Y2K guys learned not to set a specific date, eh?

Wow, this thread is full of hard-fisted tough-guy know-it-all keyboarders.

1) Go ahead. Laugh. MS knows the oil's never running out, he's just pulling your leg. Keep repeating this to yourself: "Just pretend everything's OK."

2) The specific date on the poster is 2010, Mouser. So far, Sweden is the only government to have publicly acknowledged peak oil.

3) Links:
http://haveskunk.blogspot.com/2006/08/peak-oil-part-one.html
http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/11382
http://www.moneyweek.com/file/16933/prepare-for-peak-oil-says-energy-expert.html
http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Opinion/Editorials/opnOPN80081606.htm
http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/topstories.aspx?ID=BD4A243450
http://www.delmarvanow.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060730/NEWS01/607300311/1002
http://www.oilposter.org/index.html
http://wolf.readinglitho.co.uk/mainpages/introduction.html
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7374585792978336967&q=%22robert+newman%22
http://www.energybulletin.net/index.php
http://www.relocalize.net/groups/
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Index.html
http://www.communitysolution.org/
http://dieoff.org/
http://www.harpers.org/TheOilWeEat.html
http://groovy.movingtonz.com/type/?p=849
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/bracks-urged-to-think-ahead-as-oil-runs-out/2006/08/26/1156012790180.html
http://www.chicagojournal.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=60&ArticleID=2088&TM=82974.84
http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?view=CN&storyID=2006-08-23T154539Z_01_L23114755_RTRIDST_0_ENERGY-UBS-OIL.XML&rpc=66&type=qcna

A quote from the Groovy.movingtonz.com (http://groovy.movingtonz.com/type/?p=849) site above:
"Two of his questions dealt directly with the psychology of peak oil: 1. Why are people in so much denial? 2. How do I deal with the depression that accompanies this issue? Both of his answers neatly tied in evolution, and the hardwired prioritizing of short term survival over long term survival and the importance of a team mentality. He mentions how people are perfectly willing to believe things that they know are not true, if it increases their chances of short term survival. He gave an example of why the brain has a way of deleting ideas outside the norm:
Bob finds out about Peak Oil in all of its grimness -> Now Bob can’t socialize/network with his coworkers as smoothly and effectively as before because all they talk about is stuff like their Mcmansions, their SUVs, their wives’ boob jobs, their kid’s IPODs, etc. -> Bob is now a less well integrated and effective member of his team -> Bob’s team is now not as effective as before because not everybody is on the same page -> Bob suffers
More importantly, he went on to say that the reason that most people who are interested in the topic of peak oil came to be that way, is because the idea was not outside pre-existing agendas in their minds. It is true, many “peak-oilers” were against pollution, global warming, suburbia, and consumerism. I for one, have always been interested in the topic of “simplifying your life”, and have been reading and researching the subject since my college days. So for me, he may be right on the mark. Other people whose lives are caught up in the rat race, competing to keep up with the Joneses, and the race to accumulate a “bigger everything” may be much harder to convince. For most there is no “advantage” to believing in the coming of peak oil, so the brain deletes the info."

Yep, nothin to worry about here, move along.
Nawwwwwwww.
It's all going to be just fine.
Just keep repeating that.
Don't kill the messenger, friends.

Dances with Mice

08-27-2006, 17:08

Wow, this thread is full of hard-fisted tough-guy know-it-all keyboarders.I LOVE YOU!

We're Number One! We're Number One! We're Number One!

Darwin again

08-27-2006, 17:13

I love you too, Mice! :D

Group hug!!!

The Old Fhart

08-27-2006, 17:23

Rickboudrie(on my having rubidium frequency standards)-"Serious question, OF:Why?"Serious answer: For over 4 decades I've been intrigued with precision time and frequency measurement. I have a crystal standard that has been in continuous operation for 30 years (except for one scheduled battery change) that has an accuracy of parts in 10 to the -11th and that standard was compared to the VLF signal from WWVB (NBS, now NIST). The frequency from this unit is used to calibrate everything from digital scopes, frequency synthesizers, frequency counters, etc. An upgrade to this is the rubidium (secondary atomic) standard tracking the atomic clocks in the GPS system using a specialized GPS receiver originally used to synchronize the time and frequency in cell towers. This raises the accuracy to parts in 10 to the -13th, which translates to maybe a second error in a thousand years. (Don't get me started on "leap seconds", just google to find out what they are!)

As to "why", it is the same reason you hike, or MS and DA complain, or Lone Wolf plays golf, no good reason, it is just something we do.

Oh, and this post is also to help Dances With Mice on his quest to prolong this thread!:D

mweinstone

08-27-2006, 18:28

a,... he is so fuching wit you
b,...most of you would loose in any form of debate against him
and c,...hes just a regular , shy even,.. not political unless you ask,..guy. minnisota smith dosnt hate or even care about folks with opposite veiws unless they are armed and screeming jihad! and he carrys himself in a modern upright position. hes not some throw back from a lesser race. hes the best nature is producing these days. and obviously he has boundless energy to blab. you guys really got him blabbing alot this week. maby its a good thing. hes got some major hiking to do. do you all realize he is an egg head? i mean that in a very loving way. his damn head is so big thats why he cant shut up cause hes really really smart. like dangerously so. i mean the government keeps rooms of these guys around just in case one comes up with a major idea. cause these are the thinkers of our world. minnisota smith collects info like a sponge. he can relate facts to your grandmothers color hair and how that effects geo political climates. the man is a nessesity if our race is to continue. its either turn the world over to his kind,... or justin timberlake. what the fuch did i just write?

Jack Tarlin

08-27-2006, 19:58

rickb

08-27-2006, 20:02

Moose cock is an insult?

Dang, I'm going to have to pare down my christmass card list.

The Old Fhart

08-27-2006, 20:02

Baltimore Jack-"Unless you wanna complete descend to moosecockery."I think I once heard that word on a French quiz show!:D

Topcat

08-27-2006, 20:19

I would certainly prefer someone accused me of moosecockery and not mousecockery, now that is an insult....:-)

weary

08-27-2006, 20:56

....And in closing, I gotta say that MS might be a scientist, and perhaps he's a brilliant one, but that hasn't prevented him from saying some pretty outrageously dumb things here. I like the guy a great deal; if I didn't, I wouldn't have entertained him in my home a few days ago; but honestly, he has said some pretty whacked-out things here. All O.F. did was point this out.....
I'm reminded of the retired professor of mathematics who volunteered to chair a charter committee in my town. He surely was brilliant, so brilliant that no committee member challenged his recommendations.

The problem was he figured he didn't need any research on what works and doesn't work in other towns. In his mind nothing could be simpler than reorganizing a small town's government.

The voters wisely rejected half his proposals, but the rest 15 years later are still messing up our town.

Trails are simple things, but a bit of knowledge still is useful. It's easy to think of improvements; hard to figure out why they haven't been built. But there are hundreds of complicating facts that only people working with the trails, year after year know about.

When MS reaches Maine I'm sure he'll find a lot of things he won't like. Earl Shaffer certainly did. But faced with a Congressional deadline, complaints from landowners that they wanted their old logging road routes back -- logging roads that Myron Avery had usurped to push the trail through Maine 30 years earlier -- and a limited federal budget for land acquisition Maine volunteers relocated two-thirds of the Maine trail in the late 60s, 70s and 80s.

Hindsight tells me we could have done it better. Reality tells me a relatively handful of volunteers produced an amazingly good trail, about as good as was possible given the time and land constraints.

Weary

T-Dubs

08-27-2006, 21:24

.....I got this leftover bottle of Jameson's. So here's an old, old Irish toast: "May you buy the next round".

Another toast, "I'd rather spend money like there's no tomorrow than spend tonight like there's no money"--from the Chris Matthews show.

A friend of mine came back from London recently with a taste for Jameson & Ginger. That has been our summer drink this year so I'll share the celebration.

Tom

fiddlehead

08-27-2006, 21:35

Another toast, "I'd rather spend money like there's no tomorrow than spend tonight like there's no money"--from the Chris Matthews show.

Ah, now i know where "W" get's his inspiration.

Darwin again

08-27-2006, 23:06

Hey Darwin, you're a pretty funny guy.

You get your knickers bunched in a twist over O.F. calling you an "ignoramus", yet in a recent post (in which you amazingly enough boast of your civility as a correspondent), you term selected other WBers "monkeys" and "dickheads."

Ya know, when I was growin' up in Boston, "dickhead" usually wasn't exactly a term of enderment.

So what's up with your jumping on O.F.? People that insult other people usuallly get it back in spades, no? So lighten up.

I must say, tho, that I enjoyed your use of the marvellous "dickheadedness."

It's actually the sort of word that I might use.

However, pleasantries aside, your peevishness towards O.F. is a bit over the top, considering your own colorful descriptions of folks you disagree with it.

So give it a rest for a bit, hmmmm?

Unless you wanna complete descend to moosecockery.

His continued poking is a bit over the top as well, so I merely maintained my prerogative for self defense.
This whole thing is already a complete moosecockup.

I challenged him to a duel and he chickened out. :(
I consider the matter closed.

There'll be no further descending, thanks very much. I dare not be held responsible for the condition of this thread. Such as it is.

Nean

08-27-2006, 23:36

Nean said: That's cool MS, so,what are you going to do about it? :confused:

I'll find within me (strength, endurance, intelligence) what it takes to get through that section of the Trail, as I have done for over 1400 miles of the AT so far this year. What else would I do? I have set for myself hiking every mile of the AT this year, and I don't quit a goal easily once I undertake it.

I'm sorry that I was not clear with my question.:o I was curious as to wether or not you would be doing something besides complain and walk by these stupid places?:confused:
A couple of years back there was an 8 year old little girl doing the trail with her family. You complain more in one post than she did on the entire trail. Surely MS, if a little girl can hike the trail w/o crying, you can suck it up and show a little gumption. Think of your forefathers, for cryin out loud.:eek:
I wish you well w/ your goal, those lofty numbers impress me. Why not make it a goal to make the trail a better place, since you have a problem with it? It seems to me that a man w/ your credentials would be spouting solutions, not tears.

fiddlehead

08-28-2006, 00:27

would someone please clue me in on these "credentials"???
I'm sorry i'd rather not read thru thru the 72 pages of this thread to find out what Nean is referring to.

Heater

08-28-2006, 01:00

There's a fundamental conflict between thru hikers and most maintainers. Maintainers tend to be weekend hikers working on the trails they love. The goal of a weekender is a challenging day and a half hike. They don't want an easy trail, but a trail that will challenge them, and show them some secret beauty spots.
Weary

Isn't that what blue blazes are for?

SGT Rock

08-28-2006, 02:07

Blue Blazes are to take you places the trail doesn't go for whatever reason. It could be becasue you cannot route a two direction trail out to a cliff or the other trail takes you 300 miles out of your way to see other things. Blue Blazers accept each trail for what it is and take whatever they want to see whatever they feel like seeing. The AT can make it to some great sites, but apparently most thru-hikers find them a bore after a few weeks and only want to make miles. I've heard more than one thru-hiker say: "if you have seen one view, you have seen them all" and more than one say "why put the trail over here? It only makes the trail longer." IMO people that think that way seem to have lost the spirit of what backpackinig is about, it isn't a rush to get to the next town, it is a chance to stay out of them.

Heater

08-28-2006, 02:15

This raises the accuracy to parts in 10 to the -13th, which translates to maybe a second error in a thousand years. :D

When was the first error? :-? :)

SGT Rock

08-28-2006, 03:20

Trails are simple things, but a bit of knowledge still is useful. It's easy to think of improvements; hard to figure out why they haven't been built. But there are hundreds of complicating facts that only people working with the trails, year after year know about.

When MS reaches Maine I'm sure he'll find a lot of things he won't like. Earl Shaffer certainly did. But faced with a Congressional deadline, complaints from landowners that they wanted their old logging road routes back -- logging roads that Myron Avery had usurped to push the trail through Maine 30 years earlier -- and a limited federal budget for land acquisition Maine volunteers relocated two-thirds of the Maine trail in the late 60s, 70s and 80s.

Hindsight tells me we could have done it better. Reality tells me a relatively handful of volunteers produced an amazingly good trail, about as good as was possible given the time and land constraints.

Weary

As usual, Weary is a wise old guy with long term institutional knowledge about these things that I am glad I can benefit from. Thanks again Weary.

If I may "witness" as they say in the Southern Baptist Churches...

For a while now I have been saying how much I hope the ATC recognizes the BMT as an alternate route that qualifies hikers as 2,000 milers. I figured it was better for the AT in the long run if other trails start to take some of the impact off the AT. Now I am starting to really re-think my position because I don't want to see the other trails that could possibly become a part of this system co-copted into the AT style of trail. It would be a shame for these trails to loose their character.

I've hiked a good portion of the AT and I have hiked a lot of other trails besides the AT. The AT is one flavor of trail. IMO and experience it is over groomed, over marked, over signed, over developed, and has many many more amenities than it actually needs. Other trails I've hiked go 50 miles before you find a shelter if any at all. There are not signs or blazed trails pointing to every water hole, there is not always an 18" minimum tread-way with brush cut to a 36" width. Most other trails I have hiked don't have signs telling you on a regular basis where you are and how much further it is to the next road crossing, shelter, or whatever. To tell the truth I like a trail with LESS rather than MORE...

Back to my point, I often wish the AT was more like other trails, and that is why I wanted the BMT to be recognized officially as an alternate trail to the AT for 2,000 milers. This way others that think like me could go that way and still be able to put in for their patch at the end of it all without feeling cheated. But as I was planning my thru-hike and working on my trip plan, I started thinking about some of the complaints we at the BMTA have gotten about some sections of the BMT already. The need more signs, more blazing, more shelters, etc. If more AT hikers went on the BMT, then the BMT could turn into what the AT is instead of being the trail I love.

For instance: A guy complained about the section where I maintain that he got lost and considers that as an experienced hiker that the trail is not marked well enough. I know that is poppycock because I am also an experienced hiker and found that section more than easy to navigate on the first time I ever went there even without any sort of trail guide or new map. Then I realized if this guy had only ever hiked the AT or trails like it, he could be screwed up because it doesn't spell it out for him like the AT does.

See, hikers don't always know that there are issues behind each of these problems or decisions when building a trail. They often don't even know what is best for a trail, only what they prefer in a trail. And that is fine, unless they then want to turn a trail into what it is not. If they don't like that trail, there are hundreds more out there that may be what they want. It would be selfish to want the AT to become what you want simply because you want it. That would be like wanting Michelangelo's David to put some clothes on because you don't like naked men.

Some places on the BMT are mandated as wilderness so you can't build structures or even put up blazes. Some places are on private property and you are only given a certain amount of privileges as to what you can do. Some places are road walks because you have to cross some private lands and that is the best you can get. I am sure the AT builders had to put up with this as well. Weary points this out as the truth because he has been around long enough to remember some of the compromises they had to make.

As a hiker I have learned to accept each trail for what it is and each trail for the flavor it presented in the area it occupies. The Pinhoti for example has places where there is no trail and no blazes - just stay on the ridge line through this field or whatever. The Wild Azalea Trail spends a lot of time in mosquito infested swamps. You either love it for that, or you quit going back.

To get to the end of this rant, instead of trying to change a trail to make it what it isn't, you should accept the trail for what it is. Trying to change a trail to suit yourself is like trying to change the weather to suit yourself. As many hikers already know, it is wise to learn to accept the weather and live with things - it makes you a much happier person. Minnesota Smith, as a scientist, is probably programed to solve problems and thinks he has to solve these "problems" with the trail. The fact is there is no real problem. It just is. And learning to accept the trail for what is instead of complaining about what it is not is best for your hike. And in the end, if that trail doesn't suit you, go find one that does and don't try to screw it up for others.

MedicineMan

08-28-2006, 05:32

I think the move from ATconference to ATconservancy is an initial move to ATtrailSconservancy with the emphasis on trailS...that eventualy all the trails in the 'system' will be under their control/guidance....this especially including the Great Eastern Trail and all the tributaries that connect to it ....my stance remains, use any of the trails in the system to get to katahdin, the more varied the route the better, pick and choose the route based on what you want, for some that would be the BMT to Davenport Gap and for others the Tuscorora through PA (though i dont think any trail will save you from the PA rocks) and in time some may use the Great Eastern Trail through Kentucky then over to Burkes Garden......variety is a good thing.

Dances with Mice

08-28-2006, 06:39

would someone please clue me in on these "credentials"???
I'm sorry i'd rather not read thru thru the 72 pages of this thread to find out what Nean is referring to.That's why I hope you and others will join me in creating the MS Thread Conservancy. We hope to protect the MS Thread for future generations and to enhance the MS Thread experience with signposts and markers to guide beginning readers or 'day-readers' through the MS Thread wilderness. We'll be issuing a Guide to the MS Thread and building a series of shelters along the thread's length where Thru-Readers can rest.

The Old Fhart

08-28-2006, 06:46

Darwin again-"I challenged him to a duel and he chickened out." Ah yes, a duel. The last resort of the intellectially bankrupt! You already fought and lost your "duel" on these pages.:D

mweinstone

08-28-2006, 08:22

i just got the call . he quit. no further information is available about,.. minnisota smith.except this,...... just in to our news desk,..... not quitting.........wait a moment please,.... we have confirmation that minnisota smith is well on his way to maine and that the earlier reports of him quitting were false and eronious. once again for those of our veiwers who might just be joining us,.. minisota smith has not quit. we now return you to your regularly schedualed program(as the world of lead and aspestose turns) allready in progress.

Darwin again

08-28-2006, 10:30

Ah yes, a duel. The last resort of the intellectially bankrupt! You already fought and lost your "duel" on these pages.:D

There you go again...

You've got to lay off the Oxycontin, Fhart. That should help you with the chat thread Tourettes syndrome.

Bugger off, please.

(BAWK! BAWK!)

mweinstone

08-28-2006, 16:21

except minnisota smith. he will be safe on the trail. but everyone else will die. from not being on the trail. that is all.

Dances with Mice

08-28-2006, 18:05

Photo by SteveM

MS & BJ.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h299/raystern/Minnesota%20Smith%20Photos/MSB1.jpg

Mother's Finest

08-28-2006, 18:44

two college town hippies......loving life....

that is a positive description (coming from me, though smith may not take it as such)

peace
mf

and matty--nobody is doing any dieing around here......except maybe eggs

Dances with Mice

08-28-2006, 18:51

two college town hippies......loving life....Someone else's comments: "Luke & Yoda".

Messenger shoot not you will.

ed bell

08-28-2006, 18:54

Photo by SteveM

MS & BJ.He looks dangerously close to unshaven. I'm still bitter about the facial hair comments MS. I'm watching you.:D

Skidsteer

08-28-2006, 18:59

I still think MS bears a striking resemblance to a young Truman Capote in a Seattle Sombrero. ;)

Lone Wolf

08-28-2006, 19:02

I still think MS bears a striking resemblance to a young Truman Capote in a Seattle Sombrero. ;)
Oh Jesus! Here we go. Truman was a flamer, no? whinestein is gonna flutter now.:D

celt

08-28-2006, 19:23

thruhikers (which I am doing my best to become) electrify the imagination of the public about the AT in a way that a retiree spending occasional weekends with pruning shears on part of the AT near where he lives never will. We attract no end of interest to it

Take a step back from yourself and you'll see thru hikers inspiring many different attitudes . Some have an inflated sense of self-worth or entitlement (often a result of thru hiking) and are infuriating to be around and inspire undeserved hatred towards other thru hikers. Some trail workers feel this way. But its just as glib to say all thru hikers are self important bores as it is to say all maintainers are shear wielding retirees. Personally I prefer a sharp axe, I'm 37 ("I'm not old...") and I do it for a living. As for my thru hiker persona: I'm not sure what it might be, but I know I don't share my opinions on on-line forums because I'm a trail worker...

Dances with Mice

08-28-2006, 19:27

I still think MS bears a striking resemblance to a young Truman Capote in a Seattle Sombrero. I'm partial to hats myself. I think it makes him look quite distinguished. Senatorial (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.constitutioncenter.org/timeline/flash/assets/asset_upload_file747_12327.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.constitutioncenter.org/timeline/html/cw12_12327.html&h=320&w=320&sz=15&hl=en&start=19&tbnid=IsIa53J4_1m2BM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbella%2Babzug%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den% 26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN), even.

warren doyle

08-28-2006, 19:34

Skidsteer

08-28-2006, 19:37

I'm partial to hats myself. I think it makes him look quite distinguished. Senatorial (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.constitutioncenter.org/timeline/flash/assets/asset_upload_file747_12327.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.constitutioncenter.org/timeline/html/cw12_12327.html&h=320&w=320&sz=15&hl=en&start=19&tbnid=IsIa53J4_1m2BM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbella%2Babzug%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den% 26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN), even.

:D Damn, that was funny!

Just Jeff

08-28-2006, 19:45

One has to adapt to the trail (not the other way around).

I have a feeling MS would take the Ayn Rand approach and say this is pure hogwash. Just a guess.

Jack Tarlin

08-28-2006, 20:41

2178 miles??

According to the ATC, this year the Trail is 2174.6 miles in length.

Whatever.

Skyline

08-28-2006, 21:21

greentick

08-28-2006, 21:46

"why put the trail over here? It only makes the trail longer." IMO people that think that way seem to have lost the spirit of what backpackinig is about, it isn't a rush to get to the next town, it is a chance to stay out of them.

AMEN Brother Rock!

napster

08-28-2006, 21:49

He use to carry his h2o in a three gallon sack

smush endangered specie in a stealth pick flat

he never even learned to sleep right on the trail

but he made it to Katadin and spent YOUR money real well

oh go oh go minnesotasmith!

I must say I never judge a man till I have walked in his shoes and meet him man to man.I told my wife before we got married that if we ever disagree on sumthing didnt nessessary mean we had to dislike one another.I wish I could have thru hiked the AT this year.Walk on Minnesota! Walk on. . .

Lugnut

08-28-2006, 22:35

2178 miles??

According to the ATC, this year the Trail is 2174.6 miles in length.

Whatever.

Picky, picky,picky. :rolleyes: Who would want to argue over 3.4 miles. :-?

Jack Tarlin

08-28-2006, 22:45

Calm yourself, Lug.

Nobody's arguing.

It's just that when the alleged world authority on the Trail shows up here to share his wisdom with us, you'd kinda think he'd know how long the Trail was, no? :rolleyes:

SGT Rock

08-29-2006, 00:34

Interesting thread.
One has to adapt to the trail (not the other way around).
I love molding myself to the varying contours/changes in elevation of the trail.
The trail doesn't exist for me; I exist for the trail and it has always given me more than I have given it.
It is a 2,178 mile dance with pleasing, ever-changing rhythms.
It helps me define my place in this world and has never let me down.

Good philosophy. I agree almost totally. I never fell that I exist for the trail, I have other things I exist for like my wife and kids ;)

But I do like adapting to it and accepting it for what it is and dealing with that on the trail's terms.

Thanks Warren.

SGT Rock

08-29-2006, 00:37

Take a step back from yourself and you'll see thru hikers inspiring many different attitudes . Some have an inflated sense of self-worth or entitlement (often a result of thru hiking) and are infuriating to be around and inspire undeserved hatred towards other thru hikers. Some trail workers feel this way. But its just as glib to say all thru hikers are self important bores as it is to say all maintainers are shear wielding retirees. Personally I prefer a sharp axe, I'm 37 ("I'm not old...") and I do it for a living. As for my thru hiker persona: I'm not sure what it might be, but I know I don't share my opinions on on-line forums because I'm a trail worker...

Great post celt.

While not a full time trail worker like you, I am also not a retired shear wielding weekend hiker. I am 39 and prefer a machettee.

Any other young trail maintainers out there? Also, since he says we are not long distance section hikers or thru-hikers - are there any that do this as well and also maintain trail too?

emerald

08-29-2006, 01:22

One has to adapt to the trail (not the other way around).

I believe I've heard Warren describe what I quoted and what immediately followed it as "flowing" with the trail. That's what crossed my mind too as I was reading MinnesotaSmith's posts over the weekend.

I mentioned to someone recently that some people seem to want to hike something other than the actual A.T. that exists only in their own minds. It seems to me that kind of thinking makes hiking it far more difficult than it needs to be.

Accept the trail as it is, don't fight it MinnesotaSmith, unless you prefer hiking that way.:-?

fiddlehead

08-29-2006, 01:35

For some strange reason (at least to me) people would rather complain than praise things in their life. I have seen this in books about the trail, videos about the trail, and in lots of discussions here on this website. I guess it's a trick of nature or from our social upbringings, i don't know?
It's rare to find a video or book that continually praises the trail rather than talk about it's hardships. Is it because perhaps the writers or video people would rather others not hike it? Or maybe they are looking for pity? If anyone has any clues to this phenomenon (sp?) i would like to know why this is?
Perhaps there's something i missed in Socialology class? (like how to spell it for one)

Just Jeff

08-29-2006, 02:24

The human mind is wired to conquer challenges. That's what keeps us alive. So when we're uncomfortable, figuring out a way to "fix" it is an evolutionary imperative. But in today's urban society we don't need to actually fix things...we can just complain about it while we go buy a new one. Only you can't buy a new trail so we're just left with complaining. That's my theory, anyway!

I bet an AT book that was all praise, and didn't speak a word about overcoming challenges, wouldn't be very interesting. And surely wouldn't sell enough for a publisher to pick it up. Now - if we could convince some folks that the best way to "fix it" is to just stay inside if they're gonna complain all the time, the rest of us could enjoy it even more!

fiddlehead

08-29-2006, 02:29

I guess maybe it's why movies like "Kill Bill" are more popular than a John Candy movie or most comedys. Making someone feel happy or laugh seems to be worth a lot less than having them look at torture or death. Not to me, but obviously (looking at gross profits) to most.

Lone Wolf

08-29-2006, 06:40

Lone Wolf

08-29-2006, 06:46

warren doyle

08-29-2006, 07:39

Not necessarily so, L. Wolf.

Check out "Circle of Dreams" - the video documentary of the 1990 Appalachian Trail Circle Expedition (i.e., the 'PBS'/'NPR' of AT videos).

And thanks for once again pointing out the obvious in your other recent post.

Skyline

08-29-2006, 10:59

So true. The first AT vid, 5 Million Steps(Complaints), was a pure whine fest. The rest that follow are the same.

Well there's describing hardships, giving them their due along with all the good stuff--and then there's W-H-I-N-I-N-G. Are all AT videos really created alike?

Perhaps the better question would be: Are all AT hikers created alike? Some go with the flow, some whine every day, all day. But even those who go with the flow acknowledge occasional hardships. Someone with a perpetual smile on his face 24/7 probably needs to be drug-tested. :-)

bfitz

08-29-2006, 12:15

Someone with a perpetual smile on his face 24/7 probably needs to be drug-tested. :-)
Zip a dee doo da....:p

SGT Rock

08-29-2006, 12:33

Yes, come to think of it, my two sons are trail maintainers and they started at 15 and 7. Of course they are only weekend backpackers yet.

MOWGLI

08-29-2006, 15:02

Help me out here. I was gone for almost 3 weeks. Did MS skip up to NH? I can't imagine he reached Hanover from New York in less than 3 weeks.

the goat

08-29-2006, 15:17

Help me out here. I was gone for almost 3 weeks. Did MS skip up to NH? I can't imagine he reached Hanover from New York in less than 3 weeks.

yup, he YELLOW-BLAZED!!! and now he's SLACKPACKING!!!!:eek: :eek: :D

Lone Wolf

08-29-2006, 15:18

yup, he YELLOW-BLAZED!!! and now he's SLACKPACKING!!!!:eek: :eek: :D
You be a s**t stirrer!:D

the goat

08-29-2006, 15:25

You be a s**t stirrer!:D

tis one of my many talents!:D

ed bell

08-29-2006, 16:39

yup, he YELLOW-BLAZED!!! and now he's SLACKPACKING!!!!:eek: :eek: :DI'll bet his ears are burning. MS is a little, shall we say, uncomfortable with the term "yellowblaze". I believe him 100% when he says he will go back and pick up the mileage he skipped, but he refuses to call his jump foreward "yellowblazing".

mweinstone

08-29-2006, 17:13

so,.........non of you work.nice............

Nean

08-29-2006, 17:29

I'll bet his ears are burning. MS is a little, shall we say, uncomfortable with the term "yellowblaze". I believe him 100% when he says he will go back and pick up the mileage he skipped, but he refuses to call his jump foreward "yellowblazing".

It isn't yellowblazing until you say you finished, and didn't.:-?
I was a maintainer for over a year; don't know about young, but I feel 23;) .............every night.:eek: :D I've done most of my trail work while hiking though. Everyday on the trail is an opportunity to make it better. I've always been amazed at how many hikers will walk around a limb (100s) that takes seconds at the most to remove. Or trash, or etc. And then complain!

ed bell

08-29-2006, 17:49

It isn't yellowblazing until you say you finished, and didn't.:-?
That must be the reason he gets defensive about it. He has put a ton of work into his hike this year and I hope he achieves his goal.:sun

zuluhartzbackpack

08-29-2006, 18:06

he was slacking outta the hostle... doing a 9 mile day

mweinstone

08-29-2006, 18:26

with your girlfriend.......he was doin a zero.

Cedar Tree

08-29-2006, 18:57

with your girlfriend.......he was doin a zero.

I doubt you've actually seen her. I mean surely to goodness the guy is not dating a zero. She must be at least a 3 or 4.

CT

mweinstone

08-29-2006, 19:30

ive lost my flair. im having a writters cramp. i may be forced to take some time off and come up with some new matirial.im just not gettin any laughs. i thaught if i did some negitive comments it might get me started. but thats never been my style. i need to berate in an engraciating way. im telling you ive lost my touch .its the irs. there upseting my humor gland. see,............humor gland,..........thats dead,..........i got nodda.

general

08-29-2006, 19:35

Down with shelters! Who is with me?

i'm with you SGT Rock. shelters suck.

and Minnesota Smith, if you wanted all the creature comforts of home on the trail, why didn't you just stay at home? you're like the all the folks that move from the city to the country, and then want gated subdivisions and paved roads. ***, why not just stay in the city and not bring all that city crap to those of us in the country that want the country to stay just how it is? the trail is wilderness. if you provide a home away from home every 6 to 12 miles then what's the point? it ain't supposed to be easy. if it were, everyone would do it and it wouldn't be special to anyone now would it? dude, if you wanna go home, call it quits, go home, and be happy. and get this, it's not up to you to decide how the trail should be. it is there for you to use in all of it's splendor. you either like it as it is or don't hike on it. there are folks who are much smarter and well versed in trail issues than you that make those decisions. do you think they give a rats ass that you don't like how the trail is laid out or maintained. get real.

general

08-29-2006, 19:40

:eek: dickheadedness???? :banana

that's the disease that caused ***edupedness.

saimyoji

08-29-2006, 19:44

Delivered by the moosecock :D

mweinstone

08-29-2006, 19:59

and why are you guys so cocky? i understand one of you is a dickhead and one is a moosecock,.. but after that im lost. now,... where is he please dances?

Dances with Mice

08-29-2006, 20:28

Mr. Smith has now passed the six month anniversary of being on the Trail fulltime. If he really missed the creature comforts of civilization, or hated what he's doing, he would have aborted his hike long ago. He's out there living his dream. Along the way he's dealt with extremes of cold, heat, floods, drought and bugs and is now dealing with the Whites. Just like every other hiker. And like every other hiker he's got a few gripes about this'n'that.

Six months is a long time. I tried to see him off at Springer but my van got stuck in the snow on the way to meet him. Now it's almost Labor Day and he's taken no long breaks or vacations from the Trail. When he's done he will have hiked in all four seasons. The good parts of the Trail must far outweigh the bad because if he thought it was too much to handle he'd be back already. But he's not coming back until he's done and you know I'm willing to bet on it.

Nobody dwells much on the thanks he's given to those who've helped him along the way, but he's very sincerely acknowledged the help he's gotten.

It's his hike. Each hiker seems to have a few complaints, maybe about different subjects than he's chosen but that's really a difference in style rather than substance. He's hiking his hike. Isn't that what everyone says he should be doing?